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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Heather Travel

Dennis Conner 1988 catamaran win video?

67 posts in this topic

This is odd? There is no video of Dennis Conner winning the very FIRST America's Cup in a catamaran in 1988. It was the defining moment in sail racing and the beginning of multi-hull boats of today. Who has film or video of that race?

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Why would we want to see a failed moment in the cup.  Connor resorted to trickery to beat a DoG match which was bad enough.  What was worse he opened the door for cats to enter this Event.  That AC was "won" in the courts and I would hope Dennis Connor, the man who exemplified the spirit of the America's Cup, would hang his head in shame for that regatta. 

However... here's a perspective
 

 

 

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Clive Robertson = legend!

This vid shows the soft sail cat sailing, the Kiwi side is very similar to our AC anarchy ETNZ threads with gushes & rightiousnessesss that rule scaming Kiwis get into, before those same rules ream them bigly at the end.

(inuendo) ? :)

 

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Fay was a dick for challenging like this and Conner likewise for defending like this.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Fay was a dick for challenging like this and Conner likewise for defending like this.

You are half right.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Fay was a dick for challenging like this and Conner likewise for defending like this.

You're both wrong.

Fay was a dick but it has nothing to do with the very legit Challenge.

 

Somewhere along the way I do have full length vids of the races.

I think someone posted here in SAAC during build up to AC32?

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2 hours ago, pluscount said:

You are half right.

 

2 hours ago, hoom said:

You're both wrong.

Fay was a dick but it has nothing to do with the very legit Challenge.

 

Somewhere along the way I do have full length vids of the races.

I think someone posted here in SAAC during build up to AC32?

Oh well, I'm pleased that I could get both your heckles up :)

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9 hours ago, Heather Travel said:

This is odd? There is no video of Dennis Conner winning the very FIRST America's Cup in a catamaran in 1988. It was the defining moment in sail racing and the beginning of multi-hull boats of today. Who has film or video of that race?

I have it all, although with commercials since it came-on in mid-afternoon, of both races. I don't think I have them on DVD yet, still on VHS. I will look.

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That DOG challenge was total BS from the get go, and DC shut them down just the way he should've. That cat was awesome, and DC frikken owned that press conference - and that's coming from someone who doesn't particularly love DC.

 

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Part of me would love to see Spithill and Connor in opposing teams in a presser

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12 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

I have it all, although with commercials since it came-on in mid-afternoon, of both races. I don't think I have them on DVD yet, still on VHS. I will look.

Just looked, not on dvd, could do it though.

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If you have VHS of the race I would be interested in seeing it. I'm working on a Travel story about the recent evolution of the catamaran sailing on foils. It's breathtaking to watch these Jules Verne like designs perform 'Tron' like turns! Some of the race looks more like computer generated animation than reality.

This design compares to the first turbine race car in the Indy 500. Like the 1988 cup race, where one team fought to make a bigger boat, while the other team was making new type to boat. Conner's team outsmarted and out performed the challenger twice.

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I looked at the clips on youtube and they are too poor quality to use in my Travel video. I could not find any stock footage of the US-1 racing or practicing. Like it or not, it was a defining moment in Cup history. I grew up watching Hydroplane racing in Seattle, so I found sail board racing a little boring, until now.

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20 hours ago, Modernrate Buai said:

This vid shows the soft sail cat sailing, the Kiwi side is very similar to our AC anarchy ETNZ threads with gushes & rightiousnessesss that rule scaming Kiwis get into, before those same rules ream them bigly at the end.

 

Isn't it

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1 hour ago, Heather Travel said:

I looked at the clips on youtube and they are too poor quality to use in my Travel video. I could not find any stock footage of the US-1 racing or practicing. Like it or not, it was a defining moment in Cup history. I grew up watching Hydroplane racing in Seattle, so I found sail board racing a little boring, until now.

I made torrents for these two races a few years ago and posted the links here. I have no idea if the torrents are still going, but I doubt it. I am on vacation now, but can re torrent them next weekend when I get home.

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5 hours ago, Heather Travel said:

I looked at the clips on youtube and they are too poor quality to use in my Travel video. I could not find any stock footage of the US-1 racing or practicing. Like it or not, it was a defining moment in Cup history. I grew up watching Hydroplane racing in Seattle, so I found sail board racing a little boring, until now.

The vids I have will be pretty grainy also as they are 30 yo quality VHS, it will not be HD looking at all. Due to the length of the races I had to set it to a longer record time which was less quality. Looking at the ones on YouTube they will be much the same.

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On 16/07/2017 at 3:30 AM, Heather Travel said:

This is odd? There is no video of Dennis Conner winning the very FIRST America's Cup in a catamaran in 1988. It was the defining moment in sail racing and the beginning of multi-hull boats of today.

