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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
daan62

another boat without a keel... (Yes, I know the story is in dutch/ designer himself most probably one of the two victims (Frans Maas(standfast)))

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I heard that Frans is one of the deceased. RIP, a great man.

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Bad news and difficult to comprehend.

Both Frans Maas & Freddy (Hall Spars) Franssens appear to have drowned in the accident.

 

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I just spoke with my father, Dick Carter, who's very much saddened by the news of Frans' passing and asked me to convey his heartfelt condolences to Frans' and Freddy's family and friends. He knows that the Breskens sailing community is a close one, and that this must be a heavy blow for them. My father said, "I owe an enormous debt to Frans, because he gave me, a beginning designer, absolute confidence that it was no big deal to build a boat, in this case, RABBIT, my first design. Frans had already built TONNERRE DE BRESKENS for Piet Vroon. I really liked TONNERRE, and so whenever I was asked a question about RABBIT's build relating to something I wasn't familiar with, I'd say, 'do it like TONNERRE!' Frans was an integral part of my design career, as he went on to build TINA and her sister ships, plus RABBIT II, RED ROOSTER and others. Frans had been building boats for Ted Hood for years, which is how I found out about the Maas yard in the first place. Frans himself was a highly knowledgeable builder, designer and offshore sailor, intelligent, modest and dedicated, who transformed the yard owned by his father, which had built fishing boats, into a yard building state-of-the-art offshore racer-cruisers. Frans had assembled a team of young, enthusiastic, specialized and highly skilled workers. It was an absolute pleasure to work with him. Whenever I wanted to make any small design adjustments, his yard was able to do so on the spot. I'm grateful that I had the opportunity to speak with Frans on the phone this past May, after fifty years or so had passed since the time of our working together. He was a great man."

 

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Fucking keels falling off is becoming almost epidemic. There is no excuse for it.

Designers better smarten up soon or government will step in.

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28 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Fucking keels falling off is becoming almost epidemic. There is no excuse for it.

Designers better smarten up soon or government will step in.

 

IMG_0084.jpg

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Very sorry to hear that.

I'd like to know what happened. Not jumping to any conclusions yet.

From FLANDERS NEWS BE:

"A sail yacht has capsized off the Ostend coast, leaving two passengers dead. One person is still missing. Three people could be saved and were taken away by helicopter.

The yacht was taking part in a race and capsized around 8:30 this morning. The accident happened some 10 miles off the Ostend coast.

Two passengers could be picked up by a dredging boat in the area. Five of the six passengers have been found, two of them passed away. One person is still missing. Three passengers were taken to the Sint-Jans Hospital; one of them is suffering from hypothermia.

A large-scale search was initiated to find the sixth victim. Various teams are taking part in the action, including Dutch crews. Because of the intervention, a demonstration in Middelkerke, where Queen Mathilde and King Filip were expected, was cancelled. A smaller demonstration exercise was held on the beach. "

 

The floor structure around the keel is not the place to save weight. Obviously. This is a current build of mine in Estonia for a Swedish client, 45' DE. Engineering by my old friend Ivan Eredevicki. I like to be conservative with these details.

ibold%20floors_zpszpqrrcue.jpg

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So sad to lose Frans Maas.  I did lots of miles with him in the late 70s and early 80s, and especially on Piet Vroon's Formidable, where Frans was a key member of our offshore crew.  A wonderful man, and a real gentleman too.  Very sad here.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Fucking keels falling off is becoming almost epidemic. There is no excuse for it.

Designers better smarten up soon or government will step in.

I agree. It's pretty ridiculous that keels are still falling off and people dying, and it's not being corrected. 

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12 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Got this from a Facebook friend who knew Freddy Franssens.

3601467131.jpg

I saw the video this frame is captured from....stomach churning....and Catherine Carters heart felt outreach....too soon for anything other than solemn respect~~~~ 

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Shocked and sad,

In the late 70's the office I worked in was inside the Maas compound, (I can still remenber  the smell of the resin from the Standfast 40 laminating). Impressive operation and impressive man, designing,, building.. a lot .. and helming to win on the water, so impressive that I did not realize he was then still in his 30's !

