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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Barnyb

AC36 Auckland NZ

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36th America's Cup Announcement:
The Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron and Circolo della Vela Sicilia as the Challenger of Record, together with their respective representative teams Emirates Team New Zealand and Luna Rossa Challenge, are pleased to announce that the Protocol establishing the parameters for the 36th America's Cup will be released in September 2017.

The proposed dates for the event will be further detailed in the Protocol but the Defender and the Challenger of Record are considering the possibility of the 36th America's Cup Match and the preceding Challenger Selection Series being conducted in Auckland in early 2021 during the New Zealand summer.

In recognition of the fundamental condition of the Deed of Gift that the Cup be preserved as a perpetual Challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries, the Protocol will contain a "constructed in country" requirement for competing yachts and a nationality requirement for competing crew members.

Emirates Team New Zealand

 

 

19555018_1794866687205042_8186699201433680321_n.jpg

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In recognition of the fundamental condition of the Deed of Gift that the Cup be preserved as a perpetual Challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries, the Protocol will contain a "constructed in country" requirement for competing yachts and a nationality requirement for competing crew members.

 

"Crew Members"

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12 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

In recognition of the fundamental condition of the Deed of Gift that the Cup be preserved as a perpetual Challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries, the Protocol will contain a "constructed in country" requirement for competing yachts and a nationality requirement for competing crew members.

 

"Crew Members"

Makes sense, as those are the guys on the front line, on camera and the ones the fans get to know over the course of the cycle. It would certainly be better for those who are passionate about their sports teams representing their country to hear and see people they can relate to on TV. Depending on how restrictive the constructed in country clause is, it could potentially be harmful to Core Builders, but I guess if they wanted to continue, they could relocate to the U.S and be a little more versatile than focusing on building high tech Americas Cup yachts for OTUSA. Constructed in country and crew nationality requirements can only be a good thing for the future of the event. Sport is always best when it is nation v nation, country v country. It will just be interesting to see how much OTUSA were able to gain support from the American sports audience.

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Yep. The development of more teams like BAR, LR, TNZ with a national identity and strong patriotic support could return AC 36 to the glory days and produce a regatta heavily represented by many nations. 

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Constructed in country - I guess  Core builders will have to develop a traveling boat building shop...

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I bet the let a few overseas crew in like 2?? Just not the Helmsman. That would keep Ashby his job and Spithill out of one.

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We have seen so many attempts to spark interest in the AC this feels little more than "The Emperor's New Cloths". There is no evidence to suggest that there was more interest in the AC when there were strict nationality rules, which was for only a small period of the cup and which were intended to make the cup easier to defend.

Until we see the details of how limiting the rules actually are, it is hard to know the impact, but it is hard to see how this will do anything other than make it harder for new teams, because they will be limited in their ability to bring in experience.

I do fully approve of constructed in country. I also hope they limit the nationality of the designers, because that seems far more important than the sailors, but seeing that ETNZ relied primarily on foreign designers, I doubt that will happen. A team sailing a boat designed and built by the country of the challenge seems to make a  lot of sense.

7 minutes ago, kiwi777 said:

I bet the let a few overseas crew in like 2?? Just not the Helmsman. That would keep Ashby his job and Spithill out of one.

Are you sure Jimmy doesn't now have US citizenship;). He has had his permanent residency for years, is married to an American and his kids have dual nationality.

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7 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

We have seen so many attempts to spark interest in the AC this feels little more than "The Emperor's New Cloths". There is no evidence to suggest that there was more interest in the AC when there were strict nationality rules, which was for only a small period of the cup and which were intended to make the cup easier to defend.

Until we see the details of how limiting the rules actually are, it is hard to know the impact, but it is hard to see how this will do anything other than make it harder for new teams, because they will be limited in their ability to bring in experience.

I do fully approve of constructed in country. I also hope they limit the nationality of the designers, because that seems far more important than the sailors, but seeing that ETNZ relied primarily on foreign designers, I doubt that will happen. A team sailing a boat designed and built by the country of the challenge seems to make a  lot of sense.

Are you sure Jimmy doesn't now have US citizenship;). He has had his permanent residency for years, is married to an American and his kids have dual nationality.

I don't think either of those provisions have anything to do specifically with sparking interest and everything to do with having it represent ETNZ and LR's vision of what the America's Cup represents.

They both clearly feel strongly that it really is about the countries they represent and that means the sailors and the boat have to have at least a passing connection with a teams home country.

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I think NZ has grown to admire Glenn Ashby, as he has been with the Kiwi team since 2013. He's been through the lows and the highs of the Americas Cup, and was instrumental in the ETNZ demolition job this time round. The guy mihght as well be an honorary NZer. If he wants to stay with the team for the defence, and can get all his required ducks in a row and dot the I's and cross the T's, the Kiwi public will welcome him with open arms, something the US may not be so willing to do with their crew of Australians.

