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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
ptm

What boat? Target budget of $500K, family of 6.

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Hi all - 

Brand new to the forum and looking for ideas to help solve a puzzle. My wife and I have 4 young kids (age 3 to 11), and after five years without a boat, are looking to buy. We'd like our kids to grow up sailing and adventuring instead of just watching iPads. Here are the considerations:

  1. Location: NC coast. Probably keep it on the Pamlico sound or Southport area. Draft of no more than ~6 feet.
  2. Primary Use: Weekend cruising, some longer trips along the coast.
  3. Longer Term Use: Eventually would like to sail offshore to Bermuda. Maybe a bit of casual racing. Maybe Europe one day?
  4. Ease of Sailing: Need to be able to single-hand. Need furling sails and a bow thruster. Can't be too big (certainly < 50 feet).
  5. Character of Sailing: Must be a great sailing boat. Fun, feel and balance matter. 
  6. Sleeping Accommodation: Needs to sleep 6 in cabins (four are kids). Three+ double cabin layout with 2 heads probably ideal.
  7. Other Accomodation: Would be nice if interior and cockpit tables both seated 6.
  8. Previsous experience: Owned and single-handed a Sabre Spirit.
  9. Budget: I'd like to spend less than $500K. Could go somewhat higher (<$650K) for the exact right boat.
  10. Other: Design, quality of materials and construction, and safety matter. Looking for ideas other than the obvious Beneteaus-type production boats. Would prefer something lower-maintenance. Air conditioning would be very nice.

The closest I have come to a solution is an X4.3 from X-Yachts. It looks to be pretty well suited for my needs, other than size of cockpit table. Also not sure about overall quality. Never sailed a cat - worried it woudn't be fun.

I'd be grateful for any other ideas or wisdom. Cheers!

 

 

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I went with the Catalina 42' for some of the reasons you mentioned and saved the other $400,000. I don't have a bow thruster. Heat, a/c, vacuuflush heads...

Spacious as you can get in that size range

Bermuda yes-Europe not so sure

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I would suggest: Little Harbor 50.  Here is one on Yachtworld:

  1. Location: NC coast. (Boat Located East Coast US)  Probably keep it on the Pamlico sound or Southport area. Draft of no more than ~6 feet.(Draft 5.5' Board Up)
  2. Primary Use: Weekend cruising, some longer trips along the coast.(Yes)
  3. Longer Term Use: Eventually would like to sail offshore to Bermuda. Maybe a bit of casual racing. Maybe Europe one day? (Yes)
  4. Ease of Sailing: Need to be able to single-hand. Need furling sails and a bow thruster. Can't be too big (certainly < 50 feet). (furling boom and jib) (Bow thruster installed)
  5. Character of Sailing: Must be a great sailing boat. Fun, feel and balance matter. (Ted Hood designed good sailing boats)
  6. Sleeping Accommodation: Needs to sleep 6 in cabins (four are kids). Three+ double cabin layout with 2 heads probably ideal. (Three cabins / two heads)
  7. Other Accomodation: Would be nice if interior and cockpit tables both seated 6. (Tables seat six)
  8. Previsous experience: Owned and single-handed a Sabre Spirit.
  9. Budget: I'd like to spend less than $500K. Could go somewhat higher (<$650K) for the exact right boat.(Asking $385K - will sell for less)
  10. Other: Design, quality of materials and construction, and safety matter. Looking for ideas other than the obvious Beneteaus-type production boats. Would prefer something lower-maintenance. Air conditioning would be very nice. (Great design, quality build, AC is installed)

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/Little-Harbor-50-CB-Sloop-3009719/Portsmouth/RI/United-States#.WWk3kYjyuUk

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2853

All Little Harbor 50's were semi-custom built so there is variation between all boats.  Asking prices range between 350K - and 500K. The boat meets all your requirements except perhaps the "lower maintenance" preference. Most have lots of systems, hardware, AC, water-makers, teak trim and decks, batteries, electronics, etc. etc. etc.

 

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1 hour ago, Tom Scott said:

I would suggest: Little Harbor 50.  Here is one on Yachtworld:

  1. Location: NC coast. (Boat Located East Coast US)  Probably keep it on the Pamlico sound or Southport area. Draft of no more than ~6 feet.(Draft 5.5' Board Up)
  2. Primary Use: Weekend cruising, some longer trips along the coast.(Yes)
  3. Longer Term Use: Eventually would like to sail offshore to Bermuda. Maybe a bit of casual racing. Maybe Europe one day? (Yes)
  4. Ease of Sailing: Need to be able to single-hand. Need furling sails and a bow thruster. Can't be too big (certainly < 50 feet). (furling boom and jib) (Bow thruster installed)
  5. Character of Sailing: Must be a great sailing boat. Fun, feel and balance matter. (Ted Hood designed good sailing boats)
  6. Sleeping Accommodation: Needs to sleep 6 in cabins (four are kids). Three+ double cabin layout with 2 heads probably ideal. (Three cabins / two heads)
  7. Other Accomodation: Would be nice if interior and cockpit tables both seated 6. (Tables seat six)
  8. Previsous experience: Owned and single-handed a Sabre Spirit.
  9. Budget: I'd like to spend less than $500K. Could go somewhat higher (<$650K) for the exact right boat.(Asking $385K - will sell for less)
  10. Other: Design, quality of materials and construction, and safety matter. Looking for ideas other than the obvious Beneteaus-type production boats. Would prefer something lower-maintenance. Air conditioning would be very nice. (Great design, quality build, AC is installed)

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/Little-Harbor-50-CB-Sloop-3009719/Portsmouth/RI/United-States#.WWk3kYjyuUk

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2853

All Little Harbor 50's were semi-custom built so there is variation between all boats.  Asking prices range between 350K - and 500K. The boat meets all your requirements except perhaps the "lower maintenance" preference. Most have lots of systems, hardware, AC, water-makers, teak trim and decks, batteries, electronics, etc. etc. etc.

 

Really good suggestion - except that I believe they are only two cabins. For sanity with 6 people, I think it's probably important to have 3... The one listed is "only" $395K, btw. 

Thanks!

 

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1 hour ago, Great Red Shark said:

Outbound 44,  if you can find one ( did they make a shoal-draft variant ? )

Thanks. Only two cabins as far as I can tell.

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10 minutes ago, ptm said:

Really good suggestion - except that I believe they are only two cabins. For sanity with 6 people, I think it's probably important to have 3... The one listed is "only" $395K, btw. 

Thanks!

 

There are two cabins with their own heads and showers - but the big middle of the boat has berths too. You would have three separate sleeping areas.

When I click the link - it says the price is $385K.

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1 minute ago, Tom Scott said:

There are two cabins with their own heads and showers - but the big middle of the boat has berths too. You would have three separate sleeping areas.

When I click the link - it says the price is $385K.

You're right on both counts. Out of curiosity, how much do you think it would cost (being very realistic to conservative) to keep a 1983 boat in great operating order, each year?

 

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24 minutes ago, ptm said:

You're right on both counts. Out of curiosity, how much do you think it would cost (being very realistic to conservative) to keep a 1983 boat in great operating order, each year?