A great man of yachting.who deserves to be long remembered.

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My father said that when he visited Gebr. Maas in 1964 to talk to Frans about building his first design, Frans wouldn't accept a deposit on the boat, even after Dad kept insisting and had his checkbook open. "Not necessary", Frans kept repeating. As P_Wop said, a true gent.

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2 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

 

Very sorry to hear that.

I'd like to know what happened. Not jumping to any conclusions yet.

From FLANDERS NEWS BE:

"A sail yacht has capsized off the Ostend coast, leaving two passengers dead. One person is still missing. Three people could be saved and were taken away by helicopter.

The yacht was taking part in a race and capsized around 8:30 this morning. The accident happened some 10 miles off the Ostend coast.

Two passengers could be picked up by a dredging boat in the area. Five of the six passengers have been found, two of them passed away. One person is still missing. Three passengers were taken to the Sint-Jans Hospital; one of them is suffering from hypothermia.

A large-scale search was initiated to find the sixth victim. Various teams are taking part in the action, including Dutch crews. Because of the intervention, a demonstration in Middelkerke, where Queen Mathilde and King Filip were expected, was cancelled. A smaller demonstration exercise was held on the beach. "

 

The floor structure around the keel is not the place to save weight. Obviously. This is a current build of mine in Estonia for a Swedish client, 45' DE. Engineering by my old friend Ivan Eredevicki. I like to be conservative with these details.

ibold%20floors_zpszpqrrcue.jpg

I can assure you Frans Maas never ever saved weight on keel structures, he lived and sailed on quite a rough part of the North Sea and build and designed all his boats to deal with that, his build quality could match yards like Nautor's Swan. This boat has raced 10.000's of miles in offshore races like the Fastnet in much heavier conditions than on the day of the accident without any problem. Although the boat was more than 20 years old it was maintained meticulously, every year it would come out of the shed like it was new, I would not have hesitated for one second to join Frans and his boat for any offshore trip. 

From the upturned picture of the hull the bottom looks fully intact. Investigations are undertaken at this moment so I don't want to jump at conclusions, but my cautious guess is faulty keelbolts, maybe due to corrosion or fatigue.

20170702-capella-berging-7.jpg

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1 minute ago, Arthur Peltzer said:

I can assure you Frans Maas never ever saved weight on keel structures, he lived and sailed on quite a rough part of the North Sea and build and designed all his boats to deal with that, his build quality could match yards like Nautor's Swan. This boat has raced 10.000's of miles in offshore races like the Fastnet in much heavier conditions than on the day of the accident without any problem. Although the boat was more than 20 years old it was maintained meticulously, every year it would come out of the shed like it was new, I would not have hesitated for one second to join Frans and his boat for any offshore trip. 

From the upturned picture of the hull the bottom looks fully intact. Investigations are undertaken at this moment so I don't want to jump at conclusions, but my cautious guess is faulty keelbolts, maybe due to corrosion or fatigue.

20170702-capella-berging-7.jpg

To my eye....flaw in not having a two by two keel boat pattern....

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Arthur:

Having now seen that photo I would agree with you. That';s why I said "it was too early to jump to conclusions" when I posted.

Odd that it would leave that clean row of almost evenly broken bolts.

I'll refrain from further comment while the storm of human loss is still passing.

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I hope they can salvage the boat.  A look at the bolts would tell if they failed in sheer or bend/tension, and show if corrosion was a factor.

 

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1 minute ago, vtloon said:

I hope they can salvage the boat.  A look at the bolts would tell if they failed in sheer or bend/tension, and show if corrosion was a factor.

 

If I understand correctly, the boat has already been towed into a port. I do not know if it's been hauled out or investigation begun. No mention of the keel, and I would presume it's lost.

