hoppy

Get real, the America's cup is long dead

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Whilst the cat racing is certainly entertaining, especially for people with short attention spans, it is not the real America's cup.

The true America's cup is dead and it has been dead since the 26th of September 1983. The AC was 100% about beating the New York Yacht Club.

Personally, I think that actual AC trophy should be sitting alongside Australia II in the maritime museum in Fremantle and a new trophy and new competition name given to the races since 1983.

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Probably.

If it's truly about the sailing, they could create a new race and it'd be fine.  They could have more organized rules, etc.  I wonder if the Extreme Sailing Series is making any money.

Just because it's an old trophy doesn't mean it's a significant one.

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So the AC is not significant? What the fuck are you wasting your time here for?

1851 - 2017. Pretty significant I'd say.

 

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34 minutes ago, Azure said:

Probably.

If it's truly about the sailing, they could create a new race and it'd be fine.  They could have more organized rules, etc.  I wonder if the Extreme Sailing Series is making any money.

Just because it's an old trophy doesn't mean it's a significant one.

Isn't the ESS partly backed by EB? Anyways I think their model is kind of bringing the action to corporate customers and other VIP guests. Lot's of action, but not necessarily very interesting sailing.  

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

1851 - 2017. Pretty significant I'd say.

This illustrates my point. Old doesn't equal amazing.  "The oldest trophy in sports" is a trivia question, but not much more.

It's fun to watch the sailing, but the bulk of the money comes from billionaire's egos, not broad appeal.

If the format was actually interesting, it could stand on its own merit without the history. And you could refine the protocol without being encumbered by the deed of gift.

I agree with OP.  It seems the appeal of AC was trying to break the winning streak of NYYC

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45 minutes ago, Azure said:

This illustrates my point. Old doesn't equal amazing.  "The oldest trophy in sports" is a trivia question, but not much more.

It's fun to watch the sailing, but the bulk of the money comes from billionaire's egos, not broad appeal.

If the format was actually interesting, it could stand on its own merit without the history. And you could refine the protocol without being encumbered by the deed of gift.

I agree with OP.  It seems the appeal of AC was trying to break the winning streak of NYYC

It would seem you are making a common error in your judgement. The cup can stand on its own and has done for a long time. You complain that the bulk of the money comes from billionaires egos. Here you are correct, that is the basis for the cup. As pissing competition between fuck off rich assholes that want bragging rights in whatever bar these folks turn up in for a few snifters. The fact that those way down the rung get to see it is of no real concern for them.

It is those that want to change it into something that is designed for the masses and sailors that are killing the cup. As you pointed out, you could refine the idea and start something new without all the DoG crap to slow you up, no problem with this, just stop calling it the AC. If there are no egos around to challenge then it just waits, that is how it is supposed to work. Not have to ensure that the knobends of the world get to have a redbull type regatta to entertain them as they sit on their couch moaning about shit every 2 years.

 

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8 hours ago, hoppy said:

Whilst the cat racing is certainly entertaining, especially for people with short attention spans, it is not the real America's cup.

The true America's cup is dead and it has been dead since the 26th of September 1983. The AC was 100% about beating the New York Yacht Club.

Personally, I think that actual AC trophy should be sitting alongside Australia II in the maritime museum in Fremantle and a new trophy and new competition name given to the races since 1983.

That you Jimmy ??

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

It would seem you are making a common error in your judgement. The cup can stand on its own and has done for a long time. You complain that the bulk of the money comes from billionaires egos. Here you are correct, that is the basis for the cup. As pissing competition between fuck off rich assholes that want bragging rights in whatever bar these folks turn up in for a few snifters. The fact that those way down the rung get to see it is of no real concern for them.

It is those that want to change it into something that is designed for the masses and sailors that are killing the cup. As you pointed out, you could refine the idea and start something new without all the DoG crap to slow you up, no problem with this, just stop calling it the AC. If there are no egos around to challenge then it just waits, that is how it is supposed to work. Not have to ensure that the knobends of the world get to have a redbull type regatta to entertain them as they sit on their couch moaning about shit every 2 years.

 

Ironically, I think  you're making the assumption that I'm arguing DoG versus ESS format.  And that's where I think OP has added something new to the discussion.

We agree on many things:

  1. Don't turn AC into a one-design. We have a million of those.
  2. Leave it for the rich guys to measure their dicks.
  3. No one cares about internet opinions when you have a billion dollars.

Where we disagree is where OP added something new.  I think LE is the first billionaire since 1983 that realized he won a trophy that no other "fuck off rich asshole" wants.  So he tried to make it something new and more appealing, and realized the luster is gone.  It's kinda like the pretentious nightclub wannabe that finally gets into the trendy club right as everyone else stops going there.

LE tried to make it more "accessible."  That doesn't sound like the war cry of a "fuck off rich asshole." 

