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Waynemarlow

Under tramp main sheet for A Class

95 posts in this topic

The A Class have begun to go under tramp with their main sheet, using a cascaded system and front sheet line to get stability whilst out on the wire.

I have just gone to a boomless deck sweeping format sail, which has done away with my in boom 9:1 cascade system and front sheeting position. If I take that cascade down to deck level then it becomes a problem just as you go through the now very limited area at the back of the sail. The only options are a conventional rear set of blocks with rear sheet or hopefully one of you guys may have a schematic or piccie of how the A's are now doing things, to give me a few clues as I do think the benefits of front sheeting positions are worth the effort of the slightly more complex cascaded system.

 

Thanks.

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The boom less setups i have seen just use blocks at the back, but frankly everyone who has tried it around here has gone back to a boom. Sail shape suffers a lot and it's hard to keep the sail flat enough without one. 

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The sail is set up for a very light weight boom if I need it. So far the sail looks good without it but I am always open to fit a boom if needed.

But the clearance room isn't great under the sail cut out and a light weight boom isn't going to be strong enough which means the line going forward has to go below deck level, How do the A's do it ?

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5 hours ago, StumbleNola said:

The boom less setups i have seen just use blocks at the back, but frankly everyone who has tried it around here has gone back to a boom. Sail shape suffers a lot and it's hard to keep the sail flat enough without one. 

What a load of rubbish. Here in Australia it is going the other way. The leading boats are boomless and more and more are going away from having booms. Even some of the diehards who said they would never sail without a boom are changing.

There is a strong argument to say that sail shape is a lot better without a boom and that control of the lower part of the sail improves. The other big benefit is that there have been a fair number f mast breakages directly attributed to wishbone booms pressuring the mast in ways that they weren't designed for. Some have gone away from booms because o an unexpected problem found with wishbone booms, that the rotation doesn't work as well, particularly on port tack.

Why do you think world class sailors such as Darren Bundock and Stevie Brewin don't use a boom. They have been doing so much sailing and testing to find any advantage they can yet they keep coming back to boomless. When I changed from an Ashby sail to a Brewin last year, I talked to Stevie at great length about this and he was very happy to supply a sail with a clew hole for a boom and he said he had loads of booms that were doing nothing in his garage and could supply one at a good price. Although there are some who use a Brewin sail with a boom, I went with Stevie's advice and don't regret it. It seemed to me that if the 2 best A Class sailors in Australia believed that without a boom is faster, who am I to disagree.

I don't know if there is an issue of knowing how to use a boomless sail or even how to make one sail that makes people go back to a boom. What I do know is that I was told I needed to change the way I use the sail  and that has made a difference. I like it without a boom and the only issue I have is where to put my starting watch.

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11 hours ago, StumbleNola said:

The boom less setups i have seen just use blocks at the back, but frankly everyone who has tried it around here has gone back to a boom. Sail shape suffers a lot and it's hard to keep the sail flat enough without one. 

Just go to a couple of extra stiff battens in the lower part of the sail that will help control the depth in the lower part of the sail, but I don't think much of an issue anyway.

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The main reason most non boom setups don't work on existing boats is that the boomed setup relies on a forward pressure from the boom to rotate the mast, by having a non vertical main sheet setup ( ie the top attachment is more toward the rear of the boat than the lower attachment point ), the boom stops too much pressure on the foot of the sail putting too much belly into the lower part of the sail. 

Yes you can fit stiffer batons but better yet is to set up the mainsheet with a slight pull toward the rear countering the sail forces in the centre of the sail. The downside is that you will have to fit a positive rotator to the mast as you can see labelled in the piccie of the A in the link above, if you are running typical A mast sections.

The other even better solution and I think with the apparent wind speeds we are now seeing, is to go to a more teardrop shape mast that doesn't rely on much rotation to get the optimum entry shape on the sail. A fatter teardrop shape has a better rounded entry that relies on less rotation and allows a much flatter sail shape as the depth of the sail is largely already in place created by the rounder nose of the mast. It would be interesting for the likes someone knowledgeable in these matters to comment as I'm only going on a hunch here.

I had an older teardrop carbon mast from my F16 days and a very flat Landenberger A class sail from 08 which I have cut down to fit the shorter mast with a deck sweeping section and boom less. I have to say that I'm impressed with the ease that you can get the sail to set up properly, far easier than with the A  section mast I had previously. What I am most impressed with though is that you really do not seem to need to use any rotation, the sail and mast seem to always be in the right position with the mast rotation going through probably only 25 - 30 degrees side to side, the rounded section seems to be enough to push the max depth to that nice forward section we seem to be going for these days.

The other positive is that as soon as you ease the main, the depth of the sail immediately become deeper and slightly more rearward making it ideal for lower winds and wanting more power in the sail.

Now having cut off about 2 sqm of sail you can probably guess why I started this whole teardrop mast/ flatter sail thing. I think all less ability sailors ie 95% of us, benefit from a jib. particularly blade jibs. I have debated this often and totally acknowledge that in the best hands a Uni sail is faster on the water and in the computer world, it should be faster. In most sailors hands in actual sailing on the water conditions though, I think the computer doesn't compute and we don't have the precise setting ability of the really good sailors.

The blade jib equalises up that by just getting the bottom of the main to work better, in less wind and seems to give better indicators to the less experienced sailor. Getting a really good sail setup always seems easier if a jib is involved and over a much wider wind band.

Now for you A foiling sailors, Isn't that exactly what most foiling boats presently lack, a wider wind band, with less adjustment, with shorter mast length and your rules allows a jib. ( please don't quote Randy Smythes attempt at this as he went for a much larger jib than a blade jib ).

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1 hour ago, Waynemarlow said:

The main reason most non boom setups don't work on existing boats is that the boomed setup relies on a forward pressure from the boom to rotate the mast, by having a non vertical main sheet setup ( ie the top attachment is more toward the rear of the boat than the lower attachment point ), the boom stops too much pressure on the foot of the sail putting too much belly into the lower part of the sail. 

Yes you can fit stiffer batons but better yet is to set up the mainsheet with a slight pull toward the rear countering the sail forces in the centre of the sail. The downside is that you will have to fit a positive rotator to the mast as you can see labelled in the piccie of the A in the link above, if you are running typical A mast sections.

The other even better solution and I think with the apparent wind speeds we are now seeing, is to go to a more teardrop shape mast that doesn't rely on much rotation to get the optimum entry shape on the sail. A fatter teardrop shape has a better rounded entry that relies on less rotation and allows a much flatter sail shape as the depth of the sail is largely already in place created by the rounder nose of the mast. It would be interesting for the likes someone knowledgeable in these matters to comment as I'm only going on a hunch here.

I had an older teardrop carbon mast from my F16 days and a very flat Landenberger A class sail from 08 which I have cut down to fit the shorter mast with a deck sweeping section and boom less. I have to say that I'm impressed with the ease that you can get the sail to set up properly, far easier than with the A  section mast I had previously. What I am most impressed with though is that you really do not seem to need to use any rotation, the sail and mast seem to always be in the right position with the mast rotation going through probably only 25 - 30 degrees side to side, the rounded section seems to be enough to push the max depth to that nice forward section we seem to be going for these days.

The other positive is that as soon as you ease the main, the depth of the sail immediately become deeper and slightly more rearward making it ideal for lower winds and wanting more power in the sail.

Now having cut off about 2 sqm of sail you can probably guess why I started this whole teardrop mast/ flatter sail thing. I think all less ability sailors ie 95% of us, benefit from a jib. particularly blade jibs. I have debated this often and totally acknowledge that in the best hands a Uni sail is faster on the water and in the computer world, it should be faster. In most sailors hands in actual sailing on the water conditions though, I think the computer doesn't compute and we don't have the precise setting ability of the really good sailors.

The blade jib equalises up that by just getting the bottom of the main to work better, in less wind and seems to give better indicators to the less experienced sailor. Getting a really good sail setup always seems easier if a jib is involved and over a much wider wind band.

Now for you A foiling sailors, Isn't that exactly what most foiling boats presently lack, a wider wind band, with less adjustment, with shorter mast length and your rules allows a jib. ( please don't quote Randy Smythes attempt at this as he went for a much larger jib than a blade jib ).

Nope. You're overeading the situation. Boomless is all about sail cut and clew position. 

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Wayne

I have to disagree with you about rotation and boomless rigs. At our last nationals, the guys struggling with rotation were those using wishbone booms. We have no issue with boomless sails and rotation. The over rotators are something we have always had and are used in light winds where there isn't enough pressure to get the mast to rotate and the sail is right out, something that only now happens in the lightest of winds. What has been found is that until you start to get overpowered, you simply let the mast find its own position with nothing stopping it. A few tried playing with the over rotators to see if they could find any benefits in light conditions, but no benefits were found beyond what we have always used them for.

As for a jib, it has been discussed and many reject it for a number of reasons. To achieve the same height with a jib, you need to have good luff tension with no sag. That means a bridle and rig tension which none of the current boats are strong enough to handle. You could put a compression strut between the forestays, but the chances are that you would still rip the tangs out and bend the bows up. To make it work, you would need to build a boat specially to take the loads and as we are struggling with weight issues already, you would end up with a heavy boat even before you add the self tacking track and everything else you need. The big benefit would come in sub foiling conditions and once foiling, the increase in apparent is so much that you would not only need to be adjusting the main but also the jib. I believe the view is that a jib will also limit how high you can point when foiling upwind. I think somebody will try it, but smarter people than me seem to think it ill only be of use in a very narrow set of conditions.

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A Class Sailor, you need to consider where the tack of the blade jib would be, its way way back from the normal fore stay positions. My betting is that with the construction techniques such as the Whisper where the top deck area is made in one piece that a  small forward pole area could be created rather like the AC boats, who incidentally all have blade jibs. Even a small pole arrangement such as the S9 is not going to stress the bow. Its interesting to hear how much more powerful the S9 is at slow speed with the jib on.

