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Its not "just" anything: it has new ama foils compared to its previous incarnation as Gitana(which were UptiP-the new ones "L" foils installed at an angle so they work as UptiP foils). And the biggest difference is the daggerboard lifting foil-used first on the Fire Arrow Test Model and the first fullsize on Maserati-probably one of the most significant design breakthrus in the history of trimaran design. But Maserati remains a conversion where Verdier's greatest masterpiece so far is Gitana 17 which was designed from scratch with UptiP ama foils (with a droop tip)- somewhat similar ones used first on the Fire Arrow Test Model but Gitana is the first full size trimaran to use them. Gitana 17 was designed from scratch to use an adjustable daggerboard foil to generate lift and downforce. The UptiP ama foil/ lifting daggerboard(with downforce) are the basic elements of a revolutionary trimaran design concept.

Gitana 17 by Yann Riou;  Fire Arrow picture by Dan Burke/Doug Lord :

Gitana Foiling!.jpg

MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling on video-7-24-14 012 (3) - Copy.JPG

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On 9/14/2017 at 6:24 AM, Boink said:

Don't buy a Ferrari - you'll never fit that tubby physique - let alone that fat head

Besides, it will only be more confirmation that you are compensating for all things lacking......

Now toddle off, and deepthroat some industry insider, you paragon of sailing journalism

 

I can't tell what you're writing here.  Is this how a weeping vagina calls someone larger than them 'fat' and 'small cocked'?

 

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Can you believe the amount of aggrandizement and beyond extreme delusion by the uPtiP Lord of Fools.

Next he'll be demanding Verdier and Gitana pay him millions for LoFool's fees.

The turkey has no shame. His erratically hopping/nose burying failure, his 4 foot long bath toy compared to a 100 foot ocean racer.

And he is typically way wrong on T foils being placed on main daggers; the French did it 30 odd years ago on their big trifoilers.

This has been pointed out before ... but did it make an impression on LoFools?

One guess.

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42 minutes ago, Groucho Marx said:

Can you believe the amount of aggrandizement and beyond extreme delusion by the uPtiP Lord of Fools.

Next he'll be demanding Verdier and Gitana pay him millions for LoFool's fees.

The turkey has no shame. His erratically hopping/nose burying failure, his 4 foot long bath toy compared to a 100 foot ocean racer.

And he is typically way wrong on T foils being placed on main daggers; the French did it 30 odd years ago on their big trifoilers.

This has been pointed out before ... but did it make an impression on LoFools?

One guess.

There's a lot more to the lifting daggerboard on Fire Arrow , Maserati and Gitana 17 than the outdated, non-foiling old boats you refer to: not one of them worked like these new boats do and you just show incredible ignorance when you try to say they are the same!!! Just silly,old man! 

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Non foiling, eh?

This is more your style, you overfed to obesity old flatulent.  Looks like something you would dream up in your bath? But it at least does work. Unlike your toys?

douglord1 copy.jpg

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Gitana 17 vid-thanks to nav:

 

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  On 9/14/2017 at 6:24 PM, Boink said:

Don't buy a Ferrari - you'll never fit that tubby physique - let alone that fat head

Besides, it will only be more confirmation that you are compensating for all things lacking......

Now toddle off, and deepthroat some industry insider, you paragon parasite of sailing journalism

On 10/6/2017 at 3:40 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

I can't tell what you're writing here.  Is this how a weeping vagina calls someone larger than them 'fat' and 'small cocked'?

 

AWwwwww........Did I get under your skin?

(Being of the larger framed variety, means you have a lot of skin to get under)

 

Your writing is so eloquent and well chosen. You must make your partner and mother so proud; not to mention your English teacher.

Now put down that donut, and get back to your deepthroating.......

Console yourself instead, with the following fact: there are over 200 proteins present in the semen that you are knobgobbling........ Chop chop Cocksucker

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On 10/6/2017 at 8:36 AM, Doug Lord said:

Gitana 17 vid-thanks to nav:

 

Check this video out-best yet in the roughest conditions so far!

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Great picture of Gitana 17's daggerboard main foil:

from Voiles et Voiliers, cover picture by B. Stichelbaut/Gitana SA

Gitana 17 on the cover of Voiles et Voiliers - Copy.png

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"the biggest difference is the daggerboard lifting foil-used first on the Fire Arrow Test Model and the first fullsize on Maserati-probably one of the most significant design breakthrus in the history of trimaran design."

  • Rudders in the amas
  • Canting rigs
  • Lifting foils in the amas
  • square top mains
  • wave piercing hulls

But I must confess, I did not see a lifting foil on the daggerboard before...  Anyone got pics of a trimaran with a foil on the daggerboard?

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5 hours ago, Loose Cannon said:

"the biggest difference is the daggerboard lifting foil-used first on the Fire Arrow Test Model and the first fullsize on Maserati-probably one of the most significant design breakthrus in the history of trimaran design."

  • Rudders in the amas
  • Canting rigs
  • Lifting foils in the amas
  • square top mains
  • wave piercing hulls

But I must confess, I did not see a lifting foil on the daggerboard before...  Anyone got pics of a trimaran with a foil on the daggerboard?

Whoa mate, don't forget:

Asymmetric running sails

The move from dagger-board-less hull shapes (a-la wharram style) to rounded bilges/flat planing hulls with daggerboards.

Rotating wing shaped rigs

High aspect rudders

Rudders with stabilisers

Composite materials

Epoxy Resin

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Getting bored correcting this dopey information that  Maserati and Gitana 17 were the first to place horizontal foils on main dagger or main hull; this was done more than 30 odd  years ago with the Kelsall 52 foot tri foiler VSD 11 and a couple of years or so  later the Gilles Vaton 75 foot maxi-foiler Charles Heidsieck. There were a couple of others but can't remember the names at moment.

charlesheidsieck copy.jpg

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The revolutionary Foil System used by Fire Arrow, Maserati, Gitana 17 and now Banque Populaire is the combination of an  mainfoil(adjustable) on the daggerboard with UptiP ama foils(or foils that work like UptiP foils) and rudder t-foil(s). This has never been done in history until I did it on the Fire Arrow and Verdier did it first on fullsize trimarans starting with Maserati and now Gitana 17. It is simply Frog Mans bullshit to say that any of the boats he mentioned pioneered this foil system first.

 

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The Charles H was foil assisted, not full flying. It did not use UptiP ama foils. It did not have rudder t-foils. The system it used did not work like the Fire Arrow Foil System or the nearly identical versions seen on Maserati, Gitana 17 or Banque Populaire.

The winglets on the Charles H daggerboard were there to improve the efficiency of the board-not to lift the whole boat as happens with all versions of the Fire Arrow Foil System. The Charles H was certainly advanced for its time but it did not remotely use a system like the Fire Arrow Foil System. It did not fly.

Charles H foil assisted tri 2.jpg

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I asked a friend to translate the little comment in the above sketch of Charles H: the little winglets were set at an angle of incidence so that they created lift to help fly the main hull. They were not adjustable but were removable.

From other sources I learned that ,unfortunately, the boat was too heavy to fly the main hull. She was not a foiler-just foil assist.

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Look again at the photograph posted of Charles Heidsieck, demented one, although the boat was built too heavy the main T foil (and the angled leeward float foil) still lifted all the forward sections of the main hull clear. 35 years before your asinine toy was even thought of?

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14 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

Look again at the photograph posted of Charles Heidsieck, demented one, although the boat was built too heavy the main T foil (and the angled leeward float foil) still lifted all the forward sections of the main hull clear. 35 years before your asinine toy was even thought of?

