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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
MidPack

Poll: Next AC Boat

Next AC Boat?   633 members have voted

  1. 1. Next AC Boat?

    • Foiling cat very similar to AC35 boats
      189
    • Another foiling multihull
      127
    • Displacement monohull
      139
    • Foiling monohull
      160
    • Other
      18

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

933 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I agree, it was only disgraceful if it was done on purpose, but we don't know.

What was disgraceful was Tucker asking the boys to hold up the LV bags for a photo opp and the Cup presentation. Fucking good on them for giving them the biff, IMO.

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Multihulls in these past two AC's have provided far better racing. If you love pure Match Racing instead of a Deign competition then notice the direction even the WMRT has taken. Displacement has its place but that's just not where the best racing has been aiming at for the past decade already. 

Is it the 1972- era Chevelle you are trying to recreate? Have you test-driven a 2018 model Impala or Corvette yet? You may be shocked at how damn nice they are, both are affordable and the 45+ year technology leap, just like in boat designs, has been incredible in that space. Have driven service loaners of both recently, you need to at least taste something far better-new too instead of being stuck 5 decades deep into a nostalgic past.

If you are going to drag my car into this you could at least get the correct year. And I will excuse your dependence on computer gadgetry that is required to make and control horsepower these days. Same way I did not like the guys who could not make horsepower so they had to go buy the best nitrous system they could find to have an edge. Myself and many others built their own motors, selecting the parts and pieces to develop the best package, the correct rpm range, gearing and tires to make a car go fast. Buying HP instead of making it yourself was more respected. Especially when you still beat them.

While the HP and performance of a current Vette or Camaro may be fun it is not the same. The 'technology' you hype is not all that cutting edge, as shown by a couple of cars out there, the rating on some of these combos is not that high at all. With all that is known about making HP these days it is only a matter of how high they want to turn the wick. A NASCAR motor is making close to 900-1000 hp these days without all the computer controls, superchargers, turbo's, etc., even before they went to injection. So a 400-600 rating is not all that big. Much of this is due to limitations of what the regulations will allow to be sold to the public. I was making 500 hp out of 396 back in the late 70's with stock oval port heads, a bit of cam, and an aluminum intake with a 750 Holley on it. An LS6 Chevelle was rated at 450 hp but most everybody knows it was over 500, and the ZL1 427's in the Vette's were the same way. That was almost 50 years ago.

So, are we going to make sailing HP using the same gadgetry of the modern day Vette, or go with it being made the old fashioned way with a similar HP rating? What is more popular, Indy Cars with all their gadgetry, or a Cup car that is more raw HP? You know the answer.

And the multihulls in the past 2 AC's providing far better racing? The LV in SF was better racing? I would put the LR vs America One LV finals against any of this, Courageous vs Intrepid in '74, Liberty vs Courageous in '83, all racing where it took a lot of races with leads trading back and forth over what we have seen in the last 4 years. Sure there were some exciting moments in the last couple of series but nothing that had a duration where you did not know who was going to pull it out in the end.

So what would I rather have, a foiling gadget boat that goes zip-zip-zip around a boxed-in padded cell or a TP52 style box rule boat that can sail off-shore or in-shore, and in a variety of wind ranges that provides close, action packed excitement? As slow as the old Catalina 37's are there is more exciting racing in one race than you saw in the last AC match.

You can have the zip-zip-zip gadgets...

edit: since they are playing Smokey and the Bandit on Sundance tonight - "do you know what the letters 'FO' mean?"

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58 minutes ago, pacice said:

Speed does play a part in adding excitement to the event. 

Bulldozer racing is fun for the people involved, but it's not something I could get excited over. 

 

On the other hand.....

Exhibit A - the world's highest-rating and most-watched annual sporting event. 11.3 knots average speed in the highest-rating portion. 400,000 live spectators within 20km. 1.5 billion TV spectators, making it the world's highest-rating annual sporting event. Where the pros use equipment that you can buy at your local shop, and which goes 25% slower than the fastest kit. 

Exhibit B -  Third highest ratings out of Olympic sports, behind gymnastics and track and field. Five or six knots top speed. A sport in which the legends use no kit, and can be beaten by teenage girls using equipment that many people use at the beach (swim fins).

end_tour_climbs_21.jpg

images.jpg

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35 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

What was disgraceful was Tucker asking the boys to hold up the LV bags for a photo opp and the Cup presentation. Fucking good on them for giving them the biff, IMO.

With the money and implication  LV had in the history of the Cup I find this comment shameful.

Will you finger Emirates when they stop sending money to ETNZ ?

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16 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

With the money and implication  LV had in the history of the Cup I find this comment shameful.

Will you finger Emirates when they stop sending money to ETNZ ?

Yeah I'm not with you on this one SBD. They paid shit loads to be the naming sponsors so I think they are entitled to expect some cooperation from all the teams. 

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39 minutes ago, The Jay said:

On the other hand.....

Exhibit A - the world's highest-rating and most-watched annual sporting event. 11.3 knots average speed in the highest-rating portion. 400,000 live spectators within 20km. 1.5 billion TV spectators, making it the world's highest-rating annual sporting event. Where the pros use equipment that you can buy at your local shop, and which goes 25% slower than the fastest kit. 

Exhibit B -  Third highest ratings out of Olympic sports, behind gymnastics and track and field. Five or six knots top speed. A sport in which the legends use no kit, and can be beaten by teenage girls using equipment that many people use at the beach (swim fins).

end_tour_climbs_21.jpg

images.jpg

I'm pretty sure Olympic curling had better ratings than AC35. Objective speed is boring unless it creates competitive anxiety. 

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13 hours ago, MidPack said:

Is it really that simple? Yes it appears LR has a lot of influence, but they have to realize it's important that 1) other teams are interested and enter, and 2) the event has to attempt pay for itself (on paper at least). The America's Cup is supposed to be a design contest for its time in large part (along with sailing, building, fundraising, etc.) - they can't go back to actual leadmines, no way. 

The most relevant issue is that Patrizio Bertelli is quite an old man. Why would he care about the long term well being of the americas cup. He wants to win and he needs to win this cycle. So he will select a boat that maximises his chances of winning. He spent a lot of money to have this right and he will use to maximum effect. He might select monohulls he might select Cats, but whatever selected will maximise his design talent he has collected. To be honest non of what ive said is proven fact. However its based on articles ive read online stating the link between Luna Rossa and ETNZ. 

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36 minutes ago, mako23 said:

The most relevant issue is that Patrizio Bertelli is quite an old man. Why would he care about the long term well being of the americas cup.

Old people care about legacies, yo.

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3 hours ago, KoW said:

I'm beginning to think we need another poll.... This time the question should be "Which do you prefer..."

  • watching 4 men going hard out on exer-cycles with 2 guys playing playstation?
  • watching 20 sailors in blazers doing nothing on the rail of a monohull ponderously beating slowly to windward?

My point being, that it is very easy to selectively dismiss both cats and monohulls if you are narrow-minded enough and only seize on the negatives of your least preferred option.

There really is no "right" answer here... The rabid foiling, no-racing, no-sailing, tech-fest brigade have very valid points about the risk of losing some of the validity and glamour that has been engendered by the racing being all about the fastest yachts on water, whilst the rabid monohull exponents also have valid points that what we are watching now is closer to "e-sports" (shudder) and endurance-sports than actual sailing, and may as well just be a computer programming contest between CFD engineers.

I can totally imagine a world where monohull racing (foiling or otherwise) is fast and exciting. I can also imagine a world where cat racing (foiling or otherwise) could not require continuous power input, a sail-by-playstation controller and a very limited range of weather conditions in which the event can be staged.

What I fear is: 

  • a rule being rushed through and as a consequence containing loopholes that allows one team to get a massive jump on other competitors by exploiting badly worded legalese rather than actually doing anything clever.
  • a rule that sees the boats require engine power to be sailed
  • any rule that doesn't need more than a couple of guys on the boat
  • a rule that creates boats where sailing skills and teamwork are reduced in importance
  • any class that means sailors need to be unnecessarily exposed to risk of injury or death
  • a rule that kills media interest in the cup
  • a new class rule that discourages other teams from participating
  • a class rule that deliberately goes out of its way to give the defenders a big advantage
  • a new class rule that prevents the event being held in a wide variety of sailing locations and conditions

Brilliant

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36 minutes ago, SENDITBOYS said:

Old people care about legacies, yo.

Yes I agree but the legacy he wants to create is winning the cup. 

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6 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

 If you love pure Match Racing instead of a Deign competition then notice the direction even the WMRT has taken.

Oh FFS. WMRT is a dying event. It could not meet its commercial objectives in monohulls and it isn't meeting them in G32s either.

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11 hours ago, rgeek said:

What it looks like is that people don't like change

AC50s are the status quo. The irony of simultaneously arguing for rule stability and attacking those who don't agree with you as "people (who) don't like change" seems to be lost on you.

 

 

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4 hours ago, pacice said:

I am having trouble working out how foiling mono's would work in match racing.

Currently there a a very small number of foiling, or foil assisted monohulls sailing. And from what I see, they can only benefit from their foils while reaching, in a reasonable wind - 15 knots or more. How would they perform on a light wind windward/leeward racecourse.

The Quant 23, designed by GD's favorite designer (not), has a hull shape as close to a multihull as you can get in a single.scow style hull. And the foils are long and would interfere with the rig when retracted. On a 18m hull, the foils would need to be massive to work, and would take a lot of work to manage pre-start and during tacks and gybes.

Hydrofoiling monos could be competitve with AC50's: long light skiff hull with pointy bow for pitch-pole resistance.  Wing, long trimaran type cross beam with hydrofoils on ends.  Or could have a half length cross beam that slides side to side to make the boat narrower.  Could put lateral resistance on daggerboards on the hull with the outrigger hydrofoils being only for lift.

A good compromise for those that insist on monohulls, and could permanently lift the performance of sailing monohulls - on a platform that can be trailer able and cheaply berthed at a marina.

