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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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MidPack

Poll: Next AC Boat

Next AC Boat?   634 members have voted

  1. 1. Next AC Boat?

    • Foiling cat very similar to AC35 boats
      190
    • Another foiling multihull
      127
    • Displacement monohull
      139
    • Foiling monohull
      160
    • Other
      18

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

934 posts in this topic

It's probably been discussed enough, but a poll seems timely to quantify the sentiment here.

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I can't figure it out. Suspect from GD's comments that cyclors, autopilots, and Xbox controllers to be eliminated. But they also have GA. Plus, GD also mentioned wanting to provide continuity for other syndicates.

The thought of ballast is hard to fathom. But how to sail a hard sail multi without stored energy?

And, it must be an open water design.  Think I'll stick with foiling cat - but a more "sailorly" and seaworthy flavor than what we have now.

 

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13 minutes ago, floater said:

I can't figure it out. Suspect from GD's comments that cyclors, autopilots, and Xbox controllers to be eliminated. But they also have GA. Plus, GD also mentioned wanting to provide continuity for other syndicates.

The thought of ballast is hard to fathom. But how to sail a hard sail multi without stored energy?

And, it must be an open water design.  Think I'll stick with foiling cat - but a more "sailorly" and seaworthy flavor than what we have now.

 

Agree - if it's going to be a decent-sized multihull, you can't do away with the electronics without compromising on stability and safety, and can't do away with stored energy without going back to galley slaves - give them each a standard platform, hulls, mast, and battery, and let them go for it!

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I voted for another class of foiling multihull, but maybe they will involve both mono and multi like Volvo after the 18-19 edition.

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I thought the 4knot shit box sailors hoping for a return of hole digging monos were more numerous. Must be just very vocal.

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65'-75' TP52 style box rule, manual controls. You don't need a house full of grinders and the boats are more relative to the majority of the boats people sail so more interesting to follow. Big enough to have some real power and speed but not the ultra-heavy lead mines of yore. Should go 20's to maybe 30's off-wind powered up in breeze. Sure, not foilers but pretty impressive platforms that can provide excitement, something just outside what the average Joe sails but at least it is relative.

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I don't have a preference of monos or multis. I just want to see crew doing work that I can figure out what it's for... hauling a sail up or down or going through an evolution, not grinding for no apparent reason. I don't want whatever Acup boats we get to become "e-sports" where you have a bunch of guys driving the boats from playstations.

I love foiling and all the tech aspects of aero and hydro, but I do think that as boat speed increases it becomes less about close racing because one tiny error can cause a boat to make a 1km gain. Furthermore, foiling with the aid of hydraulics restricts tactical options, because often teams can't perform a manuever when they want if they want simply due to lack of power.

So, I can't choose one of your poll options, because I don't have a particular preference, I just want the boats to be less about the software and more about the crew.

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10 minutes ago, Rawhide said:

I thought the 4knot shit box sailors hoping for a return of hole digging monos were more numerous. Must be just very vocal.

Thank goodness. If the AC goes back to displacement monohulls, no matter how big, we might as well plan to bury sailing once Boomers are all unable or dead. We're well on the way, despite a few exceptions here and there, the old guard is killing the future of sailing by holding on to the distant past. I absolutely love the J/Class and always will, but the AC should be at least somewhere near the leading edge of the sport or the next generations won't be interested at all.

And though I really think the ACC class and AC format was a step in the right direction, I share the concern with a crew of 6 where 3.5-4 "crew" are there only to generate energy, and an Olympic cyclist with no sailing experience is a valuable crew member.

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OK, this NASCAR-on-the-water has been fun and all, but now it's time to get back to real sailing. When I'm a bazzilionaire and I can buy the cup, here's what it's going to be:

NO BOX RULES! You heard that right, build whatever you want, only rule is wind power only. But ... the race will be held up in the Puget Sound in April or November, when the winds and seas are completely unpredictable. And we race no matter what the conditions. Blowing like stink with 6 foot seas? Your foiling cats will break apart like driftwood (or driftcarbon, whatever). Barely a breath of wind and glassy seas? Good luck getting that displacement mono to move.

I have no idea how the preliminary matches will work, but a total of around 100 will qualify for the finals. The finals will consist of three races, with the back half of the fleet knocked out after each race. Here's what the races will be:

Race 1 (100 boats): A flat out drag race all the way down the Strait of San Juan DeFuca and back. Pretty straight forward. Not very technical, the fastest boats win.

Race 2 (50 boats): A very technical race weaving through the San Juans and Gulf Islands. Other than markers that must be rounded, the routes through the islands are completely up to the crews. Tricky currents, nasty obstacles, searching for puffs will all determine the winner.

Race 3 (25 boats): A buoy race in Elliot Bay in front of Seattle. Perfect venue and course for spectators.

What do you think? Anyone want to help me out with that "bazzilionaire" thing so I can make this happen?

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2 hours ago, Rawhide said:

I thought the 4knot shit box sailors hoping for a return of hole digging monos were more numerous. Must be just very vocal.

No, us 4knot shit box sailors are here...my vote is for displacement hull. At least then the AC would require some sailing skill... unlike the current state of affairs.  You know...like sail trim....steering though waves...playing wind shifts...headsail changes.....spinnakers..  Things like that.     

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65ft foiling cats. soft sails and auto foil control system so less power required. 

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the AKL mid-Waitemata harbour  will  be the  venue ,  for  the city /  stadium viewing.

it is  quite  tidal 1 - 3 kn , commonly  wind Vs tide =  4'  chop,  breezes from  all   directions within  1 day, and  most common wind-range  15  -  30 kn,  also  these not a lot of room  for a AC Course

so the Yacht class will  have to  cope with  all  these demands and  conditions

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2 hours ago, MidPack said:

I share the concern with a crew of 6 where 3.5-4 "crew" are there only to generate energy, and an Olympic cyclist with no sailing experience is a valuable crew member.

You either have a short memory or don't know your cup history, because it is littered with cases of non sailors being brought in to grind. In the past, it was rowers. For TNZ, try Rob Waddell, Olympic rowing gold medalist who joined the team in 2001 as a grinder in the old lead mines.

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23 minutes ago, Kiwi xtreme said:

65ft foiling cats. soft sails and auto foil control system so less power required. 

That works.

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I voted other. 