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2 minutes ago, RKoch said:

If I understand correctly, the boat has already been towed into a port. I do not know if it's been hauled out or investigation begun. No mention of the keel, and I would presume it's lost.

 

52150832.JPG

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3 minutes ago, RKoch said:

If I understand correctly, the boat has already been towed into a port. I do not know if it's been hauled out or investigation begun. No mention of the keel, and I would presume it's lost.

the keel is not needed to understand the failure

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Keel bolts all in line....none offset or opposed...stupid !!!....I am sorry ....but keel bolts all in the same plane is incomprehensible ....fine if you want to hang a 10,000 lbs keel from your yacht club bar....but if you are going to put the same 10,000 lbs keel on a sail boat you better know to have the keel bolts in opposing pairs or a staggered pattern....OMG !

 

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eliminate the flex cycle component with opposing keel bolts....otherwise you are relying on chemical bonding and torque wrench clamping alone...Euclid 101....offset keel bolts

IMG_0001.jpg

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4 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

20170702-capella-berging-7.jpg

To my eye....flaw in not having a two by two keel boat pattern....

Yeah even I noticed that and the only thing I remember from high school physics was the teacher threatening to cut off my ponytail. 

Is it possible the fin was cast with a flange machined to fit flush to and around that plate into that perimeter cavity thus obviating the need for opposing keel bolts because of a wide footprint? In theory at least...........

Very sad for victims, family and friends. 

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3 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Keel bolts all in line....none offset or opposed...stupid !!!....I am sorry ....but keel bolts all in the same plane is incomprehensible ....fine if you want to hang a 10,000 lbs keel from your yacht club bar....but if you are going to put the same 10,000 lbs keel on a sail boat you better know to have the keel bolts in opposing pairs or a staggered pattern....OMG !

 

Not stupid.  if you have a narrow keel,  Nothing inherently wrong with in-line keel bolts. provided the bolts are sized properly,. the old ABS specs said to essentially sum the distances from keel bolt centres to outer edge of keel face.  The only thing in-line bolts do is reduce the distance so you have to size the bolts larger.

I'll admit an argument can be made that the ABS solution is not technically correct since they are turning a statically indeterminate structure into a statically determinate one in the interest of simplicity I imagine.

Laurie Davidson used in-line bolts on several of his designs.

Below shows the in-line bolts on a Dash 34, of which somewhere near 30 were built about 35 years ago - with no such keel issues I am aware of and a few have even had bulbs attached to the keel tip with no additional alteration to the keel structure I am aware of.  These keels have a keel root width of only 4 inches, but the 4 bolts are quite massive for a 2500 lb keel.

LD went even further on the Davidson 29.  His keel base detail drawing below  appears to bear similarities to the keel in question what with the flange and in-line bolts.  The keel root width on this design is only 2 inches and the bolts are spec'd at 1 1/8" for the 3 main ones - 7/8" for the aft one.

Finally, a recent photo of the keel base of the D29 with the keel removed (not due to a failure, a T-keel was recently installed)

IMGP2038.JPG

10858397_861583700539080_5250755233767419358_n.jpg

11330030_955662794464503_6074540196655427115_n.png

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3 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Keel bolts all in line....none offset or opposed...stupid !!!....I am sorry ....but keel bolts all in the same plane is incomprehensible ....fine if you want to hang a 10,000 lbs keel from your yacht club bar....but if you are going to put the same 10,000 lbs keel on a sail boat you better know to have the keel bolts in opposing pairs or a staggered pattern....OMG !

 

SailblueH2O,

If you are not familiair with the ins and outs of keel structures then you had better not comment.

First of all, not all keel bolts on Capella are in line. Secondly, it's quite okay to use keel bolts in line. They just have to be bigger or there have to be more of them. Plenty of keels are constructed that way.

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Just now, janbart said:

SailblueH2O,

If you are not familiair with the ins and outs of keel structures then you had better not comment.

