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1 minute ago, laser 173312 said:

Sorry to say I can't see that, given that GGYC had so much hassle with San Fran. council they had to take the event to Bermuda. Why would St. Francis want to win the cup knowing it probably couldn't host a defence at home. 

Of course this opens up a whole new can of worms what with the Auckland Italy situation.

I am sure there are many issues that would prevent a Challenge representing St. Francis from joining AC36, but I'd think dealing with SF Government in regards to defending in SF would be way down on that list.  Also, the issues Oracle had with SF revolved around Larry Ellison the man and not so much GGYC if I remember correctly.  It shouldn't be assumed that St. Francis would have the same issues.  Having said that, SF locals on here would be better to comment on this than me.  I am going off what I remember from 4+ years ago.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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44 minutes ago, WetHog said:

As far as left coast challenge potential, what about Manouch Moshayedi and Rio?  Know nothing about him or Rio, just remember TE talking about the Pac52 and I went on that site and looked for a left coast team and I found Rio. 

Good eye, he must be a possibility.

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Thomas Siebel that debuted his J-boat Svea at AC35?  He has been big boating the last 5 years, is a member of St. Francis as well, was a Palin supporter and survived a pretty bad elephant attack. He will fit right in with the Devos family.  Also, I will fight the nickname urge in the random ass chance he frequents this site.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I'd look more at Page or Siebel...

Page is worth probably $40B today but while Siebel has a tenth of that, and still more than twice that of anyone else currently on the AC36 horizon, he has 100 times the yachting passion of Page. Go Tom!

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On 9/27/2017 at 6:22 PM, Team_GBR said:

So, Mr Huston, let's see if i get this right. You confirm DdR is not trying to get a Dutch AC campaign together, which is exactly what I said. My reasoning was that he couldn't because he is toxic to sponsors and doesn't have the experience. You don't counter that, so we can agree. The only bone of contention is whether he had any interest in getting a Volvo campaign together. You say he didn't but he did consider watch captain, I say he made some effort to explore the possibilities and dropped it.You make a big deal out of it all when really we aren't that far apart and agree on the key point, DdR is not trying to get a Dutch challenge for the AC together.

None of that addresses the biggest issue, the fact he is a convicted cheat and no sponsor would touch him. Good luck to him getting jobs as a mainsheet trimmer. He has done his time and therefore should be allowed to work without issue, but he stands no chance of getting a gig where he needs to be high profile and where sponsors are involved. From the sounds of it, he knows that and isn't trying to

You seem to iive in some fantasy land of knowing what people want to do, or not want to do.

You really don't seem to know much about Dirk, because you don't seem to know the boats for which he trims main.  I can't be bothered to educate you either because you are just a troll hiding behind a screen name, meaning you have no balls.  

How does it feel to go through life trashing people from behind a screen name?  Feel like a big man, do you?

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On 9/26/2017 at 6:43 PM, Team_GBR said:

As usual, you are way off base. If you cannot see the difference between trimming mainsheet, sailing on a boat or any of the other things that you say he is doing and fronting an AC team, you are even more removed from the reality of sailing than i thought. 

Sorry, i forgot that he was on the DoG boat, but if you think that trimming a wing on that and on the AC72 qualifies him for running an AC team, again, you are detached from reality.

If he had no time for a Volvo campaign, why did he approach one of my closest friends to see if he could use his name as part of a potential team as a watch captain? Maybe him telling you (if he ever did) that it wasn't something he aspires to was his way of rationalising the fact he could not have got a deal together. 

I know you are the patron saint of lost causes, fighting injustice real or imaginary in the world of sailing, but your man was a cheat. That didn't just come from the people who you have a personal vendetta against, such as ISAF and all the members of the IJ. CAS concluded that as well. Remember how they described him and how reliable the found his testimony? Oh, I forgot. They were all in on the conspiracy - ISAF, the IJ, CAS and everybody else all conspired to make DdR a scapegoat when he had done nothing wrong. It wears a bit thin. Your theories became ridiculous once you included CAS in the whole conspiracy.

I love the part about you saying I am the patron saint of lost causes.  Seems that helping Farrah Hall was hardly a lost cause, because eventually she prevailed against US Sailing at USOC, and US Sailing was forced to reform as a result.  

And what utter pleasure I took yesterday when I saw Clean's post about Charlie Cook, US Sailing lawyer who was paid $250k to defend - and lose the case against Farrah, but who lost others too for US Sailing.  Cook was the PRO for the 2008 Olympics, a Senior Judge, and involved with lots of ISAF committees, and was really a serious force inside ISAF for a long time.  Imagine my delight when I saw Cook was indicted for money launder for a sex trafficking ring.  He was such a scummy lawyer, who tried to rig the US Sailing system against Farrah, with the help of ISAF, especially via Jerome Pels, it was a serious vindication to see Cook indicted for such a heinous crime.  