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

I think NZ has grown to admire Glenn Ashby, as he has been with the Kiwi team since 2013. He's been through the lows and the highs of the Americas Cup, and was instrumental in the ETNZ demolition job this time round. The guy mihght as well be an honorary NZer. If he wants to stay with the team for the defence, and can get all his required ducks in a row and dot the I's and cross the T's, the Kiwi public will welcome him with open arms, something the US may not be so willing to do with their crew of Australians.

Really? Did you miss all the stuff that went on in the USA after Spithill "won" the cup in AC34. Did you not see the chat shows, the publicity stunts with the US armed services etc. Jimmy was well and truly embraced by the US public. 

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1 minute ago, A Class Sailor said:

Really? Did you miss all the stuff that went on in the USA after Spithill "won" the cup in AC34. Did you not see the chat shows, the publicity stunts with the US armed services etc. Jimmy was well and truly embraced by the US public. 

I bet if you asked those people on those chat shows, and on those publicity stunts now who Jimmy Spithill is, they wouldn't have the slightest idea. Americans lap up anyone who wins until they don't. Then you're forgotten like yesterdays news. The only reason Jimmy was on those shows was because Larry could pay for TV time. 

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3 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Really? Did you miss all the stuff that went on in the USA after Spithill "won" the cup in AC34. Did you not see the chat shows, the publicity stunts with the US armed services etc. Jimmy was well and truly embraced by the US public. 

as long as you mean "the tiny fraction of the US public that's even aware of the AC"...

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In fact I bet if you asked the majority of the American public who Jimmy Spithill is, their first answer would be...who?

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9 minutes ago, sclarke said:

In fact I bet if you asked the majority of the American public who Jimmy Spithill is, their first answer would be...who?

I think if you asked the majority of the American public in the 1970's or 80's who Dennis Conner was their answer would have been the same. I don't think it is because of nationality.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

I do fully approve of constructed in country. I also hope they limit the nationality of the designers, because that seems far more important than the sailors, but seeing that ETNZ relied primarily on foreign designers, I doubt that will happen. A team sailing a boat designed and built by the country of the challenge seems to make a  lot of sense.

The issue with limiting the nationality of designers is teams would just find a way to hide it - and it wouldn't be all that hard probably. Just work remotely with someone and never name them in any team docs.

That could encourage the creation of underground boat designer gangs ha ha.

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14 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

I think if you asked the majority of the American public in the 1970's or 80's who Dennis Conner was their answer would have been the same. I don't think it is because of nationality.

I don't know -- wasn't around then in any meaningful way. Certainly I've seen it suggested that Conner was a much bigger deal, e.g. here. But I agree that I don't think it's b/c of nationality.

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Richard Gladwell's view of the new protocol ..

"As previously tipped in Sail-World the statement indicates that the regatta will be held in the early 2021 - probably in February. The last America's Cup staged in New Zealand got underway on February 15, 2003. 

It is not known whether the two parties will negotiate for a longer Challenger Selection Series than the three week affair sailed in Bermuda on a very compressed schedule.

Previous Challenger Selection Series held in Auckland have got underway in October for a Match in February. But the size of the Challenger Selection series is determined to some extent with the number of entries received.

So far there are two definites - being the Challenger of Record, Luna Rossa, and Land Rover BAR (GBR) who already have full funding for their campaign for the 36th America's Cup. The British team also has a specialist America's Cup base in Portsmouth along with many supporting programmes and initiatives and are the strongest team in this regard.

The statement also includes the comment that there will be a nationality clause and a constructed in country clause in the new Protocol."

The rest is here ..

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Americas-Cup---Protocol-announcement-for-next-Cup-in-six-weeks/155639

 

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and Land Rover BAR (GBR) who already have full funding for their campaign for the 36th America's Cup.

Interesting

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41 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

I think if you asked the majority of the American public in the 1970's or 80's who Dennis Conner was their answer would have been the same. I don't think it is because of nationality.

http://thediplomat.com/2013/09/americas-cup-what-happened-to-sailings-greatest-trophy/

he 1987 races drew a huge television audience Stateside and unleashed a yachting boom. Conner was feted as a national sporting icon, with his crew getting a ticker-tape parade in downtown Manhattan and an audience in the White House with President Ronald Reagan. Conner’s book Comeback became a best seller.

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5 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Did you see the response to "the greatest comeback in sport"?

no?

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1 hour ago, bob202 said:

The issue with limiting the nationality of designers is teams would just find a way to hide it - and it wouldn't be all that hard probably. Just work remotely with someone and never name them in any team docs.

That could encourage the creation of underground boat designer gangs ha ha.

Dealing in blackmarket foiling catamaran designs, which would soon become a gateway drug to other forms of even more damaging high performance waterbourne activities!

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So what's the boat?

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24 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Did you see the response to "the greatest comeback in sport"?

So how did it compare, in objective terms, to 1983 or 1987? 

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29 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Did you see the response to "the greatest comeback in sport"?

