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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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carcrash

Olson 40 Euphoria - Total Refit at Finco

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My wife bought me this boat for my 60th birthday. My friend Steve Brown and his excellent crew at Finco Fabrication, in Santa Ana CA, has done all the work. Here is a video from Wednesday, July 12 2017. I had been gone on a road trip for almost 4 weeks, and I was and continue to be very, very happy with the work done.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/343igr7tpc7cyth/IMG_2887.MOV?dl=0

All the workers are very proud of what they are doing, they were very excited to show it off.

On deck, what looks to be inconsistent color of the deck is just because most of the boat is covered by a sun shade which is netting. The color is perfect. All the paint and varnish is amazingly well done. Even things like the inside of the lazarette, underneath the bunks, and inside the man overboard tubes in the transom have been sanded smooth, painted, and, wherever its gloss, has been wet sanded to a mirror finish.

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Here are some photos, for those who are annoyed by the video production quality.

These three exterior shots show that the damage from the fatal accident a few years ago is perfectly repaired. Nobody can see where the V shaped hole was: most of the boat between the aft port stanchion and pushpit. Even using the reflections in the topside paint, its not at all detectable. Nobody has been able to identify where the damage happened, even if I show them exactly where it was.

Also, note how shiny the Olson 30 is next door. Mine is as shiny, but its dirty right now.

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The shaft, log, strut, and prop are all new. The strut is much stronger than original.

We have filled in several through hulls: that is where the bottom paint is much darker.

There was a bit of rot in the balsa near the strut, so that was fixed and strengthened inside and out. Also, there was about a half inch of rotten core around the hole cut for the depth sounder transducer. This transducer hole was just cut into the glass, leaving the core exposed, and then the thru-hull wrenched tight. When I removed the transducer, I was dismayed that the exposed core was complete mush, about the same consistency as mashed potatoes. Yet when we dug into it, the water had migrated only a half inch into the balsa! Perfectly dry and stiff core beyond that half inch. Cleaned out the rot, and laid fresh glass to make a proper, strong repair.

Soon, will install all the new Forespar Marelon through hulls, and a single tri-ducer (speed, depth, temp).

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Here are some deck pictures.

We removed everything off the deck, and almost nothing is going back on. The deck layout will be much closer to a 1D35 or Farr 40 than to an IOR boat from 1983. There were very many holes: instruments, the Navtec 4-way hydraulic panel, speakers, track, traveller, pad eyes, winches, turning blocks, running backstay blocks, antennae, anchor windlass, and so on.

Then the entire deck was sanded, all the holes ground, glassed, and sanded again, all the big holes (instrument, windlass, hydraulic panel, speakers) filled with foam core and covered with glass.

Then the entire deck has been painted with awl grip with the special grit additive so it could all be sprayed. All the white has been wet sanded and polished. Note the reflections in the white paint. Note those crisp paint lines, every single one perfect.

Again, the sun shade over the boat, so necessary in this hot summer, causes the weird shadows on deck. The color is perfectly consistent grey and white.

This looks so much better than Kiwi Grip its just not funny.

Also, all the windows and hatches have brand new plastic. The hatches aft of the cockpit have not been re-installed yet, to avoid damage as we climb over them every time we get on or off the boat via the ladder at the transom.

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The interior is really amazing. I was overcome when I saw it. Beautiful!

There are just a few little things left on this phase: paint the icebox lid, a bit of between coat sanding and a couple more coats on the new storage unit that replaces the chart table, and a couple of new pieces of wood that still need varnish, and the door and step to the chain locker just need to be installed -- they are done and look great.

Everything has been sanded, ground smooth, repainted with a very light grey gel coat, and the bits that should be shiny were then wet sanded and polished.

All the wood was sanded and varnished.

Note the paint lines.

Under the port settee where a water tank and 2 of the T105 batteries will live; the port upper pilot berth, looking aft, and then looking forward at the port side galley

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We took out the useless chart table. Who uses paper charts anymore? It was a really, really good chart table back in the day. But I prefer to navigate using my iPad etc. The table was also great back in the day because it was a tight fit, which was useful when plotting. But it was such a tight fit that it was very difficult to use that space in any other way: almost impossible to get a cooler under the table for example.

So we removed the chart table and built storage, following the design ethos of Santa Cruz. Lots of storage right over the keel.