 

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38 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

Australia is on the brink of a pretty good recession and all the punters with money know this.

Because they waste too much money on ridiculous plebiscites.

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Because they waste too much money on ridiculous plebiscites.

yep they just should have made civil partnership a federal law years ago, nobody would have complained and this conversation wasnt needed

Yet Australia was one of the first in the world to add 3rd gender to passports, some things modern some not?

What I want to know is which tee does caitlan jenner now use?

 

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4 hours ago, Sailabout said:

Yet Australia was one of the first in the world to add 3rd gender to passports, some things modern some not?

3rd gender?  To bad Darwin isn't around to witness this signficant milestone in Human evolution.  :mellow:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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16 hours ago, WetHog said:

3rd gender?  To bad Darwin isn't around to witness this signficant milestone in Human evolution.  :mellow:

WetHog  :ph34r:

Yup. People can call themselves men, women or apache attack helicopters and if you point out the truth to them,  then you are hateful and bigoted. 

I for one am totally over the situation where feelings are more important than the truth.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

I hope PJ is wrong about spinnakers going up and down .. I was looking forward to apparent wind racers.

Whitmarsh is expecting more technically advanced monohulls than what some are. Part of what he said yesterday is at 21:00 of this video

https://mobile.twitter.com/landroveritalia/status/916344212639039488

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On 10/5/2017 at 5:30 PM, ~Stingray~ said:

Page is worth probably $40B today but while Siebel has a tenth of that, and still more than twice that of anyone else currently on the AC36 horizon, he has 100 times the yachting passion of Page. Go Tom!

I guess you don't know about Larry's foiling catamaran then

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3 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I guess you don't know about Larry's foiling catamaran then

A G4? Has he ever even been on it? 

Wouldn't Jim Clark be a more likely SF AC  possibility?

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10 hours ago, jaysper said:

Yup. People can call themselves men, women or apache attack helicopters and if you point out the truth to them,  then you are hateful and bigoted. 

I for one am totally over the situation where feelings are more important than the truth.

Truth is an abstract construct, so you might as well try to not let it bug you. Why do I care what other people think the are? I know what I am, as I suspect you know what you are..

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8 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

A G4? Has he ever even been on it? 

Wouldn't Jim Clark be a more likely SF AC  possibility?

Clark could be a possibility but I'm told he isn't involved at all right now.

As for the F4...extensively.  Boat's in here somewhere.

 

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2 hours ago, buckdouger said:

Truth is an abstract construct, so you might as well try to not let it bug you. Why do I care what other people think the are? I know what I am, as I suspect you know what you are..

Except now they don't want equality,  they want special treatment. 

Their own toilets, etc.

I'm more than happy for everyone to be treated equally,  but that's not what they're after. Not by a long shot. 

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30 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Clark could be a possibility but I'm told he isn't involved at all right now.

As for the F4...extensively.  Boat's in here somewhere.

 

Really good video, great boats and info. But I never heard Page mentioned among the various names and the only Tag said Kahn.

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On 10/7/2017 at 1:17 AM, WetHog said:

3rd gender?  To bad Darwin isn't around to witness this signficant milestone in Human evolution.  :mellow:

WetHog  :ph34r:

Indeed. But then science was never about feelings.

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18 hours ago, jaysper said:

Yup. People can call themselves men, women or apache attack helicopters and if you point out the truth to them,  then you are hateful and bigoted. 

I for one am totally over the situation where feelings are more important than the truth.

They might be offended by your attitude.

They have a perfect right to be offended.

That's their issue. They need to stop being a snowflake sand harden up a bit. 

I have the right to not care if they're offended.

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With all my reservations about the guy, nobody denies Vincenzo Onorato's a very good sailor in the traditional, boat owner sense: Mascalzone Latino, currently a Cookson 50, just won on corrected time the Hong Kong to Viet Nam race - and the crew he put together is very good too. Don't know if they will be entering other races shortly, but for sure they'll be doing the StoHo

 

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21 hours ago, Xlot said:

With all my reservations about the guy, nobody denies Vincenzo Onorato's a very good sailor in the traditional, boat owner sense: Mascalzone Latino, currently a Cookson 50, just won on corrected time the Hong Kong to Viet Nam race - and the crew he put together is very good too. Don't know if they will be entering other races shortly, but for sure they'll be doing the StoHo

 

Nah.  He called some Commodore a snail or something to that affect.  He is not qualified to head a Challenge for AC36.  ;) 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

Nah.  He called some Commodore a snail or something to that affect.  He is not qualified to head a Challenge for AC36.  ;) 

WetHog  :ph34r:

You completely missed the real problem. He was caught flat out cheating (on behalf of his son so that's ok?) and they wouldn't let him into the regatta, he abused one of the organising committee. So you want a cheat and poor sport running a team?