Umm, is that the one where the Oracle comeback wasn't voted as the greatest comeback in sport? Its like...number 3 depending on who you ask, but very seldom is it no.1 in anyones books. The New England Patriots came back from 28-3 down to win 34-28. Now thats a comeback, and its top 2 in almost every sports analysts book.

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I reckon they should just take the grey areas right out of it and just write it directly into the protocol........J.Spithill cannot be part of AC36 unless he's selling ice creams or hot dogs in the grand stands.

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2 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Umm, is that the one where the Oracle comeback wasn't voted as the greatest comeback in sport? Its like...number 3 depending on who you ask, but very seldom is it no.1 in anyones books. The New England Patriots came back from 28-3 down to win 34-28. Now thats a comeback, and its top 2 in almost every sports analysts book.

You really are an argumentative person who won't let facts get in the way of making an argument. It might have escaped your notice that Oracle's win was called "the greatest comeback in sport" in 2013, some 4 years before the New England Patriots comeback. I agree that the Patriots comeback was greater, but you couldn't have said that in 2013.

It is a pretty arbitrary title and very subjective, but it was the phrase used by the US media at the time. It was started by The Wall Street Journal. To suggest that Jimmy didn't get huge exposure across the USA because of it and that an American skipper would have got more is a big stretch. Every single time Jimmy was mentioned it was as skipper of Oracle Team USA and it was very rare that his nationality was even mentioned in the press. As an Australian, it amazed me just how the USA took Jimmy to heart. I think they liked his roigh and ready, up front manner. I remember an iteview on one chat show where the host brought up nationality. Jimmy was pretty cool, mentioning his American wife and kids and that he sailed for a US team and he asked if it mattered. The host responded that he deserved to be considered an honorary American.

I personally find it hard to believe that a US skipper would have changed the support, viewers or anything, other than maybe outcome;)

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Is this really smart for NZ as a country? They will force the AC industry away from NZ except their own boat and team. And will that give more teams - dont think so - I see US, France, UK and maybe Sweden that can do this.... 

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44 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

You really are an argumentative person who won't let facts get in the way of making an argument. It might have escaped your notice that Oracle's win was called "the greatest comeback in sport" in 2013, some 4 years before the New England Patriots comeback. I agree that the Patriots comeback was greater, but you couldn't have said that in 2013.

It is a pretty arbitrary title and very subjective, but it was the phrase used by the US media at the time. It was started by The Wall Street Journal. To suggest that Jimmy didn't get huge exposure across the USA because of it and that an American skipper would have got more is a big stretch. Every single time Jimmy was mentioned it was as skipper of Oracle Team USA and it was very rare that his nationality was even mentioned in the press. As an Australian, it amazed me just how the USA took Jimmy to heart. I think they liked his roigh and ready, up front manner. I remember an iteview on one chat show where the host brought up nationality. Jimmy was pretty cool, mentioning his American wife and kids and that he sailed for a US team and he asked if it mattered. The host responded that he deserved to be considered an honorary American.

I personally find it hard to believe that a US skipper would have changed the support, viewers or anything, other than maybe outcome;)

http://laureus17.laureus.com/awards-history/2014/winners/#tab-container Rafael Nadal?

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2 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

So what's the boat?

Clearly a foiling monohull because Ken Read has run out of ways of talking up covering tactics and playing the windshifts with simple bang the sides of the box sailing in catamarans

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Frankly a disappointing announcement :(

I thought we'd see Protocol by now (since its been said to exist already), not just an announcement that it'll be announced in Sept & probably include CiC/Nationality rules that we totally already knew.

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9 minutes ago, hoom said:

Frankly a disappointing announcement :(

I thought we'd see Protocol by now (since its been said to exist already), not just an announcement that it'll be announced in Sept & probably include CiC/Nationality rules that we totally already knew.

You're kidding..right?

You are aware the next AC is in 2021?

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12 minutes ago, hoom said:

Frankly a disappointing announcement :(

I thought we'd see Protocol by now (since its been said to exist already), not just an announcement that it'll be announced in Sept & probably include CiC/Nationality rules that we totally already knew.

i agree it was not really an announcement at all, we know nothing more at all.  it was the announcement you make when you feel like you need to say something but don't really have anything to say.  It should have read TNZ announce that they intend to make an announcement at a later time.  

 

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2 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

So what's the boat?

In September we'll see a Protocol with huge entry fees and insurance requirements listed but with all the other factors to be announced at future dates. The Class of boat when is finalised cannot be changed - but will be changed anyway, most of the other deadlines will be missed, and the rules that are announced will be changed all the way through. None of the above may be publicly discussed.....etc

;)

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The a announcement was good. Fuck Core Composites, fuck potato eyed white chokers sailing for Japan, fuck ginger sledging cocksuckers with their worn out cunts and fuck all you whining little bitches.

We need:

Monohulls 

Long races

Hard sailing by men

Faggot fucktard American teams with fuck all Americans and a boat made in New Zealand racing in the round robin series with constant rule changes and points carried over from a series no one gave a flying fuck about was just fucking awful. Only dumb cunts think that was good,  so bring on an argument for your fragile little twin hull, one design flying boats. I'll crush your skulls in with a reasoned debate. 