 

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Jay, you have too many problems for us to rectify. And what is all this horse defecation about amateurs using backward technology? Nothing wrong with tensioned ply or foam/ glass and carbon in boat building for those wanting an affordable priced boat ... that still remains reasonably light in comparison to say one constructed in nomex/carbon prepregs. You sound like a precious snob.

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I wasn't talking about amateur boatbuilding. I was talking about the other stuff you became well known for years ago - an art form in which you used technology that had been "outmoded" decades before by colour and movies. You made great art by working within the limited technology, so why do you abuse anyone who values other things created within limited technology?  

Lots of great objects are created with limited technology - not just art but boats and other racing kit. The best "grand prix" boats of Logan, Bailey, Farr and Davidson were all restricted in design and slower than multis of their day, but you love or respect those boats. A Mach 2 Moth is slower than a foiling kite, but no one slings shit at them for it. A Moto GP bike is limited by technology and is slower than a F1 car, but no one says cars should be in Moto GP races.

If you value art created with limited technology and you value other boats  and vehicles created with limited technology then why do you sling shit at anyone who values AC boats with limits on technology?  Oh, and given your years of abusing other posters, you're the last person who has the right to say that other people have problems if they snap at you. 

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3 hours ago, mako23 said:

.........To be honest non of what ive said is proven fact.

However its based on articles ive read online stating the link between Luna Rossa and ETNZ. 

hmmmm.

IOW, taeks its rytful plaiss alongsyd Lunar landingz a scam, WTC an insyd job, OJ innosent, trump the new messiya ....  all well attested onlyn.

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

AC50s are the status quo. The irony of simultaneously arguing for rule stability and attacking those who don't agree with you as "people (who) don't like change" seems to be lost on you.

 

 

Personally I'm not arguing for the AC50.

I haven't be critical on the number of teams this time round. Purely in terms of numbers and in historical context I think they did a not good, not bad job. The real challenge in getting to a normal number of challengers was a difference in the requirements of the challengers that they where unable (or unwilling or actively shit stirred) to mediate. The main issue there being ACEAs lack of independence and agenda that didn't fit with some.

For me? Technical innovation bla bla, the AC has always been about the fastest boats around an inshore course. When waterline length ruled that meant the longest. I 100% backed the LR position on the boats last time and still think the AC50 is not in keeping with that tradition. Tend to agree it's more of a modern 12m.

Moving on from here. Most importantly I'd like the boats to be safe. Then I'd like to see less stored power as I don't think the teams will be able to help them selves in terms of direct drive, and that is not sailing. But if they go the full hog and boil the crew down to a helm, sail trimmer, foil trimmer and tactician/float to make them safe so be it. I'd rather see something up around the mid 70s in keeping with the historic size of AC yachts. Would I compromise on stored power for size? May be. 4 sailors duking it out in AC72s with battery power and solar out on the Gulf? Yeh, I'd probably lap it up if I'm honest.

But really I think it has to be what ever combination of safe and low stored power is the fastest round the race track is all that counts. Forget about how many hulls it has, forget about picking a design because it requires certain boat handling skills, forget about picking a design because it produces racing where 2 boats flap their sails next to each other for 10 minutes and the race is over before it started.

What track? What ever track the RNZYC uses for it's annual regatta will do me.

...

But what I am saying is that, if you are looking for a large number of teams, then the way to get that is through stability of the design and allowing more boats to be built until there are reasonably competitive cast off boats available on the cheep. It's not rocket science, it's just classic fleet building.

Criticising AC35 for a lack of numbers and then demanding a wholesale design change is bullshit. Taking money off the NZ government, which is clearly going to be based on generating inward investment and tourism, and then making a wholesale design change is bullshit. Unless you can sign up a load of teams for your new concept by dumbing down the boat so that it's already a well known and just big I suppose ... nah, it's still not going to be faster than a smaller foiling low stored power version on an AC50 ... and AC R&D budgets are going to make massive speed differences in anything new.

Criticising AC35 for a lack of traditional match racing and boat handling and then voting for a foiling monohull is bullshit. Or a big tri.

Criticism of the current generation of AC50s in terms of the inevitable speed differences between boats in early stage refinement and the race ending penalty for any boat handling I agree with. You can go two ways with that I guess. Big heavy monoslugs that just keep rolling even when the crew fucks up, basically go back in time to the IACC, or stick reasonably close to the AC50 and remove elements of the rule that prove to make boathandling too challenging ... there's a series of massive Catch 22s for you.

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Jay, but, but I have never slung poo at boat building technology..Am I slinging defecation at what others are using in AC technology? No, no, never, never. The concern is the possibility of taking a backward step from the highest design evolution AC cats to tired old monohull design. If they come up with an unballasted monohull with modern foils, sort of a recreation of the turn of last Century US lake scows, well, that's fine with me and probably many other posters here too.

 

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11 minutes ago, snaerk said:

hmmmm.

IOW, taeks its rytful plaiss alongsyd Lunar landingz a scam, WTC an insyd job, OJ innosent, trump the new messiya ....  all well attested onlyn.

Yachting world is were I read the article

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28 minutes ago, rgeek said:

But what I am saying is that, if you are looking for a large number of teams, then the way to get that is through stability of the design and allowing more boats to be built until there are reasonably competitive cast off boats available on the cheep. It's not rocket science, it's just classic fleet building.

So it appears to me you are in effect arguing for the AC50.

Be that as it may, I don't think "classic fleet building" works in the AC. In the IACC era you did not very much see teams buying previous generation boats. Maybe as training boats but not much else. Same goes for the VOR, this "green" sport generates single-event boats that are then unusable because you can either raise the money for a new boat or you can't raise the money to compete at all.

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6 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

If you are going to drag my car into this you could at least get the correct year. And I will excuse your dependence on computer gadgetry that is required to make and control horsepower these days. Same way I did not like the guys who could not make horsepower so they had to go buy the best nitrous system they could find to have an edge. Myself and many others built their own motors, selecting the parts and pieces to develop the best package, the correct rpm range, gearing and tires to make a car go fast. Buying HP instead of making it yourself was more respected. Especially when you still beat them.

While the HP and performance of a current Vette or Camaro may be fun it is not the same. The 'technology' you hype is not all that cutting edge, as shown by a couple of cars out there, the rating on some of these combos is not that high at all. With all that is known about making HP these days it is only a matter of how high they want to turn the wick. A NASCAR motor is making close to 900-1000 hp these days without all the computer controls, superchargers, turbo's, etc., even before they went to injection. So a 400-600 rating is not all that big. Much of this is due to limitations of what the regulations will allow to be sold to the public. I was making 500 hp out of 396 back in the late 70's with stock oval port heads, a bit of cam, and an aluminum intake with a 750 Holley on it. An LS6 Chevelle was rated at 450 hp but most everybody knows it was over 500, and the ZL1 427's in the Vette's were the same way. That was almost 50 years ago.

So, are we going to make sailing HP using the same gadgetry of the modern day Vette, or go with it being made the old fashioned way with a similar HP rating? What is more popular, Indy Cars with all their gadgetry, or a Cup car that is more raw HP? You know the answer.

And the multihulls in the past 2 AC's providing far better racing? The LV in SF was better racing? I would put the LR vs America One LV finals against any of this, Courageous vs Intrepid in '74, Liberty vs Courageous in '83, all racing where it took a lot of races with leads trading back and forth over what we have seen in the last 4 years. Sure there were some exciting moments in the last couple of series but nothing that had a duration where you did not know who was going to pull it out in the end.

So what would I rather have, a foiling gadget boat that goes zip-zip-zip around a boxed-in padded cell or a TP52 style box rule boat that can sail off-shore or in-shore, and in a variety of wind ranges that provides close, action packed excitement? As slow as the old Catalina 37's are there is more exciting racing in one race than you saw in the last AC match.

You can have the zip-zip-zip gadgets...

edit: since they are playing Smokey and the Bandit on Sundance tonight - "do you know what the letters 'FO' mean?"

Lol. I enjoyed that. 

Modern American cars are a total fucking joke. I'd rather walk than be seen in one. What happened to that once great country? 

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15 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

So it appears to me you are in effect arguing for the AC50.

Be that as it may, I don't think "classic fleet building" works in the AC. In the IACC era you did not very much see teams buying previous generation boats. Maybe as training boats but not much else. Same goes for the VOR, this "green" sport generates single-event boats that are then unusable because you can either raise the money for a new boat or you can't raise the money to compete at all.

If I was bothered about the number of teams I'd be arguing for the ac50 sure. But I've also suggested that letting teams enter more than one boat may be a way to deliver that.

The 12s and IACC both had a similar patern to the one we staring out on now. Only the keenest teams when the designs was new and then more joining as time went on. The IACC did marginally better to start off with. The 12s less so until LV got involved.

The cycle seems to start off with new build teams, move on to teams entering by buying up excess boats to train with and get started. Then just before the new build teams get board with the current design you get a big AC with a whole mix of teams including some sailing old boats. The other thing that drives numbers is a none US defence.

Another alternative would be to go back to j class and 12m thinking and just pick what ever is fastest already out there, like the maxi 72s.

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58 minutes ago, Groucho Marx said:

Jay, but, but I have never slung poo at boat building technology..Am I slinging defecation at what others are using in AC technology? No, no, never, never. The concern is the possibility of taking a backward step from the highest design evolution AC cats to tired old monohull design. If they come up with an unballasted monohull with modern foils, sort of a recreation of the turn of last Century US lake scows, well, that's fine with me and probably many other posters here too.

 

The point is that you DO sling poo at limit technology in boatbuilding, despite your own success in using limited technology in another field. If you could create great stuff with limited technology, why abuse great stuff other people do with limited technology in another field?

A ballasted monohull in 2020 would be no more backwards than Ariki was "backwards" in 1904 - she was slower than an old Herreshoff cat or a fin keeler. Infidel was not "backwards" in 1962 because a big CSK could have beaten her. Ceramco was not "backwards" in 1980 because a Newick tri would have kicked her ass.  A foiling Moth is not "backwards" because a foiling kite is a newer design beats it.

