Ex-yachtie

AC36 - The Venue

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16 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

We'll see how safe these AC 75's really are BUT I guess someone needs to get hurt before common sense prevails.

SF was a really good Venue. It was because of the Artemis tragedy that the wind limits got lowered. Artemis flipped because of Mr. Juan K. and not because of the AC 72's being a dangerous boat.

 

Shame you weren't there to tell Iain 'SAFETY' Murray that. ETNZ would have won in a cake walk as they deserved to

Will the AC75's be dangerous? They will certainly be flighty and will test the crews to the max, but lets hope the inevitable crashes do not end in serious injuries.

 

14 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Well, it might not be entirely a Stadium I agree but pretty close to it. Anyways the Race Course Area is a ton better compared to 2000 & 2003 when the Races were held waaay out into the Hauraki Gulf and no one could see it unless you were on a spectator boat, no?

For once Dalts did the right thing here.

 

Auckland appreciates your insights into running an AC - will try to do better......

 

image.png.067b6982e425812be9e636f541167421.png

eight_col_VIADUCT.jpg?1498563682

 

miles out = no spectators :lol:, yeah right......

 

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20 minutes ago, nav said:

Auckland appreciates your insights into running an AC - will try to do better......

 

image.png.067b6982e425812be9e636f541167421.png

eight_col_VIADUCT.jpg?1498563682

 

miles out = no spectators :lol:, yeah right......

 

LOL, these Pictures come from the Viaduct....

You should have listened to Dalts what he said on Friday. He excatly said what I've been saying that the 2000 & 2003 AC's were in the Outer Hauraki Gulf and you basically needed a spectator boat to see the Racing Live or watch it on the Screens in the Viaduct and his goal & Defenders goal was to bring racing closer to shore so that everyone could watch :)

In 2021 you can watch it from North Head for example as the Race Course has being brought closer to shore. Based on Course Layouts we can assume that Course C will be the "Primary Course" for the PRADA Cup Final as well as the America's Cup Match.

Stop whining around!

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Wow you are really pouring it on noob, did you watch the video? I even started it at a convenient place for you...

There were probably more spectators out on those boats for any one race than the 'land based crowds' for the entire SF or Bermuda Match

Flounder on....

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1 hour ago, nav said:

Wow you are really pouring it on noob, did you watch the video? I even started it at a convenient place for you...

There were probably more spectators out on those boats for any one race than the 'land based crowds' for the entire SF or Bermuda Match

Flounder on....

And guess what: Dalton expects +300.000 People watching the Races of AC 36 in 2021 from shore and the beaches. It sure doesn't look 300K People on the Pictures you provided.

Auckland has a Population of around 1.5 Million and 1/3 of those might come out watching the Races.

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You were telling us how poor the show was in the past and that you had some light to shed, it would appear you have accepted you were mistaken and are now looking forward to an equally exciting and successful future event, well done, your faith in GD is a comfort.....

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45 minutes ago, nav said:

You were telling us how poor the show was in the past and that you had some light to shed, it would appear you have accepted you were mistaken and are now looking forward to an equally exciting and successful future event, well done, your faith in GD is a comfort.....

It was poor when the Cup Races were 10+ Miles away from Downtown Auckland in the middle of the Gulf and only people who a) Either had Boat or b) Had enough money to buy Tickets for a Spectator Boat could watch the Racing LIVE. The vast Majority was watching the Races from the Viaduct on big TV Screens. How can you grow a sport when you can't see the boats?

It got a lot better in Valencia 2007 but the best was the kind of Stadium Sailing we saw during the ACWS in 2011/2012 and 2015/2016 as well as AC 34 & 35.

For all you and barfys ranting about LE & RC you should acknowledge that not everything was bad by them but you always seem to see what you want to see which is either "Black" or "White".

Without LE & RC introducing Stadium kind of Sailing we would still be in stonetime.

In that regard Dalts &  LE, RC seem to have the same passion getting the AC more to the people which is great.

