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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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oceaneer

Turbo Etchells

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Ok flame away.. 

But in another form I am looking for a good light air PHRF machine. 

And Etchells keep coming up for sale in this are for great prices. 

So can you turbo it? And what would you do?

I am leaning towards a large Assmy, mast head tacked to the bow fitting for light wind reaching. 

(spectra runners when in use) 

And a 145% genoa. 

I know it will mess up my PHRF rating but where I race the first boat to the new wind wins. 

If I could keep the rating 100+ that would be very good. 

 

Ok tell me Im an Idiot now. 

Oceaneer

 

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Why would you turbo an Etchell.

Never plane and are plenty quick in light air anyway is set up right.

I club race an old Etchell as well as racing a newer one in one design.

I just take last years regatta sails and put them on the old boat each year.

Just update all the systems adjust the rig and you go fine.

Turboing is for lazy people.

 

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31 minutes ago, lydia said:

Why would you turbo an Etchell.

Never plane and are plenty quick in light air anyway is set up right.

I club race an old Etchell as well as racing a newer one in one design.

I just take last years regatta sails and put them on the old boat each year.

Just update all the systems adjust the rig and you go fine.

Turboing is for lazy people.

 

very very light wind, and Im lazy.. 

 

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In very, very light air you're not going to exceed hull speed even in a semi-displacement/planning boat. The trick is to get TO hull speed in lighter conditions than a stock E-22

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replace the skeg rudder with a spade

move forstay up to side stay position and add bigger jib

Add jib inhauls

bow fractional zero

Not much point doing any more.

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1 hour ago, sailronin said:

In very, very light air you're not going to exceed hull speed even in a semi-displacement/planning boat. The trick is to get TO hull speed in lighter conditions than a stock E-22

OK then, so what happens once hull speed is reached ?  Change jibs ?  Tuck in a reef ?  Sail around with the main inside out ?

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10 minutes ago, savoir said:

OK then, so what happens once hull speed is reached ?  Change jibs ?  Tuck in a reef ?  Sail around with the main inside out ?

Savior, we have for the most part light light winds.  This is like any other turbo, IT WILL BE OVERPOWERED in a breeze. 

 

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1 hour ago, savoir said:

OK then, so what happens once hull speed is reached ?  Change jibs ?  Tuck in a reef ?  Sail around with the main inside out ?

keep pulling the backstay on!

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2 hours ago, oceaneer said:

Savior, we have for the most part light light winds.  This is like any other turbo, IT WILL BE OVERPOWERED in a breeze. 

 

The problems, as I see it (my experience with Etchells is somewhat limited): The genoa will kill your pointing which is really the Etchells strong suite. The masthead spinnaker will threaten to invert/break the mast any time there is actual power in it. Etchells are not really light-air killers in the first place.

They are gorgeous boats and fun (challenging) to sail.

FB- Doug

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In 1984 one of my customers at horizon sailmakers did the ostar rave in a modified etches. His name was al Fourier and the boat was el torero. He cut the bow off to get it under 30' loa. Did the race in just 30 days. I still have the sailplane for the boat!

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3 hours ago, savoir said:

OK then, so what happens once hull speed is reached ?  Change jibs ?  Tuck in a reef ?  Sail around with the main inside out ?

That is what reefs and smaller jibs are for.

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I can understand the reasoning, i.e. picking up a cheap beater etchells and throwing some more rag on it. But unless you do it right, you will just end up with a lot of broken gear and a boat that you can't sell. And doing it right would be costly enough to make the exercise uneconomical. Would you be better off just getting a beater Melges 24?

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Thirty one years ago, I got to race the season in Central European lakes on the Libera Classe A named Garfield. We won most races that year, including Deutsche Cup. The boat was very similar to a very super turbo charged Etchells. An absolute BLAST to sail!

Garfield started out as a cold moulded 33 footer very similar to a larger Soling or Etchells. Lakes are shallow, so it's custom stainless steel hollow keel filled with lead was not especially deep, but a beautiful foil. The stern had a 3 foot sugar scoop, so the boat was 11m,  but the waterline was about 8m. Not a planing hull!