They are just different types of sporting gear and saying that one is "backwards" is like saying that a cricket bat is "backwards" compared to a jai alai cesta just because it hits the ball slower. And once we bring in other factors there's a damn good case to be made for a conventional mono.

I'm actually cool with foiling cats going around once more, for reasons of my own. What I don't get is the passion for abusing other people just because they prefer monos. It's like slinging shit at someone just because they would rather race a motorbike than a car. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Barnacle Bill said:

Lol. I enjoyed that. 

Modern American cars are a total fucking joke. I'd rather walk than be seen in one. What happened to that once great country? 

It still great. Just a different kind of great

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6 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

While the HP and performance of a current Vette or Camaro may be fun it is not the same. The 'technology' you hype is not all that cutting edge, as shown by a couple of cars out there, the rating on some of these combos is not that high at all. With all that is known about making HP these days it is only a matter of how high they want to turn the wick. A NASCAR motor is making close to 900-1000 hp these days without all the computer controls, superchargers, turbo's, etc., even before they went to injection. So a 400-600 rating is not all that big. Much of this is due to limitations of what the regulations will allow to be sold to the public. I was making 500 hp out of 396 back in the late 70's with stock oval port heads, a bit of cam, and an aluminum intake with a 750 Holley on it. An LS6 Chevelle was rated at 450 hp but most everybody knows it was over 500, and the ZL1 427's in the Vette's were the same way. That was almost 50 years ago.

Sure, you can wear a simple cheap digital watch to keep track of time, but for sure you'd rather have a nice Swiss watch, wouldn't you?

Same goes for that cheap 5 dollar bottle vs Châteauneuf-du-Pape

How much fuel does a NASCAR engine consume compare to current generation F1 power-units? 3x? 4x?

Please wake up and embrace what the future holds.

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15 minutes ago, Alpina said:

Sure, you can wear a simple cheap digital watch to keep track of time, but for sure you'd rather have a nice Swiss watch, wouldn't you?

 

No I am very comfortable with a simple, cheap digital watch.

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50 minutes ago, rgeek said:

It still great. Just a different kind of great

Grated cheese great?

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14 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

No I am very comfortable with a simple, cheap digital watch.

I prefer Omega. 

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17 minutes ago, Barnacle Bill said:

Grated cheese great?

Just different cheese

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10 hours ago, The Jay said:

I don't think I've ever insulted anyone because they would like to see a different AC themselves, and I do not assume that I want to watch is what everyone wants to watch.

There's a difference between having a discussion on the facts and objective data, and abusing someone for having different tastes and personal preferences.

Since you've lumped me in with others I don't know, I'd appreciate it if you could point out where I've "abused someone" versus having a different POV? We both have strongly held views, that doesn't constitute abuse. 

FWIW, my preference for foiling cats stems from my belief that it's more likely to attract a broader audience than any monohull designed to date, NOT that I prefer one over the other - I love the foiling cats, I love the J/Class, and many others. I've never owned anything but keelboats, and I'll probably never sail a foiling anything. Two AC's with foiling cats isn't enough to conclude they've been a failure IMO. Going back to monohulls will please older generations, they're not the future of sailing.

We get that you work with younger sailors, and (again) applaud you for same. But there's a much larger population of 20 to 40 somethings you/we are not reaching at all. That's what concerns me. Maybe we never will and sailing is doomed to continue its decline.  Juniors are not turning into boat owners/sailors like they used to, you've conveniently avoided that crucial point several times now...

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15 hours ago, surfsailor said:

1) Wings - with no 'one design' in 2013, all of the wings converged on the same 3D shape anyway, after wasting literally 10s of millions of dollars (per team) chasing phantoms. Let's not forget that - unlike foils - wings for apparent wind machines have nearly 50 years of development (C-class cats).

Yeah converged on practically the same design

...

If you ignore the completely different profile, completely different area distribution between elements, completely different twist mechanisms, one being plain 2 element, the other having a flapped first element :rolleyes:

And C Wings, why they are practically identical :wub:

 

Quote

Explain the Artemis failure and resulting death of Bart Simpson

We all know the reason for that but nobody much wants to state it openly for some reason: They were pushing too hard in a boat they knew was structurally deficient.

In the context that loads on a large foiling cat weren't well known it makes some sense to enforce a one-design structure.

But at some point we need to accept that enough is known about the structural loads of a foiling cat and there are plenty of competent composite engineers out there that teams spending ~$100mil can be reasonably expected to get their shit right & not kill their crew.

I'm not averse to maybe one-design beams in future but it should be reasonable to simply have the top teams/designers get together & come up with a safe min-strength that all competitors would need to prove they at least match.

 

10 hours ago, jaysper said:

Even in NZ, the interest that the general population has in the AC is NOT replicated in any other aspect of the sport.

Hard for the population to give good ratings to a sport that doesn't exist in our media outside the AC & VOR (if we have a team) but has live coverage of 2ndary school rugby.

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8 hours ago, mako23 said:

The most relevant issue is that Patrizio Bertelli is quite an old man. Why would he care about the long term well being of the americas cup. He wants to win and he needs to win this cycle. So he will select a boat that maximises his chances of winning. He spent a lot of money to have this right and he will use to maximum effect. He might select monohulls he might select Cats, but whatever selected will maximise his design talent he has collected. To be honest non of what ive said is proven fact. However its based on articles ive read online stating the link between Luna Rossa and ETNZ. 

It's a matter of mutual consent. And now he defender has taken government coin again they'll need to consider what the other teams need in order to be there.

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52 minutes ago, MidPack said:

Since you've lumped me in with others I don't know, I'd appreciate it if you could point out where I've "abused someone" versus having a different POV? We both have strongly held views, that doesn't constitute abuse. 

FWIW, my preference for foiling cats stems from my belief that it's more likely to attract a broader audience than any monohull designed to date, NOT that I prefer one over the other - I love the foiling cats, I love the J/Class, and many others. I've never owned anything but keelboats, and I'll probably never sail a foiling anything. Two AC's with foiling cats isn't enough to conclude they've been a failure IMO. Going back to monohulls will please older generations, they're not the future of sailing.

We get that you work with younger sailors, and (again) applaud you for same. But there's a much larger population of 20 to 40 somethings you/we are not reaching at all. That's what concerns me. Maybe we never will and sailing is doomed to continue its decline.  Juniors are not turning into boat owners/sailors like they used to, you've conveniently avoided that crucial point several times now...

I didn't say you abused others; it was Groucho who abuses others. I was referring to you as someone who has a perfectly valid preference as to the style of boat they want to watch. Apologies if what I wrote could be misinterpreted.

I haven't avoided the point that 20 to 40 years olds aren't turning into owners. The point is that for close to 30 years now, a large section of the sport has been trying to get them to turn into owners by promoting inaccessible boats and a high-performance televised series. In that time there's been about ten or more new types of high performance boats that we were assured would be "the future of the sport" (sportsboats, canters, skiff foilers, etc) and about ten televised high-performance sailing series. The speed of AC boats has probably tripled, the speed of dinghies has increased by about 30%. And none of it has worked. The sport continues to shrink and it seems to be shrinking faster since 2014. As you say, insanity is repeating the same thing and hoping for a different outcome. Arguably, having another televised event with high-speed boats and hoping that will help the sport is insane by that definition.

Okay, you may say that in the USA, there are conservatives promoting older designs that are holding back the transformation. But that doesn't apply elsewhere. In the UK all the big dinghy manufacturers (Laser, RS, Topper, Ovi) promoted skiff types heavily in the '90s with boats like the 29er, 49er, Boss, Laser 5000 and 4000, etc. That didn't make sailing grow. In Australia the skiff clubs pour tens of thousands per year into supporting high-performance junior training boats and skiffs, and it's not making sailing grow. Hobie and othjer cat manufacturers used to have huge promotional budgets, but their market crashed. Both countries have lots of fast boats, but similar issues to the USA.

On the other hand, we can see what classes are growing or doing well. A bunch of simple, tough classes are holding up pretty well, and a bunch of cheaper, tough, simple new kids classes (Feva, Open Bic, Bic Techno, etc) are doing well. So the ultra high-performance model isn't succeeding despite having huge promotion, an enormous increase in speed over the past few years, and many of the biggest trophies. On the other hand, the simple, cheap, tough model IS succeeding. And in other sports, the same thing is happening - SUPs, plastic kayaks etc are selling well. Leaders in the plastic kayak industry have said explicitly that they gained when sailing went for high tech high performance. Young adults are NOT all (or mostly) fans of high performance gear - they aren't that different to older generations, and they don't have the time or money. 

So what we may need is a different way of promoting the sport - one which does not emphasise extreme speed, but accessibility and economy - the same things that also address the barriers to participation that are identified by independent studies. That means that foilers sailed by guys in crash gear is not going to be the cure for the ills of the sport. Cheaper, simple craft of good moderate performance may be.

By the way, some of the kids I've helped train are in classes that do 25-30 knots+. Extreme craft are great (one of mine is about the 4th fastest International class) but they are always a niche. The extreme craft are having the same problems with retention, if not more, as the older ones. Even the kitesurfers are writing articles bemoaning the lack of youth. More promotion centring on an end of the sport that has been failing to sell for 30 years is not the answer.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Barnacle Bill said:

I prefer Omega. 

Timex Ironman. I like the repeating countdown function, good for rolling start sequences. 10 minutes up the racecourse the beeping reminds me to reset it.

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5 hours ago, Barnacle Bill said:

Lol. I enjoyed that. 

Modern American cars are a total fucking joke. I'd rather walk than be seen in one. What happened to that once great country? 

Don't get me wrong, you get quite a bit with a modern Vette compared to the cost of the more exotic cars out there. They are all in the same bunch though, computer controlled systems: engine management, traction control, suspension adjustments, etc. My traction control, to quote an old phrase, was my right foot. With the old street tires it took a bit of practice to figure-out how to make it hook up.

