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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
MidPack

Poll: Next AC Boat

Next AC Boat?   636 members have voted

  1. 1. Next AC Boat?

    • Foiling cat very similar to AC35 boats
      191
    • Another foiling multihull
      127
    • Displacement monohull
      140
    • Foiling monohull
      160
    • Other
      18

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

930 posts in this topic

9 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I think a good test for whether an AC boat is suitable should be: Once the AC is over, is it possible for a charter company to buy the boat and sail it. Not sail it well mind you. JUST sail it at all. If not, then how are most people supposed to relate to it?

A mono with wing sail and canting keel most likely falls into this category although impractical due to the logistics of putting the wing sail up.

In contrast it would be impossible for a charter company to sail an AC50 AT ALL unless it stayed completely in displacement mode and even then, would they have the skills to stop it rearing up and then turning ugly?

OMG, that is the worst possible criteria i could imagine.  you don't buy formula one cars to drop the kids at school.  ironically with some minor adjucmtment, like a hydraulic motor and some automation it would be pretty easy, not withstanding the wing sail problem.

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Resale value? Who gives a rat's flatulence when it comes to Americas Cup. This has again nothing to do with the competition. A secondhand foiling cat dealership? Hello. Most of them will go to maritime museums anyway. However I don't agree with the cyclos/grinders but the former is a brilliant solution for a real problem in producing power for foil/wing actuation. With held power of some sort the superb AC50s would require two or three less crew. And this will occur for the next series.

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On 2017-6-28 at 4:37 AM, Kiwi xtreme said:

65ft foiling cats. soft sails and auto foil control system so less power required. 

Ditch the sails too, and make it a motor boat race.. Americans will then start to understand a boat race..

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10 minutes ago, StumbleNola said:

So let me get this right... you want the best sailors in the world, on boats that cost millions to build and tens of millions to campaign, racing for the most prestigious trophy in all of sailing, to have design decisions dictated by what type of boat my 70 year old father, who considers an Ultimate 20 to be high performance, can sail? Ya fuck that with trannies dick. 

 

 

We'll until the 72s all AC boats fit that bill and in fact the 72s were SUPPOSED to fit that bill until etnz figured out how to foil them.

But anyway, tell me more about this trannies dick.

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Just now, viraproas said:

CANTING KEEL FAST MONOHULL. LARGE (70-90 ft)

you think that will result in tacking duels,  yeah right

 

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47 minutes ago, jaysper said:

We'll until the 72s all AC boats fit that bill and in fact the 72s were SUPPOSED to fit that bill until etnz figured out how to foil them.

But anyway, tell me more about this trannies dick.

except they make them out of alloy core carbon which has a pretty short lifespan and not designed to stay in the water.  non of these boat will be much better than museum pieces in 3-4 years, even if they were likely to be sailed again.  

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1 minute ago, Qman said:

you think that will result in tacking duels,  yeah right

 

I definitely think so. I think it would be cool to have to power the keel from one side to the other manually, so you add athletic factor in, and see who tan cant it faster.

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2 minutes ago, viraproas said:

I definitely think so. I think it would be cool to have to power the keel from one side to the other manually, so you add athletic factor in, and see who tan cant it faster.

just imagine how many cyclops you would need to cant a 10 tonne bulb. 

 

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57 minutes ago, antoine said:

Ditch the sails too, and make it a motor boat race.. Americans will then start to understand a boat race..

It'd certainly improve VMG for OTUSA too.;) 

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Just now, Qman said:

just imagine how many cyclops you would need to cant a 10 tonne bulb. 

Spell check can be a bitch.

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20 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 

That's not even the biggest part of the problem with soft sails, which is their range.  I talked to Salty about this at length; he said because of how much apparent wind the boat develops, soft sails become extremely limited because they cannot be flattened out like a wing can.  The ability to remove all the camber is what allows the wing to work whether the boat is seeing 6 knots of apparent wind or 46 knots of apparent wind, which could all happen on the same leg...even with major tech improvements, I don't know a sailmaker who can build that one!

So you end up with a quiver of mainsails and a quiver of jibs, and if you pick the wrong one, it's dangerous as hell.  

I don't actually see the problem - quick sail changes before a race mean the crew work is back, and being caught with too much sail up means more drama.  all good!  Other than the weight of all those sails adding up...maybe a hybrid like we've seen in a few boats, with a wing and soft sail combination?  Maybe smaller than it could be, so they have to use the soft portion to get going after a maneuver or during a start, then they have to roll it up as they pick up speed?  There's another good yachtie job on the boat, and you can do it with a winch

Maybe i'm not catching everything between the lines here but do you want a wing or soft sails? :)

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4 minutes ago, Alpina said:

Maybe i'm not catching everything between the lines here but do you want a wing or soft sails? :)

It's completely clear. The answer is yes :D

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Foiling - Does not make good sailing and races

Wings - reduces the skill in trimming

Cats - Require reaching starts.. boring

 

Foiling, Winged cats make great FLEET racing, but boring match racing. The AC is a match racing regatta. Ya, flame away with what world match racing has done. I don't buy it. 

But, again, I want proper consolidation of fleets. AC can either choose to go towards VOR/Vendee or they can choose to go towards WMRT, or towards TP52 or stay status quo. 

 

I"d put a buck it will end up being one of those options and not something outside of the box

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I say 62' box rule displacement cat, all manual, probably still winged.

 

I wouldn't particularly mind a somewhat more open version of the AC50s but with GD saying he doesn't think they'd work in Auckland I think thats out.

Also I'm not entirely averse to some modern monohull type but adding canting, dali foils etc would rapidly ramp up the cost & need for stored power.

 

For a more sailorly boat with less/no power & electronics, soft sails, extras you need to slow the boats down. A lot.

 

I think to kill off the power/electronics you have to step back to the more passive AC72 type V foils but even those boats gave up on extras because they were already too fast.

If you step back to a semi-foiler you keep a lot of the complication & expense without much of the advantage.

 

So I think displacement cats which also means hull design is very relevant, hull flying looks better & more interesting than flat foiling.

62' was going to be the class before the change to 50' & its a decent size for a cat without being super expensive.

I'd kind of like to see a formula rule with length/beam/weight/sail-area are trade-off within certain range but I don't believe there has ever been a successful formula rule for multis, would probably be very expensive on the design side & likely to result in everyone pushing the same corner -> box rule is probably the simplest & cheapest.

There is ample knowledge out there to expect a 62' displacement cat to be properly engineered but may be worthwhile having something like one-design main beams.

 

Wing or not is a question for the teams/designers who have the most experience with the costs of campaigning big wings vs soft sails.

There are significant advantages & cool/tech factor to the wings but I worry about the raising/lowering factor.

I like the idea of a size-changeable wing to optimise for wind range but I think they ran into technical issues with it when they tried with the AC45s.

If you do 2 sizes then teams will need 4 wings because it'd be a guaranteed loss going out with the wrong size if they broke one, 2 which can change size would be better.

