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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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southseasbill

Clean Interview of GA

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Typing as I listen.

two minutes in Clean has already made tow mistakes, one of which is huge.

1. Calls Burling the Skipper, not Glenn
2. Gets Glenn's home state wrong (in his defence probably doesn't even know South Australia is a state).
 

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I said it on the "Why did TNZ win" thread, but the biggest reason was Glenn. He knew how he wanted the boat to be sailed, how he wanted to use the wing and this time around, he got what he wanted.

My only concern from the interview is that I am beginning to think the AC is heading back to lead mines. :(

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Yep interesting to hear Ashby, but had to fast forward over some of the rambling questions. 

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Clean's intro was pretty good except for one idea, that was not worth rewinding to catch. Included in that intro, ETNZ's 'brilliant' Kiwi-ingenuity autopilot system was really given to them.. from Italy??

GA is f'ing brilliant, it's a very good interview.

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34 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Clean's intro was pretty good except for one idea, that was not worth rewinding to catch. Included in that intro, ETNZ's 'brilliant' Kiwi-ingenuity autopilot system was really given to them.. from Italy??

GA is f'ing brilliant, it's a very good interview.

I had wondered if the AC62 design inspired them in a different direction than the other teams who scaled up an AC45.  

I agree that it sounds like it's not going to be catamarans any more but Glenn is not going to be happy if it's not full foiling.  Not sure what else it can be that is manageable at that size or bigger unless it becomes a tri.  I can't see match racing in a DSS inspired boat with foils well wide of the beam of the boat.  The dialup would be too dangerous.  We will see.

How many other teams held back their "ripest fruits" until the end?  I would guess none.  

Clean, what did you take away that was most interesting?  

 

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Clean's intro was pretty good except for one idea, that was not worth rewinding to catch. Included in that intro, ETNZ's 'brilliant' Kiwi-ingenuity autopilot system was really given to them.. from Italy??

GA is f'ing brilliant, it's a very good interview.

Actually, it was designed and built in-house you moron!!

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Thanks for this interview clean - great listening while I waited for the parade to arrive!

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To be fair to Clean i think he was referring to reporting coming out of Italian media as the source of the "auto-pilot" stories - not verified fact. But a great listen, ramblings and all - and illuminating to hear GA being so frank. Thanks for sharing Clean.

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Good grief Clean loves the sound of his own voice. Here's a hint Clean, it's about THEM not you.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Good grief Clean loves the sound of his own voice. Here's a hint Clean, it's about THEM not you.

I dunno, I reckon he sounds pretty cool. He rambles on but is pretty interesting most of the time. I dont know what he looks like, but i have this mental image of him pouring a generous rum and getting well stuck into it before thinking " i know, I'm feeling pretty mellow, i'll record my next interview intro now..."

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8 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

My only concern from the interview is that I am beginning to think the AC is heading back to lead mines. :(

Really? I thought he said definitely top technology and foiling...

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The bit about not pumping the wing helping the foils keep smooth flow/pressure was very interesting & after the fact should have been obvious.

 

Same lift with 20% less area on the Whomper foils (albeit number from an Orifice person). I had thought something like that, huge span but less area through being super thin.

Higher area loading explains also why they appeared to get sticky at the bottom end. (& why the importance of keeping smooth pressure)

Clean conflates the whomper damage with the pitcpole which is wrong.

 

Gashby pretty clear he wants next AC boats to be top-end tech, didn't sound overly committed to helping Defend.

 

Confirms they really were looking at sailing no-jib, great for tacks but went against it due to poor acceleration from low speed.

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11 hours ago, southseasbill said:

Thanks, where did you find that link?

Btw 100,000 paraglider  pilots know that you can in fact fly an aeroplane with a rope. Even with string.

 

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11 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Typing as I listen.

two minutes in Clean has already made tow mistakes, one of which is huge.

1. Calls Burling the Skipper, not Glenn
2. Gets Glenn's home state wrong (in his defence probably doesn't even know South Australia is a state).
 

 

19437451_1734492756568336_160287846982474755_n.jpg

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8 hours ago, Indio said:

Actually, it was designed and built in-house you moron!!

I have this feeling @Indio knows more than he is letting on

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Cleer from Ashbys testimony that Italian "Autopilot" woz ewzd for erly testing > consistent data to optimize foyl & trim

Not leegel tho. TNZ then bilt manewel foyl control sistem, leegel under rewlz.