What happened to the great country? The EPA and the insurance companies, after the high water mark of 1970 the automakers had to dial back and worry about Japanese competition, emissions, and MPG. Add-in the oil crisis and it set US horsepower development back 20+ years or so. Again, cleaning-up the emissions I do not call a bad thing, the exhaust was pretty dirty, but all three almost at the same time put a dent in development for a long time until they figured it out.

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Disagree that high performance has been pushed to the exclusion of other forms of sailing. Designs catering for a wide range of sailors are bought to market all the time. High performance offerings have often fallen on their arse. That hasn't meant that J boats have neglected to bring the J70 to market, or that Speed Sails have stopped offering FRP Solos.

All the attempts to commercialise sailing you've highlighted have been about the promoter and/or sailors getting paid. Bugger all to do with encouraging participation.

There are abundant examples of the professional/commercial top level of a sport driving participation, but it's not a given. The GAA in Ireland is an amazing example where they have managed to recirculate the vast majority of commercial income into grass roots participation.

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1 hour ago, The Jay said:

I didn't say you abused others; it was Groucho who abuses others. I was referring to you as someone who has a perfectly valid preference as to the style of boat they want to watch. Apologies if what I wrote could be misinterpreted.

I haven't avoided the point that 20 to 40 years olds aren't turning into owners. The point is that for close to 30 years now, a large section of the sport has been trying to get them to turn into owners by promoting inaccessible boats and a high-performance televised series. In that time there's been about ten or more new types of high performance boats that we were assured would be "the future of the sport" (sportsboats, canters, skiff foilers, etc) and about ten televised high-performance sailing series. The speed of AC boats has probably tripled, the speed of dinghies has increased by about 30%. And none of it has worked. The sport continues to shrink and it seems to be shrinking faster since 2014. As you say, insanity is repeating the same thing and hoping for a different outcome. Arguably, having another televised event with high-speed boats and hoping that will help the sport is insane by that definition.

Okay, you may say that in the USA, there are conservatives promoting older designs that are holding back the transformation. But that doesn't apply elsewhere. In the UK all the big dinghy manufacturers (Laser, RS, Topper, Ovi) promoted skiff types heavily in the '90s with boats like the 29er, 49er, Boss, Laser 5000 and 4000, etc. That didn't make sailing grow. In Australia the skiff clubs pour tens of thousands per year into supporting high-performance junior training boats and skiffs, and it's not making sailing grow. Hobie and othjer cat manufacturers used to have huge promotional budgets, but their market crashed. Both countries have lots of fast boats, but similar issues to the USA.

On the other hand, we can see what classes are growing or doing well. A bunch of simple, tough classes are holding up pretty well, and a bunch of cheaper, tough, simple new kids classes (Feva, Open Bic, Bic Techno, etc) are doing well. So the ultra high-performance model isn't succeeding despite having huge promotion, an enormous increase in speed over the past few years, and many of the biggest trophies. On the other hand, the simple, cheap, tough model IS succeeding. And in other sports, the same thing is happening - SUPs, plastic kayaks etc are selling well. Leaders in the plastic kayak industry have said explicitly that they gained when sailing went for high tech high performance. Young adults are NOT all (or mostly) fans of high performance gear - they aren't that different to older generations, and they don't have the time or money. 

So what we may need is a different way of promoting the sport - one which does not emphasise extreme speed, but accessibility and economy - the same things that also address the barriers to participation that are identified by independent studies. That means that foilers sailed by guys in crash gear is not going to be the cure for the ills of the sport. Cheaper, simple craft of good moderate performance may be.

By the way, some of the kids I've helped train are in classes that do 25-30 knots+. Extreme craft are great (one of mine is about the 4th fastest International class) but they are always a niche. The extreme craft are having the same problems with retention, if not more, as the older ones. Even the kitesurfers are writing articles bemoaning the lack of youth. More promotion centring on an end of the sport that has been failing to sell for 30 years is not the answer.

 

 

 

I'll start by saying I agree, speed or extreme speed does not sell well to the masses.  The masses are not here on SA and I'll take on the surface you seem knowledgeable about the sailing industry.  

What is killing off sailing in general is three fold
Cost
Time
Effort

Foiling cats in the AC does not fix that nor would a Dali like mono alone so the arguments about how one or the other is the saving grace of Sailing matters little.  Today, we, at least in the US, are working harder with less free time.  We pay higher costs on anything and disposable income, especially for 20-30 year olds decreases so if some of those people wants to buy a sailboat, what will they buy?  An expensive, hard to sail HP foiler of some kind or a standard, easier to sail boat that has classes and people to race against.  Foiling is not status quo, it has been and is the fringe.  When foiling classes reach 51% of parity in the industry we can talk whether they are mainstream.

As to keeping people in sailing, again foiling is a dead end.  by 35-40 we have families and families don't put kids in the back of a vette (as a norm).  SUVs, Minivans, things that are practical and still allow for fun.  You won't see foiling cruisers and those getting older sailors want to maybe join a club, race ODs (if they can afford it) or more likely PHRF.  Walk down the docks of a marina, a club or the parking lot and count the number of foiling cats owned by "the people".

Wrap that all up and there is your main audience.  Not the small set of "special people" found here on SA or following the HP/Extreme sports.  The two most popular sailing events today are the VG and the VOR, both run on monohulls (foil-assist and not).  It's already been stated that AC35 was not a very popular event, but some of that I put on the greed of RC and LE.  THe other part is that most people may find the cats interesting for a moment, but cannot really connect so they move on.

Right now the America's Cup is broken.  Connor made the first break, but Coutts shattered it completely and today, folks think that a foiling cat represents the AC, because it is the "best of the best" when it never was.  They think it is about the future when the Cup only reflected the present, just a little better.  There were faster boats than the J class, faster boats than the 12s, IACCs and it was those faster boats that were the innovators of the sport.  C Class Cats, HP ocean cats, foiling anything.  They could experiment, play, test outside the mass attention and let their discoveries move out into the light when the larger public was ready.  Cats should have never been introduced to the AC, because now what you have is the fastest of all boats out there and your average joe or jane could never sail it.  I can imagine me on a 65 dali foiled mono smashing into waves.  I cannot ever imagine me on a flying boat, pissing in my pants for if I make one mistake its all over  (re NZ crash).  Optics.....they do matter.

The best thing for boats like the AC50s is to form a fleet, start a series and keep pushing the edge of the technology envelope and stay out of the America's Cup.  Amazing boats they are, but while the may represent the best of the best, the masses want better then most.  I hope that NZ supports a 60-70 ft mono with foils for righting assist.  If you don't think they can use them on a tight beat, go watch the VG and Hugo Boss.  No canting keel, standardized standing rig and deck hardware, but open box design on hull, open design on keel, foils, rudder.  I also hope NZ does OTA and internet broadcasting through Youtube or a website that does not require payment.  I'm okay with scrolling ads, ad surrounding view window (that is not proprietary)  or ad breaks between races.  I hope they race on the HG and put minimal weather restrictions (other than < 5 kts winds) and that there is more video angles including drone shots.  I stayed up most the night watching the 87 cup.  Seeing those boats smashing through waves, watching a genora split in half, a spinnaker blow out, a crew fuck up a sail change and through it all, I watched a team work together to fix it....yeah, that was an America's Cup.

 

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12 hours ago, mako23 said:

The most relevant issue is that Patrizio Bertelli is quite an old man. Why would he care about the long term well being of the americas cup. He wants to win and he needs to win this cycle. So he will select a boat that maximises his chances of winning. He spent a lot of money to have this right and he will use to maximum effect. He might select monohulls he might select Cats, but whatever selected will maximise his design talent he has collected. To be honest non of what ive said is proven fact. However its based on articles ive read online stating the link between Luna Rossa and ETNZ. 

agree

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5 hours ago, hoom said:

Yeah converged on practically the same design

...

If you ignore the completely different profile, completely different area distribution between elements, completely different twist mechanisms, one being plain 2 element, the other having a flapped first element :rolleyes:

And C Wings, why they are practically identical :wub:

 

We all know the reason for that but nobody much wants to state it openly for some reason: They were pushing too hard in a boat they knew was structurally deficient.

In the context that loads on a large foiling cat weren't well known it makes some sense to enforce a one-design structure.

But at some point we need to accept that enough is known about the structural loads of a foiling cat and there are plenty of competent composite engineers out there that teams spending ~$100mil can be reasonably expected to get their shit right & not kill their crew.

I'm not averse to maybe one-design beams in future but it should be reasonable to simply have the top teams/designers get together & come up with a safe min-strength that all competitors would need to prove they at least match.

 

 

Converged on similar 3D flying shapes, not 'design'. Try quoting me correctly. Do you seriously think ETNZ (or anyone else) would've revisited the twisting LE this time round? Do you understand that the twist mechanisms were NOT one design? Do you think wing design - as opposed to wing trim/set up - was the deciding factor in 2013? For sure you could make incremental gains in wing performance given unlimited budgets - probably just enough to say bye bye to two of the teams. So sure, if the goal is to limit the number of viable teams for a tiny performance gain, have at it. But that was NOT the goal of AC35, and the proof is in the pudding - epic challenger series with 5 teams, and a challenger actually won the cup against a formidable defender. It doesn't get any more inclusive or fair than that.

Re Artemis - that's a cool story, but it totally ignores the fact that the launch of ART boat 2 in 2013 was delayed so the crossbeam could be massively re-engineered as well. I believe OR lent them some FEA talent to get the job done. My point was why introduce/incentivize risk taking in a key structural area that has little impact on performance?

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On a more simpler level, wouldn't the status of Glenn Ashby be a significant marker in regards to the type of boats for AC36?  He is a wing sail expert and a multi-hull guy, for the most part.  Would he hang around ETNZ if the next boats were anything but wing sailed foilers?

WetHog  :ph34r:

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27 minutes ago, WetHog said:

On a more simpler level, wouldn't the status of Glenn Ashby be a significant marker in regards to the type of boats for AC36?  He is a wing sail expert and a multi-hull guy, for the most part.  Would he hang around ETNZ if the next boats were anything but wing sailed foilers?