Groucho, Your aversion to Doug Lord is interesting. Can I ask you something? Has he publicly denigrated you for decades?  Does he sell unproven concepts to people who don't know any better on the power of his words alone?                                                                      

I think you know where I am going with this. How about another question; if Doug were from down under, would you allow him his eccentricities?  Sorry, I know this is weird and I'm not going to get answers, but I wish I could understand you and your leanings. If I didn't respect you, I wouldn't care.

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On 10/26/2017 at 12:36 AM, darth reapius said:

Whoa mate, don't forget:

XAsymmetric running sails

XThe move from dagger-board-less hull shapes (a-la wharram style) to rounded bilges/flat planing hulls with daggerboards.

XRotating wing shaped rigs

XHigh aspect rudders

XRudders with stabilisers

XComposite materials 

XEpoxy Resin

Not one of the items you mention is trimaran specific whereas the Fire Arrow Foil System and the similar one by Verdier and on Banque Populaire are trimaran specific. The Foil System is a MAJOR breakthrough in trimaran design and it is awesomely exciting to me to see these multimillion dollar big boats adopting the System that I first showed to Hugh Welbourn when he was sitting and talking with me on a visit to Cocoa Beach. He was very encouraging back then-late 2012.

MPX Fire Arrow.jpg

MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling on video-7-24-14 009 (2).JPG

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Russ, if Lordofools resided in NZ he would be laughed out of town as a lunatic with gigantic obsessions. Which is the reality; see above for the untold number of bonkers repeats. My comments are restrained to what would occur if the crazed loon resided in this country.

Interestingly in the earlier years of his postings I was sympathetic and defended his stuff ... but then something snapped and I saw the light, flashing red in my case.

But you are right, need not to respond to the turkey.

I've attempted to put him on ignore a number of times; obviously doing something wrong ... or maybe he is the nightmare-ish plague from which it is impossible to escape?

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On 9/15/2017 at 6:14 AM, Doug Lord said:

And a couple of the top foiler designers in the world have seen the thread and the resulting Fire Arrow Foil Concept Test Model and told me that it was just great.

DoUgIe O Foily King,

please quote the names of these "top foiler designers" and what did they say exactly.

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On 28/10/2017 at 7:36 PM, basildog said:

DoUgIe O Foily King,

please quote the names of these "top foiler designers" and what did they say exactly.

I love how he just down-voted you instead of replying to your question.

On 28/10/2017 at 6:43 AM, Groucho Marx said:

Russ, if Lordofools resided in NZ he would be laughed out of town as a lunatic with gigantic obsessions. Which is the reality; see above for the untold number of bonkers repeats. My comments are restrained to what would occur if the crazed loon resided in this country.

Interestingly in the earlier years of his postings I was sympathetic and defended his stuff ... but then something snapped and I saw the light, flashing red in my case.

But you are right, need not to respond to the turkey.

I've attempted to put him on ignore a number of times; obviously doing something wrong ... or maybe he is the nightmare-ish plague from which it is impossible to escape?

Oh man, I second that Russ, my ignore works perfectly on him, but man is it fucking annoying when it comes up ten times in a row "You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options ?"  (without a single other post by anyone)

On 27/10/2017 at 10:35 PM, Russell Brown said:

Groucho, Your aversion to Doug Lord is interesting. Can I ask you something? Has he publicly denigrated you for decades?  Does he sell unproven concepts to people who don't know any better on the power of his words alone?                                                                      

I think you know where I am going with this. How about another question; if Doug were from down under, would you allow him his eccentricities?  Sorry, I know this is weird and I'm not going to get answers, but I wish I could understand you and your leanings. If I didn't respect you, I wouldn't care.

Groucho's a top bloke, who has some cool full size projects.

Russ what Doug does is copy other things from other designers and try to pass it all off as his own. All his foil shapes and ideas are just copies, like his "uptip" foils, which he claims is his own shape/design are an exact copy of the TNZ foils from 2012. He has even posted about copying them in the past, but has since changed his claims. He claims to be some sort of god at foiling/design, claiming 1000 hours (or some other insanely high number of hours) of Rave foiling, but has no evidence whatsoever to this claim, and has been asked to produce something some shred of evidence, and still has never provided any evidence whatsoever, not even who's boat it was on, because he actually never had a foiler himself (he would have posted hundreds of photo's of it if he did, because he's posted literally thousands of times about the same model foiler, which has sailed 3 times for all of about 20 minutes in total, and kind-of worked for about 10 seconds of that (whilst the remaining 19 minutes and 50 seconds is pretty shameful - eg. constant nose-diving in 3 knots of wind, inability to tack, no sustained foiling for more than 10 seconds etc), and it hasn't seen the water in 4 years. Seriously that little model he posts about all day every day has not sailed in 4 years. He himself hasn't sailed in decades. For over a decade I have seen people ask him to provide some evidence that he himself has actually done anything other than re-post other peoples content or copy other people's ideas and put them into his own models, and the only thing he has done is be a pest, who re-posts other peoples content. He constantly is contacting famous designers (for what reason?).

He joined the A-Class association to vote in the rules change when they voted as to allow/dis-allow insert from below foils. He voted for the insert from below foils, in a class he has literally never sailed, has no involvement with and no future possibility of involvement. Fortunately the vote lost (and only BARELY so he almost made a difference! FFS) and in the end it turned out that the insert from above foils have been WAY better for the class, being quicker, beach launch-able, and requiring less crew-work whilst sailing. He literally destroyed the old moth forum (as a non-mothie I can't elaborate much more on this one, but you can see conversations on here of him arguing with Bora Gulari about moth sailing... (Doug having never sailed a moth and Bora being a multiple times world champion). Quite literally a great forum for moths and foiling was completely abandoned by all involved because of him.

Doug also spent months during and before the Americas cup this year posting completely incorrect information, basically stating that everyone was WRONG and disregarding all evidence to the contrary. He stated literally 100's of times that the teams were sailing with 1 set of all purpose uptip foils which used cant to be fast. What actually was the truth was that no teams sailed with 1 set of foils, they all had multiple different sets of foils, which NEVER used cant as that slowed them down, and none of the foils at all had up-turned tips", they were all using "L" shaped boards which use more complex control systems to control rake.

He proceeded to use my sketches which I shared for everyone on SA to show the different board shapes the teams were using without my permission, and instead of with my information, completely disregarded that and posted the images with "these up-tip all-purpose foils use cant to cover the whole wind-range and be fastest from 5-25 knots of wind", when in-fact my sketches showed high-wind and low-wind foils catered to the 5-11 and 12-18 knot wind ranges, and that canting the boards reduces speed drastically but can increase the stability of life from the foil.

Unlike the many of us who want to help people Doug provides incorrect information to those beginners or people interested in learning about the subject, he never explains why anyone else may be incorrect, he just says they are WRONG and calls them idiots. Unfortunately most of us aren't retired old men who don't sail, we are full time working sailors who do not have anywhere near the time to post as he does, so effectively there's 11000 posts of his on here, and the fantastic and helpful people have a mere few hundred posts. So to any new person he appears to be really "on the ball", when in-fact he's pretty much the farthest from the ball.

He also doesn't stop fucking name dropping, I feel really sorry for the famous people he name-drops constantly, you can't even know if he's just making shit up or if they genuinely responded (I assume out of pity, or worry of having their name tarnished). 

After all of this, he'll probably reply with "BULLSHIT YOU ARE JUST SOME LYING PUNK IDIOT" but not actually provide a shred of evidence to show any of the points above. Which is all we have asked for, for years.

