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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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2 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Foils do make these boats faster......................................when conditions are right. The problem is that you need to be able to sail in a wide range of conditions and unless you get lucky, for too much of the time, the drag penalty of the foils seems to slow you more than the times when you get benefit from the lift.

Yes, no doubt that foils are useful, but they aren't a magic bullet that will let a mug beat a champion (which adding foils to Moths certainly did) and more is not always better.

Gitana and Sodebo have just had a drag race over 1,000 nm downwind on a single tack in conditions that are about as favourable for foiling as can be expected in an ocean race, yet the central T foil doesn't seem to have made any difference. At the moment they're both doing over 30kn in breeze of 17 to 18 kn, ideal for foiling.

There are whispers that Gitana has some issues, so we might have to wait until the end to see what's gone wrong. They seemed to have more speed before the doldrums, but have lost it since.

The speed numbers on the tracker are interesting but misleading, the 1hr and 24hr numbers tell a much better story.

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It doesn't matter if Gitana had issues. That is what happens with ocean racing. If it was an issue with foils, it shows the risks  which Maserati have chosen not to take with their next record attempt. If it was an issue with something else, it shows that foils cannot overcome other problems. People can make as many excuses as they want, but it looks like another race where a straight fight has failed to show the foiler is the better option. I suspect there will be races where foilers win, but I don't yet see it becoming the norm.

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Interesting thing going on in the race. Because of the wind angle and the finish line, they cannot sail straight to it so while Sodebo has pulled out some serious distance in the last few hours (now nearly 50 nm ahead) the tracker is measuring it "incorrectly" and it looks like Gitana is catching up. The truth is that Sodebo is going faster and is pulling away.

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They are all foilers ... it's just that two or three? of the latest big tris have T foils on their main daggers beside their float and rudder foils ... and that appears to be one too many?  Drag is slow especially in light airs. A basic - learned years ago?

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A picture says 1,000 words. The gap may close as Sodebo hits softer breeze near the coast, but hard to lose from here. You'd have to think something (that affects both tacks) is going on to cause a widening of the gap.

 

Screen Shot 2017-11-13 at 16.17.13.png

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Foils is at the start of it development - these are the first gen. of ocean-going foilers. While the trad concept of not foiling can take som of the foilers advatages with curved foils to stabilize and maybe t-rudders to have better control - to fully foil is at the beginning. 

I think that we have to se boats that can foil at lower speeds - then you get an average rise of speed - as for now - they need a lot speed to take advantage of the foiling.

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1 hour ago, SeaGul said:

Foils is at the start of it development - these are the first gen. of ocean-going foilers. While the trad concept of not foiling can take som of the foilers advatages with curved foils to stabilize and maybe t-rudders to have better control - to fully foil is at the beginning. 

You need to go back to school and study history, and I am sure "The Lord" will strike me down for getting the exact number wrong, but i make this configuration either the 3rd (or is it 4th) generation of fully foiling ocean going foilers. All have suffered exactly the same problem - when conditions don't suit foiling, they are slow.

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Congratulations to Sodebo -they sailed a great race!  As best I can tell Gitanas race went sour when they made the course mistake and had to tack back west costing them well over 60 miles.Very unfortunate for Team Gitana. I don't think there's a problem with the boat- she sailed exceptionally well through the first half of the race but started the second half by going the wrong way. Very disappointing to say the least.

This result was due to a major ,irreversible, COURSE MISTAKE--not due to the foils.  She was very fast through the roughest part of the race

which showed how well the foil system works! The problem here was not with the boat or foils........

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1 hour ago, Doug Lord said:

Congratulations to Sodebo -they sailed a great race!  As best I can tell Gitanas race went sour when they made the course mistake and had to tack back west costing them well over 60 miles.Very unfortunate for Team Gitana. I don't think there's a problem with the boat- she sailed exceptionally well through the first half of the race but started the second half by going the wrong way. Very disappointing to say the least.

This result was due to a major ,irreversible, COURSE MISTAKE--not due to the foils.  She was very fast through the roughest part of the race

which showed how well the foil system works! The problem here was not with the boat or foils........

Funny how when Maserati won a race due to a navigation mistake by their opposition you kept banging on about how all that mattered was the result!