Instead of a rigid box rule, I hope to see a more flexible approach that sets maximum dimensions, limits stored electrical power to certain watts, maximum beam w method of including trimarans or catamarans/LOA/mast height. Max crew amount. But how each syndicate chooses to bring a boat of their choice. Limit number of sails carried to mainsail, staysail, and two others (can be anything) - but if rigid wing it cannot be switched out before the race due to weather. IOW if you designed it for 5-15 and it is gusting 35 it is your problem. 

Rule spells out the ocean course it will likely be sailed in and weather conditions. 

The rich will always bring rich programs but that'll allow other syndicates to come along. 

 

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48 minutes ago, EssjaywhyNZ said:

the AKL mid-Waitemata harbour  will  be the  venue ,  for  the city /  stadium viewing.

it is  quite  tidal 1 - 3 kn , commonly  wind Vs tide =  4'  chop,  breezes from  all   directions within  1 day, and  most common wind-range  15  -  30 kn,  also  these not a lot of room  for a AC Course

so the Yacht class will  have to  cope with  all  these demands and  conditions

You forgot the wharf extensions POA wants.;)

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3 hours ago, wristwister said:

OK, this NASCAR-on-the-water has been fun and all, but now it's time to get back to real sailing.

Not NASCAR, F1.  

NASCAR has 4-sp manual shifting, carburetors, clutch pedals, they have to work for it.  F1, some dude in the garage is monitoring how much pee is in the driver's bladder...

NASCAR they use their bumpers.  F1 they call the stewards if someone drives too close to them.

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Catalina 27s!

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Whatever is the choice in the end, I hope that there isn't any lead to be seen. Fly fly fly

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24 minutes ago, Rskiff said:

Whatever is the choice in the end, I hope that there isn't any lead to be seen. Fly fly fly

agree i think, lead is dead.  very hard to get the righting moment on a mono without the lead so i say stick with multi.  Tris or cats i don't really care, i think tris have the potential to be a little more sea worthy. 

 

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I think people are getting hung up on the power/grinder issues. Consider back in the day of the IACC boats when they had 7 guys grinding every time they turned a corner. Upwind, everybody but the helm was laying flat in the bottom of the boat. the rest f the time, most stood around doing nothing, waiting for the 2 or 3 moments in  1.5 hour race when they had something to do. I watched one of the races from 2007 and it was like watching paint dry. After the prestarts of this cup, watching 2 boats sit head to wind for nearly 2 minutes followed by one tacking twice while the other accelerated for the pin was mind numbing. The 650 metres of separation on the run "added" to the (lack of) excitement, even worse than seeing one boat behind a long way as we have seen this time around.

The boats need to be super fast and they need to be kept together. I agree that we don't want 2 guys sailing and 4 grinding, but without an engine, which is simply wrong, we will have grinders. What will make the difference is limiting what you can use hydraulics for and making every control operable by a rope adjusted by a person. Get rid of the actuators. Get rid of the computers. Direct human control is what is needed.

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So... it'd be great if ...

...the boats are at least as fast as anything else out there getting around on the wind

...they're challenging to sail and handle to sort those with ability from those without

...while having strict guidelines, they still allow clever solutions to make a difference and push the state-of-the-art to the next step

...they provide speed and maneuverability to allow match racing ability to play a major role in the outcome

 

It sounds like things are pretty close as it is-- don't fix what isn't broken. If GD wants to do away with hydraulics, the auto-trimming boards and soft sails might be the only big changes they need to make. 

 

But damn, those 72s were magnificent! 

 

How much cost saving would be realized by going from rigid wings to sails? is it that big of a deal? 

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1 hour ago, bwwooster said:

How much cost saving would be realized by going from rigid wings to sails? is it that big of a deal? 

Probably not much if any. Just for comparison sake... a TP-52 could probably burn thru $500,000 usd a year in sails if not for purchase limits. By comparison the wing for an AC-50 runs about $1.200,000 usd but doesn't need to be replaced regularly. Add in the mast and rigging for the TP and it's probably pretty close in terms of cost over 3 years. It actually wouldn't surprise me if the wing was cheaper when it all washes out.

 

The real cost of a campaign isn't the stuff it's the labor. Again I am just guessing, but I would bet that for a three year campaign the cost of labor works out to be about 60-70% the total campaign costs  

 

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I wouldn't expect a cost saving for soft sails at all really - but they would bring back crew work.

Call me old-fashioned, but I'd rather see the crew setting and taking in sails, than a dude with a playstation controller making imperceptible wing adjustments.

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3 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

You either have a short memory or don't know your cup history, because it is littered with cases of non sailors being brought in to grind. In the past, it was rowers. For TNZ, try Rob Waddell, Olympic rowing gold medalist who joined the team in 2001 as a grinder in the old lead mines.

True dat.

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Soft sails wouldn't bring back crew work because these boats always sail upwind

Very interest8ng comment on this that a soft sail rig would add massively to the loads the platform has to carry.

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8 minutes ago, rgeek said:

Soft sails wouldn't bring back crew work because these boats always sail upwind

Very interest8ng comment on this that a soft sail rig would add massively to the loads the platform has to carry.

Again, don't limit your thinking to multihulls. 

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42 minutes ago, KoW said:

I wouldn't expect a cost saving for soft sails at all really - but they would bring back crew work.

Call me old-fashioned, but I'd rather see the crew setting and taking in sails, than a dude with a playstation controller making imperceptible wing adjustments.

The more I think about it... I think soft sails would add to the cost, probably substantially. 

 

Ignore the cost of the rig, every person you add to the boat is going to add about $2m to the labor cost over a 3 year campaign. Add a spinnaker and figure you need two more people onboard. That's $4m over a campaign.  

 

No wonder they went to smaller boats. It had nothing to do with operating costs or build cost and everything to do with labor costs. 

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21 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Again, don't limit your thinking to multihulls. 

It's not Pirates of the Caribbean you know

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3 minutes ago, rgeek said:

It's not Pirates of the Caribbean you know

AC70 wasn't it? Closer.

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7 hours ago, MidPack said:

Thank goodness. If the AC goes back to displacement monohulls, no matter how big, we might as well plan to bury sailing once Boomers are all unable or dead. We're well on the way, despite a few exceptions here and there, the old guard is killing the future of sailing by holding on to the distant past. I absolutely love the J/Class and always will, but the AC should be at least somewhere near the leading edge of the sport or the next generations won't be interested at all.