What????? That's just a complete load of rubbish. They were lots of big racing cats before S&S, and huge numbers of small ones. There seems to be no evidence that cats have become more popular since 1988, and a fair bit of evidence that the sport as a whole as declined in popularity.

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11 hours ago, pusslicker said:

I made torrents for these two races a few years ago and posted the links here.

Was probably that which I referenced previously :)

I've tried searching the forum for old posts a couple of times to try to find it again but no success so far :(

Don't know how to start a torrent but assuming its the same files (1.46 3:59:17 & 1.47GB 3:44:44) I can help seed a bit.

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On 2017-07-15 at 10:30 AM, Heather Travel said:

This is odd? There is no video of Dennis Conner winning the very FIRST America's Cup in a catamaran in 1988. It was the defining moment in sail racing and the beginning of multi-hull boats of today. Who has film or video of that race?

This was 10 years earlier......

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Watching this again now.

So tragic that neither boat got to race against a proper competitor, both such gorgeous amazing boats.

 

S&S really sandbagging much more obviously than I remember thinking last time I watched.

Maybe a bit of swell killing the flow & it was pretty light but pretty sure they could have been flying a hull most of the race if they actually tried.

 

The more things change the more they stay the same though: even back then Gary fucking Jobson making dumb calls, stupid unneccesary explanations of basics of sailing, live VMG being available but shown nowhere near enough to be useful, Pepsi trying to convince the current youth they prefer Pepsi...

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Wow, have no recollection whatsoever of the start of 2nd race where S&S got too close, slowed by a wave & sailing low.

KZ-1 did a dummy tack which S&S was matching, slowed S&S more, then a 2nd luff caused S&S to tack -> KZ-1 ahead for a while :huh:

 

An entirely avoidable mistake & the advantage didn't last long with DC pinching up from leeward bouncing KZ-1 off & then briefly powering up flying a hull to easily cross on port before slowing down again once the lead was secured.

 

Spectator boats following along just to leeward must have had an amazing view B)

 

Also notable that promo bits have a bunch of footage of S&S sailing no jib.

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Oh, wind came up for 2/3 of the windward leg, S&S dropped jib & flying hull a fair bit.

Kind of amazing how long those courses really were, with S&S actually sailing decently quick still 2hrs to the top mark.

 

Not even trying again on the first bit of the triangle though.

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I'm not upset about Dennis using a cat, Fay thought he hard read the rules smart, Conner had a read and read them smarter. However the unnecessary aspect was slating KZ-1 stating she was a dog. It was beaten by a very modern cat ( Even by today standard) with a winged sail. The facts of the matter was that KZ-1 got up to very fast speeds for a monohull with no movable ballast.  I saw her moving in the flesh and she was fast. If she was seaworthy ( I doubt it) and given a new mast with 3dl sails she would be impressive by today's standards. Here Flared hull was innovative and would of greatly improved the ballast effect of her crew.  Would she be able to foot it with Comanche I doubt it, Nearly thirty years has passed and design and build technology has moved on. I quite like Dennis Conner, I admire his spirit and innovative mind. But on winning stage after the DOG match he was a total dickhead. 

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Save us the indignation fella.

The skippers are having a laugh and appart from the rant about keeping fighting in the courts Fay gives it good.

It's Kirby who looses his shit when he gets WUM'ed by one of the US design team, gets involved when the winning team are supposed to be having their photo taken and gets dressed down by Conners for it.

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1 hour ago, rgeek said:

Save us the indignation fella.

The skippers are having a laugh and appart from the rant about keeping fighting in the courts Fay gives it good.

It's Kirby who looses his shit when he gets WUM'ed by one of the US design team, gets involved when the winning team are supposed to be having their photo taken and gets dressed down by Conners for it.

I dont think the following comments were great. The attack on Bruce Farr was not needed, In the end the person most tarnished was Dennis himself. This is a shame because hes one of greatest sailors of all Time. Its of interest in the 92 challenge he was relatively cash straped compared to previous defences run by Conner. 

Some of his press conference comments

Im sailing a cat someone else is sailing a dog

your a loser get off the stage

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On 7/15/2017 at 3:11 PM, bucc5062 said:

Why would we want to see a failed moment in the cup.  Connor resorted to trickery to beat a DoG match which was bad enough.  What was worse he opened the door for cats to enter this Event.  That AC was "won" in the courts and I would hope Dennis Connor, the man who exemplified the spirit of the America's Cup, would hang his head in shame for that regatta. 