If a mistake cost them 60 miles and their foils weren't good enough to make that back, it doesn't say very much for the foiling set up, but that really ignores the big mistake in your comments. Gitana didn't make a mistake in their course and they didn't tack back. Gitana sailed their optimum course downwind, which was higher than Sodebo and meant they had to GYBE to get back west and actually sailed over 100nm to get back to the same track as Sodebo. If they had sailed deeper like Sodebo, they wouldn't have been as quick as they were, but that speed came at a price. Simply, Sodebo made better VMG and when Gitana got back to where they needed to be, they were behind. When you sail hot and higher, that is the risk you take. If Gitana had sailed the same angles as Sodebo, they would not have pulled out the same sort of lead.

You also ignore some simple truths. Gitana was behind for half the race when the race became a one way track. They trailed almost straight behind Sodebo and if they had a speed advantage , they should have overtaken Sodebo easily. As it happened, there were only fleeting moments of speed but for most of the time, they were slower, proving that Gitana doesn't have the all round ability needed for these long distance ocean races.

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I missed this completely this morning. In addition to the course mistake there was this-found by Gauchie :

On this her first trial run in race configuration and up against particularly stiff competition, the Transat Jacques Vabre has certainly lived up to expectations. The high standard of play pushed Sébastien Josse and Thomas Rouxel to their limits and has given them a better understanding of the fabulous machine that is the Maxi Edmond de Rothschild. Some technical incidents on the second day of racing, did however prevent the duo from expressing the true potential of Gitana 17 by forcing them to do battle without all their weapons. Indeed, in addition to the AIS black-out from the start, which could have had disastrous consequences in terms of the sailors' safety, the duo had to deal with repeated engine failure; damage which cost the skipper of Edmond de Rothschild many long hours in the bilges, whilst his co-skipper busied himself with maintaining the rhythm at over 30 knots. Last but not least, it's an injured bird', deprived of her wings', which has just pulled alongside in the Marina in Salvador de Bahia. Indeed, on Tuesday, after the front rolled through, the sailor from Nice informed his shore crew of serious damage to the boat's port foil. Unusable, the precious appendage was raised to avoid any further damage. Two days later, it was the turn of the starboard foil to show the same signs of damage as its twin. To put it plainly, our duo was deprived of her major assets for ¾ of the race, which explains the speed deficit everyone observed.

 

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3 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Funny how when Maserati won a race due to a navigation mistake by their opposition you kept banging on about how all that mattered was the result!

If a mistake cost them 60 miles and their foils weren't good enough to make that back, it doesn't say very much for the foiling set up, but that really ignores the big mistake in your comments. Gitana didn't make a mistake in their course and they didn't tack back. Gitana sailed their optimum course downwind, which was higher than Sodebo and meant they had to GYBE to get back west and actually sailed over 100nm to get back to the same track as Sodebo. If they had sailed deeper like Sodebo, they wouldn't have been as quick as they were, but that speed came at a price. Simply, Sodebo made better VMG and when Gitana got back to where they needed to be, they were behind. When you sail hot and higher, that is the risk you take. If Gitana had sailed the same angles as Sodebo, they would not have pulled out the same sort of lead.

You also ignore some simple truths. Gitana was behind for half the race when the race became a one way track. They trailed almost straight behind Sodebo and if they had a speed advantage , they should have overtaken Sodebo easily. As it happened, there were only fleeting moments of speed but for most of the time, they were slower, proving that Gitana doesn't have the all round ability needed for these long distance ocean races.

As with all new builds, I‎t takes time to dial her in and work out any deficiencies, I‎t looks like Gitana 17 has the potential too sail very quickly, and with time and more races under her belt, we will find out.  

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So yet again, an ocean racing foiler is slowed by damage to their foils. It's becoming a pattern.  No wonder that Maserati has taken her foils off in the name of reliability. Back to the drawing board........

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He predicted 8 days to do the race.

Did it in 7 days, 23 hours, 55 minutes and 24 seconds.

This was their first race, and there is only room for improvement. Foils are not the silver bullet in all conditions, but with more experience, I believe we will find they will become the weapon of choice.

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7 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

Congratulations to Sodebo -they sailed a great race!  As best I can tell Gitanas race went sour when they made the course mistake and had to tack back west costing them well over 60 miles.Very unfortunate for Team Gitana. I don't think there's a problem with the boat- she sailed exceptionally well through the first half of the race but started the second half by going the wrong way. Very disappointing to say the least.

This result was due to a major ,irreversible, COURSE MISTAKE--not due to the foils.  She was very fast through the roughest part of the race

which showed how well the foil system works! The problem here was not with the boat or foils........

You belligerent fucking idiot!!!

They posted on their website that they had failings on at least 2 foils, you've even reposted the link and text. 

You're really in need of some help from a professional in mental health care! 