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Perhaps the problem is Larry. There are certainly plenty of stories around that he is a complete bastard to deal with. There are certainly plenty of rich folk playing in the sailing world, look at the number of J's around now. So maybe the billionaires aren't to interested in rolling around in the mud with an asshole like Larry. If this is the case then the only way for Larry not to feel like Nigel no mates, was to lower the bar and try and act like this is what he wanted all the time.

I guess the telling fact will be if any of these rich boys turn up now that Larry has become just another challenger, something he has never actually been any good at in the past, if he bothers to return.

The other thing that may well be putting these rich boys off is that with something like a J you can take the helm and show off in front of your other rich mates. Paying squillions for a boat you can never sail on must be a bit off putting.

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25 minutes ago, Gissie said:

...and show off in front of your other rich mates. Paying squillions for a boat you can never sail on must be a bit off putting.

The answer was right under my nose and I didn't see it.

 

Or maybe the Kiwis will make it something new and more benevolent and it'll turn into a new concept.

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I was hoping for Larry to win the DOG challenge to get rid of EB, and the Kiwis to win in San Francisco to get rid of Larry.

It happened a cycle late.

Hopefully the next iteration will be something new that requires more crew work than pumping hydraulic fluid and more tactics than sailing from boundary to boundary.

God, I sound old.

GET OFF MY LAWN!

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5 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

So the AC is not significant? What the fuck are you wasting your time here for?

1851 - 2017. Pretty significant I'd say.

 

1851 - 1983 was significant

There will only be one challenger victory that will be remembered for the racing. 

It does not matter how many times the Kiwi's will win and retain the cup, it's the Aussies who had the only AC victory that matters.

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4 hours ago, Azure said:

I agree with OP.  It seems the appeal of AC was trying to break the winning streak of NYYC

So The Cup will hold much more appeal once RNZYS hold it for the upcoming 150 years? ;)

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7 minutes ago, hoppy said:

1851 - 1983 was significant

There will only be one challenger victory that will be remembered for the racing. 

It does not matter how many times the Kiwi's will win and retain the cup, it's the Aussies who had the only AC victory that matters.

Fuck off with that shit. Just because you've done sweet fuck all in the cup since 83, don't try to diminish NZ achievements.arsehole.

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Just now, Horn Rock said:

Fuck off with that shit. Just because you've done sweet fuck all in the cup since 83, don't try to diminish NZ achievements.arsehole.

We've don't fuck all because we did the hard work leading yup to 1983 and lost interest. Where were the Kiwi's when the AC was a real challenge, tucked up in bed after a good shagging session with your favorite sheep? 

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7 minutes ago, hoppy said:

We've don't fuck all because we did the hard work leading yup to 1983 and lost interest. Where were the Kiwi's when the AC was a real challenge, tucked up in bed after a good shagging session with your favorite sheep? 

Great retort dick face. Aussies lost interest because apart from One Aus you've not looked remotely competitive - in fact Aussie campaigns have been embarrassing - Steak'n Kidney, Aus III/IV, Kookaburra, were all shitfull efforts. Face it, you're jealous that NZ is a major force in the America's Cup, and you guys are nothing....nix......diddly fucking squat.

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11 minutes ago, hoppy said:

We've don't fuck all because we did the hard work leading yup to 1983 and lost interest. Where were the Kiwi's when the AC was a real challenge, tucked up in bed after a good shagging session with your favorite sheep? 

 

1 minute ago, Horn Rock said:

Great retort dick face. Aussies lost interest because apart from One Aus you've not looked remotely competitive - in fact Aussie campaigns have been embarrassing - Steak'n Kidney, Aus III/IV, Kookaburra, were all shitfull efforts. Face it, you're jealous that NZ is a major force in the America's Cup, and you guys are nothing....nix......diddly fucking squat.

I think he's mostly just trolling you in good fun?

But I do think there's a little truth to it.

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4 minutes ago, Azure said:

 

I think he's mostly just trolling you in good fun?

But I do think there's a little truth to it.

Aussies effort in 83 was fantastic - no denying that - and history will record it as a very significant event in the Cup. The event is on going though, the pinnacle of sailing and NZ and NZers have been dominant in the Cup ever since.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Aussies effort in 83 was fantastic - no denying that - and history will record it as a very significant event in the Cup. The event is on going though, the pinnacle of sailing and NZ and NZers have been dominant in the Cup ever since.

Aren't they the only team to have lost the cup twice.

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2 hours ago, hoppy said:

1851 - 1983 was significant

There will only be one challenger victory that will be remembered for the racing. 

It does not matter how many times the Kiwi's will win and retain the cup, it's the Aussies who had the only AC victory that matters.

Haw, haw haw. Spoken like an Australian. All mouth and no trousers. Get off your arse and off your billionaires back and come over with a Challenge.

We already know about ya mouth. Show us what you got on the water. ;)

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14 hours ago, hoppy said:

Whilst the cat racing is certainly entertaining, especially for people with short attention spans, it is not the real America's cup.

The true America's cup is dead and it has been dead since the 26th of September 1983. The AC was 100% about beating the New York Yacht Club.

