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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Is it? You do understand that nobody who counts for anything has said it is going to happen at all?

Spoke to Nathan Outteridge at the Australian A Class nationals presentation dinner this week and he thought it was probably happening. Sorry that's not a copy of a signed contract, and I am sure there is still a lot of pieces to fall into place, but I would be surprised if it doesn't happen.

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10 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Is it? You do understand that nobody who counts for anything has said it is going to happen at all?

Spinbot counts for 50k posts, te and the bot have given it the green light....

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10 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Ehman blew his credibility in the Super12 fiasco. Alinghi signing up for a Larry show? Cammas with the funding to get back into the AC50 game? I will believe it when I see it.

EB did meet with RC for a dinner during AC35, in Bermuda, and spoke of enjoying it. I bet they talked about this at the time. If EB also spoke to LE, who was also there at the time, he didn’t say so but it sure seems possible.

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8 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Spoke to Nathan Outteridge at the Australian A Class nationals presentation dinner this week and he thought it was probably happening. Sorry that's not a copy of a signed contract, and I am sure there is still a lot of pieces to fall into place, but I would be surprised if it doesn't happen.

Thanks, strong suggestion there.

As to what the fastest boats are, ETNZ’s AC50 AC35 winner, the Next-Gen AC50’s, or the AC75’s, hopefully in the future we will be able to get new datasets and then we can also compare polars.

Similar article in the Gazette today: http://mobile.royalgazette.com/sailing/article/20180106/speculation-increases-linking-bermuda-with-regatta&template=mobileart

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3 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

How soon we forget...it's not so long ago that spinbot and the rest of the west coast mafia were constantly telling us that thier hero Russ was fucking 'erne$tos' wife...

It's hard to believe he would be having dinner with the wife shagger!...of course with lazza joining them at the loser table it could be ..call the oily swede, the frogs and the 'j's and lets go fuck with GD....

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On 31/12/2017 at 12:48 PM, Xlot said:

Hoping against hope for a surprise tomorrow ...

 

Rev. 2.0

 

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19 hours ago, Xlot said:

Rev. 2.0

at Gtran https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https://www.oasport.it/2018/01/vela-coppa-america-2021-la-sardegna-lancia-la-sfida-barca-ed-equipaggio-tutti-isolani-per-sognare-in-nuova-zelanda/&prev=search

Sailing, America's Cup 2021: Sardinia launches the challenge! Boat and crew all islanders to dream in New Zealand

The America's Cup 2021 is taking more and more shape and will have Italy as its protagonist . Sardinia in particular: not only because Luna Rossa has started training in Cagliari and will build its base in the Sardinian capital, but also because the "Adelasia di Torres" Foundation is ready to launch its challenge . In all senses, since the expedition will have a strong territorial character. At the head there will be the Sardinian entrepreneur Renato Azara and the boat will be designed and built entirely in Sardinia, with local designers and builders. The yacht club that should launch the challenge is Arzachena .

A project that, in addition to the sporting aspect, also aims to promote the territory of Sardinia , according to agreements with the governor Francesco Pigliaru. In fact, the main sponsor could be the body that favors regional tourism. It is not excluded, however, that Azara can request support from abroad (we speak of Oman or United Arab Emirates, given the recent positive results of Adelasia of Torres nell'Arabia Tour), so as to make even more full-bodied the investment. Italy, therefore, can count on two boats (but Mascalzone Latino is still thinking about it ...) in the number 36 edition of the America's Cup that will be held in Auckland in 2021.

 

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26 minutes ago, Stingray~~ said:

 

A project that, in addition to the sporting aspect, also aims to promote the territory of Sardinia , according to agreements with the governor Francesco Pigliaru. In fact, the main sponsor might be the body that favors regional tourism. It is not excluded, however, that Azara can request support from abroad (we speak of Oman or United Arab Emirates, given the recent positive results of Adelasia of Torres nell'Arabia Tour), so as to make even more full-bodied the investment. Italy, therefore, can count on two boats (but Mascalzone Latino is still thinking about it ...) in the number 36 edition of the America's Cup that will be held in Auckland in 2021.

 

Venezia Challenge redux. Bertelli will not be amused. Thank god for the 1M$ fee

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~~ said:

Does it look like that Club holds annual regattas? I see a photo of some Optimists, from 2013.

......

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22 hours ago, Stingray~~ said:

The yacht club that should launch the challenge is Arzachena

Is the Gtran accurate and that declarative? The Italian is 

Lo yacht club che dovrebbe lanciare la sfida è quello di Arzachena.

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C'mon,  even the Gtran is clear enough: "Now we have to reach the goal that will allow us to officially join the competition - declares Azara - involving in our adventure traveling companions who can economically support a very demanding undertaking." - it's all wishful thinking, nothing formal, no money, no mention in the Italian sailing media

As for Arzachena, been there: it's a village up on a hill inland from Porto Cervo, there's a flea market once a week - period

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2 minutes ago, Xlot said:

C'mon,  even the Gtran is clear enough: "Now we have to reach the goal that will allow us to officially join the competition - declares Azara - involving in our adventure traveling companions who can economically support a very demanding undertaking." - it's all wishful thinking, nothing formal, no money, no mention in the Italian sailing media

As for Arzachena, been there: it's a village up on a hill inland from Porto Cervo, there's a flea market once a week - period

Fully understand your skepticism. Maybe, if they do somehow find real financing from wealthy friends (in Oman, UAE, Qatar? they did sail in the Gulf this past year) then they will come to realize they also need a real YC..

P$B did say he expected another Italian team to challenge - if he was not referring to these guys then.. Who?

 

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Not sure about Bertelli's degree of expectation. ATM the only candidates would seem to be the Lacorte brothers - see post #221 in the LR tnread

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Still no announcement from RNZYS/ETNZ about the number of entries received. Did anyone beside Luna Rossa file yet? How much interest will AC36 Auckland actually get?

Something went wrong.. ?

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Maybe the shine and excitement of foiling boats is starting to wear-off with those who like to fund these types of programs.

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1 hour ago, ~HHN92~ said:

Maybe the shine and excitement of foiling boats is starting to wear-off with those who like to fund these types of programs.