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30 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

You completely missed the real problem. He was caught flat out cheating (on behalf of his son so that's ok?) and they wouldn't let him into the regatta, he abused one of the organising committee. So you want a cheat and poor sport running a team?

Sure, why not?  Would bring excellent drama to the AC.  

EB got caught cheating as the Defender of the AC and some on here would love to see him back in Auckland for AC36.  Whats the difference?  EB didn't call a Commodore a snail?  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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The AC isn't the place for the shy and dainty. Gaming the rules has become an art form. Hell it's even got to the stage where agreeing rules that you think will place the more straight laced at a disadvantage while you can already see a way round the wording is in the game.

VO belongs there.

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

Sure, why not?  Would bring excellent drama to the AC.  

EB got caught cheating as the Defender of the AC and some on here would love to see him back in Auckland for AC36.  Whats the difference?  EB didn't call a Commodore a snail?  

WetHog  :ph34r:

If you cannot see the difference between what EB and VO did there is no hope. VO had a boat altered so it was no longer in class trying to gain an advantage over the rest of the fleet and spat the dummy when he was caught and not allowed to compete (his rant was far more than calling somebody a snail). IMO, the level of cheating well exceeded OR's lead in the dolphin striker. This was an attempt to give his son and unfair advantage to help him win a world championships. I believe a high percentage of the fleet involved believe he should receive further sanction for his action and I know there are some who want him banned from the class.I cannot abide cheats, but worse, cheats who then fire up and behave badly when caught. Even the AC doesn't need that sort of drama.

Just to clarify the difference between OR cheating and VO cheating. In the case of OR, where I don't think we ever got to the bottom of the problem, the one thing I am sure of is that Larry Ellison was not in on the cheating. In the case of VO, we have an owner who was very much involved with the cheating. He made the decision to send the boat to a renowned keel profiler when the class rules are clear and everybody knows it is not allowed. Do we want owners in the AC who encourage and arrange for a team to cheat?

My personal opinion is that VO should be banned from the sport for a year, because of all his actions in this case. Each on their own might be excused, but all together, I don't want to race against people like that and I don't think we should have to. 

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I made no comparison to Onorato and Oracle.  I made a comparison to Ernesto Bertarelli and Onorato.  And whatever VO did it sounds like its on par with what EB did with CNEV, IMO.  Although I don't think EB ever called Uncle Larry a snail.  At least not on the record.  :lol:  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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17 hours ago, WetHog said:

I made no comparison to Onorato and Oracle.  I made a comparison to Ernesto Bertarelli and Onorato.  And whatever VO did it sounds like its on par with what EB did with CNEV, IMO.  Although I don't think EB ever called Uncle Larry a snail.  At least not on the record.  :lol:  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Not only with CNEV, but also on with the incident on the committee boat at race 2. This was mutiny, and I still think that was worth a Rule 69 case.

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4 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Not only with CNEV, but also on with the incident on the committee boat at race 2. This was mutiny, and I still think that was worth a Rule 69 case.

Yeah, led by EB's BFF:

2cf2u5c.jpg

2dahxk4.jpg

rici7o.jpg

Real winners.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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26 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Who is that?

The guy with the winter hat is Harold Bennett.  EBs BFF Nicolas Grange is wearing his orange Okalys-Corum team hat. 

2uojrd1.jpg

WetHog  :ph34r:

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9 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Not only with CNEV, but also on with the incident on the committee boat at race 2. This was mutiny, and I still think that was worth a Rule 69 case.

Well, if ever there was a case that warranted rule 69, this was it IMO.

Far worse than the Orifice Kingpost-gate incident, because in this case there is no possible doubt about the intent and generally the incident just smelt REALLY bad.

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

The guy with the winter hat is Harold Bennett.  EBs BFF Nicolas Grange is wearing his orange Okalys-Corum team hat. 

2uojrd1.jpg

WetHog  :ph34r:

Nicolas Grange, Loïck Peyron, and Okalys team at the time they were competing against Ernesto.

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7 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Nicolas Grange, Loïck Peyron, and Okalys team at the time they were competing against Ernesto.

The team still is, minus Peyron, according to the D35 website.  I just used that picture to match up the orange hat and to show the Peyron connection as well.  The picture was taken in 2010 after a D35 regatta which took place after AC33.