Personally, I think that actual AC trophy should be sitting alongside Australia II in the maritime museum in Fremantle and a new trophy and new competition name given to the races since 1983.

This Cup is donated upon the condition that it shall be preserved as a perpetual challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries.

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3 hours ago, hoppy said:

We've don't fuck all because we did the hard work leading yup to 1983 and lost interest. Where were the Kiwi's when the AC was a real challenge, tucked up in bed after a good shagging session with your favorite sheep? 

Hey fuck head, great that you guys won it in 1983, but how'd the defence turn out for you? Oh that's right, got a right ass fucking from DC, well done, you showed everyone how good you are! Fuck off and rewatch your 1983 triumphant while we celebrate in the present and future. The AC is alive and well in our little corner of the world, perhaps you guys might try and win it again....good luck fuckwit!

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1 hour ago, trt131 said:

Aren't they the only team to have lost the cup twice.

Who, NZ? No.  Australia, Alinghi, and NZ have lost it once each, America 3 times now.

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4 hours ago, VladTheImpaler said:

I was hoping for Larry to win the DOG challenge to get rid of EB, and the Kiwis to win in San Francisco to get rid of Larry.

It happened a cycle late.

Hopefully the next iteration will be something new that requires more crew work than pumping hydraulic fluid and more tactics than sailing from boundary to boundary.

God, I sound old.

GET OFF MY LAWN!

Same... on all fronts...

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4 hours ago, hoppy said:

We've don't fuck all because we did the hard work leading yup to 1983 and lost interest. Where were the Kiwi's when the AC was a real challenge, tucked up in bed after a good shagging session with your favorite sheep? 

The Aussies did not lose interest after '83. They had a few more goes at it, notoriously poor efforts conceived largely to enrich those who sold the package to once benevolent sponsors.

The bridges were burned and it probably wont be happening in this country (Aus) again any time soon, even with the Cup tantalizingly close, just across the ditch in Auckland. Aus corporate sponsors operate on the once bitten, never again, fuck off basis.

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29 minutes ago, Last Post said:

The Aussies did not lose interest after '83. They had a few more goes at it, notoriously poor efforts conceived largely to enrich those who sold the package to once benevolent sponsors.

The bridges were burned and it probably wont be happening in this country (Aus) again any time soon, even with the Cup tantalizingly close, just across the ditch in Auckland. Aus corporate sponsors operate on the once bitten, never again, fuck off basis.

Disagree. Bertrand has said he wants to challenge and I reckon he will be able to raise the funds to give it a shot.  He is AC royalty after all.

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5 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Disagree. Bertrand has said he wants to challenge and I reckon he will be able to raise the funds to give it a shot.  He is AC royalty after all.

Hmmm, lets see how far that goes.

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Just now, Last Post said:

Hmmm, lets see how far that goes.

Well I have my fingers crossed. It'd be nice to see you ockers back in the cup. 

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Well I have my fingers crossed. It'd be nice to see you ockers back in the cup. 

Only to whip their sorry banana boat arses again. 

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

Only to whip their sorry banana boat arses again. 

Well duh!

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Would love to see Aussie in the cup. It would generate interest here and perhaps we'd see a bit more coverage. Berts is the man to do it. Put Slingers on the helm and build a team  around him. The cheeky Ranga could coach it. Aussie should request a boat with movable ballast and get Gina Rhinehart involved.

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17 hours ago, hoppy said:

 The AC was 100% about beating the New York Yacht Club.

 

Was isn't is.

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3 hours ago, mikewnz said:

Who, NZ? No.  Australia, Alinghi, and NZ have lost it once each, America 3 times now.

Dont forget Fay's attempt.  He was actually awarded the cup through the courts only to have it taken off him again some time later by the appeal courts.  So NZ have lost it twice.

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4 hours ago, rgeek said:

I'd go for 1964 (the first challenger series)  as the year he AC died.

Because it is the last time the poms raced the yanks in an attempt to win their trophy back? Fair enough...

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Because ever since then it's been something other than a defense in response to a challenge.

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13 hours ago, Gissie said:

Perhaps the problem is Larry. There are certainly plenty of stories around that he is a complete bastard to deal with. There are certainly plenty of rich folk playing in the sailing world, look at the number of J's around now. So maybe the billionaires aren't to interested in rolling around in the mud with an asshole like Larry. If this is the case then the only way for Larry not to feel like Nigel no mates, was to lower the bar and try and act like this is what he wanted all the time.

I guess the telling fact will be if any of these rich boys turn up now that Larry has become just another challenger, something he has never actually been any good at in the past, if he bothers to return.