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28 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

So yet again, an ocean racing foiler is slowed by damage to their foils. It's becoming a pattern.  No wonder that Maserati has taken her foils off in the name of reliability. Back to the drawing board........

Thats just bullshit-she removed her racing foils for her Asia trip so they wouldn't get damaged.

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Maserati shore crew just showed up in Waikiki and are working on the boat. What is next on their program?

?ui=2&ik=e5d06f1df9&view=fimg&th=15fb2371f26510a5&attid=0.7&disp=emb&attbid=ANGjdJ9Vf3IM2AvJ5Juc0TgFoyXaK5mmgmRrbvMOI4UlXFcIq4ZwzOCc04zO1YkLx9GrfkHEBnYAkPut6TL5dVst6LoEVYwSNnbc5dfuhT4UBS1xChc3TstsgR8O76Y&sz=s0-l75-ft&ats=1510530995610&rm=15fb2371f26510a5&zw&atsh=1

?ui=2&ik=e5d06f1df9&view=fimg&th=15fb2371f26510a5&attid=0.8&disp=emb&attbid=ANGjdJ8EIdUTAgMLlfsTI2bBDG6MKNznaq2lMPRY585UwdMfwwI82bsg4AyEla7quIoGelyNda4DNprbYVM78CJtXP2pXCl5vMPjv15Qp3Pce6sMLYSeTR--fEvENRo&sz=s0-l75-ft&ats=1510530995610&rm=15fb2371f26510a5&zw&atsh=1

No sign of replacement rudder foil yet

?ui=2&ik=e5d06f1df9&view=fimg&th=15fb2371f26510a5&attid=0.15&disp=emb&attbid=ANGjdJ858DQ3ckF6ZfEdV6Zkbsvq0BTqq1nK0Ju4E9uoLtMKo9vJwTTczR6X438YDo1bRGK18jBX6sMO7diqbfOg0bEihhyx8e0W6fGxpj5Vai_pyjW1x5IDM86puGI&sz=s0-l75-ft&ats=1510530995610&rm=15fb2371f26510a5&zw&atsh=1

Busted on way to Hawaii?

?ui=2&ik=e5d06f1df9&view=fimg&th=15fb2371f26510a5&attid=0.1&disp=emb&attbid=ANGjdJ9e8mZKkQKwiUhS4KaUcv2RCWKNmOWh0i0tsVfIMnbUfQh__bvaYv599hDW0qwwt_ubi4P5k_QNCZmeZHiDday7gmWxBaFcKs1l_1uGwHBUns-ycKep36KwL3c&sz=s0-l75-ft&ats=1510530995609&rm=15fb2371f26510a5&zw&atsh=1

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2 minutes ago, mad said:

You belligerent fucking idiot!!!

They posted on their website that they had failings on at least 2 foils, you've even reposted the link and text. 

You're really in need of some help from a professional in mental health care! 

Oh ,horeshit-I went to the Gitana site early and didn't see any info before I posted that then I saw Gauchies link to that info. I was wrong and corrected it when I got the right info. But many jackasses including yourself had already decided that Gitanas foil system didn't work despite her incredible performance in the English Channel. And ,for whatever reason, they did make what appears to be a colossal routing mistake and say so in their own words on the Gitana site!

The trouble with the ama foils hasn't been described yet-it could be fatigue or damage from the real rough conditions the first day . But where the jackasses got it wrong was that their was NO TROUBLE with the FOILING SYSTEM DESIGN as some were trying to say.

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36 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Oh ,horeshit-I went to the Gitana site early and didn't see any info before I posted that then I saw Gauchies link to that info. I was wrong and corrected it when I got the right info. But many jackasses including yourself had already decided that Gitanas foil system didn't work despite her incredible performance in the English Channel. And ,for whatever reason, they did make what appears to be a colossal routing mistake and say so in their own words on the Gitana site!

The trouble with the ama foils hasn't been described yet-it could be fatigue or damage from the real rough conditions the first day . But where the jackasses got it wrong was that their was NO TROUBLE with the FOILING SYSTEM DESIGN as some were trying to say.

At which point did they state they had ‘a colossal routing mistake’ ?

2 strikes by UFO’s or fatigue failings?

All of us here would love to the foils work, it’s your delusional and pedantic rambling and false claims regarding your design claims that piss everyone off.  

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

 Maserati has taken her foils off in the name of reliability. 

 

52 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Thats just bullshit-she removed her racing foils for her Asia trip so they wouldn't get damaged.

