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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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30 minutes ago, Boybland said:

So why even have a class rule that states the boat can't be changed except by unanimous vote if it clearly can be changed simply by specifying a new class rule in the protocol by majority vote.  Pretty meaningless to include the clause if it's unenforcable.

I agree it can be confusing, however, once the boat is decided, the rules governs the changes.

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20 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I agree it can be confusing, however, once the boat is decided, the rules governs the changes.

So announcing the boat is not deciding the boat? but the rule has not been released and therefore not legally binding therefore open to change under the protocol? even though everyone knew that the class rule can only be changed by unanimous consent? Boy oh boy is that skating on thin moral ice or what!

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1 hour ago, Boybland said:

So announcing the boat is not deciding the boat? but the rule has not been released and therefore not legally binding therefore open to change under the protocol? even though everyone knew that the class rule can only be changed by unanimous consent? Boy oh boy is that skating on thin moral ice or what!

It was not about moral ice at the time, it was about LR misreading the prot. It strangely comes back now as a conspiracy theory.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

LR was not CoR, the gave their right to the challenger committee.

I believe he is referring to AC36

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On 11/3/2017 at 2:56 PM, rh2600 said:

Hoggie I'm genuinely surprised - first off again, putting words in my mouth despite be declaring the opposite. My only assessment on Cammas is that he's simply not neutral when it comes to judging the LA vs LR - nothing about him being dishonest.

You said Cammas was "in the pocket" of Larry Ellison.  Where I come from when someone is referred to in that way their credibility and honesty is in question, to put it nicely.  Merriam Webster seems to feel the same way about "in the pocket":

Quote

- Under someone's control or influence 

Example:  researchers/scientists who are in the pocket ofpharmaceutical companies

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/in the pocket of (someone)

As does the Collins English Dictionary:

Quote

If you say that someone is in someone else's pocket, you disapprove of the fact that the first person is willing to do whatever the second person tells them, for example out of weakness or in return for money.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/in-someones-pocket

And Dictionary.com:

Quote

Under someone's absolute control

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/in-someone-s-pocket

And the Urban Dictionary:

Quote

When someone says they have someone "in their pocket" they mean that they have the person on check! Meaning they own someone.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=In my pocket

I have no idea if you spoke those words, so not sure I put them in your mouth, but you definitely typed them and posted them under your online identity on this website.  So you feel that Cammas is owned by Larry Ellision, that Cammas will say an do anything in support of Larry Ellison because Larry Ellison owns Cammas.  Essentially that whenever Cammas speaks he lacks credibility and honesty because you believe that Cammas is being told what to say by Larry Ellison.  That Cammas is a liar, basically.  I disagree.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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4 hours ago, WetHog said:

You said Cammas was "in the pocket" of Larry Ellison.  Where I come from when someone is referred to in that way their credibility and honesty is in question, to put it nicely.  Merriam Webster seems to feel the same way about "in the pocket":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/in the pocket of (someone)

As does the Collins English Dictionary:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/in-someones-pocket

And Dictionary.com:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/in-someone-s-pocket

And the Urban Dictionary:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=In my pocket

I have no idea if you spoke those words, so not sure I put them in your mouth, but you definitely typed them and posted them under your online identity on this website.  So you feel that Cammas is owned by Larry Ellision, that Cammas will say an do anything in support of Larry Ellison because Larry Ellison owns Cammas.  Essentially that whenever Cammas speaks he lacks credibility and honesty because you believe that Cammas is being told what to say by Larry Ellison.  That Cammas is a liar, basically.  I disagree.

WetHog  :ph34r:

wow! All that effort and still being wrong...

In his pocket? Yes
Under his influence? Yup
Thus dishonest? No way (and of course none of your definitions make that leap)

Maybe spend the next couple of hours trawling dictionaries again and you'll learn that too!

Perhaps where you come from being influenced by money makes you automatically dishonest, but in my world (and Cammas's) that isn't the case at all.

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13 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It was not about moral ice at the time, it was about LR misreading the prot. It strangely comes back now as a conspiracy theory.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, just greedy self interest with weaker teams voting for something that made them stronger at the expense of the stronger teams, doesn't make it any less wrong.

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2 hours ago, Boybland said:

I don't think it's a conspiracy, just greedy self interest with weaker teams voting for something that made them stronger at the expense of the stronger teams, doesn't make it any less wrong.

100%!