If the platform size is right existing AC50 wings could be grandfathered & re-used at least initially.

 

The big down-side: It'd be back to the future, fundamentally not that different from BBDDCs '88 cat :o

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8 hours ago, The Jay said:

Aren't you just stereotyping the younger sailors and younger generation as a whole? What evidence do you have that they want hyperformance expensive sports gear? 

Can I ask how many younger sailors you race with and against? What was the age of the people you talked with last time you went down to the local club, for instance? I'm still occasionally sailing with youth, regularly racing against them, and coaching the uni sailing club. The ones I know, who are part of enormously strong classes of cheap and simple boats, aspire to do the sailing that they can actually do, not to something they can't do and can't afford. And the classes these kids sail are getting enormous fleets.

The kids (and everyone else) are staying away from the "leading edge" classes in droves. 400 or so boats a year being built (which is about the number of foiling boats being built after a decade of heavy promotion and being used in two ACs) is not going to grow the sport around the world - in fact it's not enough to keep it going in one major country.

Based on several of your posts, you're big on proof by exception aren't you? A few small exceptions aren't evidence of larger trends.

Are you honestly suggesting sailing hasn't declined substantially for the generations younger than Boomers, and as a result overall? There's tons of data, just one example of all of it in one place in the book below.

Yes, junior sailing (summer camp/babysitting for some parents) has continued and done well in many areas but it's also well documented that most juniors haven't gone on to become adult sailors or boat owners like Boomers did. Cost is more of an issue for sailing for all ages now, but it's only part of the problem for juniors.

What sports/activities are attracting the younger generation these days - skateboarding, snowboarding and various extreme sports - all of them are fast, not 6 knots. It may not make a difference in the end due to costs - but faster boats (foiling is one way), have a better chance of attracting next generations than ponderous old displacement monohulls. That's what younger generations have "stayed away from in droves."

And it's much too soon to know if affordable foilers will help. The foilers that have been produced have been relatively expensive so far, but hopefully more affordable, easier handling foilers will be in our near future. Dave & Steve Clark may have the first affordable production success.

 

saving%20sailing.jpg

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Correct option wasn't listed. Needs to be a planing monohull similar to TP52, Volvo 70, etc.

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Jaysper +1  Mono creakers 100 percent nationals, helmsman bloke from some native club will be just fine and I hope the dude is a Maori...

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There is a complete lack of respect for the tradition of America's Cup here. The trophy should return to its roots:

1. Two masted monohull with widest point of the beam placed 1/3rd of the length aft of the bow.

2. All competitor boats must compete in at least one "Round the Isle of Wight" race prior to the AC match.

3. Crew of: Professional Skipper + 8 professional crew + owner and 2 friends or relatives.....(or in case of syndicate, 3 owners) .   The professional crew must be country of origin nationals but the owners can and should be from anywhere.

4. Best of seven races. One per day. Challenger of record is limited to one boat throughout the series.The Defender can choose from a selection of defending boats on the morning of each race and can change boats halfway through the series.(True traditionalists will affectionately remember the first AC match series where Columbia defended vs Livonia in the first three races and then Sappho stepped in to represent the defender for the next two races.....and they used soft sails!)

5.Challenger yacht MUST sail to the venue on their own hull.  Cummon guys, that was in the amended deed of gift.....think how mush better the  racing will be in Auckland harbour if the challengers have to sail to NZ to participate.

I hope that true traditionalists who yearn for the excitement of slow moving monohulls, and ropes,  and crews wearing horizontal striped jerseys running forward to the bow.....will rally round and unite around this proposal. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Tomfl said:

Maybe a little old school but I look at the first America's Cup and wonder why the original format was changed.  Yea, I know about the Deed of Gift.  But still the first race was around the Isle of Wright and I would bet a nickle that the schooner America did not get to England on a container ship.  So before I choose a boat type I will say the venue should be similar to sailing around the Isle of Wright, not in some flat water location.  And the boats should have to get to the race location on their own, not being shipped there.

Not sure if you are serious or not, but these ideas are (a) nuts and (b) romanticizing the original race without recognizing what actually happened. 

First off, the America did sail across the ocean on its own but then went directly into a ship yard (in France, if I remember the book Low Black Schooner well enough) for refits to make it better suited to racing around the Isle of Wight. So if we were to envision a modern equivalent, teams could sail a Volvo 60 across the ocean, take it into the chop shop, and come out with a foiling cat. Maybe they could keep a 6-foot section of the original in some part of the boat that doesn't matter much for performance so that they could say it was constructed in country...

Secondly, the first race was a parade. The America lead nearly the entire time, even accounting for a long period during which she got caught in irons. The race was boring even by 19th century standards. Many of the British boats didn't even want to race her because they recognized from the get-go that the America arrived with a better, more modern design. 

Fundamentally the format has been changed, many times over, to make the racing better, to encourage more design risks (like the America herself, like Reliance, like Australia II, like the cyclors), and to make the racing generally, outside some fairly major exceptions, fairer.

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8 hours ago, Pogmite said:

AC 50 foilers need flat water. The racing should be done in the ocean. long races in brutally big fast boats, maybe even to places or around stuff.

Skip the formula one analagies, shore side stadiums, And wrestling pay per view concepts. It's turned the event into public relations "plastic fest" and I suspect that it doesn't make economic sense anyway. It doesn't ring very genuine. The commentators spend half their time explaining how bitchen it all is.

Big monos could be interesting but need canting keels to keep the draft down. And that gets back how big an engine do you need to tack quickly. Daly foils would only work off the wind in a breeze obviously, but I doubt they could be used very much in any kind ballasted mono. I own a Six Meter so I am partial to monos beyond reason.

I have seen Spindrift. She is a monster. Can do 40 knots and handle all sort of conditions. It seems to me a 80-100' trimaran could fill the bill of spectacle and seaworthiness and get into most relevant harbors. Soft sails or partial wings, ama foils, maybe full foiling. Maybe some sort of one design aspect to limit development costs.  No central stored energy to run sail systems. There would be enough crew to run the sails and the tris would be big enough to carry the weight of the additional crew. If they can't afford the payroll then they aren't asking the right people to crew. 

 

What is with this fetish for catamarans, SUPERFOILER TRIMARANS WILL PROVE that trimarans are faster,stronger and even be reusable after the event. throw away boats built on a narrow band are dangerous as hell and catamarans ARE OVER! 

 

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14 hours ago, Tomfl said:

Maybe a little old school but I look at the first America's Cup and wonder why the original format was changed.  Yea, I know about the Deed of Gift.  But still the first race was around the Isle of Wright

The America's Cup was deeded in 1857.  The trophy that was donated and re-purposed for the America's Cup was indeed the Royal Yacht Squadron 100 Sovereign Cup (or Queens Cup) from the RYS 1851 Annual Regatta around the IOW but the first race for the "America's Cup" took place in New York Harbor in 1870. 

The yacht America did participate in the first America's Cup and finished fourth. Magic was the first winner of the AC. It changed to a match racing format the following year in 1871.