However... here's a perspective
 

 

 

Yeah, the Kiwi's lodging a surprise challenge with a boat DC has no chance matching in the time frame given is the epitome of sportsmanship and fairness.  Well, Kiwi level of sportsmanship and fairness.  :lol:

There were no good guys in this edition of the Cup.  The Challenger launched a sneak attack challenge they didn't think the Defender could survive and the Defender, in survival mode, came up with a controversial response that proved successful both on the water and in the courts.  Those claiming one side is better than the other are just blinded by their own bias. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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"I'm sailing a cat, someone else is sailing a DoG" is just a play on words and he was clearly having a laugh with it.

Won in the room my arse. '88 was won on the water. Fay took it to the room before (where the judges answer was 'grow up and sort it out on the water') and after (where SDYC defended their victory), piled on the moral outrage and played on anti multihull prejudice to try and get what he wanted. The Kiwi team hadn't stopped the strong arm even at the presser afterwards as we can see.

When one group of fellas starts talking about having no respecting the other, not accepting the result, gets shirty about a lack of respect in return and starts physically fronting up on stage ... yeh sure it was Connor who was the only bad boy ...

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Since I was 11-12 when this all went down I wanted to do some research into the timeline of events surrounding the '88 Cup Defense.  I ran into this timeline of the '88 Cup Defense from the LA Times.  It has a lot of details I didin't know about, particularly all the efforts by other Challengers trying to get into the match.  Also, the LA Times article is dated March 29, 1989 so it ends with the Kiwi's winning in court.  So its not a complete timeline, but almost. ;)

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-03-29/sports/sp-626_1_sail-america

Reading that timeline it is interesting seeing the similarities between the '88 DoG match and 2010.  Those Kiwi's sure have put their mark on the Cup, both good and bad, from the start of their history with the Cup.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Holy shit, at the end they bloody well pulled 2* big magnums of Moet (& I think cans of beer, certainly Pepsi earlier) out of the windward hull for their celebrations :blink:

 

Part of the reason for the fiery pressers was they're obviously all thoroughly tanked up beforehand.

 

BBDDC certainly gave great quotes that have deservedly lived to become classics ^_^

And since then he's proven to be a classy guy during & after the 2 Auckland Defences.

 

23 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Yeah, the Kiwi's lodging a surprise challenge with a boat DC has no chance matching in the time frame given is the epitome of sportsmanship and fairness.

He gave the notice required by the DoG in the absence of any previous Challenge, DoG then requires you to agree terms, Mark Your Fucking Callendar or GTFO.

I do think there was a good argument for SDYC to have matched the type Challenged with, but that ruling having gone the other way Sailing is better off for S&S '88 existing.

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21 minutes ago, rgeek said:

Wasn't it then appealed and overturned?

Yes it was.  The LA Times article I quoted came out the day after the Kiwi's won in court.  DC later won after the appeal was overturned but I couldn't find a LA Times timeline that included that.  Thats why I said it wasn't a complete timeline.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

Yeah, the Kiwi's lodging a surprise challenge with a boat DC has no chance matching in the time frame given is the epitome of sportsmanship and fairness.  Well, Kiwi level of sportsmanship and fairness.  :lol:

There were no good guys in this edition of the Cup.  The Challenger launched a sneak attack challenge they didn't think the Defender could survive and the Defender, in survival mode, came up with a controversial response that proved successful both on the water and in the courts.  Those claiming one side is better than the other are just blinded by their own bias. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

You might want to give that timeline a little stroll. 

First, DC won the Cup in Feb and NZ did not send a Challenge till July of the same year.  That is hardly a surprise, but it was within the rules of the Deed.  NZ had the right to challenge in any boat and if you read the timeline, they gave Bruce Farr 3 days to design a 90' boat  so it was not like he had one in his pocket.

Second, once the challenge was presented at least two syndicates jump on right away and at the end of the year, there were at least 8 wanting to take up the challenge.

Quote

Eight America's Cup groups (six interantional challenger candidates and two U.S. syndicates seeking a role in defender trials) meet in New York. The group calls for a wider international regatta, agrees to compete in 90-foot sloops as specified in th MBBC challenge and asks MBBC to represent their interesets in negotiations with Sail America. Sail America refuses on all points.

The whole time this is going on DC and the SDYC are dicking in the courts to try and stop what was a legal challenge and one that others were willing to join in on.

Third, read on further, NZ was willing to give extra time for the US Defender to design and build a matching boat and time and time again DC and his cronies pushed it off.

Dennis Connor and the SDTA acted like dicks throughout the whole set up to the moment they announced they were going to race a Cat.  Then they just looked like assholes.

They were given a proper challenge that they could have straight up accepted or denied and given up the Cup.
They were given plenty of time to design and build a defender boat and instead they delayed and obstructed till some ethically challenged dick figured two 45' hulls is 90ft so....na na na na na.
They had 8 challengers interested which would have made for one hell of a visual spectacle for racing and even if they offered Hawaii as the race location, Fey would have agreed, knowing it would be a fantastic venue for such boats.  

