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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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41 posts in this topic

Brian Hancock opines on records, good ones, great ones, indifferent ones.

Before I launch into today's blog let me correct a mistake I made in the  piece I wrote yesterday about Mighty Merloe and the Transpac. In the blog I mentioned that Phaedo3 might well have beaten Mighty Merloe had Crew Boss Brian Thompson not been sidelined with an injury. Brian is an incredibly talented sailor and they may indeed have won, but they didn’t. I then went on to state that Brian Thompson would have to wait to add Transpac Record Holder to his resume.

Well I was wrong. Pete Melvin from Melvin and Morelli Design and Engineering kindly pointed out that Brian was one of the crew on Steve Fossett's Lakota, an ORMA 60 trimaran that set a new Transpac race and outright course World Record in 1995. I stand corrected and wonder, is there anything Brian hasn’t won?

There were two major sailing related happenings overnight. One I am having a hard time mustering the energy to get excited about and the other is simply awesome and stunning. Comanche set a new monohull record in the Transpac finishing yesterday in a time of 5 days, 1 hour, 55 minutes and 26 seconds. Why am I not excited about this? I don’t know. I have absolutely nothing against skipper Ken Read and the boat and crew but it’s just such a yawn. They came in just under a day after a boat almost half their size set the multihull record with half the number of crew on board. Yes I was excited about Mighty Merloe. Let me just acknowledge Comanche’s record and congratulate the crew.

Now let me tell you about the other record that was set and you may get some idea of why I am not gushing about Comanche. French sailor Francis Joyon smashed his own singlehanded transatlantic record sailing from Sandy Hook, New Jersey to Lizard Point on the west coast of England. I guess smashed may be a bit of an exaggeration.

He knocked 49 minutes off the existing record, his record, to finish in a time of 5 days, 2 hours and 7 minutes. Just think about this. One person, alone, on a 100-foot trimaran, ripped it up across the Atlantic making is seem almost effortless setting a new world record along the way. Now that is newsworthy. And best yet he was not trying to set a record. If he was he would have waited until a perfect weather window occurred. No, he simply wanted to beat the Cruise Liner Queen Mary 2 and took off at the same time as the QM2 left New York. The Queen Mary 2, by the way, is still out there and not expected to arrive in England until Thursday morning.

I dunno. I have taken some heat in the past for calling Comanche an unimaginative, slab sided design so I am not going to say anything this time…:)  I appreciate that people like Jim Clark pour money into sailing and I am very happy that he does. His money keeps many in the industry employed. But seriously, Joyon, alone, on a boat that big, without any fanfare romps across the pond as if he was out for an afternoon cruise. Now that is simply spectacular, at least I think it is.

How about you?

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So what did KR do to you? You don't think Comanche is much to get excited about, I get that. 

What I don't understand is what's with the passive aggressive notes about KR? What did he do to you? 

 

When I'm not excited about something, I just don't write about it or think about it. I don't write a blurb that's basically ad hominem then claim oh I'm not excited. He's obviously on your mind. 

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+1 Miffy. I'm a little over the whole KR/Comanche bashing on the front page. Yeah the boat doesn't excite me like a big multi but its still the badest ride out there with one hull-that's something you may not fully understand until she comes ripping through your lee at 20+ kts on the way to another record. Last I checked the multis still weren't allowed in races like the Sydney to Hobart, so if you want to play in everything you basically have to have a mono (unfortunately). I know I'll be following Comanche if she sets sail for an around the world record, because that is still something no big monohull has really attempted (and the food provisions alone may dictate why that is).

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Count me as another that has a hard time getting excited about monohull records, but that being said, it is again totally bush league to drop the comment that "we're not a fan of Ken..."  Why make the stupid comment?  Maybe they are not a fan because he is actually one that cares about some class, maybe because he helped out with the AC broadcasts, so that makes him a corporate sell-out?  That is lame.

Camanche is an amazing boat, and it is great spectacle to see her up racing against other boats of her class, which is what makes Hobart awesome, getting such powerful beasts up against eachother is cool, the racing is compelling, even if they would have their asses handed to them by multis.  If Rio was competitive with her in the Transpac, it would have made the Comanche win a hell of a lot more interesting, but as it is, a Transpac win, the monohull record, well, not so exciting..  But that is more a hit on the lack of competition rather than a hit on the boat or skipper.

By the way, weren't the eds pretty hot on the boat when it was cubed?