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Wayne

You are asking the wrong person regarding boatbuilding but I see a few things in your comments that need questioning. You cannot use the S9 as evidence of what would happen when adding a jib to an A. With the S9, the jib is added area while with an A, it would not increase area. As for the AC boats, ETNZ did a fair amount of testing with no jib and Glenn Ashby stated that while it was faster, it made the boat less manoeuvrable which is why they put it back on. I suspect there is also an element of it being easier to reattach flow over the wing with a small jib because it is certainly hard to see what the flow is doing compared with a soft sail. I would suggest those things aren't a challenge we have in the A's.

Maybe the biggest barrier to this development is that almost all development is led by the top sailors. You suggest that this is a development that will help the average sailor but for the top guys, there might not be an advantage. This means it is less likely that the development will be done, unless by as a one off by somebody down the fleet. Then it might be hrd to see how successful it really is. This leads to another problem. I am not sure there are many of us who want to admit that we can't use the gear the top guys are using. We live with the belief or maybe it is hope that with enough practice, we will be able to sail competently enough  For me, the issue is nothing to do with setting the rig correctly and everything to do with not knowing what to do once up on foils when the boat behaves rather differently to a conventional boat. The issues are around basic boat handling and I can't see how a jib will change that but what I do see is another layer of complexity which is the last thing I want. Will a jib help with one of the big issues, that once travelling at speed up on foils, the steering becomes so sensitive that if you get it slightly wrong, you wipe out. The other thing is playing the mainsheet, which is a major issue. You need to move a lot of sheet and sometimes it is counter intuitive as to hen you need to ease and when you need to pull in. This means you shift even more sheet as you then have to counter the mistake you first made! gain, I am not sure a jib will help with any of this and might make it worse because a certain amount of your sail area is cleated. I suspect that the S9 has an advantage in this regard because of the assistance the wand gives while the A is all about steering, sheeting and body position.

These are interesting times and who knows what direction development will go. Maybe we will end up with jibs, but i am not sure where that development will come from.

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I was told by one of the other AC teams when in BER that the boat was faster without the jib (too much drag) just harder to sail, I don't see it working on an A having been tried many times before without success.

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I have a boomless rig and as stated above, let the mast rotation find its place. Only bring it in when I want to depower.  I also have forward sheeting coming off the bottom rear block to a centre ratchet.  I didn't like the system at first, fearing I will catch it on the way through however in practice, if don't even notice it and have never caught up on it.

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Guys you are all saying the same thing, sans jib is more difficult to sail with, even the AC teams are admitting that.

So what to do, we could deduce that perhaps 95% of sailors would get around the course faster on average with a jib because its easier to manage and set sails appropriately. Would 95% of sailors admit that, or instead aspire to be up there with the big dogs even if in reality that maybe the wrong thing to do. I guess vanity will win that argument every time.

I have seen this argument before in the F16 class where the whole basis of the class originally was drop the jib and solo sailors would be equal. On the water that didn't transpire even though there were a lot of solo sailors at first that spent an awful lot of sailing time trying to evolve a better way of doing things to get more efficient. We did try to get a reduction in mainsail area and small jib, but that was then considered unfair by the dual crew sailors who up to that point were winning everything. In the end we gave up, most sold their boats and moved onto other things and we rarely see solo sailors on F16's now.

My guess is that it would be a brave soul to try a jib main combo ( we all acknowledge once on the foils a smaller sail is probably desirable ) and my guess is that as most development on the A's is for the top dogs, then the manufacturers probably won't bother to spend any time considering yet another rig development, the notion that there could be a benefit to 95% people in a class, will be kicked into touch.

Ah well, just putting it out there.

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Wayne,

   I tend to agree with your argument about running the jib, if the boat is setup for it. It is much easier to sail than without the jib, as you basically have a giant telltale going upwind. Locally, in lighter conditions, a singlehanded F16 w/ jib was often at the front of the fleet and very fast. Not so good without the jib, and I never really liked how that boat performed without the jib especially in lighter conditions.

The A-cat is a very different beast however. A LOT of time by A LOT of smart sailors has been put into the existing rigs. Some of that is changing and if you could find a way to build a very light jib setup that was also stiff without the compression issues on the hulls, then maybe it could work as we are looking to get more power down low. The uni-rig will likely still outpoint the jib rig, and in complete fairness some proper time spent on the uni rig will likely yield dividends. The top sailors will always be at the top because they spend more time on the water than everyone else!!

To help answer your original question, here is a photo of a decksweeper mainsheet setup: http://www.catsailingnews.com/2016/01/a-class-worlds-2016-june-18-24-medemblik.html

I don't think the under tramp system has gained much popularity-Stevie did it to reduce drag but wasn't confident so pulled it back off his boat at last worlds, I don't know what he is running now but ask him and he'll tell you. I do think that you want the sheet coming off the middle of the tramp as this helps anchor you to the boat downwind while trapezing/foiling.

 

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The same examples get trotted out every time jibs get recommended for As and in every case the jib has provided extra sail area not redistributed sail area.  The real deciding factor which could only be answered by the guys doing it well is what is limiting the height of boats foiling upwind?  Is is apparent wind angle or getting enough power so make it work.  

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8 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Guys you are all saying the same thing, sans jib is more difficult to sail with, even the AC teams are admitting that.

This is adding 2+2 to equal 5. The AC teams need the jib because they are using a solid wing sail and it makes it easier to use. If they had a soft sail, they would not use a jib. In most cases where people say jibs work, the jib provides extra sail area which distorts the picture. Who would have thought extra sail area would be beneficial! What i struggle to see is where A's have issues sheeting their sails that would be solved with a jib. A jib improved flow attachment to the front of the sail, and in that respect, nothing has changed with foiling. The thing that has changed is how you manage twist and a jib won't help that. 

2 hours ago, samc99us said:

I don't think the under tramp system has gained much popularity-Stevie did it to reduce drag but wasn't confident so pulled it back off his boat at last worlds, I don't know what he is running now but ask him and he'll tell you.

Stevie used an under tramp system to win the nationals and people who have tried it tell me is significantly better than the conventional system. I had a look at the system at the nationals and the thing that struck me is that the sheet eases out a lot easier than with a conventional system. I believe that just about every new Australian Exploder for this upcoming worlds will have an under tramp mainsheet. I will be fitting it to my new boat when it finally arrives.

The system is now rather different from what was being used a year ago and the other under tramp systems have been optimised in order to allow the mainsheet more room to work and not snag on anything.

19 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

The real deciding factor which could only be answered by the guys doing it well is what is limiting the height of boats foiling upwind?  Is is apparent wind angle or getting enough power so make it work.  

Nothing is limiting height upwind, other than technique. Although it has been reported a number of times, people seem to have missed that at the nationals, both Stevie Brewin and Darren Bundock were foiling upwind at the same angle or maybe even a bit higher than the people not foiling. It took me a while to understand this, but I believe that if you have the right technique, you should be able to sail higher when on foils than when you are not. It is all to do with apparent wind speed. The extra apparent wind speed of foiling allows them to "pinch" more than those of us sailing in less apparent wind speed while not foiling. Get it right and it overcomes the changes in apparent wind direction because of the extra speed. It's pretty mind blowing to watch. In one race, I was following them up the first work and they were slowly climbing above me while the others who were trying to upwind foil were falling away. I don''t think the others were gaining very much in terms of VMG from their foiling, but Stevie and Bundy were mind blowingly quick and high.

If they had jibs, i think they would be limited as to how high they could point.

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8 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Nothing is limiting height upwind.

There is always something limiting height upwind otherwise we'd sail straight into it..  As cat sailors we don't point as high a monoslugs not because of any "issue" with cats but because we are going so much faster that the apparent wind ends up on the nose stalling out our sails.

Wasn't there and haven't seen it, but i suspect what you're seeing from Stevie and Darren is that their extra speed means the "vertical" part of the foils are generating more lift so they are making less leeway.  Remember foil lift is proportiononal to the square of speed so if they're going 10% faster than you they're getting 21% more lift.

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12 hours ago, samc99us said:

Wayne,

   I tend to agree with your argument about running the jib, if the boat is setup for it. It is much easier to sail than without the jib, as you basically have a giant telltale going upwind. Locally, in lighter conditions, a singlehanded F16 w/ jib was often at the front of the fleet and very fast. Not so good without the jib, and I never really liked how that boat performed without the jib especially in lighter conditions.

 

Sam, the F16 you quoted is a perhaps a poor example, typically the main sail would have been set up for a jib ie the lower half of the sail would have been flatter than the top, exactly the opposite of a Uni rig. Take the jib effect away from that lower half and it then becomes too flat to give any drive in lighter winds. The other thing is most F16's were set up with quite stiff masts for two on the wire and we found that we couldn't soften the masts enough to get any decent bend in them for up wind and light air sailing.

I went to the extreme and fitted a full A Class rig to my F16 as I mainly raced handicap racing under SCHRS and it was a far superior boat in so many ways despite having a smaller sail area. Really nice to sail with and I reckon probably not much slower than the main and jib combo. Again we tried to get A Class rigs to be allowed for the solo sailors as there were quite a few stiff masts being sold at the time ( they take the spinny no problem ), but again the dual sailors complained that the development gone into the A Class rig would put them at a disadvantage. When they upped the min weight limit to suit the over weight Viper ( OK they had sold the most number of boats ) I moved onto other classes but I still miss the F16 boats as probably the best fun all round boats out there.