And though I really think the ACC class and AC format was a step in the right direction, I share the concern with a crew of 6 where 3.5-4 "crew" are there only to generate energy, and an Olympic cyclist with no sailing experience is a valuable crew member.

best comment i've ever read on this web site!! 

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Again, don't limit your thinking to multihulls. 

but show me how a mono of that size can be fast enough, manourverable enough and exciting enough.  Keeping in mind that that the bulb weight of most monos is couple of times the total weight of the AC50.  light is fast and exciting.   as soon as you need weight for righting moment your buggered. 

 

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Soft sails selling BS. The platform for a soft sail rig has to be considerably stiffer/stronger than wing rig setup. Work it out those here buried in last Century. Remember the knowledge gained in 1988 with Conner's two Stars and Stripes catamarans; one was hard rig which convinced Conner (who was initially old school) that it was not only far superior in performance but also didn't bend the shit out of the platform like the huge soft sail rig did. Same thing with the Deed of Gift cat monster; remember the images of the platform problems/twisting compared to when the hard wing was installed.

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1 hour ago, Groucho Marx said:

Soft sails selling BS. The platform for a soft sail rig has to be considerably stiffer/stronger than wing rig setup. Work it out those here buried in last Century. Remember the knowledge gained in 1988 with Conner's two Stars and Stripes catamarans; one was hard rig which convinced Conner (who was initially old school) that it was not only far superior in performance but also didn't bend the shit out of the platform like the huge soft sail rig did. Same thing with the Deed of Gift cat monster; remember the images of the platform problems/twisting compared to when the hard wing was installed.

 

That's not even the biggest part of the problem with soft sails, which is their range.  I talked to Salty about this at length; he said because of how much apparent wind the boat develops, soft sails become extremely limited because they cannot be flattened out like a wing can.  The ability to remove all the camber is what allows the wing to work whether the boat is seeing 6 knots of apparent wind or 46 knots of apparent wind, which could all happen on the same leg...even with major tech improvements, I don't know a sailmaker who can build that one!

So you end up with a quiver of mainsails and a quiver of jibs, and if you pick the wrong one, it's dangerous as hell.  

I don't actually see the problem - quick sail changes before a race mean the crew work is back, and being caught with too much sail up means more drama.  all good!  Other than the weight of all those sails adding up...maybe a hybrid like we've seen in a few boats, with a wing and soft sail combination?  Maybe smaller than it could be, so they have to use the soft portion to get going after a maneuver or during a start, then they have to roll it up as they pick up speed?  There's another good yachtie job on the boat, and you can do it with a winch

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why would TNZ take it back to any sort of mono hulls or non foilers

honest question, not a dig

they just proved that they are leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else in the world at making a foiling cat go fast. why would they give that up

i just reckon it would take one retarded guy to take it back for the public's sake and evaporate any advantage they have coming into the event

just my grain of salt.

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I'm more interested in the pre-selection of the Challenger of Record. Let's be honest, that picture was taken on a private yacht owned by Team NZL and not a public area. Team NZL was able to control who they let on the boat. I wonder if everyone was subjected to a strip search to ensure nobody but the pre-selected had one of those documents shoved up their ass

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DO IT IN FOIL ASSISTED TP52s

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I'd go with AC50 but none of this hydraulic cyclorama xbox nonsense. rope pulling human power only. 

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Libera A class! (One design boats) (with just daggerboard, maybe with DSS or monohull foiling) 12-14 crew member, real teamwork, real sailors! 

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43 minutes ago, Abra said:

I'd go with AC50 but none of this hydraulic cyclorama xbox nonsense. rope pulling human power only. 

There's this thing called friction....

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I wonder if they would look at a foiling Tri a bit like Hydroptère?

 

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A foiling monohull is a nonstarter on a windward leeward course.  To get enough righting moment you would need to fly the bulb which at this size (larger than 50') would require an engine or you would have to be cool with really slow tacks.  I don't think we want to go down that road. The only monohull i could see foiling is some super sized moth like skiff, which would be cool but how is that different than multihulls

1) Stick with some kind multihull

2) only allow 2 people grinding

3) no hydraulics except for actuating the foils, or maybe just use electric actuators 

4) open box rule on everything, 1 design has no place here  

4) all soft sails, code zeros for prestart maneuvers and light air

5) get rid of the 10sec start, and reaching finish

6) longer course more than 1 jibe per leg 

7) Be able to race in 2m swell, 30kts of breeze

 

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I don't think the Boat type matters.  Cal 20s to ACC and anything in between, you have plenty of good racing.  What I would like to see in the next Cup is the restoration of Country of Origin.  Then the US will reign supreme again.

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TP100 Rule.  Big sailing teams, doing big sailing maneuvers including lots of sail changes. That I would watch.  

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12 minutes ago, brettphillips said:

 Then the US will reign supreme again.

#macga

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My 2 cents on some basic principles:

  • Should be primarily a sailing competition, not just a technological/financial arms race. Sailing expertise should be a prerequisite for success. No stored energy, limited electronics. Sails should be trimmed by a human. Match racing format between the winners of the defender and challenger trials (save "playoffs" for football and basketball).
  • That said, it should to some extent be a design/technology competition.  Box or formula rule is fine, but not unlimited (see tech arms race above). Perhaps with a class-standard instrumentation package required. That way AC has the potential to advance the technology of the sport but still preserves potential for close racing which depends on sailing skill
  • That said, it should return to being a competition between nations. All crew and design team should be citizens or permanent legal residents of the country they represent. Lead designer, skipper/helm and a percentage of design team and sailing crew should be natural-born citizens. Construction of hull, rig and sails should be in-country. So not a competition to see who can hire the best Kiwis.
  • In the spirit of national competition, no corporate team names. Sponsorship will be necessary, Oracle and Emirates can still have logos on boats, sails, uniforms, but it would be Team USA against Team New Zealand (or whoever vs. whoever). Maybe limit sponsorship to nation of origin, but with the multinational nature of most big corporations that probably isn't feasible.

I think there's a place in sailing for unlimited-design foiling cats going 50kts and that's fun to watch (after a fashion), but at least in my opinion that place is not the America's Cup.

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...but then again ..... 170 ft monohulls would be petty cool too.....:)

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Instead of the boat, we should speculate on the budgets. The boat will likely be what NZL believes they can afford to be competitive in.

that throws out massive crews and loose box rules.