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56 minutes ago, Miffy said:

 what's with the passive aggressive notes about KR? What did he do to you? 

lol

"can you show us on the doll where the bad man touched you?"

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Let me see if I got this right...it seems Comanche sucks, fast catamarans (see AC comments) suck.  KR sucks, JS sucks, LE sucks, Russell sucks, but then Bertarelli also sucked.  Cayard sucked.  IIRC Wild Oats also sucked, so maybe its all big monohulls suck.  I think Ben Ainslie also sucked, and so did the Swedes and the Japanese and then there's the Chinese...their Olympics sucked, right?.  Melges 32's apparently suck...or maybe that's PHRF...or both.  J-105s suck.  Key West sucked.  Do Stars suck? I can't remember.  Didn't Kosteki suck?  So hard to keep up.

In the dynamic duo's world view, I guess to be completely safe from sucking, you have to race big trimarans and be French.  I'm pretty sure that foiling moths also don't suck, and maybe some other "boats".  

But the real determination for non-suckage apparently is...Do they advertise?  or more importantly....Did they invite me along for a ride?  

I think I get it now.

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3 minutes ago, Go Left said:

Let me see if I got this right...it seems Comanche sucks, fast catamarans (see AC comments) suck.  KR sucks, JS sucks, LE sucks, Russell sucks, but then Bertarelli also sucked.  Cayard sucked.  IIRC Wild Oats also sucked, so maybe its all big monohulls suck.  I think Ben Ainslie also sucked, and so did the Swedes and the Japanese and then there's the Chinese...their Olympics sucked, right?.  Melges 32's apparently suck...or maybe that's PHRF...or both.  J-105s suck.  Key West sucked.  Do Stars suck? I can't remember.  Didn't Kosteki suck?  So hard to keep up.

In the dynamic duo's world view, I guess to be completely safe from sucking, you have to race big trimarans and be French.  I'm pretty sure that foiling moths also don't suck, and maybe some other "boats".  

But the real determination for non-suckage apparently is...Do they advertise?  or more importantly....Did they invite me along for a ride?  

I think I get it now.

Don't forget Trump....

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it's your site you can wright about whatever you want, I come to this site to get up to date news and sometimes if you

deem it to suck be it- boat,class,regatta or a person you ether don't cover it or bash it, fortunately for your site the public

contributes in the way of your forum's  

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31 minutes ago, Go Left said:

Let me see if I got this right...it seems Comanche sucks, fast catamarans (see AC comments) suck.  KR sucks, JS sucks, LE sucks, Russell sucks, but then Bertarelli also sucked.  Cayard sucked.  IIRC Wild Oats also sucked, so maybe its all big monohulls suck.  I think Ben Ainslie also sucked, and so did the Swedes and the Japanese and then there's the Chinese...their Olympics sucked, right?.  Melges 32's apparently suck...or maybe that's PHRF...or both.  J-105s suck.  Key West sucked.  Do Stars suck? I can't remember.  Didn't Kosteki suck?  So hard to keep up.

In the dynamic duo's world view, I guess to be completely safe from sucking, you have to race big trimarans and be French.  I'm pretty sure that foiling moths also don't suck, and maybe some other "boats".  

But the real determination for non-suckage apparently is...Do they advertise?  or more importantly....Did they invite me along for a ride?  

I think I get it now.

Well said! I enjoy this website, but the front page ranting and hate really gets tedious.

A term used to describe extremist liberals that get offended by every statement and/or belief that doesn't exactly match their own. These individuals think they are just as "unique" as snowflakes, when really their feelings are just as fragile.

 

 

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Why oh why do we keep doing this....comparing records.  Yes, we get it trimarans and cat are fast sexy hot.  Monohulls suck.  But to compare records, speeds, that's just plain dumb.  No one with a brain expects a monohull to beat a multihull in speed so why the fuck do we care.  Hey did you hear that Spin Drift 2 beat the Flying Cloud record....man those clipper ships suck.  I mean, how many sailors do you need to sail one of those things.

Hey, it you like to play fantasy, how about we take single french guy and put him on Comanche and see how well he does....Oh right, their two fucking different boats designed completely different.  God this multi thing is getting purial and I'm with Go Left on this one.

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If you leave out the comparison there would be less internet drama...

That said I think what Francis did was cooler because it seems so care free and offhanded. The other Ultime did not try the same trick, I wonder what they are up to.