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31 minutes ago, IPLore said:

There is a complete lack of respect for the tradition of America's Cup here. The trophy should return to its roots:

1. Two masted monohull with widest point of the beam placed 1/3rd of the length aft of the bow.

2. All competitor boats must compete in at least one "Round the Isle of Wight" race prior to the AC match.

3. Crew of: Professional Skipper + 8 professional crew + owner and 2 friends or relatives.....(or in case of syndicate, 3 owners) .   The professional crew must be country of origin nationals but the owners can and should be from anywhere.

4. Best of seven races. One per day. Challenger of record is limited to one boat throughout the series.The Defender can choose from a selection of defending boats on the morning of each race and can change boats halfway through the series.(True traditionalists will affectionately remember the first AC match series where Columbia defended vs Livonia in the first three races and then Sappho stepped in to represent the defender for the next two races.....and they used soft sails!)

5.Challenger yacht MUST sail to the venue on their own hull.  Cummon guys, that was in the amended deed of gift.....think how mush better the  racing will be in Auckland harbour if the challengers have to sail to NZ to participate.

I hope that true traditionalists who yearn for the excitement of slow moving monohulls, and ropes,  and crews wearing horizontal striped jerseys running forward to the bow.....will rally round and unite around this proposal. 

+{...semblance of order/tradition would guild it and should have remained in place.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, BobBill said:

I screwed up, meant to join with IPIOR comment. +1 as it were.

 

 

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

There is a complete lack of respect for the tradition of America's Cup here. The trophy should return to its roots:

1. Two masted monohull with widest point of the beam placed 1/3rd of the length aft of the bow.

2. All competitor boats must compete in at least one "Round the Isle of Wight" race prior to the AC match.

3. Crew of: Professional Skipper + 8 professional crew + owner and 2 friends or relatives.....(or in case of syndicate, 3 owners) .   The professional crew must be country of origin nationals but the owners can and should be from anywhere.

4. Best of seven races. One per day. Challenger of record is limited to one boat throughout the series.The Defender can choose from a selection of defending boats on the morning of each race and can change boats halfway through the series.(True traditionalists will affectionately remember the first AC match series where Columbia defended vs Livonia in the first three races and then Sappho stepped in to represent the defender for the next two races.....and they used soft sails!)

5.Challenger yacht MUST sail to the venue on their own hull.  Cummon guys, that was in the amended deed of gift.....think how mush better the  racing will be in Auckland harbour if the challengers have to sail to NZ to participate.

I hope that true traditionalists who yearn for the excitement of slow moving monohulls, and ropes,  and crews wearing horizontal striped jerseys running forward to the bow.....will rally round and unite around this proposal. 

 

 

#5 is just a disgusting rule ensuring that challengers boat will always be heavier built than the defenders. 

If you're in favor of #5 in the name of tradition, then I want to see teams use lines, raw epoxy, raw carbon fiber material manufactured in their home country of origin. 

It gets to the point of absurdity and I think it's just a disguised cheap method of retaining the Cup. Something LE and RC would dream up. 

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the next boat will be one that TNZ believes they can successfully defend in including $s, design and talent.

 

Forget 70' monos going around islands. Can you imagine how boring a  "race" would be around islands if one of them was even a bit faster than the other?

 

Please. Pull your collective heads out of that orifice.

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

#5 is just a disgusting rule ensuring that challengers boat will always be heavier built than the defenders. 

If you're in favor of #5 in the name of tradition, then I want to see teams use lines, raw epoxy, raw carbon fiber material manufactured in their home country of origin. 

It gets to the point of absurdity and I think it's just a disguised cheap method of retaining the Cup. Something LE and RC would dream up. 

One would assume the OP was trying to be sarcastic...and failing at it.  Most certainly a Foiler wannabe that thinks speed is the only way to test sailing skills.

I read another post where they said kids like speed these days, with some unusual examples to justify foiling boats.  Never to they think that those foilers cannot handle extreme conditions, big wind, big waves without becoming displacement again.  THus, kids growing up in the foiling world never really learn the art of seamanship, they just stay close to shore playing with their toys.

Show me an AC50 sailing...excuse me, flying off shore from ChristChurch  in 3-4 meter waves and winds with gusts topping 30 kts....then I'd say sure give them a go.  Of course they'd be in pieces after a short time and so problem solved.  Burling could push buttons on his expanded xbox control in flat water, but when I see him helming a sailboat fully powered up in tough conditions and winning, then I'll say he's a great sailor.

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2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

the next boat will be one that TNZ believes they can successfully defend in including $s, design and talent.

 

Forget 70' monos going around islands. Can you imagine how boring a  "race" would be around islands if one of them was even a bit faster than the other?

 

Please. Pull your collective heads out of that orifice.

Boring? For whom? a Long triangle sounds exciting to this swab!

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2 hours ago, 2Newts said:

Not sure if you are serious or not, but these ideas are (a) nuts and (b) romanticizing the original race without recognizing what actually happened. 

First off, the America did sail across the ocean on its own but then went directly into a ship yard (in France, if I remember the book Low Black Schooner well enough) for refits to make it better suited to racing around the Isle of Wight. So if we were to envision a modern equivalent, teams could sail a Volvo 60 across the ocean, take it into the chop shop, and come out with a foiling cat. Maybe they could keep a 6-foot section of the original in some part of the boat that doesn't matter much for performance so that they could say it was constructed in country...

Secondly, the first race was a parade. The America lead nearly the entire time, even accounting for a long period during which she got caught in irons. The race was boring even by 19th century standards. Many of the British boats didn't even want to race her because they recognized from the get-go that the America arrived with a better, more modern design. 

Fundamentally the format has been changed, many times over, to make the racing better, to encourage more design risks (like the America herself, like Reliance, like Australia II, like the cyclors), and to make the racing generally, outside some fairly major exceptions, fairer.

You're close, but a few points: The America did sail over and went to Le Havre and was pulled-out. She had been rigged for the ocean crossing and they wanted to get her back into race mode, clean the bottom, etc. America hung-up on her anchor at the start and had to run-down the fleet and pass them all, I think she did this by the Nab. From there it was a procession until Aurora started to catch-up in the light stuff running to the finish.

They did not want to race her because of her modern design, they saw what she did to Laverock on the way in when she was still 'loaded for an East India voyage', blowing by her to weather with ease after staring in her lee. The one mistake they made on the trip.

What if, instead of delivery by their own bottom, each AC yacht had to make an ocean passage of so many miles, even the defender yacht. That would keep things even and have an ocean worthy design.

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10 minutes ago, BobBill said:

Boring? For whom? a Long triangle sounds exciting to this swab!

It would be like the DoG match, after the start, the faster boat just sails away. Ho hum 

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Bucc5062 wrote, " Show me an AC50 sailing...excuse me, flying off shore from ChristChurch  in 3-4 meter waves and winds with gusts topping 30 kts....then I'd say sure give them a go.  Of course they'd be in pieces after a short time and so problem solved.  Burling could push buttons on his expanded xbox control in flat water, but when I see him helming a sailboat fully powered up in tough conditions and winning, then I'll say he's a great sailor. "

+1. I do like the way you think!

