MidPack

Poll: Next AC Boat

Next AC Boat?  

636 members have voted

  1. 1. Next AC Boat?

    • Foiling cat very similar to AC35 boats
      191
    • Another foiling multihull
      127
    • Displacement monohull
      140
    • Foiling monohull
      160
    • Other
      18


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11 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

No, actually it was this forum here. Finally caught up on all AC35 posts, three weeks after the event, haha.

Now, where are we? Have we made the decision of which boat it's gonna be for AC36? Any recommendation letters written to the RNZYS and CVR; where can I sign?

I don't know about you guys but I am watching the Governors Cup live Facebook feed. While not polished like the AC production it is fun to watch the young guys who are coming up and also a team from our YC, Greiner Hobbs, out there competing.

https://www.facebook.com/BalboaYachtClub/

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On 7/16/2017 at 6:50 AM, The Jay said:

 

And can you please tell us what major participant sport has so many events in which the gear used is so different from the gear used by most weekend competitors?  

Motor Racing.   Most amateur sports car racers SCCA, NASA or just plain club racers would not have the faintest idea how to drive a Formula 1 car....but that doesnt stop Formula 1 being a  highly popular spectator sport that appeals to both amateur motor sports racers and the wider public.

 

Mainstream bleh?   Why does the pinnacle of professional racing have to be mainstream?  If you want to watch mainstream racing, volunteer for RC at Chichester Yacht Club and enjoy the spectacle of Laser 2's putting the hammer down round an approximate windward-leeward course.  If you want to watch pro sailors sailing at high speed in some of the fastest racing machines on the planet, turn on the TV and watch the AC.

We have tried to interest NBC in the broadcast rights to my local club's Sonar racing but despite only being 2.5 miles from NBC Sports studios, we have failed to garner interest.

Most sailing enthusiasts understand what is going on in a modern AC race......(and so do a lot of non-sailors).  The tactical decisions that have to be made in a blink of an eye are fascinating and the skills to maximize boat speed are very evident.  Coming off the foils out of a tack was easy for my old lady to see, certainly compared to the intricacies of explaining a bad tack in a 12 meter ("oooh they came out of that tack slow.....jib was overtrimmed"   Really?  they look like they come out of every tack slow....I will be in the garden call me if anything interesting happens).

  ETNZ made a brilliant strategic design decision realizing the tactical reaction times required in the AC50 by combining tactician and helm in one role.  By separating the go-fast functions (foil and wing trim) from steering and giving PB helm and tactics, they had identified the purity of AC racing.  In many ways, AC 50 racing was closer to racing a Laser than the IACC boats.   

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The sentence you replied to was specifically about PARTICIPATION not spectating.  Motor racing isn't a "major participant sport" unless you count the 23rd or 35th most popular sport as "major".  Australia, for example, has per capita a larger motorsport sector than the USA but motor racing is only the 23rd most popular organised sport there, and it drops down further when one counts overall participation. In NZ it sits at almost the same spot among all sports. In England and the USA it's little more popular although at the moment I'm not going to dredge up the figures because they don't have the national surveys that Aust and NZ have.

Why should the top level of a sport be similar to the mainstream? Because it seems to work in terms of creating a larger sport with more participants. And when you get people like the head of the UK motorsport association saying that F1's high-cost image HINDERS the growth of motorsport (because people see it and believe that car racing is too hard to get into) why should we ignore the issue?  Are you seriously saying that we should continue to promote an F1-style model while completely ignoring the issues? 

The motorsport model is a crap one to follow if you want a major participant sport, as is demonstrated by the fact that despite the enormous amounts of money poured in by the vast parent industry - the sort of parent industry that sailing does not have - motor racing gets only about as many participants as sports like badminton, canoeing and scuba diving. Why emulate the 23rd-30th most popular sport instead of the ones that are three to eight times more popular???

Remarks on the web would indicate that many sailors don't understand what is going on in a modern AC race, nor do they understand the intricacies of boatspeed. Unless you are going to provide so actual data to back up your claim that "most sailing enthusiasts" understand it then it's just noise. By the way, I don't know if you have sailed foilers, fast cats, offshore-size cats, AC boats and Lasers but having done so I'm pretty damn sure that there is more difference between an AC50 and a Laser than between an IACC boat and a Laser.

