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Teams that were bad sports during AC35

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Groupama has the smallest budget and team. Asking them for free help or complaining about them countering that they'll want compensation is pretty petty. IIRC they were eliminated but still racing and working on their boat. Why should they just give it away? They have pride. 

 

As I said in the other thread, it's like asking the beggar for his one dollar because he can't live on it anywhere. While there's Oracle, Artemis, Softbank with plenty of dough just sitting there. But let's ask the poor man because he can't live on his dollar. Then get offended when he counters.  

There's enough legitimate gripes with Oracle, why are we looking to stir up more shit with everyone? Really think it's good old New Zealand vs the world? I know French, German and many Italians who rooted for us, don't start actin like cunts after winning. 

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42 minutes ago, Costro said:

Quite sad really. I liked the French. I'm sure they had their reasons. 

None of which are acceptable. If they'd refused then that would be fine. But trying to extort a huge sum from them???

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55 minutes ago, Miffy said:

As I said in the other thread, it's like asking the beggar for his one dollar because he can't live on it anywhere. While there's Oracle, Artemis, Softbank with plenty of dough just sitting there. But let's ask the poor man because he can't live on his dollar...

I think you'll find they asked Groupama since they were the only team eliminated at that stage.

Pretty obvious if you think about it for more than a couple of seconds.

ETNZ probably know GTF had a pile of already sunk-citems ost sitting there doing nothing (not consumables, more like tools, tooling, etc) and asked. If there was a cost asked I imagine it would have been for things of value which can't be reused - like carbon etc. But to use a universal (spare) piece for a few days before giving it back seems a bit on the nose. That said, Matteo likes throwing the cat among the pigeons with his comments so can probably assume he's given the story without enough detail to make a fair assessment of it.

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Shows how distorted the AC tradition was this time around with Oracle funding pseudo challengers and framework deals - challengers should be expected to work together to try and take the Cup from the defender.  Oracle getting into all these issues deserved to lose.  I for one simply could not have stomached this Godfather strategy prevailing...

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Na blame the framework agreement and the whole unholy alliance underneath it - may we never see the likes of it again even if it means the grip of current and future holders of the cup pales in comparison

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The framework agreement should not have happened. It was not in the spirit of The Cup. Like it's been stated above, the challenges are supposed to work together to win the cup off the defender. Wussell the Weasel and Larry the loser corrupted the spirit, ethos and morality of the competition into their own self fulfilling and vision of 'their' Cup. They gathered up little boys who scampered around worshiping at Oracle and slurped up the vision. They all agreed and knelt at the alter and kissed the ring of Larry the loser. The signed thir hope away. 

The spirit of their individual teams now sold to Wussell and Larry could only meet with one outcome. The teams who signed also signed away any hope of holding The CUP. Instead, they hold their heads in shame. 

The team that didn't? Well, they're a bit busy right now......

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"The British lent Team New Zealand a hydraulic ram"

And at the point only only of BAR or ETNZ was moving forwards.Yet the only public acknowledgement of that was as a side-line in a piece shitting on the French for "bad sportsmanship".

So de Nora shows himself to be another billionaire arsehole and the NZ Herald continues its journalistic traditions.

 

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6 minutes ago, Barnacle Bill said:

The framework agreement should not have happened. It was not in the spirit of The Cup. Like it's been stated above, the challenges are supposed to work together to win the cup off the defender. Wussell the Weasel and Larry the loser corrupted the spirit, ethos and morality of the competition into their own self fulfilling and vision of 'their' Cup. They gathered up little boys who scampered around worshiping at Oracle and slurped up the vision. They all agreed and knelt at the alter and kissed the ring of Larry the loser. The signed thir hope away. 

The spirit of their individual teams now sold to Wussell and Larry could only meet with one outcome. The teams who signed also signed away any hope of holding The CUP. Instead, they hold their heads in shame. 

The team that didn't? Well, they're a bit busy right now......

Meh! I don't care if the challengers don't gang up on the defender. 

Nor do I much care that GTF didn't help. What I object to is that they tried to extort  €300K from etnz when all their people were already there and would likely only have needed a dozen or so for a couple of days. That's some hourly rate right there. Cock suckers! 

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4 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

"The British lent Team New Zealand a hydraulic ram"

And at the point only only of BAR or ETNZ was moving forwards.Yet the only public acknowledgement of that was as a side-line in a piece shitting on the French for "bad sportsmanship".

So de Nora shows himself to be another billionaire arsehole and the NZ Herald continues its journalistic traditions.

 

Coming from a country that had New of the world as a newspaper.  Have you forgot the Milly Dowler story and how this newspaper hacked a dead girls phone. Don't recall the herald doing that. What about the Sun blaming Liverpool fans for all the deaths at the Hillsborough stadium. Don't recall the Herald doing anything similar. 

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15 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

"The British lent Team New Zealand a hydraulic ram"

Let me see here, the British lent the Kiwi's a hydraulic ram when still in a best of series against them.

An outstanding piece of sportsmanship. ETNZ might have a few scores to settle with other syndicates, but we should remember BAR and how they helped when we were at deaths door. 

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Extortion - noun

the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.
 
There was no force, there were no threats, there was no extortion, there was no coercion. There was a request for something and a price established, sounds like a negotiation to me. You have no idea for what ETNZ went looking, perhaps it was a one-design wing element - who knows. With out a lot more information, no one here can say.
 

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"With out a lot more information, no one here can say."

Sure.

Yet de Nora has chosen to feed it to the press.

Another billionaire arsehole.

 

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more here

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11886240

Within two hours of the capsize, Team NZ asked the French for help with equipment and parts and they refused, and then said they would consider it for a fee of €300,000 ($468,500). That offer was abruptly withdrawn, most likely,  once Oracle got wind of it.

Neither Groupama nor Oracle responded to requests for comment.

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"moast lykly"

too werds beluvved ov konspirissy theerists sints the dorn ov tym

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15 minutes ago, snaerk said:

"moast lykly"

too werds beluvved ov konspirissy theerists sints the dorn ov tym

And climate change supporters....  :ph34r:

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Groupama Team France

Just remember we Kiwis have a long memory

Id Like A Big Mac and Chips ...............That will be 300,000 euros please

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10 minutes ago, rgeek said:

Enjoying your self from your bully pulpit lads? No class

Agreed. A cunt is a cunt even if he's a kiwi cunt. 

 

I can't believe the entitlement required to complain about a competitor who doesn't want to help you, then complain when they counteroffer for money. 