End of the day, the US had a choice to take a high road and attempt to beat Fey with his own boat type and show US technology  and sailing was superior or do what they did, shit all over the Spirit of the Cup.  Connor jsut gave the blueprint for his little pissant protege Russell Coutts.  Both who embraced win at any cost, even if its the deconstruction of an Icon.

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2 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

You might want to give that timeline a little stroll. 

First, DC won the Cup in Feb and NZ did not send a Challenge till July of the same year.  That is hardly a surprise, but it was within the rules of the Deed.  NZ had the right to challenge in any boat and if you read the timeline, they gave Bruce Farr 3 days to design a 90' boat  so it was not like he had one in his pocket.

Second, once the challenge was presented at least two syndicates jump on right away and at the end of the year, there were at least 8 wanting to take up the challenge.

The whole time this is going on DC and the SDYC are dicking in the courts to try and stop what was a legal challenge and one that others were willing to join in on.

Third, read on further, NZ was willing to give extra time for the US Defender to design and build a matching boat and time and time again DC and his cronies pushed it off.

Dennis Connor and the SDTA acted like dicks throughout the whole set up to the moment they announced they were going to race a Cat.  Then they just looked like assholes.

They were given a proper challenge that they could have straight up accepted or denied and given up the Cup.
They were given plenty of time to design and build a defender boat and instead they delayed and obstructed till some ethically challenged dick figured two 45' hulls is 90ft so....na na na na na.
They had 8 challengers interested which would have made for one hell of a visual spectacle for racing and even if they offered Hawaii as the race location, Fey would have agreed, knowing it would be a fantastic venue for such boats.  

End of the day, the US had a choice to take a high road and attempt to beat Fey with his own boat type and show US technology  and sailing was superior or do what they did, shit all over the Spirit of the Cup.  Connor jsut gave the blueprint for his little pissant protege Russell Coutts.  Both who embraced win at any cost, even if its the deconstruction of an Icon.

You left out some other bits of information from that timelime that doesn't jibe with your opinion.

Once again, both sides of the '88 debacle tried to shit on the other.  And a couple challengers tried to get in on the shitting as well.  None of them were in the right so stop trying to rewrite history.   

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Some how I doubt blue arrow would of made the start line

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4 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

Eight America's Cup groups (six interantional challenger candidates and two U.S. syndicates seeking a role in defender trials) meet in New York. The group calls for a wider international regatta, agrees to compete in 90-foot sloops as specified in th MBBC challenge and asks MBBC to represent their interesets in negotiations with Sail America. Sail America refuses on all points.

This was particularly interesting, somehow I'd been of the understanding that it was Fay who refused to let the others in on his DoG :blink:

 

2 hours ago, WetHog said:

You left out some other bits of information from that timelime that doesn't jibe with your opinion.

You mean like

Quote

After being told by the SDYC that there would be no response to its challenge, New Zealand asks the New York Supreme Court, arbitrator of Deed of Gift conflicts, to order the SDYC to acknowledge the challenge at valid and binding.

...

Judge Ciparick rules the MBBC challenge is valid and disallows San Diego's request to amend the Deed of Gift. The court tells the SDYC that the choices are to sail a match for the Cup in accordance with the challenge and the terms of the Deed, to negotiate other terms by mutual consent, or to forfeit the Cup.

Oh no, wait thats SDYC being supremely cunty.

Beyond any kind of reason cunty.

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9 hours ago, WetHog said:

Yeah, the Kiwi's lodging a surprise challenge with a boat DC has no chance matching in the time frame given is the epitome of sportsmanship and fairness.  Well, Kiwi level of sportsmanship and fairness.  :lol:

There were no good guys in this edition of the Cup.  The Challenger launched a sneak attack challenge they didn't think the Defender could survive and the Defender, in survival mode, came up with a controversial response that proved successful both on the water and in the courts.  Those claiming one side is better than the other are just blinded by their own bias. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

So now that you have done a little research you might want to retract the bullshit you posted above.

7 days after coming up with the idea and asking Farr to give them some basic specs for the 'World's biggest sloop', they challenged, giving themselves and the defender 11 months to design, build, crew (and in their own case also to ship) a giant mono to SD.

 

The fact that SDYC 'illegally' ignored the perfectly valid and DOG legal Challenge, eventually left them with no alternative but to sail a smaller or less powerful but ready-to-race mono, to forfeit the Cup, or to go down the unsporting and legally dubious route they took - ignorance and arrogance combined....

 

but keep telling the Kiwis how to conduct themselves eh....;)

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1 hour ago, nav said:

 

So now that you have done a little research you might want to retract the bullshit you posted above.

7 days after coming up with the idea and asking Farr to give them some basic specs for the 'World's biggest sloop', they challenged, giving themselves and the defender 11 months to design, build, crew (and in their own case also to ship) a giant mono to SD.