 

 

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Again Jay, why do you think the AC should at all be about promoting sailing participation?

The ancillary events like the commendable Eandevor Program, even the next-level RBYAC programs - sure. 

But if you're into a different space like Lasers and Opti's then why not just focus your attention on dinghie racing events? 

 

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1- Lots of people claimed that having multis in the AC would be a positive change for the sport and increase participation. Since those claims were made why can't the topic be discussed?

2- More importantly, information from a wide variety of sources, from the Gemba and Vanguard reports into the perception of sailing to remarks to the UK parliament by the head of British motorsport, indicate that Russellvision could fuck the sport up. Why do you want to deny people the right to speak out when the sport could be being fucked up?

The entire edifice of the AC relies on people like Coutts, Ainslie, Slingsby etc being taught to sail little boats in little clubs run by volunteers. To ignore the possible effects of the AC on the foundations of the event is just silly. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, The Jay said:

The sentence you replied to was specifically about PARTICIPATION not spectating.  Motor racing isn't a "major participant sport" unless you count the 23rd or 35th most popular sport as "major".  Australia, for example, has per capita a larger motorsport sector than the USA but motor racing is only the 23rd most popular organised sport there, and it drops down further when one counts overall participation. In NZ it sits at almost the same spot among all sports. In England and the USA it's little more popular although at the moment I'm not going to dredge up the figures because they don't have the national surveys that Aust and NZ have.

Why should the top level of a sport be similar to the mainstream? Because it seems to work in terms of creating a larger sport with more participants. And when you get people like the head of the UK motorsport association saying that F1's high-cost image HINDERS the growth of motorsport (because people see it and believe that car racing is too hard to get into) why should we ignore the issue?  Are you seriously saying that we should continue to promote an F1-style model while completely ignoring the issues? 

The motorsport model is a crap one to follow if you want a major participant sport, as is demonstrated by the fact that despite the enormous amounts of money poured in by the vast parent industry - the sort of parent industry that sailing does not have - motor racing gets only about as many participants as sports like badminton, canoeing and scuba diving. Why emulate the 23rd-30th most popular sport instead of the ones that are three to eight times more popular???

Remarks on the web would indicate that many sailors don't understand what is going on in a modern AC race, nor do they understand the intricacies of boatspeed. Unless you are going to provide so actual data to back up your claim that "most sailing enthusiasts" understand it then it's just noise. By the way, I don't know if you have sailed foilers, fast cats, offshore-size cats, AC boats and Lasers but having done so I'm pretty damn sure that there is more difference between an AC50 and a Laser than between an IACC boat and a Laser.

 

 

As usual here whenever F1 comes up the alternate facts show up..motor racing in the US is huge, most big towns have a track which could be karting, 1/4 midgets, midgets, any number of USAC/NASCAR junior/senior classes, there are also club racing FF, F4, sports car races, NASCAR , Indy car with feeder classes, Imsa, sprint car races, Drag Car racing with many classes...to equate it to badminton shows that you have not researched the subject you claim to know so much about...

You defend the last AC which had no interest to the sector it was aimed at, face bookers, Joe Sixpackers and alienated the sailors who actually had an interest in the AC..it attracted virtually no new sailors to the sport which was part of lazzavisions reason for cats..

As for your diffences between classes I notice no ever talks about an TP88 version of the 52, in an offshore race with the chance of 25/30 knts of breeze...check out big air Med Cup races, the difference between them and 50 cats is that they maybe slower than cats in 15 knts but they look so much more dramatic and the sailors are actually making the boat go fast rather than pumping oil....I don't expect you to get it...

 

 

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In "Motorsport going global" they say that there were 430,000 US participants in motorsport. The Motorsports Industry Association say " 400,000+ participants" so let's assume 430,000 is right. That's actually not a major participant sport, and surely we can safely assume that the sector's own industry body is not trying to keep the sport a secret in its own promotional material.