And if the couch sailors want to think about it, how fucking insulting is it to get a request because "oh you don't need your gear and crew cuz you're not advancing" - my response would be fuck you I'm trying to sail the best race I can with the boat and crew I have. 

I wanted ETNZ to win and save the cup from the framework nonsense, just wish the partisan provisional mentality won't make AC36 a silly cunt fest.  

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5 hours ago, Miffy said:

Agreed. A cunt is a cunt even if he's a kiwi cunt. 

 

I can't believe the entitlement required to complain about a competitor who doesn't want to help you, then complain when they counteroffer for money. 

And if the couch sailors want to think about it, how fucking insulting is it to get a request because "oh you don't need your gear and crew cuz you're not advancing" - my response would be fuck you I'm trying to sail the best race I can with the boat and crew I have. 

I wanted ETNZ to win and save the cup from the framework nonsense, just wish the partisan provisional mentality won't make AC36 a silly cunt fest.  

You are right they had the right to refuse and I have no problem with that. But to attempt to profiteer from it is low.

Don't want to help? Just say no.

It's a bit like stopping for a car on the side of the road and offering the use of your jumper leads for $1000. Better just to keep driving rather than be a cunt like that.

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Matteo always came across as a reasonable person who wanted to stay out of the spotlight most of the time. Perhaps his letting fly at the french is a symptom that he is pissed off about the amount of rumored shit that was dissed out to TNZ over the whole event. Hopefully someone will spill all the dirt in the future.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

You are right they had the right to refuse and I have no problem with that. But to attempt to profiteer from it is low.

Don't want to help? Just say no.

It's a bit like stopping for a car on the side of the road and offering the use of your jumper leads for $1000. Better just to keep driving rather than be a cunt like that.

Obviously I don't know what was discussed between the parties or internally in the French team. I can see a team manager counting pennies for a year thinking okay how much will it cost me. Knowing how complicated EU and French labor laws can be, I don't even want to pretend like there is someway the team management can ask employees to work outside of their scope of employment when they're probably already maxing out overtime nonsense. Who knows. 

It just seems equally petty to get provisional about it after winning esp when obviously Oracle lost, the cup has been saved and it's time to be classy. 

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15 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Obviously I don't know what was discussed between the parties or internally in the French team. I can see a team manager counting pennies for a year thinking okay how much will it cost me. Knowing how complicated EU and French labor laws can be, I don't even want to pretend like there is someway the team management can ask employees to work outside of their scope of employment when they're probably already maxing out overtime nonsense. Who knows. 

It just seems equally petty to get provisional about it after winning esp when obviously Oracle lost, the cup has been saved and it's time to be classy. 

Like I said, just keep driving. 

No need to demand  $1000 for use of their jumper leads.

Sure he probably should have kept his mouth shut. But then I've not defended DE Nora actions just as I've not defended Daltons. 

But what GTF did seems pretty slimy to me.

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To start with, i thought what a bunch of C#*ts the french were but the more indigent some NZers have got, the more I began to realise this doesn't pass the sniff test (it doesn't smell right). I first tried a bit of logic and that came up with a possible explanation I now am pretty certain is true and shows De Nora to be the c#*t.

The French were the only team out of the cup, so they were the logical team to approach for parts. The only parts of significance that they could have were some of the one design components. Then consider it from the French point of view. there was still a decent chance that one of the teams that had signed the accord could still win, which meant the AC50's had real value. To give that away would have been stupid, but then they realised so long as they had enough money to build another, it wasn't a problem. I suggest that it was not unreasonable to initially say no, then to realise there was a way forward that wouldn't hurt the team. 

The big issue is why the offer was then rescinded. I did not buy the "Oracle told them to" story. I thought they simply had a change of mind which wasn't particularly good thing to do. Then I found the real reason. There were strict limits on the number of each one design elements that a team could use. Turns out the reason why the offer was rescinded was because the rules said ETNZ couldn't use the parts anyway. This was known by some in Bermuda, as I found out when I asked a few questions.

Matteo has taken parts of a story, which maybe he didn't know in full, and parsed it into the French being in the wrong. It's not hard to see how you can go from the rules prevent it to Oracle prevented it. Maybe De Nora didn't know the whole story and drew his own conclusions. Maybe the frustrations of ETNZ being the outsiders lead to him hitting out at the insiders when he could. Whatever the reason and while it is always possible that I might have been spun a load of BS, I am now convinced the story as told is bogus.

 

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^ Thanks for clarifying rules Team_GBR.

Personally, even if it were permitted, I certainly don't think it would've been "unsporting" of TF not to help out - I don't think it is reasonable to expect a competitive team with its own issues, requirements and external pressures to come to another team's aid.

I did however find it a bit interesting that TF's manager was doing expert comments for the TV commentary when the pitch-pole happened, and when asked he started reeling off all the bits that were broken and how GD would be counting the cost of every bit. In the face of that, it did then seem kinda ironic for them to then go and try to squeeze ETNZ for cash!

What the whole epsiode does highlight for me, is how skewed the rules were against ALL the challengers:

  • The one-boat rule
  • The limited foils rule
  • The single wing design
  • The multiple races per day rule during the playoffs
  • The limited safe wind range of the boats
  • No lay days during the playoffs

Off the top of my head all these rules (and probably plenty more I've omitted) greatly increased the likelihood of gear failure being a decisive factor in the Challenger playoffs or increased the luck factor (ie. foil choice on multi race days) rather than a true test of the better team.

GBR were massively disadvantaged when their wing failed, Sweden suffered 2 losses due to gear-failure in adverse weather conditions, and Japan suffered costly damage on the pitch-pole day. None of that was necessary had the class-rules and/or regatta format been fairer.

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8 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

...Turns out the reason why the offer was rescinded was because the rules said ETNZ couldn't use the parts anyway. This was known by some in Bermuda, as I found out when I asked a few questions....

So in your attempt to criticise ETNZ - again!! - you would have us believe that ETNZ's rules guru Russell Green did not know about "the rules"?? Let me guess: your "sources" for the French refusal story are the same who fed you information on how fast and advanced Artemis was, that their "super-human" coffee-grinders were delivering all the hydraulics they needed, and your notorious claim that they had designed "more efficient" hydraulics LOL!! - with all their hot-shot Pom olympics sailors, right??

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1 minute ago, Indio said:

So in your attempt to criticise ETNZ - again!! - you would have us believe that ETNZ's rules guru Russell Green did not know about "the rules"?? 

