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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
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Amati

New prop for saildrive

46 posts in this topic

So the Martec is, after 17 years, about to hit it's use by date, so time to order a new prop.

Amati is designed to be a light air flyer, like 2k TW, and she routinely hits >15k, so folding or feathering?

yanmar saildrive

yanmar 3gm30-93

we like to mosey along at 2200 rpm 5.5-6k or so because it is quiet.

I can't say I ever trusted the martec to actually stop the boat, and I got used to backing up with massive starboard propwalk

Judging by an English Yachting mag test in 1999 or so,  and an A-F rating system

-max prop 2 blade feathering is kind of a B with massive propwalk

-kiwi prop 3 blade feathering is about a B in everything except stopping = A

-Auto Stream 3 blade Stainless feathering rates A+ except for a B in propwalk

-flexofold rates A++ all the way across feathering to folding & racing etc.

-gori Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde reverse/stopping to efficiency/propwalk

-slipstream 2&3 blade folding open well (after living with with a Martec this would be pleasing), A+ efficiency, B propwalk, hard to tell reverse and stopping 

in general, feathering most $$$$, more drag (form and WS?) reverse and stop better (?) less to go wrong?

in general folding, less $$$$, less drag, less likely to perform 100% reverse and stopping.

anyway, any opinions, experience, points of view?  I'm particularly interested in drag differences between folding and feathering.

thanks in advance,

Paul

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Paul,

i had both Gori and Flexofold folding props on my First 27.7. Yanmar G10 sail drive. Same "sailing " performance, but under motor and especially in reverse, the Flexofold was much better.

Rob

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I really liked my Gori. It worked fine in reverse. But I have heard good things about the Flexofold.

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I am not saying the Gori was bad, but the Flexofold had more bite, especially in reverse and added about half a knot to top speed when going forward. IIRC, the Flexofold prop designer was ex Gori......

The Gori certainly "looked" faster......

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I could not have asked for more prop performance in reverse than what I had with the Gori. I could always count on it. Great control. Maybe the Flexofold is better. I never had any reason to complain.

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Bob and Rob- thanks- how would you measure the difference in drag between feathering and folding props when not motoring- ounces?  Pounds?  Percentages?

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3 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

I really liked my Gori. It worked fine in reverse. But I have heard good things about the Flexofold.

 

52 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

I could not have asked for more prop performance in reverse than what I had with the Gori. I could always count on it. Great control. Maybe the Flexofold is better. I never had any reason to complain.

Was the Gori folding or feathering?

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Paul:

My sail drive Gori was folding. The only problem I has was after one winter when I did not use the boat the prop got some growth on it that prevented it from opening. Scared the shit out of me. I thought my sail drive was shot. No forward! No reverse!  Towed the boat over to Seaview, hauled it out and there it was overgrown and stuck shut.

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I've got a Gori three blade folder on Volvo Saildrive-came with the boat. Reverses just fine but it kills me to think what I'm giving up in sailing speed with that three blade. When it comes time to replace, I want to know what delivers the lowest drag when sailing. Screw the reverse capabilities. I can dock just fine under sail if I have to. 

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35 minutes ago, kinardly said:

I've got a Gori three blade folder on Volvo Saildrive-came with the boat. Reverses just fine but it kills me to think what I'm giving up in sailing speed with that three blade. When it comes time to replace, I want to know what delivers the lowest drag when sailing. Screw the reverse capabilities. I can dock just fine under sail if I have to. 

You've never docked with a Martec 2 (racing) blade.  I've seen grown men, famous sailors, weep.

People whisper about sacrificing chickens.  

It doesn't work.

but I know what you mean- the thought of a feathering prop makes me talk more slowly.  But is that superstition?  Or drag I'll feel?

Aaaack!

1st world problems, no?