But Stingray will continew to heer whot he wonts to heer and beleev whot he wonts to beleev.

NEW TOPIK (that wun iz boring):

If OR had had a Herbie in SF, kleerly thay wood hav developt a mutsh better (leegel) Herbie for Bermuda.

It woz abundently cleer at the tym that "Herbie" was a figment ov feverd imajinayshunz (eg Peter Lester frothing at the mowth) arizing from gross misunderstandingz ov the entyrely leegel mech/hyd valve feedbak loop whitsh OR ewzed to preselect foyl rayk.

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By far the best AC interview I have heard.  None of the painful canned answers thanking the fucking shore crew.  And not sure if it was a self realization or somebody pointed it out to him, but I don't think I heard an "at the end of the day..." out of GA.  Well done!

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Interesting interview, here are some of the bits I found most interesting:

- Clean shedding light on how much cooperation there was between ETNZ and LR with the "Luna Rossa Auto-pilot" that was a key to victory.  

- Lessons learned with the AC72 wing helped a lot with the AC50 wing.

- "Can't fly an airplane with a piece of rope".  Damn good quote.  GA surprised none of the other teams went with the box controls.  I am to, especially with OR.  Its like they didn't advance over their AC72 controls where ETNZ did, clearly.  

- Keeping the boom steady it kept side force on the foils which led to more foil stability.  This is the bit I find the most compelling and to me the ultimate difference for ETNZ.

- Components coming online right up until the end.  Another critical lesson learned from AC34, IMO.

- Both boats fairly similar, but ETNZ could sail their boat more aggressively, could sail their boat better.

I guess I missed the bit where it was alluded to that AC36 was heading to lead mines, but it makes sense when you considering that Luna Rossa gave ETNZ their "auto-pilot" control system for AC35.  If Luna Rossa entered AC35 with that auto-pilot it stands to reason they would of been left standing at the end holding the Cup.  But ETNZ have that technology now so why would Luna Rossa agree to continue with boats similar to the AC50's where an auto-pilot system would be needed?  Luna Rossa wanting to move away entirely from the AC50 type boats and towards lead mines with no stored energy and soft sails makes more sense doesn't it?  It would level the playing field more for Luna Rossa specifically and other Challengers as well.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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14 hours ago, Indio said:

Actually, it was designed and built in-house you moron!!

There is a great story in the autopilot system, and none of you are probably ever going to know about it.  Suffice to say the Luna Rossa IP was absolutely essential to ETNZ's foil control development.  It is one of many, many technical stories that may never be revealed due to contractual obligations.  Unless we go back to monohulls...

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11 hours ago, jaysper said:

Good grief Clean loves the sound of his own voice. Here's a hint Clean, it's about THEM not you.

Here's your own hint: It's my podcast, it's about whatever I want it to be. Here's another hint: It may sound like radio, but you can actually listen to anything you want and fast forward anything else you want.  It's like 'new radio, and is called a podcast, and most smartphones (which are like phones, but more versatile) have a <forward> and a <back> button that will let you do all sorts of amazing things that radio never could. 

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23 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

There is a great story in the autopilot system, and none of you are probably ever going to know about it.  Suffice to say the Luna Rossa IP was absolutely essential to ETNZ's foil control development.  It is one of many, many technical stories that may never be revealed due to contractual obligations.  Unless we go back to monohulls...

I got shot down by Indio for daring to suggest that might have got a little leg up from their Italian chums a while back, seems I wasn't the only one knowing they had help.

 

kinda funny for an underfunded team, stick 30 million on their budget and they don't look the poor relation any more do they, I mean that's if they upset Prada and they get the bill for the tech and help.

glen says the team was buried in 2015, they must have received a fuck load of tech, about 30 million worth, to suddenly less than two years later nail the most complex and advanced boat out of all the teams

I guess  losing the choice of boat to the COR must have been a price worth paying eh? 

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29 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

glen says the team was buried in 2015, they must have received a fuck load of tech, about 30 million worth, to suddenly less than two years later nail the most complex and advanced boat out of all the teams

There is a big difference if you get the 30 million in cash or as technology infusion. Esp. if that's new technology that you don't have on your own. 