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2 hours ago, BobBill said:

 

 

2 hours ago, IPLore said:

There is a complete lack of respect for the tradition of America's Cup here. The trophy should return to its roots:

1. Two masted monohull with widest point of the beam placed 1/3rd of the length aft of the bow.

2. All competitor boats must compete in at least one "Round the Isle of Wight" race prior to the AC match.

3. Crew of: Professional Skipper + 8 professional crew + owner and 2 friends or relatives.....(or in case of syndicate, 3 owners) .   The professional crew must be country of origin nationals but the owners can and should be from anywhere.

4. Best of seven races. One per day. Challenger of record is limited to one boat throughout the series.The Defender can choose from a selection of defending boats on the morning of each race and can change boats halfway through the series.(True traditionalists will affectionately remember the first AC match series where Columbia defended vs Livonia in the first three races and then Sappho stepped in to represent the defender for the next two races.....and they used soft sails!)

5.Challenger yacht MUST sail to the venue on their own hull.  Cummon guys, that was in the amended deed of gift.....think how mush better the  racing will be in Auckland harbour if the challengers have to sail to NZ to participate.

I hope that true traditionalists who yearn for the excitement of slow moving monohulls, and ropes,  and crews wearing horizontal striped jerseys running forward to the bow.....will rally round and unite around this proposal. 

 

 

1. Don't agree. Multis or mono at your own risk

2. More or less agree. Could be an ocean passage

3. Whatever

4. Seven races agree. The rest BS

5. Not neccesary

PD they are not going to that

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9 minutes ago, BobBill said:

Bucc5062 wrote, " Show me an AC50 sailing...excuse me, flying off shore from ChristChurch  in 3-4 meter waves and winds with gusts topping 30 kts....then I'd say sure give them a go.  Of course they'd be in pieces after a short time and so problem solved.  Burling could push buttons on his expanded xbox control in flat water, but when I see him helming a sailboat fully powered up in tough conditions and winning, then I'll say he's a great sailor. "

+1. I do like the way you think!

Let's see... DNA's F4 foiling cat has made the Newport to Bermuda run. Is the enough offshore? True she's only 45' but scaling up wouldn't be hard. 

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It was what it was, and will be what it will be. EOS? Rest is bullroar, IMHO.

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23 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

One would assume the OP was trying to be sarcastic...and failing at it.  Most certainly a Foiler wannabe that thinks speed is the only way to test sailing skills.

I read another post where they said kids like speed these days, with some unusual examples to justify foiling boats.  Never to they think that those foilers cannot handle extreme conditions, big wind, big waves without becoming displacement again.  THus, kids growing up in the foiling world never really learn the art of seamanship, they just stay close to shore playing with their toys.

Show me an AC50 sailing...excuse me, flying off shore from ChristChurch  in 3-4 meter waves and winds with gusts topping 30 kts....then I'd say sure give them a go.  Of course they'd be in pieces after a short time and so problem solved.  Burling could push buttons on his expanded xbox control in flat water, but when I see him helming a sailboat fully powered up in tough conditions and winning, then I'll say he's a great sailor.

I just wish the folks who say foiling cats or nothing would watch VG and realize that VG boats are going downwind faster solo than any foiling cat can sustain in 25 knots sustained with 2 meter waves. Or watch the crew work VOR demonstrated in port races, esp Auckland was a great one to replay. 

 

If I were drawing the course, Auckland harbor to mark by Browns Bay, shoot between regional park and Tirtitiri and back. 

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4 minutes ago, StumbleNola said:

Let's see... DNA's F4 foiling cat has made the Newport to Bermuda run. Is the enough offshore? True she's only 45' but scaling up wouldn't be hard. 

Carbon J boats...with for and aft heads...

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14 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

One would assume the OP was trying to be sarcastic...and failing at it.  Most certainly a Foiler wannabe that thinks speed is the only way to test sailing skills.

I read another post where they said kids like speed these days, with some unusual examples to justify foiling boats.  Never to they think that those foilers cannot handle extreme conditions, big wind, big waves without becoming displacement again.  THus, kids growing up in the foiling world never really learn the art of seamanship, they just stay close to shore playing with their toys.

Show me an AC50 sailing...excuse me, flying off shore from ChristChurch  in 3-4 meter waves and winds with gusts topping 30 kts....then I'd say sure give them a go.  Of course they'd be in pieces after a short time and so problem solved.  Burling could push buttons on his expanded xbox control in flat water, but when I see him helming a sailboat fully powered up in tough conditions and winning, then I'll say he's a great sailor.

1. Where ever did I say that the AC should be a test of sailing skills? My post was in support of tradition over sailing skills.

2. I agree with you and the others who support a return to the good old days of monohulls, that the current pandering to youth is misplaced. What do they know about the art of seamanship? How many of them have ever had to stand on heaving deck trying to take a sight with a sextant?  The girlie skills of fine tuning a boat hurtling over the waves at 40 knots have no place in the rugged sport of sailing. Charlie Barr was 61 years when he won the Cup in Reliance and that is the sort of experience that we need to bring back to the Cup. 

3. As we traditionalists are quick to point out, all that Burling did was push buttons on an expanded X Box. There is no evidence whatsoever that he is a great sailor. My grandson could probably beat him.  I hope that they pick a solid mutihull and put Dalts back on the helm where he deserves to be.

4. We should also have the nationality rules from the good old days where Charlie Barr (a Scotsman) and a crew entirely of Swedes represented the US , but MOST IMPORTANTLY all the money came from good Americuhns! . Team New Zealand was a scandal. There was nothing New Zealand about that team apart from the crew and the designers....it was paid for by an Italian and and Arab airline.   Follow the money I say! and bring back teams financed entirely by the country of origin. How can the Brits support a team financed by an Indian billionaire? They should find their own billionaires!  

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IPLore...mea culpa! I mis-spelled yo handle above.

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4 minutes ago, StumbleNola said:

Let's see... DNA's F4 foiling cat has made the Newport to Bermuda run. Is the enough offshore? True she's only 45' but scaling up wouldn't be hard. 

That boat is fun, not safe by any margin. They stopped foiling when a blow came and average speed was slower than what a beamy ocean monohull or foiling monohull or trimaran would have done. I think on day two they were in survival mode trying not to capsize - not even foiling. 

Can catamarans be safe? Yes. Can foiling cats be designed for more stability and automatic adjustment? Yes. But if you build those conditions into the design, would you consider it much fun? Foiling cats are like a stable four legged chair, then kick off one leg and asking the crew to stay balanced. 

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18 minutes ago, Miffy said:

I just wish the folks who say foiling cats or nothing would watch VG and realize that VG boats are going downwind faster solo than any foiling cat can sustain in 25 knots sustained with 2 meter waves. Or watch the crew work VOR demonstrated in port races, esp Auckland was a great one to replay. 