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i have been talking to the EWOL guys and i will doing a new prop for my J35 with them.  yes, pricy.  but once the prop is on, pitch adjustments can be done in the water saving on lifting fees.  in fact, they claim that you can install their prop while the boat is in the water. 

my current prop is a martec, and i hear they have folded?  can this be confirmed?

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George:

I have not heard from Martec in many years.

 

I had no problem at all with two blade Martec props. There were some simple techniques you needed to learn but nothing complicated. They were fine props.

Why does everyone want to have this reduced to the easiest possible solution. Where has the spirit of adventure gone?

I grew up with Martecs. I survived. Hundreds of us did.

Fucking snowflakes.

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I had a martec folder on the columbia (1gm10 and sd20 sail drive) and could never get it above 5.8 knots in flat water. I put a racing flexofold 2-blade on two years ago and am supremely impressed. routinely above 7 at 3000 rpm in flat water, and as others have said it has great bite in reverse which is important to me because I do a lot of deliveries single handed and getting into the slip is better with a reliable reverse. The price was very good compared to most others except the kiwiprop, and I like it so much I'm going to put one on my Freedom 45 when I get it back in the water. very easy to assemble and install yourself, especially on a sail drive.

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

Paul:

My sail drive Gori was folding. The only problem I has was after one winter when I did not use the boat the prop got some growth on it that prevented it from opening. Scared the shit out of me. I thought my sail drive was shot. No forward! No reverse!  Towed the boat over to Seaview, hauled it out and there it was overgrown and stuck shut.

Yup- we were coming in to our slip at shilshole downwind in 20kput it reverse and the engined revved, and - nothing.  Luckily I had installed the biggest fender I could find on the dock, we bounced off, and just then the Martec unfolded and we went screaming astern into the channel.  The rudder bit, throwing the tiller and yours truely against the port lifelines.  The throttle is on the starboard cockpit side.  The boat starts doing 360's, working herself  miraculously out of the channel, missing sterns and dinghies by inches.  I un pin  myself from the tiller, crawl under it to the throttle handle, and somehow put it in Nuetral.  Lorrie and the dog unpeel themselves from the starboard gate, and 3 guys sitting in their boats try to breathe.  I always come in hot now, with the transmission slightly in reverse, but makes steering a bit sketchy.  I also back out of any channel- once I'm going astern, why take any chances?  It's adventure, baby!

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15 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

George:

I have not heard from Martec in many years.

 

I had no problem at all with two blade Martec props. There were some simple techniques you needed to learn but nothing complicated. They were fine props.

Why does everyone want to have this reduced to the easiest possible solution. Where has the spirit of adventure gone?

I grew up with Martecs. I survived. Hundreds of us did.

Fucking snowflakes.

I'm melting!  I'm melting!

I'm a weenie!

Martec is only doing refurbs and selling what inventory they have, like parts.  They are dealers for some Aussie blades- autostream and slipstream.

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26 minutes ago, George Hackett said:

i have been talking to the EWOL guys and i will doing a new prop for my J35 with them.  yes, pricy.  but once the prop is on, pitch adjustments can be done in the water saving on lifting fees.  in fact, they claim that you can install their prop while the boat is in the water. 

my current prop is a martec, and i hear they have folded?  can this be confirmed?

Folded! :lol:

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I have a flex-o-fold two blade folder on a Yanmar 3YM30 Saildrive.  Been very happy with it.  Strong reverse and virtually no prop walk.

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My only experience is with Flex-o-fold.  Simple.  Easy to maintain. Several comments above confirm good speed and reliability from it both fwd and reverse.  Never had a 'FTR' (failure to reverse).  Don't overthink this.  I don't think you'll really 'feel' the drag difference between most of the two bladed folders/featherers.  

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17 hours ago, Amati said:

You've never docked with a Martec 2 (racing) blade.  I've seen grown men, famous sailors, weep.

People whisper about sacrificing chickens.  

It doesn't work.

but I know what you mean- the thought of a feathering prop makes me talk more slowly.  But is that superstition?  Or drag I'll feel?