The other thing that may well be putting these rich boys off is that with something like a J you can take the helm and show off in front of your other rich mates. Paying squillions for a boat you can never sail on must be a bit off putting.

sure there are plenty of rich people.., but very few are rich like LE is rich...

a multi-cup AC campaign like LE's could easily run to $500M or more.., of which maybe you could figure on getting half from sponsors.

that's still $250M or more, and the number of sailors who will spend that much is pretty small

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During one or more of the NBC broadcasts in the States there were Oracle commercials shown, which suggested to me that the company was supporting the AC effort to some degree; and that they may value the brand-identity association with AC racing;  and in one photo from Bermuda you could see Oracle's CMO Judy Sim (who is/was married to Ian 'Fresh' Burns) standing on a boat right next to LE. 

My guess is that like with other teams there won't be decisions made until after ETNZ firms up some decisions. With the ancillary things LE helped along (ACWS, RBYAC, Endeavor Program, etc) his ability to continue to help nurture those sorts of activities may also play a role in his outlook on continuing or not. He will want to hear and see a 'vision' he can buy into, get on board with.

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4 hours ago, rgeek said:

Because ever since then it's been something other than a defense in response to a challenge.

If you are referring to a single challenger, then wouldn't that be 1967 and Dame Pattie?

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17 hours ago, JJD said:

So The Cup will hold much more appeal once RNZYS hold it for the upcoming 150 years? ;)

I've been thinking about this. It probably is possible that a huge Australia/New Zealand rivalry over the trophy could be the best thing that's happened to the AC.

So I guess, yeah, maybe the old theme was "first one to knock off NYYC." We'll see if a new one emerges.

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3 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

 He will want to hear and see a 'vision' he can buy into, get on board with.

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'vision'. If you mean how RNZYS proceeds between now and the next cup race, I would agree.

If you mean what is the long term plan for the cup then I disagree. The whole driving force is that it potentially changes direction after each cup. There can be no real long term vision unless you want to just ditch the deed.

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Just now, Gissie said:

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'vision'. If you mean how RNZYS proceeds between now and the next cup race, I would agree.

If you mean what is the long term plan for the cup then I disagree. The whole driving force is that it potentially changes direction after each cup. There can be no real long term vision unless you want to just ditch the deed.

By the way, I have no problem with Larry staying in the cup. Oracle have been a bit assholish but that is part of being a defender if you chose to. Unless there is more definite proof of them overstepping the mark, in which case they can then fuck off.

 

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2 hours ago, Gissie said:

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'vision'. If you mean how RNZYS proceeds between now and the next cup race, I would agree.

If you mean what is the long term plan for the cup then I disagree. The whole driving force is that it potentially changes direction after each cup. There can be no real long term vision unless you want to just ditch the deed.

Yep, didn't imply how 'long' term the vision LE might prefer; was simply suggesting he will look at what ETNZ comes up with, with regard to his obvious motivation to - as he has said repeatedly - give support to the AC and to the sport of sailing in general, particularly to its future.

If the new format is designed to be more narrow-minded and/or money-grabbing, well then he's better off just building a Sailing University on Treasure Island in the SF Bay, something he has also mused about.

 

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22 hours ago, VladTheImpaler said:

I was hoping for Larry to win the DOG challenge to get rid of EB, and the Kiwis to win in San Francisco to get rid of Larry.

It happened a cycle late.

Hopefully the next iteration will be something new that requires more crew work than pumping hydraulic fluid and more tactics than sailing from boundary to boundary.

God, I sound old.

GET OFF MY LAWN!

+1

 

whilst i enjoyed this iteration........needs to be something more than pumping "oil"

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6 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

During one or more of the NBC broadcasts in the States there were Oracle commercials shown, which suggested to me that the company was supporting the AC effort to some degree; and that they may value the brand-identity association with AC racing;  and in one photo from Bermuda you could see Oracle's CMO Judy Sim (who is/was married to Ian 'Fresh' Burns) standing on a boat right next to LE. 

The boat is the first thing you see on Oracle's intranet - if you like boats that is, otherwise it's just a mess 

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I kind of see the Cup as being a bit like the Olympics. I'd be happy to see Greece handed the Olympics and be done with it, fuck moving it every 4 years. Fuck off all the screwing various countries out of dollars and leaving massive infrastructure behind that is useless for anything else. Your race will be held here, at this time of day, in these conditions, every 4 years and if you want to win it, deal with it.

Would the Cup be better off being given a permanent home? Keep all the infrastructure in the same spot, you would know what conditions to expect, you could start training whenever you wanted. The costs would be easier to forecast. The Kiwi's showed you can be late to the party and still walk away with it. Sponsors and TV broadcasters know what times it will be shown around the world so can factor that in when negotiating $$$. The winner gets to take the Cup home for display and piss drinking purposes but must be brought back to fight over it again like little kids. 

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21 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Would love to see Aussie in the cup. It would generate interest here and perhaps we'd see a bit more coverage. Berts is the man to do it. Put Slingers on the helm and build a team  around him. The cheeky Ranga could coach it. Aussie should request a boat with movable ballast and get Gina Rhinehart involved.

Who??  Does Gina have movable ballast???? :-)

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On 2017-6-29 at 1:40 PM, hoppy said:

We've don't fuck all because we did the hard work leading yup to 1983 and lost interest. Where were the Kiwi's when the AC was a real challenge, tucked up in bed after a good shagging session with your favorite sheep? 