 

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The head is ready for the Raritan Elegance fresh water flush electric head.

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We stripped out the bow, and added a chain locker aft of the foredeck hatch, just forward of the head, to starboard. That will move the weight aft, put the windlass in a position where a winch handle can really be used if needed, and it ensures all that nasty gunk on the chain stays separate from the bilge. A little bilge pump goes in the bottom of the chain locker.

The door and a step, to make it easier to get out the foredeck hatch, are beautifully finished and about to be installed.

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Even the lazarette, and under the aft berths aft of the engine, are beautifully done.

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Good question, By the Lee.

Where, and in what conditions, have you experienced oil canning on an Olson 40?

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Never been on an Olson 40. Never been on any Olson.

Someone once told me all those Olson's were super lightly built, and, having to wear beams and jock-straps and all, I just assumed that oil canning would be an issue.            

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Nicely done- clean, simple.... and light weight!  Did they have to replace much of the wood or did it just clean up?  Veneer?

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Beautiful job Crash, great boats and your's will be much improved over an already wonderful sailing machine.

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Beautiful job Steve's shop is doing, you and your family are gonna have a blast!

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15 hours ago, By the lee said:

Never been on an Olson 40. Never been on any Olson.

Someone once told me all those Olson's were super lightly built, and, having to wear beams and jock-straps and all, I just assumed that oil canning would be an issue.            

The 30s certainly seem to gain from the beams and straps. The 40 is pretty light too, but here is how the chainplates tie into the boat. At the deck there is a big burly block of SS. Three U bolts go through the deck for the shrouds. A tie rod comes down to a big burley SS plate that is through bolted to a big, thick, stiff longitudinal vertical stringer that is glassed to athwartship keel floors and to three different brunzeel plywood bulkheads. So the load is spread out along multiple structural features.

I already mentioned above that the increased load from the bulb keel did cause problems with the keel floors, which have been greatly strengthened (and proven by some local SoCal sailing prior to the refit.). There was no sign of any structural issues with any other structural components in the boat anywhere: no cracks in any tabbing, in any plywood, in any stringer or frame, and very limited areas of any balsa core rot. So structurally, it seems solid.

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15 hours ago, boatcat65 said:

Nicely done- clean, simple.... and light weight!  Did they have to replace much of the wood or did it just clean up?  Veneer?

The boat will be much lighter than it was! We have removed hundreds of pounds of stuff, and the changes added about 40 lbs. The deck equipment and systems are much lighter than what we took out.

The wood looked pretty beat up -- this was a well used 34 year old race boat!

We did add some non-structural wood to cover the forward ends of both quarter berths, as those panels were perforated by rough cut holes.

The floor boards were trashed. The old floorboards are still in the boat and therefore in all these pictures. The new floorboards are about 150% as thick, so stiffer to walk on, and will also be covered by Lonseal vinyl that looks like teak and holly. That stuff holds up well, cleans up well, and provides good non-skid, better than varnished floors.

Otherwise, sanding and varnishing has worked to bring it all back.

We've also already varnished the wood bits related to the headliner, and the extension settee berth bottoms, and the new floorboards. Those things won't go back aboard until we are pretty close to being finished.

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22 hours ago, carcrash said:

Good question, By the Lee.

Where, and in what conditions, have you experienced oil canning on an Olson 40?

I've never seen an O40 oil can, but that one did bend fore and aft a bit. 

The work looks great, but I miss the big nav station! The boat always had plenty of storage.

When do we get to see the massive bowsprit - are you cutting through the hull or is it a deck mount?

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Could you post photos of the bilge area/floors ?

 

Congrats for a fine project !

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Ah..... a vote for Lonseal vinyl.  Looking at replacing the flooring in a boat we've got.  Although I have some reservations with the esthetic of the stuff in the end I think it wins when all is considered.  85% of the way to yes.  How are you finishing the edges of your floorboards?

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The Awlgrip/Awltek decks look great.  If you are going to spend the time and grind the old non-skid off, that is a great way to go.  Love the clean paint lines, too.

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Thanks for starting this thread.  Nice boat.

Not the original keel?  Was the keel structure beefed up at some point?

Oh, and what yard is it at?

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Thanks for sharing the project & all of the many stages.   That's a great base to start from - the boat coming out this way,  or staying-put ?