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21 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

My 2 cents on some basic principles:

  • Should be primarily a sailing competition, not just a technological/financial arms race. Sailing expertise should be a prerequisite for success. No stored energy, limited electronics. Sails should be trimmed by a human. Match racing format between the winners of the defender and challenger trials (save "playoffs" for football and basketball).
  • That said, it should to some extent be a design/technology competition.  Box or formula rule is fine, but not unlimited (see tech arms race above). Perhaps with a class-standard instrumentation package required. That way AC has the potential to advance the technology of the sport but still preserves potential for close racing which depends on sailing skill
  • That said, it should return to being a competition between nations. All crew and design team should be citizens or permanent legal residents of the country they represent. Lead designer, skipper/helm and a percentage of design team and sailing crew should be natural-born citizens. Construction of hull, rig and sails should be in-country. So not a competition to see who can hire the best Kiwis.
  • In the spirit of national competition, no corporate team names. Sponsorship will be necessary, Oracle and Emirates can still have logos on boats, sails, uniforms, but it would be Team USA against Team New Zealand (or whoever vs. whoever). Maybe limit sponsorship to nation of origin, but with the multinational nature of most big corporations that probably isn't feasible.

I think there's a place in sailing for unlimited-design foiling cats going 50kts and that's fun to watch (after a fashion), but at least in my opinion that place is not the America's Cup.

You are out of your mind.

No sponsorship, so no teams have any money.

100% nationality requirement for sailors/designers/builders means no teams would currently be able to even buy sails right now. Because they are all built by North in Sti Lanka or wherever. 

But a big box rule do the programs will be incredibly expensive...  

 

nothing that you suggest makes any sense either now or in keeping with the history of the AC. it's all pipe dreams and stupidity. 

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13 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I think people are getting hung up on the power/grinder issues. Consider back in the day of the IACC boats when they had 7 guys grinding every time they turned a corner. Upwind, everybody but the helm was laying flat in the bottom of the boat. the rest f the time, most stood around doing nothing, waiting for the 2 or 3 moments in  1.5 hour race when they had something to do. I watched one of the races from 2007 and it was like watching paint dry. After the prestarts of this cup, watching 2 boats sit head to wind for nearly 2 minutes followed by one tacking twice while the other accelerated for the pin was mind numbing. The 650 metres of separation on the run "added" to the (lack of) excitement, even worse than seeing one boat behind a long way as we have seen this time around.

The boats need to be super fast and they need to be kept together. I agree that we don't want 2 guys sailing and 4 grinding, but without an engine, which is simply wrong, we will have grinders. What will make the difference is limiting what you can use hydraulics for and making every control operable by a rope adjusted by a person. Get rid of the actuators. Get rid of the computers. Direct human control is what is needed.

Of course there have always been grinders, but have there been any boats where grinders were 67% of the crew?

For me at least, as I stated in my post the point was not that there are grinders, but that it was 2/3rds of the crew AND do we really think the younger generation is going to be attracted to sailing if odds are 1) they don't need to know much if anything about sailing and 2) there's only a 1 in 3 chance they will actually be asked to "sail" the boat (vs grinding). I'd guess/fear not...

Otherwise I thought the ACC boats and AC35 format were great! And again, I like the old classics like the J/Class just as much.

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1 hour ago, brettphillips said:

I don't think the Boat type matters.  Cal 20s to ACC and anything in between, you have plenty of good racing.  What I would like to see in the next Cup is the restoration of Country of Origin.  Then the US will reign supreme again.

Peter Burling is the worlds preeminent apparent wind sailor. 

Boat type matters. 

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4 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

why would TNZ take it back to any sort of mono hulls or non foilers

honest question, not a dig

they just proved that they are leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else in the world at making a foiling cat go fast. why would they give that up

i just reckon it would take one retarded guy to take it back for the public's sake and evaporate any advantage they have coming into the event

just my grain of salt.

May have just been PR, but the commentators said all the AC sailing crews themselves preferred the ACC foiling cats and did NOT want to go back to any monohull. If they go back to monohulls, it'll be because the old guard who finance all this want them. But the old guard has been dragging sailing back to the 70's for decades while younger generations have stayed away in droves. At this rate, one day sailing will be like polo, equestrian, etc. - just a niche pastime for wealthy conspicuous consumption.

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49 minutes ago, StumbleNola said:

You are out of your mind.

No sponsorship, so no teams have any money.

100% nationality requirement for sailors/designers/builders means no teams would currently be able to even buy sails right now. Because they are all built by North in Sti Lanka or wherever. 

But a big box rule do the programs will be incredibly expensive...  

 

nothing that you suggest makes any sense either now or in keeping with the history of the AC. it's all pipe dreams and stupidity. 

I didn't say "no sponsorship", just the opposite. I said "sponsorship will be necessary." But what I proposed is that teams would not have "name" sponsors.

Fair point on current sail construction, but any country that wants to compete should be able to develop the capability to design and build a few sails, no? I expect overseas builders are using commercially available machines and materials, not local magic.

Box rule could be very expensive or fairly cheap, depending on how you structure it. I'd just as soon see AC move away from "Most cash + best Kiwis = winner" which is kind of where it seems to be now.

And I think what I was describing fairly closely reflects the later stages of the 12 Meter AC era, doesn't it?

I acknowledge that this is just my stated preference, which may not be universally held.

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18 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

I didn't say "no sponsorship", just the opposite. I said "sponsorship will be necessary." But what I proposed is that teams would not have "name" sponsors.

Fair point on current sail construction, but any country that wants to compete should be able to develop the capability to design and build a few sails, no? I expect overseas builders are using commercially available machines and materials, not local magic.

Box rule could be very expensive or fairly cheap, depending on how you structure it. I'd just as soon see AC move away from "Most cash + best Kiwis = winner" which is kind of where it seems to be now.

And I think what I was describing fairly closely reflects the later stages of the 12 Meter AC era, doesn't it?

I acknowledge that this is just my stated preference, which may not be universally held.

So, you think Team NZ had the most cash?

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4 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

why would TNZ take it back to any sort of mono hulls or non foilers

honest question, not a dig

they just proved that they are leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else in the world at making a foiling cat go fast. why would they give that up

i just reckon it would take one retarded guy to take it back for the public's sake and evaporate any advantage they have coming into the event

just my grain of salt.

Oracle was in the cat bird seat last time with the fanboys making the same argument...  Look where that got em.....

