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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Barnyb

AC36 Auckland NZ

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8 hours ago, sclarke said:

No, most punters who care about the deed will know the two aren't linked, and will see the statement for what it is

Spinray will bitch about everything ETNZ does, just as he did his bit to enable everything OTUSA pumped out.

His post-defeat 'be reasonable and suck-up to the winners' honeymoon is clearly over

Mandating flags on wings is not required by the Deed either (there are dozens of examples), but comes from the same thinking (or 'vision' if you prefer) - yet we didn't hear any complaints from No.1 fanboy

Trying to justify the London Coup, demanding (his take on) strict Deed compliance from the new Trustee and COR while promoting a rebel RC50 Circus - is clearly doing his head in.

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16 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

'Newshub's Greg Pearson spoke to Duncan Garner.' Audio 

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2017/07/america-s-cup-2021-what-can-you-expect.html

'The new rules proposed will screw Oracle so we can be happy about that'

That was a waste of time watching that interview.  Not sure how the vague rules we know now can screw OR.  At least 5 OR boats were built in the US, which includes the DoGy.  Why can't a 6th.  Then there is the bit about what the little guy (Greg Pearson?) said about other teams being able to crew their own boats without Kiwi's, just un-informed drivel.  Cocky even.  I thought Kiwi's were above that stuff?  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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12 hours ago, sclarke said:

I wouldn't credit Russell with any of that. It was pure genius on the part of ETNZ to design and successfully build, test and race a foiling machine. It was revolutionary, and something I think ETNZ is not given enough credit for. It was the Kiwi's who introduced foiling to the Americas Cup, something Oracle tends to take credit for. The one thing we can credit Russell for doing (depending on who you talk to of course) is switching from one hull, to two. The design package which was envisioned was not to foil at all. It was just smart thinking on the part of ETNZ to take advantage of a loophole in the rules to allow the boats to foil. That was not Russells vision or Russells design. Again, Russells vision failed, he touted a Framework Agreement as the way forward, which is now null and void. He stopped free viewing of races, and faces a backlash from thousands of unhappy fans. Again, it was the Kiwi's who took the game to the next level. Not Russell.

Weren't the boat designers who came up with the foiling design Americans working for ETNZ?  

I don't think they get enough credit.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

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9 hours ago, mako23 said:

To be honest the Cup need wankers like  Russell Coutts

They play the bad men role in Wrestling...he gives people a reason to watch ...even if it to see him lose.

Wrestling has long figured out that " people trash talking each other" brings in the viewers

what we need in the press conferences is people slagging each other,  like they did in Fremantle. It provides entertainment . We don't want it to go to anything like wrestling however a few pointed comments is a good thing. That's what Dennis Conner, Brad Butterworth and Paul Cayard provided. In the old days press conferences were fun. 

jimmy themouth.jpg

Oracles new spokes man calling ETNZ a bunch of FUCKEN CHEATS

I am with you.  And after watching that Greg Pearson interview I am reminded of the perfect ETNZ spokesperson for AC36. 

34oc8zo.jpg

He is even wearing all black. ;)

Can someone photo shop the Cup in place of the urn?  That would be sweet.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Maybe the wrong thread for this.  Pretend it refers to the nationality thing.

I don’t believe women should be given preferential treatment in sports (except that childbirth thing.)  That said, are there sailing women out there that, given a shot, would have a decent chance at full membership as an AC36 crew?  I would like to see some women crew if they are qualified.

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30 minutes ago, pluscount said:

Maybe the wrong thread for this.  Pretend it refers to the nationality thing.

I don’t believe women should be given preferential treatment in sports (except that childbirth thing.)  That said, are there sailing women out there that, given a shot, would have a decent chance at full membership as an AC36 crew?  I would like to see some women crew if they are qualified.

If you tell us what boat will be used for AC36, people might tell you which crew (women and men) could probably handle it best.

