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Grizz

Tragic youth sailing accident

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Very sad - but to be accurate,  this was a powerboat accident,  NOT a sailing accident.   Not that it matters to the family - my deepest condolences to the young sailors loved ones.

He might have only sheeted in the main once,  but he was one of us.

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This is a nightmare. My deepest sympathy goes out to that boy's family

Here is the main info from the above-linked article........................

UPDATED at 5 p.m.: A 10-year-old boy was killed after he was struck by a boat propeller during a sailing lesson in the vicinity of Centerport Yacht Club on Tuesday afternoon, police say.

According to authorities, the boy was among three students participating in a sailing lesson when the boat was intentionally capsized as part of the lesson around 2:30 p.m. All boys were wearing life jackets during the exercise.

Two of the students remained on the boat while the 10-year-old boy was in the water during the exercise, police say. The instructor, who was in a Zodiac boat, which is an inflatable boat, pulled the boy from the water into his boat. The boy then fell out of the Zodiac and was struck by the boat’s propeller, police say.

The instructor pulled the boy back into the boat and performed CPR. The harbormaster also responded to the scene and gave the boy CPR.

....   .............    ...........

What a horrible, horrible, accident.

FB- Doug

 

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29 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

this is a tragic accident -- but at face value, sounds like it should have been avoidable.

The kid was struck by the instructor's boat prop.

Was there a prop guard on it?

Agreed, but prop guard or not, the FIRST thing one should do regardless of how fast they're going/direction, whatever, is to kill the motor if someone falls over/they are approaching someone in the water. Sadly, I think poor training on the instructors part is to blame here. Will be interesting (not in a good way) to see what happens in court...

 

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50 minutes ago, Swabbie said:

99.9 percent of JA instructor ribs do not have prop guards. Horrible freak accident.  Agree more training is needed. Boats should never be in gear or running until asses are in seats. How much of that is covered in initial certification or powerboat license? Your lucky if they teach red, right, returning. Prayers to the family and also the instructor who is probably a fine young person and will live with this forever. This is a premier club and great people and it could happen anywhere. Very sad. 

I'll up that to 99.9999999999%.  This is extremely sad and I won't place blame between the trainers and the operator, but that engine should've been off. 

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This is a terrible tragedy, obviously avoidable. 

The issue that may come to light in all this is that most sailing instructors AT ALL LEVELS are not licensed by the Coast Guard.  If you are in a commercial arrangement and carrying passengers, you must have a USCG license. Why does the launch driver need one but not the sailing instructor??  Both are carrying passengers and are getting paid to do the work. 

I feel that all YC's are negligent on this topic. A powerboat license enables you to operate the craft but not to carry passengers for hire. As soon as you put kids in the boat with the instructor, you have passengers for hire. 

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Our club's junior-program chase boats have prop guards,  and when I was tasked with buying anew outboard for the camp I worked at ( in 1984 ! ) I bought one with a water Jet-drive so as to NOT have a propeller.  Yeah,   THAT one was a lot of fun - learning that "Neutral" wasn't really neutral...but we have had several bad prop strikes over the years out here - to the point that they have discussed requiring cages on ALL props !   ( so far this hasn't passed )

 

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In my experience, the US Sailing certification courses to teach sailing are a complete joke, at least the level 1 course program was. 1/2 of the class was clearly incompetent at driving a motor boat and the instructor just seemed to shrug it off. Prop guards should be a mandatory item on any boat that might be used in a junior sailing program, you'd think it'd be a no brainer.

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This is a massive tragedy and my condolences and support to all involved and impacted. This is every parent's, instructor's, program operator's, and sailor's worst nightmare. A child Is dead and his/her family forever devastated. God bless them all; instructor on the boat included. 

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This is so horrific. I frostbite from this club during the winters and have done a lot of sailing there during the summer as well. The membership there is enthusiastic about sailing and they run wonderful programs. 

From what I've read, this sounds like a split second thing... we have all been on a RIB or a center console when someone hit the throttle and we felt that momentary need to grab onto something. I'm so sorry for this family, this instructor, the other kids and the rest of the members. I don't know how anyone recovers from this, but I wish that they all find peace and healing in time. I'm so, so sorry for everyone involved. Love you all at CYC!! 

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RIP and fair winds to the young sailor who crossed the bar far too soon

Prayers for all involved.  I dont cast any judgments on the coach... when I was an 18 year old sailing coach, myself and everyone I knew did all sorts of knucklehead things w/ powerboats... but for the grace of god something like this never happened.

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Wow sad news. It has been 20+ years since I coached juniors, and I was not a safe coach looking back at it.  I was not properly trained.  

There was several near miss at next club over.  But I was lucky.  

I really feel for all those involved.  

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I ran a coach boat with a 70 HP Johnson, at age 21. I had a 17 year old high school assistant running some of the time. This was before the invention of boating safety certificates but I had the USYRU coaching training for a head instructor. My assistant did not. As I remember it, I taught her everything about powerboat operation.
We did not have prop guards. We had two boats at our disposal but did not always use both. Sometimes we were together (it was generally preferable).

Engine always turned off when approaching kids in the water. We had leashes. Even all those decades back.
Sometimes I had half a dozen or maybe a few more in the Whaler while towing a string of dinghies. Kids were to sit. But somebody could have stood up and fallen out. We did have the full railings but they weren't all that high (you remember the type--the classic 17 footish whaler with the wood console with fwd leaning windscreeen).  Looking back, that was on the slightly sketchy side.

The article gives very little actual detail. I never trust news at this stage. Too many nuances they are apt to miss. But it will come out.

I haven't been able to get this out of my head all day. It really really shook me. I suppose having been in that particular task (capsize drills) and generally (driving a boat around kids in dinghies) it is too close to not feel it viscerally. Others have already said the same thoughts. I really do feel for every one in that club, in that program, the parents and grandparents and siblings etc of the lost child. And the instructor, not knowing how this happened, I have no idea what went wrong. Just all around awful. My thoughts are with all.

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This is terrible,  the family of the sailor but also for the coach. I think the coach will live with the internal guilt for as long as the family grieves. 

People and organisations need to take note of yet another bad accident and do something about their local circumstances, both by things like guards and also training and SOP. Having said that, being hit by a metal or plastic guard  or the the shaft of the engine could be equally deadly.