Or maybe it just takes longer than a few months to finalise a full blown Americas Cup program. Its JANUARY!

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5 hours ago, Stingray~~ said:

Still no announcement from RNZYS/ETNZ about the number of entries received. Did anyone beside Luna Rossa file yet? How much interest will AC36 Auckland actually get?

Something went wrong.. ?

Still no announcement about a "supposed" 50 foot foiling catamaran series? How much interest will this circus actually get? Something went wrong?

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On the plus side with space being at a premium  it will be easier to provide the necessary infrastructure  for fewer teams in Auckland if it does end up there. 

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10 hours ago, sclarke said:

Or maybe it just takes longer than a few months to finalise a full blown Americas Cup program. Its JANUARY!

I was not expecting RNZYS to necessarily announce Syndicate entries by now since they have a Club ‘vetting’ process to follow and since they are supposed to make announcements only after cooperation with teams on the timing. A simple “We have received X number of challenges” seems a reasonable statement to expect but they’ve said nothing at all.

There’s a good chance QR will either confirm or deny having entered at this coming event:

Core members of the Bella Mente Quantum Racing Association will deliver a special keynote presentation on Saturday, February 3, 2018, at the Sailing Leadership Forum in St. Pete Beach, Florida, at the TradeWinds Island Resorts.

http://www.ussailing.org/bmqr-slf2018/

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QR are promoting the ideals of their challenge as part of the announcement for this event, so I think it is pretty certain they are challenging. I feel the big money is not all that excited about some far-out foiling platform, again. We have seen it in the last 2 Cups and the lines are apparently not burning-up at the RNZYS.

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12 hours ago, sclarke said:

Still no announcement about a "supposed" 50 foot foiling catamaran series? How much interest will this circus actually get? Something went wrong?

PM spinbot or the snake oil salesman, they are heading the 'big it up' program....I hear that there is talk of of having the 'super twelves' on the same bill...

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4 hours ago, Stingray~~ said:

I was not expecting RNZYS to necessarily announce Syndicate entries by now since they have a Club ‘vetting’ process to follow and since they are supposed to make announcements only after cooperation with teams on the timing. A simple “We have received X number of challenges” seems a reasonable statement to expect but they’ve said nothing at all.

There’s a good chance QR will either confirm or deny having entered at this coming event:

Core members of the Bella Mente Quantum Racing Association will deliver a special keynote presentation on Saturday, February 3, 2018, at the Sailing Leadership Forum in St. Pete Beach, Florida, at the TradeWinds Island Resorts.

http://www.ussailing.org/bmqr-slf2018/

Why would you say anything at this early stage? Wouldn't you want to wait until teams have announced before saying anything? I mean, the RNZYS could come out and say, we have 8 challengers, but really what does it matter until those 8 teams announce themselves? Until Teams are official, we have no numbers. GD himself stated in the past, he has had interest from about 6 or 7 teams, is that not enough? I'm sure the last thing on the RNZYS and ETNZ 's minds is satisfying the posters on Sailing Anarchy Forums.

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14 hours ago, sclarke said:

Still no announcement about a "supposed" 50 foot foiling catamaran series? How much interest will this circus actually get? Something went wrong?

What has this to do with the AC? And how does asking this answer the questions about entries.

From what I hear, there has been significant progress in the AC50 series and that there is significant interest, enough for them to start serious work on how to equalise the boats and to more seriously consider if it is possible to use the last versions of 45 trial boats as well (can they be competitive?) because there is already more interest than there are boats. 

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

What has this to do with the AC? And how does asking this answer the questions about entries.

From what I hear, there has been significant progress in the AC50 series and that there is significant interest, enough for them to start serious work on how to equalise the boats and to more seriously consider if it is possible to use the last versions of 45 trial boats as well (can they be competitive?) because there is already more interest than there are boats. 

What does an AC50 have to do with the AC? ah gee, how about the two letters at the start "AC".

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44 minutes ago, sclarke said:

What does an AC50 have to do with the AC? ah gee, how about the two letters at the start "AC".

Another commonality appears to be in how a few formerly AC-interested big $B’s (LE, TT, EB, MS) may be continuing on with the LV AC50 circuit instead of switching to ETNZ’s AC75. Will that affect the number and quality of AC36 entries? Hard to say, they may have stayed away even without an AC50 progression. One team I could see campaigning in both might be Artemis; perhaps they will say one way or another after studying the coming Rule.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

What has this to do with the AC? And how does asking this answer the questions about entries.

From what I hear, there has been significant progress in the AC50 series and that there is significant interest, enough for them to start serious work on how to equalise the boats and to more seriously consider if it is possible to use the last versions of 45 trial boats as well (can they be competitive?) because there is already more interest than there are boats. 

Hopefully. From sailors perspective there are significant issues with the AC75 that could jeopardize the event

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

What has this to do with the AC? And how does asking this answer the questions about entries.

From what I hear, there has been significant progress in the AC50 series and that there is significant interest, enough for them to start serious work on how to equalise the boats and to more seriously consider if it is possible to use the last versions of 45 trial boats as well (can they be competitive?) because there is already more interest than there are boats. 

45 foot long is probably a better choice. Cheaper, safer and easier to transport.

The AC50 was just long enough to comply with the DOG minimum lwl  of 44'. They don't need to worry about that now they're out of the AC. Having a minimum lwl was crazy when they were sailing dry races anyway.

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23 minutes ago, Fireball said:

45 foot long is probably a better choice. Cheaper, safer and easier to transport.

The AC50 was just long enough to comply with the DOG minimum lwl  of 44'. They don't need to worry about that now they're out of the AC. Having a minimum lwl was crazy when they were sailing dry races anyway.

Iirc even the AC50’s were designed to be transportable in 40’ containers because of their removable sterns. (and bows, maybe?) That makes the possibility of up-modifying 45T’s to AC50s more plausible.

On the subject of lwl, some posts have been suggesting that if you go by that number (as has been tradition) then the 75’ loa AC75 might more correctly be name the AC68, a 68’ lwl with a 7’ sprit. The AC72’s had lwl hulls that length but plus 8’ sprits for an loa of 80’. Or even 83’?