 

If I were drawing the course, Auckland harbor to mark by Browns Bay, shoot between regional park and Tirtitiri and back. 

So you are suggesting maxi foiling trimarans? 

 

Break out BankPopulaire and her new foils then I guess.  But so much for any thought of cost constraints. Or maybe step down to the Multi-70's and their L foils? 

 

Because either of them will crush a VOR in open water speed. 

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6 minutes ago, StumbleNola said:

So you are suggesting maxi foiling trimarans? 

 

Break out BankPopulaire and her new foils then I guess.  But so much for any thought of cost constraints. Or maybe step down to the Multi-70's and their L foils? 

 

Because either of them will crush a VOR in open water speed. 

I have no problem with trimarans or whatever design that bests the others ;)

 

I'm with the crowd that supports a known course with potential for real wave and gusts, with loose class rules that allow folks with money to do something new and exciting, but also allow syndicates like Nippon to build a good monohull with a deep keel (perhaps even canting for both heel and draft limiting conditions). Keel could have a denser metal than lead (obviously no DU because it's New Zealand), so it can be deep and light and streamlined . 

 

I just don't really like the cycle where we spend lots of money in a rigid box rule for the excitement of shits and giggles (like asking TdF cyclists to ride unicycles in a velodrome). 

Just ask the folks with skill and expertise and how they feel about signing up to pump oil in a boat class where their physical performance ultimately meant very little . 

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I'm guessing right now that the boats will be fully foiling 70 foot Tri's. Think new generation of Mod70. Soft sails and some kind of open ocean course and much longer races. The boats will be slower to maneuver, faster in a straightline and will be able to handle big breeze and blue water. It will almost certainly be more boring.

I think there will be a world series similar to the foiling 45 series we saw last time. 

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

 

Just ask the folks with skill and expertise and how they feel about signing up to pump oil in a boat class where their physical performance ultimately meant very little . 

Yeah , agree with that sentiment . Having Olympic level sailors doing nothing but grinding/pedalling is not necessary a huge step forward in their careers. 

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Maybe we should start another thread: What design rule will TNZ adopt - rather than (if I were king) what design rule would I like to see. 

I can think of a few likely criteria for the RNZYS:

1) apparent wind flying machine that will allow PB and BT to dominate the fleet - noting that these two are the best team in the world at exactly this. Number One: Design the rule around this pair of extraordinary sailors  

2) retain other syndicates. GD said he wanted to. 

3) play happy with ISAF. GD said he wanted to. 

4) open water (Waitamea) capable

5) more "yachtsman-like" than current generation AC50. 

I think a couple suggestions have met this criteria - basically a modified AC50 rule - flying cat retained.

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2 hours ago, BobBill said:

It was what it was, and will be what it will be. EOS? Rest is bullroar, IMHO.

If I can quote meself. Floater's first sentence +1.

Don't run into each other ratcheting around on your long-boards, boyos...If the Kiwis want to dual with 12ksbs, amen. Deal with it! Their deal, finally.

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16 hours ago, Pogmite said:

Groucho, there has to an element of sailing acumen in this. Drag racing foilers around a mill pond where one or two guys are controlling the entire craft with what looks like his cell phone around a simplified course denies the sport a great portion of the expertise that is generally required to race sailboats. I think a boat needs to be sailed by a team of people. I think that reads with an audience as well which is important sustain the event. There is human high performance as well as technology. 

 One guy sailing a big boat and kicking ass.  I am still shocked some folks thing the AC boats don't have to be seaworthy.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2014/03/11/video-spindrift-2-use-bike-power-route-du-rhum/

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10 hours ago, MidPack said:

Based on several of your posts, you're big on proof by exception aren't you? A few small exceptions aren't evidence of larger trends.

Are you honestly suggesting sailing hasn't declined substantially for the generations younger than Boomers, and as a result overall? There's tons of data, just one example of all of it in one place in the book below.

Yes, junior sailing (summer camp/babysitting for some parents) has continued and done well in many areas but it's also well documented that most juniors haven't gone on to become adult sailors or boat owners like Boomers did. Cost is more of an issue for sailing for all ages now, but it's only part of the problem for juniors.

What sports/activities are attracting the younger generation these days - skateboarding, snowboarding and various extreme sports - all of them are fast, not 6 knots. It may not make a difference in the end due to costs - but faster boats (foiling is one way), have a better chance of attracting next generations than ponderous old displacement monohulls. That's what younger generations have "stayed away from in droves."

And it's much too soon to know if affordable foilers will help. The foilers that have been produced have been relatively expensive so far, but hopefully more affordable, easier handling foilers will be in our near future. Dave & Steve Clark may have the first affordable production success.

 

saving%20sailing.jpg

No, I'm big on proof by checking out what's really happening, not "proof" by hype. No, I'm not denying that sailing in the USA has declined. The point is that there's no evidence that going extreme is the answer.

It's wrong to say that the sports/activities that are attracting the younger generation these days are "skateboarding, snowboarding and various extreme sports". To quote the most recent Outdoor Industry Association report on youth, people aged 18-24 aren't motivated to do sport primarily because it's extreme; their No 1 reason is that it's relaxing.  As the report says, "Running, (road) bicycling, fishing, camping and hiking are the most popular outdoor activities among youth". They are not extreme sports.  Road cycling, which is not extreme, is far more popular than "extreme" mountain biking or BMX. 

Yes, skateboarding comes next followed by RV camping, wildlife viewing and snowboarding. So 80% of the most popular sports are NOT "extreme."

Yep, skating is classified by many older people as "extreme", but that's exceptionalism - it's just looking at one aspect and ignoring that it's also simple, cheap and convenient. If we are going to draw lessons from skating why not take the lesson that popular sports are cheap and convenient? And if we're going to draw lessons from skating, can we ignore the fact that although it's been around for decades 80% of people give it up when they get older (like I did, and you probably did) and what that may mean? There's also 90% as many kids who do "boring old skiing" as doing "cool radical snowboarding", so it's not as if there's a huge difference between the two streams.

The same sort of results come from the Physical Activity Council's latest survey. The aspirational sports that young people want to do are the same ones that are already popular, NOT the extreme ones. The fastest growing sport is Stand Up Paddleboarding - convenient, cheap, and NOT extreme. People do it mainly for fitness and for the beauty of nature, not because of excitement (see the PAC's 2015 Paddle Sports study).

If you want to take issue with exceptionalism, why not look at your own American exceptionalism? You're talking as if you haven't seen what's happening to sailing in other countries (and as if I wasn't aware of the UFO and hadn't sailed "people's foilers'). The America's Cup is an international event and if we're going to look at its influence we have to take an international outlook.

Anyway, I've got to run - there's a bunch of under 25s who are coming sailing again with me this weekend.

