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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
pcbguy

30 Ft. Solid Cruiser

71 posts in this topic

I have been sailing my Catalina 25 for over a decade and am looking for a 30 ft with diesel -- on a beer budget in "good" condition. Under consideration are the Catalina 30, Pearson 30 and Islander 30 as it appears they could fit within my budget. I have seen some very well maintained Pearson 30's but all reviews seem to characterize them as being very "tender" sailboats. The Catalina 30's in my price range seem to be semi-project boats. The Islanders are all over the place. As a mostly single hand sailor the Pearson seems very tempting and I know the "bones" will be solid. I am seeking input about each as a boat options for someone who will be sailing solo most of the time -- thoughts?

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What do you want it for? Mostly daysailing or overnighting? Cruising for days or weeks at a time? Racing?

Makes a big difference.

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I'm guessing that you are looking at well under $10K.   At that point for a 30 foot boat it is going to be all about the boats condition.  Fixing up a boat can easily be far more expensive than buying a more expensive boat already in good condition.

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I don't know what you've seen, but I would have guessed that, as a value proposition, a Catalina 30 would be a good choice. They were not especially expensive to buy, and the construction is pretty reliable. Not totally reliable though. 

Sabre's are a better boat. https://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/boa/d/sailboat-sabre-yacht-mark/6217893811.html

But here is the problem. You can buy the boat you want for about $20K in "everything's working" condition and several years left on the diesel. Any boat that you see that's cheaper has things about it that make them worth less than that. In other words, it has some kind of delayed expense.You are talking about a boat for which new working sails, if needed, might be half of the asking price. A new diesel might be more than the asking price. So, if you can't afford the price of a boat in working order, maybe you can't afford a boat of that description at all.

I bought a Hunter 28 for a bit over $20K and put another $10K into it over the next two years, mostly for sails and sailing gear. I could have spent less, but....

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I bought a Hunter 31 for $8K, put $4k and a few hundred hours of work (O/K, maybe a thousand) into it and it needed very little more when I sold it for a profit - new seacocks being the biggie. A big chunk of my time & expense went into a longboarded and Interprotected bottom and iron keel.  As with all boats I could have spent a bunch on electronics and so forth but as it was it was very usable and reliable.

If you choose wisely and can do all or most of the work yourself, nothing is cheaper than a cheap old boat.

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Sailed and raced on a Pearson 30 a bunch, and I wouldn't call it tender in any way...faster than a Cat 30 by about 9 sec/mile PHRF.  Cat 30 significantly "roomier" than the Pearson. Islander's PHRF rating about the same as the Pearson, and has more room then the Pearson, less than the Catalina.  One thing to look out for on any of the boats you are looking at is the age of the deck gear/ running rigging.  Early / mid 70s deck gear included wire halyards, stopper cleats, main sail reefing by "rolling" the sail up around the boom, etc.  Finding a boat that has had most of that stuff upgraded makes it much easy to adjust/reef/douse/trim/hoist/etc...making the sailing of the boat more enjoyable.

When looking for a beer-budget boat, getting the one in the best shape with the most upgrades probably matters more than anything else...

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If I were in your place I'd seriously consider the Tartan 30 as well. Granted, they usually came stock with an Atomic 4, but if you can live with that you would get a beautiful boat that sails better than any currently on your list while still being in your price range. 

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All good thoughts.

For some clarification: the sail boats I have owned have all been project boats, so I am quite aware of how projects expand and how every few years some need to be revised. The sailing will be primarily day sailing, some over-night harbor hopping. My budget target is @$12k -- which includes purchase, moving (if necessary) and improvements. I have friends who have done well in such a price range, examples being $5k for a Pearson Vanguard that was a one owner boat in impeccable condition albeit mostly original. He replaced the sails and rigging, added some basic electronics, and had the A-4 looked over and for well under $10k was in business. Ditto another friend had similar luck with a J-30.

So far the best "deals" have appeared to be Pearson 30's and Bristol 29/30's and Islander/Bahama 30's. The Sabre's I have looked into have been sold before I could see them. Not being a racer, I am not looking at J-boats. Have not looked at Tartans, but will add to my list. From past experience when looking my key areas of focus are Decks/moisture; mast-step/compression post; engine.  I assume (and am budgeting) the standing and running rigging will need replacement as well as sails early on, if not immediately.  

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J/29

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J-32 is a solid cruiser with decent livability and good performance

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13 hours ago, pcbguy said:

All good thoughts.

For some clarification: the sail boats I have owned have all been project boats, so I am quite aware of how projects expand and how every few years some need to be revised. The sailing will be primarily day sailing, some over-night harbor hopping. My budget target is @$12k -- which includes purchase, moving (if necessary) and improvements. I have friends who have done well in such a price range, examples being $5k for a Pearson Vanguard that was a one owner boat in impeccable condition albeit mostly original. He replaced the sails and rigging, added some basic electronics, and had the A-4 looked over and for well under $10k was in business. Ditto another friend had similar luck with a J-30.