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It would be as easy to specify a minimum number of women to crew, as it is to specify a minimum number of nationals - if they wanted to

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I think the discussion on CIC rules need to take into account the type of boat class that'll be in place. There are only a handful of technical builders with experience with AC sized multihull on foils. OTOH if the rules are more open development class, a lot of countries have the talent needed to put together a competitive boat via means they have. 

For example? Team Japan won't have a problem building a boat, fabricating composites isn't a technical hurdle for Japan. Japan's weakness is more a lack of sailing talent/team org and design. If the rules permit them to build in Yokohama but import foreign expertise, Japan can be competitive in a hurry. There's definitely enough discipline and money if they can get enough sponsors together. 

 

For me the biggest questions are whether France and Australia is going to bother to put together a program. 

 

As for folks complaining about a lack of details? It is not yet August. Relax. 

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22 hours ago, WetHog said:

Who believes they are not Swedish?  The owner is Swedish,

WetHog  :ph34r:

I had Percy and Outridge in mind when I mentioned restructuring. And probably a beer when I made the later follow on comment. <_<

Gawd, you can't even talk bullshit on SA after a few jars now.

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14 minutes ago, laser 173312 said:

I had Percy and Outridge in mind when I mentioned restructuring. And probably a beer when I made the later follow on comment. <_<

Gawd, you can't even talk bullshit on SA after a few jars now.

There is a smiley face icon at the top of the message box.  Click on it and a bunch of different faces pops up you can choose in helping explain the tone of your comment.  :P

WetHog  :ph34r:

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6 hours ago, WetHog said:

Weren't the boat designers who came up with the foiling design Americans working for ETNZ?  

I don't think they get enough credit.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

Yes, well played.

But as I've stated before it is the team culture that enables this innovation.

The very same people working at any other team would not likely have come up with this.

Orifice the team seems very like Orifice the company in that they are risk averse to the point that innovation is stifled.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Yes, well played.

But as I've stated before it is the team culture that enables this innovation.

The very same people working at any other team would not likely have come up with this.

Orifice the team seems very like Orifice the company in that they are risk averse to the point that innovation is stifled.

Which is why campaign after campaigin even though the designers change the innovation continues.

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1 hour ago, Boybland said:

Which is why campaign after campaigin even though the designers change the innovation continues.

This is not to detract from the amazing skill of the American (and other) designers that came up with the innovation.

Its just that we all have either worked at places or know of places where the very thought of innovation or risk simply spooks the horses.

Better to lose safely than win riskily.

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15 hours ago, nav said:

Spinray will bitch about everything ETNZ does, just as he did his bit to enable everything OTUSA pumped out.

His post-defeat 'be reasonable and suck-up to the winners' honeymoon is clearly over

Mandating flags on wings is not required by the Deed either (there are dozens of examples), but comes from the same thinking (or 'vision' if you prefer) - yet we didn't hear any complaints from No.1 fanboy

Trying to justify the London Coup, demanding (his take on) strict Deed compliance from the new Trustee and COR while promoting a rebel RC50 Circus - is clearly doing his head in.

Just quote him "Four more years!!":)

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5 hours ago, jaysper said:

Yes, well played.

But as I've stated before it is the team culture that enables this innovation.

The very same people working at any other team would not likely have come up with this.

Orifice the team seems very like Orifice the company in that they are risk averse to the point that innovation is stifled.

Would you call a 90 foot tri with a 100 whatever foot wing sail risk averse?  Or how bout taming a 72 foot cat, after a almost devastating capsize, in barely enough time to defend the Cup risk averse?

Also, it could be argued, credibly, that the reason ETNZ lost AC32 and AC34 is because they chose safe thoroughly designed boats based on what happened to them in AC31 that didn't allow ETNZ to take certain risks needed to win the Cup either time.   Some of you Kiwi fans are still sporting your tractor avatars from AC34.   Then ETNZ took a risk with cyclors and an x-box controller and won  

I know it's pat yourselves on the back time, and well deserved, but let's not get carried away.  Every successful Challenger and Defender has taken risks.   That's how you win the Americas Cup.