Maybe the remaining interviews will dig a bit deeper into this aspect. ;)

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19 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Typing as I listen.

two minutes in Clean has already made tow mistakes, one of which is huge.

1. Calls Burling the Skipper, not Glenn
2. Gets Glenn's home state wrong (in his defence probably doesn't even know South Australia is a state).
 

   3.  Correct we got to see the plan view of ETNZ's foils very late in the game, but those "unveiled" by the pitchpole were the APs

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Great interview.  I didn't get the mono angle either - but if I were a betting man I don't think we're going back to lead mines. GA is pretty savvy so I don't think he would have talked about cutting edge, fully-foiling boats if that were the case as it would make life very awkward between him and GD if they returned to the slugs (assuming he has a future with ETNZ).

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1 hour ago, Xlot said:

   3.  Correct we got to see the plan view of ETNZ's foils very late in the game, but those "unveiled" by the pitchpole were the APs

Nope - I pointed out the extreme 'needle foils' that were already in evidence, (in plan view), in the overhead shots of the Surrogate in Auckland last year.

.......if that's what you mean

 

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I was wondering... If Luna Rossa was really working at this autopilot, and if I'm not mistaken the system requires a sort of human feedback to close the loop ... wasn't the choice of cycling a must for them too? At least for one member of the crew in order to use the system with his hands free from grinding. On the other hand De Nora stated in his interview to "La Stampa" that cycling was not a borrowed idea from the Italians. Will we ever know the truth?

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16 minutes ago, Indio said:

Remind you of your home life Jason??:lol:

Ah spanky, since you clearly can't resist the lure of my attention, I will help you with your addiction by putting you on ignore.

Laters!

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10 minutes ago, strider470 said:

I was wondering... If Luna Rossa was really working at this autopilot, and if I'm not mistaken the system requires a sort of human feedback to close the loop ... wasn't the choice of cycling a must for them too? At least for one member of the crew in order to use the system with his hands free from grinding. On the other hand De Nora stated in his interview to "La Stampa" that cycling was not a borrowed idea from the Italians. Will we ever know the truth?

 

^ The final implementation of the system depended on the Interpretation that was sought (I highlighted it in the New AC15 thread at the time)

But there would have been other (probably less efficient) ways to include the system - other limbs, other crew....

Just how much of a cooperative thing it was is still unclear - but you can be sure it was far from it's final form when first presented as a possibility to the team....

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10 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Ah spanky, since you clearly can't resist the lure of my attention, I will help you with your addiction by putting you on ignore.

Laters!

Wow, what complete and utter crap did he spout this time? 

Welcome to the Club. ;)

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5 minutes ago, nav said:

 

^ The final implementation of the system depended on the Interpretation that was sought (I highlighted it in the New AC15 thread at the time)

But there would have been other (probably less efficient) ways to include the system - other limbs, other crew....

Just how much of a cooperative thing it was is still unclear - but you can be sure it was far from it's final form when first presented as a possibility to the team....

In the end Oracle caused their own defeat! Without LR withdrawal, it is possible that neither the Italians nor TNZ would have won the Cup. But together it has been a different story

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12 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Wow, what complete and utter crap did he spout this time? 

Welcome to the Club. ;)

Ah, he just kept reading my posts and replying despite the fact that he PROMISED to put me on ignore!

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21 minutes ago, strider470 said:

In the end Oracle caused their own defeat! Without LR withdrawal, it is possible that neither the Italians nor TNZ would have won the Cup. But together it has been a different story

RC's insistence on making 'athletes' have to power these boats kinda bit him in the ass too, although tangentially because the even bigger gain from thinking about cyclors was the far better division of labor it discovered.

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1 hour ago, nav said:

Nope - I pointed out the extreme 'needle foils' that were already in evidence, (in plan view), in the overhead shots of the Surrogate in Auckland last year.

.......if that's what you mean

 

On the Turbo, it could have been anything - even a decoy or a dead end. I'm talking about the real race foils

 

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4 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

There is a great story in the autopilot system, and none of you are probably ever going to know about it.  Suffice to say the Luna Rossa IP was absolutely essential to ETNZ's foil control development.  It is one of many, many technical stories that may never be revealed due to contractual obligations.  Unless we go back to monohulls...