Real men sail boats with soft sails in open water and no chase boat/ambulance following behind them. 

Fuck Russell and Larry. They fucked the spirit of the cup in the ass with no jelly. 

Men will fix this. Stand back son, this clean up is about to start. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, nav said:

In September we'll see a Protocol with huge entry fees and insurance requirements listed but with all the other factors to be announced at future dates. The Class of boat when is finalised cannot be changed - but will be changed anyway, most of the other deadlines will be missed, and the rules that are announced will be changed all the way through. None of the above may be publicly discussed.....etc

;)

I'm marking your statement for later reference. ^_^

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Up until just a couple of weeks ago the focus was on what the team had to achieve to get to this point. 

To expect much now on "what's next" is at best a little naive is it not?

Discussions have started, ideas and opinions are being collated. Obligations and  agreements between COR and defender are part of the mix. 

Anyhow half the the fun is speculating right? Once they announce something we can only agree or disagree  

for instance. With the nationality rule hard to see the Swedes making it with all due respect. Not sure the hydrocarbon business is as bouyant as it once was either, potentially crimping funding. 

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3 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Is this really smart for NZ as a country? They will force the AC industry away from NZ except their own boat and team. And will that give more teams - dont think so - I see US, France, UK and maybe Sweden that can do this.... 

As a country this is not smart for NZ, however whats best for NZ is not likely at play here. 

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1 hour ago, nav said:

In September we'll see a Protocol with huge entry fees and insurance requirements listed but with all the other factors to be announced at future dates. The Class of boat when is finalised cannot be changed - but will be changed anyway, most of the other deadlines will be missed, and the rules that are announced will be changed all the way through. None of the above may be publicly discussed.....etc

;)

Have another go, see if you can be any more cynical. 

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22 minutes ago, mako23 said:

As a country this is not smart for NZ, however whats best for NZ is not likely at play here. 

At first it can be smart for NZ - they will probably win the next AC - but on a longer perspektive not so much...

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2 hours ago, nav said:

In September we'll see a Protocol with huge entry fees and insurance requirements listed but with all the other factors to be announced at future dates. The Class of boat when is finalised cannot be changed - but will be changed anyway, most of the other deadlines will be missed, and the rules that are announced will be changed all the way through. None of the above may be publicly discussed.....etc

And Spinbot will defend this as the most fair, open best run AC ever the whole way through :D

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Well I must admit that was expected, European summer and all. Let's hope the NZ government is not watching the Bermuda election. That Cup is like a bad Rum, tastes really good at first but man the next day is bad!!! 

http://mobile.royalgazette.com/politics/article/20170718/plp-storms-to-election-victory&template=mobileart

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48 minutes ago, starrchallenge said:

Well I must admit that was expected, European summer and all. Let's hope the NZ government is not watching the Bermuda election. That Cup is like a bad Rum, tastes really good at first but man the next day is bad!!! 

http://mobile.royalgazette.com/politics/article/20170718/plp-storms-to-election-victory&template=mobileart

more here

http://www.royalgazette.com/americas-cup---sport/article/20170630/bermuda-blow-as-kiwis-rule-out-return

some of the 78 comments

 will be boycotting lamb from New Zealand...

Where are the 2,000 jobs PROMISED by the oba to Bermudians??

 

Had enough of sour Kiwis?

Mr. Ellison is an innovator - why fight success?

Let's start the Bermuda Cup every 2 years, in our stadium, the Great Sound.

 

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20 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

If this is even remotely true with "Boat Construct in their own Country" Artemis and Japan are most definitly GONE and it's a huge Boost for Land Rover BAR, Alinghi and potentially Australia.

Wasnt a problem when construction rules  existed, at worst just hire a punch of Kiwis and bring them to your country where they can build your yacht.  Just throw in Beer, Pizza and Pornography and hey presto instant boat, I suspect that there some wanker boat builders in warkworth who might be looking for a gig

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31 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

If this is even remotely true with "Boat Construct in their own Country" Artemis and Japan are most definitly GONE and it's a huge Boost for Land Rover BAR, Alinghi and potentially Australia.

Wouldn't the main issue come from building:

  1. foils (if any ;)
  2. fancy bespoke spars 

as most of the other components can be made virtually anywhere now?

I would disagree with Japan and Swedish being out (Japan is pretty good with composite, I believe they do helo's blades and the Swedish have Marstrom) where I doubt that beyond hulls, Uk would be that advanced?

