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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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MidPack

Which countries can field teams with 80% nationality rule?

100 posts in this topic

There's something to be said for a meaningful nationality rule for the AC. And though obviously any country has enough people, how many can muster 80% world class design, boatbuilding, sailing crew, etc. necessary to be competitive and therefore attract funding? New Zealand, Australia, USA, GBR and maybe France or Italy?

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they basically already said it wouldnt be 80%

 

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I think Sweden, Switzerland, Netherlands and Spain could get pretty good teams, although compared to NZ or Aus, not really on the same level.  

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2 minutes ago, jonas a said:

I think Sweden, Switzerland, Netherlands and Spain could get pretty good teams, although compared to NZ or Aus, not really on the same level.  

Like I noted, any country has enough bodies, but getting the considerable funding for a team that really can't compete seems far fetched.

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Germany, Denmark, Argentina, Spain, Poland, Ireland, Brazil, Austria, Switzerland and Croatia

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GD said there would be a tiered approach so as not to turn away teams and also not to destroy a sailing industry. I think they'll have a flexible nationality rule with a two tiered approach to ensure if sailors don't get picked up by their country they are then free to sail for another one, but there will still be a need for that particular country to have at least 50% nationality for them and perhaps less for brand new teams...

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In fact it will probably mean more than one USA team will challenge as well....

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No USA team in the 49er medal race at the Olympics, or even close

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If the rules would remain somewhat similar, new teams could pick up last gen equipment and also there would be some interest for teams that have a more long term approach

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keep in mind, (if the boats stay the same)  you only need two true sailors. The other four ass sniffers could be gotten out of any decent cycling club around town...

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1 minute ago, Raked Aft\\ said:

keep in mind, (if the boats stay the same)  you only need two true sailors. The other four ass sniffers could be gotten out of any decent cycling club around town...

It won't stay the same, GD already said there is no way, and that the AC should be more than pumping oil around a boat!!

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I suspect that not too many would be competitive if it's literally 80% across the entire team.

If it's say 2/3rds of the _crew_, which seems more likely, then lots of countries could rustle up a plausible helmsman and a few punters at the front of the boat, to work with for example an int'l tactician and trimmer. That would seem to be a good way to let the "second tier" countries compete meaningfully.

Would be good to see an AU team in it. If the nationality rule includes the helm and ORA folds, an Outteridge / Slingsby team for example sounds threatening. And hell if NZ can fund a campaign surely AU can have a crack.

 

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... the problem with nationality for off-boat roles (and for constructed-in-country outside of large items) seems to me (on top of everything else) to be enforceability.

Question for the experts, has there in the past been a nationality rule for off boat roles?

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3 minutes ago, eurochild said:

I suspect that not too many would be competitive if it's literally 80% across the entire team.

If it's say 2/3rds of the _crew_, which seems more likely, then lots of countries could rustle up a plausible helmsman and a few punters along with the boat, to work with for example an int'l tactician and trimmer. That would seem to be a good way to let the "second tier" countries compete meaningfully.

Would be good to see an AU team in it. If the nationality rule includes the helm and ORA folds, an Outteridge / Slingsby team for example sounds threatening. And hell if NZ can fund a campaign surely AU can have a crack.

 

I may be mistaken, but I take the nationality rule discussion to mean the entire team, not just the sailing crews we see.

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Outside of the sailing team it becomes impossible to enforce. 

All that will happen is teams 'sub-contract' build and design elements out rather than directly employing non-nationals. Then where would you draw the line with contractors? Are you going to check the catering firm aren't using immigrant staff? 

Somethings I like about the nationality rule as it makes a team identifiable so fans 'can get behind them'. But I also think the America's cup should be the best sailors. I'd hate to see some athletes missing out because they don't come from a country with a billionaire silly enough to fund a cup campaign.

Maybe there should be some sort of first refusal rule with prefixed sailor salary?

E.g. Aus get first refusal to sign Jimmy Spithill for X salary. If they don't want him, he's free to offer his services to other countries / teams. If Australia do want him, he can still be bought out by another team for a compensation fee. So USA could pay Aus $XXX to 'sign' him. You'd then end up with most the best sailors representing their own countries, and the best of the rest still getting a shot at a ride. Key players can still be poached, but for fair compensation.  

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nationality across the whole effort is bullshit. In case some here haven't noticed we live in a global interconnected world where designers, architects, engineers etc work world-wide, not just in their own country.  Similar for boatbuilding.  The skills are global. Who the fuck cares if a piece of carbon is built in Auckland or Ankara ?

This is a club to club challenge supposedly, so if anything, the owner should be a member of the challenging club (I know the NYYC never worried about that).  That aside, there is also enough talent around that the onboard crew could be national but why go further than that.  Even in the olympics boats, gear, coaches, support staff, you name it,  can come from other countries and no-one cares or says they should not be allowed.   

 

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IMHO, should be not rule,meaning country's should field as can be...which means, in essence a 100 percent rule. PC is bullroar and so is commercialized international professionalism.

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There is a vast difference between which countries could field a team under nationality rules and who could field a competitive team. Consider that we had a free for all this time around, where teams could buy in anybody they wanted. On each team there were 2 key positions (helm and wing) plus on some teams, a tactician or foil trimmer. If you take the 2 key positions, that makes 12 sailors and all but 2 of them came from either Australia (5), NZ (2) or UK (3). Add the important 3rd sailor and that was split between AUS, NZ and GBR as well. The one boat that didn't use sailors from those 3 countries were DFL.

Remember, these teams could draw sailors from anywhere, but they didn't. There simply is a very small pool of sailors who are good enough to be able to compete. Going into the next cup, if they remain in foiling cats, I predict that the only teams with a chance of winning will have the same key personnel as this time around. Guys like Burling, Outteridge, Ainslie, Ashby and Spithill come around once in a generation and there is nobody clearly knocking in the door at the moment. Add their "sidekicks" such as Goobs, Percy, Tuke, Scott and Slingsby and you have the core sailors of the next edition. I suspect history will view this as a "golden age" where the very best have come together like at no other time before. The issue is that they now have such a head start over anybody coming in that it will take a few cycles for others to catch up. Even now, I would place a reasonable bet that both defender and challenger will have 2 from that list on board.

All of this means that if the nationality clause is too onerous, it condemns teams to being second best and it could make some of the best unemployed. If they get it right, I will applaud, but it is the biggest tool the defender could use to tip the balance in their favour.

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BA should hand over the helm to Giles Scott. He owes him one for taking is spot for London in order to set medal records.

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17 minutes ago, rgeek said:

BA should hand over the helm to Giles Scott. He owes him one for taking is spot for London in order to set medal records.