Seperate topic, anyone recognize the belt buckle Grange is wearing in this picture?   He is wearing it in this 2010 picture but also is wearing it in a picture on his company website, so he likes it.  

https://www.grange.ch/

Just curious.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Interesting: In the latest interview ( 21 September Written by Ben Gladwell) with James Spithill the following was said:

"What is the future of ORACLE Team USA?

Larry [Ellison] wants to wait until the rules and the protocol comes out."

https://www.redbull.com/au-en/jimmy-spithill-interview

Protocol is out since last month. Guess Larry waits until the final version is issued.

 

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10 hours ago, jaysper said:

Well, if ever there was a case that warranted rule 69, this was it IMO.

 

 

Bad behaviour indeed but this is what "normal" RRS says and I think that is what applied in AC33.

69.1 Obligation not to Commit Gross Misconduct
(a) A competitor shall not commit gross misconduct, including a
gross breach of a rule, good manners or sportsmanship, or
conduct bringing the sport into disrepute. Throughout rule 69,
‘competitor’ means a member of the crew, or the owner, of a
boat.

 

There's no rule 69 application to someone going on strike on a committee boat. Potentially EB if he was on the committee boat but he was not. The last RRS AC rule 69 was worded differently and the range of people to which it could apply was wider. Funny, that.

 

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

 

Bad behaviour indeed but this is what "normal" RRS says and I think that is what applied in AC33.

69.1 Obligation not to Commit Gross Misconduct
(a) A competitor shall not commit gross misconduct, including a
gross breach of a rule, good manners or sportsmanship, or
conduct bringing the sport into disrepute. Throughout rule 69,
‘competitor’ means a member of the crew, or the owner, of a
boat.

 

There's no rule 69 application to someone going on strike on a committee boat. Potentially EB if he was on the committee boat but he was not. The last RRS AC rule 69 was worded differently and the range of people to which it could apply was wider. Funny, that.

 

Indeed.

So ythey could get away with pretty much anything because the rules didn't apply to them.

Regardless, one of the most disgraceful displays of sportsmanship ive ever heard of.

Sits right up there with Schumacher deliberately crashing into competitors in order to prevent them overhauling him on the points table. 

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There are many ways of interpreting what happened before the start of the second race of AC33. There is zero evidence that Berterelli asked for or encouraged the SNG members of the RC to do what they did and I have always believed they did it independently. They were completely in the wrong morally, but strictly by the letter of the rules that implied, Bennett did not have the authority to do what he did because the authority on whether to run the races or not was actually with the RC. Brad Butterworth encouraged Bertarelli to protest, knowing that by the letter of the law, they could get the race thrown out, but while he considered it, he decided against it. Who knows why. Maybe he realised that it didn't matter because all that would happen is that they would have resailed and still lost, or maybe he realised that morally, it was wrong. We will never know. 

I agree that the actions of Grange and his group was one of worst acts of unsporting behaviour we have seen in sailing, but I don't think you can hang that on Bertarelli on this particular occasion. Since then, rule 69 has been changed to say it applies to "A competitor, boat owner or support person"  but the question is whether the RC would have been covered under support persons.

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True, the wording did change for 2017-2020. Support person is a defined term

Support Person Any person who
(a) provides, or may provide, physical or advisory support to a competitor, including any coach, trainer, manager, team staff, medic, paramedic or any other person working with, treating or assisting a competitor in or preparing for the competition, or
(b) is the parent or guardian of a competitor.

The SNG RC would not have counted as "support people".

 

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2 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

There is zero evidence that Berterelli asked for or encouraged the SNG members of the RC to do what they did and I have always believed they did it independently...

...I don't think you can hang that on Bertarelli on this particular occasion.

Fuck you can be naive at times mate 

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3 hours ago, dogwatch said:

True, the wording did change for 2017-2020. Support person is a defined term

Support Person Any person who
(a) provides, or may provide, physical or advisory support to a competitor, including any coach, trainer, manager, team staff, medic, paramedic or any other person working with, treating or assisting a competitor in or preparing for the competition, or
(b) is the parent or guardian of a competitor.

The SNG RC would not have counted as "support people".

 

I am not so sure. the wording doesn't cover it, but the defender was SNG, being represented by Alinghi. They were members of the defending club, acting in support of the defender. As soon as they interfered with the racing on behalf of the defender, were they acting in a supporting role? Even still, I think that given the full set of circumstances, which most people get wrong, it would have been hard to get the RC under rule 69.