 

..It depends on your use and your level of concern for cosmetics. The fact that it is a "1983" is not a big deal because this boat has been substantially refit in 2016, and it has been kept in the Northeast where it probably spends (maybe) 5 months a year in water.  If you want to keep it in as good of shape as it is now - you may be looking at $5,000 - $9,000 a year in varnish, paint, repairs, maintenance of systems, and replacement bits. To that, you would have occasional big ticket items (..sails can be a big ticket for a 50' boat), and engines can cost big money whether they are new or old - roll the dice. Also, dockage, haul outs, and other recurring costs have to get added in.  You said you had a $500K budget, and this boat is $115K under that budget - which is good because taking care of it, storing it, and using it will cost real money. Big boats cost big money - not just to buy, but to keep. A big factor in the total cost will be determined by how much work you and the family do yourselves, and how much you must use others to do it for you. 

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4 hours ago, ptm said:

Hi all - 

Brand new to the forum and looking for ideas to help solve a puzzle. My wife and I have 4 young kids (age 3 to 11), and after five years without a boat, are looking to buy. We'd like our kids to grow up sailing and adventuring instead of just watching iPads. Here are the considerations:

  1. Location: NC coast. Probably keep it on the Pamlico sound or Southport area. Draft of no more than ~6 feet.
  2. Primary Use: Weekend cruising, some longer trips along the coast.
  3. Longer Term Use: Eventually would like to sail offshore to Bermuda. Maybe a bit of casual racing. Maybe Europe one day?
  4. Ease of Sailing: Need to be able to single-hand. Need furling sails and a bow thruster. Can't be too big (certainly < 50 feet).
  5. Character of Sailing: Must be a great sailing boat. Fun, feel and balance matter. 
  6. Sleeping Accommodation: Needs to sleep 6 in cabins (four are kids). Three+ double cabin layout with 2 heads probably ideal.
  7. Other Accomodation: Would be nice if interior and cockpit tables both seated 6.
  8. Previsous experience: Owned and single-handed a Sabre Spirit.
  9. Budget: I'd like to spend less than $500K. Could go somewhat higher (<$650K) for the exact right boat.
  10. Other: Design, quality of materials and construction, and safety matter. Looking for ideas other than the obvious Beneteaus-type production boats. Would prefer something lower-maintenance. Air conditioning would be very nice.

The closest I have come to a solution is an X4.3 from X-Yachts. It looks to be pretty well suited for my needs, other than size of cockpit table. Also not sure about overall quality. Never sailed a cat - worried it woudn't be fun.

I'd be grateful for any other ideas or wisdom. Cheers!

 

 

If you've got that kind of "Budget," you should pay for professional advice, rather than pick our brains for free. You get what you pay for. 

Cheers,

- Karl M.

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How do you feel about sailing with training wheels on? I would have a sail on a few bridge deck cats that have dagger boards in each hull. Maybe try one of the nicer catanas, or a Grainger if any have made it to your part of the world. 

Cats meet most of your criteria, and the dual engines and dagger boards mostly negate the need for a bow thruster. Lots have an owner's hull and guest hull, so you could have a bit of privacy from the kids. The motion of a cat to windward is an acquired taste 

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28 minutes ago, ptm said:

You're right on both counts. Out of curiosity, how much do you think it would cost (being very realistic to conservative) to keep a 1983 boat in great operating order, each year?

 

Maintenance will be about 1.5 to 2.5% of new replacement cost.  Figure it is a $2 million dollar yacht, so $30 to $50k/year.   If you are handy and have the time you can cut some costs by doing work yourself.

Maybe a newish catamaran?

 

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1 minute ago, Rantifarian said:

How do you feel about sailing with training wheels on? I would have a sail on a few bridge deck cats that have dagger boards in each hull. Maybe try one of the nicer catanas, or a Grainger if any have made it to your part of the world. 

Cats meet most of your criteria, and the dual engines and dagger boards mostly negate the need for a bow thruster. Lots have an owner's hull and guest hull, so you could have a bit of privacy from the kids. The motion of a cat to windward is an acquired taste 

 

1 minute ago, Bryanjb said:

Maintenance will be about 1.5 to 2.5% of new replacement cost.  Figure it is a $2 million dollar yacht, so $30 to $50k/year.   If you are handy and have the time you can cut some costs by doing work yourself.

Maybe a newish catamaran?

 

For typical weekend and coastal cruising, large cats have some serious drawbacks.  I noted the OP wanted a bow thruster. That implies regular marina time?  Big cats are challenging to cruise to marina destinations because many marinas have limited docking options for them (..in most cases)  For cruising the east coast, the ICW is often a frequently chosen path - and running aground in the ICW is a likely occurrence. Here again, big cats can be a real PITA - they may need outside assistance to un-ground more than most mono hulls would.  I think a big cat could be great for the Bahamas, or even ocean passages - but cruising along the eastern seaboard and frequenting marinas, restaurants, and other snug locations would be less fun in a big cat.  Haul outs can be tougher to come by too - you may at least have to travel quite a distance to find a yard capable of hauling a big cat!  Also, big cats don't heel much ...and everybody knows heeling is the bestest!. :D  

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Any cat with a hope of performing well to windward is likely to have dagger boards, which are by far the lowest part of the boat. When they hit the dirt, either the sacrificial bottom snaps off, or you pull them up. If you hit the rudders, you can probably stand up next to the boat and should have slowed down a lot earlier. 

 

Is the berthing thing a problem for visiting boats, or long term? I know some marinas here are a bit short on cat width berths for long term, but they stick anything large in and end tie for an overnight

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Your issue is 6 people.  I dont thinks its possible to cruise a normal size yacht with six people. That is a huge crowd. 

 

people ....safety gear,  food, water and fun stuff take up enourmous space.  

 

Boats need plenty of fun stuff on board ...fun is  the whole reason you are doing it. 

 

how many bikes will you carry ?  Snorks  And dive gear ?  Long range yacht tender ? 

 

You cant go cruising around , chuck out the anchor then just sit around and drink beer. 

you should rethink your priorities ....exactly how the boat will be used .

 

cruise planning...then purchase a boat to accomplish the cruise.

 

i suspect that the reality will be ....... you and your trusty shipmate Stubby will hussle the yacht across oceans  double handed...then the family will fly out and do mini cruises . 

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8 hours ago, Rantifarian said:

Is the berthing thing a problem for visiting boats, or long term? I know some marinas here are a bit short on cat width berths for long term, but they stick anything large in and end tie for an overnight.

The issue I see is that cruising cats are far more common than they were back when the marinas were designed and built - so, for example, end-ties are not always available because someone's already there. Because Marinas have been disappearing in favor of residential condominiums and other such re-developments, the marinas that are still operating have a somewhat increased volume of transient traffic. As such, those desirable end-tie locations that a big cat may need are often already filled by other boats who don't necessarily need "that"  space, but simply need "a" space.  Also, most marinas are "old" simply because the permitting process for dredging, building docks, and undertaking marine construction projects has become so difficult that very few new ones have been built in the past 30 years. These older facilities - in most cases - were not designed with large beamy cats in mind - so getting a big cat into and out of them can be difficult. 

We have a few big cats in my neighborhood. Their owners typically anchor out and use a dinghy to get in to the shore side facilities they want to frequent. That can be an adequate work around for regular use, particularly for a big cat that can often carry a larger dinghy with a larger motor suspended on davits between the widely spaced hulls. But, when you need repairs, have to re-provision, want to tie up briefly for lunch or dinner, or want to leave the boat in a marina long term so you can return home to take care of an emergency or something, the big cat can become difficult to manage. Certainly not impossible - buy decidedly more complicated and difficult. Both for transient and long term berthing, finding a space for a big cat is challenging. The numbers of big cats produced has increased greatly in recent decades, while the available spaces suitable to handle them is not increasing - and - in some areas - actually decreasing. 