 

The fact that SDYC 'illegally' ignored the perfectly valid and DOG legal Challenge, eventually left them with no alternative but to sail a smaller or less powerful but ready-to-race mono, to forfeit the Cup, or to go down the unsporting and legally dubious route they took - ignorance and arrogance combined....

 

but keep telling the Kiwis how to conduct themselves eh....;)

Arrogance for sure. Ignorance? Not so convinced. Help me out here, I'm still lost as to what was legally dubious.

 

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12 minutes ago, rgeek said:

.. but keep telling the Kiwis how to conduct themselves eh....;)

Offering opinionated advice to GD is a national sport, even in NZ. Nothing you advise is here about relaxing or to not 'keep telling the Kiwis how to conduct themselves eh' means squat.

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2 hours ago, nav said:

 

So now that you have done a little research you might want to retract the bullshit you posted above.

7 days after coming up with the idea and asking Farr to give them some basic specs for the 'World's biggest sloop', they challenged, giving themselves and the defender 11 months to design, build, crew (and in their own case also to ship) a giant mono to SD.

 

The fact that SDYC 'illegally' ignored the perfectly valid and DOG legal Challenge, eventually left them with no alternative but to sail a smaller or less powerful but ready-to-race mono, to forfeit the Cup, or to go down the unsporting and legally dubious route they took - ignorance and arrogance combined....

 

but keep telling the Kiwis how to conduct themselves eh....;)

Why do you need to resort to profanity to make your point

 

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11 hours ago, rgeek said:

"I'm sailing a cat, someone else is sailing a DoG" is just a play on words and he was clearly having a laugh with it.

Won in the room my arse. '88 was won on the water. Fay took it to the room before (where the judges answer was 'grow up and sort it out on the water') and after (where SDYC defended their victory), piled on the moral outrage and played on anti multihull prejudice to try and get what he wanted. The Kiwi team hadn't stopped the strong arm even at the presser afterwards as we can see.

When one group of fellas starts talking about having no respecting the other, not accepting the result, gets shirty about a lack of respect in return and starts physically fronting up on stage ... yeh sure it was Connor who was the only bad boy ...

Look the whole point I'm trying to make, for the life of me why did the Americans have a constant go at Bruce Farr. What was going on in that press conference was a lengthy and protracted war on Farr. It wasn't friendly banter but a protracted war on the man that had be going on for years. I'm not trying to be condescending to you rgreek  but there was an undercurrent going on in that most people were not aware of. During this period I was much more aware of the cup than I am now ( a lot more). I had been raised by a nautical family and was a fanatical follower of the cup even in 1970's even before most kiwi's were aware of it. So to say I was following what was happening at the time as a understatement. However this doesn't mean I know more than you. For all I know you could have even been at the conference

During the 1987  cup  a design team of Farr, Holland and Davidson had designed a Fiberglass 12 meter called KZ7 ( I'm sure your aware of this) most of the work came from Farr and he wasn't shy about telling everyone this( At this time Farr could be an arrogant p&*k). However the influence of Russel Bowler the technical specialist for Farr is also forgotten.  Bowler has had a history of pushing materials and design to the limit. The boat NZL-20 (Kiwis boat used in 1992 cup) was built so light that it use to bulge under load. Crew were told to try and sit on the bulge to straighten it up (That boat was a dog). I suspect it was Bowlers idea to go fibreglass he was also the coordinator between the designers.  

The simple story was KZ-7 was a fast boat and was the fastest 12 Meter in the world under 20 knots. Conner did beat the Kiwis through better sailing and advantageous wind conditions. If the weather had been light for the LV final he would of lost. In fact Conner was so shocked by KZ-7 performance he lengthened his hull to give his boat a good chance to beat KZ-7 in heavier winds. During the LV cup Conner went to war with the NZ challenge and accused them of building an illegal boat and in effect calling Bruce Farr a cheat. It was during this period that the tension between Farr and Conner started.

When the big boat challenge happened, Conner faced another battle ( Against these upstarts from New Zealand and that is they we were viewed then) and once again a boat designed by Farr.  So started to the public media war against the Kiwis and Bruce Farr

Those comments at the press conference were not off the cuff they were planned and measured (ie avoid court)

To say that the Kiwis were perfect .........Hell NO............Fay looked like a Dick and Farr didn't look to crash hot either

In the end the DOG was a public relations disaster for everyone. 

 

In the end Bruce Farr only crime was designing boats that scared Dennis ( at that time)

We all well know now....... that Farr is not the magical designer he claimed he was. At this time he was a rock star

 

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9 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

You might want to give that timeline a little stroll. 