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42 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Wasnt a problem when construction rules  existed, at worst just hire a punch of Kiwis and bring them to your country where they can build your yacht.  Just throw in Beer, Pizza and Pornography and hey presto instant boat, I suspect that there some wanker boat builders in warkworth who might be looking for a gig

 

Vacuum-bagged lamination is pretty much a commodity nowadays. Rather, also considering ague's post, I would stress country of assembly. This to avoid circumventing the Prot the way Onorato did: hull mold made in Spain, trucked to Italy to a shed for quick lamination, brought back to Spain to receive deck and all subsequent boatwork

Edit: and launched in-country, too

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40 minutes ago, Xlot said:

 

Vacuum-bagged lamination is pretty much a commodity nowadays. Rather, also considering ague's post, I would stress country of assembly. This to avoid circumventing the Prot the way Onorato did: hull mold made in Spain, trucked to Italy to a shed for quick lamination, brought back to Spain to receive deck and all subsequent boatwork

Edit: and launched in-country, too

As a kiwi I think this is build in own country is crap. Its just an attempt to stiffle competition. Any way people can get around this bullshit rule, Im all in favour of happening. However Im not totally convinced this is a soley a ETNZ decision but also a Luna Rossa decision as well. 

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2 hours ago, mako23 said:

As a kiwi I think this is build in own country is crap. Its just an attempt to stiffle competition. Any way people can get around this bullshit rule, Im all in favour of happening. However Im not totally convinced this is a soley a ETNZ decision but also a Luna Rossa decision as well. 

What? The CiC is core and center of the DoG. Unfortunately it was raped by the last defenders until unrecognizable.
Good that RNZYS/TNZ plus CVR/LR have reinstated it.

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Of course it all depends on what the protocol ACTUALLY says when it come out, but...speculation is fun. 

Problems with CiC are:

1. If the threshold is a certain percentage CiC, how do you accurately measure it without spending millions on some accounting firm? 

2. If the threshold is certain components, how do you make it fair to countries without specialities in those components? If electronics are included, most countries are in trouble. If spars are included, most countries are in trouble. If sails are included, most countries are in trouble. Layer these and figure out which countries can construct or manufacture the electronics AND the spars AND the sails. How many is that, maybe 4? Not likely including Italy. 

3. If it includes design, how do you measure where design work is done in the age of the internet? 

Seems to me that the danger is that GD is making the cup both more expensive and narrowing competition. On the other hand, maybe it's just hull (and foils), in which case most countries can manufacture high-end graphite composites these days. 

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Oh come on Rennmaus. The press statement says nothing specific at all.

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23 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Oh come on Rennmaus. The press statement says nothing specific at all.

At least it recognizes CiC. Whereas the others...

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As a statement of intent, it sets out a good initial starting point. 

The CiC is important to most and needs to reinforced after Larryvision.

The nationality clause I guess is their to stop the likes of Team Japan, I can't believe it's intended for Jimmy or Glen and they would have little problem fulfilling the requirement. However Artemis would need serious restructuring, but then who believes AR is Swedish. My reading is the nationality clause is being used as a sacrifice to ensure a strong CiC clause.

At least we have some idea of time frame.

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^ Exactly, all we got was 'September.' Which is fine, it sure beats the 8 months that it took last time.

CiC and crew Nationality rules will almost certainly be more stringent than in this past Cup but we have no idea yet how much different; only that they will exist again. Don't see why they even bothered to mention it.

It is of course their right to implement both CiC and crew restrictions as they choose to but, again, crew restrictions are ~not~ in any part of the Deed and so the released statement linking the two (Deed and crew) is disingenuous. Oh well..

--

 

This Cup is donated upon the condition that it shall be preserved as a perpetual challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries.

Any organized yacht Club of a foreign country, incorporated, patented, or licensed by the legislature, admiralty or other executive department, having for its annual regatta an ocean water course on the sea, or on an arm of the sea, or one which combines both, shall always be entitled to the right of sailing a match for this Cup with a yacht or vessel propelled by sails only and constructed in the country to which the challenging Club belongs, against any one yacht or vessel constructed in the country of the Club holding the Cup. The competing yachts or vessels, if of one mast, shall be not less than sixty-five forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water line; if of more than one mast, they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water line.

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Deed_of_Gift

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19 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ Exactly, all we got was 'September.' Which is fine, it sure beats the 8 months that it took last time.

CiC and crew Nationality rules will almost certainly be more stringent than in this past Cup but we have no idea yet how much different; only that they will exist again. Don't see why they even bothered to mention it.

It is of course their right to implement both CiC and crew restrictions as they choose to but, again, crew restrictions are ~not~ in any part of the Deed and so the released statement linking the two (Deed and crew) is disingenuous. Oh well..

--

 

This Cup is donated upon the condition that it shall be preserved as a perpetual challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries.

Any organized yacht Club of a foreign country, incorporated, patented, or licensed by the legislature, admiralty or other executive department, having for its annual regatta an ocean water course on the sea, or on an arm of the sea, or one which combines both, shall always be entitled to the right of sailing a match for this Cup with a yacht or vessel propelled by sails only and constructed in the country to which the challenging Club belongs, against any one yacht or vessel constructed in the country of the Club holding the Cup. The competing yachts or vessels, if of one mast, shall be not less than sixty-five forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water line; if of more than one mast, they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water line.