Scouting in NSW requires props guards on Scout owned boats (after similar incidents) but I worry about family owned ones which turn up to events. At our boats shed we also don't let people sit on the buoyancy tubes on the Zodiacs anymore and they also need to be holding onto a rope or fitting at all times, due to a similar incident years ago, fortunately not fatal. At the investigation Zodiac apparently came out and said that people shouldn't be sitting on the buoyancy tubes, despite what all their advertising shows, and basically blamed the driver.

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10 hours ago, Swabbie said:

And? 

and this kid is gonna carry this for the rest of his life and it was an accident and he didn;t mean for it to happen, and he is in shock and distressed like everyone else involved....just sayin

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with that said...I am the director and head instructor of my club's Jr. program.....

 

today will be a day of safety drills without the use of outboards

today I will hug each of my sailors and give them high fives just for being there...

today I will read the newspaper article to my instructors and let that sink in....

today is a sad day 

 

SAFETY........FUN............LEARNING

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As an instructor, this is literally my worst nightmare. I might be asking management for prop guards soon. 

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46 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:
1 hour ago, dacapo said:

with that said...I am the director and head instructor of my club's Jr. program.....

 

today will be a day of safety drills without the use of outboards

today I will hug each of my sailors and give them high fives just for being there...

today I will read the newspaper article to my instructors and let that sink in....

today is a sad day 

 

SAFETY........FUN............LEARNING

Other than prop guards and retelling this story to the instructors and young sailors each class everywhere ....practically speaking I don't think much more needs to be done. Instructor/safety boat does not go in gear with anyone standing. Sad...I really feel those involved....

It is a sad day, this incident is a nightmare.

One of the points I have tried to get across to those involved with our youth/junior programs: sailing is very safe, by statistics it is the safest youth sport by far. But the stakes are extremely high, an accident is just as likely to be fatal as it is to be a broken something.

What can we do to prevent this? Some have said the training is a joke. Sadly I have to agree that in -some- cases the training is a joke. Who is going to fix that? We have to ourselves. If I heard somebody describing our program's training as a joke, I'd make sure that person either got a new perspective or got put far away from our kids. Not meaning that in any harsh way, just the facts. 

The first step is solid awareness that this kind of deadly tragedy is a very real possibility. In some circumstances, it is more of a probability than a possibility. And as instructors, we have to deal with that and make certain that it doesn't happen. You cannot do so if you believe in luck, if you believe you are young & bulletproof, if you think it's a joke.

Heartfelt condolences to the family.

FB- Doug

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Bowriding (kid sitting on bow, feet dangling in water) has been endemic in every club I've worked in.Banning it has made me Mr. Unpopular on numerous occasions

There was a very serious accident involving this practice in Pequot YC, some decades ago.

There is only one result if the bowrider should slip off, I doubt there's anyone who could kill an engine quickly enough, 15 mph is 22 feet per second, so you have 1/2 a second to kill the engine.

Of course, I don;t know this was the cause of he tragedy, but putting a kid in a Zodiac after a practice capsize, does not sound like normal procedure.

 

The amazingly insipid US Sailing, should talk about this in their Level 1 training.

 

I'm devastated, thoughts, to all concerned.

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This is awful, awful news.  I grew up sailing on the Sound and went to regattas at Centerport and have friends who coached there.  This was avoidable but it's also very easy to see how it happened...almost every former sailing instructor has been in a situation where this could have happened to one of their kids (plus parents who drive motorboats with kids in them).  And most junior sailing instructors are < 21 and this is frequently their first job and they are being supervised by someone who is also < 21, and everyone just crosses their fingers that people get good training and are responsible.  

Seems like the take home lessons based on these facts are:

1. If you're able to outfit motorboats that are involved in junior sailing instruction with prop guards, strongly recommend that programs do so (something like - http://www.propguard.net/how.html - I'm sure there are others out there, I don't own any stock in these guys or know how good the product is, just found a site with a design that works)
 
2. Everyone in a motorboat must be seated INSIDE the motorboat (not on a rail, inner tube or standing in any capacity) before the boat goes into gear.  Easy rule to break since the inner tubes are the most comfortable place to sit and there's usually not a lot of seating inside a RIB.  Get some cushions for the floor of the RIB and have kids kneeling on the cushions with butts inside the boat before the boat is in gear.  
 
3. Motorboats should never be accelerated violently or suddenly from a standing position - always go super slow initially in case passengers aren't settled in.  
 
It's been 20 years since I've taken it, but at least at that time, US Sailing Level I training classes had a basic motorboat skills test.  I was concerned that I wouldn't pass it since I didn't have a lot of experience driving a motorboat growing up, so I took a US Sailing Motorboat Safety Skills class led by the legendary and late Walter Wheeler III.  That helped a lot from a training and confidence standpoint.  

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3 hours ago, dacapo said:

with that said...I am the director and head instructor of my club's Jr. program.....

 

today will be a day of safety drills without the use of outboards

today I will hug each of my sailors and give them high fives just for being there...

today I will read the newspaper article to my instructors and let that sink in....

today is a sad day 

 

SAFETY........FUN............LEARNING

Ditto at my program

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I saw this happen to a kid at a fuel dock when I was 12 ( bicentennial summer), the boat reversed just as he fell into the water over the stern. I still have bad dreams about them pulling the kid onto the dock and stuffing towels into his stomach. I don't think I got back out on the water for a month that summer.

I as a instructor for my clubs junior program for 4 years and this could have happened then as well. I was a little more paranoid about the engine/prop around the kids due to what I saw but there were many times where I would see something going awry and just floor the chase boat without thinking to get to the problem. We didn't let kids in the chase boat as a general rule but it's just dumb luck that something bad didn't happen in my classes(both as a student and instructor.

I hate that this happened some of my best memories are of being in or teaching kids sailing classes. Also sailing in junior regattas at Centerport and Northport across the sound behind the four smokestacks from my club. 

Condolences and prayers for the family of the young sailor who died. There are no words.  

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3 hours ago, dacapo said:

with that said...I am the director and head instructor of my club's Jr. program.....

 

today will be a day of safety drills without the use of outboards

today I will hug each of my sailors and give them high fives just for being there...

today I will read the newspaper article to my instructors and let that sink in....

today is a sad day 

 

SAFETY........FUN............LEARNING

Well said. 

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3 hours ago, Swabbie said:

Report say the young man was sitting on the tube and when the boat accelerated he fell over and his pfd entangled in the prop causing massive chest trauma.