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1 hour ago, Stingray~~ said:

Another commonality appears to be in how a few formerly AC-interested big $B’s (LE, TT, EB, MS) may be continuing on with the LV AC50 circuit instead of switching to ETNZ’s AC75. Will that affect the number and quality of AC36 entries? Hard to say, they may have stayed away even without an AC50 progression. One team I could see campaigning in both might be Artemis; perhaps they will say one way or another after studying the coming Rule.

When you say "AC interested big $B's (LE, TT, EB, MS) do you mean the defeated ones? The beaten ones? The ones who are too weak to try and win the thing back but would rather take their ball and go home because they didn't get what they wanted, even though they lost? If they want an AC50 series, all they have to do is win the Americas Cup and hey presto AC50 world series guaranteed! 

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^ Best to let them speak for themselves, probably. If they want to continue an AC50 progression then, being big $B’s, it is exactly what they can and will do. I imagine they spent ten minutes max choosing their preference.

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26 minutes ago, Stingray~~ said:

^ Best to let them speak for themselves, probably. If they want to continue an AC50 progression then, being big $B’s, it is exactly what they can and will do. I imagine they spent ten minutes max choosing their preference.

I think sclarke was mainly addressing your mention of 'quality' of AC being compromised by these people not participating. His point is, and I agree, that they are mainly made up of low-quality losers - albeit rich ones. Just the type of people AC is best without.

Enjoy!

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16 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

I think sclarke was mainly addressing your mention of 'quality' of AC being compromised by these people not participating. His point is, and I agree, that they are mainly made up of low-quality losers - albeit rich ones. Just the type of people AC is best without.

Enjoy!

Only one team wins in any AC but that does not necessarily mean that other campaigns weren’t also well-funded, decent-efforts, or well-intentioned. 

That may be true of any AC36 Competitors too, time will tell. ETNZ has a history of aggression, so this includes their coming behavior.

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10 minutes ago, Stingray~~ said:

ETNZ has a history of aggression...

Do tell...

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1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

Do tell...

You’re kidding, right - Where do you wanna start? How about with their own lawsuits filed against Ernesto in the NYSC? Follow through to AC34 SF where GD declared 360 deg ‘all out warfare’ on all fronts including legal. They had by his admission his attack-dog lawyers on standby in both Bermuda and back in NZ during even AC35 Bermuda.

Potential Challs do need to be worried. BA has already suggested as  much, with his caveat about entering on condition that certain Protocol conditions be amended first.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~~ said:

You’re kidding, right - Where do you wanna start? How about with their own lawsuits filed against Ernesto in the NYSC? Follow through to AC34 SF where GD declared 360 deg ‘all out warfare’ on all fronts including legal. They had by his admission his attack-dog lawyers on standby in both Bermuda and back in NZ during even AC35 Bermuda.

Potential Challs do need to be worried. BA has already suggested as  much, with his caveat about entering on condition that certain Protocol conditions be amended first.

Let's not forget that the "attack-dog lawyers" more than earned their keep to the tune of millions of dollars in their successful  protest against illegitimate ACEA actions that ultimately denied ETNZ government funding in the last Cup cycle. 

Kiwi challengers for the Cup long ago learned to be wary of rule-bending Billionaire challengers.

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4 hours ago, Stingray~~ said:

^ Best to let them speak for themselves, probably. If they want to continue an AC50 progression then, being big $B’s, it is exactly what they can and will do. I imagine they spent ten minutes max choosing their preference.

In other words...who cares what type of sportspeople you are, as long as you're a billionaire thats all that matters. No thanks. The AC is better off without those types of people. 

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2 hours ago, Stingray~~ said:

You’re kidding, right - Where do you wanna start? How about with their own lawsuits filed against Ernesto in the NYSC? Follow through to AC34 SF where GD declared 360 deg ‘all out warfare’ on all fronts including legal. They had by his admission his attack-dog lawyers on standby in both Bermuda and back in NZ during even AC35 Bermuda.

Potential Challs do need to be worried. BA has already suggested as  much, with his caveat about entering on condition that certain Protocol conditions be amended first.

Remember, Lawyers are the reason Multihulls exist in the Americas Cup in the first place. And when it comes to self defense, what better defense than a good offence. End of the day, you're only going to get punished if you're breaking the rules, and they got punished, so what does that tell you? It wasn't Dalton who was in the wrong. 

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5 hours ago, rh2600 said:

I think sclarke was mainly addressing your mention of 'quality' of AC being compromised by these people not participating. His point is, and I agree, that they are mainly made up of low-quality losers - albeit rich ones. Just the type of people AC is best without.

Enjoy!

Instead of focusing on the owners, how about focusing on the potential sailors. If you asked the ETNZ team to name the best 10 sailors other than their own team, you would probably find that most of that list will be sailing the AC50 circuit if it happens.

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5 hours ago, rh2600 said:

 His point is, and I agree, that they are mainly made up of low-quality losers - albeit rich ones.

If rumour is to believed, that includes two team owners who each won the AC twice and another who made it as far as the Challenger finals. Low quality?

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41 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Instead of focusing on the owners, how about focusing on the potential sailors. If you asked the ETNZ team to name the best 10 sailors other than their own team, you would probably find that most of that list will be sailing the AC50 circuit if it happens.

Because the owners decide whether those potential sailors compete or not, and why. Take Oracle for example, if Larry decides he doesn't want to compete for whatever reason, No Oracle Team USA. Ernesto decided not to enter Alinghi in the Americas Cup, No Alinghi in the Americas Cup. Torbjorn Tornquist decides he doesn't want to compete in the Americas Cup, No Artemis Racing. If the owners say "sorry boys, not keen" there is no team. And if those guys are truly the best guys, there's nothing stopping them competing in the Americas Cup, so the personal preference of the ETNZ team is irrelevant.

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6 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

If rumour is to believed, that includes two team owners who each won the AC twice and another who made it as far as the Challenger finals. Low quality?

Quality as in sportsmanship. Sports qualities. Not achievements qualities. Donald Trump is hugely successful, rich and now powerful, but that doesn't mean he's not a complete asshole.