If you google the participation in the other sports I used as comparison, you will see that that they attract more participants by far than motorsport does ACCORDING TO THE MIA'S OWN FIGURES. So if you're going to sling shit at these numbers then you'll have to claim that you know more than the MIA does about the size of US motorsport - and that the MIA under-plays the size of motorsport while trying to promote it.:wacko:

Here, for contrast, is the Outdoor Recreation participation report. Compare the size of the participant numbers in fairly low-profile sports to the number of people in motor racing and it seems pretty apparent that the motor racing model is not a good one to follow if you want to get people racing. 

I haven't "defended the last AC" at all. Not once have I said that it was of interest to facebookers. I've never said it's attracted new sailors to the sport - I think it will turn many of them off. You apparently have been reading someone else's posts. I reckon a TP88 would be a damn fine AC boat so it appears that you've got my posts confused with those of someone else. Please don't claim I wrote things I did not.

And finally, as I clearly said, other countries have major national sports participation surveys such as ERASS, which confirm that in other countries motor racing is NOT a major participant sport. Try looking outside the USA as well, there's a whole world out there.........

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The comparison with motor racing is flawed. I guess most AC fans like it because they like to sail. The same for motor racing, most people that watch it likes to drive a car. Now just count the number of cars vs sailboats and you have the fan base.

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@The Jay you did notice that that report shows that, after a poor couple of years in 2006/7, participation in sailing in the US has been stable for the last 10 years at 4 millions +/- 200k? If anything you can point to a boom of sorts in the early recession, followed by shrinkage and bottoming out in 2010 and steady growth from there.

 

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Yep, but tracing the drivers is harder. There seems to be no correlation with having an AC in either monos or multis and growth; the peak year (2009) was after there hadn't been an AC for two years. The worst year was the one when the AC72s raced.

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You're the only one making a link to participation on here.

Sports with big participation in competition tend to also to be viable for professional athletes. No suprise there.

A none competative sport has to be really big for professional athletes to make a living, and then mostly in bastardised pseudo cpmpetative showcases.

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11 hours ago, The Jay said:

In "Motorsport going global" they say that there were 430,000 US participants in motorsport. The Motorsports Industry Association say " 400,000+ participants" so let's assume 430,000 is right. That's actually not a major participant sport, and surely we can safely assume that the sector's own industry body is not trying to keep the sport a secret in its own promotional material.

If you google the participation in the other sports I used as comparison, you will see that that they attract more participants by far than motorsport does ACCORDING TO THE MIA'S OWN FIGURES. So if you're going to sling shit at these numbers then you'll have to claim that you know more than the MIA does about the size of US motorsport - and that the MIA under-plays the size of motorsport while trying to promote it.:wacko:

Here, for contrast, is the Outdoor Recreation participation report. Compare the size of the participant numbers in fairly low-profile sports to the number of people in motor racing and it seems pretty apparent that the motor racing model is not a good one to follow if you want to get people racing. 

I haven't "defended the last AC" at all. Not once have I said that it was of interest to facebookers. I've never said it's attracted new sailors to the sport - I think it will turn many of them off. You apparently have been reading someone else's posts. I reckon a TP88 would be a damn fine AC boat so it appears that you've got my posts confused with those of someone else. Please don't claim I wrote things I did not.

And finally, as I clearly said, other countries have major national sports participation surveys such as ERASS, which confirm that in other countries motor racing is NOT a major participant sport. Try looking outside the USA as well, there's a whole world out there.........

There's a whole other world of US motor racing outside of your statistics..I would bet if you just looked at karting and concession kart league racing you could come up with your numbers..how about the thousands of employees at Penske, Gannassi, Hendrick, Gibbs Racing to name a few who are directly involved with the running of race cars, are they considered participants?

i don't believe that AC cats have any effect on the participation in sailing..young or old, but virtually every race car driver starts in karting...

i apolagise for confusing someone else's post with yours..

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14 hours ago, ro! said:

As usual here whenever F1 comes up the alternate facts show up..motor racing in the US is huge, most big towns have a track which could be karting, 1/4 midgets, midgets, any number of USAC/NASCAR junior/senior classes, there are also club racing FF, F4, sports car races, NASCAR , Indy car with feeder classes, Imsa, sprint car races, Drag Car racing with many classes...to equate it to badminton shows that you have not researched the subject you claim to know so much about...