This could have happened anywhere to anyone. Unless kids are inside the gunwhale facing inboard with asses on seats it will eventually happen. These are mostly young teenagers. 

Bowriding with legs dangling overboard is already illegal. 
These are not passengers for hire, USCG Six Pack has nothing to do with it and is irrelevant.
Everyone operating a motor vessel in NYS is required to have a safe boating certificate with a few ridiculous exceptions
https://parks.ny.gov/recreation/boating/documents/FaqBoatingSafetyCertificates.pdf

Boat manufacturer lobbies will always fight against more strict licensing and mandatory training. As someone said US Sailing Level One training is very limited.  There are additional, optional courses available

U./S.Sailing Prerequisite - 3) Experience operating a safety boat. This course is evaluative: Powerboat skills are tested, not taught, during this course.

http://www.uspowerboating.com/courses/sph/

 

Safe Powerboat Handling

Course Description

This 16-hour hands-on, on-the-water course is for anyone who wants to learn how to safely operate a small motorboat and improve their boathandling skills. No previous experience is required! The US Coast Guard and the National Association of State Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA) have approved this course and an increasing number of states have recognized it as meeting their requirements for a State Boating Education Certificate.

These national and state approvals call for the course to include a total of six to eight hours of classroom sessions covering required education topics.

US Sailing Membership is not required to participate in a Safe Powerboat Handling course.

 

On-the-Water Sessions

  • Engine & electrical systems
  • Starting procedures
  • Docking
  • Leaving & returning to a slip
  • Close-quarters maneuvers
  • Anchoring
  • Steering a range
  • Proceeding to a destination
  • Person in Water rescue

Classroom Sessions

  • Safety, preparation & weather
  • Maneuvering concepts
  • Registration & capacities
  • Equipment requirements
  • Preparation & fueling procedures
  • Navigation rules of the road
  • Aids to navigation
  • Environment regulations

 Some good will come out of this monstrous tragedy but the cost in pain and suffering on this one  is immense.     
 

 

 

    

My son did this powerboat course. It was pretty good and I would suggest any club have their instructors take it.

 

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Wow...  Condolences...  I taught for yrs and frankly learned the powerboat stuff as I went, not by us sailing.  I got reeeeealll good at driving a pb only because I did it with the race program, (we did not have a PB in the family) on a 50ish hp rib, on a regular basis, for years in close quarters, and frankly, if the kid was sitting on the side, how in the fuck did he even get near the prop??  Without more info we cannot surmise the the events that lead to the situation, but unless he was on the bow, and the boat was going fast, or he was sitting on the stern quarter and just slid in, how did this happen??  If the LJ was not buckled or old or whatever, something sucked him in.. IMHO (and this is not gonna go over well) the instructor is ether really really libel for the issue by letting the kid do something completely against the rules (LJ not buckled, sitting on the tube feet over the side, backwards, standing behind driver (he obviously was the oldest and the most competent)(we all have)) heck, the 12yo probably swam to the boat and pulled himself over the stern and said "OK lets go i am good" without the instructor looking back... or it was really a freak accident that could not have been avoided by following procedures...   Tragic tragic situation and I really feel for the instructor, family and the program.  (getting choked up remembering all the times I did all of the above with the older kiddo buddies that I trusted in the boat..... (Shudder)).....  

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Deepest Condolences from the Sweetwater Seas . .

PC  Skip, Sandusky Sailing Club 

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On 7/18/2017 at 8:27 PM, alarie505 said:

This is a terrible tragedy, obviously avoidable. 

The issue that may come to light in all this is that most sailing instructors AT ALL LEVELS are not licensed by the Coast Guard.  If you are in a commercial arrangement and carrying passengers, you must have a USCG license. Why does the launch driver need one but not the sailing instructor??  Both are carrying passengers and are getting paid to do the work. 

I feel that all YC's are negligent on this topic. A powerboat license enables you to operate the craft but not to carry passengers for hire. As soon as you put kids in the boat with the instructor, you have passengers for hire. 

We are taught at the USS certification classes, very specifically, not to put our sailors in the coach boat unless absolutely necessary (ie injury). I think place of employment may have said as much too. Many of us still took kids in the boats underway for one reason or another though. 

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Jumping to conclusions and saying a prop guard would have saved the kid is irresponsible at this point, a prop guard does not make being run over by a motorboat instantly non fatal. There are many factors that could be involved that we simply don't know based on early reporting. 

With that said I have been coaching for 10 years now and worked with many different programs all over the US. USS level 1 does go over motorboat safety and there is a skills test that must be passed, One of the instructor trainers in my current region is notorious for failing trainees on their motorboat skills and all the other IT's I have met I have held in very high regard. 

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I am really a powerboater who doesn't sail much anymore.  Used to teach adult sailing and have towed a lot of Sunfish etc.  Props and swimmers are a hazard in the teaching scenario but similar issues with pulling skiers or tubers.  Both realistically require powering to get the tow rope to the person in the water.  In a perfect world you would shut off the motors and drift/paddle to the person in the water.  But that also diminishes your control of the boat - no steering either.  Most people I know just put the motors in neutral.  I literally  cannot recall ever seeing a prop guard on any boat.  If you know there are swimmers in the water it helps to have someone(s) keeping them in sight, a bit like an MOB situation.

Someone falling out of a boat poses different problems, surprise, no time to react, etc.  Condolences to all involved.

 

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11 minutes ago, Lake Shark said:

Jumping to conclusions and saying a prop guard would have saved the kid is irresponsible at this point, a prop guard does not make being run over by a motorboat instantly non fatal. There are many factors that could be involved that we simply don't know based on early reporting. 

With that said I have been coaching for 10 years now and worked with many different programs all over the US. USS level 1 does go over motorboat safety and there is a skills test that must be passed, One of the instructor trainers in my current region is notorious for failing trainees on their motorboat skills and all the other IT's I have met I have held in very high regard. 

I was told by a club member that the life jacket straps got caught by the prop, which is why the chest injuries were there.  Yes it can happen even with a guard, but preventing wraps like that is the one thing they are really good for.

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Anyone know what kind of PFD? Have wrapped enough fishing line in props to see how easy that can be to do. Long trailing strap ends of a big PFD on a small size sailor? Harder to imagine with snug straps and tucked ends.

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25 minutes ago, Lake Shark said:

Jumping to conclusions and saying a prop guard would have saved the kid is irresponsible at this point, a prop guard does not make being run over by a motorboat instantly non fatal. There are many factors that could be involved that we simply don't know based on early reporting. 