The rig was from a two tonner Admiral's Cup boat: i Punkt IIRC. 20m mast, originally fractional but we flew a masthead #1 that went from the tip of the bow and sheeted to the corners of the transom. The #2 was fractional. The main had roach like a 5o5, boom was just above the deck, and sheeted to the top of the transom.

Downwind, the masthead symmetrical chutes were on very long poles. The foot of the sails would skim across the water when the sails were full and drawing.

Upwind, we were blazing fast, quite a bit (2 knots?) faster and pointing higher than a double trap Tornado. That is VERY fast. 14 knots in 12-18 knots of breeze. Fast and fun!

Reaching, we were much slower than a planing hull, but still very fast as the course got deeper. Note that multihulls don't plane.

One day, I started to climb the mast when the boat was on a mooring. When I got about 6 feet off the deck, the boat slowly rolled onto its side. The keel basically was just enough to balance that huge rig with no sails up.

To have the righting moment, the boat had 2m racks on each side of the narrow 2m beam hull. Everyone but the helmsman were on trapeze. 8 of the 10 person crew were on the German Olympic Star team. The other two of us were windsurfers so we each weighed about 130 lbs, so we did the trimming while the other 800 kilos were on the wires or at least hiking off the racks.

When the wind was over about 10 knots, we would make a pyramid off those racks. The two light guys standing on the shoulders of three 100kg 2m men, standing on the shoulders of four 100kg 2m men standing on racks 2m from the deck edge of a 2m wide boat. Add in the 100kg skipper on that same rack, and you've got some serious righting moment.

in other words: go for it!

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4 hours ago, lydia said:

A properly set up Etchell is overpowered in 8 knots.

Dunno where you sail Etchells, but in Eastern Long Island Sound, 10-15 is just right!  Above that, I need help with the guy when trimming the kite downwind, same with the Atlantics.

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Stop trying to fix what's already been figured out. The etchells was designed for Long Island Sound which is a sub 8-kts venue. Don't change it. Your PHRF rating will take a massive hit, you won't be able to buy cheap cheap secondhand sails, and you'll probably break your mast. 

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9 hours ago, lydia said:

A properly set up Etchell is overpowered in 8 knots.

If this is the case why do people say that they are not light wind machines? 

Something is odd here..

It looks like over 15 they are overpowered. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Rawhide said:

replace the skeg rudder with a spade

move forstay up to side stay position and add bigger jib

Add jib inhauls

bow fractional zero

Not much point doing any more.

Not much point doing any more.

There, fixed it for you.

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Hmmm. Seems like the spin setup has been done before on an etchells mast 

 

Etchells mast big spin.jpg

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14 hours ago, oceaneer said:

If this is the case why do people say that they are not light wind machines? 

Something is odd here..

It looks like over 15 they are overpowered. 

 

 

They have not sailed an Etchell maybe, not a well set up one anyway.

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Carcrash is right, if your Etchells doesn't look like this when you have finished turbo'ing it, 

Then EPIC FAIL...

 

 

Libera class.jpg

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Etchells don't really reach well anyway so putting a big masthead asym won't add that much speed.  They go up and down really well and they don't like to turn with their little skeg hung rudder.  Get a Soling if you like that kind of open daysailer/racer.  Probably even cheaper than an E22.

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Hugh Treharne has turboed a Soling, which he does the twilights here on Pittwater sometimes. Cut away the deck, large roach main, etc.

Hard to say he doesn't know what he's doing, goes like a freight train!!

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On 7/16/2017 at 3:54 PM, Bird said:

Etchells don't really reach well anyway so putting a big masthead asym won't add that much speed.  They go up and down really well and they don't like to turn with their little skeg hung rudder.  Get a Soling if you like that kind of open daysailer/racer.  Probably even cheaper than an E22.

Ok you have me confused here.. 

Asmy kites are for reaching.. so how would this not help a Etchells reach?

 

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3 hours ago, oceaneer said:

Ok you have me confused here.. 

Asmy kites are for reaching.. so how would this not help a Etchells reach?

 

Etchells are limited by hull speed. An A sail will only make it lean over more and suck up a bigger bow wave unless there is a big swell around.