First, DC won the Cup in Feb and NZ did not send a Challenge till July of the same year.  That is hardly a surprise, but it was within the rules of the Deed.  NZ had the right to challenge in any boat and if you read the timeline, they gave Bruce Farr 3 days to design a 90' boat  so it was not like he had one in his pocket.

Second, once the challenge was presented at least two syndicates jump on right away and at the end of the year, there were at least 8 wanting to take up the challenge.

The whole time this is going on DC and the SDYC are dicking in the courts to try and stop what was a legal challenge and one that others were willing to join in on.

Third, read on further, NZ was willing to give extra time for the US Defender to design and build a matching boat and time and time again DC and his cronies pushed it off.

Dennis Connor and the SDTA acted like dicks throughout the whole set up to the moment they announced they were going to race a Cat.  Then they just looked like assholes.

They were given a proper challenge that they could have straight up accepted or denied and given up the Cup.
They were given plenty of time to design and build a defender boat and instead they delayed and obstructed till some ethically challenged dick figured two 45' hulls is 90ft so....na na na na na.
They had 8 challengers interested which would have made for one hell of a visual spectacle for racing and even if they offered Hawaii as the race location, Fey would have agreed, knowing it would be a fantastic venue for such boats.  

End of the day, the US had a choice to take a high road and attempt to beat Fey with his own boat type and show US technology  and sailing was superior or do what they did, shit all over the Spirit of the Cup.  Connor jsut gave the blueprint for his little pissant protege Russell Coutts.  Both who embraced win at any cost, even if its the deconstruction of an Icon.

Remember, MBBC issued a "Deed of Gift" challenge and in no part of the deed does it mention multiple challenges. So, MBBC wanted a pure DoG match and they got one. Had they issued a modern day challenge offering a multi-challenger event then they would have had a leg to stand on. They screwed-up their challenge plain and simple.

Fay felt he had a hot team and did not want to lose that advantage. Also all the 'glass gate' stuff left him pissed-off and he wanted to put one to DC and SDYC. Sometimes you have to be careful what you ask for. Also bad karma coming back at him for wanting to train with the Kookas and help the defender instead of sticking with the challengers, all for selfish reasons of a Cup match in Freo was better for Fay than a Cup in SD.

Like WH said, there was enough BS all around for everybody, this killed the momentum coming out of Freo after '87. Fay could have kept his powder dry and might have had a winning hand if he had let things run their course..

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2 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

. Also bad karma coming back at him for wanting to train with the Kookas and help the defender instead of sticking with the challengers, all for selfish reasons of a Cup match in Freo was better for Fay than a Cup in SD.

 

I remember that incident very well, it upset the Americans so much that pressure was put on the NZ Government via back channels. Because NZ is a democracy and citizens can tell the Government to go do a jump, the request went no where. The truth was American Pride was hurt after losing the cup and they were going to do anything required to get it back. After he won Dennis got a ticket tape parade in New York with a 100,000 people turning up.

So Dennis went from public enemy number one 1983 after losing the cup, to a real hero and loved by the public.  

He return home to San Diego and then after a short period that w#$ker Fay issues his challenge. &$#%% ......$#@##$.....sheepsh&^&%

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God it was fun. The day kz1 launched you could pretty much get across the harbour hoping from one boat to another. 

Very sad it is now just a hull. 

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30 minutes ago, rgeek said:

Interesting post mako. Thanks for that

Rgeek thanks for that.... its appreciated. After 2000, with a new wife, growing kids and a new country...... I sorta lost contact with the cup. I did go to Valencia to have a look, but I was in Spain for other reasons. Its kinda hard dredging this information up from my ageing brain. 

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3 minutes ago, PJB said:

God it was fun. The day kz1 launched you could pretty much get across the harbour hoping from one boat to another. 

Very sad it is now just a hull. 

Not only that if you were on North Head as I was, you would seen the sight of the hill being dive bombed a vampire jet and a p-51 Mustang. Ill never forget the sight of these planes flying lower and close to where I was standing at 400 mph.  I've been to plenty of war birds events since but nothing has ever matched that experience. You can thank health and safety rules for that. 

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13 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Rgeek thanks for that.... its appreciated. After 2000, with a new wife, growing kids and a new country...... I sorta lost contact with the cup. I did go to Valencia to have a look, but I was in Spain for other reasons. Its kinda hard dredging this information up from my ageing brain. 

I remember the drama about the plastic fantastic and  geniker. Though at the time DC was full of it for the same reason you have to grudgingly respect them for pulling the cat out of the bag.

Kz1 was amazing. Just made all the nonsense that went on around it all the more frustrating.

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Just now, rgeek said:

I remember the drama about the plastic fantastic and  geniker. Though at the time DC was full of it for the same reason you have to grudgingly respect them for pulling the cat out of the bag.

Kz1 was amazing. Just made all the nonsense that went on around it all the more frustrating.