You are a bit sensitive, very poor at comprehension and trying to add 2+2 and getting 5. I was in no way criticising ETNZ but instead I was criticising  the person who put the story out there. You are just as bad, being one if the really unsporting winners on here that gives the impression that all NZers are bad sports (which they are not).

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You haven't answered the question: you would have us believe that ETNZ's rules guru would not have known about the rules?? Because this question is key to the veracity of your story from your "contacts"..

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45 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

The big issue is why the offer was then rescinded. I did not buy the "Oracle told them to" story. I thought they simply had a change of mind which wasn't particularly good thing to do. Then I found the real reason. There were strict limits on the number of each one design elements that a team could use. Turns out the reason why the offer was rescinded was because the rules said ETNZ couldn't use the parts anyway. This was known by some in Bermuda, as I found out when I asked a few questions

Interesting.  I wonder how they got away with using the BAR ram? Not one design?

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6 minutes ago, ezyb said:

Interesting.  I wonder how they got away with using the BAR ram? Not one design?

No limits on how many you use and not a one design component.

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2 minutes ago, ezyb said:

Interesting.  I wonder how they got away with using the BAR ram?

Hydraulics (system & actuators) are not one-design equipment. But it may have been a hydraulic ram used used in a tool for bending or straightening structures, or lifting (e.g. Enerpac). Highly unlikely it would have been an actuating ram for the foils or wing or rudders..

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20 minutes ago, Indio said:

You haven't answered the question: you would have us believe that ETNZ's rules guru would not have known about the rules?? Because this question is key to the veracity of your story from your "contacts"..

I didn't comment on it because it is only relevant in your mind. It is entirely possible that it was the ETNZ rules guru who spotted that they couldn't use a one design part that has limits on the numbers allowed. That doesn't change the story at all. What i know as fact is that the rules state a limit on the one design components. ETNZ had used that limit and therefore they couldn't use the parts they initially asked the French for. If it was their own rules guru who spotted that, all credit to ETNZ for doing the right thing and before you ask, i think it is entirely possible that a request went to the french before the ETNZ rules guy was consulted.

Again, you are trying to make something out of nothing. In no way am I trying to imply anything or am I attacking ETNZ, unless you really believe that de Nora was being a spokesperson for ETNZ and making an official comment on behalf of the team,  which I do not.  I should add there is one other explanation, and that is that the journalist has manipulated De Nora's words, which on past track record of that publication is possible.

You remind me of an old saying "just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't ll out to get you". This seems to be behind a lot of posts by a small group of NZ fanboys. Relax, don't think everything is an attack on ETNZ. Enjoy the well deserved glow of victory. Your team "done good".

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2 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

...What i know as fact is that the rules state a limit on the one design components. ETNZ had used that limit and therefore they couldn't use the parts they initially asked the French for. ...

So do you actually know what one-design parts were requested from the French, or are you just speculating as usual? Let's see...one-design parts:

1: Hulls - well, ETNZ's hulls were not damaged, nor would the French ones have been useful to them because of all the hydraulic plumbing and electrical switching wiring, optical fibre plumbing, cyclors stations...so no, they would not have asked for hulls;

2: Wing spar - ETNZ's wind spar was not irreparably damaged, and the French one would not have been compatible with the ETNZ controls and hydraulic trimming hardware, so they would not have asked for wing spar

3: Jib - ETNZ had several spares, allowed under the Class Rule

...doesn't leave out too many "one-design parts" for ETNZ to "borrow" from the French, does it now??

 

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2 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

The big issue is why the offer was then rescinded. I did not buy the "Oracle told them to" story. I thought they simply had a change of mind which wasn't particularly good thing to do. Then I found the real reason. There were strict limits on the number of each one design elements that a team could use. Turns out the reason why the offer was rescinded was because the rules said ETNZ couldn't use the parts anyway. This was known by some in Bermuda, as I found out when I asked a few questions.

Spare is your keyboard diarrhea. As if, after the rubbish you've posted here recently, you have any credibility to suggest ETNZ didn't know the rules etc, or that you know "some in Bermuda" who have access to any decent intel.

Occam's razor fool. ETNZ went to GTF for some help in the way of equipment or raw materials, not boat parts - neither of which breaches the rules. Possibly equipment or consumables for curing carbon or for use on wings. Many of those would be consumables and the cost of which pretty well worked out. If GTF wanted money it was likely with good reason - it costed them money and they would rather be paid up-front instead of later (given ETNZ's financial situation would have likely been fairly well know by all teams). Maybe it was offered with an opportunistic "desperation" tax which ETNZ balked at.

De Nora kept quiet during the cup but since it's finished he's had a whole lot to say, much of it directed at OR or others. It seems like he just likes portraying the world the way he sees it as being fact when sometimes it's close to a convenient retelling of events with a fair dose of personal slant.

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In that case it's easy to see why ETNZ became such an outsider.

It's beginning to look less like Oracle Poodles and more like Them Lot Who Didn't Do What Ever the Fuck We Wanted.

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4 hours ago, bob202 said:

Spare is your keyboard diarrhea. As if, after the rubbish you've posted here recently, you have any credibility to suggest ETNZ didn't know the rules etc, or that you know "some in Bermuda" who have access to any decent intel.

Occam's razor fool. ETNZ went to GTF for some help in the way of equipment or raw materials, not boat parts - neither of which breaches the rules. Possibly equipment or consumables for curing carbon or for use on wings. Many of those would be consumables and the cost of which pretty well worked out. If GTF wanted money it was likely with good reason - it costed them money and they would rather be paid up-front instead of later (given ETNZ's financial situation would have likely been fairly well know by all teams). Maybe it was offered with an opportunistic "desperation" tax which ETNZ balked at.

De Nora kept quiet during the cup but since it's finished he's had a whole lot to say, much of it directed at OR or others. It seems like he just likes portraying the world the way he sees it as being fact when sometimes it's close to a convenient retelling of events with a fair dose of personal slant.

Doesn't pass the sniff test. $300k for raw materials? Again, doesn't pass the sniff test. That's almost enough to build a boat! Equipment? You really expect anybody to believe that GTF had more equipment than ETNZ? Did they forget their grinder when they came over from NZ? If it was just equipment or materials, why didn't ETNZ ask somebody else? We know that BAR gave them something they needed. You expect us to believe that GTF was the only team that had critical equipment and materials, the worst funded and least prepared team in the cup! Then you expect us to believe that GTF asked for $300k for things that could only have been worth a few thousand dollars. You really think GTF asked for $300k for a few dollars of "stuff". None of that adds up. If it had been materials or equipment, how did they manage without and still do such a good job of the repairs, or do you also want us to believe tgat ETNZ asked GTF or things they didn't really need? You pull out Occam's razor but don't apply it.