WetHog  :ph34r:

Fair point, but someone with the status of Glenn Ashby also wouldn't tip his hand before the RNZYS disclosed their plans, even though he may know what's coming. If it's a monoslug, he could quietly move on/back to other events/classes once it's been formally announced to all.

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25 minutes ago, MidPack said:

Fair point, but someone with the status of Glenn Ashby also wouldn't tip his hand before the RNZYS disclosed their plans, even though he may know what's coming. If it's a monoslug, he could quietly move on/back to other events/classes once it's been formally announced to all.

I wouldn't think he would tip his hand, but worth keeping track of just in case...

WetHog  :ph34r:

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59 minutes ago, WetHog said:

On a more simpler level, wouldn't the status of Glenn Ashby be a significant marker in regards to the type of boats for AC36?  He is a wing sail expert and a multi-hull guy, for the most part.  Would he hang around ETNZ if the next boats were anything but wing sailed foilers?

WetHog  :ph34r:

Personally, I think that they will stick with the beach cats :(

BUT why would Ashby leave ETNZ if they chose monos? It wouldn't matter which team he went to, the boats would STILL be monos.

His only other choice would be to leave the AC, which would mean a LOT less $$$ and prestige.

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6 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

Right now the America's Cup is broken.  Connor made the first break, but Coutts shattered it completely and today, folks think that a foiling cat represents the AC, because it is the "best of the best" when it never was.  They think it is about the future when the Cup only reflected the present, just a little better.  There were faster boats than the J class, faster boats than the 12s, IACCs and it was those faster boats that were the innovators of the sport.  C Class Cats, HP ocean cats, foiling anything.  They could experiment, play, test outside the mass attention and let their discoveries move out into the light when the larger public was ready.  Cats should have never been introduced to the AC, because now what you have is the fastest of all boats out there and your average joe or jane could never sail it. I can imagine me on a 65 dali foiled mono smashing into waves.  I cannot ever imagine me on a flying boat, pissing in my pants for if I make one mistake its all over  (re NZ crash).  Optics.....they do matter.

This has been a common theme of the anti foiling cat crowd, but I don't get it. While Joe or Jane couldn't handle a foiling cat, they couldn't begin to handle a J/Class, 12m, IACC or a Dali foiled mono. Maybe they mistakely think they could?

And foiling cats are to the boats Joe and Jane sail as F1 race cars are to the cars Joe and Jane drive. Not sure why the pinnacle of sailing competition should be in boats Joe and Jane relate to any more than F1 should be run in Toyota Camry's or even Porsche 911 GT2 RS's.

I believe foiling cats are better for the sport, but I may well be wrong. Monohulls have failed to bring new blood to the sport for decades, and it's much too early to conclude foiling won't do better. But maybe nothing can overcome the cost, time, effort barriers and the sport is doomed to become a niche sport like polo and equestrian. We can all cite facts (and ignore others) that suit our POV, though none of us can prove our POV, and few if any if us know better than the folks making the decisions. I don't presume to know better. Time will tell...eventually.

Looking forward to RNZYS putting us out of our misery. I'll enjoy the next AC unless it's a displacement monohull.

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Who says its the pinnacle of sailing? I would put the VOR above the AC or the Vendee, the thing is that sailing is very diverse and this is where the foiling true believers have got it wrong.  Foiling with a wing is not really sailing as the rest of the world relates to sailing. It is flying and has more in common with aircraft and computers than yachts. One thing that defines sailing for me is the simple relationship between human sailing skill, water and wind. I think the AC 50's erode that to the point where its a freak show. Foiling will never be mainstream, it has a place but it's not for general consumption.

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These didnt really take off commercially, a mate had one and it was only a flat water thrill machine while it held together.

 

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

On a more simpler level, wouldn't the status of Glenn Ashby be a significant marker in regards to the type of boats for AC36?  He is a wing sail expert and a multi-hull guy, for the most part.  Would he hang around ETNZ if the next boats were anything but wing sailed foilers?

WetHog  :ph34r:

You are rather under selling Glenn. To call him a wing sail expert is way wide of the mark. I don't think he had used a wing sail until he joined Oracle for AC33. He is and always has been a world class sailmaker whose sails have won countless world championships in a range of classes. It is his understanding of rigs in general that enabled him to become a world class wing expert and the skills he has would translate into the rig of any high performance sailboat. The other skill he has that cannot be under estimated is his ability to plan and run a campaign. How did ETNZ do so well despite having less sailing time than the others, less time at the venue and less time competing against others? Besides the obvious answer of better design, it was the program that Glenn put together in his role as skipper and being in charge of all sailing activity. He has a methodical approach to sailing and training that will translate to any type of boat.

To suggest Glenn is only a multihull guy who won't hang around if it is anything other than a wing sailed foiler is as blinkered as saying that Pete Burling was only a monohull guy before he joined ETNZ and had nothing to offer. We all know how that turned out. The very top sailors are top sailors in whatever they sail and their underlying skills transfer from boat to boat. 

I can't see Glenn going anywhere, irrespective of what type of boat is selected. I am not sure he would have stayed around if they had lost again, because he has sacrificed a lot of time away from his young family but a campaign totally based in NZ will suit him and I expect he will commute on a weekly basis back and forth from home to NZ.

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3 hours ago, MidPack said:

Fair point, but someone with the status of Glenn Ashby also wouldn't tip his hand before the RNZYS disclosed their plans, even though he may know what's coming. If it's a monoslug, he could quietly move on/back to other events/classes once it's been formally announced to all.

Really!I guess he'll think it twice.  He won't get paid anywhere else what he's being paid in TNZ.

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1 hour ago, MidPack said:

This has been a common theme of the anti foiling cat crowd, but I don't get it. While Joe or Jane couldn't handle a foiling cat, they couldn't begin to handle a J/Class, 12m, IACC or a Dali foiled mono. Maybe they mistakely think they could?

And foiling cats are to the boats Joe and Jane sail as F1 race cars are to the cars Joe and Jane drive. Not sure why the pinnacle of sailing competition should be in boats Joe and Jane relate to any more than F1 should be run in Toyota Camry's or even Porsche 911 GT2 RS's.

I believe foiling cats are better for the sport, but I may well be wrong. Monohulls have failed to bring new blood to the sport for decades, and it's much too early to conclude foiling won't do better. But maybe nothing can overcome the cost, time, effort barriers and the sport is doomed to become a niche sport like polo and equestrian. We can all cite facts (and ignore others) that suit our POV, though none of us can prove our POV, and few if any if us know better than the folks making the decisions. I don't presume to know better. Time will tell...eventually.

Looking forward to RNZYS putting us out of our misery. I'll enjoy the next AC unless it's a displacement monohull.

I believe sailing (as it used to be) in general has failed to bring new blood to the sport. The new generations seem to don't know what they want, but they want it now.. That's the cause why such as windsurf, beach cats, kites are the most populars. You get there, rig, and go out sailing. Finish, pack it all and leave. There are exceptions. France is one country that amazes me. They've got the Imocas , the tri's, and other classes,  although it is not as the way it used to be, they keep on building boats and sponsoring. Someone is doing something wrong

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1 hour ago, Gutterblack said:

 

These didnt really take off commercially, a mate had one and it was only a flat water thrill machine while it held together.

 

That is my concern about this foiling stuff. SoMeonE around here said Masserati was going to have a picnic, but it didn't happen. In the long run in open waters, things get levelled

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I don't necessarily agree with the arguments that some are putting forth that "the average Joe or Jane should be able to sail an America's Cup boat" - but I do agree that it should be something that a kid should be able to aspire to. I can totally get the point that it is a pretty hard sell to try to say to kids:

"here you go learn to sail this little optimist and one day you too could be flying a computer controlled aeroplane above the water"

And even though I can concede that the future of the A Cup may mean teams need super endurance athletes, there is a part of me that thinks it is really cool that the average Joe can go out on Auckland harbour and have a match race "experience" in NZL41 v NZL66, I can't see that ever happening with foiling cats.

Lots of "Cat" people are arguing that ETNZ wouldn't want to move away from AC50s because they currently have a technological edge over other teams, but I don't really buy that line of reasoning - after AC34 Oracle clearly had the tech edge over ETNZ but that didn't stop ETNZ participating and gaining the ascendency.

I do think if they stick with AC50s then overnight all grinders are out of a job - and that might discourage many teams from participating: ETNZ have basically proven that cycling is the better option for such a hydraulic-hungry foiler. And for that reason alone, coupled with the different conditions in Auckland, I am convinced that even if they stick with foiling cats, the new class will be different from the AC50.

 

 

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  Who knows what it will be, but highly developed monos will still be lots of fun. The platform is only part of the cup, its the 4 years of intrigue that makes it what it is

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65-70 ft foiling monos, with canting keels. 20ft bowsprit. Expected to do 30 downwind in 15. BAR, Artemis, LR & Alinghi already signed up. Think what they did with AC 50, can't wait to see what this will do for monos......... stand by for the announcements 

 

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10 minutes ago, Onthelock! said:

65-70 ft foiling monos, with canting keels. 20ft bowsprit. Expected to do 30 downwind in 15. BAR, Artemis, LR & Alinghi already signed up. Think what they did with AC 50, can't wait to see what this will do for monos......... stand by for the announcements 

Designers, naval architects, sailors, etc. know way more about monohulls, and have for decades. If they could have created something exciting with monos, why did they go in the direction of catamarans in the first place? Maybe this mythical foiling mono is a pipe dream? It's not as if Russell or the prominent owners/skippers came from multihulls - just the opposite.

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10 hours ago, rgeek said:

It's a matter of mutual consent. And now he defender has taken government coin again they'll need to consider what the other teams need in order to be there.

If the rumours are true, the price for Luna Rossa help to ETNZ was that Luna Rossa gets to select the boat. You dont think all that help comes for free

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42 minutes ago, Onthelock! said:

65-70 ft foiling monos, with canting keels. 20ft bowsprit. Expected to do 30 downwind in 15. BAR, Artemis, LR & Alinghi already signed up. Think what they did with AC 50, can't wait to see what this will do for monos......... stand by for the announcements 

 

Will be funny watching foiling kites turn around them with a budget of a few hundred bucks vs a few hundred Millions. :D

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30 minutes ago, mako23 said:

If the rumours are true, the price for Luna Rossa help to ETNZ was that Luna Rossa gets to select the boat. You dont think all that help comes for free

It makes sense, but they will have to draw the crowds.