Moron! Damage is part of reliability. If using something is more likely to lead to damage, it cannot be relied on or, is unreliable. Maserati has removed its foils in the name of reliability. Basic English.

47 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

But many jackasses including yourself had already decided that Gitanas foil system didn't work despite her incredible performance in the English Channel.

More stupidity. Where has anybody said that their foiling system didn't work? Of course it works, giving the boat a fantastic turn of speed when conditions are right. What is being discussed is the performance over a long distance, ocean race. It is pointless raving about the incredible performance in the English Channel because that represents such a small part of the overall race. You cannot isolate one small section of the race like that.

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Don't try and reason with the beyond delusional one, he exists on Planet Ogg in a darkened galaxy beyond our own.

One point which appears to be obvious, the too many foil boats are slower in light/moderate conditions to maintain a decent speed  because of good old basic drag ... and they can't lift their main hull T foil, hence G17 having to sail higher while Sodebo laid off yet still retained excellent downwind performance.

 

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1 hour ago, Groucho Marx said:

Don't try and reason with the beyond delusional one, he exists on Planet Ogg in a darkened galaxy beyond our own.

One point which appears to be obvious, the too many foil boats are slower in light/moderate conditions to maintain a decent speed  because of good old basic drag ... and they can't lift their main hull T foil, hence G17 having to sail higher while Sodebo laid off yet still retained excellent downwind performance.

 

What nonsense, Frog Man: the foils were out of commission in the lighter air!! Do you not think before you write? I didn't think so........

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10 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

New "badge of honour" - receiving a downvote from Doug Lord, the man on -427

===============================

No the badge of honor is the -427 given by a few asshole nutcases-the same ones who have attacked me for years with ignorant bullshit! I have nothing but contempt for the system and the participants in my lynching!!!!

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/notifications/

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33 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

===============================

No the badge of honor is the -427 given by a few asshole nutcases-the same ones who have attacked me for years with ignorant bullshit! I have nothing but contempt for the system and the participants in my lynching!!!!

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/notifications/

And what’s that link supposed to show Doug?

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52 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

===============================

No the badge of honor is the -427 given by a few asshole nutcases-the same ones who have attacked me for years with ignorant bullshit! I have nothing but contempt for the system and the participants in my lynching!!!!

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/notifications/

Are you taking your social relations education at tRuMp uNiVeRsItY - you fucking tosser?

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Lord of foils/fooling himself, your fantasies of yacht design have yet again been disproved. Better go into another frenzy of bath toy making and posting pollution.

One question: when was the last time you actually put your obese posterior on a full sized sailing boat, like even a 9 foot version. And are you actually capable of even  getting aboard a boat? 

Should we feel sympathy for your imbalanced to insane obsessions?

Answer not required.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Clearly, hydrofoils DO NOT work as well in practice as they do in theory. I don't think this statement can really be argued.

The question is: CAN hydrofoils be made to work as well in practice as they work in theory?

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32 minutes ago, carcrash said:

Clearly, hydrofoils DO NOT work as well in practice as they do in theory. I don't think this statement can really be argued.

The question is: CAN hydrofoils be made to work as well in practice as they work in theory?

I'm afraid that is uninformed nonsense........

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1 hour ago, Groucho Marx said:

One question: when was the last time you actually put your obese posterior on a full sized sailing boat, like even a 9 foot version. And are you actually capable of even  getting aboard a boat? 

I cannot believe I am doing this but.......... name calling is one thing, if a bit childish and I admit to doing it out of frustration, but even for Doug, I think this is getting way too personal. When he makes moronic comments, call him a moron but deeply personal comments (fat shaming and the like) seem to me to be a step too far.

 

29 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:
1 hour ago, carcrash said:

Clearly, hydrofoils DO NOT work as well in practice as they do in theory. I don't think this statement can really be argued.

The question is: CAN hydrofoils be made to work as well in practice as they work in theory?

I'm afraid that is uninformed nonsense........

Again, I hate to do this, but I agree with Doug. Hydrofoils do work and work very well, but their suitability depends on the application. How can anybody say that hydrofoils don't work as well in practice as they do in theory with boats like the Moth, A Class Cat and the AC50's?

The question for this thread is whether hydrofoils that can get a boat totally out of the water are the best solution for long distance, ocean racing. To date, I would suggest we haven't seen anything that says it most certainly is. We have seen moments of potential, but that is very different from being a consistent winner and that is what is needed. Where we are now means that a one off result will still not prove anything. In ocean racing, we need to see foilers consistently beating non foilers before we can claim that foilers are better.

