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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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ricwoz

New vs. Old school blue water 37 footers?

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33 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

The DB2 was an IOR boat, so what would you expect? Boat stiffness was specifically penalised, these boats had to be tender to get a good rating and were relying on a heavy crew on the rail to get power.

+1

A light boat with decent stability would be a much nicer ride

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27 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Any light displacement boat is going to be tender to one degree or another. Ever gone upwind in a sled? The point, which flew over your head like an exploding runner block, is that setting a chute and planing across the ocean on autopilot while sipping cocktails in the cockpit is simply a fantasy of people who haven't much, if any, sea miles. 

Is Francis Lee tender?

Is a Pogo tender?

No.

Assertions to the contrary may just be a fantasy of people who haven't much, experience of modern light displacement boats :)

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53 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Is Francis Lee tender?

Is a Pogo tender?

No.

Assertions to the contrary may just be a fantasy of people who haven't much, experience of modern light displacement boats :)

FL is a cool boat. The customers criteria wasn't for a bluewater boat or even a cruising boat. Francis Lee has the rig from a 40'er...24' shorter than FL. 

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3 hours ago, RKoch said:

Any light displacement boat is going to be tender to one degree or another. Ever gone upwind in a sled? The point, which flew over your head like an exploding runner block, is that setting a chute and planing across the ocean on autopilot while sipping cocktails in the cockpit is simply a fantasy of people who haven't much, if any, sea miles. 

Greg Elliott has designed some nice fantasy boats, only problem is once a skipper fell overboard on the way back from Fiji and the boat was so quick his wife didn't realise he had gone for some miles.

Have to stay tethered on in these boats, but they do cruise easily at semi planing speeds

http://www.elliott-marine.com/elliott-fleet/elliott-1350-tourer/

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30 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

Have to stay tethered on in these boats, but they do cruise easily at semi planing speeds

semi planing is actually way more comfortable than wallowing around as the waves roll underneath

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36 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

semi planing is actually way more comfortable than wallowing around as the waves roll underneath

I'm quite certain that BPerry's carbon cutters aren't going to wallow, despite being on the heavy displace side. They will also go upwind just fine without being over demanding on the crew. I'll bet they are a very comfortable boat at sea, and show their heels to a number of much lighter cruisers.

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26 minutes ago, RKoch said:

I'm quite certain that BPerry's carbon cutters aren't going to wallow, despite being on the heavy displace side. They will also go upwind just fine without being over demanding on the crew. I'll bet they are a very comfortable boat at sea, and show their heels to a number of much lighter cruisers.

Oh, the carbon cutters will move all right, and I'm sure they'll do well up wind too.  But I'm pretty sure Bob has said he doesn't expect them to surf

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9 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Oh, the carbon cutters will move all right, and I'm sure they'll do well up wind too.  But I'm pretty sure Bob has said he doesn't expect them to surf

They won't plane, but put a chute up and they'll surf. Even wing and wing they'll move along quite nicely, and not be too demanding. Just because a boat is a displacement hull doesn't mean it sails like a Wetsnail or Island Packet. 

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12 hours ago, Albatros said:

small world, innit ?.... in Orkland Traversay was berthed next to us, .......

Only reason I knew they were back in town was we shared an anchorage down near GdP with an Austrian boat that had come through the NWP with them..

small world indeed... in Orc Land you could be in the same marina as someone and never know they were there.

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7 hours ago, RKoch said:

They won't plane, but put a chute up and they'll surf. Even wing and wing they'll move along quite nicely, and not be too demanding. Just because a boat is a displacement hull doesn't mean it sails like a Wetsnail or Island Packet. 

The chute will have to be a big spinnaker to be powerful enough for the boat dead downwind and the loads in the guys and sheets will be rather high because the boat is heavy and will slow quite a bit when on the uphill side of the wave. At the end when there are just a few people on board (that is most of the time!!), mere mortals won't fly it because it is just too much hassle and too dangerous. Imagine broaching it (error of attention or bad wave in the wrong place) and the hassle to recover while the boat goes sideway pulled by its sails with gigantic loads as it drags a lot of water.