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How can you grow a sport when you can't see the boats?

The sport of sailing? The one that needs clear water and wind to be safe and enjoyable, that sport?

Hey I bet you could grow it by presenting it as a pot-luck driftathon on a building shrouded river in NY city in front of thousands of ignorant before and disillusioned afterwards 'not-a-fans'!?

Stick to your day job.....

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3 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

 

For all you and barfys ranting about LE & RC you should acknowledge that not everything was bad by them but you always seem to see what you want to see which is either "Black" or "White".

Without LE & RC introducing Stadium kind of Sailing we would still be in stonetime.

 

Quote me once mentioning LE or TE.

My point was just, as has been already well discussed before you came along, or came back, was that Auckland in 20+kt of wind plus the current delivers very different conditions than the bda lagoon.

Maybe some of the posters have not experienced it,I worked the area for5 years daily.

North head has been a vantage point for racing for years, a natural 270 degree view that a local organizer would be a fool not to utilize.

You can't give kudos to someone on the other side of the world for inventing that, sorry.

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7 minutes ago, barfy said:

Quote me once mentioning LE or TE.

My point was just, as has been already well discussed before you came along, or came back, was that Auckland in 20+kt of wind plus the current delivers very different conditions than the bda lagoon.

Maybe some of the posters have not experienced it,I worked the area for5 years daily.

North head has been a vantage point for racing for years, a natural 270 degree view that a local organizer would be a fool not to utilize.

You can't give kudos to someone on the other side of the world for inventing that, sorry.

Earlier scoffs at 'Stadium Sailing' by the likes of GD referred to inshore "beach regattas" on lagoons with a handful of VIPs/rent-a-crowds getting to cheer at a showey finish line.

Large_RG170624AmCupDay30741.thumb.jpg.e79d6099acd59b4bb91df10daab1f940.jpg

Not sailing in a significantly large gulf with high geographic vantage points for hundreds of thousands of people, for free... 

  • Stadium Sailing

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surely you jest, or troll. You can't really spout drivel like that if you have half a brain.

Have you even looked at the courses that have been published? Do you see a drawing of a floating grandstand in the middle of the fucking water?

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^^ you really are some kinda trolling sock puppet. What happened to your old profile? Too toxic? Flicked? Do tell.

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18 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

It was poor when the Cup Races were 10+ Miles away from Downtown Auckland in the middle of the Gulf and only people who a) Either had Boat or b) Had enough money to buy Tickets for a Spectator Boat could watch the Racing LIVE. The vast Majority was watching the Races from the Viaduct on big TV Screens. How can you grow a sport when you can't see the boats?

It got a lot better in Valencia 2007 but the best was the kind of Stadium Sailing we saw during the ACWS in 2011/2012 and 2015/2016 as well as AC 34 & 35.

For all you and barfys ranting about LE & RC you should acknowledge that not everything was bad by them but you always seem to see what you want to see which is either "Black" or "White".

Without LE & RC introducing Stadium kind of Sailing we would still be in stonetime.

In that regard Dalts &  LE, RC seem to have the same passion getting the AC more to the people which is great.

Yep, it was nice to be able to watch the boats and the whole course while sitting on the boulders in front of GGYC in SF. LE & RC - acknowledged. Feel better?

But claiming that these two "introduced" stadium racing? C'mon, that was surely the EXSS, at least for bigger regattas. Not to mention the WMRT that had its races super close to shore already ages ago.

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On 9/4/2018 at 2:42 PM, mfluder said:

The Coast guard also deemed the AC72's too dangerous to sail in the conditions set out in the protocol

After someone died due to an obvious design/build failure & under clear pressure from Orifice who knew they were in the shit performance wise, who had also managed to fuck up the design of their first boat & severely crashed it.

TNZ was confident they were ready for the stronger conditions & Orifice could have chosen to not race if they weren't sure they were safe.