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2 minutes ago, dkrowe said:

It looks like a Transpac 2019 Olson 40 run is in order.  

Buena Vista (Ventura) might go. 

Yes sir, that's the plan.

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2 hours ago, O40_77885 said:

Yes sir, that's the plan.

My daughter, who has been asking to do Transpac, said, "Absolutely!"

Let's do this!

 

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On 7/15/2017 at 6:43 PM, sunseeker said:

That's really awesome. Great work, and you have wife of the year.

Lisa is the best! I am still amazed after 30 years!!

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On 7/16/2017 at 5:53 PM, plenamar said:

Could you post photos of the bilge area/floors ?

 

Congrats for a fine project !

I should have swept the bilge before taking these pictures. Each of the floors have been built up, the keel stub is gone, big fat keel bolts as widely spaced as possible, through beefy washers or backing plates. The mast step is currently out of the boat. Its a simple, thick piece of wood with an aluminum shoe that matches the (original) Ballenger spar, and will be fastened down to these floors. The aluminum pole in the picture goes up through the hole in the deck for the mast to be one of the many supports for the sun shade. The floorboards in the picture are the old boards.

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On 7/16/2017 at 5:28 PM, _DB said:

I've never seen an O40 oil can, but that one did bend fore and aft a bit. 

The work looks great, but I miss the big nav station! The boat always had plenty of storage.

When do we get to see the massive bowsprit - are you cutting through the hull or is it a deck mount?

Did you sail on this boat?

As a chart table, I also really liked that big old nav station! It was a REALLY good one.

But now, I and very many others never ever use paper charts. I use Navionics and iNavX on my laptop and iPad. For me, I find this approach results in much better, newer charts, much easier to find the proper chart, much easier to switch between charts (zoom!) to see different stuff in the immediate area, or in the larger scheme of things. Ability to look at the charts while negotiating a channel, harbor, lagoon, etc. AIS overlay. Weather overlay. And so on, etc etc etc. So the table was obsolete.

The amount of storage required for voyaging is much more than needed for local offshore racing. Lots of moderate sized compartments that are close to the CoG and easy to access is useful. We were originally going to expand the galley to both sides, and the storage is convenient to the galley so will probably be used as a pantry. The top shelf is specifically intended for cocktail related items.

A few more coats of varnish!

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1 hour ago, carcrash said:

Did you sail on this boat?

As a chart table, I also really liked that big old nav station! It was a REALLY good one.

But now, I and very many others never ever use paper charts. I use Navionics and iNavX on my laptop and iPad. For me, I find this approach results in much better, newer charts, much easier to find the proper chart, much easier to switch between charts (zoom!) to see different stuff in the immediate area, or in the larger scheme of things. Ability to look at the charts while negotiating a channel, harbor, lagoon, etc. AIS overlay. Weather overlay. And so on, etc etc etc. So the table was obsolete.

The amount of storage required for voyaging is much more than needed for local offshore racing. Lots of moderate sized compartments that are close to the CoG and easy to access is useful. We were originally going to expand the galley to both sides, and the storage is convenient to the galley so will probably be used as a pantry. The top shelf is specifically intended for cocktail related items.

A few more coats of varnish!

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Yes - I raced on that boat a bunch (and a few other Olsons). 

It'll be really interesting to see her with a sprit!

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1 minute ago, _DB said:

Yes - I raced on that boat a bunch (and a few other Olsons). 

It'll be really interesting to see her with a sprit!

We are just about to do everything related to the sprit, so will have photos soon.

For the sprit we will take the spinnaker pole and its car, mount the car on the deck just forward of the forestay fitting, and provide sufficient dyneema stays to hold it up (from bow pulpit down to the pole), hold it down against code zero headstay tension (from pole down to a hole in the bow), and keep it centerline (from pole to sides of boat at toerail).

The loads are the same as when the pole is on the mast: the whiskers to the side have the same load as after guys. Using various scantling and yacht rule codes and other rules, its about 1500 lbs of pull in the direction of the sail, or about double that if trying to go to windward (headstay tension added to tension due to the tack). The loads are a function of righting moment, not location of the tack or sail area.

The angle from end of pole to where the whiskers are on the gunwale, just forward of the mast, is 9 degrees, which is a good angle, same as shroud angles. The other angles are 12 degrees or better.

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5 hours ago, Great Red Shark said:

Ah,  so we will be seeing your boat here afterall.  I'll look forward to shopping for the arrival party Mai Tais..

