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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
ricwoz

New vs. Old school blue water 37 footers?

14 posts in this topic

For a couple doing long range cruising in the Pacific it used to be that a good affordable boat would be something like a Pacific Seacraft 37.     I sailed to Bermuda on a Hans Christian 36 many years ago, and we hit absolutely horrible weather and the boat never gave me a worry, and sort of convinced me that there was something to the old-school, double ender for passage making over the typical boats I grew up sailing on in the Great Lakes, like Sabres and Ericsons.    I got busy having a family and a career, and most of my sailing was on beach cats for a decade, followed by no sailing at all for too long. 

Now I'm thinking about getting a boat to sail from Washington to Hawaii and beyond, and I don't want to be stuck with my 1980s vision of "bluewater".    But I've missed a lot. 

I see boats like the Xc range, which are priced similarly to Pacific Seacraft, Tayana, and Hans Christians, but obviously are designed with very different ideas.   How do these general types of boat stack up?  Is there any reason to still favor the older double-ender style over the newer ones?   

The gods willing I'll be in a position to buy a nice boat in a year or two and plan to sail to the Philippines, where I will be retiring with my wife, and wondered what people here with more experience think about the relative merits of the two types.   I've thought 37 foot or so was a good size for a couple, maybe I could go a little smaller in a more modern boat which seem to have more volume below per foot of LOA,  but also maybe I could go larger as the prices on some of the newer designs seems a bit less. 

Apologies in advance if this has been covered previously, I did try to do some searches, but couldn't find a topic much like this.  Thanks in advance for your sharing your opinions. 

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I think it depends a lot on how you see your personal cruising style.  What are your priorities?  More modern hulls of the same length will be lighter, hence less volume for tanks, provisions, personal stuff, tools and spares, etc.  But the lighter boat can be faster, get you to port sooner, run from bad weather.  The older/heavier boat may be slower but you can take more with you, maybe feel more secure/safer.  For me safety and comfort don't come as much from the boat as they do from preparation, timing, self awareness/limits and reliability/simplicity.  Different boats draw different cliques- are you a pirate or a techie?  Don't think there's a better boat that lets any majority check a box.  But there's the perfect boat for you.  For me, I've picked a weight, not a length- then the class can include 30' snails and 45' ULDBs.  That's a wide range- brings it back to "who are you?"

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Piggy-backing on "boatcat65's" comments: If there was a "best" boat type, and everyone wanted the "best", we'd all be sailing the same boat.:)

When it comes to picking a boat for any desired adventure, we seem to spend so much time focusing on the boat - when in reality it is our attitude and desire that will be the biggest factor in the outcome. The best boat for you will be the one that comes closest to matching the attitude you are comfortable with in operating it. There is no shame in being stuck in your 1980's vision of "bluewater". Designs and attitudes have changed a lot - but the sea has not. If cared for, old boats can do what they were designed to to do just as well today as they ever could - it is our attitudes that change. For example, in another thread I suggested a Block Island 40 as a possible choice to meet the needs of a family for weekend cruising. In the 1960's & 70's, countless families used that boat - and similar boats - to do exactly that, and they were happy. But today, the boat has been deemed "tiny" - only "suitable for two, and a couple of visitors". The older boat really hasn't changed that much in its modern iteration, but the attitudes and perspectives of people certainly have.  

If your intended use is to sail to across and down the Pacific to the Philippines as a couple in the 21st century, length still equals speed - and size equals load carrying capacity. (...load not being just people, but water, fuel, dinghies, food, supplies, and comfort items.)  You can ignore a lot of things, but the basic physics of sailing still apply to modern cruising boats - and waterline length is a big factor in speed for your heavy non-planing cruiser.  Light modern boats may be faster in spurts, but the key is how consistently can you maintain that speed?  Will it carry the load? And regardless, a good cruising boat of any vintage should be able to take care of itself fairly well when you are necessarily pre-occupied elsewhere. Can it comfortably and readily lie-ahull for a few days? Can it self-steer long enough for you to go below for a while without the auto-pilot working? Will it carry all you want without the performance suffering terribly?  What is the longest you could expect to be on passage? 60 days? 90 days? What if the water-maker fails? 