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16 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

This is adding 2+2 to equal 5. The AC teams need the jib because they are using a solid wing sail and it makes it easier to use. If they had a soft sail, they would not use a jib. In most cases where people say jibs work, the jib provides extra sail area which distorts the picture. Who would have thought extra sail area would be beneficial! What i struggle to see is where A's have issues sheeting their sails that would be solved with a jib. A jib improved flow attachment to the front of the sail, and in that respect, nothing has changed with foiling. The thing that has changed is how you manage twist and a jib won't help that. 

Stevie used an under tramp system to win the nationals and people who have tried it tell me is significantly better than the conventional system. I had a look at the system at the nationals and the thing that struck me is that the sheet eases out a lot easier than with a conventional system. I believe that just about every new Australian Exploder for this upcoming worlds will have an under tramp mainsheet. I will be fitting it to my new boat when it finally arrives.

The system is now rather different from what was being used a year ago and the other under tramp systems have been optimised in order to allow the mainsheet more room to work and not snag on anything.

Nothing is limiting height upwind, other than technique. Although it has been reported a number of times, people seem to have missed that at the nationals, both Stevie Brewin and Darren Bundock were foiling upwind at the same angle or maybe even a bit higher than the people not foiling. It took me a while to understand this, but I believe that if you have the right technique, you should be able to sail higher when on foils than when you are not. It is all to do with apparent wind speed. The extra apparent wind speed of foiling allows them to "pinch" more than those of us sailing in less apparent wind speed while not foiling. Get it right and it overcomes the changes in apparent wind direction because of the extra speed. It's pretty mind blowing to watch. In one race, I was following them up the first work and they were slowly climbing above me while the others who were trying to upwind foil were falling away. I don''t think the others were gaining very much in terms of VMG from their foiling, but Stevie and Bundy were mind blowingly quick and high.

If they had jibs, i think they would be limited as to how high they could point.

ACS,

  Do you have a diagram for the under tramp mainsheet system?

 

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6 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Sam, the F16 you quoted is a perhaps a poor example, typically the main sail would have been set up for a jib ie the lower half of the sail would have been flatter than the top, exactly the opposite of a Uni rig. Take the jib effect away from that lower half and it then becomes too flat to give any drive in lighter winds. The other thing is most F16's were set up with quite stiff masts for two on the wire and we found that we couldn't soften the masts enough to get any decent bend in them for up wind and light air sailing.

I went to the extreme and fitted a full A Class rig to my F16 as I mainly raced handicap racing under SCHRS and it was a far superior boat in so many ways despite having a smaller sail area. Really nice to sail with and I reckon probably not much slower than the main and jib combo. Again we tried to get A Class rigs to be allowed for the solo sailors as there were quite a few stiff masts being sold at the time ( they take the spinny no problem ), but again the dual sailors complained that the development gone into the A Class rig would put them at a disadvantage. When they upped the min weight limit to suit the over weight Viper ( OK they had sold the most number of boats ) I moved onto other classes but I still miss the F16 boats as probably the best fun all round boats out there.

Wayne,

  I should have clarified that the boats in question have had uni-rig sails cut. The mast issue makes a lot of sense, and probably explains why the Taipan 4.9 converted to F16 locally does well, as I believe that mast is less stiff than say a Viper mast?

It does suck that the class could never resolve the 1 up vs. 2 up thing sufficiently. I'm a bit confused though on why the A cat rig wouldn't be allowed, other than the mast tip weight rule? Carbon rigs are class legal as would be a rig with less than maximum sail area.

Anyway, what A-cat are you sailing these days?

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The A Class rig is too tall, I think from memory max 8.5m on the F16 where as the A's are about 9.2 + there's a tip weight thingee as well. 

My A class is sitting very forlornly in the boat park, an Aus Flyer with high aspect boards. I eventually broke the mast on it not with the spiny but a bizarre incident in which I knocked a diamond off the spreader, went out on the wire and looked up to see the diamond wire flapping in the breeze, thought I had better get back in when a plane landing at Heathrow went about 300 ft over head and set off a mini typhoon ( it's normal on low wind days at Datchet ) and put enough stress on the mast to break it. One of those series of small incidences which all stack up to create a rather big and costly incidence. How often would you break a mast in less than 6 knots of wind.

Plan is to wait until the foil aspect is sorted in the A Class as I really don't think that is yet the case and the cost factor of constantly having to update is over and then retro fit foils. I'm presently  sailing a 20 ft Hurricane 5.9 and just about to launch a 16 ft beastie.

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On 15 July 2017 at 0:10 AM, Waynemarlow said:

The A Class rig is too tall, I think from memory max 8.5m on the F16 where as the A's are about 9.2 + there's a tip weight thingee as well. 

My A class is sitting very forlornly in the boat park, an Aus Flyer with high aspect boards. I eventually broke the mast on it not with the spiny but a bizarre incident in which I knocked a diamond off the spreader, went out on the wire and looked up to see the diamond wire flapping in the breeze, thought I had better get back in when a plane landing at Heathrow went about 300 ft over head and set off a mini typhoon ( it's normal on low wind days at Datchet ) and put enough stress on the mast to break it. One of those series of small incidences which all stack up to create a rather big and costly incidence. How often would you break a mast in less than 6 knots of wind.

Plan is to wait until the foil aspect is sorted in the A Class as I really don't think that is yet the case and the cost factor of constantly having to update is over and then retro fit foils. I'm presently  sailing a 20 ft Hurricane 5.9 and just about to launch a 16 ft beastie.

Shame about breaking the mast Wayne. That should be a fairly easy repair unless the mast got really splintered. Scotty usually sells sections of sleeve for repairs too. They are usually 9.04 from the major manufacturers but still too big for the F16 rule  

I don't think the foil sections will ever be sorted. The development will just keep going. I'd like a dollar for each time I've heard people say they are waiting for development to stop during my 37 years sailing A's. The DNA Z's and Exploder Z's from 5 onwards are pretty good. Sopot next month might bring a little refinement. You'll be able to jump in then and come to Hervey Bay in 2018. You know you want to. Come a month early and do some whale watching or a bareboat charter in the Whitsundays. 

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+1 WetNWild. The Exploder Z10's have been the default production boards for over a year now. My suggestion is to buy a set plus rudders from someone upgrading at/after Sopot. My understanding is the newest boards (Z15/18 etc.) should fit into the production trunks, maybe with some lower bearing work. I will state that this is not an easy nor fast project, it is a solid 60+ hours for a skilled composites expert. I think Stevie can do an exploder in about half that time but he's done a bunch and the factory parts fit the exploder hull. They don't fit the Flyer hull very well.

Some of my additional thoughts:

1) Don't use the bottom bearing. Get the cutout right and install a sh$t ton of carbon in the bottom. 7 layers would be okay, maybe, I'd go for double that right at the exit to give the board some bearing surface.

2) Bulkhead style trunks are OKAY but require some precising measuring to fit. We went with box trunks that only required precise measuring/cutting on one side of the plates.

3) The worm drive style sliders are in and at least the setup I have used on the latest exploder works beautifully. I have the regular sliders for my Flyer though and will likely use those.

4) Bond your beams in. My builder has been hesitating on that but the other person in the U.S who has done a flyer conversion sailed with and without bonding the beams and the latter made a big difference.

If you need any additional measurements etc. please don't hesitate to ask, I am happy help. my screenname AT gmail DOT com is my email.

WnW, ACS,

  Can you confirm that the under tramp mainsheet is also being used with the short traveler option from Exploder? I ask because unlike Aussie land we sail in a lot of 0-5 kt conditions that make full use of the curved traveler.

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2 hours ago, samc99us said:

+1 WetNWild. The Exploder Z10's have been the default production boards for over a year now. My suggestion is to buy a set plus rudders from someone upgrading at/after Sopot. My understanding is the newest boards (Z15/18 etc.) should fit into the production trunks, maybe with some lower bearing work. I will state that this is not an easy nor fast project, it is a solid 60+ hours for a skilled composites expert. I think Stevie can do an exploder in about half that time but he's done a bunch and the factory parts fit the exploder hull. They don't fit the Flyer hull very well.

Some of my additional thoughts:

1) Don't use the bottom bearing. Get the cutout right and install a sh$t ton of carbon in the bottom. 7 layers would be okay, maybe, I'd go for double that right at the exit to give the board some bearing surface.

2) Bulkhead style trunks are OKAY but require some precising measuring to fit. We went with box trunks that only required precise measuring/cutting on one side of the plates.

3) The worm drive style sliders are in and at least the setup I have used on the latest exploder works beautifully. I have the regular sliders for my Flyer though and will likely use those.

4) Bond your beams in. My builder has been hesitating on that but the other person in the U.S who has done a flyer conversion sailed with and without bonding the beams and the latter made a big difference.

If you need any additional measurements etc. please don't hesitate to ask, I am happy help. my screenname AT gmail DOT com is my email.

WnW, ACS,

  Can you confirm that the under tramp mainsheet is also being used with the short traveler option from Exploder? I ask because unlike Aussie land we sail in a lot of 0-5 kt conditions that make full use of the curved traveler.

Well I can't speak for ACS because I don't know where in Aus he sails. But generally we don't get 0-5 consistently and most RO's won't start a race in that. We would usually stay in the bar! 

I guesss it depends on what type of boats you sail against. In 0-5 any foiling boat will get smoked by the older more v bottomed boats. If you have a short trav flat bottomed foiler against similar hulls a long trav will allow you to mooch

downwind faster. But if you sail mainly in that breeze a foiler is probably not the best option anyway. 

On doing conversions I would always glue in the beams if you have an old boat. Stiffness is king in either floating or foiling. 

I've done a DNA conversion and dug out the inner skin and nomez and replaced it with layers of cabin 50x200 at the case exit. You need a lot of Staines here and about 5 or 6mm bearing surface. 

In summary in open class championships where class rules dictate min 5 knots a short trav works. Under tramp mainsheet is good but forward sheet system will work for most people. Forget rear sheet systems as they lack balance and trav control. 