That is crap. Ben was better than Giles. It is that simple and why he got the slot. Even Ben was made to prove it at world level before he was selected. How many times did Giles beat Ben at a regatta? I am pretty sure it was none unless you count when Ben was chucked from the Gold Cup he was leading. Giles also knows that he would never have won gold if it had not been for all the work Ben did and if he hadn't been part of Ben's training group. Giles's reward was 2016.

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Dalton has already said 80% is too high, so where is  this coming from?

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Dalton has already said 80% is too high, so where is  this coming from?

I am against any nationality rule. It's fools gold. It will not help increase interest and I believe that it restricts the ability of some of the existing teams and potent teams. For instance, Artemis will be screwed by any nationality clause. So will Oracle and SBTJ. Bringing in any nationality requirements would be a good way of killing off the most likely competitive challengers, other than completely changing boats to lead mines. But for now, let's see what they end up with. 

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5 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I am against any nationality rule. It's fools gold. It will not help increase interest and I believe that it restricts the ability of some of the existing teams and potent teams. For instance, Artemis will be screwed by any nationality clause. So will Oracle and SBTJ. Bringing in any nationality requirements would be a good way of killing off the most likely competitive challengers, other than completely changing boats to lead mines. But for now, let's see what they end up with. 

I like the idea of nationality in principle but in practice it just seems a nightmare we can do without. 

How can you realistically enforce it? Where you were born?  What about my friends who immigrated here when they were 5?

If you have a crew of 12 then all the grunts can be locals and all the high skilled roles can be foreigners. 

What do you achieve?  Fuck all.

Dont get me wrong. I would struggle to support etnz if it was full of foreigners like Orifice. But I don't think forcing these limitations on others is practical.

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What was the old nationality rule introduced by the Americans before Bertarelli did away with it?

Should they just re-instigate that?

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Just now, KoW said:

What was the old nationality rule introduced by the Americans before Bertarelli did away with it?

Should they just re-instigate that?

Once again what do you achieve when buying citizenship is dead easy.

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Lot of bullshit being spouted here;

Consider the opposite of a nationality clause, hired guns like we have now. Is the cup a professional league like F-1 or a competition between nations. Sound like a lot of you want a gravy train for the sailing elite. The AC is not as I recall about poor professional snowflakes who need a job.

As for the "best sailors in the world" yeah whatever... Even PB is replaceable or soon will be, its the nature of sport, talent and age for rising stars to rise.

The boat has to have mostly nationals onboard, how else do you "grow" a sailing culture except by giving people a go.

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13 minutes ago, KoW said:

What was the old nationality rule introduced by the Americans before Bertarelli did away with it?

Should they just re-instigate that?

How about you do some homework or even think before you post? Bertarelli did not get rid any nationality rule. You need to be the defender to do that and he "bought" his team of non swiss Sailors when he was a challenger. The nationality rule was history well before Bertarelli was on the scene or how else would he have been able to get started?:wacko:

The rule that NYYC brought in to make it hard for others to effectively challenge was that everybody in the team had to be from the challenging club's home country. They even tried to get Australia 2 chucked out because of claims it was designed in Holland rather than by Ben Lexcon (long story not worth going into here). In relation to the life of the cup, the nationality rule was a short lived thing and I would hope nobody would suggest bringing back  a 100% nationality rule.

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O.K., so how flipping' hard is it to drive one of these things? I can't believe it's so difficult only a handful of folks are born with that special gift none of the rest of us have, like Sebastian Vettel or Valentino Rossi. Seriously, if a syndicate can afford to make a helmsman a pro at $xxxk / yr, why can't they develop homegrown talent for these positions? We train folks out of college to fly F-18s and land them at night on pitching carrier decks. They take instruction, study, practice and come to have a functional understanding of the principles and engineering involved in their craft and can control it as well as it is humanly possible, all while being paid a lot less than the hired guns behind the wheels of the AC 50s. Same for tactics, which can be studied and practiced-- who's to say there aren't a LOT of folks capable of doing this at an AC level if they have the desire and support of a syndicate which has them do that for a living?

As for nationality being problematic, that's no reason to abandon it as a goal-- if it's important, figure out a way to make it work as best you can. 

It was hard to root for Oracle just because I'd rather root for an American team than a corporation. Sure, corporate $ feed the syndicates, but with OTUSA, the corporation WAS the syndicate. It was great that ETNZ was crewed exclusively by Kiwis (bar one Aussie, albeit an important one) and I hope an American syndicate can put together a really American team. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

That is crap. Ben was better than Giles. It is that simple and why he got the slot. Even Ben was made to prove it at world level before he was selected. How many times did Giles beat Ben at a regatta? I am pretty sure it was none unless you count when Ben was chucked from the Gold Cup he was leading. Giles also knows that he would never have won gold if it had not been for all the work Ben did and if he hadn't been part of Ben's training group. Giles's reward was 2016

51 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I am against any nationality rule. It's fools gold. It will not help increase interest and I believe that it restricts the ability of some of the existing teams and potent teams. For instance, Artemis will be screwed by any nationality clause. So will Oracle and SBTJ. Bringing in any nationality requirements would be a good way of killing off the most likely competitive challengers, other than completely changing boats to lead mines. But for now, let's see what they end up with. 

Well said

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All can!!!

But why? It is not a regatta where teams are nationally selected and represent a country. Its A PRIVATE EVENT using countries to bludge money for a host.

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19 hours ago, jonas a said:

If the rules would remain somewhat similar, new teams could pick up last gen equipment and also there would be some interest for teams that have a more long term approach

They'd be just making up the numbers. The sailing competition would be even more one-sided than the AC35 RR's and the Match proved to be.

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23 hours ago, Auld Mug said:

All can!!!

But why? It is not a regatta where teams are nationally selected and represent a country. Its A PRIVATE EVENT using countries to bludge money for a host.

This Cup is donated upon the condition that it shall be preserved as a perpetual challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries.

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On 28/06/2017 at 0:11 AM, ColinG said:

nationality across the whole effort is bullshit. In case some here haven't noticed we live in a global interconnected world where designers, architects, engineers etc work world-wide, not just in their own country.  Similar for boatbuilding.  The skills are global. Who the fuck cares if a piece of carbon is built in Auckland or Ankara ?

This is a club to club challenge supposedly, so if anything, the owner should be a member of the challenging club (I know the NYYC never worried about that).  That aside, there is also enough talent around that the onboard crew could be national but why go further than that.  Even in the olympics boats, gear, coaches, support staff, you name it,  can come from other countries and no-one cares or says they should not be allowed.   

 

Agree, and I don't think GD will set the nationality very wide beyond the people on the boat. Certainly we can't rely on team principles (ETNZ has an italian right?), but if we want to grow and foster the sport across the world its probably positive to have nationality in it to a certain degree.