First of all, not all keel bolts on Capella are in line. Secondly, it's quite okay to use keel bolts in line. They just have to be bigger or there have to be more of them. Plenty of keels are constructed that way.

I am familiar....

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1 minute ago, SailBlueH2O said:

I am familiar....

Doesn't look that way.

 

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Take this keel discussion to why the front did not fall off thread guys... This tragic event is just over 24 hrs old. Have some respect for the lost sailors,their family and friends

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Again, doesn't look that way.

Not only is sailblueh2o dead wrong, he also basically  says the person who designed and built the keel structure of this particular boat is a fool. But that person happens to be one of the three sailors who lost their lives in this accident. And that person was a very knowledgeable and wordlwide respected yacht designer, yacht builder and sailor and, what's more, a very nice guy.

So forgive me for defending him.

Have some respect !

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Sailblueh2o has an agenda to promote keel safety, ignore him for the moment.

Youre right, Frans was no fool and would not step onboard an unsafe boat. Or design one.

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Best info on what happened, in Dutch...

http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/tragisch-zeilongeluk-voor-belgische-kust-twee-doden-en-een-18-jarige-vermiste~a4503947/

The guys clinging to the hull did that for  6 hours. 830 they capseized till 1430 time of being spotted.

Rescued by a pilot on a dredge near the Nippon bouy;
https://webapp.navionics.com/#boating@11&key=}fqxHq~yQ

Almost at the same (1430) time race organizer warned of a missing boat. No response to 9 am roll call on vhf.

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1 hour ago, LeoV said:

Sailblueh2o has an agenda to promote keel safety, ignore him for the moment.

Youre right, Frans was no fool and would not step onboard an unsafe boat. Or design one.

And here might just be the whole issue - the number of keel failures recently might be an indication that the currently accepted methods for keel attachment might become suspect, or at least need some reassessment.

In no way does this necessarily imply that every designer and builder that applied the current methods was either a fool or cutting corners.  Knowing Frans Maas (by name only for me) it is abundantly clear that he wasn't and didn't.

Which makes it all the more important to investigate and fully understand what happened to Capella.

In the meantime we can only offer our heartfelt condolences to the families of the victims, and the sailing community of Zeeuws Vlaanderen in general.

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Still shocked by the dead of Frans. A true gentleman, a true yachtsman and a wonderful designer with an enormous track record. None of you noticed but his yacht doesn’t have anti fouling because it wasn’t necessary, he pulled her out of the water when not sailing (ok, the guy had his own yard). That’s how meticulous he was for his Capella.

I will not go into details about the keel failure but the keel was very thin at the root and the bolts were not aligned (although the still suggest otherwise).

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12 hours ago, janbart said:

Again, doesn't look that way.

Not only is sailblueh2o dead wrong, he also basically  says the person who designed and built the keel structure of this particular boat is a fool. But that person happens to be one of the three sailors who lost their lives in this accident. And that person was a very knowledgeable and wordlwide respected yacht designer, yacht builder and sailor and, what's more, a very nice guy.

So forgive me for defending him.

Have some respect !

H2O built quite a few boats, including Imp. None have keels that fell off. I'd say he's plenty qualified to state his opinion.

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I'd be very interested to know if there were any potential precursors and what they wereor might have been. It's very possible there were precursors but were simply not identified as such.

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5 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

And here might just be the whole issue - the number of keel failures recently might be an indication that the currently accepted methods for keel attachment might become suspect, or at least need some reassessment.

Uhum, I have head about keel failures since more than 50 years. Nothing recent in that. The old wooden boats used about the same way to attach keels. From an engineering point of view it just an issue of dimensioning. 

//J

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The first time I ever heard about a keel falling off was Drum in the early 80's.

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

The first time I ever heard about a keel falling off was Drum in the early 80's.

That's the first i ever heard of a keel falling off. Before that, keels were taken for granted. Rig might come down, rudder might break, but the keel was NEVER coming off. It would seem that there's now a whole generation of sailors who consider keel failure an acceptable risk. 