With that said I have been coaching for 10 years now and worked with many different programs all over the US. USS level 1 does go over motorboat safety and there is a skills test that must be passed, One of the instructor trainers in my current region is notorious for failing trainees on their motorboat skills and all the other IT's I have met I have held in very high regard. 

I agree - which is why I said 'at face value'. 

Either way - prop guards should be a given on rescue craft.

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Do USN, USCG and DNR small boats use prop guards? They do a fair amount of rescue work so would seem to have a predictable general exposure to swimmers in the water.

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2 hours ago, NaptimeAgain said:

Do USN, USCG and DNR small boats use prop guards? They do a fair amount of rescue work so would seem to have a predictable general exposure to swimmers in the water.

Its doubtful. Whole different ball of wax though.  Those are all experts in their field, not some kid who was given the keys and told to go drive a boat.

This shit happens more often than we think.(just not with as devastating results fortunately) My nephew was a sailing instructor and one day he and a few other instructors were screwing off in the 13.5 whaler. They turned too hard and ALL were thrown from the boat. No dead man tether was worn and the boat continued to circle the instructors, luckily at a pretty low speed. One of the instructors was able to swim for the boat and climbed up into it and shut it down.

 

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Besides human safety, prop guards make sense when assisting a capsized sailboat,  that has lines and sails in the water drifting about. 

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If prop-guards were a magic bullet, we'd all have them:

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/training/Training Notices and Guidance/Training Guidance/TG01-13 Prop Guards.pdf

 

 I don't think anyone's mentioned entrapment risk. I would be wary of compromising the performance of a "safety boat" that would potentially need to be able to get to a turtled boat, and manoeuvre efficiently beside it to help a trapped sailor.

 No easy fix: attitude, training, experience... and there's no evidence that any of these were missing in this tragedy.

Cheers,

                   W.

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There is no reason that a well designed and properly mounted prop-guard can greatly add to the safety of a rescue and/or training motorvessel. The plastic Prop-Guards mentioned earlier have a cast aluminum version called the MPT that we will be using on a Waikiki Beach daycharter catamaran. The Hawaiian DNR are now insist the use of such prop guards due to accidents involving snorkelers. 

Image result for prop guard outboard

Here is a look at the motor and sled configuration we are using with the shroud from MPT. Bollard pull is greatly improved and the thrust is better directed and the foil section of the rings don't seem to detract very much on top end speed. The advantages seem to far outweigh the cons.

nWiFCGh.png

BbJlCDB.png

 

Ecological Benefits

It is anticipated that the patented technology will provide the following ecological and safety benefits.

Reduction of Fuel consumption at cruising speeds due to lower required RPM.

On small craft at a 3500 Cruising RPM, preliminary Thrustor® testing resulted in speed increase of 5% or a reduction of up to 300 RPM to maintain the same speed, which will result in additional fuel savings of 5%.

Since the 1930’s the Kort Nozzle at low speeds up to 9 knots, has a proven track record of delivering a 30% increase in Bollard pulling power, or a 30% fuel savings for displacement hull vessels under 10 knots.

The Schultz Nozzle™ speed threshold will exceed the hull speed of all commercial vessels; it is the only nozzle system that will work on vessels above 10 knots. We anticipate a minimum 5% fuel savings for all higher speed commercial vessels.

Reduces Hydro Carbon emissions by decreasing fuel consumption.

A reduction in cavitation vibration reduces potentially dangerous sound frequencies to sea life. These negative effects on sea life are currently under serious study.

Narrows the normally disruptive 360 degree propeller wash into a tight, directional thrust towards the rear which: 
Protects fish/egg habitat

Protects shallow-water plant habitat

Reduces beach erosion caused by normal prop wash

Safety Benefits

Reduces propeller strike injury to mammals, especially manatees.

Reduces chances of a propeller strike to persons engaged in diving or water sports activities.

Increases planing hull control, thus reducing over-the-side and capsizing incidents.

 

 

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Tragic situation for all that were involved - that's way too young to die

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Have to choose word wisely here as I am a USSailing level 2 instructor.

This is a very sad tragedy, for the parents, instructor, club, and all of us. 

I am 42 years old.  Father of 2.  I have a 12 and 13 year old.  I think I look at the job of teaching sailing a little differently than an 18 year old.  

This is a tragic accident.  Spoke to a fellow instructor at a regatta today who knows the instructor involved.  I don't know him/her.  From the description it sounds like he/she was a good, knowledgeable instructor and sailor.  Other than that I have nothing, so I won't add further.

Prop guards would help but aren't a perfect solution.  However most club programs don't have them.  My guess is cost.  

Teaching sailing is a young persons pursuit for the most part.  Why?  Money.  Cheap labor.

So if programs are watching costs and paying low this breeds an environment that exposes this sort of possible accident.

Solution?  No idea.  The current state of sailing instruction in this country has worked for a long time with generally good results.  Sailing is dangerous.  No more or less than other youth activities, but it has unique challenges.

 

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A tragic accident and very easy to throw stones at the young instructor and/or level of his powerboat training as a SAILING instructor.

Under the RYA Powerboat Level 2 training which stresses the use of a kill chord (I think Americans call it a leash) meaning any movement away from the helm kills the engine. Additionally divers are trained to NOT move off until they are sure everyone is secure on the boat.

Having said that, if the youngster who fell off was sitting behind the driver or moved to a different position after the driver started to move, the driver would not initially or necessarily be aware that he fallen off until he heard the splash.

Thing about tragic accidents is they are just that - accidents.

It is extremely sad that a young person lost their life, it is also almost as sad that society will most likely consider it necessarily to string someone up to carry the blame and I am sure that young instructor is already suffering either from personal angst or sadly perhaps from (already) fingers pointed in his direction.

Sometimes huge mistakes are made and we get away with it with little more consequence than a fright or an unwelcome adrenalin rush, sometimes a small lapse of procedure can have tragic circumstances as is likely the case in this incident.

Let's hope it is remembered that he is not a mugger who robbed an old lady at knifepoint in a darkened street with no remorse or morals but a young sailing instructor who (perhaps) made an error of judgement while teaching others his passion.

We should also remember before making any disparaging comments that we were not there, the reports so far appear very sketchy and none of us really know all the circumstances.

Doesn't make it any easier to read but the fact it made the news kind of shows how rare such incidents are.

Sad news all the same.