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21 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Quality as in sportsmanship. Sports qualities. Not achievements qualities. Donald Trump is hugely successful, rich and now powerful, but that doesn't mean he's not a complete asshole.

you're calling TT an asshole?

 

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7 hours ago, inebriated said:

you're calling TT an asshole?

 

I called Donald Trump an Asshole. 

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13 hours ago, sclarke said:

And if those guys are truly the best guys, there's nothing stopping them competing in the Americas Cup,

You really are full of shit. Please tell us how this works. I am pretty confident that there will be a good number of "the best guys" who do not get places on teams this time around. I will stick my neck out and say that Outteridge, Slingsby and most of the Australians that have been touted as such a great potential team don't get jobs, plus the likes of Percy and Goodison. What's stopping them? The lack of teams, the high budgets needed for a team and the nationality rule. The sailors do not hold their futures in their own hands.

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

You really are full of shit. Please tell us how this works. I am pretty confident that there will be a good number of "the best guys" who do not get places on teams this time around. I will stick my neck out and say that Outteridge, Slingsby and most of the Australians that have been touted as such a great potential team don't get jobs, plus the likes of Percy and Goodison. What's stopping them? The lack of teams, the high budgets needed for a team and the nationality rule. The sailors do not hold their futures in their own hands.

All they had to do was convince their bosses that they were good enough to win the thing back, then they get their way. Maybe their bosses don't have as much faith in them to win as they should? You can guarantee if ETNZ had not won in Bermuda, they would be back as many times as they had to, until they did, as is LRBAR. 

Budgets, well, budgets have ALWAYS been astronomical, so nothing has changed in that aspect, that would NOT have changed, even if they had've continued with the AC50. People will spend what they want to win, regardless of any cost reduction policies.

Its not about the size of the budget, its about how you spend it. ETNZ proved that. 

The Nationality rule brings back the sporting aspect of sailing. Fans can invest themselves in the sport when they feel a sense of national pride. 

This isn't about Nationality rules, budgets, lack of teams, if it is, they only have themselves to blame, as it is Oracle and friends who have created the environment in which the AC exists. This is about a bunch of rich guys who got their butts whooped throwing their toys out of the cot and attempting to hold the Cup to ransom. In Bermuda, all of these billionaires spouted intentions of wanting to "win the Americas Cup" it seems since they were all smacked while the world watched,  they've all had a change of heart.  The mark of a real champion is how they get back up after a loss. If these guys have the ability to enter but don't want to because its not on their terms, thats their problem, the AC won't miss them, you get your terms when you win. 

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48 minutes ago, sclarke said:

This is about a bunch of rich guys who got their butts whooped throwing their toys out of the cot and attempting to hold the Cup to ransom.

Maybe this a about ‘a bunch of rich guys who’ prefer to continue progressing and racing AC50’s? Could be just that simple.

Nobody can ‘hold the Cup to ransom’ - the Defender/CoR is largely free to do whatever they like - which they have.

Me, I wish more would enter since more AC campaigns is better for a lot of people when the spend is big.

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On 1/17/2018 at 8:47 AM, ~HHN92~ said:

I feel the big money is not all that excited about some far-out foiling platform

The boat is for sure radical and my hope was that it would be an attraction instead of a deterrent but I suspect you’re right.

The real problem looks to be the years-ago secret deal done with LR to go ‘mono’ - with the surprising and bizarre result, after seeing foiling light on fire, being a beast that ‘looks like it wants to crawl up on a beach and lay eggs.’ (lol) - James Boyd from The Daily Sail.

 

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22 hours ago, Stingray~~ said:

You’re kidding, right - Where do you wanna start? How about with their own lawsuits filed against Ernesto in the NYSC? Follow through to AC34 SF where GD declared 360 deg ‘all out warfare’ on all fronts including legal. They had by his admission his attack-dog lawyers on standby in both Bermuda and back in NZ during even AC35 Bermuda.

Potential Challs do need to be worried. BA has already suggested as  much, with his caveat about entering on condition that certain Protocol conditions be amended first.

You said *aggressive* - which is an unusual and suprising description of Kiwi sportsmanship and frankly much of the Kiwi demeanour.

aggressive əˈɡrɛsɪv (adjective); ready or likely to attack or confront; characterized by or resulting from aggression.

Both examples you cite, ETNZ was not the aggressor, but the defender... and once attacked, yes then expect the full noise in response - perhaps it feels more strong when it comes from a typically calm and passive source, perhaps if feels less strong when it comes from the bluster and talk and posturing that is more common in US and AU sporting conduct (horses for courses).

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29 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

You said *aggressive* - which is an unusual and suprising description of Kiwi sportsmanship and frankly much of the Kiwi demeanour.

aggressive əˈɡrɛsɪv (adjective); ready or likely to attack or confront; characterized by or resulting from aggression.

Both examples you cite, ETNZ was not the aggressor, but the defender... and once attacked, yes then expect the full noise in response - perhaps it feels more strong when it comes from a typically calm and passive source, perhaps if feels less strong when it comes from the bluster and talk and posturing that is more common in US and AU sporting conduct (horses for courses).

Anyone could easily Google search the aggressive moves, protests, charges, accusations thrown by ETNZ against almost all opponents starting since 2007.

The reputation for how they have played the game is obvious enough without needing to bother writing an essay on the subject. Winning matters but how you play the game does too.

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~~ said:

Anyone could easily Google search the aggressive moves, protests, charges, accusations thrown by ETNZ against almost all opponents starting since 2007.

The reputation for how they have played the game is obvious enough without needing to bother writing an essay on the subject. Winning matters but how you play the game does too.

That's pure gold

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7 minutes ago, Stingray~~ said:

Anyone could easily Google search the aggressive moves, protests, charges, accusations thrown by ETNZ against almost all opponents starting since 2007.

The reputation for how they have played the game is obvious enough without needing to bother writing an essay on the subject. Winning matters but how you play the game does too.

Why don't you just tell us about these Aggressive moves etc thrown by ETNZ?

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10 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Why don't you just tell us about these Aggressive moves etc thrown by ETNZ?