What is the only thing that GTF had available that couldn't be got from any other team that would have made ETNZ's life easier, that GTF would have thought there was any chance of being paid $300k for?  The only thing is one design components for the boat. If it was anything else, they would have been able to get it elsewhere? 

 

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17 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Doesn't pass the sniff test. $300k for raw materials? Again, doesn't pass the sniff test. That's almost enough to build a boat! Equipment? You really expect anybody to believe that GTF had more equipment than ETNZ? Did they forget their grinder when they came over from NZ? If it was just equipment or materials, why didn't ETNZ ask somebody else? We know that BAR gave them something they needed. You expect us to believe that GTF was the only team that had critical equipment and materials, the worst funded and least prepared team in the cup! Then you expect us to believe that GTF asked for $300k for things that could only have been worth a few thousand dollars...

What is the only thing that GTF had available that couldn't be got from any other team that would have made ETNZ's life easier, that GTF would have thought there was any chance of being paid $300k for?  The only thing is one design components for the boat. If it was anything else, they would have been able to get it elsewhere? 

 

Well BAR lent ETNZ a piece of equipment so the point is proven already - rendering most of your post pointless.

If you can do X job with 1 piece of equipment (that all the teams needed) then is stands to reason you can do the same job faster or two at a time if you have an extra piece of equipment. That applies for vacuum systems (for carbon work), heating/autoclave systems/proxies (ditto), hydraulic presses, machining tools etc.. for any number of tasks needed to repair a boat quicker.

There are a number of items/materials that can add up to fairly big $ in short order if you need a certain type/spec. Perhaps ETNZ could get it but getting it from GTF would take hours as opposed to days via other sources. Perhaps it was ultrasound equipment to look for cracks and GTF thought they'd try and offload theirs to ETNZ since they didn't really need it anymore.

And no, I do not expect anyone to believe that the worst funded team would have something ETNZ needed. I expect it to be obvious to even the dimmest of intellects that you'd first go to the only team which is no longer your competition or have any skin in the game. I.e. GTF. Again, another point you've read, made reference to but then completely ignore because it doesn't support your views.

As for the one design components. Do you even bother to read what other posters have written above?

Learn what Occam's Razor is then go be a muppet elsewhere.

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34 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Doesn't pass the sniff test. $300k for raw materials? Again, doesn't pass the sniff test. That's almost enough to build a boat! Equipment? You really expect anybody to believe that GTF had more equipment than ETNZ? Did they forget their grinder when they came over from NZ? If it was just equipment or materials, why didn't ETNZ ask somebody else? We know that BAR gave them something they needed. You expect us to believe that GTF was the only team that had critical equipment and materials, the worst funded and least prepared team in the cup! Then you expect us to believe that GTF asked for $300k for things that could only have been worth a few thousand dollars. You really think GTF asked for $300k for a few dollars of "stuff". None of that adds up. If it had been materials or equipment, how did they manage without and still do such a good job of the repairs, or do you also want us to believe tgat ETNZ asked GTF or things they didn't really need? You pull out Occam's razor but don't apply it.

What is the only thing that GTF had available that couldn't be got from any other team that would have made ETNZ's life easier, that GTF would have thought there was any chance of being paid $300k for?  The only thing is one design components for the boat. If it was anything else, they would have been able to get it elsewhere? 

 

Let me think...If I was in charge of the french team, id be very quick to respond to such a story, if what was being said was untrue. However on their website nothing

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7 hours ago, Indio said:

So do you actually know what one-design parts were requested from the French, or are you just speculating as usual? Let's see...one-design parts:

1: Hulls - well, ETNZ's hulls were not damaged, nor would the French ones have been useful to them because of all the hydraulic plumbing and electrical switching wiring, optical fibre plumbing, cyclors stations...so no, they would not have asked for hulls;

2: Wing spar - ETNZ's wind spar was not irreparably damaged, and the French one would not have been compatible with the ETNZ controls and hydraulic trimming hardware, so they would not have asked for wing spar

3: Jib - ETNZ had several spares, allowed under the Class Rule

...doesn't leave out too many "one-design parts" for ETNZ to "borrow" from the French, does it now??

 

The whole story is fake news which has been twisted to make a story.

 

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Perhaps they thought it was beneath then to respond.

Or may be they didn't read it as it wasn't published in French. 

Or may be they're all off doing what ever they are set to do next like the tour d france.

The French run all the commercially viable racing in the world after all.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

 

What is the only thing that GTF had available that couldn't be got from any other team that would have made ETNZ's life easier, that GTF would have thought there was any chance of being paid $300k for?  The only thing is one design components for the boat. If it was anything else, they would have been able to get it elsewhere? 

 

So your claim of "one-design" items is based on a flawed process of elimination, eh Watson?? You're so full of shit!! None of the one-design items Groupama had were of any use to ETNZ as I've explained in post 37 which you'ignored because it doesn't fit your fake information from your fake contacts in Bermuda.

And fyi, they wanted EURO300k not $300k, but then again your credibility has been flushed down the dunny before this latest BS - from someone who pretends to be a Team_GBR supporter but kept dissing them right throughout the AC35 events, and kept a running commentary of how well Artemis with the British sailors were going to thrash everyone....

Just fuck off and jump off a cliff into a pile of crap where you'll be right at home!!

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44 minutes ago, Indio said:

So your claim of "one-design" items is based on a flawed process of elimination, eh Watson?? You're so full of shit!! None of the one-design items Groupama had were of any use to ETNZ as I've explained in post 37 which you'ignored because it doesn't fit your fake information from your fake contacts in Bermuda.

+ 1.

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On 8/07/2017 at 4:25 PM, dogwatch said:

"The British lent Team New Zealand a hydraulic ram"

And at the point only only of BAR or ETNZ was moving forwards.Yet the only public acknowledgement of that was as a side-line in a piece shitting on the French for "bad sportsmanship".

So de Nora shows himself to be another billionaire arsehole and the NZ Herald continues its journalistic traditions.

 

That like a beggar asking you for your nose picking just before you pop it in your mouth. Dont know about whinging pom culture with page three level journalism that devoted 2 column centimeters to the entire AC campaign, but here in NZ when someone asks for hand they are usually given help.