Aaaack!

1st world problems, no?

You hit on it exactly. For the record, I've had two boats with Martec 2 folders. Maybe because I didn't know any better.....?

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I upgraded from a Martec to a Gori folder a couple years ago. I had all sorts of issues with the Martec, but they weren't necessarily caused by the design of the Martec. The biggest issue for us was the Martec was a 12 inch prop and the boat should have at least a 15 inch prop on it. I told the Martec guys at a boat show what boat I have and the prop size and they looked at me crosswise and said that isn't right. 

Anyway, performance of the Gori is night and day different in boat speed in both forward and reverse. I'll give most of that to the prop size. That said, in reverse, the Martec was painful to back up with and it had very bad prop walk. I sucked it up and figured it out and dealt with it for several years, but it was an art more than a science, but I couldn't get my wife to even try to back the boat into the slip. The first time I backed up with the Gori, I lined everything up like I did previously with the Martec and was shocked to find that the boat has almost no prop walk in reverse anymore. I still do the same old tricks of high revs to get way on and then reduce once you have steerage, but I don't slide sideways 10 feet before the boat starts moving anymore. So that is nice. 

I also like the idea of the gearing keeping the blades doing the same thing. I had a few times with the Martec where one blade would open and the other wouldn't and it made a lot of noise and vibration. 

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For what it's worth, I really like my 2-blade Max-Prop. Really easy to service, un-feathers instantly in either forward or reverse, have had zero problems. Prop walk in reverse, at least for me, isn't a major issue. I almost always back into my slip and never worry about clobbering the boat next to me.

Similar is th J-Prop, of which I've also heard good things, with a bonus being that pitch can be adjusted while in the water. Nice feature.

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Autostream 3 blade feathering. Flat blades mean it is not as efficient at motoring as it could be. Feathers very easily.

Easy variable external pitch adjustment of reverse means reverse can be pitched super low for "stop now" performance. 

Yeah, prop walk in reverse is significant. 

Every test I've read the Flexofold folding 2 blades do well. For a light boat like yours I'd go that route.

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17 hours ago, George Hackett said:

i have been talking to the EWOL guys and i will doing a new prop for my J35 with them.  yes, pricy.  but once the prop is on, pitch adjustments can be done in the water saving on lifting fees.  in fact, they claim that you can install their prop while the boat is in the water. 

my current prop is a martec, and i hear they have folded?  can this be confirmed?

I had an Autostream Featherstream on my last boat and it was installed by a friend while the boat was in the water.  Pitch changes are also easy to do while the boat is in the water.  The body is a little big though (bigger than a MaxProp), so I have to imagine that it has a bit more drag than a Flex-o-fold.  Prop walk was very minor, especially compared to the fixed 3 blade that was on the boat earlier.

I'd probably buy a flex-o-fold for my boat if I were prop shopping today.  I have a Max Prop 2 blade and it's great, but there is something elegant and simple about the Flex-o-fold.  We also dock in reverse with the 2-blade Max Prop and prop walk has never been an issue.

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For the guys with Max props, how is the propwalk  compared to a fixed prop. I have a 3 blade fixed thinking of the max prop 2 blade.  It's a shaft drive.

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23 hours ago, Rob Zabukovec said:

I am not saying the Gori was bad, but the Flexofold had more bite, especially in reverse and added about half a knot to top speed when going forward. IIRC, the Flexofold prop designer was ex Gori......

The Gori certainly "looked" faster......

And for the record, notwithstanding what I said above, I did have a few time when the Gori wouldn't open, both forward and in reverse. No dramas, just annoying.

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Have had three 30 footers with Martecs...Just had to learn to use the propwalk to your advantage...I actually preferred to spin backwards out in the clear, and back down the fairway and into the slip, as forward performance was so much better then reverse, so could stop the boat easily coming into the slip.  In some high wind situations, that didn't work, but that was typically with the wind blowing out of the slip, so it would stop the boat anyway.