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4 hours ago, slug zitski said:

You cant go cruising around , chuck out the anchor then just sit around and drink beer. 

you should rethink your priorities ....exactly how the boat will be used .

 

I may be naive about this, but I hope one of the priorities is the actual sailing itself. With kids in school, and my work - we may get a couple of full week cruises in a year. But, for the most part it will be long weekends or even just sailing for the day and sleeping over night before heading back home. Thus, boats like the X4.3 or Pogo - both focused on the sailing - are likely to be more rewarding. So am I naive about this?

Someday, I'd love a real blue water cruiser when I have the time to use it. Until then, an overly large, overly complex boat isn't going to get properly used. If it's too big and complex, it might not get used very much at all.

SO, the question of balance is: how do I make it nice and accommodating enough that it is appealing to the whole family, but otherwise minimal in size, complexity and systems? I think a furling main, a bow thruster, and anything else that takes the stress and work out of it is highly valuable to me. 

 

4 hours ago, slug zitski said:

i suspect that the reality will be ....... you and your trusty shipmate Stubby will hussle the yacht across oceans  double handed...then the family will fly out and do mini cruises . 

I suspect you're right. If we ever get to that point. First, we'd have to have a whole lot of fun sailing.

>>>>

With regard to a cat - I have considered it. However, other than potentially being fast, I have never heard anyone say they were fun to sail. The perfect boat, to me, is the one where you can feel the boat get powered up, trimmed and balanced. More like carving on skis (or snowboard or surfboard - pick your board) - rewarding in the activity itself. 

So any more ideas or suggestions on the fun to sail side? Thanks!

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"ptm".... You have too many competing requirements that contradict one another.  I think you really need to develop a prioritized list of desires and then be prepared to give up the maximization of some for the inclusion of others.

I arguably provided you with an option that met every desire you had - but when you saw it, it suddenly didn't quite fit your idea.  Now you are saying that you do NOT want an overly large or complicated boat - but, in your first post you said "..can't be too big". You also had a budget that was quite large. Well, it is - in fact - large size and complexity that will drive a price that "large".  You wanted multiple cabins to comfortably accommodate six, which clearly puts you looking at BIG boats, but then you need shoal draft because of where you are located.  All the desired accommodation and features you included as "wanted" would suggest a fairly heavy displacement,  but then you want responsive and nimble performance.  You wanted a boat that could cross oceans, sail to Bermuda, and coastal cruise - but your primary use really seems geared to weekending and over-nighting locally.  Well, you can certainly overnight on boat designed to cross oceans, but it is far tougher to cross oceans on a boat intended to mostly overnight on.  So, now you say you would someday like a blue water crusier, but now a boat that can do it all it is too large and complex to use?  Ok - so I have no idea what to suggest for you now.  :blink:

Are you looking for a weekender/overnighter for six?  If so, there are lots of good choices far cheaper, far smaller, and far more suited to the shallow waters of Pamlico sound - but there will likely be no private cabins for six. Think "camping" without dirt and fewer bugs. There is no "accommodating the whole family", achieving a "minimal size", and staying "uncomplicated" in one boat for you  - especially when privacy, air-conditioning, bow thrusters, furling booms & headsails, shoal draft, are all considered "needed" - while conversely keeping it simple is deemed important too. I suggest that NO boat will meet your stated needs. Instead, your needs will have to be adapted to a given boat ...and only you and your family can decide what you'd really be willing to give-up. 

To help you get started, I would suggest you start looking at boats in the 40' +/- range.  Six people can weekend on a good 40' boat. Will they be comfortable aboard for three weeks? Probably not. A centerboard boat is a traditionally good option for providing shoal draft and good sailing performance.  Few builders produce centerboard boats today, so you may predominantly be looking at older boats. Ideally, you'd want an older boat that has been substantially refit and well cared for so you can start sailing now, rather than start working on it.  The further you and your family can move away from the idea of "living" aboard, toward the notion of "staying" aboard - the more options you will find available. The smallest boat that will meet your needs is the one you will use the most. The thought process needs to be turned upside down  - instead of thinking what's the most and biggest we can buy, try and figure out what is the smallest and least that will meet our basic needs. By doing that, you will expand your options and also be more likely to find a boat that is fun to sail, less complicated to manage, easier to single-hand, and will allow you and your family to spend time out on the water. 

Here is an example that is in my neighborhood.  I know this boat, and it is an awesome example of what it is - which admittedly is not for everybody.  Regardless, this boat is fun to sail, well-built, shallow daft, well under your budget, capable of sailing to Bermuda, and a good weekender for a family of six.  You would have to decide if you and your family could "adjust" to such a vessel (ahem), as it still would not meet all your desires.

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/48490

EDIT: Here is a different listing with more pictures. ;)

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/Migrator-Yachts-Block-Island-40-3088153/Punta-Gorda/FL/United-States#.WWo3y4jyuUk

 

 

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It occurs to me that your wish list is not too different from what is required by the various charter companies in the Caribbean. Mostly, a week or less at time for six. Some blue water capability. If I understand correctly. these boats are delivered from Europe to the Caribbean on their own bottoms. You might check out the ads to see what boats they use. (I'm not recommending that you buy one of their used boats.)

 

42-3_hero.jpg?t=1C20vI&itok=JQf37e3142-3_deck_plan.jpg?t=1C20vK&itok=G-k8yxE

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41 minutes ago, Tom Scott said:

"ptm".... You have too many competing requirements that contradict one another.  I think you really need to develop a prioritized list of desires and then be prepared to give up the maximization of some for the inclusion of others.

In fairness, I did say it was a puzzle. ;)

41 minutes ago, Tom Scott said:

I arguably provided you with an option that met every desire you had - but when you saw it, it suddenly didn't quite fit your idea.  Now you are saying that you do NOT want an overly large or complicated boat - but, in your first post you said "..can't be too big".

Yep - that was a really good suggestion. It does seem like a big complicated and older boat, and a bit daunting at that. The Pogo 12.5 suggested by slug zitski is also a good suggestion, other than it may be tough to single hand, and obviously would sacrifice some comfort. I am also realizing I'd prefer new or newer based on the assumption that it will require less money and time to maintain.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Tom Scott said:

 

To help you get started, I would suggest you start looking at boats in the 40' +/- range.  Six people can weekend on a good 40' boat. Will they be comfortable aboard for three weeks? Probably not.

Yes, my starting point was the X4.3: https://www.x-yachts.com/en/yachts/x/x4-3/

Seems like a really nice boat. Shallow option is 6'1'' draft. Only major downsides are that the cockpit seating and cockpit table are smallish. Oh, and that it costs between $500k and $600K new.

Thanks again. All great suggestions.

Paul

 

 

 

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Again. Catalina 42' 3cabin model. You're not going to do any of what you want for a while and the systems, maintenance and fees add up regardless while the boat depreciates in value.

6 people is a couple and 4 small kids. They will be small for a while and there is more than enough cockpit, deck and cabin space for a tight knit family. I have the 2 cabin model and installed a bunk in the aft cabin. My 2 girls fight over who gets to sleep up there. 

I haven't gotten to cruise extensively yet due to the age of my kids, wife's lack of sailing experience and work schedule. Like you, I have more dream time and money than available time.