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Listen, all the recent (and many of the older) trimarans ARE hydrofoilers. They use foils for lift. We can go back 40 years to early examples. And although the blinkered DL thinks otherwise, claiming incessantly that he is the original inventor with his hopping toy - he is deluded.

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Now you are playing with words. You know that what is being talked about is the difference between foiling with only the foils left in the water and foil assist, where foils provide lift to stop the bows burying and to help reduce wetted surface. While the former isn't exactly new, it has entered a new era where we are seeing boats that are directly comparable using 2 different systems, which makes it interesting.

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17 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

…i make this configuration either the 3rd (or is it 4th) generation of fully foiling ocean going foilers. All have suffered exactly the same problem - when conditions don't suit foiling, they are slow.

To be fair, Maxi Edmond De Rothschild did seem to have better speed when the foils were working, so there's reason to be optimistic if the structural issues can be addressed.

However, it may also be the case that there isn't any material available that can withstand the stresses of offshore racing a 30m full foiling trimaran and meet the required foil design parameters (particularly thickness and span). Lifting the central hull may be adding to stress on the float foil in ways that a plain centreboard doesn't. L foils must have much greater stresses than T foils since the loadings are more asymmetric.

Weren't the ETNZ foils pretty much shot after just eight 40 minute races? Even allowing say 15 hours of training on the race foils, that's less than 10% of the time Gitana's foils need to endure and in much less stressful conditions (for ETNZ). Also, this race wasn't particularly stressful in terms of sea state and weather conditions, so to fail after less than 2 days in relatively benign conditions (for the starboard foil) means there's a large engineering and materials science challenge to overcome.

But I think there's enough promise to continue the research (as long as it's OK for me to be generous with large amounts of someone else's money).

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One of Brisbanes top sailmakers had experimented with full synthetic centreboards for his cat only to have one fail. He has made Qld red cedar centreboards because red cedar doesn't suffer from a set number of cycles, as does synthetic, before it fails. Work out how to use timber in this manner ,ie foil shaped glass covered and the problem may be solved.

I have seen a post of someones idea of carbon fibre foils which look like someone took a rolling pin to some dog droppings. Does that work?

Bullfrog is out of the water after a mishap.Family are saying I don't have enough mental capacity following being assaulted to sail her.

Cheers Bottman

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54 minutes ago, Bottman said:

 

Bullfrog is out of the water after a mishap.Family are saying I don't have enough mental capacity following being assaulted to sail her.

Cheers Bottman

 

.... many would like updates on you and Bullfrog - hope you just need some time to recower...

 

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Ultims in Transat Jacques Vabre


Dolfiman

 


"Editor's Note: Before the passage of the front, the port foil dropped, then approaching Cape Verde, it was the turn of the starboard foil ... "
Sébastien Josse "The exit of the Bay of Biscay was not super cool and we had our share of daily surprises. We have small concerns about the foils that prevented us from flying. That made us a bit handicapped. It is a concern of composite, it will be necessary to look more deeply, I do not know the cause. The foils are no longer in their integrity. They are more flexible than they should be. On the last part of the course, this is where we should have had the best speed spikes. This is where we are frustrated because we could have exploited the maximum potential of the boat. We could have gone very fast ... We were not in a spirit of attack at the end. We stayed a little offshore to get more wind, Sodebo opted for the coast. We were limited to a certain speed to keep control of the boat because of our foil problems. At some point, you have to be realistic and aware. At 100 miles from the finish with 70 miles behind, the percentage to double them is minimal unless they have a big glitch. Arriving in Bahia is a big thing for our team. It would have been 10 miles behind, the state of mind would not have been the same. "


Actualités - Sodebo Ultim’/Maxi Edmond de Rothschild : le grand débriefing - Transat Jacques Vabre 2017 https://www.transatjacquesvabre.org/fr/actualites/sillages/477/sodebo-ultim-maxi-edmond-de-rothschild-le-grand-debriefing

 

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Pictures of Gitanas UptiP ama foils by Fred Monsonnec:

gitana-17-foil-babord-f-monsonnec-04-04-17.jpg

gitana-17-vue-arric3a8re-photo-2-f-monsonnec-04-04-17 - Copy.jpg

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17 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

===============================

No the badge of honor is the -427 given by a few asshole nutcases-the same ones who have attacked me for years with ignorant bullshit! I have nothing but contempt for the system and the participants in my lynching!!!!

