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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
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TMSAIL

Oh Shit another collusion story

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http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446

Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. 

A Ukrainian-American operative who was consulting for the Democratic National Committee met with top officials in the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington in an effort to expose ties between Trump, top campaign aide Paul Manafort and Russia, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation. 

The Ukrainian efforts had an impact in the race, helping to force Manafort’s resignation and advancing the narrative that Trump’s campaign was deeply connected to Ukraine’s foe to the east, Russia. But they were far less concerted or centrally directed than Russia’s alleged hacking and dissemination of Democratic emails.

 

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If Mrs. Clinton or any members of her campaign committed crimes, by all mean hold them accountable. Same goes for Trump. Sanders, Cruz et al.

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Firstly, no involvement by Hillary's campaign, therefore, NO COLLUSION. Thread title is therefore misleading. Please try to keep up, TMSAIL. I really do want to expect more of you. 

Private citizens are allowed to investigate malfeasance by political operatives of either party, including receiving information upon request from foreign governments. It is when damaging information is used in the same meeting as a discussion of economic sanctions, suggesting a quid pro quo agreement between foreign agents and a campaign director and two senior members of a presidential campaign that the charge of collusion can and should be made. Putin has identified the Magnitsky Sanctions as his most detested remnant of the H Clinton/Obama legacy, and this meeting can be understandably interpreted as an effort to weaken those sanctions in return for dirt on Hillary.

The Ukraine is an American ally, FYI. So, you'd have to equate colluding with an ally with collusion with a rival/long time enemy for your thread title to make sense.

TMSAIL: do you want the American experiment to succeed? A higher regard for ethics and the ability to put country before party would help. If you have any questions about how D Trump Jr should have reacted, please see the Democrats response by the Gore team. Sorry, you are just going to have to look to the Democrats for ethics for the time being, until the GOP rediscovers them.

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21 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

Firstly, no involvement by Hillary's campaign, therefore, NO COLLUSION. Thread title is therefore misleading. Please try to keep up, TMSAIL. I really do want to expect more of you. 

Private citizens are allowed to investigate malfeasance by political operatives of either party, including receiving information upon request from foreign governments. It is when damaging information is used in the same meeting as a discussion of economic sanctions, suggesting a quid pro quo agreement between foreign agents and a campaign director and two senior members of a presidential campaign that the charge of collusion can and should be made. Putin has identified the Magnitsky Sanctions as his most detested remnant of the H Clinton/Obama legacy, and this meeting can be understandably interpreted as an effort to weaken those sanctions in return for dirt on Hillary.

The Ukraine is an American ally, FYI. So, you'd have to equate colluding with an ally with collusion with a rival/long time enemy for your thread title to make sense.

TMSAIL: do you want the American experiment to succeed? A higher regard for ethics and the ability to put country before party would help. If you have any questions about how D Trump Jr should have reacted, please see the Democrats response by the Gore team. Sorry, you are just going to have to look to the Democrats for ethics for the time being, until the GOP rediscovers them.

So Aides meeting with a lawyer possibly representing a forgein government  at Trump tower is collusion, but aides meeting at a foreign embassy is not.   Got it.  

"A Ukrainian-American operative who was consulting for the Democratic National Committee met with top officials in the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington in an effort to expose ties between Trump, top campaign aide Paul Manafort and Russia, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation. "

 

Oh  wait it's Ok for the Democratic Party to meet with a Foreign Government doing opposition research, but not Trumps son.  Who last time I checked was and still is a private citizen. 

 

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45 minutes ago, Remodel said:

If Mrs. Clinton or any members of her campaign committed crimes, by all mean hold them accountable. Same goes for Trump. Sanders, Cruz et al.

Yep.  That was my point.   

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22 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

So Aides meeting with a lawyer possibly representing a forgein government  at Trump tower is collusion, but aides meeting at a foreign embassy is not.   Got it.  

"A Ukrainian-American operative who was consulting for the Democratic National Committee met with top officials in the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington in an effort to expose ties between Trump, top campaign aide Paul Manafort and Russia, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation. "

 

Oh  wait it's Ok for the Democratic Party to meet with a Foreign Government doing opposition research, but not Trumps son.  Who last time I checked was and still is a private citizen. 

 

Paul Manafort: ex campaign director. Kushner: administration member without portfolio. D Trump Jr: quasi-ethical manager of family business while dad's busy playing head of state. The political operative who was working with the DNC? No member of the campaign. Ukraine? Still an "ally" which I suggest you look up, since it's changed meaning since Drumpf has taken over. 

You've threaded this needle almost really well. But isn't it exhausting having to defends these numbskulls and "it's not treason if it's profitable" types? What are you getting out of it? Certainly not better healthcare insurance, not a stronger economy, not a better reputation of America in the world. Are you getting paid to type against America's best interests, or are you so deluded as to think Trump is good for America? He has ZERO interest in Making America Great Again, unless he makes money in the deal. This is about wrecking the government, throwing millions off the public dole without regard for social stability and the ability of nepotism to secure his children's place with the uber takers of the world. You and I & our fellow citizens are nowhere in his priorities. 

I'd love to have a conversation about replacing welfare with the promise of a living wage and equality through education, infrastructure improvements and guaranteed affordable healthcare which doesn't bankrupt the nation or the individual. Lots of businessmen could make a profit in that nation, certainly more than is promised by the oligarchs currently in office. Any reasonable person would see that that is where America needs to go before our wage gape creates social unrest, an epidemic creates panic and social upheaval, or our finances are driven by dialysis. Staving off that day with partisan bickering, kicking the can down the road while the Trumps and DeVos' rob us blind is a foolish gift of time & money to those who deserve it the least and prove it with every changing explanation.