In the end, I imagine you will be best suited to a boat in the 20,000+ lb. range of displacement no matter what length it ends up being. Whatever you choose, the boat should reflect your sensibilities and your attitude, not what all the cool people are doing or using. (..can you tell that I sail an old and uncool boat?:D)  I bet you will know what you want when you see it - good luck in the search! :)

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No one wants to sail a slow crappy handling boat, but just for example if you had any number of fast light boats, you might really love the exciting sailing and curse the lack of storage, lack of tankage, shallow bilges that get water everywhere, and all the other things that differentiate a race winner from a home.

YMMV and all, but I can't say the PS 37 is a bad boat in 2017 and neither is a Valiant 40 and both are a step up in performance from a traditional full keel boat.

Right now for me to sail to Bermuda, I would take 3 weeks off work and a 5 day passage vs a slow boat taking 7 days really gives me a lot more vacation time on the island. If I were retired, I might not really care that much.

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I've been giving this question a lot of thought for 50 years. I designed heavy cruising bats and I have designed light cruising boats.

Two categories does not cover or even come close to the variety of design choices.

I'm not sure the "old school" vs "new school" approach works. I'd be more inclined to break it down into high D/L boats vs low D/L boats. And of course with that goes high and low SA/D numbers. But in the end I think it's about personal sailing style and how long you want to stay self sufficient.

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Bob - what are your thoughts on shallow bilges?

My old C&C 35 is fast in any wind offshore, but water gets EVERYWHERE because the bilge holds about 5 gallons when upright and none healed over and it gets to be a really annoying quality of life issue with anything in the lower lockers getting wet sooner or later.

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Kent:

If you asked me to design you a fast cruising boat I would recommend some deadrise in order to get some depth to the bilge and a natural bilge sump. I think no deadrise is faster but not faster enough to offset the annoyance of not having a sump.

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Choosing a live aboard is a balance between a size large enough to carry the equipment and provisions you need, and small enough for a couple to handle without fatigue on a passage. 35-40' is about right. Find a boat in that range you like.  Doesn't need to handle Cape Horn or Hurricanes...prudent planning avoids extreme weather. Most time will be at dock or anchored out. Most of the sailing will be off the wind, but reasonable windward ability is desirable. Draft should be compatible with area you're cruising.

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I think Lin and Larry Pardey have a lot to answer for - at least to American and Canadian cruisers. They convinced a generation or two that slow and steady is the way to go.

The French all cruise around the world in light fin keelers with their wives, mistresses, girlfriends, kids (usually all on the same boat). Or some that have read Moitessier have ugly steel hard chine and steal your stuff. The Aussies sail odd boats if they are older because there were high import taxes a while ago and so they built a lot in-country. The other European countries tend to the medium range of displacement. Brits tend to follow US/Canadian style boats.

Our first boat was a slow heavy, high D/L 30' mono. A good safe first boat for offshore cruising.

Second real boat was a 40' light displacement cat. There is nothing better than a good sailing boat (be it cat or mono). If you like sailing, get a boat that sails well. All boats slow down when heavily loaded for cruising, but a heavy slow boat will always be slower.

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A keel stub helps give a shallow hull some sump, also gets the lead outside and helps the keel stay attached to the boat.

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1 hour ago, olaf hart said:

A keel stub helps give a shallow hull some sump, also gets the lead outside and helps the keel stay attached to the boat.

That's what they did with the C&C 35 Mk 3, there still isn't a lot of capacity in the sump but a decent pump takes care of that. We haven't got water into any really unusual places during normal heeling over, but it will ooze out the corners if you're playing silly buggers.

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So you have been to Desolation Sound and come back looking like James Cook, well done ...

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If he'd done it well he would have come back looking like George Vancouver.

I give him a C+

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Cooks third voyage explored the PNW, IIRC he also trained Vancouver

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