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/notifications/

A new record for the lynch mob scumbags: LMI has two full pages and half or more of another to her "credit" -

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/notifications/

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1 hour ago, mad said:

torches_pitchforks1-300x230.jpg

 

Most of those weren't in response to you moron.

Uh, you know that the link he posted will return results unique to whoever clicked it?  Doug sees his, you see yours, I see mine and if a person isn't logged in at SA, they see this:

login.png.cf25b39f9a259018b02af21497bbd45e.png

1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

Doug, you are sounding like Judge Roy Moore.

Until this voting system started, I was always tolerant of Doug Lord - enthusiasm isn't all bad.  But since I saw him voting down posts like this one and voting up harryproas, we are "friends" no more!  The ignore feature makes this place seem almost civilized and I don't miss him at all.  Bye-bye Doug.

(this post will cost me another down vote from him, of course - oh well)

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Seven people* are responsible for 471 down votes(90% of total votes!). That is a LYNCH MOB! And that is proof that this system is bullshit and totally meaningless.

* that is: exceptional assholes

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Doug is not married or full time employed is he?

And I would not say I am exceptional Doug, if I only have 1/7th of 471.  That is only 67.  That is not exceptional at all.  But I did just add one.  Let me check my calendar and see if I can get you over 1000.

So this system is not relevant to your standing in the sailing and foiling world but you think your bathtub toy boats are to Gitana?  And we all have to listen to you spout your self-promotional BS endlessly 11,253 times and counting.  So much to work with!

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40 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Uh, you know that the link he posted will return results unique to whoever clicked it?  Doug sees his, you see yours, I see mine and if a person isn't logged in at SA, they see this:

login.png.cf25b39f9a259018b02af21497bbd45e.png

Until this voting system started, I was always tolerant of Doug Lord - enthusiasm isn't all bad.  But since I saw him voting down posts like this one and voting up harryproas, we are "friends" no more!  The ignore feature makes this place seem almost civilized and I don't miss him at all.  Bye-bye Doug.

(this post will cost me another down vote from him, of course - oh well)

I didn't mean to downvote that post-nothing wrong with it like there was with your nasty personal attack on Rob Denney. I fixed it.

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

Uh, you know that the link he posted will return results unique to whoever clicked it?  Doug sees his, you see yours, I see mine and if a person isn't logged in at SA, they see this:

login.png.cf25b39f9a259018b02af21497bbd45e.png

Until this voting system started, I was always tolerant of Doug Lord - enthusiasm isn't all bad.  But since I saw him voting down posts like this one and voting up harryproas, we are "friends" no more!  The ignore feature makes this place seem almost civilized and I don't miss him at all.  Bye-bye Doug.

(this post will cost me another down vote from him, of course - oh well)

Well that’s the Lords issue, nobody else’s. 

Maybe he should post some screenshots with colourful fonts and and arrows everywhere? :)

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1 hour ago, bloodshot said:

I believe this is what they refer to as "the chickens coming home to roost"

This!!!!

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50 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Seven people* are responsible for 471 down votes(90% of total votes!). That is a LYNCH MOB! And that is proof that this system is bullshit and totally meaningless.

* that is: exceptional assholes

I gave you a like for that Doug, happy now?!

but it’s not totally meaningless, it seems to have settled in well with most of the forum and it’s being used properly. What it’s doing, is finally showing how unpopular a very members are and their level of annoying behaviour has reached a snapping point. 

You have been called repeatedly over the years here on your behaviour, and now you get to see it in all it’s truth. 

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Meanwhile, this showed-up on the Multihull Appreciation site...

An interesting perspective on Gitana's foil issues. Pretty hard to go fast when your gear is throttled. Of course, going fast in rough conditions might have been what caused all this and that opens another can of worms for foiling in the big ocean.

 

23559764_1191120494322858_8676016501861275358_n.jpg

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Cavitation damage on the lifting side trailing section? Appears to be quite flat down there?

Rethink: looks like flexing occurred first and then everything turned to defecation because first crack would have begun in thinnest, trailing section of foil. Always a difficult area to make strong?

G17foil copy.jpg

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2 hours ago, Chapped said:

An interesting perspective on Gitana's foil issues. Pretty hard to go fast when your gear is throttled. Of course, going fast in rough conditions might have been what caused all this and that opens another can of worms for foiling in the big ocean.

 

23559764_1191120494322858_8676016501861275358_n.jpg

To paraphrase an old saying, "to finish first you must first finish". There is no point in having the best gear if it always breaks and this is the problem Maserati is facing as well.