At the end of the day, like it or not, for NZers this is a nationhood thing, so as cupholders this will be a significant part of our plan. For other countries less so, and fair enough too... when they get the cup, they can have their own entirely valid perspective influence it...

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On 28/06/2017 at 10:36 AM, Team_GBR said:

There is a vast difference between which countries could field a team under nationality rules and who could field a competitive team. Consider that we had a free for all this time around, where teams could buy in anybody they wanted. On each team there were 2 key positions (helm and wing) plus on some teams, a tactician or foil trimmer. If you take the 2 key positions, that makes 12 sailors and all but 2 of them came from either Australia (5), NZ (2) or UK (3). Add the important 3rd sailor and that was split between AUS, NZ and GBR as well. The one boat that didn't use sailors from those 3 countries were DFL.

Remember, these teams could draw sailors from anywhere, but they didn't. There simply is a very small pool of sailors who are good enough to be able to compete. Going into the next cup, if they remain in foiling cats, I predict that the only teams with a chance of winning will have the same key personnel as this time around. Guys like Burling, Outteridge, Ainslie, Ashby and Spithill come around once in a generation and there is nobody clearly knocking in the door at the moment. Add their "sidekicks" such as Goobs, Percy, Tuke, Scott and Slingsby and you have the core sailors of the next edition. I suspect history will view this as a "golden age" where the very best have come together like at no other time before. The issue is that they now have such a head start over anybody coming in that it will take a few cycles for others to catch up. Even now, I would place a reasonable bet that both defender and challenger will have 2 from that list on board.

All of this means that if the nationality clause is too onerous, it condemns teams to being second best and it could make some of the best unemployed. If they get it right, I will applaud, but it is the biggest tool the defender could use to tip the balance in their favour.

well spoken ^ ;

Many interesting thoughts  in this  thread

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On 6/28/2017 at 3:59 PM, bwwooster said:

O.K., so how flipping' hard is it to drive one of these things? I can't believe it's so difficult only a handful of folks are born with that special gift none of the rest of us have, like Sebastian Vettel or Valentino Rossi. 

Another clueless one. These boats are by far the hardest boats to helm that there have ever been. Did you see what happened with Artemis when Outteridge went overboard. Despite having 2 gold medal sailors with loads of experience and 3 others who aren't exactly inexperienced, they stick their best man on and after abut 15 seconds of near disaster, the skipper pulled the plug and stopped foiling and cruises home. It really is so difficult that only a few could get one around a course in all conditions and even less are good enough to be able to race one competitively. Even the very best got it wrong as we saw with the ETNZ capsize, BAR "body slam", Oracle capsized in training etc. etc. Take your "average" Olympic sailor and it would be a miracle if they didn't destroy the boat and maybe hurt people.

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On 6/27/2017 at 11:09 PM, eurochild said:

I suspect that not too many would be competitive if it's literally 80% across the entire team.

If it's say 2/3rds of the _crew_, which seems more likely, then lots of countries could rustle up a plausible helmsman and a few punters at the front of the boat, to work with for example an int'l tactician and trimmer. That would seem to be a good way to let the "second tier" countries compete meaningfully.

Would be good to see an AU team in it. If the nationality rule includes the helm and ORA folds, an Outteridge / Slingsby team for example sounds threatening. And hell if NZ can fund a campaign surely AU can have a crack.

 

Either Paul Cayard, Ed Baird  USA could lead a USA team and get a team of US Sailors --no problem 

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On ‎28‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 7:18 AM, jaysper said:

I like the idea of nationality in principle but in practice it just seems a nightmare we can do without. 

How can you realistically enforce it? Where you were born?  What about my friends who immigrated here when they were 5?

If you have a crew of 12 then all the grunts can be locals and all the high skilled roles can be foreigners. 

What do you achieve?  Fuck all.

Dont get me wrong. I would struggle to support etnz if it was full of foreigners like Orifice. But I don't think forcing these limitations on others is practical.

Regulation wise it would be easy. You should be citizen and resident in the country you are representing at the date of the previous AC. That means that you did not get a quick passport for the next AC. It also means that it doestn not matter where you where born. means that it is very fair and cheating is difficult and still does not discriminate any one.

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Just use the Olympic rules

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On 6/28/2017 at 5:56 AM, Team_GBR said:

That is crap. Ben was better than Giles. It is that simple and why he got the slot. Even Ben was made to prove it at world level before he was selected. How many times did Giles beat Ben at a regatta? I am pretty sure it was none unless you count when Ben was chucked from the Gold Cup he was leading. Giles also knows that he would never have won gold if it had not been for all the work Ben did and if he hadn't been part of Ben's training group. Giles's reward was 2016.

Not really crap. 

They were very close, many inside the camp thought Giles was faster leading up to 2012. Giles was on the up. They decided the selection at 2011 sail for gold where Ben won after a tight battle with Giles. I think if it had been any other sailor than Ben Ainslie, the trials would have run for another year to see if Giles could have pushed on and got stronger. 

Giles beat Ben in the last event they both did (UK Nationals) before 2012 Olympics and was told not to enter the worlds the week later. Giles had already beat Ben at Sail for Gold in 2012 as well.  

If the selection had been allowed to run in to 2012, like other classes where the decision was close, then I think Giles would have been selected. 

I also think that Ben's 2012 gold was more due to Giles, and Giles' training group continuing the development whilst Ben was away than Giles' 2016 being down to Ben. 

 

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^

I have a different memory of it and a different understanding of the selection criteria. Regarding selection, the system is set up to favour the early selection of past medal winners. Ben was selected because he was the dominant force in 2011. There would never have been an extension beyond than, because Ben had met all the criteria. It was that simple. I do not believe you can say that Scott would have overtaken Ben because once selected, you start campaigning to win at the Olympics and not before (if you do, that's an added bonus) which is why for sail for gold 2012, Ben raced with an experimental rig while Giles used the proven rig, all part of the plan. The reason why Giles didn't sail the Gold cup was because he was under contract to Team Korea for the AC45's and had agreed with Sparky (head of Team GBR) at the beginning of the season not to do the Gold Cup so he earn some money! Trying to stay in the AC game was seen as a more important thing than the Gold Cup in terms of career. He came back and helped Ben leading up to the games. As for it being Giles's training group, it had been Ben's since 2002 and it was still his even though he was absent for a while. Initially, in Ben's absence, the senior person was actually Ed Wright, not Giles, but Giles sailed his way into no. 2 spot to Ben in 2011.