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2 hours ago, darth reapius said:

I love how he just down-voted you instead of replying to your question.

Oh man, I second that Russ, my ignore works perfectly on him, but man is it fucking annoying when it comes up ten times in a row "You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options ?"  (without a single other post by anyone)

Groucho's a top bloke, who has some cool full size projects.

Russ what Doug does is copy other things from other designers and try to pass it all off as his own. All his foil shapes and ideas are just copies, like his "uptip" foils, which he claims is his own shape/design are an exact copy of the TNZ foils from 2012. I did my best to copy the principle behind TNZ foil from their AC 72 as did many other designers including Guillaume Verdier,  and Martin Fisher. My UptiP ama foils are unique in that they use washin to help the boat takeoff earlier. 

The fact is that my Fire Arrow Foil System was my own design done before anyone else on the planet. I was the first to use a foil on the daggerboard capable of downforce and wand controlled. The fact is I was the first designer to use UptiP foils on a trimaran ama. The Fact is that the two-stage ama on the Fire Arrow is unique and never seen before. 

 

 

He has even posted about copying them in the past, but has since changed his claims. He claims to be some sort of god at foiling/design, claiming 1000 hours (or some other insanely high number of hours) of Rave foiling, 200+ hours

but has no evidence whatsoever to this claim, and has been asked to produce something some shred of evidence, and still has never provided any evidence whatsoever, not even who's boat it was on, because he actually never had a foiler himself (he would have posted hundreds of photo's of it if he did, because he's posted literally thousands of times about the same model foiler, which has sailed 3 times for all of about 20 minutes in total, and kind-of worked for about 10 seconds of that (whilst the remaining 19 minutes and 50 seconds is pretty shameful - eg. constant nose-diving in 3 knots of wind, inability to tack, no sustained foiling for more than 10 seconds etc),

The fact is that the boat flew several times on her final day after a month and a half of testing and 4 years of development. I've described many times the unique light air conditions that day with relatively big waves  and yet she flew in a 5mph wind several times. She foiled very well and her foil system was excellent.

and it hasn't seen the water in 4 years. Seriously that little model he posts about all day every day has not sailed in 4 years. He himself hasn't sailed in decades. For over a decade I have seen people ask him to provide some evidence that he himself has actually done anything other than re-post other peoples content or copy other people's ideas and put them into his own models, and the only thing he has done is be a pest, who re-posts other peoples content. He constantly is contacting famous designers (for what reason?).

He joined the A-Class association to vote in the rules change when they voted as to allow/dis-allow insert from below foils.  I thought about doing that but never did. You are again outright lying.

 

He voted for the insert from below foils, in a class he has literally never sailed, has no involvement with and no future possibility of involvement. Fortunately the vote lost (and only BARELY so he almost made a difference! FFS) and in the end it turned out that the insert from above foils have been WAY better for the class, being quicker, beach launch-able, and requiring less crew-work whilst sailing. He literally destroyed the old moth forum  Funny, the largest Moth thread on any forum was started by me and is still on boatdesign.net ! It covers the whole development of the Moth Foiler.

 

(as a non-mothie I can't elaborate much more on this one, but you can see conversations on here of him arguing with Bora Gulari about moth sailing... (Doug having never sailed a moth and Bora being a multiple times world champion). Quite literally a great forum for moths and foiling was completely abandoned by all involved because of him.

 

Quote

Doug also spent months during and before the Americas cup this year posting completely incorrect information, basically stating that everyone was WRONG and disregarding all evidence to the contrary. He stated literally 100's of times that the teams were sailing with 1 set of all purpose uptip foils which used cant to be fast. What actually was the truth was that no teams sailed with 1 set of foils, they all had multiple different sets of foils, which NEVER used cant as that slowed them down, and none of the foils at all had up-turned tips", they were all using "L" shaped boards which use more complex control systems to control rake. I was wrong about my one foil idea but I was guessing just like everybody else. It was a theory that had more to it than you realize to this day.

He proceeded to use my sketches which I shared for everyone on SA to show the different board shapes the teams were using without my permission, and instead of with my information, completely disregarded that and posted the images with "these up-tip all-purpose foils use cant to cover the whole wind-range and be fastest from 5-25 knots of wind", when in-fact my sketches showed high-wind and low-wind foils catered to the 5-11 and 12-18 knot wind ranges, and that canting the boards reduces speed drastically but can increase the stability of life from the foil. Your sketches like mine were publically available after you posted them-I always gave you credit though many of the sketches were wrong.

Unlike the many of us who want to help people Doug provides incorrect information to those beginners or people interested in learning about the subject, he never explains why anyone else may be incorrect, Just made up BS as you would know if you understood why I go to the trouble of maintaining one of the longest threads on boatdesign.net about the detailed development of the Fire Arrow and the Fire Arrow Foil System!  (under multihulls)

 

he just says they are WRONG and calls them idiots. Unfortunately most of us aren't retired old men who don't sail, we are full time working sailors who do not have anywhere near the time to post as he does, so effectively there's 11000 posts of his on here, and the fantastic and helpful people have a mere few hundred posts. So to any new person he appears to be really "on the ball", when in-fact he's pretty much the farthest from the ball.

He also doesn't stop fucking name dropping, I feel really sorry for the famous people he name-drops constantly, you can't even know if he's just making shit up or if they genuinely responded (I assume out of pity, or worry of having their name tarnished). 

After all of this, he'll probably reply with "BULLSHIT YOU ARE JUST SOME LYING PUNK IDIOT" but not actually provide a shred of evidence to show any of the points above. Which is all we have asked for, for years.

You outright lie, embellish the truth with twisted falsehoods  and distort the facts every chance you get. When it comes to the Fire Arrow and the Fire Arrow Foil System you simply don't know what you're talking about.

 

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 I did my best to copy the principle behind TNZ foil from their AC 72 as did many other designers including Guillaume Verdier,  and Martin Fisher. My UptiP ama foils are unique in that they use washin to help the boat takeoff earlier. 

Okay, so you copied someone, put it onto your own model. 

The fact is that my Fire Arrow Foil System was my own design done before anyone else on the planet. I was the first to use a foil on the daggerboard capable of downforce and wand controlled. The fact is I was the first designer to use UptiP foils on a trimaran ama. The Fact is that the two-stage ama on the Fire Arrow is unique and never seen before. 

Okay, this is the thread for the Gitana Maxi, which only uses the main foil for lift, different to yours, also doesn't use wants, again different to yours.

Let me also add, yours has one rudder with foil, no amas rudders, again very different from Gitana.

Gitana - 3 dagger foils - all rake controlled, 3 rudders with T foils, 3 full length hulls and a narrowed beam than length.

Fire arrow, 3 dagger foils - 2 fixed, 1 wand controlled, 1 rudder with T foil, 1 full length hull with pods at a much wider beam than length.

200+ hours

Okay, prove it, I mean you took photos of Osprey the foiling trimaran which you saw once and didn't sail, but you sailed a rave, what 100 times and never took one photo? Never took a video? Was no one else there? Where was the owner of the boat? I'm happy to prove any claims I make like this, and have plenty of records on what I've sailed, from photos to race results on everything from lasers to Hobies to Tornados to Farriers all the way up to big cruising cats. Also have sailed with and against many people on here, even sailed with and against people you have quoted on here, and see them all on a weekly basis.

The fact is that the boat flew several times on her final day after a month and a half of testing and 4 years of development. I've described many times the unique light air conditions that day with relatively big waves  and yet she flew in a 5mph wind several times. She foiled very well and her foil system was excellent.