Go with a less expensive boat for now that has good resale value and upgrade when the kids are older and you know which ones are going to cruise the oceans with you. 

 

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New or newer?

Less money and time to maintain?!

Forget I said anything, you just have money to burn. 

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Mid 40's Euro cruiser, 3 cabin layout, shoal keel. Buy the boat you need for now, not "well maybe one day we will take it to Europe..." Strong enough for now.

Yes most cats are not fun to sail. Unless the speed is over 10 knots and the spray is blasting.

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I'll be the outlier here and suggest a Catalina 425. It's the successor to the C42. Three double cabins and the other features you're looking for in a tidy package with a long waterline and decent performance.

http://www.catalinayachts.com/ocean-series/catalina-425/

I realize you're not looking for a high volume production boat but I wouldn't rule it out until you see one firsthand. Catalina has upped their game with the XX5 models. Full disclosure: I own a Catalina-Morgan 50, vintage 1993. We lived aboard with a family of 5 and a dog for a year so we wanted/needed four double cabins. It's built way above its contemporaries in the line, perhaps even better than the current XX5 models, and sails very well. 

If the 425 is too small, they've got a 445 and rumor has it they're coming out with a new 50+ footer soon.

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Im sure that the X yacht would be a good boat . Her rig geometry will handle large oceanic reaching sails 

 

the most important piece of equipment on a cruising yacht is its tender ...a 3m rib with a small outboard.

 

how will you handle a tender on the X yacht ?   STern Davits  ?

 

ask x yachts how they solve this problem. 

 

You might also have look at the modern Beneteau line...cant remember the name...they carry huge beam aft...fast off wind ...they have a twin wheel cockpit that is  bimini covered cockpit and enough beam aft to davit a 3m tender. 

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Le_voilier_RM_1270_TAVROS_(2).JPGRM 1270. Less for racing than a Pogo, but not too far removed.

Comes with lifting keel, nice cabin layout and interesting price, within budget.

1270impressionner28,galerieGammeRM,942,i

Edited by Matagi
pics

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1 hour ago, GMiller said:

I like the looks and layout of the Hanse 455.  No idea how it sails.  Yachtworld has a shoal draft version for sale in Texas.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2016/Hanse-455-3073472/Kemah/TX/United-States#.WWp0WU1TFaQ

I guess we should have asked the OP about his sense of "aesthetics". To me, that Hanse 455 is just about the ugliest excuse for a sail boat that I could even imagine - and yet obviously people like the looks of them, and buy them.  If I was walking the docks at a boat show and saw that boat there there, I probably wouldn't even step aboard to take a closer look  - it is just that bad looking to my eye. "Ugly" is obviously in the eye of the beholder. And, I am probably the one who is "out on the fringe" anymore, as there is a whole new generation of butt ugly boats being proudly built and offered for sale today - and more and more people look at them and say "cool".  But, there is honestly not a line on that boat that looks good to me. 

6187451_20170402110344253_1_XLARGE.jpg&w=924&h=693&t=1491159837000

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Don't worry Tom, you are not so much out on the fringe...unless I am....anyway I too have had the odd, idle burdensome moment of trying to figure out what the hell someone...anyone... sees in these things aesthetically.

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14 hours ago, Tom Scott said:

I guess we should have asked the OP about his sense of "aesthetics".

Well... this was my last boat. A Sabre Spirit. Lovely to sail and with nice lines, IMO. I sold it during a period in which I was not sailing much (new little kids and lots of work). I regret that, though It would lot be ideal for my purposes now.

cover.jpg

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Dude, just go to an agent or broker. They like to suck rich people's dicks and tell them how great they are for some money and they'll sell you what you "need".

half a million dollars and you don't know how to spend it?! You sound like the deuchbags in that commercial that go to the architect and tell him to design a house around a kitchen faucet.

puke

 

puke

puke

Who told you to get the Sabre since you can't make any decisions for yourself?

buy another sabre and fuck off

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Thanks for the ideas and suggestions. Here's a recap.

My original thought:

  • X-Yachts X4.3

Racing oriented:

  • Pogo 12.5
  • RM 12.70

Cruising oriented:

  • Little Harbor 50
  • Outbound 44
  • Catalina 42 / 425
  • Hanse 455
  • Mid 40 foot Euro cruiser / charter boat
  • Catamaran 

 

Based on all the comments, I may need to be open to a 2 cabin boat, and that when the whole family is together, that two people will be sleeping in the main cabin. Again, I'd like to keep it a bit smaller (for clarity, this is what I meant when I said "it can't be too big"), easy to single hand, with furling main and jib. I also realize I want something new-ish. I don't have the time or bandwidth to manage a refit or a lot of repairs. I just want it to work out of the box.

Any experience with the J112E?

 

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15 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Dude, just go to an agent or broker. They like to suck rich people's dicks and tell them how great they are for some money and they'll sell you what you "need".

half a million dollars and you don't know how to spend it?! You sound like the deuchbags in that commercial that go to the architect and tell him to design a house around a kitchen faucet.

puke

 

puke

puke

Who told you to get the Sabre since you can't make any decisions for yourself?

buy another sabre and fuck off

Lol. Who hurt you?

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Modern sailplans...the triple head rig ...are superior for cruising 

you will always have the correct sail combo with  little interior  volume is lost to sail storage 

offshore boats operate on reaches, light air and need to be verypowerful.

if youre an inshore guy favour upwind abilty.

 

Inshore or offshore The cutter rig always wins. 

 

 

 

 

image.jpg

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Suggestions that you think hard about priorities. Kids that age don't like passages. Go someplace close, anchor, swim, dinghy ashore and picnic, etc. suggestion to buy the boat you need now is spot on. You need a coastal, 40-45' shoal draft (Bahamas are a lot more likely for you than Bermuda) boat with room for the kids and a non blue chip fit and finish that you will allow the kids to be kids on. The Little harbor is a great looking boat but those team decks are not new, screwed down and a $50k fix waiting on a sucker. Team is also hot as hell for kids feet in the mid Atlantic summer. 

Production 3 cabin boat in shoal draft. Cat 42 or 425, is a reasonable choice and will allow you to save at least 1/2 of your budget for you "forever boat" later. 

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This is the boat you are getting, so get a good look at it and google search it yourself.

You described it to a tee minus the "blue chip" fit and finish which can make for a very Affluenza Looking family. 

I don't like being the dick, but poor Tom wore himself out in a gentlemanly manner describing this boat even though he linked to an ad for another boat that you might not like the looks of. 

No one would think this boat is any less appealing than those new euroliners and they sail fine when your not weekending on them!

Good luck on your search and get out on the water sooner than your time allows, because one day it will be too late...

Salty ;)

 

IMG_4788.JPG

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2 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Suggestions that you think hard about priorities. Kids that age don't like passages. Go someplace close, anchor, swim, dinghy ashore and picnic, etc. suggestion to buy the boat you need now is spot on. You need a coastal, 40-45' shoal draft (Bahamas are a lot more likely for you than Bermuda) boat with room for the kids and a non blue chip fit and finish that you will allow the kids to be kids on.

 

Now that's some great, constructive advice re: letting kids be kids. If we can't be relaxed, it won't be fun. Thanks!

 

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

This is the boat you are getting, so get a good look at it and google search it yourself.

You described it to a tee minus the "blue chip" fit and finish which can make for a very Affluenza Looking family. 