Looking forward to doing the proper blessing of the boat once we get her home to WYC.

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1 hour ago, JasonSeibert said:

I'm hoping to upgrade my Olson 30 to an Olson 40 in time for that race!

Better start fertilizing heavy right now.

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15 hours ago, JasonSeibert said:

I'm hoping to upgrade my Olson 30 to an Olson 40 in time for that race!

Well there's a few for sale to choose from, and we need someone to play with.

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21 minutes ago, O40_77885 said:

Well there's a few for sale to choose from, and we need someone to play with.

The only one I've seen is in San Diego, Pohono. Are there any others?

 

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On 12/9/2017 at 11:20 AM, O40_77885 said:
On 12/9/2017 at 9:34 AM, JasonSeibert said:
On 12/9/2017 at 9:13 AM, O40_77885 said:

Well there's a few for sale to choose from, and we need someone to play with.

The only one I've seen is in San Diego, Pohono. Are there any others?

 

They may have given up, there had been 3 or 4 for sale for year's. Uprorious and Ono were available as well as phono.

Olson 40 is a good choice for anyone wanting some mid sized performance in PHRF.
The only issue in up-sizing is sail costs go up exponentially along with everything else.
Minimum of 6 and in a regatta 8 crew are needed.

If my bank account were bigger, I'd look for a 40.

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2 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

 

 

Olson 40 is a good choice for anyone wanting some mid sized performance in PHRF.
The only issue in up-sizing is sail costs go up exponentially along with everything else.
Minimum of 6 and in a regatta 8 crew are needed.

If my bank account were bigger, I'd look for a 40.

If anyone the contact info for Ono or Uprorious, I wouldn't mind reaching out to find out what their intentions are. Thanks in advance.

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To avoid the huge $$ hit for sails I am going quite modern, taking queues from the Mini 6.50 people. The main exists, is a normal pin head made with GPL so carbon/spectra laminate. Probably going to add full battens to it, for more tame handling while cruising. Lots of old sails, but they will only be used while we do some experiments.

Here is the current plan. Brush fires last week prevented me from visiting Finco to observe progress, but I expect this welding and bobstay fittings have been done, or will be done any day now.

As mentioned before, I've removed all the symmetric spinnaker gear from the boat and mast. The carbon spinnaker pole will be used as a bow sprit, so SPL will be about 30' (15' + 15'), as on a Mini for example. Basically, one of the SS dildo-pin cars is being welded to the oversized and thick SS tack plate that is already needed just for the anchor roller. So the pole will carry ONLY compression loads, making it dramatically lighter than one that carries sideways loading, such as a typical TP52 or J boat sprit -- its about a quarter the weight of one of those bolted on sprits that is a quarter the length. The pole will be kept in position by: 2 up hauler lines that go from mid-pole to the bow pulpit; 2 pairs of whiskers that go from the gunwale near the mast to the middle and forward end of the pole; 2 bob stays from just above the boot top to the middle and forward end of the pole. The whiskers and bobstay to the end of the pole maintain better than 10 degree angles, so about the same load as a normal after guy. The pole can swing to port so it can be more easily stowed or deployed, but is kept centerline when sailing.

This pole will enable flying downwind sails from the forward end of the pole, maximizing the leverage of the upward force of the sails, thereby (hopefully) lifting the bow to avoid the all too common submarine effect.

So I'll end up with a suite of sails as follows, with details determined based on experiments using old existing sails:

1) Mainsail, pinhead, fully battened, cars on strong track, made from GPL (mostly 10, 14 in the corners) Carbon-Spectra laminate, radial panel layout.

2) A3, flying from the pole end, probably straight luff, top down furler, about 1200 square feet

3) Code Zero, fly from mid pole upwind, and from end of pole off the wind in heavy air, probably straight luff, top down furler, about 600 square feet

4) Lapper, a non-overlapping jib with clew about 4' to 6' off the deck, about 340 square feet, probably radial GPL, possibly Hydranet. May be able to use windward sheet instead of barber haulers to get modern sheeting angle (this is why clew is so high). Hanks.

5) Staysl, reefable, perhaps square top solent, perhaps fully battened, clew about same height as lapper, about 170 square feet, probably Hydranet. Same story with avoiding barber hauler. Hanks on removable inner forestay.