You defend the last AC which had no interest to the sector it was aimed at, face bookers, Joe Sixpackers and alienated the sailors who actually had an interest in the AC..it attracted virtually no new sailors to the sport which was part of lazzavisions reason for cats..

As for your diffences between classes I notice no ever talks about an TP88 version of the 52, in an offshore race with the chance of 25/30 knts of breeze...check out big air Med Cup races, the difference between them and 50 cats is that they maybe slower than cats in 15 knts but they look so much more dramatic and the sailors are actually making the boat go fast rather than pumping oil....I don't expect you to get it...

 

 

I must be 'no one' as I have been a proponent of such a box rule for the AC a long time. I have even suggested a test event in 52's to see how the boats are in that mode. A lot of people really like that video of ETNZ in the last race they ever sailed when it was honking in the 20-30 range and with the kite up they were haulin' and throwing water everywhere. I have seen the old Artemis boat do the same along with Q and the rest.

A much better replacement for the old IACC's than cats that skate around in a box.

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^^^Both the 'pumping oil' and 'cats that skate around in a box' were a result of the rule, not the type of boat.  So, monohulls could be perceived with the same disdain under a similar rule.  As for seaworthyness, hopefully you are both experienced enough sailors that you know that there are multihulls that can handle any offshore condition that a TP52, Maxi 72, or IACC could, with better pace around the track...and fewer crew.

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Was reading the recent Verdier interview again. In case it wasn't in the original version posted (was it?) :

 

> Do not find damage to put the AC50 in the trash?

Ce serait intelligent de garder les AC50 et de faire une "box-rules" autour, c'est-à-dire d'ouvrir l'architecture en partant de la base actuelle. It would be smart to keep the AC50s and make a "box-rules" around, that is to open the architecture from the current base. Ce serait intéressant, ça me plairait. It would be interesting, I would like it. C'est un avis très personnel mais on pourrait laisser tout ouvert. It is a very personal opinion but we could leave everything open. D'un point de vue économique, ce serait pas mal, il y a déjà un certain nombre de bateaux qui existent. From an economic point of view, it would not be bad, there are already a number of boats that exist. On pourrait les faire évoluer, les faire perdurer, ce serait une chouette dynamique. We could make them evolve, make them last, it would be a great dynamic. Cela permettrait à ceux qui en possèdent de continuer et à d'autres de les racheter. This would allow those who own it to continue and others to redeem them. J'avais pensé la même chose pour les AC72, je trouvais dommage de balancer les AC72, il aurait fallu continuer sur la même base et développer autour, au lieu de les mettre à la poubelle. I had thought the same thing for the AC72, I found it a shame to swing the AC72, it would have been necessary to continue on the same basis and develop around, instead of putting them in the trash. Selon moi, la taille idéale, c'est un peu plus que 50 pieds, peut-être 60 ou 65 pieds. I think the ideal size is a little over 50 feet, maybe 60 or 65 feet.
 
 
 

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46 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Was reading the recent Verdier interview again. In case it wasn't in the original version posted (was it?) :

 

> Do not find damage to put the AC50 in the trash?

Ce serait intelligent de garder les AC50 et de faire une "box-rules" autour, c'est-à-dire d'ouvrir l'architecture en partant de la base actuelle. It would be smart to keep the AC50s and make a "box-rules" around, that is to open the architecture from the current base. Ce serait intéressant, ça me plairait. It would be interesting, I would like it. C'est un avis très personnel mais on pourrait laisser tout ouvert. It is a very personal opinion but we could leave everything open. D'un point de vue économique, ce serait pas mal, il y a déjà un certain nombre de bateaux qui existent. From an economic point of view, it would not be bad, there are already a number of boats that exist. On pourrait les faire évoluer, les faire perdurer, ce serait une chouette dynamique. We could make them evolve, make them last, it would be a great dynamic. Cela permettrait à ceux qui en possèdent de continuer et à d'autres de les racheter. This would allow those who own it to continue and others to redeem them. J'avais pensé la même chose pour les AC72, je trouvais dommage de balancer les AC72, il aurait fallu continuer sur la même base et développer autour, au lieu de les mettre à la poubelle. I had thought the same thing for the AC72, I found it a shame to swing the AC72, it would have been necessary to continue on the same basis and develop around, instead of putting them in the trash. Selon moi, la taille idéale, c'est un peu plus que 50 pieds, peut-être 60 ou 65 pieds. I think the ideal size is a little over 50 feet, maybe 60 or 65 feet.
 