A mono will make an excellent opportunity for another event with world fastest foilers.

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2 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

You are rather under selling Glenn. To call him a wing sail expert is way wide of the mark. I don't think he had used a wing sail until he joined Oracle for AC33. He is and always has been a world class sailmaker whose sails have won countless world championships in a range of classes. It is his understanding of rigs in general that enabled him to become a world class wing expert and the skills he has would translate into the rig of any high performance sailboat. The other skill he has that cannot be under estimated is his ability to plan and run a campaign. How did ETNZ do so well despite having less sailing time than the others, less time at the venue and less time competing against others? Besides the obvious answer of better design, it was the program that Glenn put together in his role as skipper and being in charge of all sailing activity. He has a methodical approach to sailing and training that will translate to any type of boat.

To suggest Glenn is only a multihull guy who won't hang around if it is anything other than a wing sailed foiler is as blinkered as saying that Pete Burling was only a monohull guy before he joined ETNZ and had nothing to offer. We all know how that turned out. The very top sailors are top sailors in whatever they sail and their underlying skills transfer from boat to boat. 

I can't see Glenn going anywhere, irrespective of what type of boat is selected. I am not sure he would have stayed around if they had lost again, because he has sacrificed a lot of time away from his young family but a campaign totally based in NZ will suit him and I expect he will commute on a weekly basis back and forth from home to NZ.

I didn't undersell Ashby.  Clean recently did an interview with Ashby right after winning the AC and my comment is based off that interview.   Did you listen to it?

A link to that interview is below.  It is chock full of interesting information.

https://secure-hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/6/5/8/658c9c9b8ea7f3a5/23_-_The_Secrets_Of_The_Americas_Cup_with_ETNZ_Wing_Trimmer_Glenn_Ashby.mp3?c_id=15902643&expiration=1499820441&hwt=4646aa12f094188e8da9f55d7a250b44

WetHog  :ph34r:

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56 minutes ago, MidPack said:

Designers, naval architects, sailors, etc. know way more about monohulls, and have for decades. If they could have created something exciting with monos, why did they go in the direction of catamarans in the first place? Maybe this mythical foiling mono is a pipe dream? It's not as if Russell or the prominent owners/skippers came from multihulls - just the opposite.

In what way do you mean?  Just sticking with the AC, the very first Cat was from Dennis Connor and he only created it to get round a rule and still beat NZ in DoG match race.  I really doubt, had he designed a monohull defender, Cats would be in the cup today.  However, it was not designers, it was that POS (piece of scum) Coutts that pushed Cats into the forefront.  Designers don't the first say, Defenders (or challengers it would seem) do and designers work with what they are given.

If you don't think there is innovation in monohulls, there is lots of excitement about PT52s, the Vendee IMOCA 65s are tearing up the water with Dali foils, VOTR is going with a Nextgen monohull for RTW racing.  Do you really think they can get nothing more than incremental speed out of an AC50 type boat and by incremental we're noting going to look at a knot here and there?

If they put this event on the Haraki Gulf with foils then they will have to limit racing conditions.  Once they do that it just becomes another race of fragile boats and not, as Dalton said, a race of yachtsmen.  We'll have to worry about wave heights for otherwise you can't foil.  What if the wind is over even a "heavy air" day, you can't race or you so reduce the sail area as to make it a joke.

Foiling boats may be cool, but they cannot be offshore racing vessels and truly be exciting in all conditions.  Show me a video of an AC50 like cat going up wind in 3 meter waves and 25-30 kts and I'll reconsider.

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4 hours ago, jaysper said:

Personally, I think that they will stick with the beach cats :(

BUT why would Ashby leave ETNZ if they chose monos? It wouldn't matter which team he went to, the boats would STILL be monos.

His only other choice would be to leave the AC, which would mean a LOT less $$$ and prestige.

He said in the Clean interview he is only interested in foiling boats and he's not in it for the money based on his comment about not caring if it takes 20 years for him to pay off his house.

So it sounds like Ashby would/could leave the AC all together if a boat is chosen that doesn't meet his expectations.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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15 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

In what way do you mean?  Just sticking with the AC, the very first Cat was from Dennis Connor and he only created it to get round a rule and still beat NZ in DoG match race.  I really doubt, had he designed a monohull defender, Cats would be in the cup today.  However, it was not designers, it was that POS (piece of scum) Coutts that pushed Cats into the forefront.  Designers don't the first say, Defenders (or challengers it would seem) do and designers work with what they are given.

If you don't think there is innovation in monohulls, there is lots of excitement about PT52s, the Vendee IMOCA 65s are tearing up the water with Dali foils, VOTR is going with a Nextgen monohull for RTW racing.  Do you really think they can get nothing more than incremental speed out of an AC50 type boat and by incremental we're noting going to look at a knot here and there?

If they put this event on the Haraki Gulf with foils then they will have to limit racing conditions.  Once they do that it just becomes another race of fragile boats and not, as Dalton said, a race of yachtsmen.  We'll have to worry about wave heights for otherwise you can't foil.  What if the wind is over even a "heavy air" day, you can't race or you so reduce the sail area as to make it a joke.

Foiling boats may be cool, but they cannot be offshore racing vessels and truly be exciting in all conditions.  Show me a video of an AC50 like cat going up wind in 3 meter waves and 25-30 kts and I'll reconsider.

From what I remember of AC30 and AC31 in regards to wind limits is there were a number of races that were cancelled for to much wind and there were a number of breakages from both the Challengers and the Defender due to wind.  Including below:

fcifx4.jpg

So whatever boat is chosen it will need to be durable enough to handle whatever the Gulf throws at it.  Not a simple task.

WetHog  :ph34r: 

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1 minute ago, WetHog said:

From what I remember of AC30 and AC31 in regards to wind limits is there were a number of races that were cancelled for to much wind and there were a number of breakages from both the Challengers and the Defender due to wind.  Including below:

fcifx4.jpg

So whatever boat is chosen it will need to be durable enough to handle whatever the Gulf throws at it.  Not a simple task.

WetHog  :ph34r: 

Valid point, but still stands that a foiler cannot handle heavy conditions that a well built monohull can and stay above the water. 

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14 minutes ago, WetHog said:

He said in the Clean interview he is only interested in foiling boats and he's not in it for the money based on his comment about not caring if it takes 20 years for him to pay off his house.

So it sounds like Ashby would/could leave the AC all together if a boat is chosen that doesn't meet his expectations.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Andddddddd?

In business, management makes decisions that employees don't always like.  They then have a choice to get on board, grin and bear it, or don't let the door hit your ass on they way out.  If Ashby think's he's such a diva that if they don't do what he wants he walks....don't let the door hit your ass.  Management will find another.

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10 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Valid point, but still stands that a foiler cannot handle heavy conditions that a well built monohull can and stay above the water. 

I don't think a foiler is right for the Gulf either.  Look at AC34.  OR pitch poled, ETNZ almost pitch poled and Artemis pitch poled and a sailor was killed.  I've never been to the Haraki Gulf in person, but from following past AC's I have the impression that is as windy as SF but with rougher seas.  Based on that a more stout/stable platform would be needed and an AC72/62/50 is not it.

6 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Andddddddd?

In business, management makes decisions that employees don't always like.  They then have a choice to get on board, grin and bear it, or don't let the door hit your ass on they way out.  If Ashby think's he's such a diva that if they don't do what he wants he walks....don't let the door hit your ass.  Management will find another.

And, based on the Clean interview, I made my initial comment that Glenn Ashby may be the key in figuring out what the next boat will be.  Foiler/winged multihull, then Ashby probably re-ups with ETNZ.  A mono-hull of any type and Ashby probably moves on to something else.  

I also fail to see how someone saying he wants to sail fast/foiling multi-hulls and isn't motivated by money when it comes to sailing would fall in the Diva category.  Quite the opposite.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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32 minutes ago, WetHog said:

He said in the Clean interview he is only interested in foiling boats and he's not in it for the money based on his comment about not caring if it takes 20 years for him to pay off his house.

So it sounds like Ashby would/could leave the AC all together if a boat is chosen that doesn't meet his expectations.

WetHog  :ph34r:

The boat meeting his expectations and it needing to be a winged, foiling cat are 2 very different things.

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35 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

The boat meeting his expectations and it needing to be a winged, foiling cat are 2 very different things.

"...the technology, pushing the boundaries, both structurally and hydro-dynamically and aerodynamically is something, that absolutely for me, makes sailing tick and making sailing what it is.  Its why I like sailing moths and A-cats and all the high tech, high performance, boats and development boats and, for me, I don't really mind what we do down the track as long as it takes sailing into the next dimension I will be very happy"

Thats Ashby's quote on what he want with the next boat.  He said before this quote that multi-hull, mono-hull, trimaran or mixture of all three doesn't matter so long as its fully foiling, but do you see a mono hull being fully foiling?  Why would you make a fully foiling mono-hull?  Seems clear he wants to build on what was learned from AC34 and AC35 and remain fully foiling.  That means a multi-hull.  So it stands to reason if Bertelli pushes for, and gets, a mono-hull that Ashby won't be interested in continuing.  Is that an absolute certainty?  No, but a real possibility and why keeping track of what Ashby does in regards to his AC future might shed light on what the boat for AC36 will be.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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5 hours ago, surfsailor said:

Converged on similar 3D flying shapes, not 'design'. Try quoting me correctly. Do you seriously think ETNZ (or anyone else) would've revisited the twisting LE this time round? Do you understand that the twist mechanisms were NOT one design? Do you think wing design - as opposed to wing trim/set up - was the deciding factor in 2013?

For sure you could make incremental gains in wing performance given unlimited budgets - probably just enough to say bye bye to two of the teams. So sure, if the goal is to limit the number of viable teams for a tiny performance gain, have at it.