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I think people here underestimate the cost of a wing, well over a million bucks per would not surprise me at all. If you recall, time was of the essence and TNZ could have (as proved) rebuilt the wing, the problem was could they in time? TF had wing components that would have sped up the process, they were basically a bunch of g-string wearing, vacuous, self absorbed snail eating cunts who didnt want to help because they wanted the AC gravy train to continue, well bend over TF and get ready to get you collective shitholes reamed by a flotilla of giant red and black bowsprits coming in at 40 knots.

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1 hour ago, Gutterblack said:

I think people here underestimate the cost of a wing, well over a million bucks per would not surprise me at all. If you recall, time was of the essence and TNZ could have (as proved) rebuilt the wing, the problem was could they in time? TF had wing components that would have sped up the process, they were basically a bunch of g-string wearing, vacuous, self absorbed snail eating...

You forgot: cheese-eating.

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Well, given the little we know from what happened, it is difficult to have an opinion and all the dicussion above illustrate that.

For me the point is not what (technically speaking) led to this situation. What I really find unelegant (if not dangerous) is the way De Nora is leveraging this story in the "look how NZers won this race against the Amlericans the French all odds". Having a country be proud of such an achievement is great. Introducing a parallel story to enforce some sort of nationalism is a problem to me.I dont know much about the guy but I would not be surprised if de Nora was into politics in NZ?

I look forward to get a bit more first hand info about this story.

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11 hours ago, Indio said:

So your claim of "one-design" items is based on a flawed process of elimination, eh Watson?? You're so full of shit!! None of the one-design items Groupama had were of any use to ETNZ as I've explained in post 37 which you'ignored because it doesn't fit your fake information from your fake contacts in Bermuda.

And fyi, they wanted EURO300k not $300k, but then again your credibility has been flushed down the dunny before this latest BS - from someone who pretends to be a Team_GBR supporter but kept dissing them right throughout the AC35 events, and kept a running commentary of how well Artemis with the British sailors were going to thrash everyone....

Just fuck off and jump off a cliff into a pile of crap where you'll be right at home!!

No process of elimination, although what got me interested enough to ask questions was trying to work out what on earth the NZers could ask GTF for that they would not have and was worth 300 of any currency.

Sorry about the euro/$ mix up, although that is pretty petty. I was typing off a friends computer that had a euro sign on it, but for some reason it printed $ which i didn't notice. That doesn't change the order of magnitude.

So you are saying what i have been told is wrong and my rational to see if what i have been told is could be correct. I can't help note that the 2 of you who are so full of vitriol can't come up with any decent theory as to what they might have asked GTF for that GTF either was the only team in Bermuda to have or the other teams couldn't give ETNZ and which could lead to GTF asking for euros 300K. Some materials or tools doesn't stack up. The detail of th story is what counts and which enables us to judge the actions of GTF and  there is more to this story than meets the eye, even if you choose to disbelieve what I found out.

The vitriol is truly unbelievable, but then again, maybe it isn't seeing the behaviour of a small group of NZers, starting with the totally dickhead comments from De Nota. The story was unnecessary and uncalled for, and to put it out without any real context. As usual, the small group of fanboys are more interested in defending a NZers "honour" than any consideration of what went on.

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52 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

The vitriol is truly unbelievable, but then again, maybe it isn't seeing the behaviour of a small group of NZers, starting with the totally dickhead comments from De Nota. The story was unnecessary and uncalled for, and to put it out without any real context. As usual, the small group of fanboys are more interested in defending a NZers "honour" than any consideration of what went on.

The problem I have is I just don't see De Nota dissing another team without having good reason. So either it is a misinterpretation of what was said, he didn't have all the facts of what happened or something devious did take place. Hopefully we will find out the real story at some time, however it is unlikely to be in the near future. 

In the meantime, to totally crucify the frogs for some perceived fault on their part is just crap. We won the cup through design and hard work. Any obstacles were overcome so enjoy the moment, there is no need for pitchforks and burning, we have the cup.

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10 minutes ago, Gissie said:

The problem I have is I just don't see De Nota dissing another team without having good reason. So either it is a misinterpretation of what was said, he didn't have all the facts of what happened or something devious did take place. Hopefully we will find out the real story at some time, however it is unlikely to be in the near future. 

In the meantime, to totally crucify the frogs for some perceived fault on their part is just crap. We won the cup through design and hard work. Any obstacles were overcome so enjoy the moment, there is no need for pitchforks and burning, we have the cup.

Gissie

Thanks for your comments. You show this forum that there are NZers who are truly decent people (the vast majority) and understand how to act in a sporting manner. NZ should be able to enjoy their well deserved success without resorting to some of the comments we have seen. On reflection, I really do hope that it was simply a journalist making something from nothing and that i am wrong about de Nota being out of order.

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Holy fuck GBR dont be such a condescending twat, its only an internet forum. There is no nuance or real conversations with real people its mostly a pissing match.

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19 minutes ago, Gutterblack said:

Holy fuck GBR dont be such a condescending twat, its only an internet forum. There is no nuance or real conversations with real people its mostly a pissing match.

Sorry, I really didn't mean to be condescending. I am simply over the nasty attack philosophy of some NZers and I genuinely thought it was a really positive thing that Gissie posted.:)

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2 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

No process of elimination, although what got me interested enough to ask questions was trying to work out what on earth the NZers could ask GTF for that they would not have and was worth 300 of any currency.

Sorry about the euro/$ mix up, although that is pretty petty. I was typing off a friends computer that had a euro sign on it, but for some reason it printed $ which i didn't notice. That doesn't change the order of magnitude.

So you are saying what i have been told is wrong and my rational to see if what i have been told is could be correct. I can't help note that the 2 of you who are so full of vitriol can't come up with any decent theory as to what they might have asked GTF for that GTF either was the only team in Bermuda to have or the other teams couldn't give ETNZ and which could lead to GTF asking for euros 300K. Some materials or tools doesn't stack up. The detail of th story is what counts and which enables us to judge the actions of GTF and  there is more to this story than meets the eye, even if you choose to disbelieve what I found out.

The vitriol is truly unbelievable, but then again, maybe it isn't seeing the behaviour of a small group of NZers, starting with the totally dickhead comments from De Nota. The story was unnecessary and uncalled for, and to put it out without any real context. As usual, the small group of fanboys are more interested in defending a NZers "honour" than any consideration of what went on.

Except you know fuck-all about what went on.