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

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27 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Would you call a 90 foot tri with a 100 whatever foot wing sail risk averse?  Or how bout taming a 72 foot cat, after a almost devastating capsize, in barely enough time to defend the Cup risk averse?

Also, it could be argued, credibly, that the reason ETNZ lost AC32 and AC34 is because they chose safe thoroughly designed boats based on what happened to them in AC31 that didn't allow ETNZ to take certain risks needed to win the Cup either time.   Some of you Kiwi fans are still sporting your tractor avatars from AC34.   Then ETNZ took a risk with cyclors and an x-box controller and won  

I know it's pat yourselves on the back time, and well deserved, but let's not get carried away.  Every successful Challenger and Defender has taken risks.   That's how you win the Americas Cup.

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

We should clarify the different types of risk

1 Deadly Risk

The AC72 boats were killers, the risk to life and limb was a reality

2 Construction Risk

Build to sturdy and lose (Kiwi AC72), build to light and it might sink (One Australia)

3 Design Risk

Take a radical design might or might not work in water in reality

Mariner in the 12 Meters is a classic design risk dog

Australia II is a design risk winner

Risk and the Americas Cup go hand in hand, however

Deadly Risk should be avoided...its a boat race not worth someone be killed over

Construction Risk ( Is linked to Deadly Risk) can be avoided by minimum building standards and design specs

Design Risk---Should be encouraged at all times, id like to see modular construction of hulls so syndicates can make changes in Bows and Sterns  without wrecking the boat

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27 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Would you call a 90 foot tri with a 100 whatever foot wing sail risk averse?  Or how bout taming a 72 foot cat, after a almost devastating capsize, in barely enough time to defend the Cup risk averse?

Also, it could be argued, credibly, that the reason ETNZ lost AC32 and AC34 is because they chose safe thoroughly designed boats based on what happened to them in AC31 that didn't allow ETNZ to take certain risks needed to win the Cup either time.   Some of you Kiwi fans are still sporting your tractor avatars from AC34.   Then ETNZ took a risk with cyclors and an x-box controller and won  

I know it's pat yourselves on the back time, and well deserved, but let's not get carried away.  Every successful Challenger and Defender has taken risks.   That's how you win the Americas Cup.

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

Look, I will happily bash Orifice ALL day for their shitty treatment of the cup but I won't say they don't have a talented bunch of peeps - because that's just not true.

However, one of their strengths is CLEARLY not a desire to take risks/innovate.

1. 90 foot tri with wing - I don't see this as being particularly risky myself nor overly innovative but its as close as Oracle came.

2. In '13 they had no choice but to suck it up and get on with taming the '72 cat and go foiling because the alternative was to lose the cup is truly spectacular fashion.

3. Finally this time, there just seemed to be no effort to innovate.

It seems clear to me that as time progressed that they started to believe their own press that they were invincible and what little risk taking they did partake in got less and less until they were happy to do pretty much what everyone else was doing.

With regards to AC32 you are 100% correct. The disaster that was AC31 left mental scars on ETNZ that cut far too deep in AC32.

And yes, those scars were still evident in AC34 to some extent. But ETNZ was THE TEAM that made those cats foil when they simply weren't meant to.

Come AC35, the scars had completely healed and ETNZ were back to their innovative best.

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12 hours ago, WetHog said:

I am with you.  And after watching that Greg Pearson interview I am reminded of the perfect ETNZ spokesperson for AC36. 

34oc8zo.jpg

He is even wearing all black. ;)

Can someone photo shop the Cup in place of the urn?  That would be sweet.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Ok two points that guy is Paul Bearer and hes dead ...so a tad unlikely even for ETNZ

second point how in gods earth you know about Greg Pearson even I ignore his show and I live in NZ !!!

 

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11 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Look, I will happily bash your Orifice ALL day long for their shitty treatment of the cup but I won't say they don't have a talented bunch of peeps - because that's just not true.