 
 

Great idea, for the AC, for sailing and even more for foil evolution

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Posted yet? Podcast, Stan Honey starts about an hour into it

--


Clean’s back, this time with his final America’s Cup thoughts, and this time, with a slew of experts to dig into it with.  First, two longtime yachting scribes 6 decades of AC coverage between them; Associated Press sailing correspondent Bernie Wilson and longtime Aussie scribe Rob Mundle, who pull no punches in an analysis of went went right and wrong on the business and media end of AC35.

Next, a tech talk with the man behind the on-screen broadcast graphics known as Liveline, multiple world-record-holding navigator Stan Honey.  Find out what it will take for other events to get the kind of broadcast tech the Cup enjoys, and hear more ultra-geeky TV tech info from the ultimate tech geek.

Finally, a chat with America’s fastest foiler, double Moth world champion Bora Gulari, about the recent carnage in the Mackinac Race, his picks for the Moth Worlds, and his overall thoughts about an America’s Cup he was once destined for with Luna Rossa: Foil design, controls, and a great discussion on what Bora would like to see in the next America’s Cup (hint, it ain’t a multihull!).

http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/07/24/thats-a-wrap-5/

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I'm amazed at how dead sure so many armchair sailors here are. I'm not.

It's too soon to conclude whether the foiling cats have or would increased participation, but there's certainly no proof yet. Sailing participation has been declining since the 80's, all while the AC was contested in monohulls. Whether the AC can or should help grow sailing can be debated. But there's no question increasing mass appeal to increase participation was a fundamental goal of OR for the AC's in 2013 and 2017.

Quote

After the 2010 debacle: To ‘to do’ list is long but near the top is a commitment to turn sailing into a more compelling, understandable spectator sport for a wider, uninitiated audience. That’s a TV or online audience. Finding ways to achieve that began last weekend.
http://www.yachtingworld.com/news/bmw-oracles-vision-for-the-americas-cup-8058#RRGhAE3F0j9PKjwW.99

Quote

From the 2017 agreement (that NZ did not sign): The framework agreement provides stability and gives interested teams an opportunity to plan longer term. It establishes a modern sporting, technology and design challenge, within which costs are controlled to provide a much lower entry price, which will encourage more teams to be involved and ultimately create larger audiences and help incentivize more people to go sailing. http://oracle-team-usa.americascup.com/en/news/271_New-Framework-Agreement-Creates-Strong-Future-For-The-Americas-Cup.html

 

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1 hour ago, rgeek said:

Surprised some of ye haven't been staining the bed sheets over this already... https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fdroneprojectsrl%2Fvideos%2F1924281144477046%2F&show_text=0&width=560

Looks f'in tedious to me I have to say.

Ponderous dogs of things?

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6 hours ago, ro! said:

There's a whole other world of US motor racing outside of your statistics..I would bet if you just looked at karting and concession kart league racing you could come up with your numbers..how about the thousands of employees at Penske, Gannassi, Hendrick, Gibbs Racing to name a few who are directly involved with the running of race cars, are they considered participants?

i don't believe that AC cats have any effect on the participation in sailing..young or old, but virtually every race car driver starts in karting...

i apolagise for confusing someone else's post with yours..

Okay, so let's add in cart stats: from KMI.com, sourced from Kart Marketing Group, Inc., National Kart News, Karting Industry Council and Commission Internationale du Karting circa 2006.

"US PRODUCT SALES: 
RACE KARTS Estimated new units sold annually: 10,500 
Estimated net sales: $57,500,000 
Estimated active participants: 80,000

Estimated kart racers worldwide:
1.5 to 2 million."

So even if the karters were not included by the MSI motor racing is still not a major participant sport, and therefore the motor racing model does not look like a good one to follow if one wants to increase participation.