So far the best "deals" have appeared to be Pearson 30's and Bristol 29/30's and Islander/Bahama 30's. The Sabre's I have looked into have been sold before I could see them. Not being a racer, I am not looking at J-boats. Have not looked at Tartans, but will add to my list. From past experience when looking my key areas of focus are Decks/moisture; mast-step/compression post; engine.  I assume (and am budgeting) the standing and running rigging will need replacement as well as sails early on, if not immediately.  

I owned a 1973 Bristol 30.   I was not very happy with itssailing attributes.   

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I raced quite a bit years ago on an Islander 30. It's a good sailing, roomy boat. Good looking too.

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41 minutes ago, Grey Dawn said:

J-32 is a solid cruiser with decent livability and good performance

It's a very nice boat - I have one myself.  But It's way beyond the OP's budget.

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18 hours ago, bjp said:

If I were in your place I'd seriously consider the Tartan 30 as well. Granted, they usually came stock with an Atomic 4, but if you can live with that you would get a beautiful boat that sails better than any currently on your list while still being in your price range. 

I'll second the Tartan 30, and also second the A4. Many boats of this vintage/size came with the Atomic 4, and if they've been upgraded to diesel that greatly affects price. If you're OK with that A4, then the field of candidate boats under $10K increases dramatically. I personally love my old A4. With simple basic maintenance it's ultra reliable, and if any attention is needed, it's such a simple engine it's a breeze to work on. Plus aftermarket parts are readily available at reasonable prices. Don't fear the Atomic Bomb!

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3 hours ago, Grey Dawn said:

J-32 is a solid cruiser with decent livability and good performance

Not for $12k delivered and in workable condition. They normally go for over $70k

A J/30 has a comfy enough interior for cruising though, and more space than a lot of boats mentioned so far. 

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There is a long thread about Ajax fixing up, racing, and cruising his Pearson 30. That would be good for you to read. 

I had a newer (mid 80s) Pearson and really liked how it sailed and how it was built, but don't have experience with the 70s designs.  It was a little too slow in light air to be fun to race around here, but otherwise a great little boat. 

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Okay, this is my topic, as just a few years ago I had a similar criteria and ended up with a great boat.  Here's what I considered, all sort of meeting your criteria except we had a performance requirement that it was PHRF race-able. 

Ranger 33 - great bone, quite old.  A friend of mine regrets the day he sold it.

Islander 30 - never sailed one, but had friends who loved theirs.

Pearson 10M - you can find some of these reasonably priced.  Better cruising boat than the 30, sleeps a lot of people, and not as tender.  I almost bought one of these,

Oday 30 (or Ranger 30 same boat)  - the 30 and 34 are good boats, particularly the 34, but that's out of your range, unless you find one with wet decks. Still might be worth it.

Seafarer 30 - too slow for me, similar performance to Catalina 30, but nice layout down below.

Catalina 30 - I like them, but prefer to have a boat that you like to look at when you row away. (ouch, sorry)

C&C 33 - great boats, not necessarily lots of $ 

C&C 30 - never liked that it didnt have a quarter berth, but great boat in a breeze they say.

Cal 31  - dont really know it but have heard good things.

Elan 31/ Kirie Elite 30 - we lucked into an Elan 31S. Love the aft head/aft cabin layout and the transom scoop.  Fun to race and cruise.

Hunters - 30, 31, and 33. As a kid I loved to hate them. But they're all still afloat, and look pretty good now, with good Yanmar engines.

Definitely let the engine quality steer your purchase priority.  Yanmar, Beta, Universal good. Atomic, volvo (expensive parts) bad.

Be patient, troll craigslist in areas near you, and you will get lucky! We essentially bought ours the day it was posted as we had looked at so many boats,and were prepared for the right boat to come along.

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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No love for the Nonsuch?  You won't find a roomier 30 footer or one that is easier to sail.

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45 minutes ago, curm said:

No love for the Nonsuch?  You won't find a roomier 30 footer or one that is easier to sail.

A lot of really great boats are being left out because they are way more than $10K in good condition.

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On 16/07/2017 at 9:30 AM, slap said:

I'm guessing that you are looking at well under $10K.   At that point for a 30 foot boat it is going to be all about the boats condition.  Fixing up a boat can easily be far more expensive than buying a more expensive boat already in good condition.

Oh my god, what he said.  I could be jerking off on an Express 37 right now but instead I decided to "save" a classic. fml.

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5 hours ago, cameron said:

Oh my god, what he said.  I could be jerking off on an Express 37 right now but instead I decided to "save" a classic. fml.

LMAO...   Cameron, what's the "classic?"

 

PCBguy-  Whatever you end up choosing, don't fret if it is equipped with an Atomic-4.  The A-4 is enjoying a nice little renaissance right now. Moyer Marine is casting new cylinder heads and blocks. They sell a variety of upgrades and improved aftermarket parts. The discussion forum is positively loaded with good people and technical advice. The staff at Moyer Marine are also incredibly helpful and they are not looking to sell you parts that you don't need.