The group dynamics at play were significant, and eerily reminiscent of the rudder changes Artemis supported with Oracle in AC34 because it further reduced the gap between them and LR/ETNZ.

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That is what I was thinking at the time, now I just believe that any defender priority is to make a sucess of the event, thus having a spectacular boat and as many teams as possible, thus needs to help some teams when necessary. The CoR has completely different objectives and wants to neutralize as many challengers as possible to win.

The rudder changes, iirc, were mainly for OR, but we now know that length, strengh and surface are key for safety.

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12 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

That is what I was thinking at the time, now I just believe that any defender priority is to make a sucess of the event, thus having a spectacular boat and as many teams as possible, thus needs to help some teams when necessary. The CoR has completely different objectives and wants to neutralize as many challengers as possible to win.

The rudder changes, iirc, were mainly for OR, but we now know that length, strengh and surface are key for safety.

I agree that the defenders priority was probably unrelated to performance (you could even argue more challengers even works against them), it was mainly the other challengers that are at fault, they clearly saw an opportunity to further their own ends even though they knew it was pretty underhanded they went ahead with it anyway.  Even the defender though is nt without fault, they have an obligation to the teams that have already challenged and must have known it was a pretty shit move to punish LR and ETNZ just to allow a couple of extra pretty uncompetitive borderline teams to attend.

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Alright, with the new platform announced, now is crunch time for teams on the bubble to get in or out. 

I would suspect that the teams on the bubble are looking at that platform and seeing dollar (or euro or pound or franc or yen or whatever) signs spinning. The point was made in the Next Boat 2020 thread that very low budget teams that might have been able to hang in for a third go at catamarans will opt out of spending (they may see as wasting) money on a also-ran program on a new platform. I would also suspect that anyone serious about getting in will make the announcement by Christmas - otherwise it will get VERY difficult to put a competitive team in place in time. 

So:

OTUSA: no indication to make us think so

OTAUS: good idea, but magic 8-ball says "outlook not so good"

Cammas: Nothing to attract a French sponsor to this idea yet

Alinghi: Platform has not solved any of the reasons to be skeptical

Artemis: Ditto

2nd Italy: Gotta move fast - might be too late to get the team together with the nationality requirements

Other USA: Ditto

New team from China/Japan/Germany/Russia/etc: Unless Clean has heard something, there's not an indication yet. 

 

If anyone knows any billionaires, now is the time to convince them to jump in. The clock is ticking. 

Has anyone heard anything? Clean?

 

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I can't imagine this concept was put together with the desire to attract many teams.  Unless they are going to go full one-design with the entire foil system, only the richest of potential teams could think they could keep up... and I don't know how many are going to be enticed by this... at least this time around.

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So, in fact, all we are waiting for is a pronouncement from Alinghi and Artemis. In any case, at most six bases will be needed - this change should be input into the AKL decision process

 

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2 hours ago, 2Newts said:

Alright, with the new platform announced, now is crunch time for teams on the bubble to get in or out. 

I would suspect that the teams on the bubble are looking at that platform and seeing dollar (or euro or pound or franc or yen or whatever) signs spinning. The point was made in the Next Boat 2020 thread that very low budget teams that might have been able to hang in for a third go at catamarans will opt out of spending (they may see as wasting) money on a also-ran program on a new platform. I would also suspect that anyone serious about getting in will make the announcement by Christmas - otherwise it will get VERY difficult to put a competitive team in place in time. 

So:

OTUSA: no indication to make us think so

OTAUS: good idea, but magic 8-ball says "outlook not so good"

Cammas: Nothing to attract a French sponsor to this idea yet

Alinghi: Platform has not solved any of the reasons to be skeptical

Artemis: Ditto

2nd Italy: Gotta move fast - might be too late to get the team together with the nationality requirements

Other USA: Ditto

New team from China/Japan/Germany/Russia/etc: Unless Clean has heard something, there's not an indication yet. 

 

If anyone knows any billionaires, now is the time to convince them to jump in. The clock is ticking. 

Has anyone heard anything? Clean?

 

Haven't been digging much unfortunately, too much fun raising a 2 year old!  Will be back beating the bushes over the next couple weeks though.