1. 90 foot tri with wing - I don't see this as being particularly risky myself nor overly innovative but its as close as Oracle came.

Jaysper agree with nearly everything you said except point no 1 listed above. 

Building a wing for a 90 Foot Tri seems risky to me. I don't think a wing for a yacht that big had ever been built before. So lots of unknowns were at foot, which does involve risks.

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Just now, mako23 said:

Jaysper agree with nearly everything you said except point no 1 listed above. 

Building a wing for a 90 Foot Tri seems risky to me. I don't think a wing for a yacht that big had ever been built before. So lots of unknowns were at foot, which does involve risks.

I know S&S was quite a bit smaller, but was still in a similar-ish scale.

Furthermore, they were racing another multi-hull who did NOT have a wing and so didn't need to be on the cutting edge in terms of structural integrity etc. like the AC 72 or 50 wings needed to be. Finally, they were racing is about half a knot of breeze (exaggeration I know) and so the loads were hardly horrendous.

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On 7/20/2017 at 11:57 AM, ~Stingray~ said:

A bit off the wall but fwiw: https://www.mscnewswire.co.nz/component/k2/item/4871-team-nz-link-to-53m-expo-pavilion.html

Emirates’ sponsorship of America’s Cup winners Team New Zealand was cited as part of a case for participation in a Dubai expo that will cost taxpayers $53 million, documents show.

Other factors cited for giving “serious consideration” to committing to Expo 2020 included growing defence and security links with the United Arab Emirates — which Dubai is part of — and the economic value of Emirates’ daily flights to New Zealand.

Kinda suggests that Emirates Airlines scored BIG time from their involvement with the TNZ sponsorship. Good on them. Great to see their faith rewarded.

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39 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Kinda suggests that Emirates Airlines scored BIG time from their involvement with the TNZ sponsorship. Good on them. Great to see their faith rewarded.

Yup, but I agree with Seymour that ANYTHING can be made to sound financially beneficial if you're desperate enough.

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11 hours ago, pluscount said:

Maybe the wrong thread for this.  Pretend it refers to the nationality thing.

I don’t believe women should be given preferential treatment in sports (except that childbirth thing.)  That said, are there sailing women out there that, given a shot, would have a decent chance at full membership as an AC36 crew?  I would like to see some women crew if they are qualified.

Have your forgotten Mighty Mary the all female crews in 95 cup, I've even given you a link 

Mighty Mary

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Yup, but I agree with Seymour that ANYTHING can be made to sound financially beneficial if you're desperate enough.

Why would they be desperate?

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Why would they be desperate?

Not etnz. The government troughers at mfat who want yet another reason to travel the world on the taxpayers dime.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Not etnz. The government troughers at mfat who want yet another reason to travel the world on the taxpayers dime.

Never under estimate the govt ability to waste tax payers money 

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19 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Never under estimate the govt ability to waste tax payers money 

Oh boy trust me, I NEVER underestimate that.

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26 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

I guess the Govt will be setting up sheep farms in Dubai soon?

The land surrounding Dubai makes the Australian desert look like a tropical jungle

So perfect place for sheep farming 

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10 hours ago, jaysper said:

Look, I will happily bash Orifice ALL day for their shitty treatment of the cup but I won't say they don't have a talented bunch of peeps - because that's just not true.

However, one of their strengths is CLEARLY not a desire to take risks/innovate.

1. 90 foot tri with wing - I don't see this as being particularly risky myself nor overly innovative but its as close as Oracle came.

2. In '13 they had no choice but to suck it up and get on with taming the '72 cat and go foiling because the alternative was to lose the cup is truly spectacular fashion.

3. Finally this time, there just seemed to be no effort to innovate.

It seems clear to me that as time progressed that they started to believe their own press that they were invincible and what little risk taking they did partake in got less and less until they were happy to do pretty much what everyone else was doing.