I don't like being the dick, but poor Tom wore himself out in a gentlemanly manner describing this boat even though he linked to an ad for another boat that you might not like the looks of. 

No one would think this boat is any less appealing than those new euroliners and they sail fine when your not weekending on them!

Good luck on your search and get out on the water sooner than your time allows, because one day it will be too late...

Salty ;)

 

IMG_4788.JPG

I think the 42 / 425 is a great suggestion in most every regard, and reasonably priced.

I was a bit put off by the really uncalled for assumptions and hostility. And it's not really fair to blame your behavior on Tom - as you said, he is a gentleman. No worries, though.

Cheers!

 

 

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7 hours ago, ptm said:

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions. Here's a recap.

My original thought:

  • X-Yachts X4.3

Racing oriented:

  • Pogo 12.5
  • RM 12.70

Cruising oriented:

  • Little Harbor 50
  • Outbound 44
  • Catalina 42 / 425
  • Hanse 455
  • Mid 40 foot Euro cruiser / charter boat
  • Catamaran 

 

Based on all the comments, I may need to be open to a 2 cabin boat, and that when the whole family is together, that two people will be sleeping in the main cabin. Again, I'd like to keep it a bit smaller (for clarity, this is what I meant when I said "it can't be too big"), easy to single hand, with furling main and jib. I also realize I want something new-ish. I don't have the time or bandwidth to manage a refit or a lot of repairs. I just want it to work out of the box.

Any experience with the J112E?

 

Not with a J/112E, but with its predecessor, the J/109.  I had 3 kids at the time, aged 8-11 when I bought the boat.  Much of what Innocent Bystander said about kids on boats at that age is true.  My kids thought of the boat as the worlds biggest diving board, and were often most happy if we just motor out into the river, and anchored to let them swim.  We spent many a weekend on the boat.  Did several overnight cruises with it, and a week long cruise too.  (All on the Chesapeake, but know a guy who did the Annapolis Bermuda race on his, and one J/109 cruised around the world).  The two girls slept in the v-berth, the boy in the main cabin, and my wife and I in the aft cabin.  Obviously you would have to sleep 2 in the main cabin.  We used light fleece sleeping bags for all the kids, so it was easy to put the bedding out at night, and store it again in the morning. Its also a great performance boat for the money, and we raced ours alot.  At first without the kids, then later with them more and more, until they were a regular part of my crew.  Finally, my wife and I could easily handle the boat by ourselves, and I single-handed it multiple times with no issues.  A good autopilot helped.  I would have to think the J/112E would serve just as well, if not maybe a touch better as the J/109 did.

Compared to many boats being suggested, the J/112E with sail "better" with more feel and responsiveness.  But it is not nearly as roomy as the boats being suggested either. The last thing I'll say about J/Boats is they tend to hold their values well, and don't depreciate as much as some of the other boats suggested.  But that only matters if you are buying new.  Most used boats you'd buy have (of course) already experienced  the steep part of their depreciation curve.

Lastly, I agree with the folks who are urging you to buy the boat that best fits your needs/how you will use it today and in the near future.  If it turns out that Blue Water cruising is something you are really going to do once the kids grow up/move out, then sell this boat, and buy that one. 

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14 minutes ago, Crash said:

Compared to many boats being suggested, the J/112E with sail "better" with more feel and responsiveness.  But it is not nearly as roomy as the boats being suggested either. 

Thanks. That's the intangible I'm looking for.  My Sabre was also a boat with great feel and responsiveness, and although a lot of cruising boats have amazing accommodations and utility, I'm worried I'd miss the feel / fun factor. 

14 minutes ago, Crash said:

Lastly, I agree with the folks who are urging you to buy the boat that best fits your needs/how you will use it today and in the near future.  If it turns out that Blue Water cruising is something you are really going to do once the kids grow up/move out, then sell this boat, and buy that one. 

Yeah - heard loud and clear. Based on that, long distance cruising is not a near-term reality. A smaller, fun, easy to use boat is probably what I need now. If it's too close to camping, though, my wife might not join me as often.

8 minutes ago, Crash said:

Thanks. With a 12 year old boat, in your experience, are there likely to be any nasty surprises?

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At twelve years old there could be, but a decent surveyor should be able to find them.  With 350 J/109s built, and many still actively racing, most of the issues have been discovered and addressed, either  by changes in the production run or by previous owners.  Aft keel sump and rudder bearings were two early boat issues...in general, sump is very shallow, so if water built up in it, then it could slosh around when boat heeled, and get sucked up into plywood furniture along the sole turning it dark.  I used to sponge my bilge dry before sailing...

J/Boats are cored, so at 12 years, if neglected, there could be wet core issues.  But, again, I think a good surveyor would be able to determine if that was an issue...I'd buy another 109 in a heartbeat.  Also the shoal draft 109s weren't typically raced hard and put away wet like a few of the deep draft boats were, so that's to your advantage too I'd think.

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

I looked at that one last year.  A bit neglected - main left on the boom and sail cover disintegrating (boat on land for two years), some mold down below, the wheel compass protected by a baseball cap.......

This looks like a far, far better SD J/109:

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/54751

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Good to know Slap...Do you know if the one on sailboat listings is still available?  Ad dates to Dec 2015...

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55 minutes ago, slap said:
2 hours ago, Crash said:

I looked at that one last year.  A bit neglected - main left on the boom and sail cover disintegrating (boat on land for two years), some mold down below, the wheel compass protected by a baseball cap.......

This looks like a far, far better SD J/109:

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/54751

J/109 is nice enough, but a family of six on one for any extended period of time may well end in violence. Kinda tight space for that many people.

There are a few three cabin boats out there in the 40ish foot range that would serve a little better. Heck, we did a number of trips with six (my wife, me, the two kids and my parents) on the 40.7 with three cabins that were workable.

For the stated budget ($500K) and the stated purpose (family cruising on weekends and holidays) there are a ton of good options out there in a three cabin configuration in mid forties lengths.

I agree completely with buying the boat for what you are doing today (coastal weekends & vacations) instead of what you are doing some day. We bought our HR53 - which is a boat that meets most of your requirements but size BTW - to sail bluewater. We ended up coastal cruising it for six years first, as the economy didn't line up with the economic objectives for our cruising plans. She was a delightful boat for coastal cruising, and we were always the center boat in the raft with spare water and ice for everyone. But it was TOTAL overkill for popping out to Block Island for the weekend, even if we were always ready to win the party. I'd never, ever buy a boat like this one if my objective was just weekends at Block and two weeks a year in the Cape & islands.

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BJ,

I don't disagree...I was originally responding to his question re the J/112E.   As I said in that post, "Compared to many boats being suggested, the J/112E with sail "better" with more feel and responsiveness.  But it is not nearly as roomy as the boats being suggested either. "  Plus as I said, the longest I did was a week, and that was with 5 (3 kids) and we pulled in to Marina's as much as we anchored out.  No violence occurred, but kids were all still pre-teen at that point.

I guess it all depends on what you want and are willing to trade.  Given his budget and that racing isn't on his list, personally, I'd go bigger.  Given my budget, and my racing bent, I was very happy with my 109.