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59 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

I bet this got a trip to a travelift, pronto. 

 

Best to avoid known wrecks

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4 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

From an engineering point of view it just an issue of dimensioning. 

//J

+1

The failure will probably be rather obvious when they inspect the keel root but there are so many possible reasons to explain the failure that it would be foolish to speculate now without more info. 

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4 hours ago, RKoch said:

That's the first i ever heard of a keel falling off. Before that, keels were taken for granted. Rig might come down, rudder might break, but the keel was NEVER coming off. It would seem that there's now a whole generation of sailors who consider keel failure an acceptable risk. 

That's just because you are so young and innocent guys. 

DRUM? Come on, you know how the keel was constructed, don't you?

And you really think nothing happened before Drum?

While on it, the sun was always shinig in the summers. And winters were snowy. Before Drum. That was the divider.

 

J

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5 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

That's just because you are so young and innocent guys. 

DRUM? Come on, you know how the keel was constructed, don't you?

And you really think nothing happened before Drum?

While on it, the sun was always shinig in the summers. And winters were snowy. Before Drum. That was the divider.

 

J

Thank you for the nice complement on my age, but of course you've made another erroneous assumption. I started racing offshore in the CCA era, before keels fell off. H2O who you blew off not only built Imp and many early Ron Holland designs, but also sailed on Windward Passage. You know it all newbies really know nothing. Of course I paid attention to Drums keel loss and the reason for it, it was a watershed moment when keels could no longer be taken for granted, as I commented to a yacht designer/builder I worked for at the time.  Drum was the first, but there have been many others since, with fatalities in some cases.

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IIRC the problem with Drum was a simple foundry error - they didn't J the bolts or put any other kind of "retainer" on the bottom of the bolts in that enormous lump of lead. The upshot was (according to the press at the time) that the lead simply slid off the bolts.

Jaramaz - how about you list a few boats where the keels fell off intact while simply sailing prior to the Drum incident? Say 5 boats?

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26 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

IIRC the problem with Drum was a simple foundry error - they didn't J the bolts or put any other kind of "retainer" on the bottom of the bolts in that enormous lump of lead. The upshot was (according to the press at the time) that the lead simply slid off the bolts.

Jaramaz - how about you list a few boats where the keels fell off intact while simply sailing prior to the Drum incident? Say 5 boats?

Actually 100% wrong, mate.  Drum's keel was in two parts.  A large aluminium weldment was the top five feet of it, and the seven-foot deep chunk of lead was bolted to the bottom of it.  The failure occurred all round the top weld seam, where the sides of the aluminium box were welded to the plate that was bolted to the hull.  That weld simply ripped right around, and away she went.  

I will post some photos I took of the new keel built at Moody's, showing the general arrangement.  The next version had a shed load more welding in it, also lots of cross passages in the aluminium holding the bolts, not just the top plate.  I went across the Atlantic twice on the old bus after that, with no fear at all.

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Regardless, the headline "more keel kills" is in very bad taste that, at best, trivialises a very sad event.

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1 hour ago, P_Wop said:

DRUM_keet_Moodys.JPG

Thanks for that clarification Wop. Nice to get the straight scoop, even if it is 35 years late. :D

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2 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Actually 100% wrong, mate.  Drum's keel was in two parts.  A large aluminium weldment was the top five feet of it, and the seven-foot deep chunk of lead was bolted to the bottom of it.  The failure occurred all round the top weld seam, where the sides of the aluminium box were welded to the plate that was bolted to the hull.  That weld simply ripped right around, and away she went.  

I will post some photos I took of the new keel built at Moody's, showing the general arrangement.  The next version had a shed load more welding in it, also lots of cross passages in the aluminium holding the bolts, not just the top plate.  I went across the Atlantic twice on the old bus after that, with no fear at all.