The story is out there. If you factor in the IP (priceless because it included time) and the USD30million cash infusion, ETNZ was probably the most well-funded of all the teams. Which means that - once again - the deepest pockets won, the 'plucky underdog' narrative notwithstanding. 

Let's hope the deal didn't include a Faustian bargain regarding the future of the cup.

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13 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

The story is out there. If you factor in the IP (priceless because it included time) and the USD30million cash infusion, ETNZ was probably the most well-funded of all the teams. Which means that - once again - the deepest pockets won, the 'plucky underdog' narrative notwithstanding. 

Let's hope the deal didn't include a Faustian bargain regarding the future of the cup.

Especially if that bargain means P$B gets to call even more than the boat, one he btw may already have head-start 'designs' on.

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4 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

kinda funny for an underfunded team, stick 30 million on their budget and they don't look the poor relation any more do they, I mean that's if they upset Prada and they get the bill for the tech and help.

glen says the team was buried in 2015, they must have received a fuck load of tech, about 30 million worth, to suddenly less than two years later nail the most complex and advanced boat out of all the teams

I guess  losing the choice of boat to the COR must have been a price worth paying eh? 

Still whining after all this time...You should establish some facts before you make yourself look like just another whinging pom. No one knows what ETNZ's total budget was, nor the scope of assistance they received from the LR principal Patrizio Bertelli. The "€30-mil" being bandied around is just wild-assed guesses from the likes of Clean. Just ask yourself this: what billionaire would happily part with "€30-mil" with no foreseeable quantifiable return? Some posters around here like spinbot are quite happy "spending" billionaires' money - the reality would be quite different I would suggest. €30-mil is a lot of dosh even Patrizio Bertelli would wince at spending. Clean's claim of €30-mil worth of "LR IP" is more WAG - for that much money, ETNZ could have re-designed the entire Parker Hannifin hydraulic and motion-control system they supplied to OR-Xerox, and have change left over for another 2 AC50s!

Quote

..to suddenly less than two years later nail the most complex and advanced boat out of all the teams..

LOL...you have no idea about the level of technical capabilities within the ETNZ team. Instead of putting intelligence in the switching devices by using proportional and servo control valves, ETNZ used simple German solenoid valves and put the intelligence to control and switch them at the control system - the "auto=pilot" system you're all wetting yourselves over. If any team wants to pay €30-mil for that control system, Dalts would jump on the next plane to bring it to you, gift- wrapped!!

Stop trying to judge ETNZ's successful campaign against the failure of your star-studded £100+-mil BAR campaign. Chalk & cheese..

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26 minutes ago, Xlot said:

On the Turbo, it could have been anything - even a decoy or a dead end. I'm talking about the real race foils

 

No sorry ...

 

ETNZ called their test sled a 'Surrogate' - exactly what it was.

The foils I pointed out were not decoys - as they were doing close to 50 knots around the harbour with them in.

They were not dead ends either, those foils had the same shape (in plan) as the final sets, that extremely fine tip has been a feature for some time. They have been consistent in that regard.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

Still whining after all this time...You should establish some facts before you make yourself look like just another whinging pom. No one knows what ETNZ's total budget was, nor the scope of assistance they received from the LR principal Patrizio Bertelli. The "€30-mil" being bandied around is just wild-assed guesses from the likes of Clean. Just ask yourself this: what billionaire would happily part with "€30-mil" with no foreseeable quantifiable return? Some posters around here like spinbot are quite happy "spending" billionaires' money - the reality would be quite different I would suggest. €30-mil is a lot of dosh even Patrizio Bertelli would wince at spending. Clean's claim of €30-mil worth of "LR IP" is more WAG - for that much money, ETNZ could have re-designed the entire Parker Hannifin hydraulic and motion-control system they supplied to OR-Xerox, and have change left over for another 2 AC50s!

LOL...you have no idea about the level of technical capabilities within the ETNZ team. Instead of putting intelligence in the switching devices by using proportional and servo control valves, ETNZ used simple German solenoid valves and put the intelligence to control and switch them at the control system - the "auto=pilot" system you're all wetting yourselves over. If any team wants to pay €30-mil for that control system, Dalts would jump on the next plane to bring it to you, gift- wrapped!!

Stop trying to judge ETNZ's successful campaign against the failure of your star-studded £100+-mil BAR campaign. Chalk & cheese..