 

 

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The AC boats are fantastic, but I really enjoyed sailors trimming sails,sail changes, spinnakers, jibes, etc... It looks like the majority want the same style of boats so the spin isn't coming back is it? What I don't understand is these tight restricted courses. They take so many options away for a second place boat to get back in the game. I'd like a hour long race with an open course. Would it be a bad thing if sailors decided how close to the rocks they'll go, or wiggling through the spectator fleet to break cover?

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Id like a hull about 90 feet long  all built buy the same company. Mast also the same built by one company. Keel and rudder up to design team. In another slight twist the front ten feet of the bow is missing. Each team will provide their own bow section with a maximum length of 10 feet. This would allow teams to provide their own design input onto the bow profile. This would hopefully allow the advantage of lowering costs but not having boats identical. I would also allow each yacht to carry two tonnes of water ballast. This water ballast can be pumped from one side of the boat to the other. Can you imagine the scene of 10 grinders going like crazy to pump water from one side to the other. 

Mono Hulls can be spectacular click on this link youtube video

 

Just imagine this in the cook straight during winter 

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On 6/29/2017 at 0:18 PM, bucc5062 said:

 Burling could push buttons on his expanded xbox control in flat water, but when I see him helming a sailboat fully powered up in tough conditions and winning, then I'll say he's a great sailor.

 

23 hours ago, IPLore said:

3. As we traditionalists are quick to point out, all that Burling did was push buttons on an expanded X Box. There is no evidence whatsoever that he is a great sailor. My grandson could probably beat him.  I hope that they pick a solid mutihull and put Dalts back on the helm where he deserves to be.

 

I just don't get this hatred of Burling. How many Olympic gold medals do you have? How many America's Cups?

Just tells me that he can sail at least two different types of boats better than I. And likely your grandson.

 

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One design boats are starting to look like a good idea. You get a base boat at a certain time before the LVC and you can develop certain aspects leading up to, and during the regattas. 

All made in New Zealand. 

 

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1 hour ago, Barnacle Bill said:

One design boats are starting to look like a good idea. You get a base boat at a certain time before the LVC and you can develop certain aspects leading up to, and during the regattas. 

All made in New Zealand. 

 

Not only would this produce a lot of work for Kiwi's it would have several other advantages. The building process could ensure the hulls are extra strong and can handle rough water. The mast can be built extra strong to ensure ability to handle strong winds. Mast design was an expensive item for syndicates, but this item can be removed. I would also make all keel bulbs to be made of steel not lead. Each syndicate would be allowed to build five differents bulbs of varying weight and profile.  The use of dagger boards and rudders is up to each syndicate. Each team would only be able to build 3 pairs of dagger boards. They would also be able to have 2 sets of rudders which can be interchanged.  The width of dagger boards, rudders and keel would be set to a cautious value to ensure durability and strength.  Each syndicate would be allowed 2 keels. So for every race the syndicate could change keel, bulb, dagger boards and rudders. All syndicates would have to use standard sails built by the same company, once again the sails will be build with longevity and stength in mind. Each syndicate can have a maximum of 12 sails. 

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That's all cool for some other regatta, but I thought this was Am Cup?

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

That's all cool for some other regatta, but I thought this was Am Cup?

I see your point but the last Americas cup was very similar in many ways. Also allowing unrestricted design envelope with 100 foot yachts would be so expensive. Even with all these restriction you going to need 50 to 100 million. Id also ban the use of any electronics except one radio which is next to the tv camera and is in full view. Mechanical analogue instruments can do just fine. 

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3 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I see your point but the last Americas cup was very similar in many ways. Also allowing unrestricted design envelope with 100 foot yachts would be so expensive. Even with all these restriction you going to need 50 to 100 million. 

The AC will never be cheap. It's a 3 or 4 year campaign and the cost to design/build a boat is but one element of the overall campaign budget.

But OD has no place in AC competition, IMO.

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

That's all cool for some other regatta, but I thought this was Am Cup?

+1

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9 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

The AC will never be cheap. It's a 3 or 4 year campaign and the cost to design/build a boat is but one element of the overall campaign budget.

But OD has no place in AC competition, IMO.

Out of interest,  did you dislike the OD element in the last Cup and do you think the Kiwi public would support a mega bucks campaign.  I believe that this campaign we only spent 50 million US dollars. 

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Just now, mako23 said:

Out of interest,  did you dislike the OD element in the last Cup and do you think the Kiwi public would support a mega bucks campaign.  

Well, I have mixed feelings about it.

Not surprisingly (in hindsight) the OD elements in AC35 worked in ETNZ's favour, given the very limited budget resources they had. RC's proto worked against OTUSA big time in the end.

But the AC has NEVER been about building the number of challengers and the sailing audience, for me. Rather, it's a design/sailing competition between international YC's. The rest I'm happy to see left out.

Do I think the Kiwi public would support a mega bucks defence? Hell yes. 

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On 6/28/2017 at 6:40 PM, KoW said:

I wouldn't expect a cost saving for soft sails at all really - but they would bring back crew work.

Call me old-fashioned, but I'd rather see the crew setting and taking in sails, than a dude with a playstation controller making imperceptible wing adjustments.

I couldnt agree more

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7 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Well, I have mixed feelings about it.

Not surprisingly (in hindsight) the OD elements in AC35 worked in ETNZ's favour, given the very limited budget resources they had. RC's proto worked against OTUSA big time in the end.

But the AC has NEVER been about building the number of challengers and the sailing audience, for me. Rather, it's a design/sailing competition between international YC's. The rest I'm happy to see left out.

Do I think the Kiwi public would support a mega bucks defence? Hell yes. 

I admire your enthusiasm Popeye, but I'm not as sure as you, about the public willingness to spend mega bucks. The government has already said count us out and the Auckland council has said similar. With Auckland's housing crisis and associated homelessness problems any government would have to be resilient to public criticism to pony up 30 million. Our present prime minister I see no chance of doing this. We will also be with out the Italian money this time(If rumors are true, close to 50% of the budget).  If Team New Zealand wants any chance to be competitive it will have to be a OD in some elements.  Id love to go back to the days of Michael Fay and mega buck budgets. Sadly those days are gone. If you have any extra ideas were the funding can come from Popeye Id love to hear it.  

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2 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I admire your enthusiasm Popeye, but I'm not as sure as you, about the public willingness to spend mega bucks. The government has already said count us out and the Auckland council has said similar. With Auckland's housing crisis and associated homelessness problems any government would have to be resilient to public criticism to pony up 30 million. Our present prime minister I see no chance of doing this. We will also be with out the Italian money this time(If rumors are true, close to 50% of the budget).  If Team New Zealand wants any chance to be competitive it will have to be a OD in some elements.  Id love to go back to the days of Michael Fay and mega buck budgets. Sadly those days are gone. If you have any extra ideas were the funding can come from Popeye Id love to hear it.  

The decisions about Government funding will not be made prior to Election 2017 (23 September). Some seeding money may well be handed out prior to that of course. There's no way the present Government will give the fucking socialist an opportunity to whip up anti-ETNZ sentiment like they did after the AC34 loss again.