  Correct. I read the Holland analysis of the incident & saw the pics. Weld failure  in the alloy stub is what failed. Very sub standard welding

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45 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Thanks for that clarification Wop. Nice to get the straight scoop, even if it is 35 years late. :D

No worries, chum.  The new Drum keel was raced right round the marble after all, then a load of other stuff including our two transatlantics.  It even survived our encounter with the submarine off the Mull of Kintyre, and a fearful beaching in Scotland when her ground tackle failed a few years ago.  Still there after all these years.

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3 hours ago, RKoch said:

Thank you for the nice complement on my age, but of course you've made another erroneous assumption. I started racing offshore in the CCA era, before keels fell off. H2O who you blew off not only built Imp and many early Ron Holland designs, but also sailed on Windward Passage. You know it all newbies really know nothing. Of course I paid attention to Drums keel loss and the reason for it, it was a watershed moment when keels could no longer be taken for granted, as I commented to a yacht designer/builder I worked for at the time.  Drum was the first, but there have been many others since, with fatalities in some cases.

1) That's young to me.

2) I have not "blew of H20". Have not commented him at all. You are confusing me with someone else. Happens easily when one is writing many posts, doesn't it?

3) Well, the one who is known here as "know it all" .... that is you Kocher. You are most often right, but with all your posting (how much time are spending in this?) some are not really correct. 

4) calling me "newbe" just based on my number of posts? Good trick in a debate, but not really an argument, is it? 

5) WOP clarified very correctly the Drum problem. 

6) Drum happened at Fastnet 1985. Since the disaster 1979 (?) Fastnet got a lot of attention. Mainly by established media. Thus the reporting was good, a lot of information. 

7) SJB does want me to name at least 5 boats which dropped keels before 1985. Oh my, this is just like the old school yard. Name 5!
Well, not so sure I can remember all names and such.
Let me first say that 1985 was before internet was opened to the public. First time I entered public internet was around 1992 but for the general public we should maybe set a later date, as 2000? With internet came also both reporting of smaller incidents and the possibility to search for information on a larger scale. When something happens today it is much more difficult to hide it then  some 30+ years ago.  
When the Bavaria Match (40?) dropped a keel in the south of Europe (around 2006), Bavaria first tried to cover it up. But with internet that was not really possible. 10 years earlier they would probably succeed in hiding the incident.

OK, I will mention one case of dropped keel which I remember rather clearly: Krackemut Marine was (is?) making racing sailboats in the South of Sweden (Malmö area). Really hot boats. One of these were bought by  a guy living in Stockholm area, when sailing home yhey dropped their keel in Kalmarsund, the owners daughter drowned. This was probably 1980 -- 1985.  Now you want to search this, want you? You will probably not find much. It was hardly reported in the newspapers or in the sailing magazines, and certainly not outside Sweden. 

There was rumors about one of the major Swedish sailboat producers at that time, on the upper scale of the spectrum. Masthead boat, mast stepped on the keel, rig tension should be heigh, very high. Rumor says one boat just split during a heavy blow. No information about this can be found on internet, naturally. 1975 - 1980, I think. No, no references, and I will not name the company due to possible legal aspects. 

The Morning Cloud  (edward Heath boat) accident is not very well described on internet, as I remember it at that time it was report as the boat parted in some way. But that could be wrong, it was many years ago. 

In general, do you two, Kocher and SJB, really think boat design & constrution took a downturn on exactly the year 1985? Before that, no dropped keels?

Of course, modern keel constrution leave of lot to wish for, that we can probably agree on. There are certainly more keel & bottom damage today than let's say 40 years ago. When sailing then it was just a matter of time before one went aground, in most cases without any real damage. Today I am very carefully avoiding all kinds of grounds, and have the means to do that.

At the same time there are well built boats that handles a grounding just fine. The Dehler video is wellknown.  There are other examples. Thus it is just an issue of dimensioning. 

Are we happy now?

//J

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14 hours ago, RKoch said:

That's the first i ever heard of a keel falling off. Before that, keels were taken for granted. Rig might come down, rudder might break, but the keel was NEVER coming off. It would seem that there's now a whole generation of sailors who consider keel failure an acceptable risk. 