Crash

 

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7 minutes ago, Crash said:

BJ,

I don't disagree...I was originally responding to his question re the J/112E.   As I said in that post, "Compared to many boats being suggested, the J/112E with sail "better" with more feel and responsiveness.  But it is not nearly as roomy as the boats being suggested either. "  Plus as I said, the longest I did was a week, and that was with 5 (3 kids) and we pulled in to Marina's as much as we anchored out.  No violence occurred, but kids were all still pre-teen at that point.

I guess it all depends on what you want and are willing to trade.  Given his budget and that racing isn't on his list, personally, I'd go bigger.  Given my budget, and my racing bent, I was very happy with my 109.

Crash

 

I saw that, but it led to the J/109 being discussed as a serious option for this guy. But I don't think it is, any more than a four door Camry, while a great car, is a suitable primary vehicle for his lot of six.

If I was buying a boat for coastal cruising today, I'd give Dufour & Dehler a hard look. The Dufour 460 is right in the price range, with a 3 or 4 cabin option. The trick is finding one a few years used in North America.

 

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BJ,

J/109 has enough real berths to sleep 7.  (one of the settee's pulls out to be a double).  So he can sleep 6 with little issue.  Camry can only seat 5, so not a viable option.  Again, given how I sail, and my budget, and my need for performance, a J/109 would be a serious candidate, even with 4 kids....so I think it deserves consideration.  It will sail as good or better then his Sabre Spirit did.  It will accommodate his whole family, and let he and his wife easily handle the boat.  He can overnight and coastal cruise very reasonably.  Would I take 6 on a J/109 to the Bahama's for 3 months...maybe not.  Though in my college years, I spent entire summers living on and racing a Navy 44 Luders Yawl with a crew of 8, and that certainly has no more room then a J/109.

Given what I perceive to be his requirements, I don't think the J/109 (or the 112E) is the right answer.  I was going to originally suggest something like a Jeanneau Sun Oddessy 42i with the shoal keel and 3 cabin layout.  But I couldn't find any listed with that configuration.  All that said, we don't have to be in complete agreement necessarily either.  WE are giving him thoughts to ponder as he considers what best fits his needs and wants.  Your point of view is just as, if not more, valid in that regard than mine as you have done all that I've done on and with boats, and more.

Crash

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

Good to know Slap...Do you know if the one on sailboat listings is still available?  Ad dates to Dec 2015...

I had emailed the owner back on 15 March 2017, and it was still for sale then.

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Hey Gents - Really appreciate all of the thoughts and insight. I'll have a look at the Dehlers, Dufours and the Jeaneau Sun Odyssey, too.

The Camry reference is an apt one. I really don't want a Toyota minivan, even though it seats six or seven, is cheap and practical. I am buying something for fun, and so I hope to find something fun to sail. It's not about being snobby or spending money for the sake of it. If I just wanted accommodation, a Lagoon cat might be the perfect option.

Thanks again. You guys have been though provoking and very helpful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I saw that, but it led to the J/109 being discussed as a serious option for this guy. But I don't think it is, any more than a four door Camry, while a great car, is a suitable primary vehicle for his lot of six.

If I was buying a boat for coastal cruising today, I'd give Dufour & Dehler a hard look. The Dufour 460 is right in the price range, with a 3 or 4 cabin option. The trick is finding one a few years used in North America.

 

With shoal draft. Starts to become unicorn territory and every inch under 6' is a godsend in Pamlico and the Bahamas unless you are marina hopping. 

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On 7/15/2017 at 11:16 AM, ancientseawolf said:

That Little Harbor has the "row away factor" for sure

But not much else. For a family of 6 he should buy something that was designed this century.

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Since we're all playing the game and spending someone else's money.  This will make a fine family cruiser, fast, easy to sail, plenty of room for the gang, can be single handed once it's off the dock and will outlive your kids kids.  This is the boat to be on for this years Chicago Mac, it will get you to Bermuda or the Caribbean or the Med or just about anywhere you want to go and it's under budget.  Just remember the 1.5 ~2.5% annual maintenance cost of the NEW replacement.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1974/C%26C-Custom-Cruiser-2804774/Roche-Harbor/WA/United-States#.WWv0RojytPY

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34 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:
1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

I saw that, but it led to the J/109 being discussed as a serious option for this guy. But I don't think it is, any more than a four door Camry, while a great car, is a suitable primary vehicle for his lot of six.

If I was buying a boat for coastal cruising today, I'd give Dufour & Dehler a hard look. The Dufour 460 is right in the price range, with a 3 or 4 cabin option. The trick is finding one a few years used in North America.

 

With shoal draft. Starts to become unicorn territory and every inch under 6' is a godsend in Pamlico and the Bahamas unless you are marina hopping. 

Yeah...if I was near you or him and coastal cruising I'd take a long hard look at a cat. Especially if you can stick the four kids in the other hull.

I was quite impressed by a Fontaine Pajot we went out in for a whale watch in New Caledonia.

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41 minutes ago, Bryanjb said:

Since we're all playing the game and spending someone else's money.  This will make a fine family cruiser, fast, easy to sail, plenty of room for the gang, can be single handed once it's off the dock and will outlive your kids kids.  This is the boat to be on for this years Chicago Mac, it will get you to Bermuda or the Caribbean or the Med or just about anywhere you want to go and it's under budget.  Just remember the 1.5 ~2.5% annual maintenance cost of the NEW replacement.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1974/C%26C-Custom-Cruiser-2804774/Roche-Harbor/WA/United-States#.WWv0RojytPY

C-mon!  It draws 8'-3".  It will go nowhere in Pamlico sound. And even if it could actually float somewhere nearby, it won't be able to use the ICW because it won't fit under any bridges!

It is a wonderful boat - no doubt. But it is not a good choice for coastal cruising the eastern seaboard. <_<

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23 minutes ago, slap said:

Absolutely beautiful boat. 

With a tiny interior.

It's a couple's boat.  With room for a few visitors.

Sure, it is not huge - but it is certainly not "tiny" either. There is a lot more usable storage on that boat than you can imagine - and with no need to use berths for storage like so many other boats must. And for weekending and over-nighting (..the most recent expected primary use by the OP), that boat could work exceptionally well - it has berths for six in two cabins, shoal draft, is fun to sail, is well built, and way under budget. Would six people be happy for three weeks aboard? Probably not. But an over-nighter, a three day weekend, even a week aboard could be very pleasant on such a boat crewed by two parents and four kids - especially when they were able to get someplace where the deep draft and high-sided "spacious" boats can't reach.

However, it is definitely not new, modern, fat, high-sided, or ugly - so it is off the consideration list anyway. -_-

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19 minutes ago, Tom Scott said:

Sure, it is not huge - but it is certainly not "tiny" either. There is a lot more usable storage on that boat than you can imagine - and with no need to use berths for storage like so many other boats must. And for weekending and over-nighting (..the most recent expected primary use by the OP), that boat could work exceptionally well - it has berths for six in two cabins, shoal draft, is fun to sail, is well built, and way under budget. Would six people be happy for three weeks aboard? Probably not. But an over-nighter, a three day weekend, even a week aboard could be very pleasant on such a boat crewed by two parents and four kids - especially when they were able to get someplace where the deep draft and high-sided "spacious" boats can't reach.

However, it is definitely not new, modern, fat, high-sided, or ugly - so it is off the consideration list anyway. -_-

With 4 kids I'd want to have at least two sleeping cabins.  If very shoal draft (around 4'-3") was a requirement I'd consider a Sabre 38 II centerboard version over a BI40. 

But a boat with at least three sleeping cabins would be better for the OP.