You should be able to find something pretty decent between WLIS and the Chesapeake for $12k.

Hey, check this out: https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/boa/d/tartan-sailaway-now/6220502721.html

You know what's great about the T-30?  Engine access. The damn thing is sitting right in the cabin.

I believe I may also be able to hook you up with a reputable fellow selling an '80's Tartan 3000 in pretty decent shape that is totally within your budget.

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3 hours ago, Ajax said:

...Whatever you end up choosing, don't fret if it is equipped with an Atomic-4.  The A-4 is enjoying a nice little renaissance right now. Moyer Marine is casting new cylinder heads and blocks. They sell a variety of upgrades and improved aftermarket parts. The discussion forum is positively loaded with good people and technical advice. The staff at Moyer Marine are also incredibly helpful and they are not looking to sell you parts that you don't need.

+ 1 to what Ajax said! :D 

I have a 48 year old Atomic 4 in my old boat, and it has been an amazingly reliable engine. If I had to replace it tomorrow, I'd likely get a "new" Atomic 4 from Moyer.  It is smooth, quiet, doesn't have diesel smell, and many of the parts needed to maintain it can be purchased at the local auto-parts store for WAY below "marine" prices. The only downside is fuel economy - it burns about a gallon an hour. 

Anyway, when I bought my boat, the "common knowledge" was that I'd absolutely have to replace the old Atomic 4 with a diesel.  I simply decided to wait until it died before I re-powered. Well, eleven years later, it has not died. It has been a great engine for me. I love that little motor!

Engine cleaned

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Wow, a gallon an hour instead of a quart or two! Better spend $15K on a diesel quick.

The Atomic Bomb freaks people out because it's gas and they'll all die - especially if they have an offset companionway as well.

People forget that 90% of the boats out there are gas powerboats - how often to they blow up? Even within those tiny numbers, how often is it a propane galley explosion?

With the Moyer or Indigo upgrades - especially electronic ignition - an A4 is damn near as reliable as a diesel and a hell of a lot cheaper.

I'd be inclined to change all the fuel lines to braided stainless with AN fitting as well as the aforementioned upgrades.

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25 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Wow, a gallon an hour instead of a quart or two! Better spend $15K on a diesel quick.

It's not the price of the fuel that is the issue - it is the diminutive range that burning that much fuel produces.

My boat has a 14 gallon tank. I'm not inclined to replace it because the tank is made of Monel and should longer than the boat. But that tank married to an Atomic 4 gives me 14 hours of running time @ 5.5 knots - or 77 miles under power  ....except I'd never plan to run it dry, so I'm really looking at about 50 miles range under power.  That short range is perfectly fine for my predominate use of day-sailing, where the motor gets run for 15 minutes out, and 20 minutes back. But, when I go coastal cruising, I basically have a one daylight day's supply of motoring capability - unless I can find fuel along the way. But, if I had a diesel, I could motor from Punta Gorda non-stop to Key West on 14 gallons - and that would be huge. 

However, all it really requires is an attitude that says: This is a sailboat ..I will go where I can sail to. That is what I do - and I'm happy. I have gone cruising and my wife will ask: "Where are you headed?", and I will say: "Somewhere I can sail to!".  I don't do "motor-boat" cruises with my Atomic 4 too often - but most of the cruising groups around here cruise to a schedule and have no problem motoring anywhere and everywhere to get to where the schedule says they need to be. If I was hanging with them, a diesel would be a necessity. However, for me, cruising is less about the destination, and much more about the journey. I generally sail to places I can get to.  Motoring is not part of my plan - it is more of a contingency.  I love my Atomic 4 - but, sometimes, I do wish it was less thirsty. 

Anyway - to stay on track with the OP's topic: I heartily second Ajax's notion that one not automatically eliminate any boat with an Atomic 4 from consideration. Yes, they are old engines, and if neglected you may very well choose to pass on THAT boat.  But a good running, well-cared for, and regularly updated Atomic 4 is a fine engine to own - and enjoy. 40,000+ were installed in sailboats for more than two decades, and perhaps 15,000 of those are still running reliably today. 

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Lots of good counsel and boats on here already.

Laughing at the Atomic 4 comments.  God knows, folks love em or hate em.  Though I am in the hate em camp I think Tom is fair when he says the biggest difference is the range.

On the plus side I will name another Atomic 4 boat for the list that you can find cheap and go literally anywhere in... a classic "good ole boat" the Alberg 30.  Not my cuppa either as a cruiser but they are at least a bit on the prettier side of many mentioned in terms of "row away appeal."  And at least down Chesapeake way you can find some OD racing which I am a fan of!  Great owners association.