If you really are looking for a great example, Google the ETNZ nasty attacks against Artemis about proposed safety and rudder wings during AC34 SF. It was very, very ugly.. Would you want to enter a competition and spend hundreds of millions, where that same legally aggressive team now wields control?

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~~ said:

If you really are looking for a great example, Google the ETNZ attacks against Artemis about proposed safety and rudder wings during AC34 SF. It was very, very ugly..

I don't want to google it, I want you to explain it to me.

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~~ said:

If you really are looking for a great example, Google the ETNZ attacks against Artemis about proposed safety and rudder wings during AC34 SF. It was very, very ugly..

Sure thing bud - just copied your text and got these results...

5a613e0c1b13c_ScreenShot2018-01-19at1_37_21PM.png.2698fbcadfc974e237b00fa0909812a4.png

ETNZ sound pretty aggressive there mate....?!

Anyways I'm off to Google chemtrails and flat earth too coz then I'll know they are real...

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16 minutes ago, Stingray~~ said:

Google the ETNZ nasty attacks against Artemis about proposed safety and rudder wings during AC34 SF. It was very, very ugly..

You're off your meds or something :rolleyes:

 

What was ugly was Artemis' criminally negligently designed/built boat disaster and Orifices scurrilous attempt to hijack that to change the rules in a way that would allow them to get galloping gertie to foil properly.

ETNZ rightly strenuously defended their safe & performing design advantage to the existing rule.

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 Paul Cayard had harsh words for GD over that altercation but again: Pretty much every team you can name has gotten the same aggressive treatment over the past two Cups. Except for LR, somehow..

How is this long, agresssive track record history against everyone supposed to be an enticement to anyone to risk a Challenge, when the same attack-dogs at ETNZ are now fully in control? 

Ainslie already hinted at it being a big problem with the AC36 Protocol. 

 

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1 hour ago, Stingray~~ said:

 Paul Cayard had harsh words for GD over that altercation but again: Pretty much every team you can name has gotten the same aggressive treatment over the past two Cups. Except for LR, somehow..

How is this long, agresssive track record history against everyone supposed to be an enticement to anyone to risk a Challenge, when the same attack-dogs at ETNZ are now fully in control? 

Ainslie already hinted at it being a big problem with the AC36 Protocol. 

 

Paul Cayard had harsh words, because he needed a scapegoat to take the heat off himself! He'd already fired a highly respected skipper in Terry Hutchinson, employed a designer who had next to no experience designing multihulls, and had a boat break and kill a crew member. Now, again, what aggressive treatment are you talking about? Explain it, because your first example was incorrect. What attack dogs? When did they attack? I'm starting to think this is all Fake News. 

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In AC34 SF ETNZ loudly attacked a proposal to temporarily help Big Blue, rudders-wing-wise. They also insinuated that OR was trying to break that Rule.

What other team was that agressive?

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25 minutes ago, Stingray~~ said:

In AC34 SF ETNZ loudly attacked a proposal to temporarily help Big Blue, rudders-wing-wise. They also insinuated that OR was trying to break that Rule.

What other team was that agressive?

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Americas-Cup--Illegal-rudder-move-seems-destined-for-Jury-or-Court/111211?source=google.co.nz

They didn't insinuate anything. They just knew they had designed a boat within the class rule that was safe, and it was widely believed Oracle had been training with Adjustable rudder elevators which were illegal at the time, but would've been made legal by a class rule change recommended by Iain Murray. Iain Murray did not have the power to alter the class rule, but recommended it be changed anyway. As it was, Big Blue was allowed to race out of class, which came with full approval from all teams including ETNZ, so there was no "Attack dog" there was no "Attack" at all. If anything it was self defense! Dalton was asked to agree to and accept anything and everything with a smile on his face, even if it was detrimental to his own team. An effective CEO does not let himself or his team be walked over.

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Do you believe the shit you write or are you as dumb as you make out?

7 hours ago, sclarke said:

All they had to do was convince their bosses that they were good enough to win the thing back, then they get their way.

Probably one of the most stupid comments on SA for a while. Everybody knows that the likes of Nathan Outteridge are good enough to win the AC, but as ETNZ has shown many times, having the best or good enough sailors doesn't make a team a winner. The ETNZ sailors could not have won the last AC on, say, the Artemis boat while you can bet that the Artemis sailors could have won on the ETNZ boat. This is why a series with equalised AC50's is so interesting. Shame that the ETNZ sailors won't be there if it happens, meaning we will never know whether they were the best AC50 sailors or not. They clearly weren't the best in the ACWS

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11 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Do you believe the shit you write or are you as dumb as you make out?

Probably one of the most stupid comments on SA for a while. Everybody knows that the likes of Nathan Outteridge are good enough to win the AC, but as ETNZ has shown many times, having the best or good enough sailors doesn't make a team a winner. The ETNZ sailors could not have won the last AC on, say, the Artemis boat while you can bet that the Artemis sailors could have won on the ETNZ boat. This is why a series with equalised AC50's is so interesting. Shame that the ETNZ sailors won't be there if it happens, meaning we will never know whether they were the best AC50 sailors or not. They clearly weren't the best in the ACWS

I think the Artemis sailors are good but not as good as you suggest .. When the Artemis sailors have competed in equal boats such as the 49ers Moths and 18 foot cats ETNZ sailors have mainly beaten them.

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Just now, Terry Hollis said:

I think the Artemis sailors are good but not as good as you suggest .. When the Artemis sailors have competed in equal boats such as the 49ers Moths and 18 foot cats ETNZ sailors have mainly beaten them.

well they beat TNZ in nearly all the prestarts when in the LV final, and in the ACWS as stated before

and I think you will find that most instances when the sailors have gone against one another in similar boats, the Artemis sailors weren't focused on the class in contention

Paul Goodison is a great sailor, however not many would say that he is better than the likes of Slingsby, Burling and Outteridge

he still won moth worlds though, because Slingsby, Burling and Outteridge were focusing on the AC, not moths

another example is the 49ers, Outteridge and Jensen could have put the skiffs before AC, just like Burling and Tuke did and they could have comfortably stayed on top of the competition

however, Artemis got straight into their AC campaign and TNZ eased into it a bit more, causing a difference of priority between the two pairs

the fact of the matter is, the faste boat allways wins the cup. and while i sure couldent win the cup on that boat, i'd say all of the other AC sailing teams could have.

the real value of a great sailor like Burling or Tuke is the tuning of the boat and the refinement of the systems, that is a task that not all AC sailing teams could do

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

Do you believe the shit you write or are you as dumb as you make out?