I'm confident the Auckland "housing crisis" as you call it is well on the way to self-correction. If you're thinking of selling, do it now! Aunty Helen has given her blessing and National have always been able to do the numbers.

Meantime, let's see how GD's new proto shapes up and the interested parties respond. 

 

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I think the potential benefit to the NZ marine industry is a great argument for keeping a level of one design for the next cycle - ETNZ/RNZYS can produce a protocol that is fair to Challengers as far as the competition goes, but we should use Defender's advantage to the max in the Class spec. Maybe one of the first things is to sit down with all the major NZ suppliers and work out how to maximise the commercial benefits from a centrally-manufactured OD package that teams can purchase (to keep costs down!), and which they can take away and add their own technology to in the non-OD areas.

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36 minutes ago, weta27 said:

I think the potential benefit to the NZ marine industry is a great argument for keeping a level of one design for the next cycle - ETNZ/RNZYS can produce a protocol that is fair to Challengers as far as the competition goes, but we should use Defender's advantage to the max in the Class spec. Maybe one of the first things is to sit down with all the major NZ suppliers and work out how to maximise the commercial benefits from a centrally-manufactured OD package that teams can purchase (to keep costs down!), and which they can take away and add their own technology to in the non-OD areas.

Is it the Cup holders responsibility to build the local marine industry? I think not.

The local marine industry will benefit from the Cup holders success, for sure - which is as it should be. But it's up to the Government to encourage and support commerce.

ETNZ's responsibility is custodian of the Cup. And to accept a Challenge and facilitate fair play. And to Defend successfully.

If OD supports that endeavour, fair enough. But recent history has demonstrated otherwise, IMO.

 

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44 minutes ago, weta27 said:

I think the potential benefit to the NZ marine industry is a great argument for keeping a level of one design for the next cycle - ETNZ/RNZYS can produce a protocol that is fair to Challengers as far as the competition goes, but we should use Defender's advantage to the max in the Class spec. Maybe one of the first things is to sit down with all the major NZ suppliers and work out how to maximise the commercial benefits from a centrally-manufactured OD package that teams can purchase (to keep costs down!), and which they can take away and add their own technology to in the non-OD areas.

well, that, and ... work out what boat will PB, GA and BT, and other top NZ apparent wind sailors, be able to sail better than anyone else.

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46 minutes ago, weta27 said:

I think the potential benefit to the NZ marine industry is a great argument for keeping a level of one design for the next cycle - ETNZ/RNZYS can produce a protocol that is fair to Challengers as far as the competition goes, but we should use Defender's advantage to the max in the Class spec. Maybe one of the first things is to sit down with all the major NZ suppliers and work out how to maximise the commercial benefits from a centrally-manufactured OD package that teams can purchase (to keep costs down!), and which they can take away and add their own technology to in the non-OD areas.

Now that Cookson's have closed we only have Core to build hi-tech boats and they are not builders of mono hulls.

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3 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

Now that Cookson's have closed we only have Core to build hi-tech boats and they are not builders of mono hulls.

Are the building techniques different for monos? No, they are not. You just need a bigger oven, surely?

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6 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Are the building techniques different for monos? No, they are not. You just need a bigger oven, surely?

Core would have to invest in more space and equipment if they were to expand into monos .. Cookson's were world leaders in hi-tech monos up to a 100 feet.

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Just now, Terry Hollis said:

Core would have to invest in more space and equipment if they were to expand into monos .. Cookson's were world leaders in hi-tech monos up to a 100 feet.

And Southern Spars?

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2 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

And Southern Spars?

Southern Spars are world leaders in the spar business but the nearest they got to building a boat was the two hulls for ETNZ's AC50 .. the beams came off the AC45t and the moulds were made by others.

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16 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

Southern Spars are world leaders in the spar business but the nearest they got to building a boat was the two hulls for ETNZ's AC50 .. the beams came off the AC45t and the moulds were made by others.

And so it's all good news all around. I can't see any problems what-so-ever on the boatbuilding front - whether mono or multi.

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58 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

 

Is Cookson's boats totally gone. There is a website for the company, or is that the shell of the old company. 

 

This herald article indicates that they still exist but moving to other premises ??? Herald Article

If Cookson's have truly gone that is a problem, I hope the 100 foot Kiln is still in NZ

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An article from the New Zealand Herald about our wonderful politicians heading for the high ground. Gee its been less than a week..... Herald Website Link

One thing we don't like in this country is winners 

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18 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Is Cookson's boats totally gone. There is a website for the company, or is that the shell of the old company. 

 

This herald article indicates that they still exist but moving to other premises ??? Herald Article

If Cookson's have truly gone that is a problem, I hope the 100 foot Kiln is still in NZ

No. They've not gone. Just sacked 40 workers. They've got ongoing projects, but nothing the scale of ETNZ's AC50's at the moment. 

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Other. Box rule and let them have at it. Foiling cats weren't planned for SF and look what's happened. Who knows what monstrosity will emerge to entertain us. 

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11 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

No. They've not gone. Just sacked 40 workers. They've got ongoing projects, but nothing the scale of ETNZ's AC50's at the moment. 

I thought it was southern spars who just let 40 workers go...Herald website Link

Me think that this sector of the industry is a tad sick. However I do agree that Team NZ are not the annotated saviors of the marine industry. 

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13 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I thought it was southern spars who just let 40 workers go...Herald website Link

Me think that this sector of the industry is a tad sick. However I do agree that Team NZ are not the annotated saviors of the marine industry. 

Ah. Yeah. Sorry, my bad. Fucked up there. It was Southern Spars, as you say. 

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

Ah. Yeah. Sorry, my bad. Fucked up there. It was Southern Spars, as you say. 

No worries it happens to all of us

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Fantasies regarding huge monohulls. What is wrong with you silly and ancient minded wankers? You already have an excellent platform in the AC50. Why not retain it? And it could only be improved upon by going to a foiling trimaran. That's a semi-joke for you. Not to be taken seriously. On the other hand, why not have both types competing? There is no way the AC is going back to the dark ages of monohulls. Not after the "cat" has leapt from the bag. This is the high end of yachting development. There is no way that there will be return to soft sails either. You think Glen Ashby,after learning all his refined wing control would want that. Looking even further forward, terrifying as it may be for you retrograde thinkers, I can see the platform being reduced even further (see recent Australian minimal trimaran foiler development).

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

Is Cookson's boats totally gone. There is a website for the company, or is that the shell of the old company. 

 

This herald article indicates that they still exist but moving to other premises ??? Herald Article

If Cookson's have truly gone that is a problem, I hope the 100 foot Kiln is still in NZ

This news item was published four months ago .. since then Cookson's have one staff (Caretaker) and Mick Cookson is enjoying retirement.

http://www.yachtingworld.com/microsites/supersail-world/supersail-news/top-builder-cookson-under-threat-15690

 

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4 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

This news item was published four months ago .. since then Cookson's have one staff (Caretaker) and Mick Cookson is enjoying retirement.

http://www.yachtingworld.com/microsites/supersail-world/supersail-news/top-builder-cookson-under-threat-15690

 

Thanks Terry, just one point is that this article was eight years ago. Maybe they have recovered since then. There website does seem to indicate that they are a going concern at the moment. However all be said you might be correct

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the more i think about it the more i struggle with mono hulls, i hope that see reason.  i think i would actually be embarrassment to get it really wrong.  dam Luna rossa and their rescue money.  