The event is talked of as a mutiny on the committee boat and those who say that claim that the SNG RC mutinied. That is exactly the wrong way around. The mutiny was actually by Harold Bennett. As Race Officer, under the way the rules were written, he had no power to decide when a race should or should not take place. His job was to run the racing when the RC said it was OK to run it. Technically, he mutinied against the RC decision not to run the racing  and this is why if SNG had protested the race as Butterworth and others had wanted, the race would almost certainly have been thrown out by any impartial IJ. It's the difference between what was morally right and what the rules said. Bennett did the right thing morally but in doing so, played loose with the rules. The question was whether the end justify the means. Most would argue in this case it did. Bennett took a big risk, because with a protest and the race thrown out, he would have been sacked and the ensuing mess would have given SNG time and more importantly, the weather was changing o being very light which was Alinghi's only hope. I have often wondered why Bertarelli didn't go with a last roll of the dice and protest. My theory is that in his warped mind, he didn't see his reputation as being tarnished (he still doesn't understand it to this day) and therefore he saw it as an action that would have tarnished his reputation when he was going to lose anyway. The lack of protest certainly doesn't sit with many people's view that he would try to in at all costs.

It's all history now. He tried manipulating the cup for his own benefit and he came badly unstuck, as was right. His actions allowed an equally manipulative person to get their hands on the cup because while most (all?) of what Ellison did was legal under the DOG, it was just as immoral. We are better off without either in the cup.

 

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6 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

There are many ways of interpreting what happened before the start of the second race of AC33. There is zero evidence that Berterelli asked for or encouraged the SNG members of the RC to do what they did and I have always believed they did it independently. They were completely in the wrong morally, but strictly by the letter of the rules that implied, Bennett did not have the authority to do what he did because the authority on whether to run the races or not was actually with the RC. Brad Butterworth encouraged Bertarelli to protest, knowing that by the letter of the law, they could get the race thrown out, but while he considered it, he decided against it. Who knows why. Maybe he realised that it didn't matter because all that would happen is that they would have resailed and still lost, or maybe he realised that morally, it was wrong. We will never know. 

I agree that the actions of Grange and his group was one of worst acts of unsporting behaviour we have seen in sailing, but I don't think you can hang that on Bertarelli on this particular occasion. Since then, rule 69 has been changed to say it applies to "A competitor, boat owner or support person"  but the question is whether the RC would have been covered under support persons.

So I wasn't hanging that on Ernie (even though I think he is a prick) and I agree that the most logical conclusion is that they acted alone.

Doesn't change the fact that it was appalling behaviour.

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"As soon as they interfered with the racing on behalf of the defender, were they acting in a supporting role? "

Not as defined in RRS 2017-2020. The wording, which I have quoted above, is defined, clear, limited in scope and does not simply mean "supporter" in a wide or general sense. Certainly not under RRS as written at the time where R69 scope was more limited.

 

 

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19 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

(...)

It's all history now. He tried manipulating the cup for his own benefit and he came badly unstuck, as was right. His actions allowed an equally manipulative person to get their hands on the cup because while most (all?) of what Ellison did was legal under the DOG, it was just as immoral. We are better off without either in the cup.

I agree 100% to ^ this.

By the way, my friends, what nonsense is this up- and downrating, and the "community reputation"?
Whoever is responsible for my "7" rating, thanks a lot, but it translates to "neutral". Hmmmmm, should I be proud of that?  :wacko:

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Oh, hadn't noticed that "community reputation". I suspect that is linked to the new "Like/Unlike". Screw that. I've walked away from another forum that does "karma points" which is much the same. I am happy to discuss differences of views but someone just clicking "like/don't like" without being willing to engage in discussion is weak-mindedness for the special snowflake generation.

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1 minute ago, dogwatch said:

Oh, hadn't noticed that "community reputation". I suspect that is linked to the new "Like/Unlike". Screw that. I've walked away from another forum that does "karma points" which is much the same. I am happy to discuss differences of views but someone just clicking "like/don't like" without being willing to engage in discussion is weak-mindedness for the special snowflake generation.

My first impulse was to do an A4E and announce my departure.
But then, I actually did an A4E and posted :lol:

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I like your reply Rennmaus. I clicked "like" and it has indeed enhanced your community reputation by one point.

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13 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

I like your reply Rennmaus. I clicked "like" and it has indeed enhanced your community reputation by one point.

No need to do this! :wub:
They should get rid of this s#it. We are able to abuse each other without a points system.

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

I like your reply Rennmaus. I clicked "like" and it has indeed enhanced your community reputation by one point.

Don't they have pills for 'enhancement'?

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Yeah, SNG representatives, one being EB's BFF, acted on their own to prevent Race #2 from starting.  My ass.  How about the recollections from that day by someone who was actually on the boat when it happened?