1: You spouted off that you asked your "contacts" in Bermuda who "informed" you that ETNZ had asked for "one-design parts" which GTF "subsequently realised" could not be used by ETNZ, so withdrew their demand for EURO300k;

2: I've listed the 3 main OD parts on the AC50s AND the reasons why they would not have been of use to ETNZ, which effectively made a big fat lie of your claim. Now that your claim had been shown to be a complete fabrication by you (and your fake "contacts" in Bermuda), you have nothing to counter with.

3: For all we know, ETNZ may have asked to borrow a couple of rams or heaters to help cook the CF repairs and the Frenchies saw an opportunity to earn some extra cash. It's also highly probable that OR-Xerox intervened and told them not so. Nothing wrong with that either, it's certainly consistent with the OR-Xerox attempts to disadvantage the ETNZ campaign wherever and however they could.

You're shooting blanks. With your luck, you'd aim one at your foot and find a live round chambered!!

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8 hours ago, ague said:

Well, given the little we know from what happened, it is difficult to have an opinion and all the dicussion above illustrate that.

For me the point is not what (technically speaking) led to this situation. What I really find unelegant (if not dangerous) is the way De Nora is leveraging this story in the "look how NZers won this race against the Amlericans the French all odds". Having a country be proud of such an achievement is great.

I agree. De Nora seems to be in dishing-it-out mode, something which backfires at some point. He's a top-level team member who wasn't involved in the tech or sailing side so he probably lives in the luxury (not to mention comes from old money) of feeling like he's the cup-holder so he's going to write history the way he saw it.

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2 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Gissie

Thanks for your comments. You show this forum that there are NZers who are truly decent people (the vast majority) and understand how to act in a sporting manner. NZ should be able to enjoy their well deserved success without resorting to some of the comments we have seen. On reflection, I really do hope that it was simply a journalist making something from nothing and that i am wrong about de Nota being out of order.

You really are a prat aren't you? Sod off with your social commentary. De Nora is being outspoken now because he thinks he can say what he wants with impunity. Make no mistake people in ETNZ will be asking him to tone it down because, even if it happened, without much more detail it's a pointless story. And with people like you chiming in cluelessly pondering things which make no sense, let alone some of which are against the rules (a point you seem intent on ignoring), you do nothing except invite mocking.

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

Except you know fuck-all about what went on.

1: You spouted off that you asked your "contacts" in Bermuda who "informed" you that ETNZ had asked for "one-design parts" which GTF "subsequently realised" could not be used by ETNZ, so withdrew their demand for EURO300k;

2: I've listed the 3 main OD parts on the AC50s AND the reasons why they would not have been of use to ETNZ, which effectively made a big fat lie of your claim. Now that your claim had been shown to be a complete fabrication by you (and your fake "contacts" in Bermuda), you have nothing to counter with.

3: For all we know, ETNZ may have asked to borrow a couple of rams or heaters to help cook the CF repairs and the Frenchies saw an opportunity to earn some extra cash. It's also highly probable that OR-Xerox intervened and told them not so. Nothing wrong with that either, it's certainly consistent with the OR-Xerox attempts to disadvantage the ETNZ campaign wherever and however they could.

You're shooting blanks. With your luck, you'd aim one at your foot and find a live round chambered!!

You stick to your view that GTF asked for Euro 300k for a couple of rams and a space heater. It makes so much sense. I am not sure what the whole story is, but there has to be more to this has been said.

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3 minutes ago, bob202 said:

You really are a prat aren't you? Sod off with your social commentary. De Nora is being outspoken now because he thinks he can say what he wants with impunity. Make no mistake people in ETNZ will be asking him to tone it down because, even if it happened, without much more detail it's a pointless story. And with people like you chiming in cluelessly pondering things which make no sense, let alone some of which are against the rules (a point you seem intent on ignoring), you do nothing except invite mocking.

Classy! I post a genuine apology because what I initially wrote didn't come over correctly and you still stick the knife in. No wonder people on here stick to their views and never admit when they have got it wrong.

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1 minute ago, Team_GBR said:

Classy! I post a genuine apology because what I initially wrote didn't come over correctly and you still stick the knife in. No wonder people on here stick to their views and never admit when they have got it wrong.

You apology oozed a higher-that-thou tone. Putting "the vast majority" in brackets was a token effort.

Either that or your writing needs work. :P

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1 minute ago, bob202 said:

You apology oozed a higher-that-thou tone. Putting "the vast majority" in brackets was a token effort.

Either that or your writing needs work. :P

Or perhaps you need to realise that not everyone is out to fuck you over just because they may disagree.

Perhaps dial back on the victim generator...:lol:

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2 minutes ago, bob202 said:

You apology oozed a higher-that-thou tone. Putting "the vast majority" in brackets was a token effort.

Either that or your writing needs work. :P

Here lies the problem with the internet. You cannot tell a person's tone of voice. Apologies are very rare on this forum. I would have hoped that somebody who actually bothered to address an issue through an apology would be given some benefit of the doubt. So in this case, I would have been better off not to apologise because my language upset you? 

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3 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Here lies the problem with the internet. You cannot tell a person's tone of voice. Apologies are very rare on this forum. I would have hoped that somebody who actually bothered to address an issue through an apology would be given some benefit of the doubt. So in this case, I would have been better off not to apologise because my language upset you? 

You did use some quite long words, so maybe he was struggling to keep up, so just had to make it up.

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2 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Here lies the problem with the internet. You cannot tell a person's tone of voice. Apologies are very rare on this forum. I would have hoped that somebody who actually bothered to address an issue through an apology would be given some benefit of the doubt. So in this case, I would have been better off not to apologise because my language upset you? 

Tone was assumed based on your recent posting track-record. Your post didn't come in isolation of previous posts which show obvious unreasonable bias and failure to accept basic details presumably because they undermine your theory/story.

Apology accepted. :P Not that you needed to apologise to me at all.

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29 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

You stick to your view that GTF asked for Euro 300k for a couple of rams and a space heater. It makes so much sense. I am not sure what the whole story is, but there has to be more to this has been said.

Actually, my "view" in response to the whinging pom has more probability of being closer to the truth than his "one-design" parts claims. Reality at the time was ETNZ were in trouble with a damaged AC50, asked for help from the French who put a value of E300k on their help, then promptly withdrew the offer. ETNZ could not have asked OR-Xerox, OR-JPN, or Artemis. They might have asked Sir Ben who helped, but then Sir Ben might have felt bad about the earlier "friendly kiss" bump he caused.

Bottom line is the Frenchies had something an injured ETNZ needed and they placed a premium value on it - whether it was a ram or two or heaters or whatever - they were in a position to demand what they wanted, nothing wrong with it.