SS

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I'll be having a word about this with my son before he takes the RIB out again. This does seem a bit odd, most ways of falling off a RIB leave one outside the path of the engine. The closest I ever came to chopping someone up was when a passenger fell out of a whaler I was running and HUNG ON, trailing their feet back towards the engine.

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9 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

A tragic accident and very easy to throw stones at the young instructor and/or level of his powerboat training as a SAILING instructor.

Under the RYA Powerboat Level 2 training which stresses the use of a kill chord (I think Americans call it a leash) meaning any movement away from the helm kills the engine. Additionally divers are trained to NOT move off until they are sure everyone is secure on the boat.

Having said that, if the youngster who fell off was sitting behind the driver or moved to a different position after the driver started to move, the driver would not initially or necessarily be aware that he fallen off until he heard the splash.

Thing about tragic accidents is they are just that - accidents.

It is extremely sad that a young person lost their life, it is also almost as sad that society will most likely consider it necessarily to string someone up to carry the blame and I am sure that young instructor is already suffering either from personal angst or sadly perhaps from (already) fingers pointed in his direction.

Sometimes huge mistakes are made and we get away with it with little more consequence than a fright or an unwelcome adrenalin rush, sometimes a small lapse of procedure can have tragic circumstances as is likely the case in this incident.

Let's hope it is remembered that he is not a mugger who robbed an old lady at knifepoint in a darkened street with no remorse or morals but a young sailing instructor who (perhaps) made an error of judgement while teaching others his passion.

We should also remember before making any disparaging comments that we were not there, the reports so far appear very sketchy and none of us really know all the circumstances.

Doesn't make it any easier to read but the fact it made the news kind of shows how rare such incidents are.

Sad news all the same.

SS

+1

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I've taught a lot of kids to sail.  Even though some organizations ban the use of jet skis when working with youth, I have preferred the use of jet skis for several reasons, the most significant is that there is no prop, so no one is going to get injured or killed by a prop.  Jet skis are extremely maneuverable it is easy to get close to a dingy.  It is also easy to get swimmers out of the water. Jet skis have their own risks, so I don't allow youth to use them for that reason, but I really think more instructors should consider using them. 

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12 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

A tragic accident and very easy to throw stones at the young instructor and/or level of his powerboat training as a SAILING instructor.

Under the RYA Powerboat Level 2 training which stresses the use of a kill chord (I think Americans call it a leash) meaning any movement away from the helm kills the engine. Additionally divers are trained to NOT move off until they are sure everyone is secure on the boat.

Having said that, if the youngster who fell off was sitting behind the driver or moved to a different position after the driver started to move, the driver would not initially or necessarily be aware that he fallen off until he heard the splash.

Thing about tragic accidents is they are just that - accidents.

It is extremely sad that a young person lost their life, it is also almost as sad that society will most likely consider it necessarily to string someone up to carry the blame and I am sure that young instructor is already suffering either from personal angst or sadly perhaps from (already) fingers pointed in his direction.

Sometimes huge mistakes are made and we get away with it with little more consequence than a fright or an unwelcome adrenalin rush, sometimes a small lapse of procedure can have tragic circumstances as is likely the case in this incident.

Let's hope it is remembered that he is not a mugger who robbed an old lady at knifepoint in a darkened street with no remorse or morals but a young sailing instructor who (perhaps) made an error of judgement while teaching others his passion.

We should also remember before making any disparaging comments that we were not there, the reports so far appear very sketchy and none of us really know all the circumstances.

Doesn't make it any easier to read but the fact it made the news kind of shows how rare such incidents are.

Sad news all the same.

SS

Spot on! Excellent post, thank you!

Thoughts and prayers out to all those involved, tough situation does not even begin to describe it.

I passed the article on to our VC to pass on to our camp instructors. Like has been said very few details and nothing specifically to learn at this point other than remember your situational awareness and respect the boat, they can be dangerous.

One of the many great lessons my Dad taught me growing up was when he first started teaching me to drive he would say, "Respect the car, things can get away from you in a hurry, it is not a toy." I still think of that today when I push my sports car on some curvy roads. Thanks Dad!

 

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On 2017-07-18 at 9:37 PM, Great Red Shark said:

Our club's junior-program chase boats have prop guards,  and when I was tasked with buying anew outboard for the camp I worked at ( in 1984 ! ) I bought one with a water Jet-drive so as to NOT have a propeller.  Yeah,   THAT one was a lot of fun - learning that "Neutral" wasn't really neutral...but we have had several bad prop strikes over the years out here - to the point that they have discussed requiring cages on ALL props !   ( so far this hasn't passed )

 

I sometimes run outboards in areas where I worry about swimmers / kids doing dumb things - not to mention the many unmarked shallow rocks; striking the former would be a life changing nightmare and tragedy, the latter an inconvenience but much more likely.

Shark sounds like you have experience with outboard jet drives - would they be viable retrofit to RIBs?


JET_GAL02_0.jpg?itok=-eUQsn7Z

Also looks like bottom units can be sourced after market.  http://outboardjets.com/

Any views on how these compare to jet skis or cages from a safety and practicality point of view?

 

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Is that a Yamaha jet drive unit or after market? Never seen one before.

Thread drift but...

Any idea on fuel burn rate and top end speed compared to a prop?

Looking at the lower unit it does look like you would loose some directional steerage in neutral versus a conventional prop setup as the skeg is deeper and also functions as a rudder.

 

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18 minutes ago, Hobie Dog said:

Is that a Yamaha jet drive unit or after market? Never seen one before.

Thread drift but...

Any idea on fuel burn rate and top end speed compared to a prop?

Looking at the lower unit it does look like you would loose some directional steerage in neutral versus a conventional prop setup as the skeg is deeper and also functions as a rudder.

 

Agree a bit of drift from the tragedy at hand, but related as I have nightmares about being involved in a similar tragedy. I tend to be safety conscious but sometimes kids do the darndest things. I worry even more what if one of my kids was at the helm…

It seems all the brands offer jet drive outboards but their websites aren’t very informative about hardnosed efficiency comparisons etc. I’d happily pay a bit more in acquisition and ongoing cost, especially for unit used by my kids around kids, but I don’t know if they are a practical swap in for a RIB.