The next cool record of the week already goes to Simon Koster and Yo Wiebel. They set a new 24h distance record for beach cats of 361nm (if I read their GPS picture right) on a Nacra 20 FCS. Across the Baltic, Sweden to Poland. Major deductions for almost sinking on the last miles though, they needed an SAR tow. (Lost a rudder dropped of the foil and then a cut daggerboard casing filling the hull with water...)

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27 minutes ago, Chasm said:

If you leave out the comparison there would be less internet drama...

That said I think what Francis did was cooler because it seems so care free and offhanded. The other Ultime did not try the same trick, I wonder what they are up to.

The next cool record of the week already goes to Simon Koster and Yo Wiebel. They set a new 24h distance record for beach cats of 361nm (if I read their GPS picture right) on a Nacra 20 FCS. Across the Baltic, Sweden to Poland. Major deductions for almost sinking on the last miles though, they needed an SAR tow. (Lost a rudder dropped of the foil and then a cut daggerboard casing filling the hull with water...)

Love records.  They make great milestones.  It's just banal to compare one type of boat with a completely different kind of boat.  How bored are we when we have to start to make up shit just to grab interest.  btw does the Nacra 20 FCS also get a record for most bad shit happening almost all at once? B)

Hey editor, mutli's suck compared to ice boats.  Bet they never break the unofficial iceboat record and here's one that you can compare to your dear sweet foilers and multis
 

 

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48 minutes ago, Chasm said:

If you leave out the comparison there would be less internet drama...

That said I think what Francis did was cooler because it seems so care free and offhanded. The other Ultime did not try the same trick, I wonder what they are up to.

The next cool record of the week already goes to Simon Koster and Yo Wiebel. They set a new 24h distance record for beach cats of 361nm (if I read their GPS picture right) on a Nacra 20 FCS. Across the Baltic, Sweden to Poland. Major deductions for almost sinking on the last miles though, they needed an SAR tow. (Lost a rudder dropped of the foil and then a cut daggerboard casing filling the hull with water...)

Link to the F20FCS story?

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Shock-jock media. Simple. Gets the juices flowing and people talking. Generating hits is what it is all about. 

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Exactly right, its all different and not really to compare.

Comanche because it is the high end of the mono route. No powered winches like some of the others. 
The ORMA60 because it beat the bigger MOD70 including the very tricked out Phaedo3. (And the much more expensive Comanche too.)
The smaller boats in the back fleet because there is actually some racing against each other. B) And because some come back again and again for more.
The Nacra is of course in their own whacky department.

FCS20 story.
Not too much in English yet, use google translate on their site: https://offshore-foiling.com/ Or via FB https://www.facebook.com/offshorefoiling/
Simon Koster is known for his frog green Mini. Yo Wiebel was the other guy for Frank Cammas FCS20 Cape Horn rounding last year.

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I love that you guys think ANY of these records didn't require a shitton of money.  

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2 hours ago, GauchoGreg said:

 

By the way, weren't the eds pretty hot on the boat when it was cubed?

Oh so very true.  Boat tours with Ken and endless articles on how the build was going.

Ed and Clean are good at hating and they fall out of love real quick

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Judgig by the very next item, not all big expensive monos are tragically uncool and totally suck, Maxi 72s look like they still get a pass.

"Sure there’s not a lot of them, but these big rich boy toys are pretty fuckin’ wicked"

What a joke.

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@Editor: Re: New Thread Post, by Brian Hancock: 

I'm not editing your post in this new thread, Brian Hancock, else I'd charge someone my editing fees, which don't come cheaply. (I only edited an excerpt of your post yesterday on the "Sailing Anarchy" home page.)

Do you not edit your writing, or is "SAILfeed" ok with your sloppy work? Or do you think you don't have to bother here in "Sailing Anarchy?"

I can only hope you tie ropes better on your boat than how you write, but I'm guessing you may be sloppy on board too.

Definitely not cool, notwithstanding you're "one of the most experienced sailors in North America" (SAILfeed bio). Not cool at all.

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I don't think this was explicitly stated but Joyon's new on-a-lark solo record at 5d 2h 7min is actually faster than Comanche's transatlantic record of 5:14:21. Assuming they're using the same start and end points which I think is true.