Whether the employees of motor racing firms are considered participants is (in terms of looking at the effect of sporting rules on participation) no more relevant than working out whether the people who make cricket stumps or work in the injection moulding industry delivering injection-moulded plastic kayak paddles are considered participants. The simple point is that many people have said the AC should be like F1, but the comparatively small size of motor racing as a participant sport indicates that the model is not a good one to follow if one wants to increase participation as some do.

None of this is iron-clad proof and it's never been said that it is, but it's arguably a lot better than the alternative which is to go against just about every numerical indicator, the studies of the perception of sailing, and the enormous amount of work that has been done on barriers to entry to sport.

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48 minutes ago, MidPack said:

 

 

48 minutes ago, MidPack said:

From the 2017 agreement (that NZ did not sign): The framework agreement provides stability and gives interested teams an opportunity to plan longer term. It establishes a modern sporting, technology and design challenge, within which costs are controlled to provide a much lower entry price, which will encourage more teams to be involved and ultimately create larger audiences and help incentivize more people to go sailing. http://oracle-team-usa.americascup.com/en/news/271_New-Framework-Agreement-Creates-Strong-Future-For-The-Americas-Cup.html

Thank you for finding that; it certainly puts some claims to bed.

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From the FP interview I am with Bora:. Call it the Atlas Moth - a super sized moth with righting movement provided by multiple hiking crew say 8 - no lead ballast.  Length say 62 ft.  Maybe with automated battery powered flight control but no hydraulics or engines, flaps permitted.  A wide wind range  one hull only but foils in any direction only limited in number...  Say four with only the total surface again in a box rule.  Wings can be wide, but boat should be launched easily.  Soft sail only - jib / gennaker optional.   For heavy winds a larger heavier crew permitted with a bonus for female and youth sailors...

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In the AC35 presser, I thought GD said the protocol was going to be shared a few weeks after ETNZ won. I'm sure I'm the last to know but evidently we're not going to hear until Sept? That's far too much time for more pointless bickering FFS! Jeeeeeeeez...

http://www.rnzys.org.nz/2017/07/19/36th-americas-cup-announcement/

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To the multi crowd out there:

 

you have made your case case on many levels that since the AC has moved into multis and now foiling multis that any other platform will be a step backwards and a "travesty".  

 

So so what if they go to monohulls?  What then?

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30 minutes ago, sailman said:

To the multi crowd out there:

 

you have made your case case on many levels that since the AC has moved into multis and now foiling multis that any other platform will be a step backwards and a "travesty".  

 

So so what if they go to monohulls?  What then?

Depends entirely on the specific monohull. While I hope they continue with the ACC or something much like it (maybe without stored energy), there are certainly monohulls with at least some open design elements that would make for an interesting AC. I am not hoping for pure OD, though that would maximize tactics. However, if they listen to displacement monohull supporters, like 12-meters as some have suggested, it would be extremely boring IMO. I like classic yachts like 12-meters and the J/Class boats, but they're long past their time as an AC format in my opinion.

Unlike some here, my views on nationality, boats and some other AC elements has changed some...

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On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 5:04 AM, Eiar said:

From the FP interview I am with Bora:. Call it the Atlas Moth - a super sized moth with righting movement provided by multiple hiking crew say 8 - no lead ballast.  Length say 62 ft.  Maybe with automated battery powered flight control but no hydraulics or engines, flaps permitted.  A wide wind range  one hull only but foils in any direction only limited in number...  Say four with only the total surface again in a box rule.  Wings can be wide, but boat should be launched easily.  Soft sail only - jib / gennaker optional.   For heavy winds a larger heavier crew permitted with a bonus for older fat guys who would relish the chance to sail an AC, female, and youth sailors...

Fixed it for you...

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and as the idea gains traction why not aim for twenty challengers - saw some recent planning proposals from a lobby group for eight bases only - would that number not be a real indictment..?  imagine the sight of twenty Atlas Moths with multi-generational crew - Santiago Lange would be great to be on one!  Carbon-based, computer flight control, base design package offered to all comers, but most elements free to alter...  so a base design package start for all rather than one design...

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