Australia lost interest when they started building boats that broke in half and sank. Then, in traditional Aussi style, they gave up altogether. 

NZ built a boat that required blue buckets as accessories. Realising that that was poor form prompted the team to do better in the following cycles, until they cycled to victory this cycle.

Attitude, maaattteee.

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5 hours ago, Nutta said:

Australia lost interest when they started building boats that broke in half and sank. Then, in traditional Aussi style, they gave up altogether. 

Boat breaking in half is better than performing the most sensational choke in sporting history.

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Boat breaking in half is better than performing the most sensational choke in sporting history.

The difference is, we came back and redeemed ourselves, whereas Aussie sunk in San Diego and never came back - 22 years and no Aussie team in the America's cup. Why is that? A lack of talent? No courage? Does corporate Australia have no confidence to back a challenge? Where is the Aussie with the balls to have a go at winning it?

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You have a fucking nerve to say we choked when you fuckers don't even have the back-bone or gonads to mount a challenge.

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I'm proud of all the efforts that the down under teams have put into the Cup over the years. I was barracking hard for a Kiwi win at the 35th AC. 

OK, Australia has been absent with a challenger since the 90s, but it was the Aussies that pushed hard to break the England/USA domination in the AC, and challenged in 1962,'67,'70,'74,'77, '80 and 83, that was seven challenges, breaking the longest winning streak in sporting history with the win in '83. OK, so we lost the defence in '87, but we sure put in the hard work to open up the Cup for challengers from all over the world. The Kiwis have taken up the baton and run with it in the last two decades, and kudos to them for the great effort they have put in. Let's not make this an Aussie/Kiwi bashing thread, I'm just glad LE was beaten, and especially glad that it was the Kiwis who did it to him. Now I'm looking forward to a fair and level playing field now that the Cup is back down under.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

You have a fucking nerve to say we choked when you fuckers don't even have the back-bone or gonads to mount a challenge.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/sport/americas-cup-2013-biggest-choke-in-nz-sport-2013092316

Your own media thought you choked in 2013

Why should we mount another challenge? We won the AC when it was an important yachting trophy. Now that the euphoria of 83 is long gone, we have quit wasting money on an also ran trophy hunt.

Winning now is like going sloppy seconds at a gang bang. 

I'd rather an Aussie rich git to mount a challenge for the VOR or commission a brand new Maxi 100 to take on WO IX, Comanche etc... Hmmm a J boat with a KA sail number, that would be great...

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Ah now. Australia was still a colony back when the AC was a real challenge. All Brits together.

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1 hour ago, rgeek said:

Ah now. Australia was still a colony back when the AC was a real challenge. All Brits together.

I suppose the NYYC did make it easier for us by removing the requirement to sail to the race from home :)

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Is this is not the supposed "Death" of the America's Cup thread, there could be a could of dates.

Someone state it was 83' when the Aussies won it.  I disagree for the spirit of the CUp ensued when Dennis Conner when down and won it back.

Some state it was in 88' when Connor basically cheated and had the courts back it up.  Arguing that the waterline length of a cat equals that of a monohull was embarrassing.  It was also when the door was opened for multihulls and wings.

Now me, the supposed death of the AC was the first time a corporate logo was put on a boat.  In the 150 years to that point, it was a race made for rich people, but Lipton did not have to splash his logo all over the boat.  When they started to call the boats Oracle, Alinghi, Luna Rosa, they took the heart out and reduced the nationality of the event.  It should have been rechristened the Corporate Cup.  The soul of the AC was ripped out when the event felt the need to have stored power, made ridiculous in this last event with crew pumping pedals around the course.  Push a button, step on a pedal.

Still, even with that it could come back.  The America's Cup was not a race of extremes.  As covered on the front page of Sailing Anarchy, the AC was not even the bleeding edge of technology, they just borrowed from existing ideas.  It was about boat building and design for sure, but what it was about, was yachtsman style sailing.  it was sailing in a large range of conditions, not some limit in case the boat breaks.

The Cup stood for 20 years unchallenged till the late 50s.  After the J's it got too costly so time went by, and eventually the 12's were introduced to get folks back into the game.  Me, I'd like NZ to honor that history.  A history of a yacht race, not some flash in the pan speed fest in a "Stadium" on flat water.  The America's Cup can live if NZ goes back to a policy of no sponsor logos on the boat, some nationality requirements so when someone say "hey look at that Japanese boat go", the camera is not panning over a sea of white anglo humans.

The America's Cup was not designed to be a series, it was designed to be a challenge as well as a showcase of talent.  PB is praised as this amazing sailor, but till he helms a VO65 powered up in the SO to a podium finish, he's a kid who pushes buttons and lives in a niche skillset.  If the Cup sat for years again I'd be okay with that since there is enough sailing to watch.