Again, you only have about 10 seconds of NOT excellent flight on video. No sustained flight, the video shows 10 minutes of the boat struggling around and 10 seconds of foiling, and no video of the boat in any more than 5mph of wind?! Seriously I literally don't even bother going out in those conditions, I don't even really like sailing in less than 10 knots cause you don't find out anything on a boat in those conditions. If you really want to test something, push it till it breaks in 25 knots. Do you know how Mr Hobie tested his Hobie cats? The dude took out the Hobie 16 prototype with 4 people in 25 knots of wind and 10' waves! Only after that was he comfortable selling his boat to the public.

Funny, the largest Moth thread on any forum was started by me and is still on boatdesign.net ! It covers the whole development of the Moth Foiler.

Funny, the biggest moth thread in your opinion is a thread by someone who has never sailed a moth. Because the literal moth forum was killed by you years ago. Where are all the top moth sailors saying stuff like "thank you for all your effort in running the greatest moth thread of all time".
 

 I was wrong about my one foil idea but I was guessing just like everybody else. It was a theory that had more to it than you realize to this day.

I was not guessing, and had literally every point right all along. Yet you said I was wrong countless times. Then I turned out to be completely right. You were wrong about literally the entire foil control and shape. What more was I not realizing? 

Your sketches like mine were publically available after you posted them-I always gave you credit though many of the sketches were wrong.

Yes, I'm not upset about people sharing them, hell they even were featured in other places not just SA. What I was upset about was them being shared with miss-information. You literally spoke about there being one set of all purpose up-tip foils for each team while the sketch you shared clearly showed 2 different "L" shaped foils for each team. Also... seriously, many of them were wrong? Mate it was the best study or all the foils used in the cup posted on the entire internet. (Please if anyone has done better I would love to see them, and commend the person who documented them, but I shared my sketches because literally no one else had done anything similar).

You outright lie, embellish the truth with twisted falsehoods  and distort the facts every chance you get. When it comes to the Fire Arrow and the Fire Arrow Foil System you simply don't know what you're talking about.

As I said, he would say that I am lying, I only care about the facts, nothing is a great success without extensive testing, and I'm talking hundreds of hours of tuning and testing, not 4 x 30 minute test sails. I and many others want to see you put that thing on the water for another 100 hours, in 5-25 knots of wind, and actually refine it, not just share the same old information on it. It literally never sailed in over 5 knots of wind. I don't even go sailing if that's the forecast.

 

5943654471165_ACTEAMSDAGGERBOARDS.thumb.png.16d236059144d4357d3797d799a0212c.png

I obviously don't know what I'm talking about here, nor do I go sailing... Oh wait, maybe I know a little bit, but that's why I read online because I wan't to learn more to improve my sailing and builds, oh and I sail a few times a week... 4 races and 1 training session this week and 10 hours in the workshop working on my current build.

P.s. Dying to see some more rules RE: the new AC class, can't wait to do some doodling there >.<

P.p.s. Please just keep this thread to Gitana's Maxis, as the title states, the only real comparison with it is the new Banque Populaire trimaran.

P.p.p.s. Dear all be prepared to just get a downvote now from Doug the moment you disagree with him.

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30 minutes ago, darth reapius said:

 The fact is that my Fire Arrow Foil System was my own design done before anyone else on the planet. I was the first to use a foil on the daggerboard capable of downforce and wand controlled. The fact is I was the first designer to use UptiP foils on a trimaran ama. The Fact is that the two-stage ama on the Fire Arrow is unique and never seen before. 

Okay, this is the thread for the Gitana Maxi, which only uses the main foil for lift, different to yours, also doesn't use wants, again different to yours.

Let me also add, yours has one rudder with foil, no amas rudders, again very different from Gitana.

Gitana - 3 dagger foils - all rake controlled, 3 rudders with T foils, 3 full length hulls and a narrowed beam than length.

Fire arrow, 3 dagger foils - 2 fixed, 1 wand controlled, 1 rudder with T foil, 1 full length hull with pods at a much wider beam than length.

 

The basic principle of the Fire Arrow Foil System is an adjustable daggerboard main foil that lifts vertically and provides downforce as needed in combination with UptiP ama foils used one at a time and a rudder t-foil(s). Gitana 17 has all of that- the extra rudder t-foils are a slight difference due to the size of the boat and other factors. Gitana 17 ,according to Guillaume Verdier uses ama foils that" work like the TNZ AC 72 foils"-in other words UptiP foils because of their automatic altitude control.  The Gitana 17 mainfoil has a flap that allows downforce when required.

The Gitana foil system works on the same principle and in much the same way as pioneered by Fire Arrow-that's just a fact. As do the foil systems on Maserati and on Banque Populaire.

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Jeez this dick measuring contest is getting out of hand!!!
Cant you guy just buy a hummer like all other small dicked Americans and leave these forums?

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Are the foils in the floats and rudders adjustable while they are sailing?  

How do they build the floats to ensure that the foil doesn't damage them if it hits a container at high speed?

For those who find Russ' post on 28 October a bit cryptic, here is the back story.    A while ago Groucho wrote a brilliant book about New Zealand yachting history,  LightBrigade.pdf    

In it he wrote the following, amongst a lot of other interesting stuff: 

Begin edited quote:  For generations there has been animosity between monohull and multihull sailors, centreboarders against keel boats,  catamaran and trimaran - but the factions between the differing proa designs has escalated to a point far more intense than the other categories put together. The differing schools of thought intensified between the “traditional” Pacific flying proa platforms with their wire stayed rigs from Russell Brown in the US - and the Denney-type Pacific proa called Harryproas from Australia with their accommodation weight in the outrigger hull while having the unstayed rigs in the longer, but uninhabited main hull. Although the differences sound slight they are in actuality very different. Having confronted the US camp with this commentary, Denney's dry humoured, practical and anarchic school of thought has infuriated them. Perhaps the most damning for the US proas is that their guru, the very skilled Russell Brown, (son of famed trimaran designer Jim Brown) who has ocean travelled extensively in his 36 and 37 foot Pacific proas Jzerro and Kauri has, after originally writing in Wooden Boat that his proa designs were unsuitable for ocean crossings, now backtracked and refutes earlier claims. He does not recommend that they be used for this purpose. The largest problems seem to be the old capsize bugbear, shifting ballast to the windward float and the added danger that the rig could come down in an accidental gybe.   The rig is naturally stayed on both sides of the platform but the leeward side is from the sponson but this is too narrow based for mast staying solidity. 

However Russ Brown, completely in tune and vastly experienced with his boats having designed and built them, feels there are few sailors capable of keeping his proa type on its feet and the rig erect. Therefore now he discourages others from taking his designs offshore - and hence there are small numbers of his sailing designs in existence. 

On the other hand the secure and safer to handle, freestanding rig Harryproa models are quite popular, relatively proa speaking, with examples sailing and being built in a number of countries – and Denney has let this be known Anzac style, pointing out US Pacific proa design deficiencies – to the horror and disgust of the somewhat spiritualistic Brown proa advocates.  end quote

Ever since he read this, Russ (and his fan club members, although these are getting a bit thin on the ground these days) has spent much of his time on the web trying to prove to Groucho that he is a nice guy so that Groucho will rewrite the chapter.  He spends the rest trolling me to prove that what Groucho wrote is correct.  It would be amusing if this much angst wasn't unhealthy.  

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30 minutes ago, harryproa said:

after originally writing in Wooden Boat that his proa designs were unsuitable for ocean crossings, now backtracked and refutes earlier claims. He does not recommend that they be used for this purpose.

It looks like a typo error here.

Should that read : ".....proa designs were suitable for ocean crossings...".