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4 hours ago, RATM said:

I'm more interested in the pre-selection of the Challenger of Record. Let's be honest, that picture was taken on a private yacht owned by Team NZL and not a public area. Team NZL was able to control who they let on the boat. I wonder if everyone was subjected to a strip search to ensure nobody but the pre-selected had one of those documents shoved up their ass

And NYYC SDYC Al...Earnie and all the other poodles have not done it exactly the same in the modern era.....   no ground to stand on here OMHO..  It is just how it is done...

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I think if they go with Multihulls, they need to have an AC type regatta every year, similar to that of the ACWS, but they run it in a similar format to that of the 52 Super Series and the RC44 Championship. A five day regatta, but have a fleet race day and four days of match racing. The boats should be upgraded versions of the AC45F, one design but power assisted and wheel steered similar to the LR test platform ETNZ used this time. Boats which can foil both upwind and down and maneuver like the current AC50, but retain the traditional AC style wheel steering aspect. Regattas in NZ, Australia, France, Sweden, the UK, the US and the UAE every year. 

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19 hours ago, wristwister said:

OK, this NASCAR-on-the-water has been fun and all, but now it's time to get back to real sailing. When I'm a bazzilionaire and I can buy the cup, here's what it's going to be:

NO BOX RULES! You heard that right, build whatever you want, only rule is wind power only. But ... the race will be held up in the Puget Sound in April or November, when the winds and seas are completely unpredictable. And we race no matter what the conditions. Blowing like stink with 6 foot seas? Your foiling cats will break apart like driftwood (or driftcarbon, whatever). Barely a breath of wind and glassy seas? Good luck getting that displacement mono to move.

I have no idea how the preliminary matches will work, but a total of around 100 will qualify for the finals. The finals will consist of three races, with the back half of the fleet knocked out after each race. Here's what the races will be:

Race 1 (100 boats): A flat out drag race all the way down the Strait of San Juan DeFuca and back. Pretty straight forward. Not very technical, the fastest boats win.

Race 2 (50 boats): A very technical race weaving through the San Juans and Gulf Islands. Other than markers that must be rounded, the routes through the islands are completely up to the crews. Tricky currents, nasty obstacles, searching for puffs will all determine the winner.

Race 3 (25 boats): A buoy race in Elliot Bay in front of Seattle. Perfect venue and course for spectators.

What do you think? Anyone want to help me out with that "bazzilionaire" thing so I can make this happen?

Great! Get your Kickstarter campaign underway and we'll make it happen! I mean, fucking hell, what a great regatta you have planned. I'd be delighted to complete the CoR one page submission in the nearest Shake Shack.

 

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Keep in foiling cats, and keep the wings but stipulate they must be lowerable/reefable on the water and hoistable within a minute. Then at least they become more relevant to the general sailing population and the trickle down effect can actually work because they become a practical proposition on other boats (Seascape and others are already close to this). Get rid of some of the computer assists, and make the boats a bit bigger...the current cats are just a bit small to have much presence.

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Yes, the boats should be spectacular, either the fastest or the largest racing yachts on the planet, preferably both. ....and then there is the budget thing....

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20 hours ago, wristwister said:

OK, this NASCAR-on-the-water has been fun and all, but now it's time to get back to real sailing. When I'm a bazzilionaire and I can buy the cup, here's what it's going to be:

NO BOX RULES! You heard that right, build whatever you want, only rule is wind power only. But ... the race will be held up in the Puget Sound in April or November, when the winds and seas are completely unpredictable. And we race no matter what the conditions. Blowing like stink with 6 foot seas? Your foiling cats will break apart like driftwood (or driftcarbon, whatever). Barely a breath of wind and glassy seas? Good luck getting that displacement mono to move.

I have no idea how the preliminary matches will work, but a total of around 100 will qualify for the finals. The finals will consist of three races, with the back half of the fleet knocked out after each race. Here's what the races will be:

Race 1 (100 boats): A flat out drag race all the way down the Strait of San Juan DeFuca and back. Pretty straight forward. Not very technical, the fastest boats win.

Race 2 (50 boats): A very technical race weaving through the San Juans and Gulf Islands. Other than markers that must be rounded, the routes through the islands are completely up to the crews. Tricky currents, nasty obstacles, searching for puffs will all determine the winner.

Race 3 (25 boats): A buoy race in Elliot Bay in front of Seattle. Perfect venue and course for spectators.

What do you think? Anyone want to help me out with that "bazzilionaire" thing so I can make this happen?

^This^

There are a couple of couple "bazzilionaires" in the area that might help

Also any boat but no more hydraulics. Normal people power only.

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

I think if they go with Multihulls, they need to have an AC type regatta every year, similar to that of the ACWS, but they run it in a similar format to that of the 52 Super Series and the RC44 Championship. A five day regatta, but have a fleet race day and four days of match racing. The boats should be upgraded versions of the AC45F, one design but power assisted and wheel steered similar to the LR test platform ETNZ used this time. Boats which can foil both upwind and down and maneuver like the current AC50, but retain the traditional AC style wheel steering aspect. Regattas in NZ, Australia, France, Sweden, the UK, the US and the UAE every year. 

DO you even know what the America's Cup means, or what the Deed of Gift represents?

No wonder this event has turned into a turd.  No one reads any more.

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6 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

why would TNZ take it back to any sort of mono hulls or non foilers

 

they just proved that they are leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else in the world at making a foiling cat go fast. why would they give that up

 

this ^

 

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Dalton himself hinted that he wants a yachtsman like event that can handle more than a lagoon.  One need only take a look at the VG event to see how foil assisted (Dali foils) can charge up a boat.

If I had the cup in NZ, I'd use local water knowledge and run the event off shore, not in a harbor, not in a lagoon.  I'd run it at a time when the winds can blow fresh so you can't build a boat that has to be put away at 24kts or waves over a few feet.  I'd make the courses longer, Up wind down wind, no reaching (wasted time), and the boat would be a Dali foiled monohull with a box(ish) rule and soft sails.  Maybe around 60-65 ft and crew size owner decision.  No stored power, no canting keel.  

Bust on the J boats, the 12s, but you what, they are still around.  They still inspire and they still carry people on board.  People who can handle a line, steer, site on the rail.  WIll an AC50 do that?  No.  They wont last 3 years and one thing to be said about the America's Cup was that the boats that sailed before Cats did more to carry the spirit of the sailing forward more than these toys that won't last a few years and can't carry anyone other then specialized bodies.

No thanks.  I'll take Dali monohull any day or if they went all J boat...I'm in.  Stick with Cats...no thanks.