I don't give a fuck what they asked for - the Frenchies were within their rights to demand what they wanted. Just as they were entitled to withdraw their offer for whatever reasons. It's just not the done thing when trying to win friends and influence people...

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

Actually, my "view" in response to the whinging pom has more probability of being closer to the truth than his "one-design" parts claims. Reality at the time was ETNZ were in trouble with a damaged AC50, asked for help from the French who put a value of E300k on their help, then promptly withdrew the offer. ETNZ could not have asked OR-Xerox, OR-JPN, or Artemis. They might have asked Sir Ben who helped, but then Sir Ben might have felt bad about the earlier "friendly kiss" bump he caused.

Bottom line is the Frenchies had something an injured ETNZ needed and they placed a premium value on it - whether it was a ram or two or heaters or whatever - they were in a position to demand what they wanted, nothing wrong with it.

That does not stack up at all. I get that they wouldn't ask Oracle for help and they might not have wanted to go to SBTJ, but they clearly asked BAR who gave them what they wanted and I cannot see any reason why they wouldn't ask Artemis. Then there is the issue of what on earth could GTF have that BAR and ETNZ did not or are you suggesting that they were happy to ask for a hydraulic part but wouldn't ask for any other material or heaters. You also fail to explain why GTF would come up with a price of Euro 300k for something that you suggest is probably only worth a few thousand. Even if they were adding a big premium to try to take advantage, nobody is going to come up with a figure of 100 times the true worth. Try 3 or 4 times, maybe. You claim they placed a big premium on whatever was asked for, yet you don't even know what it was.

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3 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

That does not stack up at all. I get that they wouldn't ask Oracle for help and they might not have wanted to go to SBTJ, but they clearly asked BAR who gave them what they wanted and I cannot see any reason why they wouldn't ask Artemis. Then there is the issue of what on earth could GTF have that BAR and ETNZ did not or are you suggesting that they were happy to ask for a hydraulic part but wouldn't ask for any other material or heaters. You also fail to explain why GTF would come up with a price of Euro 300k for something that you suggest is probably only worth a few thousand. Even if they were adding a big premium to try to take advantage, nobody is going to come up with a figure of 100 times the true worth. Try 3 or 4 times, maybe. You claim they placed a big premium on whatever was asked for, yet you don't even know what it was.

Who said anything about Euro300k being the "value" of what ETNZ supposedly asked for from the Frenchies?? Simple economics, supply and demand - the Frenchies had something/s ETNZ needed and they put a value on the scarcity of it! Nothing to do with what the "parts" cost - they could have asked for Euro1-million...

Try 3 or 4 times, maybe...

Now you're showing your idiocy, and why you probably work for someone else - if at all! You sound more and more like Simple Simon...

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I've got my theory. NZ went to France for help, and they were cool with it for an obvious reason. It would give a low budget team a look at the internal workings of the wing of a very good, big budget team.  Win/win for everyone. That's some serious intel for the next campaign. Then NZ said they'd be restricted to grunt work without access to the good stuff, so the froggies said fuck off, and hit them with the huge fee just to be dicks. Just as logical as any other theory. 

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Indio

How about you stop playing the man and address the main points. I don't know what went on, but what you are suggesting doesn't make sense, although I am not sure that TGBR's idea adds up either. You suggest this is over raw materials and tools? They could have got them from anywhere. What do you think the french had that no other team could provide and that ETNZ did not have. I suspect you were right in saying that ETNZ would never approach either Oracle or SBTJ, but Artemis were know for being fair and lwaving politics out of it, so i cannot see why they would not have been asked. Nobody has come up with anything that makes sense and I suspect there is a lot more to this and to condemn the french without knowing the detail feels wrong. I also don't understand why it was made such an issue. ETNZ got the boat back together in time without whatever they asked the french for, so it can't have been that vital. Such a lot of fuss for some thing not important and it seems rather classless for the winner to attack a team that was such an underdog after the whole thing is over when the incident had no impact on the outcome of anything. Until I have reason to thing differently, I am going to accept that I don't know enough to make a judgement on this, because there are key parts of this story that we do not know and I suspect never will.

I hope the french return. They seem to be a good long term addition to the AC. 

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

Indio

How about you stop playing the man and address the main points. I don't know what went on, but what you are suggesting doesn't make sense, although I am not sure that TGBR's idea adds up either. You suggest this is over raw materials and tools? They could have got them from anywhere. What do you think the french had that no other team could provide and that ETNZ did not have...

You mean such as any number of carbon materials which, as the only knocked-out team, were most likely of least use to GTF?

Of course ETNZ could have got them from anywhere, assuming time wasn't the most precious commodity - which it was.

And what about non-consumables which were now borderline useless to the GFT - like driers, moulding tools, power tools etc? Stuff which GTF could have been really keen to offload since many of them would be redundant the moment they were knocked out of the cup (why keep two of something when one will do when there's no actual race/time pressure anymore? Why not flick the other one off to someone who needs is urgently?).

Without a lot more details this whole debate is basically one of who has any idea at all about how things world, what is needed for boats. The whole $300k (or euro) is just irrelevant without those details. But the tone from De Nora was clear - let's assume he's being honest - the French wanted money for something and the implication from his tone was that their price was unreasonable in some way (ether in price, or that they wouldn't accept a replacement at a later date: again, which would possibly be of no use to them now) or that they acted erratically so as to make the team think OR was interfering to prevent ETNZ being able to get back up to speed quickly.

If anything I would like to know De Nora's story on that. France was under lots of duress, much of it financial, so it's OR who might have something to answer for if De Nora told it right. Meddling in that fashion would be utterly despicable form by OR. If true, the story should be told now that there's no gagging clause holding ETNZ back.

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2 minutes ago, bob202 said:

You mean such as any number of carbon materials which, as the only knocked-out team, were most likely of least use to GTF?

Of course ETNZ could have got them from anywhere, assuming time wasn't the most precious commodity - which it was.

And what about non-consumables which were now borderline useless to the GFT - like driers, moulding tools, power tools etc? Stuff which GTF could have been really keen to offload since many of them would be redundant the moment they were knocked out of the cup (why keep two of something when one will do when there's no actual race/time pressure anymore? Why not flick the other one off to someone who needs is urgently?).

Without a lot more details this whole debate is basically one of who has any idea at all about how things world, what is needed for boats. The whole $300k (or euro) is just irrelevant without those details. But the tone from De Nora was clear - let's assume he's being honest - the French wanted money for something and the implication from his tone was that their price was unreasonable in some way (ether in price, or that they wouldn't accept a replacement at a later date: again, which would possibly be of no use to them now) or that they acted erratically so as to make the team thing OR was interfering to prevent ETNZ being able to get back up to speed quickly.