So, the America's Cup died when Russell Coutts took over with LE and took it from a prestigious yachtsman event to a game where they always needed to win and make money at the same time.

Edited by bucc5062
editing

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Or you could say they took at elitist establishment carry on and tried to put it in the hands of the talent on, if not egalitarian, then at least meritocratic basis.

Now obviously that cheapened the whole thing in the eyes of some and they put their resources into backing the most egalitarian team of them all. Said team is said to have signed up to this Faustian pact in order to stay alive and ultimately to win. In winning will they take the CUp will they end up taking it away from the values people appreciate most in them?

It's a challenge competition between clubs. Who says those clubs have to pwned by the money?

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30 minutes ago, rgeek said:

Or you could say they took at elitist establishment carry on and tried to put it in the hands of the talent on, if not egalitarian, then at least meritocratic basis.

Now obviously that cheapened the whole thing in the eyes of some and they put their resources into backing the most egalitarian team of them all. Said team is said to have signed up to this Faustian pact in order to stay alive and ultimately to win. In winning will they take the CUp will they end up taking it away from the values people appreciate most in them?

It's a challenge competition between clubs. Who says those clubs have to pwned by the money?

Say what?

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7 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

Is this is not the supposed "Death" of the America's Cup thread, there could be a could of dates.

Someone state it was 83' when the Aussies won it.  I disagree for the spirit of the CUp ensued when Dennis Conner when down and won it back.

Some state it was in 88' when Connor basically cheated and had the courts back it up.  Arguing that the waterline length of a cat equals that of a monohull was embarrassing.  It was also when the door was opened for multihulls and wings.

Now me, the supposed death of the AC was the first time a corporate logo was put on a boat.  In the 150 years to that point, it was a race made for rich people, but Lipton did not have to splash his logo all over the boat.  When they started to call the boats Oracle, Alinghi, Luna Rosa, they took the heart out and reduced the nationality of the event.  It should have been rechristened the Corporate Cup.  The soul of the AC was ripped out when the event felt the need to have stored power, made ridiculous in this last event with crew pumping pedals around the course.  Push a button, step on a pedal.

Still, even with that it could come back.  The America's Cup was not a race of extremes.  As covered on the front page of Sailing Anarchy, the AC was not even the bleeding edge of technology, they just borrowed from existing ideas.  It was about boat building and design for sure, but what it was about, was yachtsman style sailing.  it was sailing in a large range of conditions, not some limit in case the boat breaks.

The Cup stood for 20 years unchallenged till the late 50s.  After the J's it got too costly so time went by, and eventually the 12's were introduced to get folks back into the game.  Me, I'd like NZ to honor that history.  A history of a yacht race, not some flash in the pan speed fest in a "Stadium" on flat water.  The America's Cup can live if NZ goes back to a policy of no sponsor logos on the boat, some nationality requirements so when someone say "hey look at that Japanese boat go", the camera is not panning over a sea of white anglo humans.

The America's Cup was not designed to be a series, it was designed to be a challenge as well as a showcase of talent.  PB is praised as this amazing sailor, but till he helms a VO65 powered up in the SO to a podium finish, he's a kid who pushes buttons and lives in a niche skillset.  If the Cup sat for years again I'd be okay with that since there is enough sailing to watch.

So, the America's Cup died when Russell Coutts took over with LE and took it from a prestigious yachtsman event to a game where they always needed to win and make money at the same time.

Well put. The trying to force it to make money is just the final nail.

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8 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

So, the America's Cup died when Russell Coutts took over with LE and took it from a prestigious yachtsman event to a game where they always needed to win and make money at the same time.

Maybe that was the symptom more than the cause.

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The America's Cup is not dead but on life support. It is up to RNZYS to shock it back to life. Bringing it back to normal will help in the recovery.

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2 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

The America's Cup is not dead but on life support. It is up to RNZYS to shock it back to life. Bringing it back to normal will help in the recovery.

That is what we will see.  Myself, I am not against multi's in the right venue, but the AC is not that.  Time will tell.

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To make money? If it's to make money for teams consisting of the best sailors in order for them to compete against each other with out being tied up in the whims of fickle owners, broadcast to the public at large, what's so wrong with that? There's nothing in the DoG that is against that.

For all its obvious faults -- and not least the refusal to go to Auckland -- that's the basic agenda behind the London agreement. Ironically that's been set aside thanks to a win in no small part thanks to the backing of Luna Rossa; who of all the teams circling AC35 where the most owner driven. Having opened the door for it to happen they got completely fucked over no doubt, but they also exited the Cup making a lot of noise about the event having been cheapened due to commercialism. Remember that Vuitton sponsorship only came back to the Cup when ACEA abandoned any pretence at popularism and went back to focusing on VIP value.

We're waiting to see what comes next, and what influence the deal struck over funding for ETNZ in AC35 will have.