Telling me to bring facts, and yet you don't?  Awesome logic.

 

the 30 mil is what's in the Italian media and only counts IF they doubt give them the clad boats Prada want.  parting with the data to fuck over another billionaire was fucking cheap! At the time there was an article on here putting the. Hasn't sornt in development if the 62program at 5mil.

He had enough grievance to close his operation so getting the end result with no more work was win win, all it took was the agreement to sacrifice or make concessions to the COR to get it, greed and revenge was a powerful motivator, again Glen eludes to the fire in the belly and laying ghosts to rest.

when down and out and on theEdge of closing the doors it must have seemed the only option. Accept the offer...

the two years is going on Glens own chat with clean, 

i ain't winging about bar they know they had failings, show me a cup team that hasn't?

IF it's all bullshit how do you explain the rumours? How do you explain Max turning up with containers of gear, the COR all of it?

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3 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Telling me to bring facts, and yet you don't?  Awesome logic.

 

the 30 mil is what's in the Italian media and only counts IF they doubt give them the clad boats Prada want.  parting with the data to fuck over another billionaire was fucking cheap! At the time there was an article on here putting the. Hasn't sornt in development if the 62program at 5mil.

He had enough grievance to close his operation so getting the end result with no more work was win win, all it took was the agreement to sacrifice or make concessions to the COR to get it, greed and revenge was a powerful motivator, again Glen eludes to the fire in the belly and laying ghosts to rest.

when down and out and on theEdge of closing the doors it must have seemed the only option. Accept the offer...

the two years is going on Glens own chat with clean, 

i ain't winging about bar they know they had failings, show me a cup team that hasn't?

IF it's all bullshit how do you explain the rumours? How do you explain Max turning up with containers of gear, the COR all of it?

Yep, just as I thought. Incoherent ramblings unsupported by any facts. Get back to your warm ale...

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On 7/6/2017 at 10:53 AM, A Class Sailor said:

I said it on the "Why did TNZ win" thread, but the biggest reason was Glenn. He knew how he wanted the boat to be sailed, how he wanted to use the wing and this time around, he got what he wanted.

My only concern from the interview is that I am beginning to think the AC is heading back to lead mines. :(

No you didnt  say -  " the biggest reason was Glenn "

You said the only reason was Glenn -  " Why was ETNZ faster? 2 words. Glenn Ashby."

Yo boy O

Your "My only concern from the interview is that I am beginning to think the AC is heading back to lead mines".

As you will know the C Class Little Americas Cup idea was stolen ,, Now theres a chance to get back to mono high performance with or without lead

 

Go Yo

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6 minutes ago, Indio said:

Yep, just as I thought. Incoherent ramblings unsupported by any facts. Get back to your warm ale...

So you can't actually engage in a discussion without throwing insults?

my last paragraph was a genuine question. You not interested in offering an answer?

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1 hour ago, surfsailor said:

The story is out there. If you factor in the IP (priceless because it included time) and the USD30million cash infusion, ETNZ was probably the most well-funded of all the teams. Which means that - once again - the deepest pockets won, the 'plucky underdog' narrative notwithstanding. 

Let's hope the deal didn't include a Faustian bargain regarding the future of the cup.

Ha ha... good joke. ETNZ had about 90 staff but were at about 30 for the first year until they got going. OR had 250+ peaking at almost 300 (according to people who work for OR) in Bermuda. They were in Bermuda 30 months vs 6 months for ETNZ. Housing, transporting, feeding all those people. Then there's the corporate hosting they did daily for months which ETNZ barely did at all. Even these things there - ignoring the cost of building the actual boat - are a probably $100m gap all things told across a three year campaign.

The size of the OR operation and base was truly massive compared to ETNZ (or the smaller teams - Groupama/Artemis/Japan). Without any doubt they spent at least double any other team save for BAR. Jimmy Spithill alone got paid annually (rumoured to be about $8m) more than the whole ETNZ crew combined across the whole cup cycle.

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Just this: to the best of my knowledge, the infamous €30M originated somewhere in the web, quite possibly as a brainchild of Clean's rich imagination. I have not, repeat not seen that mentioned in the Italian press

 

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The 30M number came from an italian journalist who is fairly reliable but has been accused of creative sourcing before.  I have emphasized that it has never been corroborated in any way.  It's a neat story though.  