Probably one of the most stupid comments on SA for a while. Everybody knows that the likes of Nathan Outteridge are good enough to win the AC, but as ETNZ has shown many times, having the best or good enough sailors doesn't make a team a winner. The ETNZ sailors could not have won the last AC on, say, the Artemis boat while you can bet that the Artemis sailors could have won on the ETNZ boat. This is why a series with equalised AC50's is so interesting. Shame that the ETNZ sailors won't be there if it happens, meaning we will never know whether they were the best AC50 sailors or not. They clearly weren't the best in the ACWS

Until they win the AC, they can't say they are good enough to win the Americas Cup. They are good, yes, but are they good enough to win the Americas Cup? that remains to be seen. I could say I am good enough to win the cup, but that doesn't mean I am. 

Again, who knows what may/ may not have happened. The ETNZ team had input into the concept of the boat, Ashby, Burling and Tuke were instrumental in some of the innovative concepts seen on the Kiwi boat. Maybe the Artemis boat would've been closer to the Kiwi boat in terms of concept if the ETNZ team were employed at Artemis Racing. And vice versa. It may have in fact been the input of the team which proved to be the key factor. If Percy and Outerridge were with ETNZ we may have seen a traditional coffee grinder, wing trimmer, Tactician, Helmsman set-up which woiuld've again lost to the Kiwis at Artemis who would've had all the innovative concepts seen.

And you're wrong, because THIS is quite possibly THE most STUPID comment SA has ever seen: "Shame that the ETNZ sailors won't be there if it happens, meaning we will never know whether they were the best AC50 sailors or not" CLEARLY THEY ARE BECAUSE THEY BEAT EVERYONE ELSE WHO EVER SAILED AGAINST THEM IN AN AC50. That makes them the best.

 

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1 hour ago, inebriated said:

well they beat TNZ in nearly all the prestarts when in the LV final, and in the ACWS as stated before

and I think you will find that most instances when the sailors have gone against one another in similar boats, the Artemis sailors weren't focused on the class in contention

Paul Goodison is a great sailor, however not many would say that he is better than the likes of Slingsby, Burling and Outteridge

he still won moth worlds though, because Slingsby, Burling and Outteridge were focusing on the AC, not moths

another example is the 49ers, Outteridge and Jensen could have put the skiffs before AC, just like Burling and Tuke did and they could have comfortably stayed on top of the competition

however, Artemis got straight into their AC campaign and TNZ eased into it a bit more, causing a difference of priority between the two pairs

the fact of the matter is, the faste boat allways wins the cup. and while i sure couldent win the cup on that boat, i'd say all of the other AC sailing teams could have.

the real value of a great sailor like Burling or Tuke is the tuning of the boat and the refinement of the systems, that is a task that not all AC sailing teams could do

Enough with the comparisons of teams if the boats were swapped. The fact is there is NO WAY the same boats would have been produced by opposite teams, Why? because the Kiwi team were instrumental in the design and implementation of innovative concepts on their boat. Its the thinking that is different. If the teams were swapped, the ideology, thinking and design would've been swapped too, and we would've seen the same result swapped, Ashby, Burling, Tuke, Van Velthoven, Junior and Maloney at Artemis winning, and Outteridge, Jensen, Percy, Parkinson, Brittle and Kamp at ETNZ losing) thats the only other way it could've happened. 

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Until they win the AC, they can't say they are good enough to win the Americas Cup. They are good, yes, but are they good enough to win the Americas Cup? that remains to be seen. I could say I am good enough to win the cup, but that doesn't mean I am. 

Again, who knows what may/ may not have happened. The ETNZ team had input into the concept of the boat, Ashby, Burling and Tuke were instrumental in some of the innovative concepts seen on the Kiwi boat. Maybe the Artemis boat would've been closer to the Kiwi boat in terms of concept if the ETNZ team were employed at Artemis Racing. And vice versa. It may have in fact been the input of the team which proved to be the key factor. If Percy and Outerridge were with ETNZ we may have seen a traditional coffee grinder, wing trimmer, Tactician, Helmsman set-up which woiuld've again lost to the Kiwis at Artemis who would've had all the innovative concepts seen.

And you're wrong, because THIS is quite possibly THE most STUPID comment SA has ever seen: "Shame that the ETNZ sailors won't be there if it happens, meaning we will never know whether they were the best AC50 sailors or not" CLEARLY THEY ARE BECAUSE THEY BEAT EVERYONE ELSE WHO EVER SAILED AGAINST THEM IN AN AC50. That makes them the best.

 

He's actually right @A Class Sailor your comment was much, much more stupid... in all honesty not I've come to expect from you...

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5 hours ago, Stingray~~ said:

 Paul Cayard had harsh words for GD over that altercation but again: Pretty much every team you can name has gotten the same aggressive treatment over the past two Cups. Except for LR, somehow..

How is this long, agresssive track record history against everyone supposed to be an enticement to anyone to risk a Challenge, when the same attack-dogs at ETNZ are now fully in control? 

Ainslie already hinted at it being a big problem with the AC36 Protocol. 

 

I suggest you read up a bit on AC history, and you'll find amongst a significantly assertive and litigious breed of competitors that are commonplace in over a century of the cup ETNZ is on the extreme end of successful competitors that leave their action for on the water first, unless dragged into a fight on land, in which case they'll bring it.

To suggest otherwise is a fucking laughable attempt at "alternative facts" - go for your life, but no-one is with you on this...