With regards to AC32 you are 100% correct. The disaster that was AC31 left mental scars on ETNZ that cut far too deep in AC32.

And yes, those scars were still evident in AC34 to some extent. But ETNZ was THE TEAM that made those cats foil when they simply weren't meant to.

Come AC35, the scars had completely healed and ETNZ were back to their innovative best.

Bash OR all you want.  No skin off my nose, they deserve it, but OR being risk averse in AC33 or AC34 I don't see it.  Agree to disagree.

10 hours ago, mako23 said:

Ok two points that guy is Paul Bearer and hes dead ...so a tad unlikely even for ETNZ

second point how in gods earth you know about Greg Pearson even I ignore his show and I live in NZ !!!

 

Yes he is dead, but I didn't mean him literally.  Are you suggesting an AC team literally employ The Mouth of the South Jimmy Hart?

And someone posted a link to a video with Greg Pearson talking about something he knows nothing about.  Without that link I never would of know who that asshat is.  

10 hours ago, mako23 said:

We should clarify the different types of risk

1 Deadly Risk

The AC72 boats were killers, the risk to life and limb was a reality

2 Construction Risk

Build to sturdy and lose (Kiwi AC72), build to light and it might sink (One Australia)

3 Design Risk

Take a radical design might or might not work in water in reality

Mariner in the 12 Meters is a classic design risk dog

Australia II is a design risk winner

Risk and the Americas Cup go hand in hand, however

Deadly Risk should be avoided...its a boat race not worth someone be killed over

Construction Risk ( Is linked to Deadly Risk) can be avoided by minimum building standards and design specs

Design Risk---Should be encouraged at all times, id like to see modular construction of hulls so syndicates can make changes in Bows and Sterns  without wrecking the boat

You can break risk down however you want, but risk is risk in my opinion.  Ultimately, no risk no reward.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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9 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Bash OR all you want.  No skin off my nose, they deserve it, but OR being risk averse in AC33 or AC34 I don't see it.  Agree to disagree.

Yes he is dead, but I didn't mean him literally.  Are you suggesting an AC team literally employ The Mouth of the South Jimmy Hart?

And someone posted a link to a video with Greg Pearson talking about something he knows nothing about.  Without that link I never would of know who that asshat is.  

You can break risk down however you want, but risk is risk in my opinion.  Ultimately, no risk no reward.

WetHog  :ph34r:

No  I do not mean we should hire wrestling managers. Just making the point a loud mouth helps brings in the punters and TV video camera crews. 

In regards to Risk all I want know is what type of risk do you have in mind

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21 hours ago, WetHog said:

There is a smiley face icon at the top of the message box.  Click on it and a bunch of different faces pops up you can choose in helping explain the tone of your comment.  :P

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

Do you know the saying about grandma's and egg sucking? :angry:

 

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11 hours ago, Barnyb said:

I guess the Govt will be setting up sheep farms in Dubai soon?

I think they've tried that already, Barny. I think most of the sheep died of heat exhaustion before any meaningful relationships even got established.

I believe they prefer goats anyway. ;)

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7 hours ago, WetHog said:

Bash OR all you want.  No skin off my nose, they deserve it, but OR being risk averse in AC33 or AC34 I don't see it.  Agree to disagree.

Yes he is dead, but I didn't mean him literally.  Are you suggesting an AC team literally employ The Mouth of the South Jimmy Hart?

And someone posted a link to a video with Greg Pearson talking about something he knows nothing about.  Without that link I never would of know who that asshat is.  

You can break risk down however you want, but risk is risk in my opinion.  Ultimately, no risk no reward.

WetHog  :ph34r:

What a load of shit,

F1 was extremely risky and they changed rules and courses to reduce it. Risk can be classified in many different ways, there is inherent and unavoidable risk by simply participating in any yacht race, ETNZ built their AC 72 with safety as a priority and no one died, the boat could have been a lot faster but they decided a sailors life was more important than a yacht race.