That would make the sentence make sense.

 

 

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Correct, Doughaines - the quote as printed here above in Rob Denney's thread must have been from an earlier rough; here it is as written in Light Brigade:

 Perhaps the most damning for the US proas is that their guru, the very skilled Russell Brown, (son of famed trimaran designer Jim Brown) who has ocean travelled extensively in his 36 and 37 foot Pacific proas Jzerro and Kauri has, after originally writing in Wooden Boat that his proa designs were suitable for ocean crossings, now backtracked and refutes earlier claims.

However Russ Brown, completely in tune and vastly experienced with his boats having designed and built them, feels there are few sailors capable of keeping his proa type on its feet and the rig erect. Therefore now he discourages others from taking his designs offshore - and hence the result that there are small numbers of his sailing designs in existence.

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The original text from Wooden Boat magazine.   Not sure if Russ still agrees with this or not, or whether he has changed the basic design to correct the shortcomings, but these were some of the things I corrected when I designed harryproas.

Screen Shot 2017-11-03 at 10.51.03 AM.png

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Rob, You must be feeling desperate for attention to still be flogging this dead horse. How long are you going to keep this up?

I really think that you need to actually show that your designs work instead of bashing my well proven designs decade after decade. Has this really proven to be a good marketing tool? What kind of moron buys a design from someone who proves his designs from words alone? Prove that your designs work Rob, or else stop this petty belittling bullshit. If I don't want to endorse my designs for amateurs to cross oceans in, that's my business, not yours. Quoting things I may (or may not) have said in 1985 for the umpteenth time is just petty bullshit. 

If I was just a bit more like you Rob, I would have given my real opinion of your boats publicly. So far, I just ask you to prove what you say about your boats. To date there is very little of that. 

Again, enter a fucking race to show that your boats can complete a race, let alone sail better than anything else, as you have always said. How about testimony from one of your multitude of customers stating that one of your designs can actually go to windward respectably. Show us video of one sailing fast in rough water. I'm not talking about reaching on a nice day off the sunshine coast (don't post that again), I'm talking about real wind and waves upwind and downwind. Until you can do that, stop this creepy bullshit.

 

Groucho, what you wrote is inaccurate to say the least. Where did you get the information for your book? I don't recall you interviewing me. What do you plan to correct this?

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So, what do you guys think of our 1/4 tonner's blooper?  Seems as relevant to Gitana 17 as most of this thread.

 

20196952_397763677284615_855218263_n.png

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Gitana Foiling-note canted wingmast:
picture by Benoit Stichelbaut/Gitana SA

Gitana 17 foiling photo by Benoit Stichelbaut  Gitana SA ..jpg 11-2-17.jpg

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Wow this thread has everything!

  • Outlandish claims disconnected from logic and reason
  • The (never ending) Proa debate
  • Bloopers

Why would anyone want to hang out anywhere else?

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1 hour ago, swangtang said:

Wow this thread has everything!

  • Outlandish claims disconnected from logic and reason
  • The (never ending) Proa debate
  • Bloopers

Why would anyone want to hang out anywhere else?

That’s why we all love multihulls sooooooooooooo much. 

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3 hours ago, swangtang said:

Wow this thread has everything!

  • Outlandish claims disconnected from logic and reason
  • The (never ending) Proa debate
  • Bloopers

Why would anyone want to hang out anywhere else?

Because they would be interested in actually learning something other than the age old lesson that if you are going to brag, you better stfu and show up on the racecourse first

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7 hours ago, swangtang said:

Wow this thread has everything!

  • Outlandish claims disconnected from logic and reason
  • The (never ending) Proa debate
  • Bloopers

Why would anyone want to hang out anywhere else?

Yep, it's pretty awful.  I wish several of the members here would get Twitter accounts instead of posting on SA.  Then they might actually grasp how few people give a shit about their "ground breaking" vaporware.  Fantastic work by VPLP and Verdier though.  Nothing here compares to thier accomplishments with these latest craft, period.

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r.finn,

The blooper brings back memories.  I trimmed one almost all the way to Hobart in 1976.  Boat was an upwind machine, got a downwind race. The previous year, the opposite, finished dfl on corrected time.  The following year got 2nd on corrected in an early Farr One tonner, which is also in Groucho's book.     Your boat looks good, but if the pole angle is right, I suspect the blooper is pulling more sideways than ahead.     

Russ,  

That little outburst of sour grapes should really help the 'Brown nose Groucho' campaign. ;-)     Read the book (or at least the chapter on harryproas) and it is obvious why interviewing you would make no difference to what he wrote.  It is about you and your fan club's bad behaviour, and how I benefitted from it, not your excuses for it.   It is an example of what the book is all about;  kiwi yacht designers going up against entrenched orthodoxy and demonstrating a better way.   Regardless, an interview would be a great read.  Go for it, Gaz, and let me know if you want some questions ;-)

You stalk me all over the forums with the same mud slinging about "proof" that I have been supplying for years.  One of us is "creepy" and it ain't me.        

For the umpteenth time: I raced the early prototypes in Perth and Fremantle (home of the windy America's Cup), later ones in Brisbane and the Dutch and Finnish 50' cruisers have also raced.   Results were as expected, based on weight, sail area, length and crew ability.  Why would they be anything else?    Aroha, an overloaded 40'ter crossed the Tasman Sea, surviving a 45 knot gale.  It broke a ring frame, which was nothing to do with it being a harryproa.  The owners description of the voyage and his endorsement of the boat is at http://harryproa.com/?p=1759#more-1759.   All the others have done exactly what their owners wanted them to do (none of which was cross oceans), the first one is almost 20 years old, still going strong in the Timor Sea as far as I know.    None of the large ones have been sold as the owners are happy with them.  Several owners endorsements are on the Yahoo harryproa chat group or FaceBook page.         Harryproas work.  Get used to it.

If proof was required that cautious cruising offshore does not prove a boat type then Team Pure and Wild provides it.   TPW was  sailed by Olympic sailors who pulled out of it's first and only race, stating it could not be sailed in more than 6 knots of breeze.   

If you were "a little bit like me", you would openly discuss your boats and mine, instead of following me around yelling Denney is a liar, then slinking off.  I would love to hear your comments on my boats, and what you think I am lying about.  

I understand that it pisses you off that I am selling plans and you aren't,  but the solution is not to denigrate me or my clients.  It is to design boats that make sense,  instead of difficult to sail, unsafe ones.   

Calling harryproa owners "morons" is low, even by your standards.   The answer to your question is that they are a broad and varied bunch of really nice people who are not scared to try something that makes sense, rather than follow the herd with things that don't.  Many of them have a lot of sea miles, some are relatively new to sailing.  They value comfort, performance and cost effectiveness over hype, advertising and flowery magazine articles.  They question everything I say, then make their decisions after checking on the logic, examples, facts and figures I use to support it.  

It is entirely up to you whether you endorse your boats for amateurs or not.  And whether you do so in one of the world's most read magazines.  Maybe you should  put a disclaimer on the Madness kits saying they are only for professional sailors?   Incidentally, another well known and experienced antipodean jounalist (CT49), has stated on Boat Design.net that "my clear message (is) that the Brown proas are not suitable for most people to sail offshore". Comments like these and yours are not going to look good if someone is unfortunate enough to have an accident.  1985 was indeed a long time ago.  But it does not appear that you have done anything to fix the problems you referred to then, so it is still relevant.