Also had a early J/109.  First prop (don't remember brand) sometimes wouldn't open either...happened when trying to go forward and/or reverse (Ack!  thought I had a transmission issue with a brand new boat!).  After about a year  of troubleshooting, etc we narrowed it down the the prop not opening even when squeaky clean. I got it replaced under warranty with a Flex o Fold.  What a difference.  Opened every time, backed like a dream.  As Amati is not dissimilar from an underbody standpoint (but soo much nicer/better then "just" a J/109), I can't image it wouldn't respond very similarly with a Flexofold, and that you'd really enjoy it's performance, both in forward and in reverse.

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I replaced a fixed blade prop with a Flex-o-fold 3 blade. Installed in the water in under an hour. Couldn't be happier with performance under sail and motor. Under motor it's as good as if not better than the fixed blade. Reverse does take a few more revs to bite, no biggie. Customer service was unusual, knowledgeable humans respond to your email and even answer the phone! Delivered from Denmark three days after I placed the order.

Pricey but worth it to me. If I were looking to save a few pennies or weight I'd look at the KiwiProp. 

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On my old 47 foot cat, I had 2, 3gm30s both driving 2 blade flexofold props, worked great.

I never had a problem setting the anchor while backing down with them, and if the holding was poor, I would know right away.

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1 hour ago, afterguy said:

I replaced a fixed blade prop with a Flex-o-fold 3 blade. Installed in the water in under an hour. Couldn't be happier with performance under sail and motor. Under motor it's as good as if not better than the fixed blade. Reverse does take a few more revs to bite, no biggie. Customer service was unusual, knowledgeable humans respond to your email and even answer the phone! Delivered from Denmark three days after I placed the order.

Pricey but worth it to me. If I were looking to save a few pennies or weight I'd look at the KiwiProp. 

pricey compared to what? it's cheaper than an equivalent max prop or gori. it's only pricey if you're comparing it to a fixed blade (or the kiwi, that's a real deal)

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So the Martec did it again- perfect, smooth approach, 1' out from the dock, apply reverse smoothly yet firmly.  NOTHING.

But you see, my brilliant wife, realizing the downsides of hanging a Martec under our boats belly, hangs the largest bumper I've seen on the bow, and Amati silently and gracefully bounces left and stops, no damage, yay!

i am sending Flexofold info for a bid tomorrow.  But we will keep the magic bow bumper.  I don't know how it works, but as vertical as the bow is, it does work a treat.

God bless brilliant wives!

 

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I'll weigh in as I just bought a new prop.

Boat - 5500 kg cruiser racer - 35ft with Yanmar 3GM30 and saildrive - is used mostly for club racing and some cruising

Old Gori 2 blade folder was end of life with worn teeth.

I ended up getting a 2 blade folder from Slipstream - really well engineered out of SS.

The difference between the old Gori is massive - much better speed at all RPM - and reverse works well, with little prop-walk - I highly recommend to anyone considering a new prop.

http://www.seahawk.com.au/prodfolding.php

 

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On 7/7/2017 at 8:53 AM, Bob Perry said:

George:

I have not heard from Martec in many years.

 

I had no problem at all with two blade Martec props. There were some simple techniques you needed to learn but nothing complicated. They were fine props.

Why does everyone want to have this reduced to the easiest possible solution. Where has the spirit of adventure gone?

I grew up with Martecs. I survived. Hundreds of us did.

Fucking snowflakes.