I have no idea from what weird place the front page antics come from but I can see that if you hang around pro sailing and talk to people trying to put race programs together, building a large monohull to break monohull records does indeed seem a quixotic pursuit. Or at least it's something a billionaire who doesn't have to answer to anyone might do whereas sponsor driven programs in France where they actually have sponsors have all logically gone to the area where there is public interest which is either solo racing or multihulls. Or solo multihulls, because all these are extreme enough and progressive enough to warrant coverage. It's tough to watch guys like Eric Holden (Go Canada!) or Ryan Breymaier being unable to put a Vendee program together while the Comanche project is run at much vaster expense as a hobby. It's an ostentatious extravagance that rankles in this new gilded age, where even the hobby Mod70 projects like Phaedo seem both more exciting and more economical.

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Back to Joyon: after arriving in NYC (for the crewed East/W race) he took a 2 day rest and just left -like that - for the record. THIS I like. I remember reading about last time he went for the same, he grabbed a guy from the dock and asked him to provision some food (later commenting that they had to endure Ukrainian food cause the guy happened to be Ukrainian).... something like that. Nice contrast to all those programs that take themselves so seriously and try to evacuate the risk.

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5 hours ago, Foiling Optimist said:

I don't think this was explicitly stated but Joyon's new on-a-lark solo record at 5d 2h 7min is actually faster than Comanche's transatlantic record of 5:14:21. Assuming they're using the same start and end points which I think is true.

I have no idea from what weird place the front page antics come from but I can see that if you hang around pro sailing and talk to people trying to put race programs together, building a large monohull to break monohull records does indeed seem a quixotic pursuit. Or at least it's something a billionaire who doesn't have to answer to anyone might do whereas sponsor driven programs in France where they actually have sponsors have all logically gone to the area where there is public interest which is either solo racing or multihulls. Or solo multihulls, because all these are extreme enough and progressive enough to warrant coverage. It's tough to watch guys like Eric Holden (Go Canada!) or Ryan Breymaier being unable to put a Vendee program together while the Comanche project is run at much vaster expense as a hobby. It's an ostentatious extravagance that rankles in this new gilded age, where even the hobby Mod70 projects like Phaedo seem both more exciting and more economical.

What is your point? Hate on Comanche because it is hard to do? Maybe your point on public interest is the larger point, and how that counts against Mr. Clarke and Comanche is beyond me.

If you think Phaedo is a hobby project, you clearly should stick to weeknight racing.

 

I forgot, you stated you "hang around pro sailing". Cool...

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I don't hang around pro sailing at all. I'm saying the Eds do, so they are influenced by people who are trying to make a living at it rather than by people who have a great deal of money and are doing it for fun. Which if true makes the odd comments about Ken Read even odder. 

Re Phaedo or Comanche, would you say either of these racing programs have commercial objectives? Or, do they not have commercial objectives but perhaps is there another word than "hobby" that would be more appropriate? I'm not at all saying they're not serious, just not commercially oriented because the principals already have money so there doesn't need to be any branding. 

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Francis Joyon, is a sailors sailor....

enough said.... go idec go....

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Successful people are bashing game for the uninvited or underperformer that has no grace.

25 years ago I took a tip from Brad Read and Ken chimed in as well, great advice from a couple of knowledgeable and successful sailors.  

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, proOC said:

Successful people are bashing game for the uninvited or underperformer that has no grace.

25 years ago I took a tip from Brad Read and Ken chimed in as well, great advice from a couple of knowledgeable and successful sailors.  

 

 

 

Pretty sure the dude who wrote that is neither of those.

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1 hour ago, proOC said:

agreed.

So you go from saying Brian Hancock is bashing to Brian Hancock isn't? 

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Someone bashed someone and I am not involved bashing.   Never heard of em...

 

3 hours ago, TPG said:

So you go from saying Brian Hancock is bashing to Brian Hancock isn't? 

 

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18 hours ago, proOC said:

Someone bashed someone and I am not involved bashing.   Never heard of em...

 

 

He wrote the article.

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On 7/13/2017 at 0:00 AM, J/120 said:

What is your point? Hate on Comanche because it is hard to do? Maybe your point on public interest is the larger point, and how that counts against Mr. Clarke and Comanche is beyond me.

If you think Phaedo is a hobby project, you clearly should stick to weeknight racing.

 

I forgot, you stated you "hang around pro sailing". Cool...

Phaedo is 100% a hobby project, just like Comanche.  Major difference is that the owner actually does all the races and records aboard Phaedo (and is one of the best drivers aboard now).  