Is this the video you don't want people to see?  The one with a 3.5 ton $350,000, 50' cruiser sailing effortlessly at wind speed with no extras? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA&t=254s  or was it this one of a home built 25'ter being comfortably cruised up and down the rugged, windy West Australian coast, solo.   Makes an interesting comparison with TPW, don't you think?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP2cYwi-f2I   Perhaps you'd prefer this one of the 66'ter just launched in Portugal? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIFDforLxBY&t=4s  or another 66'ter, this one a 4 tonner designed and built by it's owner from infused flat honey comb cored panels https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=1fsxnaYi-PM or this one of another 50 being sailed and shunted by a group of sight impaired first time sailors in Holland, something it has been doing for 10 years. It includes an 8 second shunt in 20 knots (13 minutes).    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wftyqI2aJlo&t=3s   or maybe this one of a folding harry (not my design) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xVNGXqGPtE  in New Zealand?   Or this one of the 50'ter in the Brisbane Gladstone race?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pOsgqrO59A   Given your WB comments on your difficulty sleeping on your boats,  and the risk of losing your mast when you gybe, the following might be of interest about the B-G.  At 1 am on the first night, we were broad reaching up the coast in 20 knots of breeze under full sail.  I was asleep down below, the owner (on his first ever race) accidentally gybed.  The sails weathercocked and the boat drifted.  While the owner was getting back on course,  I went on deck,  sheeted it on,  then went back to bed.  Because of the unstayed mast and  balanced rig, there was no banging or slamming, no fear of the "rig being blown away" (quote from Cruising World magazine about your boat), no sails to be lowered and rehoisted and no fear of a wrong way capsize.  Shortly afterwards a poorly engineered stainless steel rudder gudgeon failed due to crevice corrosion and we pulled out.   The full story is on the chat group.

These are warts and all videos.  Plenty for you to criticise/discuss in them.  There are others on www.harryproa.com.  

You ask how long am I going to keep this up?  Dunno, but at least until you and your fan club stop providing me with ammunition and targets.   My posts are all in response to aggressive or obnoxious posts by you or your fan club.    Stop posting and I will have no need to.  Most of your fan club appears to understand this,  seems you are the only one who doesn't. 

Swangtang,

This is not about proas, it is about Russ not liking the way I quote articles in Wooden Boat, Cruising World and Facebook to point out the drawbacks in his designs that aren't in harryproas.   If it was about proas, he would be discussing proas.   He isn't and hasn't for a long time.     Now that he is getting angry (when someone as laid back as Russ starts swearing unnecessarily on a forum, it is a pretty good bet that they are angry), it is probably time he took a couple of deep breaths and asked himself whether it is worth the stress.  

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At 10:22 Eastern Gitana in the lead and faster!

Go Gitana!!

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Sodebo(30kts) and Gitana(29.8kts) about the same speed with Sodebo slightly faster at the moment. Gitana leading by 3 NM.

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Rob Denney is a detestable, shameless lying piece of shit.  If his designs had ever produced results like those demonstrated repeatedly by Russ Brown's Jzerro, we would have seen it by now, but they simply don't exist.  Denney has been attacking Russell Brown and claiming superior boats for eighteen years, yet has never proved anything.

 

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Gitana pulling away-now 3.7nm ahead and faster....

 

Go Gitana!!

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On 28/10/2017 at 12:36 PM, basildog said:

DoUgIe O Foily King,

please quote the names of these "top foiler designers" and what did they say exactly.

I'd be interested to hear more on this as well. 

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Gitana faster and now over 6nm ahead. Speed between Gitana and Sodebo relatively close but Gitana faster so far. The "Prince..." is about the same speed as the multi 50's.

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Doug - do you have a Twitter account? If you want to tweet a commentary on a race, that would be the right place for it.

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Thanks David, but this is a fine place for commentary on the most exciting trimaran in history......

GO Gitana!!!

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6 hours ago, harryproa said:

r.finn,

The blooper brings back memories.  I trimmed one almost all the way to Hobart in 1976.  Boat was an upwind machine, got a downwind race. The previous year, the opposite, finished dfl on corrected time.  The following year got 2nd on corrected in an early Farr One tonner, which is also in Groucho's book.     Your boat looks good, but if the pole angle is right, I suspect the blooper is pulling more sideways than ahead.     

Russ,  

That little outburst of sour grapes should really help the 'Brown nose Groucho' campaign. ;-)     Read the book (or at least the chapter on harryproas) and it is obvious why interviewing you would make no difference to what he wrote.  It is about you and your fan club's bad behaviour, and how I benefitted from it, not your excuses for it.   It is an example of what the book is all about;  kiwi yacht designers going up against entrenched orthodoxy and demonstrating a better way.   Regardless, an interview would be a great read.  Go for it, Gaz, and let me know if you want some questions ;-)

You stalk me all over the forums with the same mud slinging about "proof" that I have been supplying for years.  One of us is "creepy" and it ain't me.        

For the umpteenth time: I raced the early prototypes in Perth and Fremantle (home of the windy America's Cup), later ones in Brisbane and the Dutch and Finnish 50' cruisers have also raced.   Results were as expected, based on weight, sail area, length and crew ability.  Why would they be anything else?    Aroha, an overloaded 40'ter crossed the Tasman Sea, surviving a 45 knot gale.  It broke a ring frame, which was nothing to do with it being a harryproa.  The owners description of the voyage and his endorsement of the boat is at http://harryproa.com/?p=1759#more-1759.   All the others have done exactly what their owners wanted them to do (none of which was cross oceans), the first one is almost 20 years old, still going strong in the Timor Sea as far as I know.    None of the large ones have been sold as the owners are happy with them.  Several owners endorsements are on the Yahoo harryproa chat group or FaceBook page.         Harryproas work.  Get used to it.

If proof was required that cautious cruising offshore does not prove a boat type then Team Pure and Wild provides it.   TPW was  sailed by Olympic sailors who pulled out of it's first and only race, stating it could not be sailed in more than 6 knots of breeze.   

If you were "a little bit like me", you would openly discuss your boats and mine, instead of following me around yelling Denney is a liar, then slinking off.  I would love to hear your comments on my boats, and what you think I am lying about.  

I understand that it pisses you off that I am selling plans and you aren't,  but the solution is not to denigrate me or my clients.  It is to design boats that make sense,  instead of difficult to sail, unsafe ones.   

Calling harryproa owners "morons" is low, even by your standards.   The answer to your question is that they are a broad and varied bunch of really nice people who are not scared to try something that makes sense, rather than follow the herd with things that don't.  Many of them have a lot of sea miles, some are relatively new to sailing.  They value comfort, performance and cost effectiveness over hype, advertising and flowery magazine articles.  They question everything I say, then make their decisions after checking on the logic, examples, facts and figures I use to support it.  

It is entirely up to you whether you endorse your boats for amateurs or not.  And whether you do so in one of the world's most read magazines.  Maybe you should  put a disclaimer on the Madness kits saying they are only for professional sailors?   Incidentally, another well known and experienced antipodean jounalist (CT49), has stated on Boat Design.net that "my clear message (is) that the Brown proas are not suitable for most people to sail offshore". Comments like these and yours are not going to look good if someone is unfortunate enough to have an accident.  1985 was indeed a long time ago.  But it does not appear that you have done anything to fix the problems you referred to then, so it is still relevant.