Interesting that recent Protocol change emphasises the onus is on the competitor to determine whether the boat/conditions are safe.

 

Regarding spectating I think the only seriously practical land spectating is going to be from North Head & on course C, vast majority of racing will probably be Course A & E.

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America's Cup: Hearing for Bases takes just seven hours

by Richard Gladwell

"The Environment Court has finished a Hearing of the Resource Consent Application necessary to obtain permission to construct new America's Cup facilities in Auckland."

https://www.sail-world.com/news/209877/Americas-Cup-Planning-Hearing-finishes-early

A lot of commentary in here about base design.

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On 9/5/2018 at 11:32 PM, hoom said:

After someone died due to an obvious design/build failure & under clear pressure from Orifice who knew they were in the shit performance wise, who had also managed to fuck up the design of their first boat & severely crashed it.

TNZ was confident they were ready for the stronger conditions & Orifice could have chosen to not race if they weren't sure they were safe.

Interesting that recent Protocol change emphasises the onus is on the competitor to determine whether the boat/conditions are safe.

 

Regarding spectating I think the only seriously practical land spectating is going to be from North Head & on course C, vast majority of racing will probably be Course A & E.

Wow, some of you are off the fucking chain nuts with your bizarre theories. So now Bart died because Oracle was putting pressure on Artemis for designing a shitter?  That has got to be the most absurd logic I’ve seen yet on this forum. 

Let’s face it, both Oracle and ETNZ were lucky no one got hurt. Both teams had serious “oh shit” moments. Those boats were a bit on the edge safety-wise. I expect the AC75 to be right in that same realm. The elephant in the room is that giant foil up in the air. The digital diamond is adorable, but it doesn’t mean shit on high strung, twitchy boats. I’m pretty sure it was frowned upon to fly a hull, then land it on your opponent last go ‘round, but we all know it happened. 

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4 hours ago, Monkey said:

Wow, some of you are off the fucking chain nuts with your bizarre theories. So now Bart died because Oracle was putting pressure on Artemis for designing a shitter?  That has got to be the most absurd logic I’ve seen yet on this forum. 

Let’s face it, both Oracle and ETNZ were lucky no one got hurt. Both teams had serious “oh shit” moments. Those boats were a bit on the edge safety-wise. I expect the AC75 to be right in that same realm. The elephant in the room is that giant foil up in the air. The digital diamond is adorable, but it doesn’t mean shit on high strung, twitchy boats. I’m pretty sure it was frowned upon to fly a hull, then land it on your opponent last go ‘round, but we all know it happened. 

Bullshit. ETNZ were far from lucky. Oracle were lucky with wind limits. Dalton sums it up well in this interview. They purposely designed for the original rule which as 5 knots to 33 knots. Dalton starts addressing this issue at 2:10.

Two memorable quotes "I think that, ya know what we proved on that day was that (and, ya know, touch wood, and history may bite me  on this statement) that we can sail safely in the conditions that were set up in the protocol to race in San Francisco" and "We worked to a design brief based on the protocol, and we can sail safely in that so, don't screw us around because we're able to do it"  - turns out those statements were absolutely true for ETNZ, and perhaps they were "screwed around" in the end.

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5 hours ago, Monkey said:

Wow, some of you are off the fucking chain nuts with your bizarre theories. So now Bart died because Oracle was putting pressure on Artemis for designing a shitter?  That has got to be the most absurd logic I’ve seen yet on this forum. 

No.

 

Bart died because Artemis designed/built a shitter.

Orifice crashed & broke the boat because they designed/built a shitter.

Orifice 2nd boat was still a shitter -> started talking about needing to reduce wind limits & demanding symmetrical rudder elevators 'for safety'.

Only then the CG started getting involved.