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Asso's don't "help" most displacement boats reach, other than being easier to set and trim. they have a hull speed, and unless you can pop out and plane or surf you don't exceed it, you just go sideways.

you can surf an etchells down waves but you need at least 15 knots and a decent swell, at which point you would have long since gotten rid of the masthead asso, intentionally or otherwise.

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Ok its done, I have put a down payment on a Etchells 

Now for mods, 

I think that the rudder needs to be changed to make any turbo rig work. 

Flame away. 

Oceaneer

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no....  don't get an etchells

get a soling

didn't you see the pictures above

you could probably do a turbo rig for a soling and still be able to revert easily to one design compliant, as it has a deck stepped rig.

the soling with the rack and traps is inspired,  and it already has a rudder that works.

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Have to agree on the comments about Etchells rudder probably too small for a serious turbo'd ride.

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Congrats

Now you could do an r2ak :D

2etcheĺl have completed the full course  both well sailed. One other etcheĺl DNS.

 

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On 7/19/2017 at 4:54 PM, Wandering Geo said:

Wimps,

Not an etchell, but a few ideas Hughie_on_Gwen.thumb.jpg.a186c7e2ae3ace0921a1bfba86965876.jpgHughie_s_Soling.jpg.5b9e3d32cac4cb7a1541b8989289934e.jpgStart_plus_3.thumb.jpg.73d0d257f3ca447db8822d0b390e71fc.jpg

That's Hugh Treharn's Soling in the Woody Pts.

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On 25/07/2017 at 1:02 AM, Fleetwood said:

That's Hugh Treharn's Soling in the Woody Pts.

Whats that mast off of? It looks huge!

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Ok so we have a kite for the boat from a M24.

Now we need a genoa,  dont think that will be to hard to find. 

But the rudder modification, this one has me thinking. 

The current rudder post is angled forward at the bottom, to allow it to interface with the skeg. I am not sure if I will be able to add some to the bottom of the current rudder, or just start over. 

It would be nice to be able to allow the boat to revert back to OD with out to much trouble..

Thoughts?

 

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Its an old etchells, its never going back to OD. Cut the skeg off and do a proper rudder.

You may have to build a a new custom genoa, with such a wide shroud base unless it is designed to fit, you will never go upwind properly.

Good luck with the project, sounds fun!

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8 hours ago, Fleetwood said:

Will need a paint job too.....

 

or at least a good clean, its been sitting for 4 years. 

 

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And what are your plans for when the local PHRF assigns you a rating that would be impossible to win with?

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5 hours ago, oceaneer said:

or at least a good clean, its been sitting for 4 years. 

 

Our fleet got one donated a year or two ago, a 500 series boat.  It was in the donors driveway, in shrink wrap, for around 13 years, IIRC?  Cleaned up pretty well, with a good powerwashing.  Had a guy in Marblehead also offer us a FREE Etchells, but was not really competitive with some deck core being soft, so nobody wanted it.  Anyone in New England wants an Etchells for free, PM me, and I will find out if it's still available.

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On 25/07/2017 at 6:02 PM, Fleetwood said:

That's Hugh Treharn's Soling in the Woody Pts.

I was talking to Hugh some years ago about his Soling, he was playing with a canting keel on the boat. He must have done something to the RM to handle that main.

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The San Diego Soling fleet allowed the use of a trapeze back in the '70s. It seemed like a great way to get more people in the fleet and lighter crews to be competitive.  Of course racing out of town required a regular set up and even town, the heavy guys just put a heavy guy on the wire and were still faster.

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3 hours ago, charisma94 said:

I was talking to Hugh some years ago about his Soling, he was playing with a canting keel on the boat. He must have done something to the RM to handle that main.

Don't know, it goes past so quick......

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12 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 Had a guy in Marblehead also offer us a FREE Etchells, but was not really competitive with some deck core being soft, so nobody wanted it.  Anyone in New England wants an Etchells for free, PM me, and I will find out if it's still available.

The Mighty Decrepit!  I gave it to a kid who helps me step spars in the spring and runs the gas dock in the summer.  He's having all kinds of fun with it.  I miss her, but Mrs Nettles is enthralled by the decidedly low tech of the catboat.