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Not sure I'm following this thread but since my name was mentioned here are some thoughts:

FRANKIE is anything but tender. It's a powerful boat. It was conceived as a daysailer but I managed to talk Kim into reasonable accommodations.

I think just about any boat can surf in the right conditions. A Tashiba 31 doing 14 knots, as recorded, is surfing. The Valiant 40 can surf. I've done that.

I agree with Kocher. The idea of a couple planing their way effortlessly over a long passage is fiction. Maybe with six guys aboard you could do it.

I suspect the cf cutters will do very well upwind. Unlike most boats of this style, we have a deck layout consistent wit what you want for good upwind trimming options. The VPP's look promising and the boat are getting very nice sets of North sails.

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A couple more , posy coffee, thoughts on this subject.

Sure the CF cutters weigh 35,600 lbs at half load. It's 2017 so we can call that "heavy". But they have the same D/L and SA/D as the Valiant 40, very close. In 1974  designer Ray Richards, writing in YACHTING mag wrote that the Valiant 40 was" Too light to be considered a serious offshore boat". There, I know it verbatim. How wrong can you be Raymundo 350 V-40's later?

So, if the V40 can surf I suspect the CF cutters will surf. They have nice long buttocks aft. This is not your Daddy's Lyle Hess designed BCC.

butt

But while SA/D and D/L are almost identical the big difference is in B/D and VCG. The Valiant 40 has a B/D of 39% and the CF cutters have B/D's of 43%. The V40 has a VCG right at the DWL while the CF cutters have a VCG ore than a foot below the DWL due t more draft, lower VCG of ballast and CF construction benefits. The CF cutter will go to weather in a breeze like freight trains.

I keep saying it but I'm not sure how many are getting it. I can tell Kocher is. There really are no boats like the CF cutters. It's a whole new formula for an offshore boat. Is it the right formula? We'll see. I made the right choices 43 years ago on the V-40. I think I've once again made the right choices.

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18 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Not sure I'm following this thread but since my name was mentioned here are some thoughts:

FRANKIE is anything but tender. It's a powerful boat. It was conceived as a daysailer but I managed to talk Kim into reasonable accommodations.

I think just about any boat can surf in the right conditions. A Tashiba 31 doing 14 knots, as recorded, is surfing. The Valiant 40 can surf. I've done that.

I agree with Kocher. The idea of a couple planing their way effortlessly over a long passage is fiction. Maybe with six guys aboard you could do it.

I suspect the cf cutters will do very well upwind. Unlike most boats of this style, we have a deck layout consistent wit what you want for good upwind trimming options. The VPP's look promising and the boat are getting very nice sets of North sails.

 

With my limited experience I have found almost any boat I've sailed can surf briefly. I've done 7 knots in my Portland Pudgy with following waves and 30 knots of wind, and that boat has a D/L of 419 when I'm in it :)

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4 hours ago, willp14335 said:

 

With my limited experience I have found almost any boat I've sailed can surf briefly. I've done 7 knots in my Portland Pudgy with following waves and 30 knots of wind, and that boat has a D/L of 419 when I'm in it :)

+1

I can testify that even a 560 tons minesweeper can surf, it wasn't very pretty though as I soon discovered that the rudders weren't quite big enough and we started broaching. When asked about the big roll that ensued I pretended that the ship just got caught by a bad wave, the watch officer  bought the explanation but after my watch the cook who was preparing meals at the time didn't and reluctantly served me just a slice of ham for my dinner after shouting at me about flying food and utensils. I shouldn't but I still can't stop laughing when remembering this, I still wonder if the skipper reported this as a some kind of potential hazard to his peers or if he had his doubts about his tillerman steering style being more suited for a 505 than a grey ship.

Nevertheless, it's a bit pointless to push a heavy boat to surf as it generally doesn't last very long.

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