This is a problem being seen with many foiling boats. The loads on the foils are so high and the sections are relatively small makes it is hard to build the foils strong enough. Look at the number of failures in the America's Cup and there are stories of foils barely lasting the regatta.

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4 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

Seven people* are responsible for 471 down votes(90% of total votes!). That is a LYNCH MOB! And that is proof that this system is bullshit and totally meaningless.

* that is: exceptional assholes

I down voted your posts because you posted  the EXACT SAME FUCKING THING in multiple threads whether it had anything to do with the thread or not.

You down voted my post of your own video of your rc boat.

IDIOT.

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The champion AC50 (ahem, New Zealand) had I heard/read solid carbon foils (which took some months to laminate and finish) with some special grade of steel used in the very fine tips. Whereas just peering at the photograph, what is that stuff used for forming, filling the trailing sections of  G17's foil? Doesn't look particularly robust? And not much carbon there either - and also in the middle section of the foil as well? But I know nothing, just looking.

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4 hours ago, Chapped said:

Meanwhile, this showed-up on the Multihull Appreciation site...

 

When reposting content from other places, can you please include a link?

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French translation from Dolfiman on boatdesign.  Discussion of the course error that cost Gitana 124 miles. Without this error they still could have won even w/o the ama foils:

From Dolfiman in the Transat thread:
If Gitana speed potential is not technically affected, they still have a chance, they already show at the beginning of the race that they are able to go faster than Sodebo in reaching conditions. Their delay in time is only 30 mn. On the other hand Sodebo is a very sharp machine and currently easier to lead at 100% than new Gitana still in the learning curve as confessed Seb Josse on their site. He also confessed their wrong route option 2 days ago (it was not a tactical move as I presumed optimistically), in french on their site :
"Thomas and Jean-Luc played a nice weather option that explains today that they are leading the race. After the passage of the Azores we had the choice between jibing several times or going under J0 (big gennaker). Given our position at that time, we opted for gybing and navigation under J1 (genoa) which was to allow us to gain in longitudinal. Sodebo made the opposite choice by shifting in the West to slip. Our choice did not pay, far from it. Not only the state of the sea in the night from Tuesday to Wednesday did not allow us to exploit as expected our choice of sail and our meeting with a grain without wind pushed the nail. In the end, it was Thomas and Jean-Luc who pulled the right edge and in view of the weather conditions that presented themselves in front of our bows we had last night to jibe at 90 ° of the road to get away from the African coast and areas of light winds in our south. On the way out of this resetting, the addition was salty: from a 64-mile credit at 21h, Gitana 17 conceded 60 miles at sunrise. "t's always hard as a decision but the evening files were very clear. Sometimes you have to know how to lose a little to not completely mortgage the next events" .

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20 hours ago, samc99us said:

+1 to that. In the highest pressure part of the foil as well.

Don't you mean "lowest pressure" ?

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18 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

To paraphrase an old saying, "to finish first you must first finish". There is no point in having the best gear if it always breaks and this is the problem Maserati is facing as well.

This is a problem being seen with many foiling boats. The loads on the foils are so high and the sections are relatively small makes it is hard to build the foils strong enough. Look at the number of failures in the America's Cup and there are stories of foils barely lasting the regatta.

Not exactly right:  Maserati's two foil problems were due to collisions at sea--not foil failures. However, for years I've said that some sort of electronic avoidance system needs to be developed or the crap in the water will kill off foilers.

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the damage on the foil shown in the photos above does not seem to be from an impact. If it was an impact, you would expect to see damage to the leading edge of the foil, not the back. To me, this is a structural issue caused by the foil flexing too much, and compressing and flexing the top surface.

There is always the pressure to build as light as possible, and lessons will be learnt, and improvements made.

Next time they should consult with the (Doug) Lord as he is gods gift to foilers everywhere.

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2 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

Not exactly right:  Maserati's two foil problems were due to collisions at sea--not foil failures. However, for years I've said that some sort of electronic avoidance system needs to be developed or the crap in the water will kill off foilers.

You wonder why you get so many "dislikes" but this is an example. What i said was exactly right. Maserati has been crippled by broken foils. it doesn't matter whether it is because of construction issues or from hitting something, they still break.

As for the avoidance system, that is fraught with issues and will not happen. With these boats doing 100m in 6 seconds and not being able to do rapid changes of course, you would need a system that can "see" fairly small objects in the water some 500-1000 metres ahead and a way of advising the sailors how to deviate course. The sailor then needs to get to the helm, take over from the autopilot and steer accordingly. The Volvo boys who don't use autopilot used to say that if you didn't see ice 400m away, it was almost impossible to miss it when running at full speed in the Southern Ocean and you couldn't see growlers until you are on them.