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Deed_of_Gift

Agree.

Although I am somehow emotionally pro nat rules for the crew, I don't want to be.

They are not part of the DoG, except for the "friendly competition between foreign countries", and this would include lots of interpretation beyond the 4 corners. But they can be MCed, as they probably belong to "any and all other conditions of the match".

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^ Agree - although my interpretation of a "friendly competition between foreign countries" is that the competition is actually all about the boats of the foreign countries.

And I am not against lots of crew nationality, I just think it's wrong to try tie that to the DoG; and would regardless prefer it be left mostly to choice by (the YC) syndicates.

My ~guess~ is that the CiC rules will be a lot like AC34 - hulls built in country, not much else to it; and that crew Nationality will create the much bigger problem for some teams contemplating AC36. Including the 3 biggest $B's in AC35, those from the USA, Sweden and Japan.. very-very big money guys who Auckland may be hoping will do some splurging down there.

If crew is more determinative than CiC they are getting it backwards.

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from http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/national/no-surprise-at-strengthening-of-americas-cup-nationality-rules/

Team New Zealand is considering Auckland's Hauraki Gulf as the venue for the cup defence in early 2021.

But Lester said the syndicate still seems to be negotiating a hosting deal and nothing is set in stone.

"They certainly haven't come out and said that Auckland will be the venue so that would indicate to me that there is still a dialogue going on whether it's central government and local government."

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47 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

The competing yachts or vessels, if of one mast, shall be not less than sixty-five forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water line; if of more than one mast, they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water line.

I know it won't happen, but I'd love to see a 115ft foiling cat with a wing mast on each hull. 

dream on :)

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4 minutes ago, laser 173312 said:

I know it won't happen, but I'd love to see a 115ft foiling cat with a wing mast on each hull. 

dream on :)

We did a lot of dreaming about that possibility here before eventually figuring out Alinghi 5's length. Yes, that would be quite a boat!

As it turned out, DZ's outer hulls came in just inches short of 115', but the center hull (load water line) was right at 90'. Beast!

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Yer, I remember there was problems in measuring Dogzilla with all it's equipment and getting a calm enough piece of water. Of course SNG wanted to eliminate DZ at any cost.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ Exactly, all we got was 'September.' Which is fine, it sure beats the 8 months that it took last time.

CiC and crew Nationality rules will almost certainly be more stringent than in this past Cup but we have no idea yet how much different; only that they will exist again. Don't see why they even bothered to mention it.

It is of course their right to implement both CiC and crew restrictions as they choose to but, again, crew restrictions are ~not~ in any part of the Deed and so the released statement linking the two (Deed and crew) is disingenuous. Oh well..

--

 

This Cup is donated upon the condition that it shall be preserved as a perpetual challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries.

Any organized yacht Club of a foreign country, incorporated, patented, or licensed by the legislature, admiralty or other executive department, having for its annual regatta an ocean water course on the sea, or on an arm of the sea, or one which combines both, shall always be entitled to the right of sailing a match for this Cup with a yacht or vessel propelled by sails only and constructed in the country to which the challenging Club belongs, against any one yacht or vessel constructed in the country of the Club holding the Cup. The competing yachts or vessels, if of one mast, shall be not less than sixty-five forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water line; if of more than one mast, they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water line.

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Deed_of_Gift

 

We got a likely time frame - one of the things you have been wittering on about.

We got confirmation of CIC and crew nationality 'tightening', which allows serious teams to start some planning in these areas.

As both Rennmaus and ETNZ pointed out, it's the 'competition between Nations' (and yacht Club of a foreign country, country to which the challenging Club belongs, country of the Club holding the Cup) wording that was the ground for the Nationality requirements - see how that works? Not difficult.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, laser 173312 said:

As a statement of intent, it sets out a good initial starting point. 

The CiC is important to most and needs to reinforced after Larryvision.

The nationality clause I guess is their to stop the likes of Team Japan, I can't believe it's intended for Jimmy or Glen and they would have little problem fulfilling the requirement. However Artemis would need serious restructuring, but then who believes AR is Swedish. My reading is the nationality clause is being used as a sacrifice to ensure a strong CiC clause.

At least we have some idea of time frame.

Who believes they are not Swedish?  The owner is Swedish, they had more Swedish folk on their team than OR-BDA had American's and then there is the boat:

30lc4gh.jpg

And lets not forget Victory Challenge from 2003 and 2007.  So building an AC boat in Sweden shouldn't be an issue.  Then when you consider Torbjorn Tornqvist has been fielding an Artemis Racing Youth team full of young Swedes along with his Artemis Racing team in the RC44 class and I fail to see where this major restructuring is coming from.  If Artemis continues into AC36 they should be a worthy challenger.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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36 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Who believes they are not Swedish?  The owner is Swedish, they had more Swedish folk on their team than OR-BDA had American's and then there is the boat:

30lc4gh.jpg

And lets not forget Victory Challenge from 2003 and 2007.  So building an AC boat in Sweden shouldn't be an issue.  Then when you consider Torbjorn Tornqvist has been fielding an Artemis Racing Youth team full of young Swedes along with his Artemis Racing team in the RC44 class and I fail to see where this major restructuring is coming from.  If Artemis continues into AC36 they should be a worthy challenger.