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A Bermuda 30 (Based on the H28) that had it's decks done would be quite desirable. Many have upgrades and are set up for single handed cruising. With a full keel draft under 4 feet - thinner waters and fishing lines wouldn't be a problem. Besides they are nice looking boats once squared away. 

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7 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

A Bermuda 30 (Based on the H28) that had it's decks done would be quite desirable. Many have upgrades and are set up for single handed cruising. With a full keel draft under 4 feet - thinner waters and fishing lines wouldn't be a problem. Besides they are nice looking boats once squared away. 

Nice boat for sure - but it is nearly three times the OP's budget.

If he found one within his budget, it would likely be closer to a "project" than a "ready to sail boat".

https://www.tradeboats.com.au/detail/bermuda-30-foot-ketch-88350

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20 minutes ago, Tom Scott said:

Nice boat for sure - but it is nearly three times the OP's budget.

If he found one within his budget, it would likely be closer to a "project" than a "ready to sail boat".

https://www.tradeboats.com.au/detail/bermuda-30-foot-ketch-88350

I don't know where the OP lives. Same boat here in San Francisco would be 8K. A friend bought one fixer for 4k five months ago - came with complement set of new sails with a another set of cruising sails, yanmar, radar, NavGPS & radio. weather and water tight and a recent bottom job. Needed to be varnished and cleaned. Also has a funky well built hard dodger with fine canvas which has grown on me.

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Here's one near San Francisco - perhaps somewhat of a project - and way above your 8K estimate.

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/49485

...another in Alabama - one of the last made (..with fiberglass decks)., but way over budget.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1970/Cheoy-Lee--3037278/Point-Clear/AL/United-States#.WW5UPIgrKUk

I think the Bermuda 30 is a good boat - but doubt you'll find a good one "for cheap" unless you are lucky.  If you find one "ready to go", it isn't cheap.  If you find one cheap, it needs a lot ($$$$) to be made ready to go. This is why I haven't recommended my boat to the OP - it pretty much has the same issue.  (..also, I infer that he thinks "tender" = "bad"<_<) Anyway, he could very well buy a Morgan 30 for cheap, but he sure won't enjoy sailing it very often, or long. And if he bought one that was "all ready to go", it would top his budget.

Frankly, too many people extend themselves to get more boat than they can afford to repair and maintain. Old boats always need something, and the "somethings" for a 30'er are more numerous and more expensive than they are on a 25'er. If money is tight, I'd really like to suggest he stay with his Catalina 25 and simply spend the money necessary to make it more suitable and enjoyable for his use - new sails can provide a tremendous improvement in performance. Maybe a new outboard that is more reliable would help so he won't envy those boats with a diesel?  New canvas? New rigging? Whatever it takes. To be clear, few if any upgrades to the Catalina 25 will dramatically improve the value of his boat - but they will make his boat more pleasant for his use, and still cost less than what he will spend (and lose) trying to refit almost any 30 footer. Mileages vary - I understand the desire for a bigger boat. But, beyond the purchase price, the additional costs seem to grow exponentially with size. And if you chose to not spend more money to keep up with it all, the boat quickly becomes a liability that can't readily be sold or - sometimes - even given away. 

 

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

Lots of good counsel and boats on here already.

Laughing at the Atomic 4 comments.  God knows, folks love em or hate em.  Though I am in the hate em camp I think Tom is fair when he says the biggest difference is the range.

On the plus side I will name another Atomic 4 boat for the list that you can find cheap and go literally anywhere in... a classic "good ole boat" the Alberg 30.  Not my cuppa either as a cruiser but they are at least a bit on the prettier side of many mentioned in terms of "row away appeal."  And at least down Chesapeake way you can find some OD racing which I am a fan of!  Great owners association.

Lots of them had Palmers, not A4's and that is a truly horrible antique engine with no parts availability.

An Alberg 30 had the heaviest weather helm I have ever experienced. An hour on the tiller on a broad reach in 20 knots was all anyone could take.

It made up for it by having no interior space to speak of.

It sure was pretty though.

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There are plenty of Alberg 30s in Annapolis, some with Yanmar diesels, and they have their own start on Wednesday nights. Not sure how livable one really is on a cruise but you can get a decent one for $12K or less. Love the way they look.

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Yea and I don't know what A30 sjb was on but with good trim you have neutral helm on any point of sail. Just control power so the boat does not heel excessively and they go nice. Not the most roomy I agree but families of 4 cruise them regular like around here and seem happy.

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If you want a 30-foot Alberg design for cruising, go with the Cape Dory.

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Gosh -- where do I start!  First regarding the A-4: I have friends who love 'em and some who hate 'em. My observation is that the engine is not the issue but more often than not an old fuel tank that badly needs a cleaning. I too am familiar with Moyer Marine and their available retrofit upgrades. My criteria is an auxiliary that is in "good working order" -- A4 or diesel. Regarding my Catalina 25: I love the boat and have done much to restore her from the derelict condition it was in. All new rigging, furler, sails, engine, cushions, bottom job, stations rebidded, winches, etc., etc. My issue is not necessarily size but having an inboard auxiliary. I am getting too old to hang over the transom messing with the engine and bracket (also new). One boat on the list is a Cat 27 -- but -- if I must say that if I am going to make a change I kind of want to make a CHANGE -- the 27 is too similar to the 25.