Is this the video you don't want people to see?  The one with a 3.5 ton $350,000, 50' cruiser sailing effortlessly at wind speed with no extras? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA&t=254s  or was it this one of a home built 25'ter being comfortably cruised up and down the rugged, windy West Australian coast, solo.   Makes an interesting comparison with TPW, don't you think?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP2cYwi-f2I   Perhaps you'd prefer this one of the 66'ter just launched in Portugal? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIFDforLxBY&t=4s  or another 66'ter, this one a 4 tonner designed and built by it's owner from infused flat honey comb cored panels https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=1fsxnaYi-PM or this one of another 50 being sailed and shunted by a group of sight impaired first time sailors in Holland, something it has been doing for 10 years. It includes an 8 second shunt in 20 knots (13 minutes).    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wftyqI2aJlo&t=3s   or maybe this one of a folding harry (not my design) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xVNGXqGPtE  in New Zealand?   Or this one of the 50'ter in the Brisbane Gladstone race?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pOsgqrO59A   Given your WB comments on your difficulty sleeping on your boats,  and the risk of losing your mast when you gybe, the following might be of interest about the B-G.  At 1 am on the first night, we were broad reaching up the coast in 20 knots of breeze under full sail.  I was asleep down below, the owner (on his first ever race) accidentally gybed.  The sails weathercocked and the boat drifted.  While the owner was getting back on course,  I went on deck,  sheeted it on,  then went back to bed.  Because of the unstayed mast and  balanced rig, there was no banging or slamming, no fear of the "rig being blown away" (quote from Cruising World magazine about your boat), no sails to be lowered and rehoisted and no fear of a wrong way capsize.  Shortly afterwards a poorly engineered stainless steel rudder gudgeon failed due to crevice corrosion and we pulled out.   The full story is on the chat group.

These are warts and all videos.  Plenty for you to criticise/discuss in them.  There are others on www.harryproa.com.  

You ask how long am I going to keep this up?  Dunno, but at least until you and your fan club stop providing me with ammunition and targets.   My posts are all in response to aggressive or obnoxious posts by you or your fan club.    Stop posting and I will have no need to.  Most of your fan club appears to understand this,  seems you are the only one who doesn't. 

Swangtang,

This is not about proas, it is about Russ not liking the way I quote articles in Wooden Boat, Cruising World and Facebook to point out the drawbacks in his designs that aren't in harryproas.   If it was about proas, he would be discussing proas.   He isn't and hasn't for a long time.     Now that he is getting angry (when someone as laid back as Russ starts swearing unnecessarily on a forum, it is a pretty good bet that they are angry), it is probably time he took a couple of deep breaths and asked himself whether it is worth the stress.  

Methinks thou dost protest too much!

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Gitana now 8.9NM ahead and still faster.......

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As I keep saying, there is eventually going to be an awful lot of humble pie eaten once these relatively new beasts get fully up to speed.

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Please don't confuse people taking issue with a particular poster whose relentless promotion of a 30 year old concept as the greatest leap forward in trimaran racing ever and his claimed ownership of the concept, as criticism of Gitana 17.

Or maybe it's the proa discussion you're referring to? :D

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Delusional LoRd, like a yappy school girl (no, that is insulting to school girls),  fantasy crew member on board G17, either helming with panache or trimming traveller with expertise, he is there, D.elusion ridden LoRd, being existential, living the moment and essential to the well being of "his" creation. Step aside Guillaume; you've been replaced by the real genius.

I'm sure the real Gitana crew would welcome the inflated turkey aboard as a phantom crew; maybe they could drop him over the stern at midnight and not look back?

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Video from the other thread by Swearengen.

UPDATE-Gitana still in front but Sodebo hanging in there....

 

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Transat departure video-good shots of Gitana , Sodebo and the other boats:

 

 

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5 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

As I keep saying, there is eventually going to be an awful lot of humble pie eaten once these relatively new beasts get fully up to speed.

 

3 hours ago, RobG said:

Please don't confuse people taking issue with a particular poster whose relentless promotion of a 30 year old concept as the greatest leap forward in trimaran racing ever and his claimed ownership of the concept, as criticism of Gitana 17.

Or maybe it's the proa discussion you're referring to? :D

Spot on RobG. What I have objected to is Doug using "false news" stories about races to make claims about boats. Winning a race because of a navigation error by a competitor doesn't prove a boat is faster. Finishing close behind when a boat has half of the gear needed to go faster isn't an excuse, because it should have been the same speed some of the time and faster at others.

There is no doubt that the foiling tris can be quicker than the non foiling ones, when conditions are right. What is still uncertain is whether over the course of, say, a year and many events, will the foilers be consistently faster or not. I am not sure anybody can answer that at the moment, but it would be a huge surprise if they didn't get some results due to the foils.

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Gitana 17 on foils:   Gitana still has the lead in the Transat-about 13 miles ahead of Sodebo. But Sodebo is hanging in-one mistake or breakdown on Gitana and Sodebo will pounce.

picture by Yann Riou:

Gitana Foiling!.jpg

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13 hours ago, RobG said:

Please don't confuse people taking issue with a particular poster whose relentless promotion of a 30 year old concept as the greatest leap forward in trimaran racing ever and his claimed ownership of the concept, as criticism of Gitana 17.

Or maybe it's the proa discussion you're referring to? :D

Absolute nonsense!  No boat 30* years ago used an adjustable mainfoil on the daggerboard capable of providing downforce in combination with UptiP ama foils-used because they provide automatic altitude control -with a rudder t-foil or foils. Just made up BS!

or 20 or 10...

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Gitana Foiling: she is now doing 21.3 kts and is (coincidently) 21.3 NM ahead of Sodebo!

Go Gitana!

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4 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

daggerboard capable of providing downforce

I still don't understand why this is a good thing, why would you want to have one foil acting as a break against the other lifting foils? 

Also i can't find the post but I thought you said that Guillaume Verdier was worried about the down force loads ripping Maserati apart and that though capable it was never used in that capacity. 

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What he said about Maserati is that you have to be very careful when using downforce. Downforce is essential  to allow the foil to control stability-you don't want the main foil just lifting or the whole thing could go wrong. Don't forget that the heeling force from the rig also lifts the main hull and there will be times where you want to hold the mainhull down rather than let it lift too far particularly in waves. The mainfoil needs to be able to lift and pull down to effectively add to stability.

 

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Gitana Foiling: she is now 46 miles ahead of Sodebo-and faster.....

Go Gitana!

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17 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

Absolute nonsense!  No boat 30* years ago used an adjustable mainfoil on the daggerboard capable of providing downforce in combination with UptiP ama foils-used because they provide automatic altitude control -with a rudder t-foil or foils. Just made up BS!

or 20 or 10...

Here you say that the system on Maserati is "…identical to the Fire Arrow Foil System in function", ignoring differences such as not using a flap on the main foil or wands for height control and the obvious differences in all the foil shapes. Then you dismiss the work of Derek Kelsall and Eugene Rigudel because on their boat the main foil on the centreboard wasn't adjustable while sailing and their float foils were a different shape.

Using your criteria for comparison with Maserati, It can well be said that your configuration is identical in function to Kelsall and Rigudel's, since their main foil was intended to lift the main hull and float foils to provide automatic height control on an almost identical principle to J foils.

You put together features from other boats then claimed to have a "100% scale Test Model using a foiling configuration never before used in the history of mankind" when in fact the configuration of a trimaran with lifting foils on the floats and main hull had been used in the late 1970s. Your changes were to use float foils similar to then state–of–the–art foils from ETNZ's AC catamaran (subsequently superseded by much better shapes) and a wand controlled main foil used by numerous other boats. Even the shape of your main foil and flap is extremely dated and nothing like that used on Maserati.

So I guess you're right in one sense, the Kelsall and Rigudel boat wasn't 30 years ago, it was nearly 40 years ago. :P

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7 hours ago, RobG said:

Here you say that the system on Maserati is "…identical to the Fire Arrow Foil System in function", ignoring differences such as not using a flap on the main foil or wands for height control and the obvious differences in all the foil shapes. Then you dismiss the work of Derek Kelsall and Eugene Rigudel because on their boat the main foil on the centreboard wasn't adjustable while sailing and their float foils were a different shape.