Clearly, I am not doing anything whatsoever with even the slightest concern towards rating. There is absolutely nothing in the world I care less about than ratings.

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10 minutes ago, carcrash said:

To avoid the huge $$ hit for sails I am going quite modern, taking queues from the Mini 6.50 people. The main exists, is a normal pin head made with GPL so carbon/spectra laminate. Probably going to add full battens to it, for more tame handling while cruising. Lots of old sails, but they will only be used while we do some experiments.

Here is the current plan. Brush fires last week prevented me from visiting Finco to observe progress, but I expect this welding and bobstay fittings have been done, or will be done any day now.

As mentioned before, I've removed all the symmetric spinnaker gear from the boat and mast. The carbon spinnaker pole will be used as a bow sprit, so SPL will be about 30' (15' + 15'), as on a Mini for example. Basically, one of the SS dildo-pin cars is being welded to the oversized and thick SS tack plate that is already needed just for the anchor roller. So the pole will carry ONLY compression loads, making it dramatically lighter than one that carries sideways loading, such as a typical TP52 or J boat sprit -- its about a quarter the weight of one of those bolted on sprits that is a quarter the length. The pole will be kept in position by: 2 up hauler lines that go from mid-pole to the bow pulpit; 2 pairs of whiskers that go from the gunwale near the mast to the middle and forward end of the pole; 2 bob stays from just above the boot top to the middle and forward end of the pole. The whiskers and bobstay to the end of the pole maintain better than 10 degree angles, so about the same load as a normal after guy. The pole can swing to port so it can be more easily stowed or deployed, but is kept centerline when sailing.

This pole will enable flying downwind sails from the forward end of the pole, maximizing the leverage of the upward force of the sails, thereby (hopefully) lifting the bow to avoid the all too common submarine effect.

So I'll end up with a suite of sails as follows, with details determined based on experiments using old existing sails:

1) Mainsail, pinhead, fully battened, cars on strong track, made from GPL (mostly 10, 14 in the corners) Carbon-Spectra laminate, radial panel layout.

2) A3, flying from the pole end, probably straight luff, top down furler, about 1200 square feet

3) Code Zero, fly from mid pole upwind, and from end of pole off the wind in heavy air, probably straight luff, top down furler, about 600 square feet

4) Lapper, a non-overlapping jib with clew about 4' to 6' off the deck, about 340 square feet, probably radial GPL, possibly Hydranet. May be able to use windward sheet instead of barber haulers to get modern sheeting angle (this is why clew is so high). Hanks.

5) Staysl, reefable, perhaps square top solent, perhaps fully battened, clew about same height as lapper, about 170 square feet, probably Hydranet. Same story with avoiding barber hauler. Hanks on removable inner forestay.

Clearly, I am not doing anything whatsoever with even the slightest concern towards rating. There is absolutely nothing in the world I care less about than ratings.

How big is the A3 compared to the standard Sym setup? 

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I would consider a Structural Furler for the Lapper.  That's still a large sail to have to go forward to take down.  

 

Trying to fly the Code Zero off the middle of the pole will be interesting.  That's a lot of load in the middle of a pole that was made to be in compression.  

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Raz'r: The A3 is a bit smaller than stock -- stock symmetrical is about 1350 sq ft.

Silent Bob: Hoisting and dropping **short LP** sails, with hanks, is easy. Especially if one does a semi-tack, where it just drops to the deck. Sure, need to lash it down.

The key thing is that an Olson 40 is a pretty powered up boat, with a SA/D in the mid 20s. So upwind and close reaching, without a stack of people on the rail, means 100%LP sails work great in the 8-20 knot regime. And short LP sails can hardly reach the water when you drop them if somewhat close hauled or closer to the wind. So just cut the halyard, then go forward and gather the sail into the leeward life lines. The short LP really makes hanks work well.

Leaving sails hoisted is REALLY bad for the sail -- bad shape from leech UV protection, UV decay on everything (including halyard, sheets, furler lines, etc). This has always seemed silly to me, as sails are used for sailing a tiny fraction of the time the sail will exist. Having furled sails up at anchor simply sucks, with the boat hunting, and substantial problems if a big blow comes through even if in a marina. So all sails over the deck will have cars (main) or hanks (jib and staysl). Rollers for sails flying from the sprit, which are generally dropped and stowed below when not flying.