 

 

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13 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Phaedo is 100% a hobby project, just like Comanche.  Major difference is that the owner actually does all the races and records aboard Phaedo (and is one of the best drivers aboard now).  

 

 

Isn't all sailing for owners hobbies ? Full credit to Mr Clarke he build an amazing boat and is trying to break records but he also did say from the start he may not be able to do much racing on her due to arthritis in his hand .

 

 

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14 minutes ago, quezal said:

Isn't all sailing for owners hobbies ? Full credit to Mr Clarke he build an amazing boat and is trying to break records but he also did say from the start he may not be able to do much racing on her due to arthritis in his hand .

 

 

I'm glad he built a big boat and hired a bunch of good people.  It's a shame he built a boat that was so heavy and conservative that it was more or less obsolete when designed - something the designer told Clarke and his program manager - and that if anyone ever felt like designing a proper record breaker, Comanche's records would fall immediately. In other words, unlike ALL the open records, the only reason Comanche has been successful is because there's no other old guy who wants to buy monohull records.

 

I don't know it's bashing or hating to say that we are unimpressed with the boat.  Having followed the program in great detail, including crawling all over the very well-built and managed beast, it's just not impressive outside of being a big, powerful tool.  And literally every designer I have spoken to about it feels roughly the same.  And  of course the French and Brit solo guys call it "The Lorry"

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I

I don't know it's bashing or hating to say that we are unimpressed with the boat.  Having followed the program in great detail, including crawling all over the very well-built and managed beast, it's just not impressive outside of being a big, powerful tool.  And literally every designer I have spoken to about it feels roughly the same.  And  of course the French and Brit solo guys call it "The Lorry"

 

 

 

It feels like when the Mari Chas all hit the water. Massive monsters with huge number of crew. Seeing IV in person racing was a site to behold. Same with the Maxis. 20 guys on the rail! Fucking hell! I thought we were getting lighter faster better? And its kind of a devolution to back to huge crews while the pickleforks are absolutely smashing records with a guy by himself.

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The lorry........lol..............

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It's interesting to speculate on what might have been, but somewhat akin to various other solo internet pursuits too often pursued by cranky homebodies, best left unmentioned, the sound of an idiot signifying nothing, or one hand clapping or whatever metaphor fits. 

Kudos to those who get out and try, whether to better their performance with the family slogging along with blown sails, or setting $1E8 on fire to the enrichment of the marine industry.  It's all good, to do, to watch and to benefit from derivative technology. 

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How wide would the stern of that be ???  The Big Injun might have competition.

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On 7/15/2017 at 7:06 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

I'm glad he built a big boat and hired a bunch of good people.  It's a shame he built a boat that was so heavy and conservative that it was more or less obsolete when designed - something the designer told Clarke and his program manager - and that if anyone ever felt like designing a proper record breaker, Comanche's records would fall immediately. In other words, unlike ALL the open records, the only reason Comanche has been successful is because there's no other old guy who wants to buy monohull records.

 

I don't know it's bashing or hating to say that we are unimpressed with the boat.  Having followed the program in great detail, including crawling all over the very well-built and managed beast, it's just not impressive outside of being a big, powerful tool.  And literally every designer I have spoken to about it feels roughly the same.  And  of course the French and Brit solo guys call it "The Lorry"

 

 

 

Like many have said, knock the boat as it is. Just seems rather dishonest when the "knock the boat" includes thinly veiled personal grief at the owner and skipper. For reasons unknown. 

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On 7/15/2017 at 5:06 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

I'm glad he built a big boat and hired a bunch of good people.  It's a shame he built a boat that was so heavy and conservative that it was more or less obsolete when designed - something the designer told Clarke and his program manager - and that if anyone ever felt like designing a proper record breaker, Comanche's records would fall immediately. In other words, unlike ALL the open records, the only reason Comanche has been successful is because there's no other old guy who wants to buy monohull records.

 

I don't know it's bashing or hating to say that we are unimpressed with the boat.  Having followed the program in great detail, including crawling all over the very well-built and managed beast, it's just not impressive outside of being a big, powerful tool.  And literally every designer I have spoken to about it feels roughly the same.  And  of course the French and Brit solo guys call it "The Lorry"

 

 

 

pretty cool to see an obsolete boat walk all over WOXI leaving the sydney heads !

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