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2 hours ago, TMSAIL said:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446

Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. 

A Ukrainian-American operative who was consulting for the Democratic National Committee met with top officials in the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington in an effort to expose ties between Trump, top campaign aide Paul Manafort and Russia, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation. 

The Ukrainian efforts had an impact in the race, helping to force Manafort’s resignation and advancing the narrative that Trump’s campaign was deeply connected to Ukraine’s foe to the east, Russia. But they were far less concerted or centrally directed than Russia’s alleged hacking and dissemination of Democratic emails.

 

NEWSFLASH: An action taken by a foreign government independent of a Campaign isn't "collusion".

It's only Collusion when the campaign works with the foreign power or takes benefit directly from it, e.g. given cash, private information, etc.

 

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45 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

NEWSFLASH: An action taken by a foreign government independent of a Campaign isn't "collusion".

It's only Collusion when the campaign works with the foreign power or takes benefit directly from it, e.g. given cash, private information, etc.

 

So we can ignore the email to Trump Jr. where the Russians talk about their aiding Trump?

I see because the Hillary campaign was smart enough to use a DNC consultant to do opposition research with a foreign government it's all A-Ok.  

Love the hypocracy. 

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There is an undercurrent of hatred for a truly democratic, egalitarian America. A wily troll understands intelligent conversation enough to skew and distort. He wants to wreak as much havoc as he can within rational debates and replace it with personal invective and other inefficient use of time. 

He straddles this line between purely instigatory and friendly, but wounded, fellow citizen. Perhaps comrade is more appropriate, tho, since trolls such as this do not show patriotism as I recognize it. It's all "party before country." 

The Donald still enjoys the ardent support of the deplorables, who love him for beating Hillary and making America white Again.

His power comes from the billionaires and their henchmen, who hope the "nanny state" is dismantled in time before his impeachment so that the rich can further subjugate the common folk 

And let's not forget Trump's most loyal supporters, the Russian mafia and oligarchs. Where would he be without them? They hope and pray for the end of sanctions from their golden shower boy.

Ahem. TMSAIL would scold me and my cynicism. The Russian mobsters/oligarchs just hope to one day they will be able to find American families to adopt poor orphaned Russian children. 

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5 hours ago, phillysailor said:

Firstly, no involvement by Hillary's campaign, therefore, NO COLLUSION. Thread title is therefore misleading. Please try to keep up, TMSAIL. I really do want to expect more of you. 

You haven't been paying attention then. :roll eyes: 

On a less targeted note, this is all the supporters of team red have left. Deflection, distraction, and misrepresentation. That's how little they've got to work with. Even GWB had good points to riff off... but the best you can do with Trump is not talk about him.

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3 hours ago, TMSAIL said:

So we can ignore the email to Trump Jr. where the Russians talk about their aiding Trump?

I see because the Hillary campaign was smart enough to use a DNC consultant to do opposition research with a foreign government it's all A-Ok.  

Love the hypocracy. 

If Jr. hadn't showed up to the meeting, sure.

But he showed up to the meeting, intent on breaking Federal election laws.

 

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6 hours ago, TMSAIL said:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446

Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. 

A Ukrainian-American operative who was consulting for the Democratic National Committee met with top officials in the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington in an effort to expose ties between Trump, top campaign aide Paul Manafort and Russia, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation. 

The Ukrainian efforts had an impact in the race, helping to force Manafort’s resignation and advancing the narrative that Trump’s campaign was deeply connected to Ukraine’s foe to the east, Russia. But they were far less concerted or centrally directed than Russia’s alleged hacking and dissemination of Democratic emails.

 

 

Wow, that sounds TERRIBLE! Maybe Clinton really really was bad after all.... was it her daughter Chelsea who was meeting with intelligence operative of a hostile foreign power? No, it wasn't Chelsea or any of the top Clinton or DNC bosses, and Ukraine is an ally.

And everybody in the world already knew Donald Trump was totally unfit for the office of President.

So, what happened is that the Ukraine helped expose Manafort's treasonous dealings.... yeah that's deplorable all right. You can totally blame the Democrats for that!

-DSK

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6 hours ago, TMSAIL said:

 

"A Ukrainian-American operative who was consulting for the Democratic National Committee met with top officials in the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington in an effort to expose ties between Trump, top campaign aide Paul Manafort and Russia, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation. "

 

 

 

Which turned out to be the case.  And the effort failed.  Apparently, all you can take from that tragedy is to make a snarky point about your political feelings being hurt.

You, personally, have won.  Mopping up?  Checking the battlefield for the the wounded, just to humiliate them one last time before you dispatch them?  

Maybe its time you move on, and enjoy your victory?  We are the dead.  We know it.

Edit: Humping the dead?  You're better than this.

 

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16 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

If Jr. hadn't showed up to the meeting, sure.

But he showed up to the meeting, intent on breaking Federal election laws.

 

Which election laws? 

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4 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

Which election laws? 

"But legal experts of both political parties say his explanations may not fly if he’s questioned under oath by Congress or Robert Mueller, the special counsel investigating potential Trump campaign collusion with Russia — and where perjury and making false statements carry legal consequences that don’t exist when engaging with reporters or on social media.

“I don't think that is an out,” said Robert Bauer, a former White House counsel under President Barack Obama and the Democrat’s 2008 campaign attorney. “If they accept the meeting on the understanding that they will be offered something of value — the opposition research — they are sending a clear signal that they would like to have it.”

Bauer added that accepting a meeting where there’s an understanding of purpose “raises a question under the federal campaign finance law” for which Trump Jr. could be held accountable."

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/10/donald-trump-jr-russia-meeting-legal-danger-240370

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Good catch TM! Once this gets out, Hillary will probably lose the election.

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