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I'm sorry but no offense you all are talking about complete bullshit. Who cares what should have been done or what you would have done. The fact is a little kid was out there having fun and their life was tragically cut short. Yes we can all be Captain highndsight and talk about what we would have done better but that doesn't help anything. I grew up in the JSA and taught in the JSA. Who ever grew up in that sailing community can agree that it has only gotten safer over the years. When I was a kid I'm surprised no one got taken out by a prop or broke their neck jumping off the worry wort. When I was a sailing instructor I happened to have saved a kid's life and still wake up at night thinking about what if I didn't. Anyone over 30 that grew up in the JSA can probably think of times that were absolute stupidly. And that's just the JSA. What about those same kids that happened to get a ride on a big boat. Sailing is an extreme sport. Skateboarding you might break an ankle or an arm but sailing is not only physically tough but mentally as well. What happened was absolutely terrible and no one deserves that. The worst thing we can do as a dwindling sailing community is sit here and point fingers and blame. Doing this will only hurt the sport more. We need to offer our support, anyway we can, and keep figuring out a way to make one of the most extreme sports in the world also the safest. 

 

I apologize if this is a rant but this is coming from a past JSA sailor and a past JSA instructor as well as a father that plans on passing this amazing sport to my kids. 

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21 hours ago, NaptimeAgain said:

Use jet skis for swimmer assistance like surfing events.

Can you help right a dinghy from a jet-ski? I don't know. I'm a safety boat RIB driver, I've never even been on a jet ski. In practice, the main role of a safety boat isn't "swimmer assistance", it is to help tired crew right their boat. Abandoning a boat to bring sailors ashore is possible but very unusual.

 

 

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10 hours ago, OL_Dirty_Bowsprit said:

 The worst thing we can do as a dwindling sailing community is sit here and point fingers and blame. Doing this will only hurt the sport more. We need to offer our support, anyway we can, and keep figuring out a way to make one of the most extreme sports in the world also the safest. 

 

I apologize if this is a rant but this is coming from a past JSA sailor and a past JSA instructor as well as a father that plans on passing this amazing sport to my kids. 

+1.000.000

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23 hours ago, OL_Dirty_Bowsprit said:

I'm sorry but no offense you all are talking about complete bullshit. Who cares what should have been done or what you would have done. The fact is a little kid was out there having fun and their life was tragically cut short. Yes we can all be Captain highndsight and talk about what we would have done better but that doesn't help anything. I grew up in the JSA and taught in the JSA. Who ever grew up in that sailing community can agree that it has only gotten safer over the years. When I was a kid I'm surprised no one got taken out by a prop or broke their neck jumping off the worry wort. When I was a sailing instructor I happened to have saved a kid's life and still wake up at night thinking about what if I didn't. Anyone over 30 that grew up in the JSA can probably think of times that were absolute stupidly. And that's just the JSA. What about those same kids that happened to get a ride on a big boat. Sailing is an extreme sport. Skateboarding you might break an ankle or an arm but sailing is not only physically tough but mentally as well. What happened was absolutely terrible and no one deserves that. The worst thing we can do as a dwindling sailing community is sit here and point fingers and blame. Doing this will only hurt the sport more. We need to offer our support, anyway we can, and keep figuring out a way to make one of the most extreme sports in the world also the safest. 

 

I apologize if this is a rant but this is coming from a past JSA sailor and a past JSA instructor as well as a father that plans on passing this amazing sport to my kids. 

No finger pointing. There's always lessons to be learned from incidents. 

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On 7/21/2017 at 7:15 PM, OL_Dirty_Bowsprit said:

I'm sorry but no offense you all are talking about complete bullshit. Who cares what should have been done or what you would have done. The fact is a little kid was out there having fun and their life was tragically cut short. Yes we can all be Captain highndsight and talk about what we would have done better but that doesn't help anything. I grew up in the JSA and taught in the JSA. Who ever grew up in that sailing community can agree that it has only gotten safer over the years. When I was a kid I'm surprised no one got taken out by a prop or broke their neck jumping off the worry wort. When I was a sailing instructor I happened to have saved a kid's life and still wake up at night thinking about what if I didn't. Anyone over 30 that grew up in the JSA can probably think of times that were absolute stupidly. And that's just the JSA. What about those same kids that happened to get a ride on a big boat. Sailing is an extreme sport. Skateboarding you might break an ankle or an arm but sailing is not only physically tough but mentally as well. What happened was absolutely terrible and no one deserves that. The worst thing we can do as a dwindling sailing community is sit here and point fingers and blame. Doing this will only hurt the sport more. We need to offer our support, anyway we can, and keep figuring out a way to make one of the most extreme sports in the world also the safest. 

 

I apologize if this is a rant but this is coming from a past JSA sailor and a past JSA instructor as well as a father that plans on passing this amazing sport to my kids. 

+1 well said ODB

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Quite a rant Mr Bowsprit AND from a Newbie as well.

Once you have been a member of the Anarchy community a bit longer you will realise it would be hard to find a forum group with a greater collective knowledge of our sport so "All of us "talking about complete bullshit" is not only highly unlikely but completely inaccurate. If you worry about what if and what ifn'ts (I know it's not a word by the way but if Mr Trump can make them up so can I) you are in the wrong sport. I am well beyond the age of 30 as many of my fellow Anarchists are well aware and we have (most of us) got away with things that - in the modern 'let's not take a risk of firing up those good old adrenal glands' world - would be classed as "stupidity" but at the time were bloody good fun - oh boy they were fun, I have a few scars to prove it.

I do agree however that "pointing fingers and blaming" is not the right thing to do but I can see little evidence of that in the thread above - read what is being said, not what you think or want to have been said.

Don't scatter gun your responses it is neither fair and certainly NOT accurate.

Just sayin

'SS

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On 7/21/2017 at 7:15 PM, OL_Dirty_Bowsprit said:

I'm sorry but no offense you all are talking about complete bullshit. Who cares what should have been done or what you would have done. The fact is a little kid was out there having fun and their life was tragically cut short. Yes we can all be Captain highndsight and talk about what we would have done better but that doesn't help anything......

On the contrary, rational discussion and evaluation can help prevent this from happening again.

Looking thru this thread again, I don't see any of the things you're ranting about. Certainly nobody is blaming the instructor, or finger-pointing.

But hey, this is the interwebs. Have fun, knock yourself out.

We have a youth sailing camp starting this morning, I am going to spend some time talking with the instructors and at the very least, renewing their commitment

FB- Doug

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10 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

We have a youth sailing camp starting this morning, I am going to spend some time talking with the instructors and at the very least, renewing their commitment

FB- Doug

wisheng you smoothe sailleng.