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2 hours ago, WetnWild said:

Well I can't speak for ACS because I don't know where in Aus he sails. But generally we don't get 0-5 consistently and most RO's won't start a race in that. We would usually stay in the bar! 

I guesss it depends on what type of boats you sail against. In 0-5 any foiling boat will get smoked by the older more v bottomed boats. If you have a short trav flat bottomed foiler against similar hulls a long trav will allow you to mooch

downwind faster. But if you sail mainly in that breeze a foiler is probably not the best option anyway. 

One of the NSW guys says they have compared light wind downwind speeds between exactly the same hulls, foils and sail, the only difference being one boat had the short traveller and no boom and the other had a full traveller with a boom. In the conditions you have the sail out as far as possible, it seems there was no noticeable difference in speed. I remember reading somewhere that in the lightest winds, the bottom of the sail doesn't do very much so maybe that is what is going on.

As reported by WnW, we don't race sub 5 knots very much if ever and I agree that if those are the conditions you usually race in, forget a foiler. If you regularly sail below about 7 knots, I don't think a foiler is for you, but I would also question why you would want an A for those conditions anyway. If you can pop a hull, you can foil but if you can't, is an A the right boat?

Regarding mainsheet systems and booms, I now remember something I was told when i bought my boomless Brewin and I might now know the problems some are experiencing. There are a number of ways of setting up a "conventional" above tramp system and if you choose the wrong one, the sail will not work properly. If you look at many of the pictures, you will see that with the deck sweeper sails, the mainsheet comes from the blocks at the back to the tramp from the top block and it runs along the diagonal of the sail  down to the tramp. The problem with this is one of geometry. As you pull the mainsheet, it makes the bottom fuller. You need to ensure that the mainsheet comes forward from the bottom block. The best above tramp system is to used the Harken F18 10:1 with the cleat raised up so it cannot accidentally cleat. Then take the mainsheet forward from the last bottom block top a block in the middle of the tramp. Some are concerned it is a trip hazard but it isn't. With that system, pulling the mainsheet flattens the sail. Get the downhaul right and a small ease simply opens the leach without adding fullness to the bottom of the sail, although I struggle to pull the downhaul on as hard as the top boys do.

Sorry, i have no photos or diagrams, but will see if I can get some.

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9 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

The best above tramp system is to used the Harken F18 10:1 with the cleat raised up so it cannot accidentally cleat. Then take the mainsheet forward from the last bottom block top a block in the middle of the tramp. 

Are you guys running 10:1?  I am running 9:1 and wouldn't mind throwing in an extra purchase.

 

IMG_9908.JPG

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TA,

  One potential issue with your setup is the block spacing is pretty open. It would be hard to go block to block with that setup but at least on the decksweeper I have been using (Glaser) its not a big issue as we have an extension on the bottom block->traveler. The downside is the extra purchase means more sheet for a given sail movement. This is one of the reasons 12:1 mainsheet systems have not been adopted en-mass by the F18 class, though that might change with the move to decksweepers there (TBD, loads aren't quite as high and you have crew muscle). Anyway, I find the extra sheet length a pain when trying to foil as it requires coordination I currently lack to properly trim the sail, and I am on 8:1. My opinion is 9:1 is sufficient for less breezy venues but certainly 10:1 would be better.

ACS,

  The harken 10:1 system you describe is how some Goodall C2's are fitted, so you are right, it isn't a real trip hazard once you get used to it. My understanding is 24:1 downhaul systems are becoming more common in order to pull enough on without ripping a bicep. Hopefully we don't end up at 48:1 but we'll see. As to the light air, yes, its frustrating and many A-Cats choose not to race on such light nights as it is painful downwind. Even the heavy F18 is better with the kite! Really ideal modern boats for this venue are the F16 w/ kite and F20c. The older Inter 20 does well and I'm sure the Inter 17 would also be right at home. Years ago someone fitted a spinnaker to a Marstrom A and I'm sure that was a fast boat locally (before my time). I'll have to look at that one again, trick is going to be dousing the kite while foiling as I'm sure once on foils it isn't needed!!

 

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The SCHRS handicap calculator now has a method to calculate out Genoa and Screecher front sails. That's a real bonus and if you think along the lines of the UK S1 with a simple top down furler using D12 Max as the furling line then you can fit a smaller than your normal spinnaker Screecher that furls easily with limited aerodynamic effect upwind on the shorter club type courses.

A question, why can't you fit straight boards on light wind occasions ?

what about a 3:1 block at the back, cascaded 3:1 under the tramp ?

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13 hours ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

Are you guys running 10:1?  I am running 9:1 and wouldn't mind throwing in an extra purchase.

 

IMG_9908.JPG

You are making life so hard for yourself with that system. There is a reason why we buy the really expensive large heavy blocks and it isn't because we like to spend money. This is what you need if you aren't going under tramp

28-101.jpg

You then adjust the cleat up so it cannot accidentally cleat the sheet, or remove it entirely and run the sheet to  block forward on the tramp. The size of the blocks makes the sheet run freely. You need decent rope as well and don't be tempted to go too big on that rope. Saving money in this area is just making life tough for yourself.

Most are running 10:1 and the set up above is the most popular, because it works. Stevie has 2:1 at the back and 5:1 under the tramp. If somebody works out how to get the power of a 12:1 but with the amount of rope for a 6:1 I would be a happy man. I want more purchase as possible, but want to shift less sheet!

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Cheers, this is the system that came with the boat and I was not happy with it.  I still have a set of F18 blocks with mainsheet so looks like I will be changing over.

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

You are making life so hard for yourself with that system. There is a reason why we buy the really expensive large heavy blocks and it isn't because we like to spend money. This is what you need if you aren't going under tramp

28-101.jpg

You then adjust the cleat up so it cannot accidentally cleat the sheet, or remove it entirely and run the sheet to  block forward on the tramp. The size of the blocks makes the sheet run freely. You need decent rope as well and don't be tempted to go too big on that rope. Saving money in this area is just making life tough for yourself.

Most are running 10:1 and the set up above is the most popular, because it works. Stevie has 2:1 at the back and 5:1 under the tramp. If somebody works out how to get the power of a 12:1 but with the amount of rope for a 6:1 I would be a happy man. I want more purchase as possible, but want to shift less sheet!

TA

The system on your boat works just fine, I know this because I built it. Your issue might be that you need to hit the gym:)

You won't be able to go to an under tramp sheeting system unless you go to the short straight track and mod your tramp heavily to allow the open slot you require.

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Cheers, my soft skipper arms will have to get use to doing some work :D. Just wasnt sure if i was sheeting in enough upwind.  Have to get use to the boomless main with the small head.

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On the cascade systems, we found as soon as you go over 9:1 on conventional block systems, the friction of the rope turning through so many blocks becomes so great that you achieve little less arm pull by going to 10:1 or even 12:1, same effort just longer rope pull.

The first in boom cascade I built was a real revelation on just how easy everything ran and in particular how it would release when the tension was on and I found that the pull on your arms of a 9:1 cascade was about the same as a 10:1 or 12:1, even perhaps less to get the sail shape you wanted. The other bonus is that if you think about things a bit, you can work out that you use small but powerful " wire blocks " with D12 at the rear 3:1 and then relatively cheaper 30mm or 40mm blocks for the secondary 3:1. If you want a cleat then a very cheap block and cleat combo at the middle block. One warning if you plan on using D12, under tension it goes completely flat in shape and using conventional blocks it will find every gap between the sheeve and surround, its a right pain. But using wire blocks you won't have any problems.

Yes the movement distances are less as in you will need to use the travellor more but then I'm a great advocate that most cat sailors don't use the travellor enough, as after all the tension on the clew of the mainsail is all that stops you breaking a mast and so often you see a cat fully powered up downwind, spinny up and main sheet quite loose. Its only going to be a matter of time in that case before the insurance co is going to get a call.

You can do a real quick test guys, fill a 50 Litre drum with water or a block of something heavy and lift it using your 10:1 blocks, lift it in 5mm increments ( checking ease of control ) then a rig a cheap 9:1 cascade and do the same, you will be pleasantly surprised how much more control you have and how easy it is in comparison to the conventional block system.

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2 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

On the cascade systems, we found as soon as you go over 9:1 on conventional block systems, the friction of the rope turning through so many blocks becomes so great that you achieve little less arm pull by going to 10:1 or even 12:1, same effort just longer rope pull.

The first in boom cascade I built was a real revelation on just how easy everything ran and in particular how it would release when the tension was on and I found that the pull on your arms of a 9:1 cascade was about the same as a 10:1 or 12:1, even perhaps less to get the sail shape you wanted. The other bonus is that if you think about things a bit, you can work out that you use small but powerful " wire blocks " with D12 at the rear 3:1 and then relatively cheaper 30mm or 40mm blocks for the secondary 3:1. If you want a cleat then a very cheap block and cleat combo at the middle block. One warning if you plan on using D12, under tension it goes completely flat in shape and using conventional blocks it will find every gap between the sheeve and surround, its a right pain. But using wire blocks you won't have any problems.

Yes the movement distances are less as in you will need to use the travellor more but then I'm a great advocate that most cat sailors don't use the travellor enough, as after all the tension on the clew of the mainsail is all that stops you breaking a mast and so often you see a cat fully powered up downwind, spinny up and main sheet quite loose. Its only going to be a matter of time in that case before the insurance co is going to get a call.

You can do a real quick test guys, fill a 50 Litre drum with water or a block of something heavy and lift it using your 10:1 blocks, lift it in 5mm increments ( checking ease of control ) then a rig a cheap 9:1 cascade and do the same, you will be pleasantly surprised how much more control you have and how easy it is in comparison to the conventional block system.