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1 hour ago, Nettles said:

The Mighty Decrepit!  I gave it to a kid who helps me step spars in the spring and runs the gas dock in the summer.  He's having all kinds of fun with it.  I miss her, but Mrs Nettles is enthralled by the decidedly low tech of the catboat.

Glad to hear your Etchells found a good home!  And there is nothing wrong with Catboats.  Mom had a Nonsuch 30 in charter our of Nanny Key, Tortola.  We could usually beat most 35 +/- foot sloops (same waterline) at any point of sail down there.....

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So the turbo has started... Lessons so far

1) Masthead kites are fun

2) Steerage is optional

3) We need a bigger jib

4) Damm, there is a lot of string on this boat

We have named the boat Squidzilla. 

Oceaneer

 

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Ironic, by spending more money with a budget basement sailmaker for a laminate sail just to look cool you cold have probably gotten a north Dacron sail with a much better shape for the same amount of money. 

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19 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Ironic, by spending more money with a budget basement sailmaker for a laminate sail just to look cool you cold have probably gotten a north Dacron sail with a much better shape for the same amount of money. 

doubt it... and we have made some shape changes. But have a great day. 

 

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An Italian madman called Vasco Donini converted both an Etchellls and a Soling to race IOR.  This was in the late 70s.  One of them rated half ton, and one was a three quarter - I can't remember which. 

Seriously deranged - imagine doing a 120 mile offshore in a Mediterranean blow in either of them.  But they did pretty well.

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25 minutes ago, swangtang said:

lets see em up in the air flying!

Have you decided anything for the a kite?

Lol...

Yes we have 2 Melges 24 kites, one reacher and a runner... 

The boat is really fun with the kite up, not so manoeuvrable, and we have had some very exciting round ups, but hey this is supposed to be fun right??

 

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Just now, oceaneer said:

Lol...

Yes we have 2 Melges 24 kites, one reacher and a runner... They are mast head and tacked to the very tip of the bow. when flying you cannot see anyting to leward. 

 

The boat is really fun with the kite up, not so manoeuvrable, and we have had some very exciting round ups, but hey this is supposed to be fun right??

 

 

 

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Maybe you're rounding up because the rudder wasn't designed for the loads imparted by the turbo Hackjob you did.

 

Next thing you're going to tell us is that you heel a lot more going upwind with the big Genoa and the stock keel. 

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What's with the hate? He's having fun and experimenting, when he break's something your not paying for it. Is it a good idea no not really, but again HE is having fun.

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3 hours ago, oceaneer said:

Lol...

Yes we have 2 Melges 24 kites, one reacher and a runner... 

The boat is really fun with the kite up, not so manoeuvrable, and we have had some very exciting round ups, but hey this is supposed to be fun right??

 

Sounds sweet would love to see some videos when you get a chance. 

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Turbo rig sounds like fun to me.  Agree with O40, why the trash talking? The guy is not spending your money.

My best friend many years ago put a Star rig on a Fireball hull, of course it exploded but it was fun while it lasted.

 

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8 hours ago, jackolantern said:

Maybe you're rounding up because the rudder wasn't designed for the loads imparted by the turbo Hackjob you did.

 

Next thing you're going to tell us is that you heel a lot more going upwind with the big Genoa and the stock keel. 

Wow.. who pissed in your corn flakes? I hope your day got better from here. 

 

Of course its going to heel more, it has more sail area.. But I dont get why you are so down on this, it was an old etchells, pretty end of life, it was never going to race one design again.  And it was pretty boring to sail in stock configuration in the light winds we have. So whats the problem?? 

Anyway at least have a great night...

Oceaneer

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47 minutes ago, pudge said:

I just threw up. 

Why?  Owner stated: "it was an old etchells, pretty end of life, it was never going to race one design again.  And it was pretty boring to sail in stock configuration in the light winds we have."

Would you have preferred they sawzall it up and dust binned it, for scrap value of the metal?

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So I notice from club racing results that your Turbo Etchels rates level with the O30 in your club. That's going to be a challenge. That said, the O30 doesn't appear to be properly rated, unless they are  NFS or something.