When using furlers, one can be mistaken in thinking that furling and un-furling are simple, safe, easy operations. Its true for very small boats, but not so true as the boat gets bigger.

It takes some care on the furler lines when unrolling, which makes that effort not all that unlike dropping a hanked sail. And the work to furl a sail is not a lot different from the work required to hoist a sail with hanks. So the total up-down or in-out workload is similar, when everything is working nice and smoothly.

But furlers do mess up, on both unrolling and rolling. When they mess up, the danger to the crew, and the work required by the crew, is dramatically greater. So when the furler is working, its about the same work. When the furler is giving problems, then its a lot more work, and dangerous to the crew, equipment, and sails. As we all have seen. And these problems get worse the bigger the rig, and the more gnarly the conditions.

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30 minutes ago, silent bob said:

Trying to fly the Code Zero off the middle of the pole will be interesting.  That's a lot of load in the middle of a pole that was made to be in compression.  

When a sail is tacked to the middle of the pole, there is still a bobstay taking the vertical, and a pair of whiskers taking the lateral loads. So the pole continues to purely be in compression. It does not even take any torsional load: the pole can twist some, as much as necessary.

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Hmmm - I think you’ll be ok with just the lapper in 12 and above, but the boat has a lot of wettted surface area, so struggles with a 155 in under 10. 

You might want to consider adding a longer boom if you want to only sail with a 100%.

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And this one might have more wetted surface than stock -- the rudder is bigger. The keel might be a little less wetted surface.

In light air, perhaps 10 and under, I expect to use the Code Zero upwind.

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21 minutes ago, _DB said:

Hmmm - I think you’ll be ok with just the lapper in 12 and above, but the boat has a lot of wettted surface area, so struggles with a 155 in under 10. 

You might want to consider adding a longer boom if you want to only sail with a 100%.

What? No, in 10kts true that's 17-18 apparent. We're already on the #2-140. And my boat is much more stable than a stock Olson.

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2 hours ago, carcrash said:

And this one might have more wetted surface than stock -- the rudder is bigger. The keel might be a little less wetted surface.

In light air, perhaps 10 and under, I expect to use the Code Zero upwind.

There is no way that you will be on a code zero "upwind" in the range of 0-10 knots. Code Zeros's are not replacements for overlapping headsails when you're on the breeze <55twa

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I tried a zero on the breeze (solo) in 12 true and it knocked the boat flat, then backwards, then it took some doing to get it down despite the furler.

never again.

 

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1 hour ago, O40_77885 said:

What? No, in 10kts true that's 17-18 apparent. We're already on the #2-140. And my boat is much more stable than a stock Olson.

17-18 apparent in 10 true...what? If I ever see an Olson 40 doing 8-9 knots of BS upwind I will never sail again. 

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10 minutes ago, ASP said:

17-18 apparent in 10 true...what? If I ever see an Olson 40 doing 8-9 knots of BS upwind I will never sail again. 

Your math is off or your point angle is poor. We go to weather at 7.3-7.6@ 32-34° which brings a 10.0kt true to 16.7 apparent or 10.9kts true to 17.6

Guessing you're never sailing again, enjoy gardening...lol

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5 minutes ago, O40_77885 said:

Your math is off or your point angle is poor. We go to weather at 7.3-7.6@ 32-34° which brings a 10.0kt true to 16.7 apparent or 10.9kts true to 17.6

Guessing you're never sailing again, enjoy gardening...lol

7.3 to 7.6 in 10 knots of breeze at 32-34TWA? Time to recalibrate your instruments...

Farr 40 polars have it at 6.883BS at 40.4TWA in 10TWS...

I'll be maintaining my sailing habit thanks.

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18 hours ago, ASP said:

There is no way that you will be on a code zero "upwind" in the range of 0-10 knots. Code Zeros's are not replacements for overlapping headsails when you're on the breeze <55twa

While some not doing it may think it impossible, some may disagree, by doing it. This is what I'm expecting to do:

2017HotRumC1434.JPG

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11 minutes ago, carcrash said:

While some not doing it may think it impossible, some may disagree, by doing it. This is what I'm expecting to do:

2017HotRumC1434.JPG

I guess i would call that more of a J0 rather than a more common A0 or similar. 