WetHog  :ph34r:

+1 No doubt in my mind whatsoever, Hoggie.

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46 minutes ago, nav said:

 

We got a likely time frame - one of the things you have been wittering on about.

We got confirmation of CIC and crew nationality 'tightening', which allows serious teams to start some planning in these areas.

As both Rennmaus and ETNZ pointed out, it's the 'competition between Nations' (and yacht Club of a foreign country, country to which the challenging Club belongs, country of the Club holding the Cup) wording that was the ground for the Nationality requirements - see how that works? Not difficult.

 

Agreed that we got a 'likely' timeframe for the event. Good to know it's at least their working intention, Auckland too.

You're still wrong about the competition; the DoG is clear about the nationality being all about YC's CiC boats. Anything else, such as forcing on everyone some arbitrary percentage of where crew have to be from, is simply MC.

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8 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

Vacuum-bagged lamination is pretty much a commodity nowadays. Rather, also considering ague's post, I would stress country of assembly. This to avoid circumventing the Prot the way Onorato did: hull mold made in Spain, trucked to Italy to a shed for quick lamination, brought back to Spain to receive deck and all subsequent boatwork

Edit: and launched in-country, too

Sailed to the Defenders country on its own bum would be even better, no? :D

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19 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Agreed that we got a 'likely' timeframe for the event. Good to know it's at least their working intention, Auckland too.

You're still wrong about the competition; the DoG is clear about the nationality being all about YC's CiC boats. Anything else, such as forcing on everyone some arbitrary percentage of where crew have to be from, is simply MC.

 

ETNZ gave their reasoning for tightening Nationality areas (you stated there was no justification), and I quoted the sections of the Deed that reinforce that idea.

Which bits of GS's wording you personally find significant - is of zero relevancy

 

And despite your assertion, the deed is in not clear about the exact significance to be given to the deliberately chosen and repeated phrases like; between Nations, country to which the challenging Club belongs.

Funny that you claim CIC is a clear requirement, yet your heroes whittled that one down to insignificance - with your blessing. Why worry yourself about the intention or wording of the Deed at all.......

 

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5 minutes ago, nav said:

Which bits of GS's wording you personally find significant - is of zero relevancy

It's not the which bits, crew is nowhere in there but 'Yacht or vessel' is the focus throughout the bits.. Read it again.

Like Rennie and everyone else recognize, MC allows for a lot else but, just like what we saw in the most recent DoG Match, crew Nationality had f-all to do with it; in GS's time either.

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 You have no credibility in suddenly being a Deed defender, more so when you obviously struggle to understand a short public bulletin

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It is the owners and the afterguard - not the galley slaves - who represent the country. Look at the history of the cup. So really, the only teams that would be effected are ETNZ (Glenn Ashby) and JPN(Barker). Spithill is legally American at this point.

The build in-country clause will mostly just (negatively) impact the NZ boat building business. OR has pumped tens of millions into the NZ economy (probably 100s of millions in aggregate) and that would be shut down. And although I can imagine Core setting up satellite operations in the USA (should there be a challenger) and/or Sweden, my gut is that would not be necessary - those teams (which are hardly cash starved) would just spend a little more money to do it on home turf with other suppliers. The French and Italians already have the infrastructure, and I'm guessing the Brits have caught up by now after a slow start in this cup cycle. 

 

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19 minutes ago, nav said:

 You have no credibility in suddenly being a Deed defender, more so when you obviously struggle to understand a short public bulletin

Here's the para they put out

 

In recognition of the fundamental condition of the Deed of Gift that the Cup be preserved as a perpetual Challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries, the Protocol will contain a “constructed in country” requirement for competing yachts and a nationality requirement for competing crew members.

Source: ETNZ

me: They link the Deed to "constructed in country" which is good but then extend it to "crew members" which is where they (intentionally?) are a touch deceptive since unlike the first phrase, that second one is completely missing from the Deed - and from its earliest history even under MC.

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10 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Here's the para they put out

 

In recognition of the fundamental condition of the Deed of Gift that the Cup be preserved as a perpetual Challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries, the Protocol will contain a “constructed in country” requirement for competing yachts and a nationality requirement for competing crew members.

Source: ETNZ

me: They link the Deed to "constructed in country" which is good but then extend it to "crew members" which is where they (intentionally?) are a touch deceptive since unlike the first phrase, that second one is completely missing from the Deed - and from its earliest history even under MC.

Didn't this Cup have a Nationality clause? Wasn't it something like 10%, just meant of a crew of six, only one had to be a national

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7 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Didn't this Cup have a Nationality clause? Wasn't it something like 10%, just meant of a crew of six, only one had to be a national

Yes, it was something like 20% which, after the boat and crew size change, turned into just one sailor.