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Its should be a 80% nationality payroll! That only 20% of a payroll can be for sailors/builder/shoreteam/admin/design from other countries. It would drive more dollars into each counties sailing industry, while still providing opportunities and a pay check for those in NZ and AUS. It would keep cost in check and allow the top tear countries to retain talent, while still providing a nice pay check (more modest then past) for those willing to travel.

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One hundred percent...simple. Not NASCAR or Soccer or some other professional bullroar. It is one special international competitive event, or was. Keep it up and it will become another honey-drop in the honey jar, indistinguishable from the rest. 

I hope the Kiwi crew returns to the long races in any weather on creacky keelers...and fixes the mess. We have watched a class act slowly discombobulate. Will it continue its trip to commonness, as have the Olympics, the USA and most things once esteemed?

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3 hours ago, vij said:

Regulation wise it would be easy. You should be citizen and resident in the country you are representing at the date of the previous AC. That means that you did not get a quick passport for the next AC. It also means that it doestn not matter where you where born. means that it is very fair and cheating is difficult and still does not discriminate any one.

+1

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http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/94071227/Americas-Cup-legend-Bruno-Trouble-ready-to-head-to-Auckland-if-Team-NZ-win

Bruno Trouble also warns that, if they become the defender, Team NZ should reinstate stricter nationality clauses into the Deed of Gift. That would dictate that a high percentage of team members would have to be from the team's country of origin, and would also relate to the design and build of the yachts.

"It was a big mistake in 2000 not to have a strict nationality rule; I told that to Peter Blake then. This is why you lost the Cup in 2003, when the mercenaries left Team NZ. It was a terrible move not to do that," he says.

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Add me +1

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

^

I have a different memory of it and a different understanding of the selection criteria. Regarding selection, the system is set up to favour the early selection of past medal winners. Ben was selected because he was the dominant force in 2011. There would never have been an extension beyond than, because Ben had met all the criteria. It was that simple. I do not believe you can say that Scott would have overtaken Ben because once selected, you start campaigning to win at the Olympics and not before (if you do, that's an added bonus) which is why for sail for gold 2012, Ben raced with an experimental rig while Giles used the proven rig, all part of the plan. The reason why Giles didn't sail the Gold cup was because he was under contract to Team Korea for the AC45's and had agreed with Sparky (head of Team GBR) at the beginning of the season not to do the Gold Cup so he earn some money! Trying to stay in the AC game was seen as a more important thing than the Gold Cup in terms of career. He came back and helped Ben leading up to the games. As for it being Giles's training group, it had been Ben's since 2002 and it was still his even though he was absent for a while. Initially, in Ben's absence, the senior person was actually Ed Wright, not Giles, but Giles sailed his way into no. 2 spot to Ben in 2011.

I take some of those points. I didn't know about the rig testing at 2012 sail for gold. 

But still many would consider Giles to be better Finn sailor in 2012 and the best in the world. Ben, by his own admission, was falling apart. Giles was getting stronger. Rightly or wrongly the selection process was aimed, like you said, to enable proven winners to gain early selection.

In then end Ainslie, won gold, and set history; but only just. I don't think his selection was as clear cut as you make out. And I certainly don't think stepping aside for 2016 was a gift from Ben to Giles. 

For 2008 the RYA let Ed Wright and Ainslie duke it out til very late. If Giles had been afforded the same opportunity then I believe he would have been at London, and won.  

Either way, I don't think Giles should replace Ainslie now as AC helm. Helm is probably the least physically demanding role on the boat, which takes away Giles's major advantage over Ben.  

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Simple is best. 100 %.

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How about a national language rule? If you require the teams to speak the language of the nation they represent on the race course?   The French were the only team not speaking English. 

The America's Cup isn't an equal opportunity employer.  The Aussies and Kiwis are very territorial and have very sharp elbows and give hiring preference to their mates. Make them learn Japanese if they want Japanese money.

SHC

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29 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

How about a national language rule? If you require the teams to speak the language of the nation they represent on the race course?   The French were the only team not speaking English. 

The America's Cup isn't an equal opportunity employer.  The Aussies and Kiwis are very territorial and have very sharp elbows and give hiring preference to their mates. Make them learn Japanese if they want Japanese money.

SHC

Wow, this rule will certainly help the USA. No national language = whole world to choose from. How about Team Guatemala? 25 official languages there...including English. 

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38 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

How about a national language rule? If you require the teams to speak the language of the nation they represent on the race course?   The French were the only team not speaking English. 

The America's Cup isn't an equal opportunity employer.  The Aussies and Kiwis are very territorial and have very sharp elbows and give hiring preference to their mates. Make them learn Japanese if they want Japanese money.

SHC

I just see this disadvantaging teams like France. Sailors from NZ, Aussie, UK, US etc. form a massive pool and to an extent those countries can 'share' sailors, while the e.g. French-speaking sailing world is much smaller. 

8 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

Wow, this rule will certainly help the USA. No national language = whole world to choose from. How about Team Guatemala? 25 official languages there...including English. 

+1

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On 27/06/2017 at 11:40 AM, rgeek said:

Germany, Denmark, Argentina, Spain, Poland, Ireland, Brazil, Austria, Switzerland and Croatia

As Austria & Switzerland are landlocked they shouldn't be able to enter a team. I can't see that mistake being made again.

But then it's unfair on the sailors from those countries if they are excluded from the cup on the basis of where they were born.

Grant did say an 80% rule was way too high, but if you're Team Japan you should be Japanese. So I guess it may well apply to the shore crew as much to the boat crew.

As I've said before, more important to me is that the boat hull(s), spars and sails/folis are designed and built in clubs country.  

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So, "tongues" is verboten? Venue is/was special, should still be so...deal with it. PC where everyone can barge is bullroar!

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5 minutes ago, laser 173312 said:

As I've said before, more important to me is that the boat hull(s), spars and sails/folis are designed and built in clubs country.  

So how does this work? Southern Spars can build spars for the NZ, South Africa, USA, and Spain teams only? But only if their designers relocate to each of those four countries to do the design work on those four projects. "Alright team, time to wrap up on team NZ, we have a flight to catch to Capetown so that we can design the mast for Team South Aftica. Remember to pack up your laptops. And can one of you guys remember to pack up the server? That has to go carry-on - it's quite fragile."

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Of coures, KISS is out too, as it has been for a few events?

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What do you mean by designed in country? Designed by people living in that country or designed by nationals if that country.

Of its living then it puts teams at a disadvantage just because they are from countries with more stringent visa requirements.

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KISS or KISS-off?

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James Spithill listed  nationality is Bermuda 

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This is a sport that combines equipment and drivers of that equipment. The who manage and fund the teams that design and build that equipment are going to want the best jockeys in the world on the equipment.

Team Artemis is a great case in point. Swedish funded team with British management and they hired a talented Australian to drive.