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27 minutes ago, pudge said:

That's an excuse to mod it out beyond repair? I. For one. Would gladly take that and race the shit out of it sans turbo rig, traps and whatever else. There is beauty in appreciating history. 

then you should buy one and do it.. lots for sale for cheap. Go for it!

 

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32 minutes ago, Nice! said:

So I notice from club racing results that your Turbo Etchels rates level with the O30 in your club. That's going to be a challenge. That said, the O30 doesn't appear to be properly rated, unless they are  NFS or something.

Yes rated NFS, and the O30 is a great boat. Also, the owner is great. 

We are deep into figuring out what the Etchells likes and does not like. 

Our first 2 races were stock configuration with 0 wind, painful. The small jib was hopeless as the fleet sailed away. Also the old main really did not help. 

Last one we sailed was great, more wind, lots of shifts. We made one really stupid tactical call and got stuck in the current. But after that one I am more hopeful. 

Reaching with the big masthead assmy is just too much fun. 

We will see what the other new sails do next week.. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, RKoch said:

Turbo Etchells sounds kind of lame compared to a foiling Star.

 

IMG_0016.JPG

yup... wow I am not worthy.. 

 

 

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On 11/24/2017 at 4:17 PM, Skaf said:

You should put some foils on it. 

LipstickOnPig.jpg

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15 hours ago, Ross said:

We're gonna need so many more pictures after a tease like that!

It appeared on my FB feed from Butch Dalrymple-Smith. Only the one pic...not sure if it's a joke or real.

edit: apparently real, and he's building it. Another pic:

 

IMG_0019.JPG

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We put an Etchells rig in a 1981 Quarter-Tonner and added a full-size (420sqft) A-sail for light air running and reaching in Hong Kong. Great fun, and performed much better than the usual Etchells VMG kite. The A-sail sets off a 3ft piece of scaffolding U-bolted to the foredeck. We put a new sheave in the front of the mast for the halyard, about 2ft below the masthead - reckoned the mast might break when reaching if we put the halyard all the way at the top. The boat weighs about the same as an Etchells. 

#28517 (3).jpg

#28520 (3).jpg

#28521 (3).jpg

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6 hours ago, wanchaibelle said:

We put an Etchells rig in a 1981 Quarter-Tonner and added a full-size (420sqft) A-sail for light air running and reaching in Hong Kong. Great fun, and performed much better than the usual Etchells VMG kite. The A-sail sets off a 3ft piece of scaffolding U-bolted to the foredeck. We put a new sheave in the front of the mast for the halyard, about 2ft below the masthead - reckoned the mast might break when reaching if we put the halyard all the way at the top. The boat weighs about the same as an Etchells. 

#28517 (3).jpg

#28520 (3).jpg

#28521 (3).jpg

wow thats is pretty... 

Great job. 

for upwind, do you use the stock etchells jib,,, or??

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46 minutes ago, oceaneer said:

wow thats is pretty... 

Great job. 

for upwind, do you use the stock etchells jib,,, or??

No. We use the original Etchells jib as our heavy jib. Because the mast bury is about 3ft more on the Quarter Tonner, we had to splice on 3ft to the bottom of the mast (just used another broken Etchells mast as section AND splice) so we made a new jib about 3ft longer on the luff.

 

IMG_1043.jpg

IMG_5803.jpg

Edited by wanchaibelle

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The Soverel 27 owner, that  I crew on was talking about using an Etchells mast, for more bendy and controllable rig than the stock mast, for better shaping the mainsail. He said the measurements were quite close. Instead we got an Assym kite off of a ????, and when we tried it, tacked in front of the headstay, and behind the pulpit, it was really fast in light air, and tight angles, so that is the plan for next season.  Soverel 27 is nearly the exact same weight as the Etchells..

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15 hours ago, billy backstay said:

The Soverel 27 owner, that  I crew on was talking about using an Etchells mast, for more bendy and controllable rig than the stock mast, for better shaping the mainsail.

Nope, Etchells main for delivery sails.

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2 minutes ago, Rumor & Gossip said:

Nope, Etchells main for delivery sails.

Are you sure? I guess I mis-remembered!   Hate it when that happens!

 

EDIT:  Actually, I think I dreamed that!!

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