There's nothing in the DoG to say that the AC has to be driven by billionaire owners. As has been posted else where the AC was viewed as a contest between the maritime industries of different nations, channeled through clubs. In the J Class and 12 Meter eras the boats where used for other racing (increasingly less so over the years with the 12s I guess), even the boats before the J's used to get an outing. They used the IACC for several 'gated community' events. Why did everyone suddenly go bat shit about using them for what ever purpose in between Cups? Just because they used Americas Cup in the title?

 

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On 2017-6-30 at 0:25 PM, ezyb said:

The boat is the first thing you see on Oracle's intranet - if you like boats that is, otherwise it's just a mess 

Omg you poor bastard! You don't work for Orifice do you? 

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1 hour ago, rgeek said:

As has been posted else where the AC was viewed as a contest between the maritime industries of different nations, channeled through clubs.

You have some good points, but I don't think a sailboat race is actually a valid indicator of maritime technology and might. I think it's mostly just viewed as a sailboat race between rich dudes.

 

USS-Harry-S-Truman.jpg.f97716e097302a8dd2159b90d516fd14.jpg

Above:  USS Harry S Truman

Below: HMNZN Canterbury

HMNZS-Canterbury.jpg.bf9d7d251a189bef1d78d7a17df01f62.jpg

 

 

A similar argument is sometimes made in soccer.

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Agreed and, particularly on the challenger side, it always has been.

Very similar dynamics in soccer where Italian teams have the image of being the play thing of wealthy vs a more commercial approach in England. It's an argument that's now shot to pieces by US, Russian and now Middle Eastern involvement in the Premiership where the owners have their cake (clubs as their play thing) with out having to pay for it.

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On 7/1/2017 at 1:08 AM, jaysper said:

Omg you poor bastard! You don't work for Orifice do you? 

No, but a family member does and they asked me if I knew what "this stupid boat looking thing" on the portal landing page was

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On 2017-7-1 at 4:04 PM, Azure said:

 

You have some good points, but I don't think a sailboat race is actually a valid indicator of maritime technology and might. I think it's mostly just viewed as a sailboat race between rich dudes.

 

USS-Harry-S-Truman.jpg.f97716e097302a8dd2159b90d516fd14.jpg

Above:  USS Harry S Truman

Below: HMNZN Canterbury

HMNZS-Canterbury.jpg.bf9d7d251a189bef1d78d7a17df01f62.jpg

 

 

A similar argument is sometimes made in soccer.

Nice point, and just to underline it the NZ warship was built in Holland.

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26 minutes ago, The Jay said:

Nice point, and just to underline it the NZ warship was built in Holland.

If you REALLY want to underline it, you should point out that it is not actually a military ship at all but rather a commercial ferry painted grey with some "shooty bits" bolted on.

But still, would kick the Truman's arse though right? :D

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38 minutes ago, jaysper said:

If you REALLY want to underline it, you should point out that it is not actually a military ship at all but rather a commercial ferry painted grey with some "shooty bits" bolted on.

But still, would kick the Truman's arse though right? :D

Only if the Truman was being run by Aussies.  :-)

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Seriously, though, in the early days of the AC sailing WAS a legitimate display of technology, and racing was a valid way of getting rich guys to develop it. Chapell points out that Chesapeake fishermen took design cues from racing boats. Up till the 1870s the low fuel economy of steam power meant that even the latest ocean-going warships needed sail power to develop sufficient range. When the first AC was sailed the Royal Navy's fleet included the former yacht Waterwitch, which they bought after she out-sailed similar naval craft.

These days high speed sailcraft seem to have no relevance to national technological might. Popular sailing craft could at least help keep the population healthy, but that's not going to happen with elitist boats that are designed to be watched on TV.

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21 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Could someone please underline 'a yacht or vessel propelled by sails only' part :)

But if people ignore the "own bottom" clause then why not ignore the "propelled by sails only" part?

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The own bottom clause isn't in the deed any more. If the propelled by sails only clause was removed then the cup really would be dead as far a sailing goes. Might be some supporters for a fizz boat race but not me. 

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Could someone please underline 'a yacht or vessel propelled by sails only' part :)

You mean this from the DoG?

"...with a yacht or vessel propelled by sails only and constructed in the country to which the challenging Club belongs..."

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53 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

The own bottom clause isn't in the deed any more. If the propelled by sails only clause was removed then the cup really would be dead as far a sailing goes. Might be some supporters for a fizz boat race but not me. 

Yep, I know it was removed from the Deed nor do I want a stinkboat race. The point is that some people seem perfectly happy with removing some parts of the Deed, but then talk about the tradition of the AC and what the Cup embodies, and also want to emphasise other parts of the Deed. It seems hard to justify throwing away some clauses and then defending others because Schuyler and his team wrote them in eons ago.

 

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1 hour ago, The Jay said:

Yep, I know it was removed from the Deed nor do I want a stinkboat race. The point is that some people seem perfectly happy with removing some parts of the Deed, but then talk about the tradition of the AC and what the Cup embodies, and also want to emphasise other parts of the Deed. It seems hard to justify throwing away some clauses and then defending others because Schuyler and his team wrote them in eons ago.