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On 7/15/2017 at 7:14 AM, ptm said:

...

With regard to a cat - I have considered it. However, other than potentially being fast, I have never heard anyone say they were fun to sail. The perfect boat, to me, is the one where you can feel the boat get powered up, trimmed and balanced. More like carving on skis (or snowboard or surfboard - pick your board) - rewarding in the activity itself. 

So any more ideas or suggestions on the fun to sail side? Thanks!

I'd disagree on that. Heeling, and attending to life needs like cooking and, uh, disposing of digested cooking is way overrated. A decent (daggerboarded) performance cat (not a condomaran) will let you know it's powering up just fine, except you'll be leaning back rather than abeam. We've sailed parts of the ICW, and there is nothing easier to get unstuck from mud than a daggerboard cat. Marina life ain't all it's cracked up to be, and the cat gives you far more anchoring options. Kids go nuts over dinghies (we had 4 in their lower 20s on the last run, and they - all girls - still fought over driving duty...) Also, separation space is a real plus. Your kids *will* bring friends. When they hit the teen years you will appreciate the room. Our 6 ladies scattered all over the tramps and bridgedeck, dads drove the boat, distributed gear, ran the grill, moms owned the galley (and shoreside credit cards!) and pirates ruled the laptops each night.

We've driven both monos and cats (without owning them!) with similar passenger loads and usage, and performance cats just click our buttons. Maine Cats, Outremers, Catanas, and certain hard-to-find-in-the-US Aus cats like Graingers fit our bill.

Why not just charter each type and see how it fits for your family?

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I can agree with the comment to at least try a decent bridge deck cat. It might not be for you, but they do tick a lot of family chill time boxes. Those with dagger boards can sail quite well to windward, with the caveat that they do not like waves, and the motion is weird. They go like shit off a shovel with a reach, and everything goes ddw at (about) the same speed

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3 hours ago, Rantifarian said:

I can agree with the comment to at least try a decent bridge deck cat. It might not be for you, but they do tick a lot of family chill time boxes. Those with dagger boards can sail quite well to windward, with the caveat that they do not like waves, and the motion is weird. They go like shit off a shovel with a reach, and everything goes ddw at (about) the same speed

This isn't good advice. Big difference between charter "roomerans" and a well built and sailing cat. You should at least look at the option more seriously  

You need space for the kids and their stuff. Don't be surprised if they all go below on the best sail of the season and play games. 

As to sleeping cabins, we went from a 31' boat to a 3 cabin 42 with 2 kids.  Biggest driver was to give them private space and make the sleeping cabins just that. Once the kids went to sleep, we could still use the salon as a salon or wake up in the morning at anchor, get coffee and relax. If you have to sleep the kids in the salon, you are camping out.  Not bad but the boat is either in awake mode or sleep mode. 

 

 

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Elan 450.  3 or 4 cabin version (you sacrifice a separate shower stall with the 4 cabin version).  Big salon and galley, wide open cockpit with Bimini so kids can play, dive, hang out.  Well under budget even after shipping from Europe so you can upgrade sails, equipment and electronics.  They are a little on the slow, draggy side with the twin rudder setup.

Four cabin version: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2008/Elan-450-2938702/At-request/Croatia#.WWzTAIjyuUk

 

J/Boats are not ideal for cruising longer than a weekend or in a race-type / camping situation.  No storage.  Especially on the 112/E.

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8 minutes ago, sailforbeer said:

Elan 450.  3 or 4 cabin version (you sacrifice a separate shower stall with the 4 cabin version).  Big salon and galley, wide open cockpit with Bimini so kids can play, dive, hang out.  Well under budget even after shipping from Europe so you can upgrade sails, equipment and electronics.  They are a little on the slow, draggy side with the twin rudder setup.

Four cabin version: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2008/Elan-450-2938702/At-request/Croatia#.WWzTAIjyuUk

 

J/Boats are not ideal for cruising longer than a weekend or in a race-type / camping situation.  No storage.  Especially on the 112/E.

Elan 450 is designed by Rob Humphreys, his boats use to be fast. But that may be as it may be, draft is .... hold your breath .... 2.65 m (~ 9 ft).

Apart from that I agree with the suggestion: 4 cabins, about 45 ft. Yes. Sail with the family, have fun together and don't think too much of being the fastest.

//J

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I think that big Little Harbor was probably built in Asia, maybe Lien Hwa yard. They moved production to RI around 1985 for better quality control.

Are you a camping family? We got our boat (a very small 42'er) when the kids were little, they had no problem with pilot berths and quarter berths, they could sleep underway because we had lee cloths. Rather than think of it as a third home, we thought of it as the most glorious camping, and at only 42' with electric inmast main, electric primary winches and  electric windlass, she was a piece of cake to singlehand. She's also proven big enough to do Bermuda  4 times under our ownership. We parked next to a Catalina 42 Mk II a few weeks ago, and I'm pretty sure that boat was twice our size. If she (the Catalina) punches all of your buttons, it a good boat.

Several wise people have advised to get the smallest boat that will suit your needs, you'll probably sail it more.  

We thought from time to time of getting a 50-52'er, but really it was too much boat for when the wife and I just want to go sailing.

Most 3 stateroom boats have 3 couples in mind, not kids. They have double berths, where uppers and lowers would be better for you. If you get something with a pair of quartercabins, you can have split mattresses and rig a lee cloth up the middle. Still, a dedicated single berth almost gives more privacy.

The best cockpit tables I've seen are on the Little Harbors 46' or over, easily seating 6 for dinner. The compromise is that they are fixed, impeding movement across the cockpit.

Cruising has changed, and cruising boats have changed, too. Old school boats had a lot of single berths, because they were meant to sail, and sleeping underway was important. In my opinion, these boats make great family boats, because everyone gets their own bunk, you don't have to eat where someone sleeps, the parents get a private cabin at anchor, and you don't end up with a giant boat  by giving everyone a "bedroom". A lot of cruising boats these day simply don't have well thought out sea berths. We bought our boat for family adventure, essentially glorified camping, and she's served us well for that, but we understood the mission from the outset.  

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

This is good advice. Big difference between charter "roomerans" and a well built and sailing cat. You should at least look at the option more seriously  

You need space for the kids and their stuff. Don't be surprised if they all go below on the best sail of the season and play games. 

As to sleeping cabins, we went from a 31' boat to a 3 cabin 42 with 2 kids.  Biggest driver was to give them private space and make the sleeping cabins just that. Once the kids went to sleep, we could still use the salon as a salon or wake up in the morning at anchor, get coffee and relax. If you have to sleep the kids in the salon, you are camping out.  Not bad but the boat is either in awake mode or sleep mode. 

 

 

Too late to edit. Fixed. Considering a cat is good advice. 

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I always rather fancied one of the Cigales, they do a 14m and 16m version, they might be a little deep for you.  Performance go anywhere cruising yacht, the 'old' ones are under your budget.

http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1393745/

The current models are nice, obviously slightly more modern, not sure what they cost new but you don't tend to find them second hand.

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9 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

This isn't good advice. Big difference between charter "roomerans" and a well built and sailing cat. You should at least look at the option more seriously  

You need space for the kids and their stuff. Don't be surprised if they all go below on the best sail of the season and play games. 