I read Ajax's thread on his P30 -- an informative read, and thanks' Ajax for the Tartan referral!  There are a couple in my area that I may be looking at. The P30 picked my interest as it appears a bit "smaller" than other 30 footers and for a solo sailor who lives on a mooring it just looks a bit easier to handle, and no keel bolts to worry about after 30--40 years of use -- or abuse.

And finally, I LOVE Alberg designs -- have owned a couple over the years, but, LOL, damned that Frank Butler spoiled me with more (and more efficient use of) space.

Will keep everyone abreast of where this journey leads me. . . . .

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The two of us have spent 3 1/2 months on our Tartan 30 over two summers in the PNW.

it has a newish diesel, can't speak highly enough of it as a no fuss reliable cruiser.

moves along too, under sail and motor, and room on the for deck for a 9' hard dinghy when we don't feel like towing it.

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If your Catalina 25 is the wing keel or fin keel version, I have seen one that have had an inboard saildrive installed as a retro-fit.  It would be expensive, but cheaper than a new boat. 

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Yes I have read on the C-25 owners forum about such retrofits, but the cost was north of $10k. Might make sense on a later model 89 TR/WK but not on my "weathered" 80 TR/FK. But the concept did look interesting

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My Catalina 25 with a modern Tohatsu 4 stroke engine got almost the same fuel economy as my Pearson 28-2 with an inboard diesel. I still greatly preferred the diesel (it was a less annoying racket and the prop never came out of the water), but I could never see spending lots of money to change to an inboard on a c-25.

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12 hours ago, Alex W said:

...I still greatly preferred the diesel (it was a less annoying racket and the prop never came out of the water), but I could never see spending lots of money to change to an inboard on a c-25.

..It was a suggestion because the OP said: "My issue is not necessarily size but having an inboard auxiliary. I am getting too old to hang over the transom messing with the engine and bracket"   For him, it could have made sense.

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PCBguy (the OP) mentions he will mostly single-hand the boat.  For that purpose look for a tiller and a small cockpit in which the sheets and traveler controls are within reach of the tiller.  Avoid running backstays.  Read Andrew Evans' "Thoughts, Tips, Techniques & Tactics for Singlehanded Sailing".

I've mostly single-handed my worn out 1972 Islander 30 for about 22 years and would recommend it, though if starting over I'd look for a later Bahama version.  They're a little lighter and have a taller mast.

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Andrew Evans read was a good one -- thanks for mentioning it. I am looking at the Bahama 30 as well. At this point it seems the P30, Tartan30, Bahama/Islander 30 and Cat-30 appear to potentially fit the budget and criteria. As this is the time of the season, at least in the Northeast, that people begin to think about winter storage costs, there are a couple of seemingly great options. But then again, the devil is in the detail so looking at them should be interesting! Also interesting is that a few other larger options have surfaced which while tempting, would not be feasible for solo sailing. 

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Yankee 30s always catch my eye. One for sale in Monterey for 16k, on Yachtworld. 

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Just a note. OP is in Western Long Island Sound. In this price range, boats outside reasonable delivery distance from LIS probably are not an option. 

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I like the looks of the Dufours. A lot of them are old enough that they are cheap enough. I think the original construction was good, though some may have iron keels and other maintenance considerations.

01212_8EGaz0FiFp0_600x450.jpg

https://newlondon.craigslist.org/boa/d/dufour-sloop/6183207797.html

And an even cheaper one of the same model:

https://newlondon.craigslist.org/boa/d/dufour-ready-to-go/6203162247.html

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4 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Just a note. OP is in Western Long Island Sound. In this price range, boats outside reasonable delivery distance from LIS probably are not an option. 

My bad, thought he was in San Francisco for some reason. :P

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On 2017-07-17 at 11:47 PM, curm said:

No love for the Nonsuch?  You won't find a roomier 30 footer or one that is easier to sail.

  If you find a Nonsuch for $10k it absolutely, positively, DEFINITELY has wet core...issues.  Think Skilsaw to half the hull wet core issues.

  They do check all the OP wants/needs, but they keep their value along with water in the balsa half of the hull.

On 2017-07-18 at 1:34 PM, Wess said:

Lots of good counsel and boats on here already.

Laughing at the Atomic 4 comments.  God knows, folks love em or hate em.  Though I am in the hate em camp I think Tom is fair when he says the biggest difference is the range.

On the plus side I will name another Atomic 4 boat for the list that you can find cheap and go literally anywhere in... a classic "good ole boat" the Alberg 30.  Not my cuppa either as a cruiser but they are at least a bit on the prettier side of many mentioned in terms of "row away appeal."  And at least down Chesapeake way you can find some OD racing which I am a fan of!  Great owners association.