Quote

the mutiny

Screen Shot 2015-02-16 at 10.37.34 AM

Oracle Team USA Director of External Affairs and America’s Cup ‘fixer’ Tom Ehman celebrated the five-year anniversary of Dogzilla’s defeat of Alinghi 90 with a long-secret telling of just what happened on the Race Committee boat during the second race of the 2010 Match.  It’s great reading, and a reminder of just how fucked up it is at the very top end of ISAF-derived race management.  The full story – with some interesting comments – is on TFE’s Facebook Page here.

In the past five years I’ve said very little — publicly or privately — about the incident that took place on the RC boat before the start of AC33’s second and final race on Valentines Day 2010, five years ago yesterday. For the best-of-three-race Match, I was designated by Larry Ellison to serve as our “race committee boat representative,” which meant going afloat each race day on the RC boat to observe. Before the first race Alinghi tried to keep me off the boat, but I politely persisted; the internationally- and highly-respected Harold Bennett (Auckland, NZL), who had been agreed by both teams as the independent Principal Race Officer, came to my rescue and insisted that, per the mutually-agreed rules, I was permitted onboard. Not the most fun job, especially to be apart from the rest of our support team watching from other boats or at the team base, but one Larry and Russell both thought important. Turned out to be, especially at the start of Race Two….

surpriseIn addition to Harold, the RC was largely staffed by officials from Alinghi’s yacht club (SNG, Geneva, Switzerland) and led by their Vice Commodore. Race One went off without incident; many of you will recognize the image to the left is a portion of the larger photo of Jimmy Spithill’s famous Race One flying pre-start entry that caught Alinghi flat-footed — seconds after this photo was taken — and resulted in a port-starboard penalty to Alinghi.

Race Day Two dawned light and a bit lumpy. The races were subject to previously-agreed (between the teams) wind and sea limits. We were under postponement for most of the day as the wind was below the limit. Just before the afternoon cutoff time of (if memory serves) 1600, the breeze came up just enough. Accordingly, and properly “H”, as Harold Bennett is known in international sailing circles, tried to get a start sequence underway. However, Alinghi apparently thought the conditions were not favorable to them, so by radio the team ordered the SNG members of the race committee (flag-pullers, timers, etc.) to do whatever they could to stop H from starting the race. Quiet, then quite heated discussions failed to convince Harold to ignore the rules and call racing off for the day, so the SNG personnel went on strike. No joke. They went below and and started having drinks in the cabin of the RC boat.

Not deterred H carried on, and pressed his Spanish boat driver, navigator and communicator into action handling signals on the bow of the RC boat. But he was short one set of hands in the back deck to take down the postponement signal. “Sh*t, f*ck, sh*t, we’ll never get this started,” H famously said. And it was caught on TV tape — yes, I have a copy of the tape — by the on-board television crew. That’s when the GGYC Observer, sitting quietly near H on the upper deck and never one to be shy, suggested he could take down the postponement flag. H shouted (also caught on the TV tape), “Tom, take down that (expletive) postponement flag.” Of course I did, the race got underway just before the 1600 cut-off, and the rest is history. Weeks after the Match it was a pleasant surprise to receive a 4×3 photo of Jimmy’s famous Race One start, signed by Harold and commemorating the Race Two pre-start “strike” and the “scab-labor” that swung into action…

-TFE

https://sailinganarchy.com/2015/02/16/the-mutiny/

Bob Fisher's comment on TFE's facebook page:

Quote
Bob Fisher That's exactly as I have it in Volume III of "An Absorbing Interest" out one day soon. H's greeting the following morning was" Come in, I knew you would be the first." Why not, it was the best story of the week.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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5 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

No need to do this! :wub:
They should get rid of this s#it. We are able to abuse each other without a points system.

Another change? I got this unusual notification

E8515752-8CFB-4D3F-B435-E714A24B0A95.jpeg

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^ someone ‘reacted’? Lol! 

Since it was possibly some utter fool already on my ignore list like ro! then why the h*ll would I care? 

Wierd ‘upgrade’ if that’s what happened. Chumps..

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1 minute ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ someone ‘reacted’? Lol, since it was possibly some utter fool on my ignore list like ro! then why the h*ll would I care? 

Wierd ‘upgrade’ if that’s what happened. Chumps..

Nope, "someone" hints to the "likes"/downvotes, I think.
"Rennmaus" is when you're quoted, right?

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15 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Nope, "someone" hints to the "likes"/downvotes, I think.
"Rennmaus" is when you're quoted, right?

Ren - I think that was me trying to up-vote as many of your posts as I could!