 

ETNZ said 'Hey, wait a goddamn minute. We & LR built a flying tractor to the rules, have sailed successfully in the specified conditions. We're safe to sail, this is not a safety issue its a team specific design/build issue'

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2 hours ago, mfluder said:

Bullshit. ETNZ were far from lucky. Oracle were lucky with wind limits. Dalton sums it up well in this interview. They purposely designed for the original rule which as 5 knots to 33 knots. Dalton starts addressing this issue at 2:10.

Two memorable quotes "I think that, ya know what we proved on that day was that (and, ya know, touch wood, and history may bite me  on this statement) that we can sail safely in the conditions that were set up in the protocol to race in San Francisco" and "We worked to a design brief based on the protocol, and we can sail safely in that so, don't screw us around because we're able to do it"  - turns out those statements were absolutely true for ETNZ, and perhaps they were "screwed around" in the end.

While I accept the ETNZ and Luna Rossa had the best boats for heavy wind and big waves, the famous run in 30 knots by ETNZ in their first boat did not prove that they would have survived in those conditions if they had been racing around a course in their second boat.

When you are not racing you can pick your moment when you tack or gybe, just imagine how would you survive when rounding the top mark as a big gust hit you and the grinders had run out of puff?

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Dalts said their ac34 boat was designed for the original limits, he said the limits for the mostly od rig in 35 was too high...NO proved this by going of the track out of control near the top end.

I reckon the veteran of club med et al knows about limits. Oh, and mention isle of Man

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9 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

While I accept the ETNZ and Luna Rossa had the best boats for heavy wind and big waves, the famous run in 30 knots by ETNZ in their first boat did not prove that they would have survived in those conditions if they had been racing around a course in their second boat.

When you are not racing you can pick your moment when you tack or gybe, just imagine how would you survive when rounding the top mark as a big gust hit you and the grinders had run out of puff?

So either Dalton doesn't know what he's talking about or he's lying?

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21 minutes ago, maxmini said:

30kts ? We got this :) 

FB52B131-DC4D-4DD3-AAA7-C1EFED1DB805.jpeg

D0581CB2-69FF-43D9-9AAA-BA01F80D9DF4.jpeg

Hey, Shit happens:) 

 

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37 minutes ago, maxmini said:

30kts ? We got this :) 

FB52B131-DC4D-4DD3-AAA7-C1EFED1DB805.jpeg

D0581CB2-69FF-43D9-9AAA-BA01F80D9DF4.jpeg

FFS its a sport mate... both examples above were due to human error... ETNZ even took a dive just trying to bear off from their base at Bermuda...

There were actually more incidents in the 10-15 knot range... BA prang with ETNZ, BA prang with SBTJ, Artemis man over board, to name but a few, plus all the shit that went down during practices (maybe you weren't watching at the time)

So I guess maybe we shouldn't be sailing in 10 and above either... Nascar should be limited to 30mph, except for pit incidents happening at an even lower speed, so really they shouldn't turn the engines on... see how specious your argument is?

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2 hours ago, maxmini said:

30kts ? We got this :) 

FB52B131-DC4D-4DD3-AAA7-C1EFED1DB805.jpeg

D0581CB2-69FF-43D9-9AAA-BA01F80D9DF4.jpeg

I bet if you asked ETNZ they would still say yes to 30 knots.

 

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9 hours ago, mfluder said:

So either Dalton doesn't know what he's talking about or he's lying?

Dalton was making a point that could not be proved either way .. he's a just selling the interests of his team in accordance with true America's cup tradition.

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15 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

Dalton was making a point that could not be proved either way .. he's a just selling the interests of his team in accordance with true America's cup tradition.

pre-emptively... which is the interesting part... to what extent did he foresee what was going to happen with the wind limits...

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Ya gotta say that etnz foresaw the wind limit in Bermuda for the match, 12 kt : )

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26 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

Dalton was making a point that could not be proved either way .. he's a just selling the interests of his team in accordance with true America's cup tradition.

As Dalton also stated in the same interview, They were seeing peaks of 30 (knots) basically at sea level, so at the top of the rig, they were seeing more than that with "Big waves" and it was "Blowing Hard". Proof enough that they can sail through a system like that with minimal damage. 