  Atomic Bombs are like dating redheads.  You either get a really really REALLY good one...or a moody psycho cunt you think about heaving over the side and best left at the bottom of the bay every chance you spend time together.  And you never know which one you have until you do actually spend some time together.

 

  A C&C 30-1 is (almost) exactly what the OP is after, and personally I think the upswept sheer with a shark fin keel is still pretty.  But if you like classic lines with an Atomic Bomb that can sail to weather without being on your ear, how about a C&C Corvette?

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1970/C%26C-Corvette-2618546/Old-Greenwich/CT/United-States#.WXUO5OmQyCg

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1968/C-%26-C-Corvette-3012804/Port-Dover/Canada#.WXUPDumQyCg

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2 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

I like the looks of the Dufours. A lot of them are old enough that they are cheap enough. I think the original construction was good, though some may have iron keels and other maintenance considerations.

 

https://newlondon.craigslist.org/boa/d/dufour-sloop/6183207797.html

And an even cheaper one of the same model:

https://newlondon.craigslist.org/boa/d/dufour-ready-to-go/6203162247.html

Used to race on one of these (albeit the CS, slightly more sporty, version). Went a lot better than it looked like it should. No major vices so far as I can recall. 

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15 minutes ago, Dilligaf0220 said:

  But if you like classic lines with an Atomic Bomb that can sail to weather without being on your ear, how about a C&C Corvette?

...I've sailed a Corvette and it is just as "tender" as a Morgan 30 - not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

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3 hours ago, Tom Scott said:

...I've sailed a Corvette and it is just as "tender" as a Morgan 30 - not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

It's definitely a CCA era wineglass hull, but it's nowhere near as on your ear as an Alberg 30 or something like a small Contessa.

Seriously, those small Albergs have the rails buried before you see 15kts...lol you might like a ride in one.

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10 hours ago, Dilligaf0220 said:

It's definitely a CCA era wineglass hull, but it's nowhere near as on your ear as an Alberg 30 or something like a small Contessa.

Seriously, those small Albergs have the rails buried before you see 15kts...lol you might like a ride in one.

Not if you want to win OD races you wont, LOL!  In the A30 in 15 knots the 150 genny is the engine, whereas the main should be bladed, have a speed bubble on the luff and really just be along for the ride, simply steering.  Every time the tiller starts to come up the traveler goes down and visa versa.  Flatter is faster and less leeway. 

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15 hours ago, DFL1010 said:

Used to race on one of these (albeit the CS, slightly more sporty, version). Went a lot better than it looked like it should. No major vices so far as I can recall. 

 

There are versions in various lengths: 27,28,30 which look alike and I can't tell them apart.

As a generalization, European boats tend to take up more space for accommodations and the cockpits are smaller and better protected from the elements. (We have more benign weather.) Also, they tend to short tillers and we tend to long ones.  

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Flatter is not always faster. Some boats, Valiant 40 for instance, lie to pushed hard. Having raced an Ultimate 20, sportboat type, I can say with certainty that the boat was much faster upwind powered up and NOT sailed flat. It all depends on the boat, the conditions and the point of sail.

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5 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Flatter is not always faster. Some boats, Valiant 40 for instance, lie to pushed hard. Having raced an Ultimate 20, sportboat type, I can say with certainty that the boat was much faster upwind powered up and NOT sailed flat. It all depends on the boat, the conditions and the point of sail.

Agreed!  It also depends on HOW you are trying to sail flat.

On my boat, flatter is faster IF the way I am choosing to keep it flat is to have several crew out on the rail. However, if it is blowing 15 knots - and I am alone - she will still go faster with her rail touching the waves than she will with a deeply reefed main and small jib - and heeling much less.

Generally speaking, the CCA era keel-centerboarders, are comparatively narrow, rather slack-bilged, shallow of draft, and carry plenty of sail area. As such, nearly all can be fairly categorized as "tender" when compared to more recent designs that are much wider, have a harder turn to the bilge, carry their ballast deeper, and set slightly less sail area.  My boat is typical of her genre - and relatively easy to heel. (..At least she stiffens up nicely once the mast hits the water.:D)  But again, all of this is "in comparison" - not absolutes. My "tender" boat is fast and capable in strong winds - she simply may heel a few degrees more than  - say - a Catalina 30 might. 

Here she is doing 5.5 knots to windward in 25 knots of breeze single- handed (no rail meat! :(). Oh sure, she's a little damp perhaps, and some heel for sure, but not anything "crazy" - despite what some "flat sailors" scream. :D

 

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I agree Tom. I agree that flatter is almost always better but often NOT at the cost of horsepower. If you have to luff your sails to flatten the boat, that is not going to be fast. As long as I have raced, 55 years, I have always tried to sail the boat as flat as possible while not losing VMG. Simple as that. It's not complicated at all.