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

On the contrary, rational discussion and evaluation can help prevent this from happening again.

Looking thru this thread again, I don't see any of the things you're ranting about. Certainly nobody is blaming the instructor, or finger-pointing.

But hey, this is the interwebs. Have fun, knock yourself out.

We have a youth sailing camp starting this morning, I am going to spend some time talking with the instructors and at the very least, renewing their commitment

FB- Doug

Thank you Doug! Like you I don't see anybody blaming the instructor or finger pointing in this thread.

Maybe the Newbie is not the sharpest tool in the shed???

Have fun with your camp!

 

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On 7/22/2017 at 5:51 AM, dogwatch said:

Can you help right a dinghy from a jet-ski? I don't know. I'm a safety boat RIB driver, I've never even been on a jet ski. In practice, the main role of a safety boat isn't "swimmer assistance", it is to help tired crew right their boat. Abandoning a boat to bring sailors ashore is possible but very unusual.

 

 

Yes in theory you could help right a dinghy from a jet-ski but it's not the best platform for it. You really only can stand up facing forward or aft. There really is not good place to put your feet to sand sideways like in a boat and then you might end up going for a swim as well. For assisting surfers they are great but it would not be my choice for a sailing safety boat. A jet boat would be a much better platform if not having a prop was a requirement. However, I don't think they handle as well as a propeller driven boat. I have never even seen a jet drive outboard in service let alone driven a boat with one so have no idea how they perform.

 

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On 7/24/2017 at 7:52 AM, Steam Flyer said:

On the contrary, rational discussion and evaluation can help prevent this from happening again.

Looking thru this thread again, I don't see any of the things you're ranting about. Certainly nobody is blaming the instructor, or finger-pointing.

But hey, this is the interwebs. Have fun, knock yourself out.

We have a youth sailing camp starting this morning, I am going to spend some time talking with the instructors and at the very least, renewing their commitment

FB- Doug

Hope you have a safe, fun and successful event, Steamers - good onya for spending the time. 

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On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 10:04 PM, NaptimeAgain said:

I am really a powerboater who doesn't sail much anymore.  Used to teach adult sailing and have towed a lot of Sunfish etc.  Props and swimmers are a hazard in the teaching scenario but similar issues with pulling skiers or tubers.  Both realistically require powering to get the tow rope to the person in the water.  In a perfect world you would shut off the motors and drift/paddle to the person in the water.  But that also diminishes your control of the boat - no steering either.  Most people I know just put the motors in neutral.  I literally  cannot recall ever seeing a prop guard on any boat.  If you know there are swimmers in the water it helps to have someone(s) keeping them in sight, a bit like an MOB situation.

Someone falling out of a boat poses different problems, surprise, no time to react, etc.  Condolences to all involved.

 

FYI some engines will still move the prop in neutral. My Mercruiser I/O skiboat did and I would shut down when people were boarding from the water. Speaking of waterskiing, the standard pickup procedure that is second nature to any ski boat skipper that gets the line back to the skier without ever aiming the boat right at them is something I did not realize everyone did not learn at a young age until I got a blank look telling a new kid to "do a ski pickup" to get a line to someone in the water.

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Question on motor opperation: 
Will the prop slow down faster if the kill switch is pulled with the engine in gear? My initial thought is yes, because the momentum in the prop will be consumed by pushing the engine cylinders.
Anyone with more engine experience know the answer?

 

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Yanking the cord is faster than slowing down and shifting into neutral for sure if for no other reason than you have one less move to make and you can do it faster. OTOH you now have no control of the boat. If a person falls from a moving powerboat, IMHO nothing is fast enough to help except maybe instantly steering hard *toward the side they fell off* to shove the stern AWAY from the swimmer. A RIB is short enough that you pretty much would need to be already turning as they went in though.

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On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 7:15 PM, OL_Dirty_Bowsprit said:

I'm sorry but no offense you all are talking about complete bullshit. Who cares what should have been done or what you would have done. The fact is a little kid was out there having fun and their life was tragically cut short. Yes we can all be Captain highndsight and talk about what we would have done better but that doesn't help anything. I grew up in the JSA and taught in the JSA. Who ever grew up in that sailing community can agree that it has only gotten safer over the years. When I was a kid I'm surprised no one got taken out by a prop or broke their neck jumping off the worry wort. When I was a sailing instructor I happened to have saved a kid's life and still wake up at night thinking about what if I didn't. Anyone over 30 that grew up in the JSA can probably think of times that were absolute stupidly. And that's just the JSA. What about those same kids that happened to get a ride on a big boat. Sailing is an extreme sport. Skateboarding you might break an ankle or an arm but sailing is not only physically tough but mentally as well. What happened was absolutely terrible and no one deserves that. The worst thing we can do as a dwindling sailing community is sit here and point fingers and blame. Doing this will only hurt the sport more. We need to offer our support, anyway we can, and keep figuring out a way to make one of the most extreme sports in the world also the safest. 

 

I apologize if this is a rant but this is coming from a past JSA sailor and a past JSA instructor as well as a father that plans on passing this amazing sport to my kids. 

WTF are you going on about :unsure::unsure:

Most of us are directly involved in patrol boat work around kids, used to do it, have kids doing it, or are in clubs that do it. Most or all of this thread is about how to not repeat this at our own clubs. Take a chill pill and come back if you have any ideas we can use.

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Hope you have a safe, fun and successful event, Steamers - good onya for spending the time. 

Thanks- we ended up doing only a small amount of actual drill, but had a great conversation about priorities and imperatives. One of them came up with the comparison to a stick of dynamite... don't light the fuse until you are one million percent CERTAIN you can toss it away. Don't hit the throttle until you are one million percent certain the prop is clear.

At one point during the conversation, I compared it to pulling the trigger on a gun, but that is not a good comparison for them because none of them have ever handled firearms. OTOH they do have experience with a lot of other potentially painful activities... pain is Mother Nature's way of telling you, "Hey you really fucked up." Pain is more certain to get the point home than danger, especially with young people, especially danger to others. Our instructor/coaches are all good kids, and they all have very strong commitment. It's just human nature to become complacent over time, and to occasionally neglect details. The supervisor's job is to make sure this stays at a minimum!

 

42 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

WTF are you going on about :unsure::unsure:

Most of us are directly involved in patrol boat work around kids, used to do it, have kids doing it, or are in clubs that do it. Most or all of this thread is about how to not repeat this at our own clubs. Take a chill pill and come back if you have any ideas we can use.