If anything I would like to know De Nora's story on that. France was under lots of duress, probably financial even, so it's OR who might have something to answer for if De Nora told it right. Meddling in that fashion would be utterly despicable and, if true, the story should be told now that there's no gagging clause holding ETNZ back.

Your argument around carbon materials and other teams not wanting to give up materials they might need was something i thought about but dismissed because ETNZ managed without. The tools argument makes no sense to me because borrowing tools overnight wouldn't have been an issue for any other team. The most confusing thing about this is that ETNZ ended up doing without whatever they asked the french for and they still finished on time. It makes all the fuss seem out of proportion.

I disagree that the amount is irrelevant. If it were, it would not have been mentioned and as it was, to draw a conclusion, we need to know what was being asked for. Asking Euro 300k for something worth 10k is a dog act. Asking 300k for something worth 1m is being generous. Would asking a fair price be unreasonable? Again, there are important details missing which makes the story hard to judge and without that detail I also cannot understand why De Nota felt the need to put the story out there. If it had cost them the AC or even if it had prevented them from finishing the boat in time for the next day, it would make sense.

Maybe I am being too much of a cynic. It seems to me that most senior team personnel in all the teams have agendas and I don't trust many of them to give a straight story. Detail is the only thing that will get to the bottom of this story and the lack of it makes any conclusion suspect. I won't take a story so short on detail at face value and we are all involved in pointless and probably totally wrong speculation, but that's Anarchy for you :D 

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39 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Your argument around carbon materials and other teams not wanting to give up materials they might need was something i thought about but dismissed because ETNZ managed without. The tools argument makes no sense to me because borrowing tools overnight wouldn't have been an issue for any other team. The most confusing thing about this is that ETNZ ended up doing without whatever they asked the french for and they still finished on time. It makes all the fuss seem out of proportion.

We don't know that raw materials wasn't also found elsewhere. De Nora's comment didn't have enough detail. As I said, it makes sense ETNZ would first go to the team already knocked out for almost anything they needed in a hurry which only an AC team would have.

Also, it took them over a week to get the wing fixed they've said. The one they got sorted in time to race again was a patch job. So, perhaps they worked out that they could make do once they got working and cannibalising parts from both wings to get one working to race again. And then turned their focus to the other one.

Lastly, the fuss is just that, fuss. In the immediate aftermath they may not have known exactly what they needed. As they got repairing some parts may not have been as badly damaged as they first expected, and vice versa for others. I doubt it was a case of them being able to see it all right there and then when the boat came in. An initial assessment may have been approached as a: let's patch it so we can sail. If that works out we'll still be working on a proper fix also which would take a lot longer.

And remember the shore crew were already rushing to repair the wing damaged earlier in the day before the boat even pitch-poled.

I disagree that the amount is irrelevant. If it were, it would not have been mentioned and as it was, to draw a conclusion, we need to know what was being asked for. Asking Euro 300k for something worth 10k is a dog act. Asking 300k for something worth 1m is being generous...

Maybe I am being too much of a cynic. It seems to me that most senior team personnel in all the teams have agendas and I don't trust many of them to give a straight story. Detail is the only thing that will get to the bottom of this story..

It's irrelevant in the sense that people are arguing about the cost of a hydraulic ram or some carbon. Unless we know what the team asked for help with, what the French had and what the price was there is no basis on which to criticise the French team's pricing without knowing a lot more.

The withdrawn offer however is perhaps less ambiguous to ETNZ - something they (I assume De Nora and the team are of one mind here which they easily could not be) see as some sort of meddling by OR to hinder their recovery efforts. If that is the case then it will be a shitstorm of a story when it gets told (which it will if it's as De Nora says) because of how unsporting it paints OR.

As for senior members of teams not being able to give a straight story. Of that there is no doubt. They always paint it the way they want it to be told... and OR has had the free rein over this because of the gagging clause. Now that ETNZ can say whatever it wants I suspect there is going to be some measured payback - and rightly so imo.

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^Some interesting points.

I had no idea that they struggled with the wing repair and were working to get it sorted for over a week. At the risk of being abused by Indio, doesn't that support the possibility that ETNZ asked for some one design wing parts?

I also am not sure about Oracle running interference on this. Would Oracle really have the leverage over the french to get them to recind the offer. Surely Oracle had more influence with BAR yet they still handed over parts. It sounds a bit like paranoia to me, but I suspect we will never know.

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

^Some interesting points.

I had no idea that they struggled with the wing repair and were working to get it sorted for over a week. At the risk of being abused by Indio, doesn't that support the possibility that ETNZ asked for some one design wing parts?

I also am not sure about Oracle running interference on this. Would Oracle really have the leverage over the french to get them to recind the offer. Surely Oracle had more influence with BAR yet they still handed over parts. It sounds a bit like paranoia to me, but I suspect we will never know.

They are unlikely to have asked for wing parts.

The wings were NOT one design. Only the exterior shape was one design so parts would not have been interchangeable. 

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8 hours ago, Monkey said:

I've got my theory. NZ went to France for help, and they were cool with it for an obvious reason. It would give a low budget team a look at the internal workings of the wing of a very good, big budget team.  Win/win for everyone. That's some serious intel for the next campaign. Then NZ said they'd be restricted to grunt work without access to the good stuff, so the froggies said fuck off, and hit them with the huge fee just to be dicks. Just as logical as any other theory. 

I'll buy that as well B)

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8 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

I had no idea that they struggled with the wing repair and were working to get it sorted for over a week. At the risk of being abused by Indio, doesn't that support the possibility that ETNZ asked for some one design wing parts?

I forgot who said it (possibly GA in the Clean interview?), but the total turn-around time was apparently 9 days which is a lifetime in the compressed LVC and may have even had them worried about its availability for the AC proper.

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Fuck it everyone else is speculating so here goes... my guess is that ETNZ had plenty of prepeg, peelply, etc, but what they probably had a limited number of were vaccume tables, small part autoclaves, debulkers, etc... So my guess is that ETNZ asked to borrow those. Not small hand tools or consumables but bigger hard to source shop tools. At first Gtf offered to lend them, and since they were really going to be used by them who cares... then some accountant suggested selling them to ETNZ for retail price, since they were effectively the only ones in the world ETNZ could get delivered in time. At which point ETNZ said fuck off. 

 

 

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