 

Not really IMO. In this day and age where race boats are more like space ships than boats and are built to ultra fine tolerances, if you were to keep the "own bottom" clause, you would find that the AC would just DIE because it would be impossible to win and so nobody would bother.

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It depends on what race boats, doesn't it? Volvo boats can sail on their own bottom.  While you're right that we can't require boats to sail to the venue these days, MC could require that they be at least capable of doing it by requiring boats to be built to structural standards like the later (or all?)  J Class and all of the 12 Metres were. That would follow the clearly expressed desire of the donors and of most of the Cup's great names to make this a race for offshore capable boats.

 

This leads me to think what a missed chance the IACC boats were. If they were really intended to carry on where the 12s left off, they'd have been built to ABS or something like it, and if they'd followed the corner of the rule that some people were hoping they'd go to they'd have been like Maxi 72s. Instead we ended up with eggshell leadmines that don't seem to have inspired many people or many developments, and may have hurt the Cup and the sport in the long term.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, The Jay said:

It depends on what race boats, doesn't it? Volvo boats can sail on their own bottom.  While you're right that we can't require boats to sail to the venue these days, MC could require that they be at least capable of doing it by requiring boats to be built to structural standards like the later (or all?)  J Class and all of the 12 Metres were. That would follow the clearly expressed desire of the donors and of most of the Cup's great names to make this a race for offshore capable boats.

 

This leads me to think what a missed chance the IACC boats were. If they were really intended to carry on where the 12s left off, they'd have been built to ABS or something like it, and if they'd followed the corner of the rule that some people were hoping they'd go to they'd have been like Maxi 72s. Instead we ended up with eggshell leadmines that don't seem to have inspired many people or many developments, and may have hurt the Cup and the sport in the long term.

 

 

I think they inspired a LOT of innovation. Trouble is that none of it is really applicable to real boats because most of it was designed to "cheat" the formula. Knuckle bow, hula etc were all really innovative ideas that would have no value in a straight box rule.

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The knuckle bow was seen in Intrepid and in IOR boats. The hula? Yep, innovative but as you say, not widely applicable as it was just a measurement dodge.

Of course like any top level event there is going to be some development, but considering the resources poured in not much seems to have been done. 

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On 7/1/2017 at 0:16 AM, Rainbow Spirit said:

I'm proud of all the efforts that the down under teams have put into the Cup over the years. I was barracking hard for a Kiwi win at the 35th AC. 

OK, Australia has been absent with a challenger since the 90s, but it was the Aussies that pushed hard to break the England/USA domination in the AC, and challenged in 1962,'67,'70,'74,'77, '80 and 83, that was seven challenges, breaking the longest winning streak in sporting history with the win in '83. OK, so we lost the defence in '87, but we sure put in the hard work to open up the Cup for challengers from all over the world. The Kiwis have taken up the baton and run with it in the last two decades, and kudos to them for the great effort they have put in. Let's not make this an Aussie/Kiwi bashing thread, I'm just glad LE was beaten, and especially glad that it was the Kiwis who did it to him. Now I'm looking forward to a fair and level playing field now that the Cup is back down under.

Well said. I'm bored with the Aussie v Kiwi bashing. Unjustified and unnecessary. Hats off to both nations for all they have contributed to the sport of sailing. 

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16 minutes ago, The Jay said:

The knuckle bow was seen in Intrepid and in IOR boats. The hula? Yep, innovative but as you say, not widely applicable as it was just a measurement dodge.

Of course like any top level event there is going to be some development, but considering the resources poured in not much seems to have been done. 

Some factors in that may be the size of the boats the relative infrequency of the Cup and the infrequency with which the class changes (changes to the rules of the class to allow innovation where the designers are interested noted). 

The budgets involved clearly do have an impact on R&D tough and that has an impact on bringing technology through to the rest of the sport.

The dip in challengers we've seen for AC35 is exactly what you'd expect to see with a change in class, and a radical one at that.

Is it worth trading challenger numbers to see more innovation in the Cup? For me, yes. And for that reason I would let teams race 2 boats.

But then again I don't expect to see a close match in the final either as it's not one design and you need very comparable boats to make the racing that close.

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16 minutes ago, like said:

Well said. I'm bored with the Aussie v Kiwi bashing. Unjustified and unnecessary. Hats off to both nations for all they have contributed to the sport of sailing. 

I think there has to be SOME kiwi vs Aussie bashing otherwise we wouldn't recognize each other. 

But I agree that both countries have contributed heaps. 

I have to say that I don't understand how nz have managed to support a team all these years. Glad that it has of course. 

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People like backing winners

Even when they are loosing the Kiwis act like winners ... as in they do the things in the way a winner would. They act like they are trying to win with the confidence that they will find a way in the end.

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7 hours ago, The Jay said:

But if people ignore the "own bottom" clause then why not ignore the "propelled by sails only" part?

Because then, they wouldn't need sailors at all. Own goal much?

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