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Just now, sclarke said:

Enough with the comparisons of teams if the boats were swapped. The fact is there is NO WAY the same boats would have been produced by opposite teams, Why? because the Kiwi team were instrumental in the design and implementation of innovative concepts on their boat. Its the thinking that is different. If the teams were swapped, the ideology, thinking and design would've been swapped too, and we would've seen the same result swapped, Ashby, Burling, Tuke, Van Velthoven, Junior and Maloney at Artemis winning, and Outteridge, Jensen, Percy, Parkinson, Brittle and Kamp at ETNZ losing) thats the only other way it could've happened. 

yeah, i was getting to that on the last line of my post

although i think you overestimate how much the sailing team contributes to the design process

yes, they contribute a whole heck of a lot, but much of the kiwi's innovative design was forged through the designer's expertise and also the situation after AC34 that brought the mindset "throw the ball as far as we can". 

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5 minutes ago, inebriated said:

yeah, i was getting to that on the last line of my post

although i think you overestimate how much the sailing team contributes to the design process

yes, they contribute a whole heck of a lot, but much of the kiwi's innovative design was forged through the designer's expertise and also the situation after AC34 that brought the mindset "throw the ball as far as we can". 

Just illuminates how little you know mate...

You're new, so maybe pop-off and do some reading and research to learn the role of Burling, Tuke and Ashby in the design of the boat, and then come back eh...

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Just now, rh2600 said:

Just illuminates how little you know mate...

You're new, so maybe pop-off and do some reading and research to learn the role of Burling, Tuke and Ashby in the design of the boat, and then come back eh...

ah no, another one of those

image.png.03a57bd810ae38e333ef06af977c3b65.png

it would be great if some of the TNZ supporters would please get a more original mindset than "whatever TNZ does is flawless"

yes, they are a successful team resultswise

yes, they won the latest AC

but it is simply unrealistic to think that everything they do is a gift sent down from god

i really respect TNZ for what they have achieved, but i am not so ignorant to believe that they aren't aggressive towards other syndicates that dont gift them money, that their holy Burling-Tuke-Ashby trinity of goodness was more important to the design process than the design team themselves, and the there was a Herbie that won oracle their cup

so go on, prove me right and downvote this indio and friends

i'm just a bit sick of people believing something is true, just because they think that they are obliged to because they support a ceartain team,be it Oracle, TNZ or Artemis. theres no shame in picking and choosing decisions made by your team that you agree with.

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1 minute ago, inebriated said:

ah no, another one of those

image.png.03a57bd810ae38e333ef06af977c3b65.png

it would be great if some of the TNZ supporters would please get a more original mindset than "whatever TNZ does is flawless"

yes, they are a successful team resultswise

yes, they won the latest AC

but it is simply unrealistic to think that everything they do is a gift sent down from god

i really respect TNZ for what they have achieved, but i am not so ignorant to believe that they aren't aggressive towards other syndicates that dont gift them money, that their holy Burling-Tuke-Ashby trinity of goodness was more important to the design process than the design team themselves, and the there was a Herbie that won oracle their cup

so go on, prove me right and downvote this indio and friends

i'm just a bit sick of people believing something is true, just because they think that they are obliged to because they support a ceartain team,be it Oracle, TNZ or Artemis. theres no shame in picking and choosing decisions made by your team that you agree with.

Either you are sick after 3 days of SA (in which case I'd suggest Reddit or something) or you are just a sock?

Your argument is based on your assessment of how much someone else estimated the role of sailing team in the design process - how do you know what their estimation is? What a pointless argument...

But then you go on to directly quote a phrase and philosophy, and the fact that it was coined as a result of AC34 as an argument for why it wasn't the sailors - yet you fail to know that that quote, and philosophy was from fucking Gashby, when he was sitting pretty much fucking alone back in Auckland trying to rebuild ETNZ, after the pain *he* felt during AC34 - essentially a blow-by-blow complete teardown of your own argument. Great work.

Then you go on to assert that anyone that points out your lack of a clue is blind ETNZ disciple - nice try... on iggy you go... didn't take long...

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Just now, rh2600 said:

Either you are sick after 3 days of SA (in which case I'd suggest Reddit or something) or you are just a sock?

Your argument is based on your assessment of how much someone else estimated the role of sailing team in the design process - how do you know what their estimation is? What a pointless argument...

But then you go on to directly quote a phrase and philosophy, and the fact that it was coined as a result of AC34 as an argument for why it wasn't the sailors - yet you fail to know that that quote, and philosophy was from fucking Gashby, when he was sitting pretty much fucking alone back in Auckland trying to rebuild ETNZ, after the pain *he* felt during AC34 - essentially a blow-by-blow complete teardown of your own argument. Great work.

Then you go on to assert that anyone that points out your lack of a clue is blind ETNZ disciple - nice try... on iggy you go... didn't take long...

no, i've been on here for a while, just i only now have bothered to get an account, and i can now see why

first off, my argument is not based on my assessment of someone else's estimate, i was stating that my own estimate was a whole lot different to sclarkes, which i'd say you'd agree on. oh, wait. i'm a non believer, you CANT agree with me

and if you would like to be really technical then yes, the phrase and philosophy was made by Gashby,although i was under the impression that you didn't have 5 brain cells and that you could sense that when i was talking about the sailing team, i was referring to the sailing aspect of their roles. although I do admit, subtlety's do get lost through typing.

what i was trying to say, as that any AC35 helmsman could have jumped into Burling's seat and won the AC from jimmy, the same goes for foil and wing trimmer, although a few days of practice would be needed.

it looks to me as though you're seeing red after someone dares insult your favourite team

and frankly, i cant be fucked arguing with you anymore, it reminds me of arguing with someone with a social disorder

sure, what they say back may contain a fair few facts in it

but i'll be fucked if they have the social awareness to realise that what they're saying is actually addressing my point

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4 hours ago, inebriated said:

well they beat TNZ in nearly all the prestarts when in the LV final, and in the ACWS as stated before

What a fucking dumb comment!! How did they do after "winning the pre-starts"?? I'll tell you what happened - they got their butts kicked by ETNZ running over them at will, from behind!!

 

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Just now, Indio said:

What a fucking dumb comment!! How did they do after "winning the pre-starts"?? I'll tell you what happened - they got their butts kicked by ETNZ running over them at will, from behind!!