 

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12 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Thanks Terry, just one point is that this article was eight years ago. Maybe they have recovered since then. There website does seem to indicate that they are a going concern at the moment. However all be said you might be correct

Yes it is an old article but the fact remains that Cookson's are closed.

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any hull that does not require an upper wind-speed limit :rolleyes:

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One design boats are starting to look like a good idea.

Great for Core as long as holder wants to build them there.

Shit for the AC & I'm against it for that reason.

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Dragon, 6s,12s, Js, etc; any rig that can sail in all but very high pressures, as impied below.

3 hours ago, Mid said:

any hull that does not require an upper wind-speed limit :rolleyes:

 

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Dragons :-)

But then Coutts would win again 

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Why all this talk about a 1-design hull? That was one of the worst things about the last cup. No matter the boat and design rule it has to go back to an individually designed and built platform. Even if they end-up in the same corner of the rule there has to be some creativity beyond a set of foils.

It is not an issue about money, they all spent a ton even with less crew and no design costs for a platform, etc. The spent it on foil and systems design non-stop during the entire campaign. The 'cost saving' argument is moot, teams will spend all they can get, maybe reduce the number of designers, engineers, and computer simulation and then you will see some savings.

NASCAR tried this with the new car design, having 1-chassis that could be used on all tracks, short, speedway, or road course. The result? They all build new cars like before and sometimes set for the type of track like before. They are spending money at higher rates than ever, requiring multiple sponsors to get the needed funding. And where are they spending a bunch of it? Designers, engineers, computer simulators, shaker rigs. The driver and crew are a small part of it.

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29 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

Why all this talk about a 1-design hull? That was one of the worst things about the last cup. No matter the boat and design rule it has to go back to an individually designed and built platform. Even if they end-up in the same corner of the rule there has to be some creativity beyond a set of foils.

It is not an issue about money, they all spent a ton even with less crew and no design costs for a platform, etc. The spent it on foil and systems design non-stop during the entire campaign. The 'cost saving' argument is moot, teams will spend all they can get, maybe reduce the number of designers, engineers, and computer simulation and then you will see some savings.

NASCAR tried this with the new car design, having 1-chassis that could be used on all tracks, short, speedway, or road course. The result? They all build new cars like before and sometimes set for the type of track like before. They are spending money at higher rates than ever, requiring multiple sponsors to get the needed funding. And where are they spending a bunch of it? Designers, engineers, computer simulators, shaker rigs. The driver and crew are a small part of it.

One design sailing competition works, that's why!

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1 minute ago, BobBill said:

One design sailing competition works, that's why!

Until this time one design was not even considered, it was touted as a money saving ploy. The AC is part 1 a design game. Remove that and what have you got?

J A R

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Same turnip truck race, different rules...Curious, I always thought the 12s were one-design...

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9 minutes ago, BobBill said:

Same turnip truck race, different rules...Curious, I always thought the 12s were one-design...

There has never been an AC raced in OD boats. The closest are box or formula designs like the J class, IACC, etc. 12m are just a smaller formula.  

 

I keep putting this here, but the boat itself has fuck all to do with the cost of an AC campaign. The cost is all in the crew. AC sailors are the highest paid in the world by a fair margin, and every additional crew slot adds a lot to the final cost. 

Even for a lot budget program like ETNZ the build cost of the boat is less than 10% the operational budget. 

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Okie-dokie...have not a clue of costs, but people need to swill. Am guessing one could do quite well sailing say a Dragon or 6 with locals and gratis to boot! Bet there are more than a few swabs better than we have seen. Hype does not make right, to me. Do it in Dragons.

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28 minutes ago, BobBill said:

Same turnip truck race, different rules...Curious, I always thought the 12s were one-design...

Then how would you get AII with a wing keel in '83? Just look at the evolution of the boats and you would see that. It has never been a 1-design regatta except for this one. All others were an open design under the DoG limitations until they agreed to use the J & then 12m class design formula's for the boat type of choice.

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5 minutes ago, BobBill said:

Okie-dokie...have not a clue of costs, but people need to swill. Am guessing one could do quite well sailing say a Dragon or 6 with locals and gratis to boot! Bet there are more than a few swabs better than we have seen. Hype does not make right, to me. Do it in Dragons.

You need to study the AC more, there is this 44' minimum w/l item in the deed. Only way to change it is you apply to the NYSC for a change, as was done in 1956.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deed_of_Gift_of_the_America's_Cup

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Deed_of_Gift

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Like I noted in past, I don't have a clue. Just figured the rules, sort of set the limits, maybe not "strict" OD but maybe that is an ideal anyway. C'est le vie. Not a biggie, really. Dragons.

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1 minute ago, ~HHN92~ said:

You need to study the AC more, there is this 44' minimum w/l item in the deed. Only way to change it is you apply to the NYSC for a change, as was done in 1956.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deed_of_Gift_of_the_America's_Cup

Yea, I kinda recall that. Thanks, you joogged me melon with that bit o jetsam... merci!

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7 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

Then how would you get AII with a wing keel in '83? Just look at the evolution of the boats and you would see that. It has never been a 1-design regatta except for this one. All others were an open design under the DoG limitations until they agreed to use the J & then 12m class design formula's for the boat type of choice.

I am not sure the AC50's can really be thought about as a OD either. Sure the hulls were all the same, but their design was an insignificant part of the sailing characteristics. The foil design was dictated by a box rule, and they were the important bits. 

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22 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

You need to study the AC more, there is this 44' minimum w/l item in the deed. Only way to change it is you apply to the NYSC for a change, as was done in 1956.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deed_of_Gift_of_the_America's_Cup

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Deed_of_Gift

Aye mate! The fog slowly lifts. (I always fancied the wing-ed wicked keel was just another means of rounding up a rule, as happens in OD rules, incidentally.)

I read that script long ago and forgot most of it...and the legal stuff that made the NYYC or NYSC rule. So what if they are ignored? Not so sure that rule remains viable. But dig your point. Indeed, either way, apply...do Dragons...or Solings or 4ksbs, all the same to moi at this point.

Fun, the speculating, isn't it? Sailing is more fun though, rain or shine!

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The only bit of one-design I'm comfortable with is around structures for safety reasons since the Artemis (Juan) failure.

But requiring a physical strength test to a level much higher than a practical racing load should deal to that.

 

Quote

Sure the hulls were all the same, but their design was an insignificant part of the sailing characteristics.

Which is why they didn't need to be one-design.

Could have at least allowed teams to design the bows so there was some obvious visual difference between the boats.

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