That could work..better get the engineering right on the sprit. I know Madrona(Custom 40 footer in the PNW) has a similar sprit set up, like the minis. I believe Henderson Boat Works built the boat if you want to shoot them an email..Beiker may have also been involved IIRC

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35 minutes ago, ASP said:

I guess i would call that more of a J0 rather than a more common A0 or similar. 

That could work..better get the engineering right on the sprit. I know Madrona(Custom 40 footer in the PNW) has a similar sprit set up, like the minis. I believe Henderson Boat Works built the boat if you want to shoot them an email..Beiker may have also been involved IIRC

Yeah, that just looks like a jib on a sprit. 

 

A Code Zero - if we're using the term as defined, is a rule-beater and measures as a spinnaker, and really won't work for going upwind.  Close reaching yes. Since you don't care about rules, cut it like a jib and bob's yer uncle.

 

Here's North on the term:

https://northsails.com/sailing/en/resources/code-sails-defined

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On 12/11/2017 at 7:50 PM, carcrash said:

Raz'r: The A3 is a bit smaller than stock -- stock symmetrical is about 1350 sq ft.

Silent Bob: Hoisting and dropping **short LP** sails, with hanks, is easy. Especially if one does a semi-tack, where it just drops to the deck. Sure, need to lash it down.

The key thing is that an Olson 40 is a pretty powered up boat, with a SA/D in the mid 20s. So upwind and close reaching, without a stack of people on the rail, means 100%LP sails work great in the 8-20 knot regime. And short LP sails can hardly reach the water when you drop them if somewhat close hauled or closer to the wind. So just cut the halyard, then go forward and gather the sail into the leeward life lines. The short LP really makes hanks work well.

Leaving sails hoisted is REALLY bad for the sail -- bad shape from leech UV protection, UV decay on everything (including halyard, sheets, furler lines, etc). This has always seemed silly to me, as sails are used for sailing a tiny fraction of the time the sail will exist. Having furled sails up at anchor simply sucks, with the boat hunting, and substantial problems if a big blow comes through even if in a marina. So all sails over the deck will have cars (main) or hanks (jib and staysl). Rollers for sails flying from the sprit, which are generally dropped and stowed below when not flying.

When using furlers, one can be mistaken in thinking that furling and un-furling are simple, safe, easy operations. Its true for very small boats, but not so true as the boat gets bigger.

It takes some care on the furler lines when unrolling, which makes that effort not all that unlike dropping a hanked sail. And the work to furl a sail is not a lot different from the work required to hoist a sail with hanks. So the total up-down or in-out workload is similar, when everything is working nice and smoothly.

But furlers do mess up, on both unrolling and rolling. When they mess up, the danger to the crew, and the work required by the crew, is dramatically greater. So when the furler is working, its about the same work. When the furler is giving problems, then its a lot more work, and dangerous to the crew, equipment, and sails. As we all have seen. And these problems get worse the bigger the rig, and the more gnarly the conditions.

Crash,

  One note on the furlers, they save time spent on the foredeck in over 9/10 situations. That is crew weight in the wrong spot, and crew distracted working forward instead of tending to sail trim, navigation, tactics etc. I'll also argue that they are less physically demanding-the offshore solo sailors would be using hanks if they were better tech. To me, the only reason NOT to use furlers is cost and maybe weight.

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22 hours ago, ASP said:

I guess i would call that more of a J0 rather than a more common A0 or similar. 

That could work..better get the engineering right on the sprit. I know Madrona(Custom 40 footer in the PNW) has a similar sprit set up, like the minis. I believe Henderson Boat Works built the boat if you want to shoot them an email..Beiker may have also been involved IIRC

Thanks for the heads up, ASP. I'll reach out to them.

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22 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Yeah, that just looks like a jib on a sprit. 

 

A Code Zero - if we're using the term as defined, is a rule-beater and measures as a spinnaker, and really won't work for going upwind.  Close reaching yes. Since you don't care about rules, cut it like a jib and bob's yer uncle.

 

Here's North on the term:

https://northsails.com/sailing/en/resources/code-sails-defined

Right: I'm using the term for for how the sail is used, rather than specific racing rule beating distortions. As I'm sure you probably know, much of the cloth added to the sail to meet the 75% rule is often just flapping in the breeze. I'm using the term like North is using the term for the OD sails they build for the VOR65s, which AFAIK also ignore the 75% stipulation.