+1 Wayne. I used a 3 on 3 system inside the boom = 9:1 using the Harken high load wire blocks in the 80's. It was brilliant but I discarded it until a couple of years ago when I added it to my foiler but outside the boom. Really smooth running and easy in and out. Before I went to a decksweeper I made it 3 on 4 but that really wasn't better because it was slower to sheet because of the extra rope pull needed. The cascade down and under the tramp at 9:1 seems the best. 

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12 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

On the cascade systems, we found as soon as you go over 9:1 on conventional block systems, the friction of the rope turning through so many blocks becomes so great that you achieve little less arm pull by going to 10:1 or even 12:1, same effort just longer rope pull.

The first in boom cascade I built was a real revelation on just how easy everything ran and in particular how it would release when the tension was on and I found that the pull on your arms of a 9:1 cascade was about the same as a 10:1 or 12:1, even perhaps less to get the sail shape you wanted. The other bonus is that if you think about things a bit, you can work out that you use small but powerful " wire blocks " with D12 at the rear 3:1 and then relatively cheaper 30mm or 40mm blocks for the secondary 3:1. If you want a cleat then a very cheap block and cleat combo at the middle block. One warning if you plan on using D12, under tension it goes completely flat in shape and using conventional blocks it will find every gap between the sheeve and surround, its a right pain. But using wire blocks you won't have any problems.

Yes the movement distances are less as in you will need to use the travellor more but then I'm a great advocate that most cat sailors don't use the travellor enough, as after all the tension on the clew of the mainsail is all that stops you breaking a mast and so often you see a cat fully powered up downwind, spinny up and main sheet quite loose. Its only going to be a matter of time in that case before the insurance co is going to get a call.

You can do a real quick test guys, fill a 50 Litre drum with water or a block of something heavy and lift it using your 10:1 blocks, lift it in 5mm increments ( checking ease of control ) then a rig a cheap 9:1 cascade and do the same, you will be pleasantly surprised how much more control you have and how easy it is in comparison to the conventional block system.

I agree that the 3:1 then 3:1 cascade is better than the 10:1 I posted, but the problem is how to use that with a boomless or wishbone sail. Having the 10:1 system I posted is a lot better than the small block, 9:1 system posted by TA. I know because I went from one to the other. 10:1 cascade, being 2:1 above the tramp and 5:1 under the tramp works really well. I believe the 9:1 was tried but it wasn't as good because you really do need the extra power. 

 

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I have a great 12:1 system on my boomed main. Not sure exactly what I'll do when the new deck sweeper comes, probably go under tramp cascade.

I currently have 4:1 on the back with a 4mm dynema line, then a 3:1 on the boom with a 6mm sheet and double ratchet blocks. One ratchet at the front of the boom where the sheet does a large change in direction and one on the tramp. Only use the boom ratchet if it gets windy otherwise the sheet doesn't ease well in light breeze.

You have to make sure the system is well set up, because it doesn't allow much ease, but you don't tend to need it.

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2 hours ago, juniordave nz said:

I have a great 12:1 system on my boomed main. Not sure exactly what I'll do when the new deck sweeper comes, probably go under tramp cascade.

I currently have 4:1 on the back with a 4mm dynema line, then a 3:1 on the boom with a 6mm sheet and double ratchet blocks. One ratchet at the front of the boom where the sheet does a large change in direction and one on the tramp. Only use the boom ratchet if it gets windy otherwise the sheet doesn't ease well in light breeze.

You have to make sure the system is well set up, because it doesn't allow much ease, but you don't tend to need it.

I have highlighted what i believe is the problem with your comments. The amount of ease needed when foiling is huge. 10:1 is more rope than most can really handle, but less purchase makes it too hard to get the sail in as far as is needed. It was a big revelation just how hard the guys are pulling their mainsheets. When I was struggling even more than now, one of the guns at the club took my boat out. I couldn't really get block to block on the mainsheet system I had then, but he shortened the strop to the sail by about 100mm and told me to pull harder! That is when I went for the Harken F18 system, because I wasn't strong enough to pull the sail in enough. I know that there is no way I could handle moving any more sheet than I currently do and I would be able to sail better if I had less sheet to move. It's not so bad upwind, but downwind I believe the biggest difference between me and the fast guys is the ability to move enough sheet. I blame old age but probably I never had enough skill in the first place.

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The Tornado guys did all the boom cascade system development back in the 90's and if they worked out that a 9:1 or 10:1 in boom cascade was enough on a pretty big sail and stiff mast, just maybe the A Class setup has to be wrong somewhere, Its a tiny sail and small mast in comparison. Even my F18 has a really big flat top sail with a tough as old boots Ali mast and with the combination of 12:1 in mast cascade downhaul ( about the same as a 16:1 conventional downhaul due to the friction on the small blocks) and 10:1 at the back, you can bend the mast at will as long as you remember to take up both the downhaul and main sheet in stages, if you try and just use the main, the sail locks into the mast track and you cannot shape the sail using just one of the parameters, both need to be adjusted in stages

I would suspect a lot of the difficulty is not arm strength but a combination of all the others factors to do with hanging onto the boat at speed, that maybe is diminishing the ability to heave a line, you will be unpleasantly surprised how much the bodies strength lessons under stress and the body will distribute energy to all the requirements in even proportions, to the total needs. If the body can only produce about 200W of energy from normal respiration and lactic breakdown, then you can only ever put in 200W of energy to all things going on. If 100W is put into the legs to maintain position, then only 100W is left for everything else.

A simple test would be set up your boat on the beach and then pull on the main and downhaul in stages and see if you can go block to block or whatever distance you need to pull in to shape the sail, if you can then its the cumulative energy factor that's the limitation, not the equipment.

If you are having to use so much sheet then why wouldn't you consider using the travellor more. Most big boats rely on the travellor totally, it takes too much energy to use the main sheet and is too slow. To be honest I'm surprised that we haven't gone over to 2:1 on the travellor. I tried it on my F16 and liked it, but I had a pretty new oversize Harken travellor setup ( it was cheap on Ebay ) and found the 1:1 was manageable.

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From memory, we were running 13:1 internal on the carbon rig T's due to the stiffness of the rig.

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Actually I think you are right, I think it was 4:1 down the back and 3:1 in the boom with the extra 1 being the return, there was a long long discussion on Cat Sailor some years back and I think also here on Anarchy. I think also some tried a 2:1 fiddle block for the crew.

The problem is though is that we are now running deck sweeping sails, and we don't have a boom to play with. On the present setup I'm trying to convert to a deck sweeper the problem is the height of the return line from the base of the blocks on the travellor, in my case it must be about 125mm up from the tramp as the travellor sits up on the beam ( I can understand why the A's have theirs alongside the rear beam and to why its there now ) and that height at the back really diminishes the already tight slot to get through on a tack. The sail sets really nice where the travellor is sans boomless, if I move it forward then I will have to fit an extra thick batten down low. Mmmm dilemmas.

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One of the issues with some of the boomless sails is they require higher sheet tension than sails with booms, has to do with sheet angle. Booms impart stress on the mast in ways that the older rigs can't handle, and even some of the newer rigs can't take, so its not advisable for conversions. Going beyond 10:1 is not advisable because of the sheet changes required. If you can tell me how to steer the boat, trim the main, balance the boat on foils AND trim the traveller, I would love to know. As is just trimming the sheet properly takes a great deal of skill.

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Add in a Spinny & mast spanner as well on the F16's and you start to get the picture of a days sailing high performance boats. We can do it though and you just have to get into a routine. I sailed alongside a top sailor whilst soloing on an F16 and he worked hard all day long, always a constant blur of adjusting things until I realised he went through the same routine everytime.

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Wayne,

  Have you sailed a foiling A-Cat yet? I've sailed the F16 solo with kite and its not the same thing as the A-cat on foils downwind at 22+ kts of boat speed while trying to balance a uni-cycle. On the F16 its a cleat and set job on the mainsheet, maybe a play on the traveler occasionally and full time spin work plus driving. I'm not saying this is easy-it takes practice driving from the wire with the kite up, and there is less margin if you stuff than on the A (by a long shot), but you don't have the roll instability of the A-Cat. Really only the mainsheet and helm get played, watch the videos of the top guys. Downwind and upwind spanner and downhaul settings, as well a main board rake are virtually identical as the speed to fly pulls the apparent wind rather far forward. Trying to mess with these while wired up and foiling is not very conducive, certainly not when learning. The better guys surely do but they have more natural feel for the helm and sheet and know when and how to make and adjustment. I have played the traveller from the wire downwind but no way would I trade my sheet hand to do it.

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I also sailed a solo F16 for a while and am now starting to learn how to sail a foiling A.  Whilst there is a lot to do on the F16, everything seems a little more stable and it is easier to sail than an A.  Believe it or not, the sheet loads and the amount of sheeting on the A are higher and more of it than working the Spinnaker downwind on the F16.

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No not had the chance to sail a foiling A, by the sounds of it I can understand now why it takes so long to learn, which leads you to wonder why you should bother when the learning curve on the S9 seemed so fast. Mmmm 

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22 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

No not had the chance to sail a foiling A, by the sounds of it I can understand now why it takes so long to learn, which leads you to wonder why you should bother when the learning curve on the S9 seemed so fast. Mmmm 

I would suggest it's because they completely different boats aimed at different sailors. 

My observation is the S9 is aimed at recreational sailors who want a relatively easy foiling boat to blast around. They are configured not for outright course performance but ease of use. 

The A as we know is an existing world wide development class within the World Sailing structure and extensively raced in over 20 countries. There are long established World, Continental, National and regional class regattas. It has an extensive class administrative structure designed to closely manage the integrity and future of the class. It is a breeding ground for Olympic and AC sailors and the class of choice for designers and developers with vision and a view to the future. 

I doubt the S9 aspires to those heights as good as it may be as a boat. 