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I have a great S2 9.1 that might be in that price range would make a great cruiser with a good turn of speed!

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Lots of great suggestions here.  I've always loved the Tartan 30. If you haven't seen it, here's a fantastic T30 restoration that has always made me want one.  http://www.t30makeover.com/id52.html

Another good boat is the Cal 30-2 or -3. I've raced against one a few times and they are very quick for an older 30 footer. 

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14 hours ago, Tom Scott said:

Agreed!  It also depends on HOW you are trying to sail flat.

On my boat, flatter is faster IF the way I am choosing to keep it flat is to have several crew out on the rail. However, if it is blowing 15 knots - and I am alone - she will still go faster with her rail touching the waves than she will with a deeply reefed main and small jib - and heeling much less.

Generally speaking, the CCA era keel-centerboarders, are comparatively narrow, rather slack-bilged, shallow of draft, and carry plenty of sail area. As such, nearly all can be fairly categorized as "tender" when compared to more recent designs that are much wider, have a harder turn to the bilge, carry their ballast deeper, and set slightly less sail area.  My boat is typical of her genre - and relatively easy to heel. (..At least she stiffens up nicely once the mast hits the water.:D)  But again, all of this is "in comparison" - not absolutes. My "tender" boat is fast and capable in strong winds - she simply may heel a few degrees more than  - say - a Catalina 30 might. 

Here she is doing 5.5 knots to windward in 25 knots of breeze single- handed (no rail meat! :(). Oh sure, she's a little damp perhaps, and some heel for sure, but not anything "crazy" - despite what some "flat sailors" scream. :D

 

Hey Tom -

I hesitated responding because I know you have this thing about liking to lean over, LOL.  So let me better explain my short hand comment "flatter is faster" with regards the Alberg 30 (friends boat) which I OD race on. There is a fleet of A30s in the Chesapeake so its pretty easy when you get 8-10 bots on the line to see what works and not.

Agree with Bob's comment that flatter is faster if not at the cost of horsepower but...  you can have too much horsepower (not sure that is the best way to say it).

With the A30 in 15 - 20 knots of breeze we would likely still be using a 150 genny and full main in the race had significant windward and leeward legs.  Upwind we would be aiming for a target boats speed a bit higher than you reference in the video.  Once we have that target speed, more horsepower does us no good, especially if its translated into further heeling, which is translated into both more leeway (bad when going upwind, right?) and more weather helm (bad because remember rudder is a brake, right?) due to the hull shape when excessively heeled.  Generally speaking, in that breeze, going upwind the genny provides all the necessary horsepower to get the boat to its target speed.  That is what I mean when I say the main is along for the ride (in terms of horsepower).  But its (the main) still got work to do... its just less about horsepower and more about balance and giving us point (good tacking angle).  The traveler (and mainsheet if its really puffy or overpowering) are being really aggressively worked up and down and essentially steering the boat.  Main trimmer and helm are constantly talking and coordinating.  Don't even need to talk though in that if the helm comes up the main trimmer automatically knows the traveler has to go down.... immediately 

Our goal is then to be at max (target) speed, with good point, and be flatter than others so we make less leeway and use less rudder countering weather helm... so we beat them to the WW mark.  And sailed like this, the boat/owner usually does!

If you ever do want to try this you will notice a few things.  First there will be a bubble in luff of the main as its back winded by the genny especially when the traveler is eased.  On my multihull (F27F) chocking the slot like this is slow. Its death.  Not so on the Alberg 30.  We call it a speed bubble because its fast!  The front of the main is doing nothing... along for the ride.  Just the leech of the main is working to steer the boat and help with balance and pointing.  In really big puffs, if we have good boat speed, the driver will pinch up a bit (all inside telltails lifting) and sometimes even get just a bit of a bubble in the luff of the genny, trying to stay flatter and avoid excessive heel. Its absurdly fast in terms of upwind VMG.

Hope this is helpful.  Not intended as a criticism.  And its also to address the comment up thread that the A30 has bad weather helm... not so!  Only does if its sailed badly (on its ear)!  Sailed and trimmed well, its a pretty sweet helm.  Surprisingly, given its old design and full keel, its even got some really subtle speed tweaks when you learn to drive it really well.  I don't have enough stick time on it but I am amazed when the owner drives it in big breeze and waves using that little genny luff trick.  Its such a narrow groove and the rudder is so small relative to the big full keel so its a real skill he has acquired through decades of owning and racing her.

Anyway, YMMV.