Hi bob.  i loved the Martec's i have had.  and my spirit of adventure is what has led me to try out the EWOLs.  part of the reason is also that we have moved north of Manila to Subic and this means at least a ten hour trip one way for the J to get to subic.  i believe i can cut the travel time with the feathering 3 blades.  interestingly, on our other boat, the Mills43, i went with the Gori 3blade folder for a decrease in my IRC rating.  and i love the overdrive of that prop.  basically you put the boat in reverse up to at least 3kts, then, put the gears in neutral, keeping the boat going backwards. then put it in forward.  this keeps the blades open in reverse, but spinning in forward and hence the overdrive.

the reason i asked about Martec folding was they never got back to me about a new prop for my J35.  then when talking to EWOL, they told me that one of the sales rep of Martec was now working for them!?

oh well, such is life!!

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  I think you need to define what you want for motoring performance a bit better. A folding 2 blade will always have the least drag, but coupled with that is the lowest forward & reverse motoring performance, & more vibration. A 3 blade will have much better powering either direction & maneuvering, and response to throttle input is almost instant. A folding prop will have slightly more drag (than 2 blade) due to increased diameter of folded unit. A feathering prop will have still more drag as blades are always in flow. Can you actually measure/feel the difference between ANY of these folders/feathers in action on your boat??? I see no way to measure that in real life. So I would look at how the engine/boat is used to determine prop type.

   I've been very happy with all the 3 blade Max props I've used extensively, and one trip with a Gori 3 blade folder was also impressive, esp the 'overdrive' function.

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3 hours ago, longy said:

  I think you need to define what you want for motoring performance a bit better. A folding 2 blade will always have the least drag, but coupled with that is the lowest forward & reverse motoring performance, & more vibration. A 3 blade will have much better powering either direction & maneuvering, and response to throttle input is almost instant. A folding prop will have slightly more drag (than 2 blade) due to increased diameter of folded unit. A feathering prop will have still more drag as blades are always in flow. Can you actually measure/feel the difference between ANY of these folders/feathers in action on your boat??? I see no way to measure that in real life. So I would look at how the engine/boat is used to determine prop type.

   I've been very happy with all the 3 blade Max props I've used extensively, and one trip with a Gori 3 blade folder was also impressive, esp the 'overdrive' function.

yes i understand what you are driving at.  now that we are moving up north, the J35 will make the trip to subic and back to manila at least once every month.  so it i believe that for club racing and the monthly delivery, i may be very happy with the EWOL.  only time will tell.

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I've had a KIWI for 12 years and love it.  Reverse is instantaneous with no prop walk. Blades are composite and can easily be changed if damaged. (No damage in 12 seasons.) Great service direct from the New Zeeland manufacturer.

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6 hours ago, longy said:

  I think you need to define what you want for motoring performance a bit better. A folding 2 blade will always have the least drag, but coupled with that is the lowest forward & reverse motoring performance, & more vibration. A 3 blade will have much better powering either direction & maneuvering, and response to throttle input is almost instant. A folding prop will have slightly more drag (than 2 blade) due to increased diameter of folded unit. A feathering prop will have still more drag as blades are always in flow. Can you actually measure/feel the difference between ANY of these folders/feathers in action on your boat??? I see no way to measure that in real life. So I would look at how the engine/boat is used to determine prop type.

   I've been very happy with all the 3 blade Max props I've used extensively, and one trip with a Gori 3 blade folder was also impressive, esp the 'overdrive' function.

That is the question- especially deployed behind a saildrive.  We did a sail around Shaw today. No wind up to 12K, riptides etc.  a bit of motoring so as not to bump into rocks etc.  left me wondering what difference the sailing would have been with a 3 blade folder or featherer, or even a 2 blade featherer-

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19 hours ago, Dark Cloud said:

I'll weigh in as I just bought a new prop.

Boat - 5500 kg cruiser racer - 35ft with Yanmar 3GM30 and saildrive - is used mostly for club racing and some cruising

Old Gori 2 blade folder was end of life with worn teeth.

I ended up getting a 2 blade folder from Slipstream - really well engineered out of SS.

The difference between the old Gori is massive - much better speed at all RPM - and reverse works well, with little prop-walk - I highly recommend to anyone considering a new prop.

http://www.seahawk.com.au/prodfolding.php

 

I'm sending an inquiry to slipstream too.