Dalts has stated that there will be a nationality rule of some sorts. The Japanese boat will be Japanese. But he has also said it will be a balancing act and will not be an 80% rule.

 

It will be difficult.....but if they want teams from wealthy sponsors and wealthy countries then the nationality hurdle has to be realistic, high enough to create some national pride but low enough that a well funded team can find the right talent to be competitive.  Ian Walkers Azzam team did enough to get Abu Dhabi behind his team

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1 hour ago, 2Newts said:

So how does this work? Southern Spars can build spars for the NZ, South Africa, USA, and Spain teams only? But only if their designers relocate to each of those four countries to do the design work on those four projects. "Alright team, time to wrap up on team NZ, we have a flight to catch to Capetown so that we can design the mast for Team South Aftica. Remember to pack up your laptops. And can one of you guys remember to pack up the server? That has to go carry-on - it's quite fragile."

No Southern Spar is a NZ company, it can design and build stuff for ETNZ, no one else. USA, SA, who ever use their own boat makers.

That is something I would like explicitly said in any protocol for AC36. A company can only provide major parts (hull(s), spars, foils) to 1 team in the cup.

That would also have an effect on stopping the likes of Team Japan in it's tracks. 

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1 hour ago, laser 173312 said:

As Austria & Switzerland are landlocked they shouldn't be able to enter a team. I can't see that mistake being made again.

But then it's unfair on the sailors from those countries if they are excluded from the cup on the basis of where they were born.

Grant did say an 80% rule was way too high, but if you're Team Japan you should be Japanese. So I guess it may well apply to the shore crew as much to the boat crew.

As I've said before, more important to me is that the boat hull(s), spars and sails/folis are designed and built in clubs country.  

And as I have said before that's a stupid rule. There is one sail maker in the world that can turn out the sails these boats need. Exactly one manufacturing plant in the world that can build them, and exactly one set of machines capable of doing so. So a strict national rule on sails and there goes all the teams except a US challenger because North's 3di loft is in NV.

Now how deep do you go? Because the carbon and laminates used in 3di aren't made in the US (I believe). So never mind, even an American team can't use North Sails. In fact no sail loft in the world can build a sail.

Who even knows what country the Dacron fibers for sails are made in, or the laminates, or the threads... 

 

world wide ore supply chains are just the way the world works now. Car parts cross the US-Mexico boarder 30 times before a car is finally built. Good luck finding anything in the world that is all fabricated in one country.  

 

 

As for the nationality requirements for design... great you just tossed litterateur every European team. EU work and nationality laws would make it illegal to require the entire design team and its employees to be from one nation. So there goes BAR, Artemis, even the new CoR LR won't be able to field a team, but they wont have sails either, so I guess the fact they can't design a boat won't matter much. 

Of course all the ropes are designed originally by DSM (Dyneema) so what ropes are everyone going to use? We already touched on problems with dacron production... so maybe cotton, or wire? 

 

Blocks and deck hardware will be fun  I think it's all built in the US or France, but of course they may need to redesign to use cotton ropes and sails....

 

 

ya fuck that for a buch on stupid  

 

 

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On 27/06/2017 at 10:35 PM, Gutterblack said:

Lot of bullshit being spouted here;

Consider the opposite of a nationality clause, hired guns like we have now. Is the cup a professional league like F-1 or a competition between nations. Sound like a lot of you want a gravy train for the sailing elite. The AC is not as I recall about poor professional snowflakes who need a job.

As for the "best sailors in the world" yeah whatever... Even PB is replaceable or soon will be, its the nature of sport, talent and age for rising stars to rise.

The boat has to have mostly nationals onboard, how else do you "grow" a sailing culture except by giving people a go.

Agree 100%

Unfortunately, I think the genie has been let out of the bottle on this one.

Too many people with their hands out wanting to be greased, and greased well - and getting it.  But that's not the issue.

In spite of efforts, this will NEVER be an event with mass appeal - even with the George Jetson boats zinging around a bay.

My interest in the America's Cup began to wane after 1987 when there was that ridiculous 1988 farce of a cup - and died completely when it went to foilers.

A couple of things about the nationality requirements is the ability to grow a sailing culture as you mention.  The other is to grow a sailing or marine industry.

I can't say for certain, but I suspect the old nationality requirements allowed Aussie  businesses to improve and prosper (i.e. winches and other hardware).

Yeah, I'm a grumpy old fart and probably completely out of touch with the realities of modern day sports - which seems to me to be all about money

But I like to think back to the old days, when crew members had to take time off their regular jobs to participate.  Pay?  I think they had a daily per diem to cover expenses

I really like this video about the Canada 1 challenge from 1983.  They didn't win, or even come that close - so maybe that makes it irrelevant as it's a video about "losers".

But it is still a good video and one of the better ones about the Americas Cup IMHO.  Barring hardware and the like, the challenge was 100% Canadian AFAIK.  Designer (Bruce Kirby) was a bonafide Canadian as were all the crew.  The boat was built in Canada - even the keel was poured at a foundry just a few miles from where I work.  Anyways, always made me proud to be a Canadian.

 

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I suspect the nationality rule will apply mostly to those guys who are on the water everyday in front of the camera on a daily basis.

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On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 0:56 AM, Team_GBR said:

That is crap. Ben was better than Giles. It is that simple and why he got the slot. Even Ben was made to prove it at world level before he was selected. How many times did Giles beat Ben at a regatta? I am pretty sure it was none unless you count when Ben was chucked from the Gold Cup he was leading. Giles also knows that he would never have won gold if it had not been for all the work Ben did and if he hadn't been part of Ben's training group. Giles's reward was 2016.

Ainsile is talented but he was only able to attain his final Olympic success by having GBR's sailing authority look the other way on his Rule 69.

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2 hours ago, laser 173312 said:

As Austria & Switzerland are landlocked they shouldn't be able to enter a team. I can't see that mistake being made again.

But then it's unfair on the sailors from those countries if they are excluded from the cup on the basis of where they were born.

Grant did say an 80% rule was way too high, but if you're Team Japan you should be Japanese. So I guess it may well apply to the shore crew as much to the boat crew.

As I've said before, more important to me is that the boat hull(s), spars and sails/folis are designed and built in clubs country.  

Lots of good sailors in Switzerland and Austria .  If the Swiss manage to win the cup with a mostly Swiss team, I think an exception should be made and they should be allowed to take the race to Lake Geneva. Decent venue 

 

The problem though with the current edition of boats is that they are so insanely hard to sail. Probably only a handful of sailors skilled enough to helm them 

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28 minutes ago, sailman said:

Ainsile is talented but he was only able to attain his final Olympic success by having GBR's sailing authority look the other way on his Rule 69.