 

Re Artemis - that's a cool story, but it totally ignores the fact that the launch of ART boat 2 in 2013 was delayed so the crossbeam could be massively re-engineered as well. I believe OR lent them some FEA talent to get the job done. My point was why introduce/incentivize risk taking in a key structural area that has little impact on performance?

Similar 3D flying shapes? They were more different than most sails.

We can't know if ETNZ would have gone with LE twist this time because they had no choice, we do know they stayed with twist based trimming so maybe.

Wing design was a part of the difference yes.

Its true that wings are complex, the one-design main structure for the leading element may have helped some teams & that may be worth repeating if one-designing the beams :)

But one-design of the rest of the surface while assuming teams to be competent to design & build the control and structure for the rest of the wing was completely unnecessary.

 

Art was helped not only by Orifice, ETNZ gave their load calculations as well from my recollection.

Fact is though that it was poorly designed/built & the sailors pushed it to breaking point despite being well aware of its issues.

One-design the beams or make sure that a decent basic load calculation is provided, it doesn't mean the whole thing needs to be one-design.

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

I

Foiling boats may be cool, but they cannot be offshore racing vessels and truly be exciting in all conditions.  Show me a video of an AC50 like cat going up wind in 3 meter waves and 25-30 kts and I'll reconsider.

Round the globe is held by trimarans with C foils.

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

I don't think a foiler is right for the Gulf either.  Look at AC34.  OR pitch poled, ETNZ almost pitch poled and Artemis pitch poled and a sailor was killed.  I've never been to the Haraki Gulf in person, but from following past AC's I have the impression that is as windy as SF but with rougher seas.  Based on that a more stout/stable platform would be needed and an AC72/62/50 is not it.

And, based on the Clean interview, I made my initial comment that Glenn Ashby may be the

23 minutes ago, WetHog said:

"...the technology, pushing the boundaries, both structurally and hydro-dynamically and aerodynamically is something, that absolutely for me, makes sailing tick and making sailing what it is.  Its why I like sailing moths and A-cats and all the high tech, high performance, boats and development boats and, for me, I don't really mind what we do down the track as long as it takes sailing into the next dimension I will be very happy"

Thats Ashby's quote on what he want with the next boat.  He said before this quote that multi-hull, mono-hull, trimaran or mixture of all three doesn't matter so long as its fully foiling, but do you see a mono hull being fully foiling?  Why would you make a fully foiling mono-hull?  Seems clear he wants to build on what was learned from AC34 and AC35 and remain fully foiling.  That means a multi-hull.  So it stands to reason if Bertelli pushes for, and gets, a mono-hull that Ashby won't be interested in continuing.  Is that an absolute certainty?  No, but a real possibility and why keeping track of what Ashby does in regards to his AC future might shed light on what the boat for AC36 will be.

WetHog  :ph34r:

.  Foiler/winged multihull, then Ashby probably re-ups with ETNZ.  A mono-hull of any type and Ashby probably moves on to something else.  

I also fail to see how someone saying he wants to sail fast/foiling multi-hulls and isn't motivated by money when it comes to sailing would fall in the Diva category.  Quite the opposite.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

I better understand your point.  You see him as bellweather for how NZ will swing, but I see him as a poor one at best.  He's an employee.  I really doubt the mover and shakers are going to really tell Glenn before they tell the world and if they do, they will say "do nothing till we announce".  And he will for he not only wants to be paid, he wants to keep his reputation.  The order will be NZ announcing the next boat style, Glenn quitting or staying on.

Just for shits and giggles I went to the NZ team page for information.  Y'all advocating foiling cats, what was the break down of crew on this fine machine.

Well, we had a skipper...of course.
we had a helmsman...of course
We had something call a cyclist/trimmer...hmmmm
then we had cyclist.

Bowman...nope
Mastman...nope
main trimmer...nope
genoa trimmer...nope

Hey kids, you too can aspire to be a cyclist on an AC boat.  What do they do Dad?  Why they pedal so the boat goes faster.  Why do the pedal dad, doesn't it have sails?  No son, it has a wing and only one person need adjust it.  What does the helmsman do dad?  Steer like it's an xbox.  

 

Yep, the future of sailing as envisioned by extreme foilers the world round.....

I'll pass.

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

He said in the Clean interview he is only interested in foiling boats and he's not in it for the money based on his comment about not caring if it takes 20 years for him to pay off his house.

So it sounds like Ashby would/could leave the AC all together if a boat is chosen that doesn't meet his expectations.

WetHog  :ph34r:

jajaja I would like to hear his wife's opinion (if he has one)

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

Valid point, but still stands that a foiler cannot handle heavy conditions that a well built monohull can and stay above the water. 

A well built multi could (not necessary foiling)

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5 hours ago, Gutterblack said:

 

These didnt really take off commercially, a mate had one and it was only a flat water thrill machine while it held together.

 

thats quite impressive given the age and those foiling gybes they are throwing.  

 

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2 hours ago, MidPack said:

Designers, naval architects, sailors, etc. know way more about monohulls, and have for decades. If they could have created something exciting with monos, why did they go in the direction of catamarans in the first place? Maybe this mythical foiling mono is a pipe dream? It's not as if Russell or the prominent owners/skippers came from multihulls - just the opposite.

Well maybe...when lazza/russ figured out that they couldn't get bmworacleusa up to speed and win a cup, and they decided that a DoG lawyer shit fight was the way to go, their naval architects recalled how Bad Dennis got the better of the kiwis with a winged cat and advised on a cat protocol so the evil erne$to couldn't slide a wheel under them with a cat...and why not go big with a fuck off wing and spend some of lazza's trouser money...lazza got a hardon and they went with it...

Some exciting monos have been developed since then, imocas, volvos and VG's,  Commanche... and with the full kick in the nuts of AC development who knows what would happen..

You say doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity..well you have had DoG cats, AC72's, world super league of the world 45's and AC50's...I see no evidence that sailing has changed its image, has drawn a tv audience or has generated any interest from junior sailors or indeed the average club sailor or cruiser..nor the fucking face bookers, Joe six packers it was all aimed at...

Maybe it's time to see if an AC boat that has some resemblance to the boats that we all sail can change things..anyone who has seen tp 52's in big air knows are full on, AC typo 90's in the HG just might remind everyone that sailing is techy, fast and fun, something that in their dreams they could see themselves doing....

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6 hours ago, jaysper said:

Personally, I think that they will stick with the beach cats :(

BUT why would Ashby leave ETNZ if they chose monos? It wouldn't matter which team he went to, the boats would STILL be monos.

His only other choice would be to leave the AC, which would mean a LOT less $$$ and prestige.

Listen to the interview.  He don't give a shit about that.  If he stayed in a monohull AC, it would only because it was technically interesting and potentially fast.

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5 minutes ago, ro! said:

Well maybe...when lazza/russ figured out that they couldn't get bmworacleusa up to speed and win a cup, and they decided that a DoG lawyer shit fight was the way to go, their naval architects recalled how Bad Dennis got the better of the kiwis with a winged cat and advised on a cat protocol so the evil erne$to couldn't slide a wheel under them with a cat...and why not go big with a fuck off wing and spend some of lazza's trouser money...lazza got a hardon and they went with it...

Some exciting monos have been developed since then, imocas, volvos and VG's,  Commanche... and with the full kick in the nuts of AC development who knows what would happen..

You say doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity..well you have had DoG cats, AC72's, world super league of the world 45's and AC50's...I see no evidence that sailing has changed its image, has drawn a tv audience or has generated any interest from junior sailors or indeed the average club sailor or cruiser..nor the fucking face bookers, Joe six packers it was all aimed at...

Maybe it's time to see if an AC boat that has some resemblance to the boats that we all sail can change things..anyone who has seen tp 52's in big air knows are full on, AC typo 90's in the HG just might remind everyone that sailing is techy, fast and fun, something that in their dreams they could see themselves doing....

 i was a bit cold on monos, this video gives me some encouragement.  but i still can't see how it would be anything but lame in lower wind ranges. 

 

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11 minutes ago, ro! said:

Well maybe...when lazza/russ figured out that they couldn't get bmworacleusa up to speed and win a cup, and they decided that a DoG lawyer shit fight was the way to go, their naval architects recalled how Bad Dennis got the better of the kiwis with a winged cat and advised on a cat protocol so the evil erne$to couldn't slide a wheel under them with a cat...and why not go big with a fuck off wing and spend some of lazza's trouser money...lazza got a hardon and they went with it...

Some exciting monos have been developed since then, imocas, volvos and VG's,  Commanche... and with the full kick in the nuts of AC development who knows what would happen..

You say doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity..well you have had DoG cats, AC72's, world super league of the world 45's and AC50's...I see no evidence that sailing has changed its image, has drawn a tv audience or has generated any interest from junior sailors or indeed the average club sailor or cruiser..nor the fucking face bookers, Joe six packers it was all aimed at...

Maybe it's time to see if an AC boat that has some resemblance to the boats that we all sail can change things..anyone who has seen tp 52's in big air knows are full on, AC typo 90's in the HG just might remind everyone that sailing is techy, fast and fun, something that in their dreams they could see themselves doing....

I have met literally hundreds of young sailors in the past five years, and they are undeniably excited about foiling almost to a one.  There was one kid whose ultimate dream was 470s, but there was only one.

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5 hours ago, MidPack said:

This has been a common theme of the anti foiling cat crowd, but I don't get it. While Joe or Jane couldn't handle a foiling cat, they couldn't begin to handle a J/Class, 12m, IACC or a Dali foiled mono. Maybe they mistakely think they could?

And foiling cats are to the boats Joe and Jane sail as F1 race cars are to the cars Joe and Jane drive. Not sure why the pinnacle of sailing competition should be in boats Joe and Jane relate to any more than F1 should be run in Toyota Camry's or even Porsche 911 GT2 RS's.