I expect they will go 50% or higher this time. RC has said it was also his hope that it would climb, but gradually, basically for just broadcast/PR/advertising audience-draw reasons. Nothing whatsoever is 'Deed' about it.

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18 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Yes, it was something like 20% which, after the boat and crew size change, turned into just one sailor.

I expect they will go 50% or higher this time. RC has said it was also his hope that it would climb, but gradually, basically for just broadcast/PR/advertising audience-draw reasons. Nothing whatsoever is 'Deed' about it.

50% rounded up is the right ratio for me.

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1 minute ago, Boybland said:

50% rounded up is the right ratio for me.

My guess is they will go 80%, maybe with a lower allowance for 'new' YC/teams/countries - which would surely draw some nasty/interesting legal arguments into things.

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22 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Yes, it was something like 20% which, after the boat and crew size change, turned into just one sailor.

I expect they will go 50% or higher this time. RC has said it was also his hope that it would climb, but gradually, basically for just broadcast/PR/advertising audience-draw reasons. Nothing whatsoever is 'Deed' about it.

There really isn't much "Deed" left about the AC. There was certainly nothing "Deed" about the Framework Agreement many were touting as the best thing for the future. Seems when Oracle were defending, the Deed was an antiquated piece of paper that had no place in 2017, but now that ETNZ are defending, the Deed must be complied with to the letter, otherwise they have a problem.

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20 minutes ago, sclarke said:

There really isn't much "Deed" left about the AC. There was certainly nothing "Deed" about the Framework Agreement many were touting as the best thing for the future. Seems when Oracle were defending, the Deed was an antiquated piece of paper that had no place in 2017, but now that ETNZ are defending, the Deed must be complied with to the letter, otherwise they have a problem.

Agree, it's definitely antiquated. Even CiC has become relatively meaningless, and even if you apply it to native-born Designers (where the emphasis traditionally was) since they can access thinking from anywhere in the world now.

Nobody is arguing that ETNZ is not following the Deed to the letter, my only point is that while they have the right to MC crew nationality it is disingenuous to link it to what the Deed actually is about; for example when it has been held as a real DoG Match and the hired help was irrelevant, and even under early-challenge MC Matches. The motivation to enforce stricter crew rules is some combination of money from hoped-for bigger viewership interest, and possibly a secondarily goal to attack against the strongest competitive syndicates to, intentionally, weaken them. All MC-able.

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7 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Agree, it's definitely antiquated. Even CiC has become relatively meaningless, and even if you apply it to native-born Designers (where the emphasis traditionally was) since they can access thinking from anywhere in the world now.

Nobody is arguing that ETNZ is not following the Deed to the letter, my only point is that while they have the right to MC crew nationality it is disingenuous to link it to what the Deed actually is about, for example were it has been held as a real DoG Match and the hired help was irrelevant. The motivation to enforce stricter crew rules is some combination of money from hoped-for bigger viewership interest, and possibly a secondarily goal to attack against the strongest competitive syndicates to, intentionally, weaken them. All MC-able.

Ha, ha. I'm enjoying your flip-flop on fairness immensely, Stinger. :D Keep it up. 

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^ Nothing is unfair so far, all good.

Auckland as the venue is not Deed required but here's hoping they can get it done. That pier full of cars looks like a pretty great spot to just repurpose, wouldn't take much to cash out the current Port tenant. Would be a 15 minute decision in Seattle, the money is tiny.

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I'm with you on 80% Stingray, believe it is going to be quite stringent on the sailors.

It'll be in Auckland, plans for where the bases will go are advancing (ATEED (council owned event company) CEO was in Bermuda for a time)

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13 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Agree, it's definitely antiquated. Even CiC has become relatively meaningless, and even if you apply it to native-born Designers (where the emphasis traditionally was) since they can access thinking from anywhere in the world now.

Nobody is arguing that ETNZ is not following the Deed to the letter, my only point is that while they have the right to MC crew nationality it is disingenuous to link it to what the Deed actually is about; for example when it has been held as a real DoG Match and the hired help was irrelevant, and even under early-challenge MC Matches. The motivation to enforce stricter crew rules is some combination of money from hoped-for bigger viewership interest, and possibly a secondarily goal to attack against the strongest competitive syndicates to, intentionally, weaken them. All MC-able.

They didn't link it to what the deed is actually about, what they stated was "in recognition of the fundamental condition of the deed of gift that the cup be preserved as a perpetual challenge cup for friendly competition between foreign countries, the protocol will contain a "constructed in country" requirement for competing yachts AND a nationality requirement for competing crew members" None of that is disingenuous. It is only disingenuous if you want them to follow the DoG to the letter. After all the only thing linking the CiC and the Nationality clause to the DoG in the ETNZ statement is the fact that there is no full stop after the competing yachts sentence. If the sentence containing the Nationality clause was a new sentence, the two would no longer be linked. But come on, now you're splitting hairs.

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