 

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AC 36 boats are definitely too small, if you raced in foiling skiffs with the current tv graphics it would be an equally attractive sport to the average Joe.

The whole point is that it is supposed to be the pinnacle of sailing above all else, it is up to other sectors of the sport th promote sailing. 

I personally would like to see some big mono hulls but to make them spectacular and at the same time at the cutting edge I am sure costs would escalate too much.

This concludes a foiling, wing masted cat, but as many have said above more relevant to the Sunday warriors. More manual and more one design stuff. 

 

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3 minutes ago, EssjaywhyNZ said:

this ^

 

The Kiwi's proved they can make a very fast mono hull unless you forget history.  Are you saying the NZ can only make a fast multi hull?  Man, that is a cheap shot.

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30 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

The Kiwi's proved they can make a very fast mono hull unless you forget history.  Are you saying the NZ can only make a fast multi hull?  Man, that is a cheap shot.

well  they certainly  got  the  jump on  design  this time by  trying  and  succeeding with  radical  designs,

so for AC36 , why throw out their  proprietary   design  knowledge and  team ?

not a cheap  shot at  all , others  can catch up if they pursue and succeed  with   all-new ideas ...

 

see  my post  #13  on  overriding   harbour  matters  which I  think  will dictate    the  new design,

the AC35  cats  wont handle nonstop  racing in the conditions  on the Waitemata,  they  will get destroyed and sailors hurt;

this despite tNZ trialled their cat  here last summer during  optimal  Bermuda-like conditions

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1 hour ago, jonas a said:

Yes, the boats should be spectacular, either the fastest or the largest racing yachts on the planet, preferably both. ....and then there is the budget thing....

See, that's where I disagree. I'd rather see AC be mainly about the sailing and the sailors, not the boats.

I don't know that it's possible to make the boats spectacular enough to gain a mass audience a la NASCAR, and frankly I found the current format boring as a sailor. Little or no tactics, minimal pre-start maneuvering, no sets, douses or spinnaker jibes, no tacking duels. And I think all of that stuff can be made interesting and comprehensible on TV using modern graphics capabilities. For me, Congressional Cup match racing is vastly more interesting and memorable.

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

Dalton himself hinted that he wants a yachtsman like event that can handle more than a lagoon.  One need only take a look at the VG event to see how foil assisted (Dali foils) can charge up a boat.

If I had the cup in NZ, I'd use local water knowledge and run the event off shore, not in a harbor, not in a lagoon.  I'd run it at a time when the winds can blow fresh so you can't build a boat that has to be put away at 24kts or waves over a few feet.  I'd make the courses longer, Up wind down wind, no reaching (wasted time), and the boat would be a Dali foiled monohull with a box(ish) rule and soft sails.  Maybe around 60-65 ft and crew size owner decision.  No stored power, no canting keel.  

Bust on the J boats, the 12s, but you what, they are still around.  They still inspire and they still carry people on board.  People who can handle a line, steer, site on the rail.  WIll an AC50 do that?  No.  They wont last 3 years and one thing to be said about the America's Cup was that the boats that sailed before Cats did more to carry the spirit of the sailing forward more than these toys that won't last a few years and can't carry anyone other then specialized bodies.

No thanks.  I'll take Dali monohull any day or if they went all J boat...I'm in.  Stick with Cats...no thanks.

 

No canting keel???    who would build a fast mono in this day and age without a canter.   but why have lead anyway.  monohulls are inherently problematic for fast boats, unless they are skiffs, you just can't get the righting moment in a big mono without weight which makes them dogs. 

 

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I sure hope the peeps here wishing for canting keel monohulls, VOR65, Comanche and the like aren't the same ones whining about tactics and tacking duels. 

And for you monohull promoters, it's funny the Volvo race has added inshore cats and supposedly considered offshore cats.

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1 hour ago, TJSoCal said:

See, that's where I disagree. I'd rather see AC be mainly about the sailing and the sailors, not the boats.

I don't know that it's possible to make the boats spectacular enough to gain a mass audience a la NASCAR, and frankly I found the current format boring as a sailor. Little or no tactics, minimal pre-start maneuvering, no sets, douses or spinnaker jibes, no tacking duels. And I think all of that stuff can be made interesting and comprehensible on TV using modern graphics capabilities. For me, Congressional Cup match racing is vastly more interesting and memorable.

but that ain't the AC. the AC has ALWAYS been about design.

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How about going way back and demanding that all boats should be sailed from their country of origin.... Kept the cup in NYC for many years! ;-)

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I voted for mono foil -

DOG compliant on waterline -CIC/ 80% nationality  etc 

should also allow a cant keel / options 

and full ac trust compliance with international/ federal laws with the DOG with some current updates with the tech 

cheers 

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Maybe a little old school but I look at the first America's Cup and wonder why the original format was changed.  Yea, I know about the Deed of Gift.  But still the first race was around the Isle of Wright and I would bet a nickle that the schooner America did not get to England on a container ship.  So before I choose a boat type I will say the venue should be similar to sailing around the Isle of Wright, not in some flat water location.  And the boats should have to get to the race location on their own, not being shipped there.

Just these two requirements would radically change the design of competing boats.  I am a big fan of boats like Bank Populaire/Spindrift.  Not only are they very fast; they are fast under lots of conditions.  Not saying the boat has to be a 100+foot tri, just that it has to be capable of doing what sailboats have been doing for most of history.  Sailing in the open ocean in a wide range of conditions means the boat has to be seaworthy; and what ever one thinks about the boats in the most recent AC they were not seaworthy.

 

A seaworthy boat would also mean the crew would have to be real sailors.  I note that Spindrift did have a bike like thing.  I have no problem with things like that as long as they are able to stand up to the ravages of the open ocean.  Also have no problem with things like a wing mast; again as long as it can deal with the open ocean.  The thing is soft sails have a huge advantage in being able to be reefed if the wind gets above 30, 40, 50 knots while a wing mast not so much.

 

Bottom line is I understand these are race boats; but I would rather seem more attention paid to being boats and less to being race.

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18 minutes ago, Tomfl said:

Maybe a little old school but I look at the first America's Cup and wonder why the original format was changed.  Yea, I know about the Deed of Gift.  But still the first race was around the Isle of Wright and I would bet a nickle that the schooner America did not get to England on a container ship.  So before I choose a boat type I will say the venue should be similar to sailing around the Isle of Wright, not in some flat water location.  And the boats should have to get to the race location on their own, not being shipped there.