I believe foiling cats are better for the sport, but I may well be wrong. Monohulls have failed to bring new blood to the sport for decades, and it's much too early to conclude foiling won't do better. But maybe nothing can overcome the cost, time, effort barriers and the sport is doomed to become a niche sport like polo and equestrian. We can all cite facts (and ignore others) that suit our POV, though none of us can prove our POV, and few if any if us know better than the folks making the decisions. I don't presume to know better. Time will tell...eventually.

Looking forward to RNZYS putting us out of our misery. I'll enjoy the next AC unless it's a displacement monohull.

 

Can I ask why F1 is so often used as an analogy as if it's a success? Motor racing in places like the UK seems to have fewer competitors than sailboat racing or cycling (official figures from RYA, British Cycling and the Motor Sports Association UK) so why keep on bringing it up as if it's a success story? Even the head of the Motor Sports Association says that F1's image is a handicap for motor racing so why assume a similar image would be good for sailing?

John and Jane Doe CAN sail a 12 Metre pretty easily - they aren't that hard. In contrast we are getting the world's best sailors say that they are struggling with AC50s. That's a massive difference. And John and Jane will have to spend a lot more for foils than for a seahugging boat - check the cost of even the cheap ones like the alloy Glide Free ones for Lasers. As you say, cost and time are barriers so why make them higher barriers?

You keep on saying that everyone quotes facts, but after doing a search on your post I can only find a single piece of quantifiable data in your posts. That was an interesting chart in the C3 thread, in which you brought up some good points. However, that search also showed that you claimed that windsurfng was growing. Other sources (such as the recent Thomas and Potts paper in "Sport, Business and Management: An International Journal") say it's down by 90% and that the problem is that it became too obsessed with high performance. The same is said by people like the head of the largest manufacturer and many other people in the industry. That's an excellent example of the pitfalls of promoting high performance instead of accessible fun.

While you keep on saying that nothing can prove our points of view, if we use actual data we can get a pretty good idea of the probable effects of developments. For example, you say it's "much too early to see if foiling won't do better". But the facts can give us some guidance. Modern foiling is now well over a decade old. In that time, judging from ISAF and industry reports, there have been roughly around 1500 foilers built.  Compare that to other emerging areas. Within a decade of windsurfing being invented, there were 30,000 windsurfers being built each year and when the sport was 15 years old there were 80,000 per year in Germany alone (NYT, Boards Magazine and Wind magazine figures). Outside magazine claimed 80,000 kites were being sold each year when that sport was 8 years old.  The J/24 alone sold faster in its first decade than the entire discipline of foiling boats. The RS Aero alone is selling more than all the foilers combined.

None of this is denigrating foilers or cats - it's trying to point out the reality. High performance craft are always just a minority interest and they need a strong population of other craft alongside them. Supporting the popular craft will help the extreme ones but the opposite doesn't seem to apply.

Sadly, there seems to be no evidence that those making the decisions know better, insofar as the effect of the AC on the wider sport goes. Not one person ever seems to have mentioned any independent study on the AC and its general effect on the sport. If they are better informed then why not tell us? If they are better informed then why did they get 4 entries in the first cat AC instead of the 16 or so they were forecasting?

 

 

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I have met literally hundreds of young sailors in the past five years, and they are undeniably excited about foiling almost to a one.  There was one kid whose ultimate dream was 470s, but there was only one.

 

29 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I have met literally hundreds of young sailors in the past five years, and they are undeniably excited about foiling almost to a one.  There was one kid whose ultimate dream was 470s, but there was only one.

Of course you have.....how many get to do it?

I bet you never met one who got off on Commanche or Hugo Boss...or the Volvos...

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31 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I have met literally hundreds of young sailors in the past five years, and they are undeniably excited about foiling almost to a one.  There was one kid whose ultimate dream was 470s, but there was only one.

So what's happening to them? There are 70 As and 150 Moths being sold per year. Flying Phantom claimed 100 or 200 boats sold in three years.

Even if every one of those boats was being sold to a kid, most of those hundreds must be dropping out of the sport.

 

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For the benefit of those who have not sailed in the Hauraki Gulf some facts might help ..

Wind Strength .. Much the same as Bermuda ranging from too little to too much.

Wave size .. Depends on wind direction .. Strong winds from the NE compares the Perth .. light winds from SW compares to Bermuda.

Ideal boat for a regatta shown on TV .. there isn't one but if conditions behave a foiling cat is probably the best option because ETNZ showed that their AC72 could handle 30 knots NE and the AC50's were able to stay on their foils in the minimum wind strength.

I would expect that something like the AC62's could be developed to cope with the widest range of conditions that the Gulf is likely to throw up with perhaps two wing sizes to reduce the chance to pitch pole in heavy going and being able to maintain flight in the lighter conditions.

If we are sailing in Perth like conditions something like the Volvo would look more spectacular on TV but if they have to tack or gybe in lighter air the foiling cats look much better.

 

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Listen to the interview.  He don't give a shit about that.  If he stayed in a monohull AC, it would only because it was technically interesting and potentially fast.

I listened to the interview and I concede that aside from the intro, you did a great job.

But do I believe everything he said? Nope. Aside from that, I would imagine the rush and prestige of the cup would be hard to kick even if it's not held in the boat of your choosing. 

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" For the benefit of those who have not sailed in the Hauraki Gulf some facts might help" .

 

So variable then. What are the averages like in the summer?

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I'm probably going to get laughed at but personally I think TP52's would be good for both the cup and sailing.

 There is nothing in the cup charter I'm sure that says the AC has to be big, fanciful boats beyond the ego's of those financing it.  TP's are an established mature rule, exciting boats to sail and watch, have an exisiting stable and circuit allowing a signicantly lower entry point to field a country team.   Boats would have an immediate life beyond the AC, and any advancements the big budget AC team's cook up would have immediate trickle down.

But that's just me

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5 hours ago, mako23 said:

If the rumours are true, the price for Luna Rossa help to ETNZ was that Luna Rossa gets to select the boat. You dont think all that help comes for free

If I was LE that would see you in court for preagreement so fast your feet wouldn't touch the ground.

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5 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It makes sense, but they will have to draw the crowds.

A mono will make an excellent opportunity for another event with world fastest foilers.

Tornado-cat I totally agree with all your sentiments about whats best for the cup. As an experienced poster I'm sure your not interested in making posts that are hyperbole or inflammatory.  Its a rather unusual situation were their is a possibility that the cup holder doesn't get to make most of the calls. We know for a fact that Luna Ross and ETNZ made a deal. Heck even key Luna Ross staff were working inside ETNZ.  To the what extent this deal effects the future, is any ones guess. I wouldn't be surprised if only a few key people in ETNZ know the exact deal hashed out. One thing for certain I don't know the deal. 

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On 11.7.2017 at 4:42 AM, The Jay said:

Exhibit B -  Third highest ratings out of Olympic sports, behind gymnastics and track and field. Five or six knots top speed. A sport in which the legends use no kit, and can be beaten by teenage girls using equipment that many people use at the beach (swim fins).

images.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_swimming

Short course Men 50 m freestyle 20.26 s => 50 m/20.26 s = 2.4679 m/s = 8884.5 m/h = 4.797  knots

Long course  Men 50 m freestyle 20.91 s => 50 m/20.91 s = 2.3912 m/s = 8608.3 m/h = 4.648  knots

Are you sure top speeds are that much faster than average speeds on just one pool length?

I find that very surprising, got any source you could link?

 

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8 minutes ago, rgeek said:

If I was LE that would see you in court for preagreement so fast your feet wouldn't touch the ground.

You mean versus having all the challengers sign a document in London months before the AC even starts attempting to legally bind them into an agreement about the next cups should they win...

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2 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_swimming

Short course Men 50 m freestyle 20.26 s => 50 m/20.26 s = 2.4679 m/s = 8884.5 m/h = 4.797  knots

Long course  Men 50 m freestyle 20.91 s => 50 m/20.91 s = 2.3912 m/s = 8608.3 m/h = 4.648  knots

Are you sure top speeds are that much faster than average speeds on just one pool length?

I find that very surprising, got any source you could link?

 

I was chucking in a bit extra for safety in case someone argued that there may be a bit of extra ooomph just after the dive.  :-)

 

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1 minute ago, Boybland said:

You mean versus having all the challengers sign a document in London months before the AC even starts attempting to legally bind them into an agreement about the next cups should they win...

Touche!

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10 minutes ago, rgeek said:

If I was LE that would see you in court for preagreement so fast your feet wouldn't touch the ground.

Were in the deed of gift does it ban preagreement

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1 minute ago, mako23 said:

Were in the deed of gift does it ban preagreement

In the last couple of sentences. I'll leave others to argue that one. It's a pretty decent argument at that, even if it has been routinely ignored for most of Cup history.

The difference between the LA and a NZ/LR pack would be who would likely be penalised in the event of a adverse finding. Either they find another CoR and the things shown to be preagreed and banned or the Cup goes back to GGYC.

 

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15 minutes ago, Boybland said:

You mean versus having all the challengers sign a document in London months before the AC even starts attempting to legally bind them into an agreement about the next cups should they win...

sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

anyone who gets all up in arms about the LA can't then get smart about LR stitching up the terms for the next match

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24 minutes ago, rgeek said:

If I was LE that would see you in court for preagreement so fast your feet wouldn't touch the ground.

Care to point our where in the DoG it says a challenger can't make a pre-arrangement with a 3rd party who isn't involved with the current challenge?

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1 minute ago, dogwatch said:

Care to point our where in the DoG it says a challenger can't make a pre-arrangement with a 3rd party who isn't involved with the current challenge?

How about this?

LR was involved with the current challenge. They where part of ETNZ. So you could just strike out the NZ victory all together and the Cup goes back to GGYC.

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Oh boy,we are short of real news, aren't we,

Fuck me, even work is more interesting than considering an argument as tenuous as that.

 

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1 minute ago, rgeek said:

How about this?

LR was involved with the current challenge. They where part of ETNZ. So you could just strike out the NZ victory all together and the Cup goes back to GGYC.

Ummm what the fuck?

Practically every CoR in the last 20 odd years has been a failed challenger from the previous cup.

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