 

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13 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Nope, "someone" hints to the "likes"/downvotes, I think.
"Rennmaus" is when you're quoted, right?

Could be, thank you. 

I saw the interplay above between you and dogwatch over the subject and so for fun went and Liked a few of yours, and Disliked a few of his, just to try understand wth the effect is. Maybe you both got notifications?

Anyway, still can’t decide which direction Anarchy points is cooler  :D 

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7 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

Ren - I think that was me trying to up-vote as many of your posts as I could!

 

Confession time?
I'll like yours too, but - especially while reading the VOR Alicante-Lisbon thread - I wonder the same as Stingray...

6 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Could be, thank you. 

I saw the interplay above between you and dogwatch over the subject and so for fun went and Liked a few of yours, and Disliked a few of his, just to try understand wth the effect is. Maybe you both got notifications?

Anyway, still can’t decide which direction Anarchy points is cooler  :D 

... which one is cooler, the red minus or the green plus points?

Depends on the "translation":
- 7 plus pts = neutral
- in the 10s = Whiner

Is there a list of all of them somewhere?

 

EDIT: Even better: Admin, stop this nonsense!

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33 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Confession time?
I'll like yours too, but - especially while reading the VOR Alicante-Lisbon thread - I wonder the same as Stingray...

... which one is cooler, the red minus or the green plus points?

Depends on the "translation":
- 7 plus pts = neutral
- in the 10s = Whiner

Is there a list of all of them somewhere?

 

EDIT: Even better: Admin, stop this nonsense!

I liked that one, can you tell it was me? 

 

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7 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I liked that one, can you tell it was me? 

 

No, you can't see, who is responsible for your points.

Thanks to you latest "like", I became "Suckup". Seems to be the rating for the +20s. 

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4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ someone ‘reacted’? Lol! 

Since it was possibly some utter fool already on my ignore list like ro! then why the h*ll would I care? 

Wierd ‘upgrade’ if that’s what happened. Chumps..

A lucky 'guess' it was me or you lied about having me on iggy..

On the bright side it got you another 20ish total bollocks posts today towards that 50K....

Wanker...

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Anything interesting from Cammas?

Video, French

http://www.letelegramme.fr/voile/cafe-de-la-marine-cammas-revient-sur-la-coupe-28-10-2017-11720246.php

edit: Gtran of https://www.tvr.bzh/programmes/le-cafe-de-la-marine-1509269400

GUEST: FRANCK CAMMAS This Bermuda campaign in which this 35th edition competed on flying multihulls (AC 50) did not allow it to reach its Grail but the result was positive. In spite of technical and financial means inferior to their rivals, Franck Cammas and Groupama Team France proved that they could compete with the best teams of the world. The New Zealand winners of this 35th edition have announced that the next edition will be contested again on monohulls. A news that did not delight Franck Cammas who would have preferred to continue on AC 50. But this formidable competitor does not intend to throw in the towel. All the trouble for him is now to find partners to revive a tricolor Challenge. At the Café de la Marine with Gilbert Dréan and Virginie Valentini, he will take stock of this first participation in the America's Cup and will discuss his plans for the future.

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13 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Anything interesting from Cammas?

Video, French

http://www.letelegramme.fr/voile/cafe-de-la-marine-cammas-revient-sur-la-coupe-28-10-2017-11720246.php

edit: Gtran of https://www.tvr.bzh/programmes/le-cafe-de-la-marine-1509269400

GUEST: FRANCK CAMMAS This Bermuda campaign in which this 35th edition competed on flying multihulls (AC 50) did not allow it to reach its Grail but the result was positive. In spite of technical and financial means inferior to their rivals, Franck Cammas and Groupama Team France proved that they could compete with the best teams of the world. The New Zealand winners of this 35th edition have announced that the next edition will be contested again on monohulls. A news that did not delight Franck Cammas who would have preferred to continue on AC 50. But this formidable competitor does not intend to throw in the towel. All the trouble for him is now to find partners to revive a tricolor Challenge. At the Café de la Marine with Gilbert Dréan and Virginie Valentini, he will take stock of this first participation in the America's Cup and will discuss his plans for the future.

I get the feeling that Franck will struggle with the funding.

There is no such thing as a cheap AC and with all the external assistance they seem to have had last time, I think their budget will likely need to be bigger this time around. 

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4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Thanks, a few points:

- we began AC35 2 years late, we improved our performance very quickly but had no time to test the options, it had to be good out of the box

- our main problem was lack of energy storage, after 12 kts we had to diminish the rudder rm, dimishing speed, increasing unstability

- a good mono may be interesting but always slower than an AC50. In order to fly you have to minimize the weight and increase the rm, it's much easier to do it on a multi than a mono

- his discussions with G Verdier let him think that tacks will be very difficult as these boats will have dynamic rm (me: that probably means no keel).