Okay, my memory is a little fuzzy on this, but didn't Charley (Holland 67 ULDB) losing her keel pre-date Drum?  Charley took line honours in the 1984 Vic-Maui and I thought she lost her keel on the way back.  Couldn't find any info on the web to verify this or not - not too surprising I suppose since she didn't have Simon LeBon on board.

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8 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

1) That's young to me.

2) I have not "blew of H20". Have not commented him at all. You are confusing me with someone else. Happens easily when one is writing many posts, doesn't it?

3) Well, the one who is known here as "know it all" .... that is you Kocher. You are most often right, but with all your posting (how much time are spending in this?) some are not really correct. 

4) calling me "newbe" just based on my number of posts? Good trick in a debate, but not really an argument, is it? 

5) WOP clarified very correctly the Drum problem. 

6) Drum happened at Fastnet 1985. Since the disaster 1979 (?) Fastnet got a lot of attention. Mainly by established media. Thus the reporting was good, a lot of information. 

7) SJB does want me to name at least 5 boats which dropped keels before 1985. Oh my, this is just like the old school yard. Name 5!
Well, not so sure I can remember all names and such.
Let me first say that 1985 was before internet was opened to the public. First time I entered public internet was around 1992 but for the general public we should maybe set a later date, as 2000? With internet came also both reporting of smaller incidents and the possibility to search for information on a larger scale. When something happens today it is much more difficult to hide it then  some 30+ years ago.  
When the Bavaria Match (40?) dropped a keel in the south of Europe (around 2006), Bavaria first tried to cover it up. But with internet that was not really possible. 10 years earlier they would probably succeed in hiding the incident.

OK, I will mention one case of dropped keel which I remember rather clearly: Krackemut Marine was (is?) making racing sailboats in the South of Sweden (Malmö area). Really hot boats. One of these were bought by  a guy living in Stockholm area, when sailing home yhey dropped their keel in Kalmarsund, the owners daughter drowned. This was probably 1980 -- 1985.  Now you want to search this, want you? You will probably not find much. It was hardly reported in the newspapers or in the sailing magazines, and certainly not outside Sweden. 

There was rumors about one of the major Swedish sailboat producers at that time, on the upper scale of the spectrum. Masthead boat, mast stepped on the keel, rig tension should be heigh, very high. Rumor says one boat just split during a heavy blow. No information about this can be found on internet, naturally. 1975 - 1980, I think. No, no references, and I will not name the company due to possible legal aspects. 

The Morning Cloud  (edward Heath boat) accident is not very well described on internet, as I remember it at that time it was report as the boat parted in some way. But that could be wrong, it was many years ago. 

In general, do you two, Kocher and SJB, really think boat design & constrution took a downturn on exactly the year 1985? Before that, no dropped keels?

Of course, modern keel constrution leave of lot to wish for, that we can probably agree on. There are certainly more keel & bottom damage today than let's say 40 years ago. When sailing then it was just a matter of time before one went aground, in most cases without any real damage. Today I am very carefully avoiding all kinds of grounds, and have the means to do that.

At the same time there are well built boats that handles a grounding just fine. The Dehler video is wellknown.  There are other examples. Thus it is just an issue of dimensioning. 

Are we happy now?

//J

The ISAF keel failure Working Committee is studying keel failures back to 1984. I presume they would study keel failures prior, but couldn't find any. 72 failures (24 deaths) but that was as of a couple years ago...several since then. I don't think their data includes boat loss/deaths where the cause is unknown.

 The ORC acted very quickly after the '79 Fastnet to address marginal stability, at least officially as a working group. The IOR committee had already done so 'unofficially' in severe rating penalties handed to the lightweight daggerboarders. However, the Keel failure working committee has been at it since 2009, and there has been numerous failures and deaths since then, and little has come out of the committee.