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Just a little sneaky look at what the current under deck mainsheet system looks like from the outside:)

IMG_7344.PNG

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That looks so clean. Bundy's new boat? I think I see his sponsorship stickers through the sail.

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5 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

That looks so clean. Bundy's new boat? I think I see his sponsorship stickers through the sail.

Could save some weight by using friction rings or "shocks" instead of turning blocks for the three control lines in the foreground. That's 6 unnecessary blocks in total.  

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I have caught you out again A Class Sailor. 

The boat is actually Simon Nelson's boat (formally Darren Bundocks) you would have known that had you been Simon like you said to me on the phone the other day hahahaha:)

Yes WnW I agree I would/will be using Ronstan Shocks instead of the RF25109 20mm Lashing blocks at the back corner. Either way the boat looks very nice and extremely tidy.

Well done to Simon N. See haters he does actually Sail A's and is doing quite well. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, CoolBreeze said:

I have caught you out again A Class Sailor. 

The boat is actually Simon Nelson's boat (formally Darren Bundocks) you would have known that had you been Simon like you said to me on the phone the other day hahahaha:)

Yes WnW I agree I would/will be using Ronstan Shocks instead of the RF25109 20mm Lashing blocks at the back corner. Either way the boat looks very nice and extremely tidy.

Well done to Simon N. See haters he does actually Sail A's and is doing quite well. 

 

 

Gee who would have thought you'd use Ronstan gear. I'm sure Grantly would do you a good price..........

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10 hours ago, WetnWild said:

I would suggest it's because they completely different boats aimed at different sailors. 

My observation is the S9 is aimed at recreational sailors who want a relatively easy foiling boat to blast around. They are configured not for outright course performance but ease of use. 

The A as we know is an existing world wide development class within the World Sailing structure and extensively raced in over 20 countries. There are long established World, Continental, National and regional class regattas. It has an extensive class administrative structure designed to closely manage the integrity and future of the class. It is a breeding ground for Olympic and AC sailors and the class of choice for designers and developers with vision and a view to the future. 

I doubt the S9 aspires to those heights as good as it may be as a boat. 

Sorry WW but this isnt correct , fully wrong , S9 have kill A cat in 3 different races , the last was at TFW ,  I have to add that S9 now have almost same performance of Moth .

 All  this is demonstrable, rankings and moovies are published, there is a lot of material about it

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Simple stainless steel rings are as good as any blocks in non tensioned line guides, and you can buy them in a handful for the same price as a small block if you look on Ebay and go to sites where they sell car covers and the likes. Who needs a named brand.

Really good looking boat Simon ( someone who I've always admired as a great technician and engineer ). Note the new positions of the sail clew though and the thicker than normal bottom batten, that sail was never designed for that boat or it was a non deck sweeper earlier in its life. Wouldn't it have been better to put the travellor behind the rear beam and then you would have all the right angles without all the complications in the tramp design?

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11 hours ago, WetnWild said:

I would suggest it's because they completely different boats aimed at different sailors. 

My observation is the S9 is aimed at recreational sailors who want a relatively easy foiling boat to blast around. They are configured not for outright course performance but ease of use. 

 

I've long held the adage that getting around the course more easily is the quickest way for 95% of sailors, the guns who are prepared to put in the time will always get that last 5% from some pretty difficult equipment to use but why wouldn't you allow a mix of both T's and Z foils, that's something I've always thought should have happened in the A Class at least for the first 5 years, just to let development take place, after all it is development class.

That's for another thread though and please keep this one to the hardware side if we can.

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56 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

Simple stainless steel rings are as good as any blocks in non tensioned line guides, and you can buy them in a handful for the same price as a small block if you look on Ebay and go to sites where they sell car covers and the likes. Who needs a named brand.

Really good looking boat Simon ( someone who I've always admired as a great technician and engineer ). Note the new positions of the sail clew though and the thicker than normal bottom batten, that sail was never designed for that boat or it was a non deck sweeper earlier in its life. Wouldn't it have been better to put the travellor behind the rear beam and then you would have all the right angles without all the complications in the tramp design?

Agree Wayne that rings are good in some applications and I use them. I've found though that they are rough on rope and a little draggy because they don't have much bearing area. The more the load the better friction rings and shocks are. 

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49 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

I've long held the adage that getting around the course more easily is the quickest way for 95% of sailors, the guns who are prepared to put in the time will always get that last 5% from some pretty difficult equipment to use but why wouldn't you allow a mix of both T's and Z foils, that's something I've always thought should have happened in the A Class at least for the first 5 years, just to let development take place, after all it is development class.

That's for another thread though and please keep this one to the hardware side if we can.

The main point of my post was that A's have a huge racing infrastructure world wide for people to use. That is very attractive to me. 

People tried other foils outside the box rule and there wasn't much potential. 

Anyway I prefer to stay inside class rules. 

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1 hour ago, ita 16 said:

Sorry WW but this isnt correct , fully wrong , S9 have kill A cat in 3 different races , the last was at TFW ,  I have to add that S9 now have almost same performance of Moth .

 All  this is demonstrable, rankings and moovies are published, there is a lot of material about it

You claim nearly as quick as a moth and faster than an A. So that means you claiming the S9 is doing 18-19 knots upwind and 30 knots downwind? Is that correct?

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Wayne

I have taken my time in answering  because I wanted to speak to somebody and make sure i was getting everything correct, but now I can say that you really do need to stop pronouncing on things you have no experience of.

13 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

The Tornado guys did all the boom cascade system development back in the 90's and if they worked out that a 9:1 or 10:1 in boom cascade was enough on a pretty big sail and stiff mast, just maybe the A Class setup has to be wrong somewhere, Its a tiny sail and small mast in comparison.

How can you compare a a 90's T with it's pin head sail and a modern foiling A which is faster and has very different rig concepts. To try to get you on the same page, consider the other development foiling boat, the Moth. 5-6 years ago, their vang was something like 24:1. Now, they are 52:1. It's called development. Things change, as we learn more. I will try to explain it.

The aim is to have the main flat and the leach on the centreline so as to keep height, but to blade out as much of the top of the sail as is needed in order to be able to sheet the sail hard onto the centreline as high up the wind range as possible. The guys foiling upwind at 20+ knots have the sail in as hard as they can pull it. This is the secret to height when foiling. Consider the apparent wind when doing 18 knots upwind in, say 15 knots of breeze. Now imagine on any boat pulling the sail in as hard as you can in that amount of breeze. Then imagine doing it without the leverage of the boom to help. Booms are a real problem with decksweepers. They break masts because of the asymmetric loads they place on the mast. Besides that, you can actually get better control of the bottom of the sail without a boom if you get the cut and sheeting angle right.

Starting with the downhaul, we are now pulling so much more than we were before the decksweeper. In pure numbers, I guess it is something like the cunningham eye coming down an extra 25-30mm. I admit to having an issue of being able to pull enough on and am thinking of changing from 12:1 to either 18 or 24:1 which some are using. This allows you to get rid of the top of the sail, or as much of it as you want to. Next, pull the mainsheet in as hard as you can. I think that once over about 10 knots of wind, it is almost impossible to over sheet. The harder you pull, the more downhaul you can pull on, which means the more you can pull on the mainsheet and so on. We are ending up with a very straight leech and if you ease the sail, the upper leech opens before the foot gets fuller, but if you ease the sail, you lose height, so to depower, you are better off pulling harder and adding more downhaul and pointing up.

This would be made easier if we didn't need to have a sail which can be powered up below about 10 knots where we still need to have the sail as powerful as it was before foiling came along. Compared with any of the rigs you mention, there is a need to transform the sail shape through a  far wider range on the A than on any other cat. As a consequence, the sails have needed to be beefed up a fair amount. A sail made from the material Brewin was using before the decksweeper lasts a fraction of the time of what he is using now.

Your idea of adjusting traveller doesn't work. It's been tried. Easing traveller as a power control leaves the centre of effort at the same height. This is bad. You need to be able to play with the height of that CoE in order to adjust the loads on the foils. Having the traveller up and the sail twisted produces less load on the foils compared with traveller out and sheeting in. Twist therefore becomes a ride height control. The 2 cardinal sins of A Class foiling are not easing enough to unload the foils when needed and not sheeting hard enough for speed, which is why we are moving so much sheet, more than i have ever needed to move on any boat before.

To summarise, loads have increased hugely and are way higher than you will have experienced on any conventional cat. The decksweeper adds a level of complexity because of problems with the boom meaning boomless is considered better by some, increasing loads. Sailing a foiler needs very different technique to a non foiling boat, so don't assume what you know from them is applicable to foilers.

2 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

No not had the chance to sail a foiling A, by the sounds of it I can understand now why it takes so long to learn, which leads you to wonder why you should bother when the learning curve on the S9 seemed so fast. Mmmm

I think you are very mistaken. Have you been following what Charlie has been posting about his S9 journey? It is pretty clear that the challenges of sailing an S9 and  an A are fairly similar. The S9 is easier, but the A isn't as hard as you make out. The learning curve isn't that much steeper on an A. The biggest reason why people struggle with the A is in set up, because as is common with development classes, there are differences with the gear. I cannot say that you need to use a given amount of rudder winglet angle, because that only applies to the rudders I am using. The other thing you and others seem to miss is the attraction of the A is learning those new skills. It is what keeps people coming back, time and again. The satisfaction when you get it right is unreal. Easier to sail doesn't equal better, it just equals different. Add to that rather different speeds and it means that the A has something to offer than some find attractive, just as some will find what the S9 has to offer being attractive. It is no different from how things have always been, back in the day, when you compared A's with other single handed cats. It would be a boring world if we all liked the same thing. What has surprised me is the level of obsession that foiling A's have produced. People who have been more occasional about their sailing are now out all the time. One past poster on this forum used to sail 3 or 4 times a year. From what I hear, he now sails 3 or 4 times a week! I crave to do more, but family pressures and work get in the way.