In terms of racing, they also had a huge nose dive mid-race, and survived with minimal damage also, where others could not.

yandy96993.jpg

GG12-SFOOCT-08861.jpg

Two seperate consequences to a nosedive.

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2 hours ago, barfy said:

Ya gotta say that etnz foresaw the wind limit in Bermuda for the match, 12 kt : )

Wait a sec, don't the Orifice apologists claim they would have won at 15kt windspeed? :huh:

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On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 10:21 PM, hoom said:

No.

 

Bart died because Artemis designed/built a shitter.

Orifice crashed & broke the boat because they designed/built a shitter.

Orifice 2nd boat was still a shitter -> started talking about needing to reduce wind limits & demanding symmetrical rudder elevators 'for safety'.

Only then the CG started getting involved.

 

ETNZ said 'Hey, wait a goddamn minute. We & LR built a flying tractor to the rules, have sailed successfully in the specified conditions. We're safe to sail, this is not a safety issue its a team specific design/build issue'

I don't think many experts believe that the Bart incident and the Oracle Boat incident were because of designing/ building shitters at all!

Those boats were first of a kind and they were learning to sail boats that were cutting edge and they hadn't understood all the risks yet and they may have been taking chances.

They deserve more credit than that. 

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1 hour ago, Mariner said:

I don't think many experts believe that the Bart incident and the Oracle Boat incident were because of designing/ building shitters at all!

Those boats were first of a kind and they were learning to sail boats that were cutting edge and they hadn't understood all the risks yet and they may have been taking chances.

They deserve more credit than that. 

There is plenty of objective journalism looking into the Artemis situation that describe the pressure to get the boat foiling and the stress the design team were under and the multiple attempts to reengineer it for loads required for foiling.

The boat simply broke under load whilst sailing along - it wasn't a sailing error.

As a racing cat it was a good boat - as an AC foiler it was a shitter.

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56 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

There is plenty of objective journalism looking into the Artemis situation that describe the pressure to get the boat foiling and the stress the design team were under and the multiple attempts to reengineer it for loads required for foiling.

The boat simply broke under load whilst sailing along - it wasn't a sailing error.

As a racing cat it was a good boat - as an AC foiler it was a shitter.

The first Artemis AC72 was not a foiling cat. There was a structural failure of the front crossbeam. By all accounts, conditions were mid range, and they were not pushing the boat too hard.

https://www.wired.com/2013/05/americas-cup-crash/

That was a completely different situation than the capsize of OR boat one, which happened bearing off in extreme conditions - 25 kts TWS plus a 6 kt ebb tide. That was clearly pushing it, on a boat that was very fast but never especially stable - boat two benefitted from having the foils moved aft, similar to the ETNZ boat.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Mariner said:

I don't think many experts believe that the Bart incident and the Oracle Boat incident were because of designing/ building shitters at all!

Are you even serious? :huh:

 

Artemis had a completely bizzare design with obviously flawed structure, they had damage to the crossbeam, repaired twice, in the fatal capsize the beam broke about where the repairs had been and the hull broke.

The original wing was something out of '70s C class & the boat was unquestionably designed as only a semi-foiler.

 

Galloping gertie was originally designed as a semi-foiler as well with rushed & unsuccessful pre-launch conversion to full foiler, platform was floppy, hulls too low volume forward, foils in the wrong place and their structural calculations/build quality were so bad they clean broke off the main foil on first outing.

Gertie 2.0 copied ETNZ foil locations, beefed up the bow volume & improved platform stiffness but still suffered handling issues, it wasn't until after at least 2 reworks of the crossbeam/mountpoints, shortly before racing started where they actually got it up to decent rigidity & able to perform.

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Oh, did we decide that Gertie 2.0 changed mast-step location to also match ETNZ?

I remember a bunch of discussion on it but don't recall if a change was confirmed.

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