stickboy

Easy Rules Question

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Somebody already knows this one but I don't.

3 boats on a slow broad reach, Windward, Middle (me), Leeward.

Windward and Leeward already have an overlap, I'm not positive how it occured but it's apparent Leeward is not taking Windward up. There is about 3 boat WIDTHS between them.

I come up from behind and split them. Since I gained my overlap with Windward from clear astern with two boat lengths blah blah blah, I can't take him up. BUT Leeward most certainly can take me up. I have to assume that at this point Windward has to come up for me cause, well, I have nowhere else to go.

So, can you verify that Windward has to come up for me and, is it true that the entire relationship between Windward and Leeward changed the moment I gained an overlap with both?

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No.

Their relationship remains the same. If leeward takes you up, and that forces windward up, it is only ok if leeward could have taken windward up in your absence.

But as long as you keep clear of leeward you do not break a rule regardless of their relationship. 

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Leeward still has R-O-W over you, including the archaic but still-operational "Luffing Rights," but cannot force you into an obstruction. Since you cannot take Windward up, she is an obstruction to you. Leeward must give you room to keep clear of her.

Lesson- if there's any way around, don't go in between two boats. It's a death trap!

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Leeward still has R-O-W over you, including the archaic but still-operational "Luffing Rights," but cannot force you into an obstruction. Since you cannot take Windward up, she is an obstruction to you. Leeward must give you room to keep clear of her.

Lesson- if there's any way around, don't go in between two boats. It's a death trap!

FB- Doug

no you can take windward up if leeward takes you up, because your proper course includes keeping clear of leeward (while you consider R17 wrt to W)

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49 minutes ago, forgetaboutit said:

Neither of the above answers are correct. If you want an answer from a judge, post your question on racingrulesofsailing.org.

Fuck off mate, what's wrong with my answer?

Will write it out with rules and definitions when I get on a laptop if that will make you happy? Currently it is phrased in colloquial language, similarly to the question.

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57 minutes ago, forgetaboutit said:

Neither of the above answers are correct. If you want an answer from a judge, post your question on racingrulesofsailing.org.

Considering that a bunch of people here are judges, that seems both incorrect and needlessly harsh. Or do you get paid to promote that web site?

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, forgetaboutit said:

Neither of the above answers are correct. If you want an answer from a judge, post your question on racingrulesofsailing.org.

Buy a fucking ad, asshole.

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27 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

 

1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Leeward still has R-O-W over you, including the archaic but still-operational "Luffing Rights," but cannot force you into an obstruction. Since you cannot take Windward up, she is an obstruction to you. Leeward must give you room to keep clear of her.

Lesson- if there's any way around, don't go in between two boats. It's a death trap!

FB- Doug

no you can take windward up if leeward takes you up, because your proper course includes keeping clear of leeward (while you consider R17 wrt to W)

 

this is how I understand it too. 17 applies to M and W. M is restricted to not sailing above her proper course, although this doesn't relieve W of her rule 11 responsibilities to keep clear of a leeward boat. However, 17 does not apply to M and L but 11 does, with M required to keep clear of L, who is not restricted by proper course under 17. Therefore, if L changes course, L is obligated to give M room to keep clear of L under 16.1, which changes M's proper course. M must give W room to keep clear under 16.1, but W, under 11, still needs to keep clear of both leeward boats. It's not clear how L established overlap on W, but it's irrelevant to what actions L can take on M, as long as L doesn't break 16.1.

 

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3 minutes ago, ryley said:
49 minutes ago, JohnMB said:
2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Leeward still has R-O-W over you, including the archaic but still-operational "Luffing Rights," but cannot force you into an obstruction. Since you cannot take Windward up, she is an obstruction to you. Leeward must give you room to keep clear of her.    ...   ...   ...

 

no you can take windward up if leeward takes you up, because your proper course includes keeping clear of leeward (while you consider R17 wrt to W)

this is how I understand it too. 17 applies to M and W. M is restricted to not sailing above her proper course, although this doesn't relieve W of her rule 11 responsibilities to keep clear of a leeward boat. However, 17 does not apply to M and L but 11 does, with M required to keep clear of L, who is not restricted by proper course under 17. Therefore, if L changes course, L is obligated to give M room to keep clear of L under 16.1, which changes M's proper course. M must give W room to keep clear under 16.1, but W, under 11, still needs to keep clear of both leeward boats. It's not clear how L established overlap on W, but it's irrelevant to what actions L can take on M, as long as L doesn't break 16.1.

 

Hmmm. On second thought I think you're right. L can head up M so long as she allows room to keep clear (R16.1), the problem comes in the delay caused by needing W to respond also.