I think the S9 is a great boat and would consider one if what i wanted was simply to go foiling in a well set up package that was relatively easy to sail. That is not why I sail an A. WnW says it pretty well. I want to sail in fleets with the very best, even if it can be a humbling experience as it was before foiling. I want to have a boat that will constantly stretch me. I want to be part of the cutting edge and I want lots of room for growth in my sailing. I want the option of going to large world championships like I hope we will have here next year. I want large national championships, for that matter. I want to sail with my friends who I have raced for 20+ years and it is great that we oldies are all learning the new skills together which gives us good competition further down the fleet. Those cold Corona's and tall stories are now better than ever.  All of this and more I can only get from the A. When all else fails, sailing my A, lowriding upwind in a decent breeze is still one of the best feelings in cat sailing.

So, don' knock what you don't know.:)

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Wasn't knocking the A's at all, totally acknowledge at this stage that they are the leaders, the F1's of our sailing small cats. And yes they have the best fleets, best sailors, best developments, best of a lot of things and I totally admire them as the best looking boats out there.

But do I want to be part of that, mmmm I'm getting too old in the body to have to sail 3 times a week just to be able to foil well, that would restrict my mountain biking time, my golf and the other occasional sports I take part in. Am I willing to trade 20+ knots on the modified sea hugger A that I have that doesn't suffer from being beaten on the course from lack of spinnaker ( you can be surprised just how long the spinnaker boats can hold off the A's on shorter courses with good tactics ) for a boat that will do 5+ knots faster all round but need huge financial resources and vast time on the water to achieve that.

Mmmmm I have an A waiting to be modified, but I'm not sold just yet, teetering on top of the fence though. :D

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Again, you miss the point or distort the picture. The only people sailing 3 times a week are those trying to win the worlds. Most people sail once a week or less and still foil OK. The reason people are sailing more isn't because they need to to be able to sail the boat. It is because the sailing is so good and it really is not the ridiculously difficult challenge you keep imply it is. If it were, we would see a lot of people leaving the class but if you were good enough to sail an a on foiling A competently, you can sail a foiling A. At the risk of being boring, I will repeat that the issue is almost always one of how to set the boat up. A well set up boat foils very nicely. An averagely set up boat makes life tough while a badly set up boat would make a megastar look average.

Maybe by the time you convert yours, somebody will have written a manual that not only tells you how to set the boat up, but also explains what you are trying to do when foiling.

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Definitely missing the picture Wayne. The foiling challenge is sooo fun, I don't really want to sail anything else (though I love doublehanded sailing and the F18 fleet is one of the most fun out there). And you don't have to have major financial resources (its cheaper than a Moth for sure) plus the crashes are a lot easier to manage IMO. I've never pushed a cat as hard as I have this foiling Exploder D3 and felt sooo comfortable downwind on the trap wire, and again I've got 2 hours on the boat!!!

I do hope someone writes a tuning guide for the Exploder D3 at some point, that is a little frustrating as there is a lot of misinformation out there.

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5 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

You claim nearly as quick as a moth and faster than an A. So that means you claiming the S9 is doing 18-19 knots upwind and 30 knots downwind? Is that correct?

Yes moovies don't show us anything at all about speed around a course. I haven't seen any race results which show the S9 to be faster than either the A or Moth. Perhaps ita16 can give us links to those race results against sailors in the world top ten in either of those classes. My understanding is the A sailor who won the foiling week event had never sailed A's before. Results against Brewin, Heemskirk, Landenberger, Ashby, Anderson, or anyone in the world top ten in the last couple of years would be more meaningful. 

My main point though is that the S9 has been promoted as a recreational foiler and as such may well be successful. It doesn't seem to be a competitor to the A which a full on racer with major pedigree and wide world dustribution. I wish the S9 every success but it's not in the same ballpark as the A. 

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59 minutes ago, WetnWild said:

Yes moovies don't show us anything at all about speed around a course. I haven't seen any race results which show the S9 to be faster than either the A or Moth. Perhaps ita16 can give us links to those race results against sailors in the world top ten in either of those classes. My understanding is the A sailor who won the foiling week event had never sailed A's before. Results against Brewin, Heemskirk, Landenberger, Ashby, Anderson, or anyone in the world top ten in the last couple of years would be more meaningful. 

My main point though is that the S9 has been promoted as a recreational foiler and as such may well be successful. It doesn't seem to be a competitor to the A which a full on racer with major pedigree and wide world dustribution. I wish the S9 every success but it's not in the same ballpark as the A. 

 

2017-07-10 13.15.08.png

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1 hour ago, WetnWild said:

Yes moovies don't show us anything at all about speed around a course. I haven't seen any race results which show the S9 to be faster than either the A or Moth. Perhaps ita16 can give us links to those race results against sailors in the world top ten in either of those classes. My understanding is the A sailor who won the foiling week event had never sailed A's before. Results against Brewin, Heemskirk, Landenberger, Ashby, Anderson, or anyone in the world top ten in the last couple of years would be more meaningful. 

My main point though is that the S9 has been promoted as a recreational foiler and as such may well be successful. It doesn't seem to be a competitor to the A which a full on racer with major pedigree and wide world dustribution. I wish the S9 every success but it's not in the same ballpark as the A. 

 

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 10 knods wind , S9 downwind speed full time up to 20 .IMG-20170719-WA0012.thumb.jpg.883023a4b154fc02fd38f71be854fc63.jpg

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25 minutes ago, ita 16 said:

 

2017-07-10 13.15.08.png

No idea who these people are. Where did they come in the last few A worlds. 

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16 minutes ago, ita 16 said:

 10 knods wind , S9 downwind speed full time up to 20 .IMG-20170719-WA0012.thumb.jpg.883023a4b154fc02fd38f71be854fc63.jpg

So about 10 knots less than a well sailed foiling A. 

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WW , Why you compare aloways top PRO sailors wiht normal sailors ? 

Stefano Casadei was on top 5 in Italy .

You mean that A cat speed its 3 times wind speed ? So much more than Moth and AC cat ? Funny .

Have you more pictures data and moovie but less words ? 

 

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33 minutes ago, WetnWild said:

So about 10 knots less than a well sailed foiling A. 

Massive gybe angles.  You 

 

50 minutes ago, ita 16 said:

 10 knods wind , S9 downwind speed full time up to 20 .IMG-20170719-WA0012.thumb.jpg.883023a4b154fc02fd38f71be854fc63.jpg

Massive gybe angles,  you might have been travelling quick but you weren't getting anywhere.

 

assuming the 21 knots was on the typical track your vmg was about 8.5 knots

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Ok ,  so a question :

why on TFW  list downwind races S9 beat A cat ? 

Why you can see the same on moovie ? 

When you guys speak about S9 is a good scool boat but not a good races boat , its like say same things about A cat , 

If we analyze wery well what you say ,moovie , pictures and data , we can understand that something is really wrong .

 

 

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1 hour ago, ita 16 said:

Why on TFW  list downwind races S9 beat A cat ? 

 

Because you were sailing against some very poor A Class sailors. I am not very good compared with the top guys, but in 10 knots, I would be disappointed with 20 knots downwind and I make far better angles than you are making. I would post a track, but there is no way I can prove what the wind is doing, just like you cannot.

The only way of comparing boats is when good people are on board. I have to assume that the S9 sailors such as yourself have a lot of experience and have your boats set up properly. We have seen the videos of less experienced S9 sailors, such as Charlie and the speeds he is making. You say that Stefano Casadei was top 5 in Italy, but one of the A's that beat him finished 74th in the last worlds. Not exactly the best to be comparing yourself against. I also checked other results and it is clear that the A sailors you raced aren't even in the top half of a decent fleet.  So let's compare like with like.

The top A Class sailors are doing pretty close to 3 times wind speed downwind at lower wind speeds and then it becomes a case of diminishing returns. At 15 knots, it is "only" 2 x wind speed. In 10 knots, the top A Class sailors are doing pretty close to 20 knots as well, but that is upwind. 

Upwind in a straight line, the top A's are now faster and higher than the top Moths if they are foiling and the difference is not insignificant. I admit that they have only lined up in flat water and I am only going by what i have been told, but I have no reason to disbelieve it because it was a moth sailor who told me. Downwind I believe they are very similar. the moth makes big gains because of foiling tacks and gybes which the A's cannot currently do, although there are stories around that foiling gybes have been achieved with the A. The top A Class sailors in Australia are being very quiet about what speeds they are achieving in the lead up to the worlds, but give it a few weeks and we will know more. The only claim I have seen was on facebook before the last nationals that said they had done 21 knots upwind. What we saw at the last nationals where GPS was not allowed and comments from the Queensland state titles make that number totally believable. 

It's always really hard to compare the performance of boats when skill levels need to be taken into account. What i am pretty confident about is that so long as you are talking about people who can properly sail the boats and of the same ability, either on an S9, Moth or A, the S9 is going to be slower than the other 2. The real question is, so what? Does that make the S9 a worse boat? Far from it. It is a great boat. I suspect that its lower speeds are actually a positive. I have never been so scared sailing as when I hit 25 knots on the A. I was totally out of control and had a big stack. I don't want to go that fast. It's funny how 3 knots more felt as if I was doing 10 knots more.

It seems to me that easier to sail, faster to learn, more control and no scary speeds are real positives for the S9.

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21 knots upwind? Significantly faster than a top Moth? I don't care about whether the A was being sailed by an average Joe or a megastar. That is pretty incredible. 25 knots downwind isn't shabby, but would be a bit off the good moths.

What is the lowest wind that you can foil upwind. There is mention above of foiling in 10 knots, but can you do it in less? Paul Larson thought you needed closer to 12 knots to foil upwind but said that downwind, the aim is 6-7 knots. 