Just these two requirements would radically change the design of competing boats.  I am a big fan of boats like Bank Populaire/Spindrift.  Not only are they very fast; they are fast under lots of conditions.  Not saying the boat has to be a 100+foot tri, just that it has to be capable of doing what sailboats have been doing for most of history.  Sailing in the open ocean in a wide range of conditions means the boat has to be seaworthy; and what ever one thinks about the boats in the most recent AC they were not seaworthy.

 

A seaworthy boat would also mean the crew would have to be real sailors.  I note that Spindrift did have a bike like thing.  I have no problem with things like that as long as they are able to stand up to the ravages of the open ocean.  Also have no problem with things like a wing mast; again as long as it can deal with the open ocean.  The thing is soft sails have a huge advantage in being able to be reefed if the wind gets above 30, 40, 50 knots while a wing mast not so much.

 

Bottom line is I understand these are race boats; but I would rather seem more attention paid to being boats and less to being race.

we could always just do away with the racing and just have a fashion parade.  why open ocean?  what makes that more meaningful than in port 

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35 minutes ago, Qman said:

we could always just do away with the racing and just have a fashion parade.  why open ocean?  what makes that more meaningful than in port 

But he does have a point. If your primary goal is to boost TV viewership, the average joe might be able to understand sailing around an island, or even a clearly marked circular course. Just like car racing!

Even better, mandate that no matter what kind of boat is used, it must prominently display an enormous internal combustion engine that roars and shrieks and belches smoke at a rate proportional to the boat speed but isn't connected to anything at all. They'll love it!   

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5 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

I didn't say "no sponsorship", just the opposite. I said "sponsorship will be necessary." But what I proposed is that teams would not have "name" sponsors.Title sponsorship is where the real money is. They show up with multi-year deals, loads of cash, and typically provide additional support. My guess is most teams would rather loose all their other sponsors than the title. I know every regatta I am involved with would. If for no other reason than having a title means it is far easier to fundraise.

Fair point on current sail construction, but any country that wants to compete should be able to develop the capability to design and build a few sails, no? I expect overseas builders are using commercially available machines and materials, not local magic.Not really. Every AC sail in decades has been provided by North. They build their own machines, have their proprietary techniques, and specialized materials and labor. To build an equally good sail somewhere else would tens of millions to EVERY teams budget. For maybe a couple hundred grand in sails. Not to mention there isn't a demand world wide for that many new sailmakers, so it's just all pissed away money the next day.

Box rule could be very expensive or fairly cheap, depending on how you structure it. I'd just as soon see AC move away from "Most cash + best Kiwis = winner" which is kind of where it seems to be now.

And I think what I was describing fairly closely reflects the later stages of the 12 Meter AC era, doesn't it? Not even close. The old 12m were basically rule driven dogs grotesquely slow compared to anything their cost even then (at least by the end). There is a reason not a single 12m has been built since the AC stopped using them.

I acknowledge that this is just my stated preference, which may not be universally held.

The AC has never been about the sailors. Sure they make it go, but it has always been a design competition from the original America that was radically new compared to the British tubs, to the goofy rule twisters like the 12m's. The AC has always been about finding ways to cheat the rule and design a boat faster than the rules should allow (which is why the 12m had a 45' waterline and 65' overall). 

 

If you want a regatta that's about the sailors then make it a strict OD and swap boats. There is a place for that, but it isn't the AC. 

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13 minutes ago, StumbleNola said:

The AC has never been about the sailors. Sure they make it go, but it has always been a design competition from the original America that was radically new compared to the British tubs, to the goofy rule twisters like the 12m's. The AC has always been about finding ways to cheat the rule and design a boat faster than the rules should allow (which is why the 12m had a 45' waterline and 65' overall). 

 

If you want a regatta that's about the sailors then make it a strict OD and swap boats. There is a place for that, but it isn't the AC. 

True in part, but only in part. It's also always been about the skipper and crew, tactics, sail handling, different weather conditions, etc. etc. IE, sailing. Weird to watch a "sailboat race" during which no one ever touched a sail or line. 

I'm voting for foiling monohulls. At least they look like they're sailing. 

And if you think foiling is the sole future of sailing, that it's going to bring the next generation into sailing, then you're going to send the sport down the same rabbit hole wind-surfing disappeared down 20 years ago.   

 

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On 2017-6-28 at 9:58 AM, MidPack said:

Thank goodness. If the AC goes back to displacement monohulls, no matter how big, we might as well plan to bury sailing once Boomers are all unable or dead. We're well on the way, despite a few exceptions here and there, the old guard is killing the future of sailing by holding on to the distant past. I absolutely love the J/Class and always will, but the AC should be at least somewhere near the leading edge of the sport or the next generations won't be interested at all.

And though I really think the ACC class and AC format was a step in the right direction, I share the concern with a crew of 6 where 3.5-4 "crew" are there only to generate energy, and an Olympic cyclist with no sailing experience is a valuable crew member.

Aren't you just stereotyping the younger sailors and younger generation as a whole? What evidence do you have that they want hyperformance expensive sports gear? 

Can I ask how many younger sailors you race with and against? What was the age of the people you talked with last time you went down to the local club, for instance? I'm still occasionally sailing with youth, regularly racing against them, and coaching the uni sailing club. The ones I know, who are part of enormously strong classes of cheap and simple boats, aspire to do the sailing that they can actually do, not to something they can't do and can't afford. And the classes these kids sail are getting enormous fleets.

The kids (and everyone else) are staying away from the "leading edge" classes in droves. 400 or so boats a year being built (which is about the number of foiling boats being built after a decade of heavy promotion and being used in two ACs) is not going to grow the sport around the world - in fact it's not enough to keep it going in one major country.

 

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On 2017-6-28 at 9:52 AM, Rawhide said:

I thought the 4knot shit box sailors hoping for a return of hole digging monos were more numerous. Must be just very vocal.

If you look at what people are sailing and buying, it's the supporters of the "bleeding edge" who are being vocal but not numerous. Lots of sailors seem to have done just what TV viewers have done, and turned off. 

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"There is a reason not a single 12m has been built since the AC stopped using them."

No one's built an AC72 or DOG multi since the AC stopped using them, either.

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1 minute ago, The Jay said:

"There is a reason not a single 12m has been built since the AC stopped using them."