 

ah

i was actually making a statement about the skill level within the Artemis sailing team, particularly Nathan Outteridge and Iain Percy

while ETNZ "running over" Artemis "at will" is partially due to the skill of the sailors (predominantly wing trimmer), i think that most would agree that the design package makes the biggest difference in boatspeed, assuming that is what you are referring to in your post

in a Pre-start, the boat's speed matters a lot less, and the skill of the helmsman and tactician (if applicable) becomes much more important to the outcome of the start

it would have been nice if you had read my earlier and later comments and taken them into account when making such a rude comment

but i cant complain too much

after all, this is anarchy

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^ I like your thinking there mate, the longer everyone else goes on with that level of assessment the better :D

So warm welcome and let's hope an Ozzie team comes together soon.....

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10 hours ago, inebriated said:

ah no, another one of those

image.png.03a57bd810ae38e333ef06af977c3b65.png

it would be great if some of the TNZ supporters would please get a more original mindset than "whatever TNZ does is flawless"

yes, they are a successful team resultswise

yes, they won the latest AC

but it is simply unrealistic to think that everything they do is a gift sent down from god

i really respect TNZ for what they have achieved, but i am not so ignorant to believe that they aren't aggressive towards other syndicates that dont gift them money, that their holy Burling-Tuke-Ashby trinity of goodness was more important to the design process than the design team themselves, and the there was a Herbie that won oracle their cup

so go on, prove me right and downvote this indio and friends

i'm just a bit sick of people believing something is true, just because they think that they are obliged to because they support a ceartain team,be it Oracle, TNZ or Artemis. theres no shame in picking and choosing decisions made by your team that you agree with.

No ones saying anyone is perfect, because no one is. But the talk of "Aggressive" is BS. We've heard a few people say "They were aggressive towards every team" but we've never had a good example as to where, when or how. But it seems some just like to adopt the Trump mentality and say, I don't care if its true or not, but if I say it loud enough and long enough hopefully people I'll convince people that its true.

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And no one is more invested in that talking point than spin-boy.

I must say he has outdone himself up there ^, it's cute and rather amusing

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On 19/01/2018 at 3:25 AM, inebriated said:

 any AC35 helmsman could have jumped into Burling's seat and won the AC from jimmy, the same goes for foil and wing trimmer, although a few days of practice would be needed.

 

 

Correct.

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On 19/01/2018 at 1:44 AM, sclarke said:

Enough with the comparisons of teams if the boats were swapped. The fact is there is NO WAY the same boats would have been produced by opposite teams, Why? because the Kiwi team were instrumental in the design and implementation of innovative concepts on their boat. Its the thinking that is different. If the teams were swapped, the ideology, thinking and design would've been swapped too, and we would've seen the same result swapped, Ashby, Burling, Tuke, Van Velthoven, Junior and Maloney at Artemis winning, and Outteridge, Jensen, Percy, Parkinson, Brittle and Kamp at ETNZ losing) thats the only other way it could've happened. 

Yep, you are telling us that, instead of the boat, if we had swapped the design team with Verdier, Bernasconi and a few others, a European team would have won, and kiwis would not have made it to the LV :)

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yep, you are telling us that, instead of the boat, if we had swapped the design team with Verdier, Bernasconi and a few others, a European team would have won, and kiwis would not have made it to the LV :)

I'm saying there is so much talk that if crews were swapped any crew could have sailed the ETNZ boat to vioctory. Its a stupid statement because 1) no one can say that for sure, and 2) it was the input of the crew into the design that decided the direction the designers went. So you can also say, No, thats not true, because if the crews were swapped the results would be the same, because the designers would not have got the key input they did, so the design concept and direction would have been different.

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It’s true that, as the story goes, Gashby was instrumental in the early decisions about how they’d trim the AC50 wing and about the imperative to try using cyclors - both of which greatly affected the resulting design work.

But as with so many ‘which factor won the Cup?’ questions, like ‘sailors OR boat,’ the answers are not accurate because the question is wrong, the correct questions are not either/or propositions. It takes a lot of things to go well, even including ‘good juju’ - luck.

Back in the Clean interview GD was asked about the right ETNZ has in the Prot to 2-Boat test and about why OR didn’t bother with a second boat. His answer included something like ‘But they did have a second boat - SBTJ’ but that it didn’t help them because it was almost a mirror image and so no better, and then he said that what was even more key was (something like) ‘We had a fully automatic pilot and I can’t for the life of me understand why nobody else did.’ To me, the answer to that question may have been a belief by the other teams that ‘manual input’ extended to ‘manual thought’ and that ETNZ was simply much more ‘aggressive’ in their take on it, but regardless: that’s another contributing factor, somewhat analogous to the foiling in AC34, when the Rule seemed to try to forbid foiling, and a decision that almost contributed to a win for them that time too.

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Its clear Artemis had foils that were very capable for the first reach, so that helps a lot to make their pre-start prowess strong if the stats consider who made it to mark 1 first.  Many attribute this to skill, looked to me to be design decisions.  TNZ made most of their passes upwind and in accelerations out of gybes...they were clearly more optimized for upwind.  Try not to confuse skill with performance tradeoffs.

 

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7 minutes ago, Francisco said:

Its clear Artemis had foils that were very capable for the first reach, so that helps a lot to make their pre-start prowess strong if the stats consider who made it to mark 1 first.  Many attribute this to skill, looked to me to be design decisions.  TNZ made most of their passes upwind and in accelerations out of gybes...they were clearly more optimized for upwind.  Try not to confuse skill with performance tradeoffs.

 

Yes, most teams were faster than ETNZ on the reaching starts (the stats prove it) and maybe downwind too - in decently foiling, up-range wind conditions. The score line was 5-2 but AR had a MOB (while leading) and a bad ref call at the last mark in another race they would almost certainly have won. It was a very, very competitive series in those conditions - about as good as AR v SBTJ was in even faster conditions.

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11 minutes ago, Stingray~~ said:

Yes, most teams were faster than ETNZ on the reaching starts (the stats prove it) and maybe downwind too - in decently foiling, up-range wind conditions. The score line was 5-2 but AR had a MOB (while leading) and a bad ref call at the last mark in another race they would almost certainly have won. It was a very, very competitive series in those conditions - about as good as AR v SBTJ was in even faster conditions.

The bad ref call was in the round robins, not in the final.

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