+1

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That's odd!....I thought the United Arab Emirates won the Cup......surely the UAE could field an 80% team;).  At least that's what it says on the sails! But wouldn't their robes get caught in the winches.   Frikkin terrorists, most non-inclusive nation on earth, the UAE.  No respect for anyone and were partially responsible for the 9/11 attacks in the US and Mambai.

See: http://zeenews.india.com/asia/pakistan-banks-sent-funds-to-uae-to-finance-9/11-26/11-terror-attacks-2019256.html

Why the Kiwi's align themselves with terrorist nations is beyond me?  I hope nothing bad ever happens in Auckland, like what happened on 9/11 in NYC, Pennsylvania, and DC.

Please never forget.

PS For full disclosure: I don't know why the US of A aligns itself with Saudi Arabia either, for the same reasons mentioned above.

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MidPack worries for a team that really can't compete.  We watched this outcome during most of the nine races of AC35.  Whether by reason of skill or boat design, particularly the design of the hydraulics system, Golden Gate Yacht Club's representative proved itself incapable of mounting an earnest and visually rewarding defense of the Cup.  With New Zealand in the lead the only question to ask was by how much will they win.  I'll go out on a limb here and say no team was more heavily populated by professionals from across the world than was the team GGYC designated to defend it's stake in the Cup competition.   And what came of this dilution to what might have been a comparably effective team, this time sailed by sailors from cities I know and visit without leaving home?  I shouldn't have to meet marketers of an opportunity to compete for the America's Cup on their own terms.  The worth or value of watching us defend the Cup is accounted for by hearing the helmsman cut his teeth off the coast of San Diego, the tactician carried the Stars and Stripes in the Olympics, the trimmer is a veteran of regattas on the east coast, the team manager has sailed out of San Francisco for nearly thirty years and so on and on and on.  Each of these introductions brings me a little closer to what is being done in the name of our country.  And yet the marketing advantage, the ability to sell space for a logo on a boat, is realized by telling an interested sponsor none of this matters.  Australia, New Zealand, any country, doesn't matter.  The crew, managers, designers, all of them, are from anywhere.  How does the would-be sponsor come of his interest in supporting America's defense in the first place?

And why should I acquiesce in this lie, lest critics of the competition say America's team is not of an international quality.  There are better sailors elsewhere.  They make their skills available to the highest bidder.  That's how they earn a living from one year to the next.  Buy them.  Buy many of them.  Then hang the Stars and Stripes from the boat.  No one will know the difference.  Indeed, there isn't a difference.  We've been staffing crews this way for decades.  Do again what we've been doing.  The Cup will change hands, or not.  What else is there to a friendly competition among nations?

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Sometimes I think this forum is totally skewed towards foiling fanboys who think speed is the answer to all things on the water. Lets use sex as a metaphor, I think foiling cats are like jerking off to a surgically modified idea of a hot woman whereas the classic AC monos were more like a long hot and steamy session with woman you are passionate about, both get you off but one is infinitely more satisfying.

Dalton nailed it, beach cats with a team of arse sniffers pumping oil sailing around a paddling pool doesn't exactly dignify the cup.

I am not sure what we need but certainly the venue will dictate a more robust and seaworthy design, my preference is for a mono with some size to it, but whatever they choose it will need to be different to the AC 50 if it is to sail in AK, and I also firmly believe that the AC tradition shouldnt be dictated to by an elite group of professional sailors jocks looking for a paycheck along with a management trying to make the cup a consumer product. Sailing is a niche sport, that has highlights for the masses but on the whole the event is appreciated in full by those with a visceral point of view.

IF they did it in the keelboat version of an 18fter, it would be spectacular! You've all seen this clip which to me is real high performance sailing

 

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3 hours ago, scassani said:

MidPack worries for a team that really can't compete.  We watched this outcome during most of the nine races of AC35.  Whether by reason of skill or boat design, particularly the design of the hydraulics system, Golden Gate Yacht Club's representative proved itself incapable of mounting an earnest and visually rewarding defense of the Cup.  With New Zealand in the lead the only question to ask was by how much will they win.  I'll go out on a limb here and say no team was more heavily populated by professionals from across the world than was the team GGYC designated to defend it's stake in the Cup competition.   And what came of this dilution to what might have been a comparably effective team, this time sailed by sailors from cities I know and visit without leaving home?  I shouldn't have to meet marketers of an opportunity to compete for the America's Cup on their own terms.  The worth or value of watching us defend the Cup is accounted for by hearing the helmsman cut his teeth off the coast of San Diego, the tactician carried the Stars and Stripes in the Olympics, the trimmer is a veteran of regattas on the east coast, the team manager has sailed out of San Francisco for nearly thirty years and so on and on and on.  Each of these introductions brings me a little closer to what is being done in the name of our country.  And yet the marketing advantage, the ability to sell space for a logo on a boat, is realized by telling an interested sponsor none of this matters.  Australia, New Zealand, any country, doesn't matter.  The crew, managers, designers, all of them, are from anywhere.  How does the would-be sponsor come of his interest in supporting America's defense in the first place?

And why should I acquiesce in this lie, lest critics of the competition say America's team is not of an international quality.  There are better sailors elsewhere.  They make their skills available to the highest bidder.  That's how they earn a living from one year to the next.  Buy them.  Buy many of them.  Then hang the Stars and Stripes from the boat.  No one will know the difference.  Indeed, there isn't a difference.  We've been staffing crews this way for decades.  Do again what we've been doing.  The Cup will change hands, or not.  What else is there to a friendly competition among nations?

Couldnt agree more, while the NYYC was self interested in its effort to retain the cup, what it has become since it fell into the clutches of the me generation, the marketers, middle managers and hairdressers of the yachting world is shameful.

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15 hours ago, rgeek said:

What do you mean by designed in country? Designed by people living in that country or designed by nationals if that country.

Of its living then it puts teams at a disadvantage just because they are from countries with more stringent visa requirements.

Citizens of that country (not residents) is my understanding of the nationality rule.

 

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9 minutes ago, d2ba said:

Citizens of that country (not residents) is my understanding of the nationality rule.

 

 

9 minutes ago, d2ba said:

Citizens of that country (not residents) is my understanding of the nationality rule.

 

Then you are putting different constraints on different teams, if they want to stay national.

The likely result would be for a LE/EB/RC/any one with sense who wants to win to take their entire team to somewhere like Qatar where citizenship is for sale and everything else would be accommodated.

On this thread and others you can find people saying "I'm not interested in sailing, just nationalism" and we think that's the way to go??

We've all had to wake up to that recently, so OK there needs to be a meaningful national element to this. But the Cup it aint. Please don't destroy the sporting integrity of it for the rest of us for the sake of flag saluting and breast beating.