The boat that had a centerline hull failure under the mast step was the Mary E III, a 40'er that sank in the 1976 Miami-Nassau Race. I chatted with them before the race. All the crew rescued by 2 Carter 39s in the race. IIRC, other boats of the model were inspected and repaired as necessary, and it wasn't a fleet-wide problem. Completely unrelated to a keel failure, but your red-herring attempt is noted. 

 

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Morning Cloud III was destroyed in a violent Channel storm - they salvaged one side of the boat (port?) more or less intact which indicated that it split down the backbone. Pictures of it in a sling were published in Heath's book. Heath's nephew died in the tragedy.

Unrelated to keel failure.

Quoting such things as the Match failures is hardly providing support for your contention that keel failures were nothing new prior to Drum. This problem appears to go hand in glove with the ever increasing focus on lightness and razor thin keels with tiny mounting surfaces. My (and Kochers) whole contention was that this near epidemic of them is a fairly recent phenomenon and you have done nothing to put the lie to that.

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8 hours ago, 12 metre said:

Okay, my memory is a little fuzzy on this, but didn't Charley (Holland 67 ULDB) losing her keel pre-date Drum?  Charley took line honours in the 1984 Vic-Maui and I thought she lost her keel on the way back.  Couldn't find any info on the web to verify this or not - not too surprising I suppose since she didn't have Simon LeBon on board.

I helped deliver Charley from Cabo to San Diego shortly after that (1985 rings a bell), and that is what I was told as well.  I can not imagine how they kept that boat upright without a keel.  Very skilled/lucky.

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24 minutes ago, dash34 said:

I helped deliver Charley from Cabo to San Diego shortly after that (1985 rings a bell), and that is what I was told as well.  I can not imagine how they kept that boat upright without a keel.  Very skilled/lucky.

Did you get any info on why it fell off?  There was a short write up about it in a sailing mag at the time, but I can't recall if it provided any details.

I guess there wouldn't be much info about it because there was no inquiry I am aware of because of the outcome you mention.  While it made interesting bar talk at the time, it seemed to have been mostly met with a shrug of the shoulders.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Morning Cloud III was destroyed in a violent Channel storm - they salvaged one side of the boat (port?) more or less intact which indicated that it split down the backbone. Pictures of it in a sling were published in Heath's book. Heath's nephew died in the tragedy.

Unrelated to keel failure.

Quoting such things as the Match failures is hardly providing support for your contention that keel failures were nothing new prior to Drum. This problem appears to go hand in glove with the ever increasing focus on lightness and razor thin keels with tiny mounting surfaces. My (and Kochers) whole contention was that this near epidemic of them is a fairly recent phenomenon and you have done nothing to put the lie to that.

Morning Cloud broke up being pounded on the bottom during a couple gales after sinking. A fishing boat snagged the wreck a few weeks after it sank.

The sinking...the boat was knocked down by a large wave washing two crew overboard, one was recovered, the other had broken tether. While searching for the missing crew (under power at that point), the yacht was hit by another large wave, which knocked it down again, damaging several deck beams, carrying away the forward hatch (apparently the dogs failed), and damaging the mast. Additionally, a crew was emerging from the companionway at the moment, was washed overboard (hadn't attached tether) and the yacht took aboard a great deal of water through the open hatches and other damage.3 of the remaining 5 aboard had injuries so the decision was made to abandon ship into a 4-man liferaft (the 6-man liferaft was lost when a cockpit locker lid was carried away). The survivors in the raft drifted ashore.  It's not known if the boat had sustained damage to the hull, but the keel was still attached when abandoned, as the boat righted itself after both knock downs. 

The boat was a 1973 S&S design built in cold-molded wood (Souters?). I would say a primary cause of the sinking was water ingress due to the failed hatches (which were large to facilitate sail-handling during races). Additionally, since both knock-downs were in the same general location it's possible there was a geographical feature on the channel bottom that caused waves to break there, and they got caught twice in that spot. 

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