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Wess, I have been sailing for 48 years now. What you described is what I do and have done - and it's what most people do when racing "big-mained" CCA boats. We all know about "the bubble". In strong winds on the upwind legs, I'd sometimes relinquish the helm to a crew member, and move aft to play the traveler myself - because I wanted to steer the boat! :D  The mainsail trim controls the direction of the boat as much or more than the rudder when moving upwind in heavy air. There are times when you literally can not bear away unless you ease the main first.  I have witnessed collisions on the starting line and at mark roundings because this characteristic was not fully appreciated by an inexperienced skipper  :)  

Anyway, the only point I was really trying to make is that comparing the relative stiffness of an Alberg 30, with a Morgan 30, with a C&C Corvette, is really just splitting some very fine hairs. It's like the difference between Coca Cola, Pepsi, and Royal Crown Cola - ALL can certainly be discerned as being "different" and "distinct", and yet ALL are cola flavored beverages that are actually quite similar to one another.

So, I think if the OP is concerned about the Pearson 30 being considered "tender", I'd have a difficult time suggesting he consider any typical CCA era boat.  I think wider beam, higher freeboard, less sail area, and deeper draft than what most CCA boats offer is going to be what makes him happy when looking at 30' boats.  

For me, I actually prefer sailing a "tender" boat in SW Florida. In very light air, I can feel her respond to every little puff and lift.  The typical wind speed for my area is just below 12 knots, and a boat that favors the tender side is simply a joy to sail in our typical conditions. I go sailing on days that others say there is not enough wind to bother. My tender boat does require reefing early - but I even find that to be a benefit when cruising because it is much easier to tie in a good reef in 14 knots of wind, than it is at 20+ knots of wind - reefing in lighter wind takes less effort.:)  

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13 minutes ago, Bryanjb said:

What happened to JonE's boat?

Internet tracks...from 3/11/2016:

Quote

I was asked to assist Jon's brother Bud who is handling estate issues in organizing/handling and executing the sale of Jon Eisberg's beloved Chance 30 named Chancy. As all know, Jon rigged this small powerhouse of a sailor incredibly well. She is offshore proven having sailed as far north as the Labrador Sea and as far south as Rio Dulce National Park, Guatemala via Cuba.
Jon's boat is the real deal. A single handers dream come true. RogueWave Yacht Sales is doing this commission free. $35,000 FIRM....as is where is, completely world cruising equipped. Serious inquiries only. Thank you.
Call me, Bernie at 443-742-1792 or email me at bernie@roguewaveyachtsales.com

Trail goes cold here.

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On 7/24/2017 at 5:23 PM, Tom Scott said:

... Oh sure, she's a little damp perhaps, and some heel for sure, but not anything "crazy" - despite what some "flat sailors" scream. :D

 

Ah, the rose-colored glasses of love. And I do appreciate how Whimsy is the best-loved boat on the harbor, but...

I have been on a lot of boats and have been on exactly one boat that had a wetter ride: an old 19' Mako that someone had added at least a few hundred pounds to the bow in a poorly-executed reinforcement. The boat REALLY didn't like that extra weight up front. One day, in flat calm conditions with just a little quartering wind, the bow spray just gently curved up off the boat and ran into me in a continuous stream. Whimsy has never managed THAT trick, which makes her the second-wettest boat I have known.

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From viewing Tom's pictures I figured Whimsy had her rail in the water as soon as she was out of the slings of her hoist. :P

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9 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Ah, the rose-colored glasses of love. And I do appreciate how Whimsy is the best-loved boat on the harbor, but...

I have been on a lot of boats and have been on exactly one boat that had a wetter ride: an old 19' Mako that someone had added at least a few hundred pounds to the bow in a poorly-executed reinforcement. The boat REALLY didn't like that extra weight up front. One day, in flat calm conditions with just a little quartering wind, the bow spray just gently curved up off the boat and ran into me in a continuous stream. Whimsy has never managed THAT trick, which makes her the second-wettest boat I have known.

Whimp. :)

Splash

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Bah. You know firsthand that the truth is an Adventure Island is even wetter. But that's expected when your butt is below water level and the boat ends next to your hips.

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It really is too bad that Tom doesn't love, like, or even appreciate his boat. Even old, tender gasoline-powered centerboard monstrosities deserve some love once in a while.

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11 minutes ago, RedRyder said:

It really is too bad that Tom doesn't love, like, or even appreciate his boat. Even old, tender gasoline-powered centerboard monstrosities deserve some love once in a while.

Pffft... methinks he loves it a little too much.

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I love my Cal 29 and it covers the bases BUT if I had a do-over, I'd want an older fashioned center-boarded something like a Pearson Wanderer. 30' with 3'6" draft. Draft depth matters.

On 7/16/2017 at 9:19 AM, pcbguy said:

I have been sailing my Catalina 25 for over a decade and am looking for a 30 ft with diesel -- on a beer budget in "good" condition. Under consideration are the Catalina 30, Pearson 30 and Islander 30 as it appears they could fit within my budget. I have seen some very well maintained Pearson 30's but all reviews seem to characterize them as being very "tender" sailboats. The Catalina 30's in my price range seem to be semi-project boats. The Islanders are all over the place. As a mostly single hand sailor the Pearson seems very tempting and I know the "bones" will be solid. I am seeking input about each as a boat options for someone who will be sailing solo most of the time -- thoughts?

 

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