It was an amazing time and some of the characters of that time dwarfed  the Jimmy Spithills or Grant Daltons of today. To be honest I have some sympathy for Dennis he wasn't a complete dictatorial leader and quite a few others had words in his ear. Not all that advise was the best. I do think he had a decent side to him, but sometimes his competitive side got the better of him. A remember a story about him and a space invader arcade game that got his attention. He stayed all day throwing quarters into it until he could get top score.

In the end Dennis put a lot more into the Americas Cup than he took out. He took it from a sport for Gentleman too a sport between nations. I doubt he will come to NZ with a syndicate but as an advisor he would be valuable.  I hope to see him again with his paintbrush and pictures of boats and I hope he brings his frigging cannon with him..it was cool

 

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9 hours ago, mako23 said:

What was going on in that press conference was a lengthy and protracted war on Farr.

Do you mean just from the '87 Challenge or some deeper IOR related stuff?

 

15 hours ago, rgeek said:

Some how I doubt blue arrow would of made the start line

Blue arrow blue my mind at the time, only got the briefest glimpse on TV news & before I really knew anything about sailing.

Still an amazing looking beast :wub:

6.jpg

Shame it broke :(

 

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Hoom in answer to your question I do not think Bruce Farr and Dennis Conner paths crossed before 1987 Fremantle, The creation of KZ3 and KZ5 might of been the first time Dennis began taking notes. I really do believe he believed the Kiwis were trying to cheat .....the story of the boat being lighter at both ends  KZ7 really seemed to create a fixation in his mind.  The people who cheated Farr and Bowler ....hence the hate

At the time I believed Dennis was playing games .........but now i believe he felt he was being cheated out of his chance of redemtion 

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4 hours ago, mako23 said:

Hoom in answer to your question I do not think Bruce Farr and Dennis Conner paths crossed before 1987 Fremantle, The creation of KZ3 and KZ5 might of been the first time Dennis began taking notes. I really do believe he believed the Kiwis were trying to cheat .....the story of the boat being lighter at both ends  KZ7 really seemed to create a fixation in his mind.  The people who cheated Farr and Bowler ....hence the hate

At the time I believed Dennis was playing games .........but now i believe he felt he was being cheated out of his chance of redemtion 

I think they saw a boat that was much like the others but it did not perform like the other 12's he was sailing against, going through the waves much better. This probably is what made them think the Kiwi boat was lighter in the ends. Most likely the Kiwi boats did not have all the lateral framing that DC's designers put in to keep it stiff for the waves and rig tensions they were placing on his boats, allowing for more ballast in the keel.

Then the rest went downhill from there...

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On 2017-7-18 at 7:11 PM, hoom said:

Watching this again now.

So tragic that neither boat got to race against a proper competitor, both such gorgeous amazing boats.

 

S&S really sandbagging much more obviously than I remember thinking last time I watched.

Maybe a bit of swell killing the flow & it was pretty light but pretty sure they could have been flying a hull most of the race if they actually tried.

 

The more things change the more they stay the same though: even back then Gary fucking Jobson making dumb calls, stupid unneccesary explanations of basics of sailing, live VMG being available but shown nowhere near enough to be useful, Pepsi trying to convince the current youth they prefer Pepsi...

Oh I remember ss just turning the boat directly into the wind and basically stopping.

Worst challenger and worst defender combining to make the worst A.C. I've ever seen. 

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18 hours ago, mako23 said:

Hoom in answer to your question I do not think Bruce Farr and Dennis Conner paths crossed before 1987 Fremantle, The creation of KZ3 and KZ5 might of been the first time Dennis began taking notes. I really do believe he believed the Kiwis were trying to cheat .....the story of the boat being lighter at both ends  KZ7 really seemed to create a fixation in his mind.  The people who cheated Farr and Bowler ....hence the hate

At the time I believed Dennis was playing games .........but now i believe he felt he was being cheated out of his chance of redemtion 

Either way he behaved like a total cunt.

I don't have any time for Fay either, but Dennis was so far out of line it makes Jimmy look like an angel.

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8 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Either way he behaved like a total cunt.

I don't have any time for Fay either, but Dennis was so far out of line it makes Jimmy look like an angel.

Yes I totally agree but he did create a wave of support for the kiwis back here in NZ. He gave us someone to hate like the heel in a wrestling show. I wonder how many AC fans were started off  watching the races just to see the prick lose. We all loved to hate Dennis and boy did he play the part of the Villain well. When he wanted core sample from KZ-7 it was like he was attacking us individually.  I believe he made the Americas cup more popular here in NZ. In the end he did us a favour, however didn't feel like it at the time.I would have a beer with the man. As for the back stabbing five, no way even now 

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Dennis seemed to have a very erratic sense for when cheating was going on back then. I think it was in Comeback where he wrote that Australia II was too fast to be a legal 12 Metre and that he knew it because he had such an incredibly well honed sense for how fast a legal 12 could go.  Funnily enough, the same incredibly fine senses did not help him identify a cheating boat when he sailed ON one himself, as he did when he raced the Peterson IOR boat Acadia. 