Thanks

FB- Doug

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Why would you want to put yourself between two boats? You apparently have a faster boat and now you are trapped.

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3 minutes ago, allene222 said:

Why would you want to put yourself between two boats? You apparently have a faster boat and now you are trapped.

normally you wouldn't, unless maybe the distance to sail around them all is too much and risks getting taken to the moon which just benefits the boats that aren't playing that game. I've done it with a faster, asym boat where we were able to thread the needle between a sym (L) and slower Asym boat (W) in order to have to keep from putting a lot of extra distance into the pass. risky for sure, but it can work. But I totally agree - most of the time you find yourself there because of poor planning

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Leeward still has R-O-W over you, including the archaic but still-operational "Luffing Rights," but cannot force you into an obstruction. Since you cannot take Windward up, she is an obstruction to you. Leeward must give you room to keep clear of her.

Lesson- if there's any way around, don't go in between two boats. It's a death trap!

FB- Doug

W is not an obstruction since neither L nor M are required to keep clear of W.

M is not required to keep clear of W, just obligated not to sail above her proper course.

M's proper course in the absence of W would be to keep clear of L, so M may come up as much as needed to do so and W must keep clear of M and L.

The relationship between W and L did not change - W is still required to keep clear of L. Only potential change is that an overlap between W & L will continue to exist as long as both are overlapped with M, even if they're not overlapped with each other.

I agree it's a bad spot to put yourself in. About the only reason to go for it would be if you could roll underneath W fairly quickly. Otherwise you're getting gas from W and vulnerable to luffing from L. If you're a lot faster, probably better to just go below both of them, or tack and clear your air.

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45 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

W is not an obstruction since neither L nor M are required to keep clear of W.

M is not required to keep clear of W, just obligated not to sail above her proper course. But M *is* required to stay clear of L regardless of how the overlap occurred. Rule 11.

M's proper course in the absence of W would be to keep clear of L, so M may come up as much as needed to do so and W must keep clear of M and L. 

The relationship between W and L did not change - W is still required to keep clear of L and M. Rule 11. Only potential change is that an overlap between W & L will continue to exist as long as both are overlapped with M, even if they're not overlapped with each other.

I agree it's a bad spot to put yourself in. About the only reason to go for it would be if you could roll underneath W fairly quickly. Otherwise you're getting gas from W and vulnerable to luffing from L. If you're a lot faster, probably better to just go below both of them, or tack and clear your air. Why would you tack to clear your air on a broad reach - did you mean gybe?

couple of notes above but yes that's pretty much what I was thinking.

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2 hours ago, ryley said:

normally you wouldn't, unless maybe the distance to sail around them all is too much and risks getting taken to the moon which just benefits the boats that aren't playing that game. I've done it with a faster, asym boat where we were able to thread the needle between a sym (L) and slower Asym boat (W) in order to have to keep from putting a lot of extra distance into the pass. risky for sure, but it can work. But I totally agree - most of the time you find yourself there because of poor planning

totally there by choice and this scenario os very close to why I chose this route. It worked out very well in the end for me.

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There are 2 rules relevant to W and M that apply INDEPENDENTLY:

1.  W shall keep clear of M (rule 11) and

2.  M shall not sail above her proper course (rule 17 )

Also, M shall keep clear of L (rule 11).

If L comes up and forces M to come up also, M's proper course is to comply with rule 11 anders keep clear of L, if necessary, sailing above what would otherwise have been her proper course. 

Rule 17 limitations on M have no effect on W's obligation to keep clear of M.   If M comes up and W thinks she is sailing above her proper course, W's remedy is to keep clear and protest. 

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7 hours ago, Brass said:

There are 2 rules relevant to W and M that apply INDEPENDENTLY:

1.  W shall keep clear of M (rule 11) and

2.  M shall not sail above her proper course (rule 17 )

Also, M shall keep clear of L (rule 11).

If L comes up and forces M to come up also, M's proper course is to comply with rule 11 anders keep clear of L, if necessary, sailing above what would otherwise have been her proper course. 

Rule 17 limitations on M have no effect on W's obligation to keep clear of M.   If M comes up and W thinks she is sailing above her proper course, W's remedy is to keep clear and protest. 

Thanks Brass, that's how I saw it. I still find it interestning that Leeward, a slightly faster sym spin delayed/stuck in Windwards bad air, benefitted by being able to come up and accelerate out of his situation when I overlapped them both. I never would have gotten under Leeward and Windward would have taken me up where I didn't want to go.

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On ‎2017‎-‎07‎-‎13 at 2:09 PM, allene222 said:

Why would you want to put yourself between two boats? You apparently have a faster boat and now you are trapped.

^

This.

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