 

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My teams forecast: 

ETNZ and LRC plus: 

— NYYC and LRBAR 90% chance

— Alinghi and Artemis 50% chance

— 2nd ITA and USA challenges 20% chance

— OTUSA and a Russian challenge (many owners could afford it but for one reason or another they never pull the AC trigger) 10% chance

— Other new challenges 5% chance

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  ^ Agree: for a grand total of ... 5, max. 6 teams. But 4 teams only would be just as likely ...

 

 

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6 hours ago, paperinick said:

My teams forecast: 

ETNZ and LRC plus: 

— NYYC and LRBAR 90% chance

— Alinghi and Artemis 50% chance

— 2nd ITA and USA challenges 20% chance

— OTUSA and a Russian challenge (many owners could afford it but for one reason or another they never pull the AC trigger) 10% chance

— Other new challenges 5% chance

I mostly agree but I think your probabilities on Alinghi and Artemis are too high, especially the former. I'd also count the chances of a Team AUS as higher than a Team RUS. As for OTUSA, they are history.

It's surprising - and IMO not encouraging - that the boat announcement hasn't linked in with any team announcements.

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Sadly, some comments by TE in a recent webcast have me wondering if - despite their announced intention - Quantum Racing (NYYC) may be having a rethink. This boat is way different from where their experience and expertise is.

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7 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Sadly, some comments by TE in a recent webcast have me wondering if - despite their announced intention - Quantum Racing (NYYC) may be having a rethink. This boat is way different from where their experience and expertise is.

I still hope they and a bunch of others turn up. I do think on the surface of it, these seem like silly boats. Could be wrong and only racing will confirm one way or the other of course. But that's my current opinion. 

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17 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I still hope they and a bunch of others turn up. I do think on the surface of it, these seem like silly boats. Could be wrong and only racing will confirm one way or the other of course. But that's my current opinion. 

For sure, 6 teams or more would be nicer than fewer. A NYYC entry may get a few superyachts to travel all the way down there too, something ETNZ seems for whatever reason concerned about.

TE also suggested that his preliminary talks with a US West Coast team have cooled, unfortunately for me since NYYC is not even remotely ‘in my neighborhood’ and am no real fan of the de Vos family either.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Sadly, some comments by TE in a recent webcast have me wondering if - despite their announced intention - Quantum Racing (NYYC) may be having a rethink. This boat is way different from where their experience and expertise is.

Depends really. Maybe if they can get Jimmy Spithill , some of the Oracle guys, Dean Barker and a few of the Softbank guys, they may have a good shot. Won't be hard to convince Spithill, or possibly Dean Barker. 

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The realities are that any team would rightly see the foiling AC75 as a significant advantage for ETNZ with their winning foil designs and control systems legacy from AC35. And this view might deter and discourage some marginal Challengers from pulling the trigger.

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5 hours ago, Indio said:

The realities are that any team would rightly see the foiling AC75 as a significant advantage for ETNZ with their winning foil designs and control systems legacy from AC35. And this view might deter and discourage some marginal Challengers from pulling the trigger.

The other reality has always been that any first-time team needs to look at this round as the experience-gaining round, not the time to win the cup. 

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On 11/27/2017 at 5:36 AM, 2Newts said:

The other reality has always been that any first-time team needs to look at this round as the experience-gaining round, not the time to win the cup. 

Alinghi being the glaring exception to the "always"...

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18 hours ago, Indio said:

Alinghi being the glaring exception to the "always"...

Buying the current winning team is always the exception to having to put in the normal amount work to achieve a goal... 

It is however a proven formula for success for billionaire sports fans the world over!

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/sport/act-sport/twotime-winner-jimmy-spithill-wants-to-see-australia-back-in-the-americas-cup-20171205-gzzlbz.html

Two-time America's Cup winner Jimmy Spithill says he'd love to see Australia back competing in the world's most famous sailing race after a 21-year hiatus.

sounds like Jimmy is job hunting

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30 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Just got a package from Jimmy.  Apparently I'm on the '6 months after it's released' list ;)

Guess I have some reading to do.  

He's hoping you can hock off a few more copies to the 100,000+ Sailing Anarchy family...

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On 12/10/2017 at 10:53 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

Just got a package from Jimmy.  Apparently I'm on the '6 months after it's released' list ;)

Guess I have some reading to do.  

 

Just finished Alan Sefton's "Exposed". Kept me up late a few nights: well-written, very detailed, clears up some foggy memories of what the hell happened there over the decades. Plus a huge amount of detail on the pre-modern era. Well worth getting a copy unless you're a pictures kind of guy. 

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