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16 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Just this: to the best of my knowledge, the infamous €30M originated somewhere in the web, quite possibly as a brainchild of Clean's rich imagination. I have not, repeat not seen that mentioned in the Italian press

 

Karsten/Carsten- (whatever his last name is) was the first to report it, in German.

It is far more likely imo that the E30 gift/bribe was weighted more into time-invested IP and designs, than weighted as raw cash. Which would have been more valuable is debatable

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2 hours ago, surfsailor said:

The story is out there. If you factor in the IP (priceless because it included time) and the USD30million cash infusion, ETNZ was probably the most well-funded of all the teams. Which means that - once again - the deepest pockets won, the 'plucky underdog' narrative notwithstanding. 

Let's hope the deal didn't include a Faustian bargain regarding the future of the cup.

I said nothing about a cash infusion.  is there a source for that information?

 

What I said, based on three different sources who each came up with a piece of the puzzle and NOT corroborated by anyone inside the teams, is the following - and again, this is NOT FACT, it is speculation based on the info I pieced together.

1) Luna Rossa turned over all its gear and IP to ETNZ for the cost of shipping after they dropped out.

2) Luna Rossa and ETNZ made an agreement whereby in exchange for the gear, LR would be the challenger of record if ETNZ won.

3) The agreement further provided that, if ETNZ won, they would be required to accept LR's challenge in a monohull to be agreed upon between the parties.

4) Finally, it provided that if ETNZ won and either (1) didn't accept LR's challenge or (2) didn't accept a monohull, then they would have to pay for the agreed-upon value of the equipment and IP they received from Luna Rossa.  The number of $30M is ostensibly what Max spent with LR from the end of AC34 to their withdrawal from AC35, and if you know the size of the program, the bonuses they paid to lock people up early, and the kind of cash burn they had, it's easy to imagine it.

Like I said, it's a neat story that makes a lot of sense.  Whether it is true or not?  No idea.  Whether it is actually legal under the deed to make that sort of arrangement is another story, though it would be hard for the signatories to the Framework to argue.  Personally, I believe that such an agreement may actually be okay under the deed's prohibition against 'considering other challenges' but only because ETNZ was not the defender. 

Good times.

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4 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Karsten -(whatever his last name is) was the first to report it, in German.

Rennie? Comment please

About cash infusion, Matteo De Nora (among others) denied that

 

 

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3 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

So you can't actually engage in a discussion without throwing insults?

my last paragraph was a genuine question. You not interested in offering an answer?

It's no secret that LR provided assistance to ETNZ. I questioned the Euro30-mil assertion you, Clean and every other critic of ETNZ are making. The "auto-pilot" system was not worth the Euro30-mil...

As for the acceptance of CVS/LR as CoR - who do you think out of OR-Xerox and the 4 poodles was ever likely to be CoR? Seriously?? Here's a hint: NONE. BT Sport even showed the Commodore of RYS with what they suggested was an "official challenge" on the final race day LOL! Given the close relationship between ETNZ and LR going back 20 years, LR was always going to be CoR: two like-minded teams and team principals keen to re-establish fainess and a level playing field to an AC hijacked by selfish egomaniacs.

Without LR in the picture, I suspect ETNZ would have gone with Artemis as CoR mainly because of their history in the AC.

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I don't think ETNZ even entertained Artemis in discussions towards the end of the event because of Tornquist's connections to Coutts.  

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4 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I don't think ETNZ even entertained Artemis in discussions towards the end of the event because of Tornquist's like-mindedness with Larry.  

Fify

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12 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

I guess  losing the choice of boat to the COR must have been a price worth paying eh? 

Choice of boat goes to the Challenger per DoG except by mutual consent so no problem there to me.

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6 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The 30M number came from an italian journalist who is fairly reliable but has been accused of creative sourcing before.  I have emphasized that it has never been corroborated in any way.  It's a neat story though.  

Hey Mr Clean. I told a member of ETNZ about the claims made today - a guy I've know for over 20 years. He said he has no idea where people get some of the stories they do.

Note: he's not saying there wasn't some tech/IP collab with Luna Rossa but was surprised to hear such numbers were being claimed. ETNZ's budget was less than what they spent in San Fran according to what I've heard so $30m would seem like an absurdly large per cent of it if true.