No one's built an AC72 or DOG multi since the AC stopped using them, either. 

or a IACC

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They have built and rebuilt a bunch of very expensive J Class yachts since the AC stopped using them, and some big cutters and schooners. So either whether they keep on building a class is irrelevant (which is the truth, IMHO) or we should go back to 130 foot monos.

:-)

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, The Jay said:

They have built and rebuilt a bunch of very expensive J Class yachts since the AC stopped using them, and some big cutters and schooners. So either whether they keep on building a class is irrelevant (which is the truth, IMHO) or we should go back to 130 foot monos.

:-)

 

 

 

 

yeah but it took a 67 year gap for a new one to be built after Ranger in 1937. A bit of nostalgia for the rich

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For high intensity racing and populace viewing in this day and age, the monohull, unless it is an unballasted skiff type, is dead. The foiling multihull is the new King. Get used to it people, there is no going back.

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AC 50 foilers need flat water. The racing should be done in the ocean. long races in brutally big fast boats, maybe even to places or around stuff.

Skip the formula one analagies, shore side stadiums, And wrestling pay per view concepts. It's turned the event into public relations "plastic fest" and I suspect that it doesn't make economic sense anyway. It doesn't ring very genuine. The commentators spend half their time explaining how bitchen it all is.

Big monos could be interesting but need canting keels to keep the draft down. And that gets back how big an engine do you need to tack quickly. Daly foils would only work off the wind in a breeze obviously, but I doubt they could be used very much in any kind ballasted mono. I own a Six Meter so I am partial to monos beyond reason.

I have seen Spindrift. She is a monster. Can do 40 knots and handle all sort of conditions. It seems to me a 80-100' trimaran could fill the bill of spectacle and seaworthiness and get into most relevant harbors. Soft sails or partial wings, ama foils, maybe full foiling. Maybe some sort of one design aspect to limit development costs.  No central stored energy to run sail systems. There would be enough crew to run the sails and the tris would be big enough to carry the weight of the additional crew. If they can't afford the payroll then they aren't asking the right people to crew. 

 

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It's all very well ranting on about hugely expensive 80-100 foot monsters with canting keels but they are only big, not really spectacular, not high performance compared to the superb AC50 cats we've all been recently viewing. And do you really think that ETNZ with all their hard won knowledge and success will want to toss out that expertise into the garbage truck and start again?

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What is with the two mono choices in the poll. monos are great, I used to sail/race them but this is the AC. Don't you guys remember what the cat did to the 125 foot mono?

This is 2017 not the 70's, 80's or 90's. I am older too but love this new stuff. 

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Groucho, there has to an element of sailing acumen in this. Drag racing foilers around a mill pond where one or two guys are controlling the entire craft with what looks like his cell phone around a simplified course denies the sport a great portion of the expertise that is generally required to race sailboats. I think a boat needs to be sailed by a team of people. I think that reads with an audience as well which is important sustain the event. There is human high performance as well as technology. 

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just imagine the number of cyclors you will need to swing a x tonne canting keel. 

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a tp 52 weights as much as 3 AC50s  and half that is in the bulb. 

 

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51 minutes ago, Groucho Marx said:

It's all very well ranting on about hugely expensive 80-100 foot monsters with canting keels but they are only big, not really spectacular, not high performance compared to the superb AC50 cats we've all been recently viewing. And do you really think that ETNZ with all their hard won knowledge and success will want to toss out that expertise into the garbage truck and start again?

Agree. The cat is out of the bag ... The closer the next boat is to the AC50, the more likely it is that new teams will sign up, and the more the knowledge and experience gained from this cycle by sailors and designers will carry forward and benefit the sport.

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33 minutes ago, Pogmite said:

Groucho, there has to an element of sailing acumen in this. Drag racing foilers around a mill pond where one or two guys are controlling the entire craft with what looks like his cell phone around a simplified course denies the sport a great portion of the expertise that is generally required to race sailboats. I think a boat needs to be sailed by a team of people. I think that reads with an audience as well which is important sustain the event. There is human high performance as well as technology. 

I think a good test for whether an AC boat is suitable should be: Once the AC is over, is it possible for a charter company to buy the boat and sail it. Not sail it well mind you. JUST sail it at all. If not, then how are most people supposed to relate to it?

A mono with wing sail and canting keel most likely falls into this category although impractical due to the logistics of putting the wing sail up.

In contrast it would be impossible for a charter company to sail an AC50 AT ALL unless it stayed completely in displacement mode and even then, would they have the skills to stop it rearing up and then turning ugly?

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14 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

There's this thing called friction....

there's this stuff called lube

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"I think a good test for whether an AC boat is suitable should be: Once the AC is over, is it possible for a charter company to buy the boat and sail it."

Perhaps the protocol should specify separate gender toilets and a viewing balcony? 

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2 minutes ago, weta27 said:

"I think a good test for whether an AC boat is suitable should be: Once the AC is over, is it possible for a charter company to buy the boat and sail it."

Perhaps the protocol should specify separate gender toilets and a viewing balcony? 

Next we'll be sseing pie warmers on the back with BBQs and sun awnings

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On 6/28/2017 at 11:20 AM, floater said:

I can't figure it out. Suspect from GD's comments that cyclors, autopilots, and Xbox controllers to be eliminated. But they also have GA. Plus, GD also mentioned wanting to provide continuity for other syndicates.

The thought of ballast is hard to fathom. But how to sail a hard sail multi without stored energy?

And, it must be an open water design.  Think I'll stick with foiling cat - but a more "sailorly" and seaworthy flavor than what we have now.

 

Like the idea of something more seaworthy; not too different to current.The physical requirements, like fitness and quick reflexes, mean young sailors  are required, and they are the future; limiting crew size limits costs.

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8 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I think a good test for whether an AC boat is suitable should be: Once the AC is over, is it possible for a charter company to buy the boat and sail it. Not sail it well mind you. JUST sail it at all. If not, then how are most people supposed to relate to it?

A mono with wing sail and canting keel most likely falls into this category although impractical due to the logistics of putting the wing sail up.

In contrast it would be impossible for a charter company to sail an AC50 AT ALL unless it stayed completely in displacement mode and even then, would they have the skills to stop it rearing up and then turning ugly?

So let me get this right... you want the best sailors in the world, on boats that cost millions to build and tens of millions to campaign, racing for the most prestigious trophy in all of sailing, to have design decisions dictated by what type of boat my 70 year old father, who considers an Ultimate 20 to be high performance, can sail? Ya fuck that with trannies dick. 

 

 

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