 

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On 2017-06-27 at 1:12 PM, MidPack said:

I may be mistaken, but I take the nationality rule discussion to mean the entire team, not just the sailing crews we see.

Yes. Hell yes and 80 % of the sponsors as well.. 

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16 hours ago, 2Newts said:

So how does this work? Southern Spars can build spars for the NZ, South Africa, USA, and Spain teams only? But only if their designers relocate to each of those four countries to do the design work on those four projects. "Alright team, time to wrap up on team NZ, we have a flight to catch to Capetown so that we can design the mast for Team South Aftica. Remember to pack up your laptops. And can one of you guys remember to pack up the server? That has to go carry-on - it's quite fragile."

or how about CIC or built in NZ. It gives lesser developed sailing industry countries the choice to build in house or in NZ while offering the NZ industry a bonus of extra work. Only down side is whether the NZ industry is big enough to support it if many of the challengers utilised NZ.

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On 2017-06-27 at 2:11 PM, ColinG said:

nationality across the whole effort is bullshit. In case some here haven't noticed we live in a global interconnected world where designers, architects, engineers etc work world-wide, not just in their own country.  Similar for boatbuilding.  The skills are global. Who the fuck cares if a piece of carbon is built in Auckland or Ankara ?

This is a club to club challenge supposedly, so if anything, the owner should be a member of the challenging club (I know the NYYC never worried about that).  That aside, there is also enough talent around that the onboard crew could be national but why go further than that.  Even in the olympics boats, gear, coaches, support staff, you name it,  can come from other countries and no-one cares or says they should not be allowed.   

 

Spot on!

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13 hours ago, premiumunleaded said:

That's odd!....I thought the United Arab Emirates won the Cup......surely the UAE could field an 80% team;).  At least that's what it says on the sails! But wouldn't their robes get caught in the winches.   Frikkin terrorists, most non-inclusive nation on earth, the UAE.  No respect for anyone and were partially responsible for the 9/11 attacks in the US and Mambai.

See: http://zeenews.india.com/asia/pakistan-banks-sent-funds-to-uae-to-finance-9/11-26/11-terror-attacks-2019256.html

Why the Kiwi's align themselves with terrorist nations is beyond me?  I hope nothing bad ever happens in Auckland, like what happened on 9/11 in NYC, Pennsylvania, and DC.

Please never forget.

PS For full disclosure: I don't know why the US of A aligns itself with Saudi Arabia either, for the same reasons mentioned above.

you're a compete idiot - you have no f-ing idea about global politics and commerce do you!

I suspect that you will find that the 9-11 terrorist had access to funds via a US bank acct. Does that make the US a supporter of terrorism? What about the Florida nightclub terrorist and the various other ones? It's possible they received a government benefit at sometime in their lives via medicare - are they state sponsored?

The actions of a company or individuals are not representative of the beliefs of a government.

 

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17 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

How about a national language rule? If you require the teams to speak the language of the nation they represent on the race course?   The French were the only team not speaking English. 

The America's Cup isn't an equal opportunity employer.  The Aussies and Kiwis are very territorial and have very sharp elbows and give hiring preference to their mates. Make them learn Japanese if they want Japanese money.

SHC

Overheard on a river boat in Amsterdam, a woman tourist muttering to her companion, "Doesn't anyone on this boat speak American?"

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52 minutes ago, TurboDiesel said:

Yes. Hell yes and 80 % of the sponsors as well.. 

So I take it any multi national would have to be ruled out like Toyota, Vodafone, Emirates, etc. Would you out a ban on international private backing? Would you out a ban of money made by Kiwis over seas? If you wouldn't how would you diferentiates between money made by sweat and money fromantic an easy deal.

It's just not workable. Nor is designed in country. Built in country will hurt the NZ economy. Clubs are for sale. Sailor restrictions with out anyour of the above will mean the rest moving to where the sailors are.

Pursuing nationalism as a saviour is bunk. Anyone who follows a team out if nationalism will only follow them when they win, or when there's a chance of them winning. After a couple of years when it becomes clear who that is everyone else turns off. The exceptions are when there's a strong national competition with locally representative sides or at least club teams i.e the entires sport is based around representation. Sailing is not. It's a self help set up for boat owners.

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Dragons, 6 meters, course work or long run. 100%. You can compete fine, if not, fine! 

Kiwi call anyway...like watching the last Yank prez election, with less controversial outcome.

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Nationality rules that could work and would be meaningful:

National of a country if:

1/ Born there or

2/ Ordinarily resident in country from the first day of the previous Cup, i.e pay tax there

The following to be nationals of NMA the club is a member of

- All members of the board

- CEO

- Head of design

- Helm

All branding carries by the team to be for organisations with an operating presence in the country if the NMA the club is a member of

 

.. good luck asking pro sailors and the money to become tax resident in their own country

.. and you're disadvantaging some teams based on their local tax regime too

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They should instead make a rule where at least two crew are from the country the team is representing. Can't be too hard.

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It's meaningless though ... well may be a fig leaf is all people need to be conned. Good luck to em.

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6 hours ago, rgeek said:

 

Then you are putting different constraints on different teams, if they want to stay national.

The likely result would be for a LE/EB/RC/any one with sense who wants to win to take their entire team to somewhere like Qatar where citizenship is for sale and everything else would be accommodated.

 

Nationality rule should be based on previous Americas Cup what Nationality you were then (In this case AC35) so to avoid the Qatar workaround. GD said it won't be 80% --my guess 50% 

 

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1 hour ago, rgeek said:

Nationality rules that could work and would be meaningful:

National of a country if:

1/ Born there or

2/ Ordinarily resident in country from the first day of the previous Cup, i.e pay tax there

The following to be nationals of NMA the club is a member of

- All members of the board

- CEO

- Head of design

- Helm

All branding carries by the team to be for organisations with an operating presence in the country if the NMA the club is a member of

 

.. good luck asking pro sailors and the money to become tax resident in their own country

.. and you're disadvantaging some teams based on their local tax regime too

That wouldbe awsome for ETNZ. The entire rest of the fleet could only sail for Bermuda and they don't have the cash to get a team together. Of course for all of the sailors who you just put out of work it would suck...

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8 defenders, 0 challenger.

It's the way to go!

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On 27/06/2017 at 11:40 AM, rgeek said:

Germany, Denmark, Argentina, Spain, Poland, Ireland, Brazil, Austria, Switzerland and Croatia

+ 1 - add UK 

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On 6/27/2017 at 3:32 AM, Qman said:

they basically already said it wouldnt be 80%

 

Right. GD said there will no 80% rule. There will be some rules relating to that however saying that "a challenge from Japan must be Japanese" so there will be some 'made in country' rules and I would guess some amount of citizenship required. He doesn't want to restrict good sailors from sailing however. 80% means a lot of Aussies and Kiwis are out of the cup then.