- wide and large foils getting out of the hull will prove difficult to handle

- the performances will be a regression but a white paper to design the boat will be exciting

- he understands that the secret agreement between TNZ and LR was part of the AC game, however he dislike the fact that they gave morale lessons to Oracle while they were doing the same. The forum was open, it was transparent, they were invited, refused to come (me: probably because they were already engaged with P$B)

- testing the boat in water tanks will be authorized before, so teams will have to join the AC as late as possible

From another video, perhaps older:

- no Groupama but Norauto

- they need to find a group of sponsors

- budget will be 25 millions per year, about 7 more than for last AC

- they will train on GC32 and TP52 where all major AC teams should train

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Thanks, a few points:

- we began AC35 2 years late, we improved our performance very quickly but had no time to test the options, it had to be good out of the box

- our main problem was lack of energy storage, after 12 kts we had to diminish the rudder rm, dimishing speed, increasing unstability

- a good mono may be interesting but always slower than an AC50. In order to fly you have to minimize the weight and increase the rm, it's much easier to do it on a multi than a mono

- his discussions with G Verdier let him think that tacks will be very difficult as these boats will have dynamic rm (me: that probably means no keel).

- wide and large foils getting out of the hull will prove difficult to handle

- the performances will be a regression but a white paper to design the boat will be exciting

- he understands that the secret agreement between TNZ and LR was part of the AC game, however he dislike the fact that they gave morale lessons to Oracle while they were doing the same. The forum was open, it was transparent, they were invited, refused to come (me: probably because they were already engaged with P$B)

- testing the boat in water tanks will be authorized before, so teams will have to join the AC as late as possible

From another video, perhaps older:

- no Groupama but Norauto

- they need to find a group of sponsors

- budget will be 25 millions per year, about 7 more than for last AC

- they will train on GC32 and TP52 where all major AC teams should train

Thanks, TC, ‘discussions with G Verdier’ add a lot of credence to all that.

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Another quote : "G Verdier told me that new boats would be very exciting, he did not tell me they would be faster"

What I do not understand, at one point he explains that he prefers multis because rm is provided by the W, while monos need a keel, and later he tells that the rm will be dynamic, which IMO, can be explained by wide external foils. And, yes, in that case tacks will be very difficult: you need rm to foil, the rm is provided by speed, so you have to keep speed during the tack or.... capsize because the power of the sail will be much bigger than the rm provided by W of the hull.

Might be fun after all.

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15 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

- he understands that the secret agreement between TNZ and LR was part of the AC game, however he dislike the fact that they gave morale lessons to Oracle while they were doing the same. The forum was open, it was transparent, they were invited, refused to come (me: probably because they were already engaged with P$B)

Yup.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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14 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Another quote : "G Verdier told me that new boats would be very exciting, he did not tell me they would be faster"

What I do not understand, at one point he explains that he prefers multis because rm is provided by the W, while monos need a keel, and later he tells that the rm will be dynamic, which IMO, can be explained by wide external foils. And, yes, in that case tacks will be very difficult: you need rm to foil, the rm is provided by speed, so you have to keep speed during the tack or.... capsize because the power of the sail will be much bigger than the rm provided by W of the hull.

Might be fun after all.

Listening again, I believe Cammas' conversation with Verdier was still at the "3 options" stage, and what you mention refers to the totally innovative one. But Cammas himself states that a more conventional alternative with (canting) keel is also a possibility. 

 

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2 hours ago, Xlot said:

Listening again, I believe Cammas' conversation with Verdier was still at the "3 options" stage, and what you mention refers to the totally innovative one. But Cammas himself states that a more conventional alternative with (canting) keel is also a possibility. 

 

Probability, IMO.

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20 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

- he understands that the secret agreement between TNZ and LR was part of the AC game, however he dislike the fact that they gave morale lessons to Oracle while they were doing the same. The forum was open, it was transparent, they were invited, refused to come

This. As much as the NZ deniers like to say otherwise, it is totally hypocritical to criticise the London Framework yet ignore the deal between TNZ and LR.

 

Quote

- budget will be 25 millions per year, about 7 more than for last AC

I don't know if he is referring to euros or dollars, but lets say it is US$. a 4 year campaign will cost $100m, which seems to be a consistent figure i keep hearing for the minimum campaign cost. I have also been hearing that under the London framework, teams were looking at a budget of between $40 and $50m, which again, is consistent with this statement because that would have been $20-25m per year (for 2 years). It will be interesting to see just how many teams want to thrown that much cash at the game.

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