Yes! Always looking for good ideas. We drilled on throttle control and using the kill lanyard. It's ironic that a sailing instructor's main job requires them to be an expert motorboat driver. And you can't make anything 100% safe, not with equipment, not with drill. But you want to go for a sweet spot of X amount of equip/drill providing maximum safety.

There have been 3 fatalities in youth sailing during the time I have been involved: two were trapeze entrapment, now this prop strike. All were preventable. The question is, how do you impose reasonable amounts of practice for safety without rendering the whole thing ponderous & non-fun?

FB- Doug

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21 hours ago, Hobie Dog said:

Yes in theory you could help right a dinghy from a jet-ski but it's not the best platform for it. You really only can stand up facing forward or aft. There really is not good place to put your feet to sand sideways like in a boat and then you might end up going for a swim as well. For assisting surfers they are great but it would not be my choice for a sailing safety boat. A jet boat would be a much better platform if not having a prop was a requirement. However, I don't think they handle as well as a propeller driven boat. I have never even seen a jet drive outboard in service let alone driven a boat with one so have no idea how they perform.

 

I also can't see a safe way to deal with an injured sailor with a jetski. I had one kid get a really good hit to the head and i ended up taking him into my coach boat to check him out on land and get him off the water (multiple coaches in vicinity to deal with my sailors). He was fine, but that would have been tough on a ski. Same if there was ever a physical injury that made movement hard. 

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To answer a previous question regarding outboard jets, the efficiency is significantly below a standard prop.  It's been awhile since I did any comparison but IIRC it was about a 35% hit to use the jet.

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WOW! If your data is correct you would have to hang a 200 with a jet to get the performance of a 130 with prop.

 

 

 

 

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Hobie,

     Sadly, that seems to be the case with the centrifugal pump used on those jet lower units. There are some axial flow units that doesn't waste efficiency by making water make that 90 degree turn coming up into the pump and then being directed aft for drive. 

Image result for axial pump outboard motors

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18 hours ago, pbd said:

To answer a previous question regarding outboard jets, the efficiency is significantly below a standard prop.  It's been awhile since I did any comparison but IIRC it was about a 35% hit to use the jet.

Ive heard the 30ish percent loss also.  They also dont steer without power being applied and don't really have a neutral, reverse usually sucks  too.  It takes a bit of retraining to operate them safely.

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Combining what I see and my experience with various jet boats, expect a big budget hit with the patrol boats running into all kinds of things if they are jet powered.

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4 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Combining what I see and my experience with various jet boats, expect a big budget hit with the patrol boats running into all kinds of things if they are jet powered.

Why would that be? Is it because they are harder to manoeuvre?

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In a word, yes!

Unless they have some sort of rudder, and I don't think they do, just like a jet ski you have no steerage unless you are applying throttle. And has been stated reverse generally sucks as well. They can be a real PITA to dock as well. Smash that dock!!!

 

 

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On 7/20/2017 at 8:15 AM, NaptimeAgain said:

Do USN, USCG and DNR small boats use prop guards? They do a fair amount of rescue work so would seem to have a predictable general exposure to swimmers in the water.

Nice report by Gowrie Group on prop guards.  Interesting how many organizations require them.

http://www.uspowerboating.com/wp-content/uploads/Gowrie-Safety-Prop-Protectors.pdf

 

 

 

Gowrie-Safety-Prop-Protectors.pdf

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19 hours ago, robalex117 said:

Nice report by Gowrie Group on prop guards.  Interesting how many organizations require them.

http://www.uspowerboating.com/wp-content/uploads/Gowrie-Safety-Prop-Protectors.pdf

 

 

 

Gowrie-Safety-Prop-Protectors.pdf

Has anyone here used this product?

After a quick look at the website it seems the guard blocks access to the water intake louvers. It may make it difficult for clubs that flush their outboards with "earmuffs" after every session?

Any tips or thoughts?

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41 minutes ago, familysailor said:

Has anyone here used this product?

After a quick look at the website it seems the guard blocks access to the water intake louvers. It may make it difficult for clubs that flush their outboards with "earmuffs" after every session?

Any tips or thoughts?

Well there is also the 'garden hose' attachment point but I am not sure on what size motors those start to show up on...

 

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It seems like some of local ycs are getting prop guards. Any one have any experience with them and installing them our club has a 15, 20 ,30, 70 and 90 I think they are getting for. Are they easy to take off? Doug

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6 hours ago, familysailor said:

Has anyone here used this product?

After a quick look at the website it seems the guard blocks access to the water intake louvers. It may make it difficult for clubs that flush their outboards with "earmuffs" after every session?

Any tips or thoughts?

why bother flushing everyday? If its getting used everyday its probably not going to accumulate too much buildup, right? I dont think i ever flushed a motor i knew i was going to use the next day. 

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On 7/26/2017 at 7:50 AM, Hobie Dog said:

WOW! If your data is correct you would have to hang a 200 with a jet to get the performance of a 130 with prop.

 

 

 

 

My figures weren't speed but fuel consumption, they're thirsty bastards

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15 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

why bother flushing everyday? If its getting used everyday its probably not going to accumulate too much buildup, right? I dont think i ever flushed a motor i knew i was going to use the next day. 

I would buy that. When I am using my boat often I generally don't flush her. If she is going to sit for a week or so then yea I'll run the muffs. When she is in the water I mostly use the garden hose attachment flush.

 

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On 7/27/2017 at 4:21 PM, mustang__1 said:

why bother flushing everyday? If its getting used everyday its probably not going to accumulate too much buildup, right? I dont think i ever flushed a motor i knew i was going to use the next day. 

It's a good habit, no wondering when or if.

All boats aren't used daily. It depends on the group being coached and where they're training.....

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On 7/29/2017 at 6:30 PM, familysailor said:

It's a good habit, no wondering when or if.

All boats aren't used daily. It depends on the group being coached and where they're training.....

The one time you don't flush the motor and run the gas out of the carb is going to be the one time circumstances get in the way, and the boat sits a week / month or two.

You've heard the black box theory of good luck? A lot of flyers believe in it too. You do rote chores that are a PITA but dogmatic ally good, you get plus value in to the black box. When you need a bit of good luck, you draw value out of the black box. Never put anything in? You may not have any good luck on tap.

Personally I need all the luck I can summon. Although I believe firmly that it's bad luck to be superstitious

FB- doug