FWIW, if ETNZ's flight control system is as has been explained (and I'm not entirely sure it is) then the IP is not all that complex really - mostly just really novel. Even after explaining how it works verbally the basic concept could be designed from the ground up in a few weeks and then get to fine-tuning/testing it (in various ways - off or on-water). So, unless LR had a basically working unit I would be very surprised if any obligation from ETNZ was anywhere near the numbers being suggested. I'd even say $5m was too high. Again: the way it worked is not that complicated even if it was really creative.

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6 hours ago, Indio said:

It's no secret that LR provided assistance to ETNZ. I questioned the Euro30-mil assertion you, Clean and every other critic of ETNZ are making. The "auto-pilot" system was not worth the Euro30-mil...

As for the acceptance of CVS/LR as CoR - who do you think out of OR-Xerox and the 4 poodles was ever likely to be CoR? Seriously?? Here's a hint: NONE. BT Sport even showed the Commodore of RYS with what they suggested was an "official challenge" on the final race day LOL! Given the close relationship between ETNZ and LR going back 20 years, LR was always going to be CoR: two like-minded teams and team principals keen to re-establish fainess and a level playing field to an AC hijacked by selfish egomaniacs.

Without LR in the picture, I suspect ETNZ would have gone with Artemis as CoR mainly because of their history in the AC.

 

I agree that 30 mil seems a bit over the top .. as far as the control system goes the value in that is the idea of having a system where the operator can follow the feed from sensors with a manual input.

Now that the idea is public knowledge I am quite certain that if the AC50's are retained all of the teams will have their own versions of the system and they will work equally well.

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I can imagine that as I write, Larry is having his minions at Latham and Watkins fine-toothing the Deed of Gift to see if any collusion that might have existed between LR and ETNZ regarding sharing technology regarding the Herbie might in any way be in violation of the Deed and void ENTZ's win.  Wouldn't be surprised if this is happening.  Who knows.

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9 hours ago, surfsailor said:

The story is out there. If you factor in the IP (priceless because it included time) and the USD30million cash infusion, ETNZ was probably the most well-funded of all the teams. Which means that - once again - the deepest pockets won, the 'plucky underdog' narrative notwithstanding. 

Let's hope the deal didn't include a Faustian bargain regarding the future of the cup.

cant have been that well funded if they couldnt afford to pay the team wages for June until they won the LVC!

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19 minutes ago, classfve said:

I can imagine that as I write, Larry is having his minions at Latham and Watkins fine-toothing the Deed of Gift to see if any collusion that might have existed between LR and ETNZ regarding sharing technology regarding the Herbie might in any way be in violation of the Deed and void ENTZ's win.  Wouldn't be surprised if this is happening.  Who knows.

I am sure Larry has the guys at Latham and Watkins processing the will for the death of OR Team USA.

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Quote

ETNZ's budget was less than what they spent in San Fran

I distinctly had the impression the SF budget was very large so I'd have certainly hoped that a smaller team with a single smaller boat & shorter period of sailing would be significantly lower cost.

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28 minutes ago, hoom said:

I distinctly had the impression the SF budget was very large so I'd have certainly hoped that a smaller team with a single smaller boat & shorter period of sailing would be significantly lower cost.

Bruno Trouble opined that the ETNZ budget was approx. Euro45-mil which is credible considering the source.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

 

I agree that 30 mil seems a bit over the top .. as far as the control system goes the value in that is the idea of having a system where the operator can follow the feed from sensors with a manual input.

Now that the idea is public knowledge I am quite certain that if the AC50's are retained all of the teams will have their own versions of the system and they will work equally well.

The general idea is hardly new. I recall the use of route planning software was widespread for the online Volvo sailing game. Some I gather had even set up scripts to control the game while they were asleep using input from an online route planning site. It isn't much of a stretch from that kind of thing to "set your foil like this"

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2 hours ago, bob202 said:

 FWIW, if ETNZ's flight control system is as has been explained (and I'm not entirely sure it is) then the IP is not all that complex really - mostly just really novel. Even after explaining how it works verbally the basic concept could be designed from the ground up in a few weeks and then get to fine-tuning/testing it (in various ways - off or on-water). So, unless LR had a basically working unit I would be very surprised if any obligation from ETNZ was anywhere near the numbers being suggested. I'd even say $5m was too high. Again: the way it worked is not that complicated even if it was really creative.