 

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Someone asked the question on here a month or two ago as to whether Conner was a legend or a cunt.

I don't think it was an either/or answer as I believe he was both.

I'm not suggesting that he wasn't a decent person in his personal life, nor that he didn't do a lot of good for yachting generally.

But, his behaviour in '87 was simply outrageous. Yes, it made for enthralling television but it was still cunt behaviour.

You can argue that in '95 that he was a lot more sporting like, but then this is the same scenario as the last AC with Jimmy Spithill IMO.

That is, its a lot easier to act in a sporting manner when you are on the tail end of a flogging.

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"Someone asked the question on here a month or two ago as to whether Conner was a legend or a cunt.

I don't think it was an either/or answer as I believe he was both."

What on earth are you smoking today goober.

Dennis has given far more to the sailing world than your pea brain could ever begin to comprehend.

Fuck off somewhere dark and quiet and grow up idiot.

 

 

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Watching that footage, I've come to the conclusion that for any future Cup press conferences there must be a mandatory piss drinking session prior to sitting down and talking to the media. Those 80's pressers were fucking awesome compared to today's clinical corporate shit. Let's ban the high end fashion hand bag sponsors and mandate that teams can now only be sponsored by breweries. 

Nationality rules and booze, that is what will bring some fire back to the Cup.

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11 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

"Someone asked the question on here a month or two ago as to whether Conner was a legend or a cunt.

I don't think it was an either/or answer as I believe he was both."

What on earth are you smoking today goober.

Dennis has given far more to the sailing world than your pea brain could ever begin to comprehend.

Fuck off somewhere dark and quiet and grow up idiot.

 

 

Boohoo. Did I upset your precious sensibilities. 

If you can honestly state that you don't believe he acted like a cunt in 87 you need to check your moral compass.

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12 hours ago, Oscar Whitbread said:

Watching that footage, I've come to the conclusion that for any future Cup press conferences there must be a mandatory piss drinking session prior to sitting down and talking to the media. Those 80's pressers were fucking awesome compared to today's clinical corporate shit. Let's ban the high end fashion hand bag sponsors and mandate that teams can now only be sponsored by breweries. 

Nationality rules and booze, that is what will bring some fire back to the Cup.

Perfect

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When I've read stories about '88 the assumption seems to be that in the absence of Fay's challenge the next cup would have been in '91 in 12 Meters. Is that generally considered to be true? I wonder how many more cycles the 12s would have gone for.

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28 minutes ago, Sisu3360 said:

When I've read stories about '88 the assumption seems to be that in the absence of Fay's challenge the next cup would have been in '91 in 12 Meters. Is that generally considered to be true? I wonder how many more cycles the 12s would have gone for.

Its hard to predict what would of happen. Part of the problem is that weather can be tame in San Diego and compared to Fremantle the 12 Meters would be boring to watch

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Our research team found this interesting. The comparison between the 1988 and 2017 cats. WOW!

http://chevaliertaglang.blogspot.com/2012/06/americas-cup-1988-stars-stripes.html

Also the famous 1988 cat photo in Biscayne Bay, FL. No date but it's painted blue.

https://catamaranguru.com/lifestyle/news-events/dennis-conner-s-1988-catamaran-stars-stripes-in-biscayne-bay

Do you think this is the 'Real Deal?'

Stars & Stripes (H3) was bought by Mark Reece in Naples, Florida. Could not verify that.

Still looking for a good video.  ABC & CBS sports can't find anything.

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1 hour ago, Heather Travel said:

Our research team found this interesting. The comparison between the 1988 and 2017 cats. WOW!

http://chevaliertaglang.blogspot.com/2012/06/americas-cup-1988-stars-stripes.html

Also the famous 1988 cat photo in Biscayne Bay, FL. No date but it's painted blue.

https://catamaranguru.com/lifestyle/news-events/dennis-conner-s-1988-catamaran-stars-stripes-in-biscayne-bay

Do you think this is the 'Real Deal?'

Stars & Stripes (H3) was bought by Mark Reece in Naples, Florida. Could not verify that.

Still looking for a good video.  ABC & CBS sports can't find anything.

You can see another pic of this S&S cat in Southwinds Magazine when it was kept in a boat lift on the Manatee River in Bradenton, FL. I have sailed a handful of times when it raced here on Tampa Bay and to Key West and it was definitely pretty fast, even in a drifter start where it went by us like we were sitting still, literally.

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