 

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8 hours ago, WetHog said:

Bash OR all you want.  No skin off my nose, they deserve it, but OR being risk averse in AC33 or AC34 I don't see it.  Agree to disagree.

...

WetHog  :ph34r:

ETNZ took another big, agreessive 'rules-loophole' risk in AC34 that damn nearly beat Oracle (who had understood and played by the rules 'as-intended' i.e.: to prevent the costs associated with actual full-out foiling) and ETNZ deserves some credit for that 'risk' - and gain with 'aggressive' blow-by take on the 'manual input' intended rules in AC35. 

But NOTHING in my lifetime is likely to top DogZilla. Including for the incredibly bold engineering audacity to sail that monster with the BIGGEST WING EVER BUILT OF ANY KIND. 231 feet tall when it hit the Race 1 start line of AC33 in Valencia. Incredible!

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

I think they've tried that already, Barny. I think most of the sheep died of heat exhaustion before any meaningful relationships even got established.

I believe they prefer goats anyway. ;)

For their meaningful relationships? I think so.

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3 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

ETNZ took another big, agreessive 'rules-loophole' risk in AC34 that damn nearly beat Oracle (who had understood and played by the rules 'as-intended' i.e.: to prevent the costs associated with actual full-out foiling) and ETNZ deserves some credit for that 'risk' - and gain with 'aggressive' blow-by take on the 'manual input' intended rules in AC35. 

But NOTHING in my lifetime is likely to top DogZilla. Including for the incredibly bold engineering audacity to sail that monster with the BIGGEST WING EVER BUILT OF ANY KIND. 231 feet tall when it hit the Race 1 start line of AC33 in Valencia. Incredible!

 

 

 

Yep. Quite a mis-match that one. Maybe not the biggest in AC history, but significant non-the-less.

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

For their meaningful relationships? I think so.

Personally, I prefer a bit more fat with my squeeze. Goat is very lean. ;)

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16 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Personally, I prefer a bit more fat with my squeeze. Goat is very lean. ;)

But they have built in handle bars! 

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34 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

ETNZ took another big, agreessive 'rules-loophole' risk in AC34 that damn nearly beat Oracle (who had understood and played by the rules 'as-intended' i.e.: to prevent the costs associated with actual full-out foiling) and ETNZ deserves some credit for that 'risk' - and gain with 'aggressive' blow-by take on the 'manual input' intended rules in AC35. 

But NOTHING in my lifetime is likely to top DogZilla. Including for the incredibly bold engineering audacity to sail that monster with the BIGGEST WING EVER BUILT OF ANY KIND. 231 feet tall when it hit the Race 1 start line of AC33 in Valencia. Incredible!

Horrible cam work, horrible lo-res cam, but man, that was one of the most impressive moments of my life:

 

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

But they have built in handle bars! 

Ah yes. Redbands are redundant then? :D

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4 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Horrible cam work, horrible lo-res cam, but man, that was one of the most impressive moments of my life:

 

Thanks for that, Rennie, it absolutely is historic AC video. Am so glad to have shared it with you, we 5 aboard that boat were all agasp!

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

ETNZ took another big, agreessive 'rules-loophole' risk in AC34 that damn nearly beat Oracle (who had understood and played by the rules 'as-intended' i.e.: to prevent the costs associated with actual full-out foiling) and ETNZ deserves some credit for that 'risk' - and gain with 'aggressive' blow-by take on the 'manual input' intended rules in AC35. 

But NOTHING in my lifetime is likely to top DogZilla. Including for the incredibly bold engineering audacity to sail that monster with the BIGGEST WING EVER BUILT OF ANY KIND. 231 feet tall when it hit the Race 1 start line of AC33 in Valencia. Incredible!

 

 

 

it was impressive for sure but also the least interesting AC in modern history.  Miss matches are no matches at all

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Qman said:

it was impressive for sure but also the least interesting AC in modern history.  Miss matches are no matches at all

 

 

 

The boat was so Big that even when they were doing twenty knots, it looked like it was moving slowly.   