To a T

 

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5 hours ago, classfve said:

I can imagine that as I write, Larry is having his minions at Latham and Watkins fine-toothing the Deed of Gift to see if any collusion that might have existed between LR and ETNZ regarding sharing technology regarding the Herbie might in any way be in violation of the Deed and void ENTZ's win.  Wouldn't be surprised if this is happening.  Who knows.

LR weren't an entrant in the AC so they were in-effect no different to any other tech partner a team might use like Southern Spars, Core, North Sails, Airbus etc.

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4 hours ago, Indio said:

Bruno Trouble opined that the ETNZ budget was approx. Euro45-mil which is credible considering the source.

Which would make this AC's budget about 40% less than last time which was reportedly about $110m.

Then again last time they had more staff, much more stuff going on at the base (hospitality etc), and for a lot longer than this time.

Some of the stuff posted here about budgets makes me think some people don't appreciate how much costs go up with staff numbers. They possibly comprise over half the entire budget for some teams. Even 100 people getting paid an average of about NZ$1600/week (which is a really conservative estimate) is over $8m a year. Any slip up in budgeting or delay in payment and you run out of money in a matter of months. I shudder to think how much money a team like OR was forking out weekly - easily more than 500k a week on salaries alone.

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Anyone guessing budget numbers is simply guessing. The only real accounting we've ever seen posted publicly was the NZ govt report about ETNZ's 2013 finances, something they had required of ETNZ because of them accepting a public grant of taxpayer dollars.

ETNZ had 90 full time employees (more than anyone except LRBAR) but even that can be a misleading indicator since both salaries and amount of outsourcing rates can vary; as can the intrinsic value of things self-produced or purchased. 

In the NZ case, the popular morality narrative being fostered about an overwheling underdog who stood up to an evil-enemy two-headed Monster personified as JS and RC, 'punched above thir financial weight,' performed all kinds of miracles along the way due to Kiwi-only strengths like ingenuity, perseverance, etc etc, makes for wonderfully happy and pride-filled public consumption - all good - but is a bit of a stretch..

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"Anyone guessing budget numbers is simply guessing."

Not entirely true. Keith Mills has stated BAR's budget was £110M and I don't think he was "simply guessing".

 

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3 hours ago, dogwatch said:

"Anyone guessing budget numbers is simply guessing."

Not entirely true. Keith Mills has stated BAR's budget was £110M and I don't think he was "simply guessing".

 

Spinbot is full of shit - and wishes he was white!!:D

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More like an average of 60 fte's actually. And only in last 18 or so months. Plus various external experts. 

Count everyone as full time and 90 makes sense. 

Not even 3 months in Bermuda compared to 2 years for some ... the difference is huge. 

No one spent less. By a long shot. That's the best thing. Oh and they won against the biggest smartest companies/countries in the world. 

Life is good. Especially if we flog the Lions in the next 80 mins. 

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Great interview, thanks. I was pulling for Oracle (home team), but ETNZ was the class of the field in all respects.

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One thing I agree with in the intro monologue was the bit about making the tech less opaque, and drawing the F1 comparison.

Not everything can be disclosed of course but I think there's whole level of understanding that everyone in the AC "paddock" would have that we don't get to know about, and that would be harmless to communicate, especially the visible stuff such as foils and aero.

I'm thinking more content like the F1 tech coverage and more talks at the level of for example that Andy Claughton one that was floating around etc.

And I don't know how practical it is but changing the press protocols so the team interviewees say a little more wouldn't go amiss.

 

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10 hours ago, dogwatch said:

"Anyone guessing budget numbers is simply guessing."

Not entirely true. Keith Mills has stated BAR's budget was £110M and I don't think he was "simply guessing".

 

Agreed, but how many team principals have actually given out numbers? We are all just guessing when it comes to ETNZ, for this cycle.

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The ETNZ numbers for AC34

  • What proportion of Team New Zealand income came from Government investment?
    In total, TNZ raised $179.8 million. Government’s investment accounted for approximately 20 per cent of this.
    The largest total source of funding came from overseas. This equated to $118 million or 66 per cent of the total income. 

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/reports-show-benefits-america’s-cup-nz

More detail:

http://www.majorevents.govt.nz/news-latest/documents-and-images-library/independent-evaluation.pdf

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