 

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I think we've pretty much flogged this horse well past its expiry. Poor thing. 

The point is that nationality rules would be very difficult to establish and enforce in an age of multinational corporations, the internet, multiple passports, and passports-for-sale, UNLESS the RNZYS is looking to stack the deck a la the NYYC back in the day. 

Good on RNZYS if they can figure this out and keep it fair, but I suspect that it's a waste of time and brain power better suited to determining things like the boat, the format, and what to do about the world series. I think it would be a shame if the AC were delayed or pushed later in any way due to the RNZYS/ENTZ spending weeks or months on nationality rules. Either don't have them or make the standard a bit hazy. "Bona fide connection to the nation" anyone?

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1 hour ago, Raptorsailor said:

They should instead make a rule where at least two crew are from the country the team is representing. Can't be too hard.

It doesn´t make more sense but It would not be a disaster perhaps like some of the other suggestions here..  

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3 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

I think we've pretty much flogged this horse well past its expiry. Poor thing. 

The point is that nationality rules would be very difficult to establish and enforce in an age of multinational corporations, the internet, multiple passports, and passports-for-sale, UNLESS the RNZYS is looking to stack the deck a la the NYYC back in the day. 

Good on RNZYS if they can figure this out and keep it fair, but I suspect that it's a waste of time and brain power better suited to determining things like the boat, the format, and what to do about the world series. I think it would be a shame if the AC were delayed or pushed later in any way due to the RNZYS/ENTZ spending weeks or months on nationality rules. Either don't have them or make the standard a bit hazy. "Bona fide connection to the nation" anyone?

ha ha .. +1

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People here say that there is a very small pool of sailors able to compete at that level.  I would like to remind them that the gold in the catamaran class at the Olympics was won by a 55 years old Argentinean.

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At least in part because only one team from each country is allowed in

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On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 7:12 AM, eurochild said:

... the problem with nationality for off-boat roles (and for constructed-in-country outside of large items) seems to me (on top of everything else) to be enforceability.

Question for the experts, has there in the past been a nationality rule for off boat roles?

Britton Chance designed 'Chanceggor' for Baron Bich in the late 60's when he was preparing to challenge for 1970, and the boat was not eligible to be raced as their boat. Now, whether this was by gentleman's rule or enforced by the NYYC I am not sure, but they did not use the boat for more than training.

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Thanks @~HHN92~ . Good quality trivia that, different times for sure. And these days designs aren't really linked to individuals so much.

Though it is a bit on the nose when a national from the defending country takes a lead role for a challenger. 2003 etc. 

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1 hour ago, eurochild said:

Thanks @~HHN92~ . Good quality trivia that, different times for sure. And these days designs aren't really linked to individuals so much.

Though it is a bit on the nose when a national from the defending country takes a lead role for a challenger. 2003 etc. 

Like today with the Kiwis American talent was looked for when the NYYC held the Cup. Boats, designers, crew were picked for at least training/testing/coaching. That is how many US 12's ended-up in Europe, etc.

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On 27/06/2017 at 11:06 PM, Raked Aft\\ said:

keep in mind, (if the boats stay the same)  you only need two true sailors. The other four ass sniffers could be gotten out of any decent cycling club around town...

Only wun syklor (2 in rotn) woz not a werld klass sailer & thay needed to be orllmost that good

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On 29/06/2017 at 8:02 PM, A Class Sailor said:

Another clueless one. These boats are by far the hardest boats to helm that there have ever been. Did you see what happened with Artemis when Outteridge went overboard. Despite having 2 gold medal sailors with loads of experience and 3 others who aren't exactly inexperienced, they stick their best man on and after abut 15 seconds of near disaster, the skipper pulled the plug and stopped foiling and cruises home. It really is so difficult that only a few could get one around a course in all conditions and even less are good enough to be able to race one competitively. Even the very best got it wrong as we saw with the ETNZ capsize, BAR "body slam", Oracle capsized in training etc. etc. Take your "average" Olympic sailor and it would be a miracle if they didn't destroy the boat and maybe hurt people.

^ this

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Only wun rebadjing per teem member, but wun dispensayshun if their 2nd rebadjing iz bak to their original nayshun.

Spithill & Coutts wood hav to stik with their nayshun of (3rd) tshoiss from now on, for AmCup perpissez.

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On July 1, 2017 at 11:22 PM, snaerk said:

^

On June 29, 2017 at 1:02 AM, A Class Sailor said:

Another clueless one. These boats are by far the hardest boats to helm that there have ever been. Did you see what happened with Artemis when Outteridge went overboard. Despite having 2 gold medal sailors with loads of experience and 3 others who aren't exactly inexperienced, they stick their best man on and after abut 15 seconds of near disaster, the skipper pulled the plug and stopped foiling and cruises home. It really is so difficult that only a few could get one around a course in all conditions and even less are good enough to be able to race one competitively. Even the very best got it wrong as we saw with the ETNZ capsize, BAR "body slam", Oracle capsized in training etc. etc. Take your "average" Olympic sailor and it would be a miracle if they didn't destroy the boat and maybe hurt people.

I'm still not buying it-- and you're missing the point. Talent + knowledge + practice = ability. Your "gold medal sailors" had knowledge, and probably the talent, but certainly not the practice to take over, and the boat wasn't set up to be run by five guys anyway. Of course no "average Olympic sailor" could be plopped behind the wheel of an AC 50 and expect to sail it, just as no novice gets into a race car or an F-16 for the first time and runs it to the edge, and yet, there are literally thousands of folks who can. 

I'm not saying it's easy, I'm just saying that there are a LOT more than six guys with the potential to race foiling catamarans. There just needs to be a program to find and train them. How bad does a nation want it?

I think it's cool that sailboats are finally difficult to control. Welcome to what other forms of racing have been facing for a century.

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On 29.6.2017 at 7:20 PM, jonas a said:

Lots of good sailors in Switzerland and Austria .  If the Swiss manage to win the cup with a mostly Swiss team, I think an exception should be made and they should be allowed to take the race to Lake Geneva. Decent venue (...)

No exception required, the "courses" = venue/location is MC-able.
 

On 29.6.2017 at 11:02 PM, Gutterblack said:

Couldnt agree more, while the NYYC was self interested in its effort to retain the cup, what it has become since it fell into the clutches of the me generation, the marketers, middle managers and hairdressers of the yachting world is shameful.

Golgafrincham?

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Rule: Eighty percent of Louis Vuitton bags must be made in France.

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