Since we are ignoring the rule beating "75% mid girth", the better name is what they were originally called: Screecher. Just a big masthead jib tacked to a sprit, made from light cloth and intended for anything from close hauled in very light breeze to a VMG deep running ayso when the breeze kicks up. Tack to end of pole unless lee helm (light air upwind) where one slides the tack aft perhaps as far as mid pole.

And, as with the VOR65 which does not carry an A1, A2, A4, etc but still calls its big "go deep" sail an A3 -- which again is triangular -- I don't have a better name. Big screecher? Always to the end of the pole.

We originally used names from history: flying jib, outer jib, jib, staysl.

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45 minutes ago, carcrash said:

Right: I'm using the term for for how the sail is used, rather than specific racing rule beating distortions. As I'm sure you probably know, much of the cloth added to the sail to meet the 75% rule is often just flapping in the breeze. I'm using the term like North is using the term for the OD sails they build for the VOR65s, which AFAIK also ignore the 75% stipulation.

Since we are ignoring the rule beating "75% mid girth", the better name is what they were originally called: Screecher. Just a big masthead jib tacked to a sprit, made from light cloth and intended for anything from close hauled in very light breeze to a VMG deep running ayso when the breeze kicks up. Tack to end of pole unless lee helm (light air upwind) where one slides the tack aft perhaps as far as mid pole.

And, as with the VOR65 which does not carry an A1, A2, A4, etc but still calls its big "go deep" sail an A3 -- which again is triangular -- I don't have a better name. Big screecher? Always to the end of the pole.

We originally used names from history: flying jib, outer jib, jib, staysl.

Volvo boats can also get away with flatter sails because in anything over 12 knots they're pushing quite a bit of apparent forward. More than 17 knots and the breeze really cranks forward, your Olson 40 will not be generating apparent at comparable levels to a Volvo boat. On a significantly faster 40 footer I race on we have found that it is almost always faster to hold on to an A4 or A6 soft luft kite before going to the MHO or FRO unless we're pretty tight reaching (<125twa)..

I can understand the J0 on a sprit that sheets inside the shrouds like the SRM pic above. Put it on a furler, and and it's an easy to use shorthanded sail for light air upwind, or heavy air reaching. Past that.. I don't see you getting away with straight luffed downwind sails. 

If you're looking to exclusively race the boat shorthanded, borrowing from the Class 40 is a slightly more comparable angle. They still run soft luff kites and have either top down furlers or spinnaker socks... shoot me a pm if you want to further discuss some shorthanded optimization I have done on a variety of boats..

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I agree an Olson 40 is nothing like a modern very high RM boat like a VOR 65 or Class 40. This one does have a bulb keel and less weight aloft, which may have reduced VCG by a couple of feet. An Olson does not have the hard turn of the bilge of modern boats, so will have substantially less stability at 20 or 30 degrees of heel and therefore will not carry the apparent forward anywhere near as well as a more modern boat.

I will not be surprised at all if we do need to go for a kite with significant area forward of the top-down-furler cable. I hope not, and will do experiments to see how well straight luffs work, but this boat may well be too slow for VOR65 or multihull sail shapes. But, perhaps close enough for cruising and fun.

I have had some good discussions with a friend who built and campaigned three Class 40s (Team Concise). The speed of those boats is so far beyond what I expect to achieve with this Olson 40! But I agree, there seems to be a lot to learn.

This is a cruising and fun boat, which means that even when their might be many people aboard, few will be fast sailors. Hence, getting speed that is fun without a lot of work, while minimizing risk of injury, is the key target on this project. Absolute max speed in corners of the envelope are of little concern. Being able to point high in moderate conditions, sure. Being able to point very high in very light, and therefore often sloppy, conditions is not a huge concern. Being able to blast reach, and surf and plane off the wind is very important and will certainly be achieved.

Exactly how we will achieve everything -- who knows. Like I said, we will do experiments.

I was surprised at how we could spin out, round up, a MORC boat even with the normal symmetric chute sorta oddly rigged to a rather bogus 75% of J sprit. Less than with it rigged normally, but even with the long sprit, weather helm at high heel angles still overpowered the rudder. I did not expect that. That's why experimentation is so important, when really doing something so far out of the box. MORC boats are kinda round tubs, with no natural directional stability, unlike an Olson. But those experiments made it clear that very long sprits can help!

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