I think you have highlighted the exact problem. Foilers are a huge risk because of the junk in the water, even if you can build the foils strong enough.

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14 hours ago, Justaquickone said:

Never expected to see something resembling coremat in the foils of a 10 ton boat ?

Exactly. I would expect that to be Rohacell IGF110 or Nomex Honeycomb. Someone was trying to save a $1 in the wrong part of the build, unless I'm missing something and coremat is the secret to success?

 

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5 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

Don't you mean "lowest pressure" ?

Depends on how you look at it, and in what condition you are evaluating. M&M show a high positive pressure on the inner foil skin at the leading edge, working its way back to a small negative pressure on the trailing edge. Of course we don't know the AoA of the board, sideslip angle, velocity or really much from this screen grab (which was also run on the N17 board package, not the Gitana package which could be different). Anyway, I'll stand by my point that the inner skin can see high positive pressures at the knee. It can also see high negative pressures. This is why these have often been formulated from very high strength tempered steel alloys, or full carbon.

N17 foil loads.PNG

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I would have thought that the foil on such a purposed RTW Maxi tri would have been solid carbon. 

    I'm pretty sure that after the AC 72 Oracle foil broke and floated to the surface they went to a titanium 'elbow' to resist the bending moments in that area. Now way that an oceangoing foil should be floating on its own. More CF please.

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On 11/15/2017 at 8:32 AM, Doug Lord said:

French translation from Dolfiman on boatdesign.  Discussion of the course error that cost Gitana 124 miles. Without this error they still could have won even w/o the ama foils:

From Dolfiman in the Transat thread:
If Gitana speed potential is not technically affected, they still have a chance, they already show at the beginning of the race that they are able to go faster than Sodebo in reaching conditions. Their delay in time is only 30 mn. On the other hand Sodebo is a very sharp machine and currently easier to lead at 100% than new Gitana still in the learning curve as confessed Seb Josse on their site. He also confessed their wrong route option 2 days ago (it was not a tactical move as I presumed optimistically), in french on their site :
"Thomas and Jean-Luc played a nice weather option that explains today that they are leading the race. After the passage of the Azores we had the choice between jibing several times or going under J0 (big gennaker). Given our position at that time, we opted for gybing and navigation under J1 (genoa) which was to allow us to gain in longitudinal. Sodebo made the opposite choice by shifting in the West to slip. Our choice did not pay, far from it. Not only the state of the sea in the night from Tuesday to Wednesday did not allow us to exploit as expected our choice of sail and our meeting with a grain without wind pushed the nail. In the end, it was Thomas and Jean-Luc who pulled the right edge and in view of the weather conditions that presented themselves in front of our bows we had last night to jibe at 90 ° of the road to get away from the African coast and areas of light winds in our south. On the way out of this resetting, the addition was salty: from a 64-mile credit at 21h, Gitana 17 conceded 60 miles at sunrise. "t's always hard as a decision but the evening files were very clear. Sometimes you have to know how to lose a little to not completely mortgage the next events" .

From the Gitana site:

Thomas Rouxel: Ah! It was my first Transat Jacques Vabre and I wouldn't have said no to a little victory! But here we are with this second place and that's no small feat. We made a strategic error at the Azores, which cost dearly and I think it was one of the key points in the race. Added to that, we had foil issues, which no longer enabled us to make a difference in terms of speed. Furthermore, we were up against two mighty candidates.

 

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The board didn't break at the knee and they have tested it in more extreme conditions than the AC 72 foils; I suspect that it is thicker there for starters than what Oracle designed, and I also suspect it is solid at the 1/4 chord point, either with a full carbon vertical shear web or a metal insert. One of the issues if you just went to completely solid carbon is you may not get the plies in the correct orientation (i.e just laying a stack of uni carbon in the molds)...its preferable to have the shear web on the bias to resist the shear forces in the middle of the structure, otherwise the shear strength of the epoxy is doing a lot of the work, rather than the far, far higher strength fibers.

Regardless I'm sure the issue will be sorted and they'll likely 'limp' back to France without the dagger foils and we'll eventually see her start winning races when the conditions are right.

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Perhaps the white material is an insulator between a metal core and a carbon shell on the trailing edge. And the damage was caused by the board developing twist due loading and drag when it leaves and re enters the water.

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The  way the carbon has delaminated off it seems as if the white material is some sort of cavity filler used to bond both halves together.

Could be wrong ?

 

 

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