Using your criteria for comparison with Maserati, It can well be said that your configuration is identical in function to Kelsall and Rigudel's, since their main foil was intended to lift the main hull and float foils to provide automatic height control on an almost identical principle to J foils.

You put together features from other boats then claimed to have a "100% scale Test Model using a foiling configuration never before used in the history of mankind" when in fact the configuration of a trimaran with lifting foils on the floats and main hull had been used in the late 1970s. Your changes were to use float foils similar to then state–of–the–art foils from ETNZ's AC catamaran (subsequently superseded by much better shapes) and a wand controlled main foil used by numerous other boats. Even the shape of your main foil and flap is extremely dated and nothing like that used on Maserati.

So I guess you're right in one sense, the Kelsall and Rigudel boat wasn't 30 years ago, it was nearly 40 years ago. :P

You're so wrong. A wand controlled main foil on a trimaran was first used on Fire Arrow-no other trimaran ever. This is a vast oversimplification-there's a big difference between this and the Fire Arrow Foil System and the similar version used on Maserati, Gitana 17 and Banque Populaire. Not until Fire Arrow were ama foils using the TNZ UptiP configuration used. Uptip foils automatically control altitude and can be designed to do so regardless of speed(as opposed to surface piercing foils). All these boats-  starting with Fire Arrow- don't just use lift on the main foil-they have a system to allow adjustment of the mainfoil to create downforce. On the Fire Arrow this is automatic and has NEVER been used on the main foil of a trimaran before Fire Arrow.

The basics with Maserati and Fire Arrow are similar including, most importantly, the ability to use downforce . The basic Fire Arrow Foil System includes an adjustable main foil working with an UptiP ama foil(or an "L" foil installed at an angle so that when it is immersed it works like an UptiP foil) and a rudder Tfoil or foils. The differences are those one would expect of a 19.5' boat(5.5' test model) compared to a 70 foot trimaran conversion. The principle of the foil system is identical. Same on Gitana(only more so) and on Banque Populaire.

You gloss over the most important details to try to make a completely invalid, uninformed point.

==========================

PS-Charles H used small lifting foils on the daggerboard that were not adjustable. Reguidel used foils on each side of the main hull that were not adjustable and neither of these incarnations or any other were capable of flying the boat. Charles H. used surface piercing ama foils but was too heavy to fly and had no rudder T-foil.  A surface piercing ama foil coupled with a fixed lift main foil is an unstable combination because altitude is constantly changing with speed on the surface piercing foil but lift remains the same on the tiny main foil. None of these boats even comes close to the basic Fire Arrow Foil System as do Maserati, Gitana and Banque Populaire.

PS- as to TNZ's UptiP foils being superseded by much better shapes: yes they were for racing and these shapes required constant rake adjustment. The point of the TNZ UptiP foil on a trimaran is to have automatic altitude control without constant rake adjustment which was the most significant thing about the TNZ foil. The foil could be designed to maintain altitude regardless of speed(entirely different than a surface piercing foil) and this is what was required on the Fire Arrow, Maserati, Gitana 17(in Verdiers words) and Banque Populaire. It's pure uninformed nonsense to suggest that these foils were ever used on any trimaran before Fire Arrow.

PS- the shape of the Fire Arrow main foil with its partial span flap was done to allow the foil to be very thin. Far from being dated for the test model it was and is quite innovative and one of the few concessions to scale on the boat.

Fire Arrow mainfoil with partial span flap:

MPX Fire Arrow-endplates painted 002.JPG

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Gitana Foiling: she is now 58.9 miles ahead of Sodebo-and a bit slower right now....

Go Gitana!

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All those naysayers among you, I hope if Gitana 17 out there does win this race, will be man enough to go " yeah fair call ". But she is still only 50 odd miles ahead and that can all change in a few hours. Good luck to her though as she is a pretty exciting boat to say the least.

May I remind you what I wrote in 2016 on the Maserati thread " You got to also remember that these big Tris are averaging already 33 knots over nearly 4 days on the full Trans Atlantic run and taken 40 years of design and fettling to achieve that. Any new system is going have to improve on already highly developed systems and anything that is now developed will be only a small increment of a very long and extensive design path ".

My guess is that the centre board foils are just that, a small incremental evolution of a very long evolution path. However regardless of the past, my bet is that Ama foils and centre board foils are going to be now the standard for any new designs, I guess time will tell.

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2 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

Gitana Foiling: she is now 58.9 miles ahead of Sodebo-and a bit slower right now....

Go Gitana!

Now 74 miles ahead......

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All of us are full of (silent) praise for G17; it's just that this self inflated to beyond several hot air balloons has so permeated and polluted foiling multihull development threads with his inane and childish comments he has turned all enthusiasts around so that we don't have to observe the imbalanced to completely bonkers turkey.

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6 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

All those naysayers among you,...

I think you need to go back and read what people wrote. I don't remember naysayers. I remember people pointing out that "The Lord" was making all sorts of claims that were not supported by the facts. Don't mistake countering Doug's bullshit with negativity towards G17.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

I think you need to go back and read what people wrote. I don't remember naysayers. I remember people pointing out that "The Lord" wrts of claims that were not supported by the facts. Don't mistake countering Doug's bullshit with negativity towards G17.as making all so

Ridiculous!

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38 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Ridiculous!

Yes, some of your claims were ridiculous, such as when you tried to use race results as evidence of better performance when everybody else knew that the result was due to a mistake by the leading boat which had been faster.

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Gitana is 73.9 miles ahead and exactly one knot faster than Sodebo right now. Gitana is sailing in 3kts more breeze than Sodebo.
It looks like they'll both be running into an area of much lighter wind that extends down to their destination. Be interesting to see how Gitana does in those conditions.

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According to Guillaume Verdier: "  It goes two and a half times faster than the wind so it will take off as soon as there is 13 to 14 knots of wind speed." 

Right now it looks like they may run into wind less than their foiling threshold in a relatively short while. Sodebo has been catching over the last few hours.... . Gitana is 38.5 miles ahead. Seems like there may be a problem on Gitana....

Sodebo is doing 31.4 knots, Gitana 25.4

Go Gitana!

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Gitana is back up to speed 2 knots faster than Sodebo but only 18 miles separate them! I would imagine things will tighten up even more as they approach light air......

UPDATE: In the time it took me to post the sentence above Sodebo is now shown as being in the lead! Holy Shit that was quick....

say it ain't so........

https://www.transatjacquesvabre.org/en/map-and-ranking

 

Go Gitana!

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Gitana is 4kts faster just now but still 60+ miles behind....

 

Go Gitana!

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Gitana is doing 26 knots vs Sodebo's 16.2 ! Gitana is smoking-and has whittled the distance she is behind down from 60 to 29.4 miles. She has been faster for the last 6 hours...

Gitana!

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At 1:29pm Eastern Gitana is doing 27.9 knots vs Sodebo at 20.6. Gitana still 22 miles back.

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Seeing Doug doesn't like posting when his "baby" isn't doing as well, I note that Sodebo still leads by 23.3nm and is doing 28.5 knots vs Gitana doing 26.4 knots. Over the last 24 hours, their average speed has been as good as identical (Sodebo 0.1 knot faster).

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I hope it goes right to the wire as it will show just how good the non foiling boats are and how the new comers are just about on pace.

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Great, beautiful video of Gitana:

 

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