As to sleeping cabins, we went from a 31' boat to a 3 cabin 42 with 2 kids.  Biggest driver was to give them private space and make the sleeping cabins just that. Once the kids went to sleep, we could still use the salon as a salon or wake up in the morning at anchor, get coffee and relax. If you have to sleep the kids in the salon, you are camping out.  Not bad but the boat is either in awake mode or sleep mode. 

 

 

Having someone sacked out in the saloon as a big bag of suck, from a long term boat enjoyment perspective. You can either wake them, or tip toe, whisper and wait for them to get up. Oh, and you can also go to bed when they do. You can work around it for a crowded weekend, but I'd not want to have that be my experience every single time I took the boat out.

Of course, the people that stay up the latest also tend to get up later too. So it's a cruddy compromise. The three cabin layout on the 40.7 was fantastic for avoiding those problems. The only time we had people sleeping in the main saloon was at events like Figawi where we had more than six on board.

You need a living space where the grownups can talk quietly once the kids are in bed, and you can get up and make the coffee in the AM without waking the sluggards.

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6 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

I think that big Little Harbor was probably built in Asia, maybe Lien Hwa yard. They moved production to RI around 1985 for better quality control.

Are you a camping family? We got our boat (a very small 42'er) when the kids were little, they had no problem with pilot berths and quarter berths, they could sleep underway because we had lee cloths. Rather than think of it as a third home, we thought of it as the most glorious camping, and at only 42' with electric inmast main, electric primary winches and  electric windlass, she was a piece of cake to singlehand. She's also proven big enough to do Bermuda  4 times under our ownership. We parked next to a Catalina 42 Mk II a few weeks ago, and I'm pretty sure that boat was twice our size. If she (the Catalina) punches all of your buttons, it a good boat.

Several wise people have advised to get the smallest boat that will suit your needs, you'll probably sail it more.  

We thought from time to time of getting a 50-52'er, but really it was too much boat for when the wife and I just want to go sailing.

Most 3 stateroom boats have 3 couples in mind, not kids. They have double berths, where uppers and lowers would be better for you. If you get something with a pair of quartercabins, you can have split mattresses and rig a lee cloth up the middle. Still, a dedicated single berth almost gives more privacy.

The best cockpit tables I've seen are on the Little Harbors 46' or over, easily seating 6 for dinner. The compromise is that they are fixed, impeding movement across the cockpit.

Cruising has changed, and cruising boats have changed, too. Old school boats had a lot of single berths, because they were meant to sail, and sleeping underway was important. In my opinion, these boats make great family boats, because everyone gets their own bunk, you don't have to eat where someone sleeps, the parents get a private cabin at anchor, and you don't end up with a giant boat  by giving everyone a "bedroom". A lot of cruising boats these day simply don't have well thought out sea berths. We bought our boat for family adventure, essentially glorified camping, and she's served us well for that, but we understood the mission from the outset.  

 

 

 

Some truth to that. When we had the 40.7, our kids were much smaller and younger. More often than not for a weekend, I'd shove all the racing sails on one of the aft cabins and the two kids would share the other one. We'd take the V-berth cabin. It was much easier than humping all the carbon up and down the dock for a 2-3 day trip. We could have easily handled four younger children on that boat.

For week long vacations we'd clear out the boat and get the kids their own spaces unless someone was joining us for it.

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7 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Are you a camping family?

My kids and I like camping. My wife is somewhat less keen. How's that for diplomatic? :mellow:

7 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Several wise people have advised to get the smallest boat that will suit your needs, you'll probably sail it more.  

 

I have now heard that again and again, as well as to buy the boat I will use now (vs for future plans/dreams). Great advice.

The more feedback I get, the more I realize that a 40 +/- foot, fast, fun, boat with furling main and decent (but not spartan) accommodation is what I am looking for. With absolutely no offense intended, I realize an older boat is not for me. Some are beautiful with great lines and furniture, but I am looking for something faster and more fun. The boats that speak to me are the Pogo 12.5, the RM yachts, the J Boats, and the X4. Maybe unrealistic, but that's where the emotional side of the purchase is.

Thanks again for the ideas. Keep 'em coming. I've benefited a lot from the combined wisdom (?) of the group, and I appreciate it.

 

 

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8 hours ago, sailforbeer said:

J/Boats are not ideal for cruising longer than a weekend or in a race-type / camping situation.  No storage.  Especially on the 112/E.

I guess that depends on what you consider ideal, and how much stuff (crap) you feel you need to bring with you.  Like I said, we did a week with 5 on a 109, and another couple took a 109 around the world. Yes, with more than 2, your beginning to get closer to camping, but holy big boats Batman, what did we do for cruising 50 years ago, when short of true yachts, no boat had the room that today's modern boats bring?  People still cruised.  

Maybe we're all getting fat and lazy?  Ok, I don't really mean that, but several folks have stated that the OP "needs" 3 cabins as a minimum requirement.  He doesn't if glorified camping is good for him and his family.  I get that with his budget he could easily get 3 cabins, and so why not, but what about someone with a budget significantly smaller then 500-600k.  Do we really mean to tell other families with less money, or folks newer to sailing that they will just have to wait because you "need" 3 cabins if your'e a family of 6?

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3 minutes ago, ptm said:

My kids and I like camping. My wife is somewhat less keen. How's that for diplomatic? :mellow:

I have now heard that again and again, as well as to buy the boat I will use now (vs for future plans/dreams). Great advice.

The more feedback I get, the more I realize that a 40 +/- foot, fast, fun, boat with furling main and decent (but not spartan) accommodation is what I am looking for. With absolutely no offense intended, I realize an older boat is not for me. Some are beautiful with great lines and furniture, but I am looking for something faster and more fun. The boats that speak to me are the Pogo 12.5, the RM yachts, the J Boats, and the X4. Maybe unrealistic, but that's where the emotional side of the purchase is.

Thanks again for the ideas. Keep 'em coming. I've benefited a lot from the combined wisdom (?) of the group, and I appreciate it.

 

 

If you want to keep it fast and fun, make sure the furling main, furls in the boom and not the mast.  IMHO there are too many sail shape/size compromises with in-mast furling

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Well I know what I would be buying. A bridgedeck performance cat. An Outremer 49 fits the bill.

Quote

 

Our test boat boasted a big square-headed mainsail, and with this sail plus a screecher we maintained 8 to 9.5 knots of boatspeed on a close reach in flat water on Chesapeake Bay in a little less than 10 knots of apparent wind. Once the breeze piped up to 16 knots, we were doing better than 11 knots.

Thanks to the daggerboards, the boat also did quite well sailing closehauled under the full main and self-tacking solent jib. Sailing into an apparent wind of 18 knots at an apparent angle of 25 degrees, we hit speeds in excess of 9 knots and had little trouble short-tacking up to Annapolis ahead of several other boats that were motoring straight in.

Steering the boat under sail with the tillers was a real treat. It was easy to make the small adjustments necessary to keep the boat cooking in a groove with just one hand, while helm feel, for a cat, was superb. Making big course changes with the tiller was hard work, so when tacking or maneuvering under power we switched to the wheel.

 

Draft 2 ft 9.

Comes with a self tacking jib so easy to tack singlehanded;

two engines so very manouverable without a bow thruster.

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Ok, I'm back. 

I understand the not getting an older boat thing. One of my best clients has a son with the same type of expectations as you as far as what he can afford and wants.

Have you checked out the Sun Jenneau line? They are pretty nice to look at from any angle and the PO of my Catalina 42 stepped up to a 53 and Wow!

 

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