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My thoughts, from sailing up in your area a couple of times: there's a lot of stuff suspended in the water column. I think one could make a strong case for the 3-blade Gori folder for your boat. It's got thick blades, folds out of the way, & has the 'overdrive' function. But you have to be certain of your prop numbers as they are fixed. That's a big advantage of the feathering units, adjustable pitch.

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We re-propped a custom 30' / 4700#  / Volvo sail-drive race boat with a Flexofold after doing the same homework you're doing. 

We used the prop for about twenty hours (less than a season) in fresh water.

Sold the boat with the old prop, the new one is sitting on a shelf.

PM me if you think it might be appropriate & I'll track down the details.

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Is there some reason a saildrive changes the Martec's performance in reverse versus shaft drive? I mean it when I say I had absolutely no issues with reversing Martec 2 blade folders on two previous boats with direct drive. And the assertion that efficiency in forward is compromised versus 3 blade geared props like Maxprop is exactly the opposite of the information that was coming out of published tests fifteen-twenty years back. 2 blade props are usually more efficient in forward but there will be more vibration( goes for airplane props, too) than three or four bladers. 

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5 hours ago, kinardly said:

Is there some reason a saildrive changes the Martec's performance in reverse versus shaft drive? I mean it when I say I had absolutely no issues with reversing Martec 2 blade folders on two previous boats with direct drive. And the assertion that efficiency in forward is compromised versus 3 blade geared props like Maxprop is exactly the opposite of the information that was coming out of published tests fifteen-twenty years back. 2 blade props are usually more efficient in forward but there will be more vibration( goes for airplane props, too) than three or four bladers. 

Geared or ungeared?

 

12 hours ago, BigWaveDave said:

We re-propped a custom 30' / 4700#  / Volvo sail-drive race boat with a Flexofold after doing the same homework you're doing. 

We used the prop for about twenty hours (less than a season) in fresh water.

Sold the boat with the old prop, the new one is sitting on a shelf.

PM me if you think it might be appropriate & I'll track down the details.

Don't the Volvo and Yanmar saildrives turn indifferent directions?  Thought I heard that...

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On 7/8/2017 at 10:14 PM, silversailor said:

I've had a KIWI for 12 years and love it.  Reverse is instantaneous with no prop walk. Blades are composite and can easily be changed if damaged. (No damage in 12 seasons.) Great service direct from the New Zeeland manufacturer.

I see kiwiprop now has models for engines with more than 50 hp. That was a limiter a few years ago when I was looking for one for my Freedom 45 (76 hp turbo)

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On 7/7/2017 at 2:49 AM, George Hackett said:

i have been talking to the EWOL guys and i will doing a new prop for my J35 with them.  yes, pricy.  but once the prop is on, pitch adjustments can be done in the water saving on lifting fees.  in fact, they claim that you can install their prop while the boat is in the water. 

my current prop is a martec, and i hear they have folded?  can this be confirmed?

And works much better in reverse too...

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18 hours ago, Amati said:

Geared or ungeared?

 

Don't the Volvo and Yanmar saildrives turn indifferent directions?  Thought I heard that...

Not geared.

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I have the Autostream 3 blade feathering on my saildrive and have no complaints. It is well engineered and well made out of SS. Among the nice details are the blades turn in replaceable bushings (1000 + hours so far and no need to replace yet). I had a Variprop 4 blade feathering originally and it vibrated quite a lot. Theories were either the blades were too close to the drive leg (much further away on the Autostream), or that 4 bladed on a four banger with nearly a 2:1 reduction was a bad idea - too much resonance. The Autostream vibrates noticeably less, cost less, performs as well, and I like being able to set the reverse pitch finer than forward. It has no more prop walk in reverse than the Variprop. The hub is the same size as my saildrive hub, so there is no extra drag. 

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