How close are people to foiling gybes and tacks? That would make the big difference if racing a Moth.

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Really funny  , sorry guys but chat with you is a Waste of time .

Please , better you test S9 before to speak about it , 

Ciao 

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Juhuu, another pissing contest started by ita 16.

You make some pretty cools boats, but why do you always promote your own stuff every time an a-cat is mentioned? Buy an add, if you need to sell some more.

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8 minutes ago, lars75k said:

Juhuu, another pissing contest started by ita 16.

You make some pretty cools boats, but why do you always promote your own stuff every time an a-cat is mentioned? Buy an add, if you need to sell some more.

75  , WHAT PLEASE ?????, Newer Im promote something in this forum , wehe you have read???

Im  just took the defenses of my S9, instead wasting time here you can come to make a direct confrontation on water with your boat ws S9 , so we can close this chapter.

Or you like to keep it open ????????

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Now boys, can you put your dicks away and can we get back to the mechanics and engineering please.

A question on those using a line from the top block, down the clew line to a middle block, how much tension does it put on the sail and can just a heavier batten cope with those forces ?

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Hi ita 16

Why all this comparing? It's different boats, both targeting a large group of sailors who want to go flying! There's probably a room for both.

But you are off course welcome to drop by my sailing club, or else you can join any of our local races?

See you

Lars

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ita16, my advice is for you to stop comparing yourself to the A-Cat. It is clear by one of your recent posts that you are interested in selling t-foil systems to A cat sailors considering a conversion, so some amount of comparison may be made but you are targeting the recreational foiler and one design sailor, not the typical A or Mothie who are actively racing in a development class! Also, I'm not sure how extensive your test data is. I only know of three catamaran sailing groups doing heavy amounts of testing on foiling beach catamarans (I mean AC level testing with full data collection etc.), and none are in Italy so your data points are by default are unlikely to compare high average A cat speeds against high average S9 speeds. I suspect the S9 is a bit faster to get up to racing speed than the A, but both require time on the water, and the A a fair bit of fiddling time. I'm sworn to secrecy on top A cat speeds but yes they are comparable to a Moth. I do think with the current span limits upwind takeoff is limited to >11-12kts of wind speed and it takes a pro to make this pay to weather right now.

Wayne,

  I don't have a strain gauge in my mainsheet system so I can't tell you this unfortunately. I'm also running a rig with a boom at the moment (boomless sail is enroute), but a heavy air batten in the bottom of the sail seems to cope nicely. Its not something I worry about too much.

 

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Another pissing contest. I guess there must be some history I m unaware of, because ita 16 seems to have a chip on his shoulder about A's while the A Class boys aren't that much better.

I wonder how many people have sailed both boats? Question for ita 16. Have you sailed a modern, competitive A Class foiler? I have sailed both the S9 and A at Rutland in about 8-10 knots. I think that means that I can comment based on equal sailing ability in both boats and to set the picture, I have sailed Moths for a couple of years, so have some idea about foiling. Both are very good but they are very different. The A is much more of a challenge, but you could tell it was faster, although I would imagine that to start with, people might get faster speeds from the S9 as it is easier to achieve. Speed isn't everything and I don't think anybody would make their buying decision on that. It seems to me that the boats are aimed at different markets.

I hope the cat community will excuse the following comparisons, but to bring it back to my world of dinghies, this is like comparing a 29er and a 49er (forget the youth element) or an RS800 and Int 14. and then arguing about which is the better boat. It is a pointless debate, because they are aimed at a different market even though they might appear to hae similarities. I find it hard to believe that somebody who would buy an S9 would prefer an A or the other way around.

To be clear, the A is a beast of a boat compared with the S9, in every aspect. It is bigger and more powerful yet it feels lighter. It feels like it might bite at any moment and when you make a mistake, it seems unforgiving compared with the S9. For some, that will be the reason to buy the S9 and for others, it will be why they buy the A.

I also don't understand the fascination with speed by ita 16. The slowest Olympic class is the most popular. 

I also don't understand the intense sense of rivalry that there seems to be from ita 16. The A Class boys seem to at least acknowledge the S9 is a good boat. I was taught in my commerce course that having different products in a similar market usually expands that market and therefore is a good thing. The A makes the market bigger for the S9 than it would be without it and the same the other way around. The more foiling classes there are, the more likely that foiling will grow as a segment. I believe the 2 boats should co-exist really well so maybe it is time to chill out.

 

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30 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Another pissing contest. I guess there must be some history I m unaware of, because ita 16 seems to have a chip on his shoulder about A's while the A Class boys aren't that much better.

I wonder how many people have sailed both boats? Question for ita 16. Have you sailed a modern, competitive A Class foiler? I have sailed both the S9 and A at Rutland in about 8-10 knots. I think that means that I can comment based on equal sailing ability in both boats and to set the picture, I have sailed Moths for a couple of years, so have some idea about foiling. Both are very good but they are very different. The A is much more of a challenge, but you could tell it was faster, although I would imagine that to start with, people might get faster speeds from the S9 as it is easier to achieve. Speed isn't everything and I don't think anybody would make their buying decision on that. It seems to me that the boats are aimed at different markets.

I hope the cat community will excuse the following comparisons, but to bring it back to my world of dinghies, this is like comparing a 29er and a 49er (forget the youth element) or an RS800 and Int 14. and then arguing about which is the better boat. It is a pointless debate, because they are aimed at a different market even though they might appear to hae similarities. I find it hard to believe that somebody who would buy an S9 would prefer an A or the other way around.

To be clear, the A is a beast of a boat compared with the S9, in every aspect. It is bigger and more powerful yet it feels lighter. It feels like it might bite at any moment and when you make a mistake, it seems unforgiving compared with the S9. For some, that will be the reason to buy the S9 and for others, it will be why they buy the A.

I also don't understand the fascination with speed by ita 16. The slowest Olympic class is the most popular. 

I also don't understand the intense sense of rivalry that there seems to be from ita 16. The A Class boys seem to at least acknowledge the S9 is a good boat. I was taught in my commerce course that having different products in a similar market usually expands that market and therefore is a good thing. The A makes the market bigger for the S9 than it would be without it and the same the other way around. The more foiling classes there are, the more likely that foiling will grow as a segment. I believe the 2 boats should co-exist really well so maybe it is time to chill out.

 

+1 

Exactly the point I was trying to make on my posts #47 & #63 however you make it more clearly  

 

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Yess . now all its clear 

 You are right

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6 hours ago, ita 16 said:

Yess . now all its clear 

 You are right

Jethro Tull 

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You have to be ancient and as old as I to remember Jethro Tull and no Michele wouldn't even know who Jethro Tull was :D you may want to explain a little.

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Haha . Do not worry . Sometimes in the past I played their music ;);)

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1 hour ago, Waynemarlow said:

You have to be ancient and as old as I to remember Jethro Tull and no Michele wouldn't even know who Jethro Tull was :D you may want to explain a little.

No more hints beyond 1972 album:)

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On 7/12/2017 at 5:39 AM, Waynemarlow said:

Now for you A foiling sailors, Isn't that exactly what most foiling boats presently lack, a wider wind band, with less adjustment, with shorter mast length and your rules allows a jib. ( please don't quote Randy Smythes attempt at this as he went for a much larger jib than a blade jib ).

I just saw a branny- new Smyth boomless sail on a new C-board A-cat.  No jib was in evidence.  Bob Orr owner. 

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3 hours ago, dacarls said:

I just saw a branny- new Smyth boomless sail on a new C-board A-cat.  No jib was in evidence.  Bob Orr owner. 

Carolijn Brouwer, Stevie Brewin and Andrew Landenberger have all been trying shorter rigs for some time. On the basis that the lower centre of effort makes them a bit more controllable. They haven't bothered with the extra complication of a jib. The jury is still out but indications are the shorter rig was no faster. Proof will be what they take to the Worlds. 

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On 7/18/2017 at 11:06 AM, CoolBreeze said:

TA

The system on your boat works just fine, I know this because I built it. Your issue might be that you need to hit the gym:)

You won't be able to go to an under tramp sheeting system unless you go to the short straight track and mod your tramp heavily to allow the open slot you require.

 

Looks like it isn't the gym I have to hit, at least for now.  Just found out I completely tore my Subscapularis Tendon 12 months ago and have been trying to sail like that all last season.   Looks like the A Class training will be put off for a while whilst I get cut open. :-(

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On 7/22/2017 at 0:35 PM, dacarls said:

I just saw a branny- new Smyth boomless sail on a new C-board A-cat.  No jib was in evidence.  Bob Orr owner. 

That's funny, because on Sunday he was rigging a Glaser sail while I was drilling holes in my transom for the Exploder rudder gudgeons. You may have the wrong person...

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On 22 July 2017 at 4:13 PM, WetnWild said:

Jethro Tull 

Actually that's pretty funny WnW! Have you been drinking Mexican beer again?

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5 hours ago, Sonofabitch said:

Actually that's pretty funny WnW! Have you been drinking Mexican beer again?

Haha if only. Too expensive in Helsinki. 

I'm looking for an Urquell. 

Welcome back Abitch. Is Agun around?

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^^ haven't heard from Agun for many months. Think there's a new boat coming with many secrets picked up in Bemuda. Surprising he hasn't commented this thread. Was a pioneer of under tramp main sheet on A Class. Good luck to him I say

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39 minutes ago, Sonofabitch said:

^^ haven't heard from Agun for many months. Think there's a new boat coming with many secrets picked up in Bemuda. Surprising he hasn't commented this thread. Was a pioneer of under tramp main sheet on A Class. Good luck to him I say

Don't care about you hopeless jokes down under. Found some Tigers for 6.5 Euro. 

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