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On 19/07/2017 at 6:49 PM, hoom said:

Frankly a disappointing announcement :(

I thought we'd see Protocol by now (since its been said to exist already), not just an announcement that it'll be announced in Sept & probably include CiC/Nationality rules that we totally already knew.

It was a "just wait a bit for the announcement" announcement.

I've had enough of perpetually evolving protocols and rules.

I'd much rather they take a little time and present something solid with a final feel about it.

That's my hope anyway. 

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On 22/07/2017 at 8:57 AM, ~Stingray~ said:

ETNZ took another big, agreessive 'rules-loophole' risk in AC34 that damn nearly beat Oracle (who had understood and played by the rules 'as-intended' i.e.: to prevent the costs associated with actual full-out foiling) and ETNZ deserves some credit for that 'risk' - and gain with 'aggressive' blow-by take on the 'manual input' intended rules in AC35. 

Funny, for the longest time you swore black & blue that 'ole Galloping Gertie was intended as a full foiler from the start <_<

 

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11 hours ago, hoom said:

Funny, for the longest time you swore black & blue that 'ole Galloping Gertie was intended as a full foiler from the start <_<

 

By the time it launched, yes it was.

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Oh please.

By the time it launched they'd tried to gee it up into a foiler but it was obviously not up to the task because it was designed from the start to be a semi-foiler.

Man, it must have been so incredibly embarrassing to realise what a lemon they had on their hands :unsure:

 

And so very impressive that they were able to get their shit together just in the nick of time.

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Just as well that dog got impounded otherwise the result could have been even more embarrassing for OTUSA, than AC35. 

But in the end they did the job and schooled ETNZ.

As it turned out, the Kiwis were actually paying attention.

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I agree that the constructed in country clause should be far stronger than the bastardization of the rules for Bermuda. The intent of the Stevens and the others who gave the cup to the NYYC was to prove that the Americans could build better boats than the Brits. In in most cases the technology 'edge' turned out to be the deciding factor and when the cup has changed hands it has usually been because someone built a faster boat.

Basically, I think if ETNZ was really interested in true nationality rules and really wanted the teams to be 'national' (i.e., the 'friendly competition between nations') the very first thing they should go after would be the foreign sponsorship money. To me, the idea that foreign nationals would be paying for an AC defense or challenge is far worse than having hired foreign guns steering the boat or grinding.

If they were really serious about it they would set similar nationality rules on sponsors, owners, designers, and engineers, in addition to returning to proper CIC rules and their self-righteous personnel regulations. However, I suspect a change like that would cut their budget a little too thin for comfort.

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21 minutes ago, Teal67 said:

I agree that the constructed in country clause should be far stronger than the bastardization of the rules for Bermuda. The intent of the Stevens and the others who gave the cup to the NYYC was to prove that the Americans could build better boats than the Brits. In in most cases the technology 'edge' turned out to be the deciding factor and when the cup has changed hands it has usually been because someone built a faster boat.

Basically, I think if ETNZ was really interested in true nationality rules and really wanted the teams to be 'national' (i.e., the 'friendly competition between nations') the very first thing they should go after would be the foreign sponsorship money. To me, the idea that foreign nationals would be paying for an AC defense or challenge is far worse than having hired foreign guns steering the boat or grinding.

If they were really serious about it they would set similar nationality rules on sponsors, owners, designers, and engineers, in addition to returning to proper CIC rules and their self-righteous personnel regulations. However, I suspect a change like that would cut their budget a little too thin for comfort.

That would kill off New Zealand's aspirations in the AC, right there.

Our teeny tiny Islands in the South Pacific would have no show in footing it with the AC mega-budgets.

Even Straya struggles with the money, for fuck sake.

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7 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

That would kill off New Zealand's aspirations in the AC, right there.

Our teeny tiny Islands in the South Pacific would have no show in footing it with the AC mega-budgets.

Even Straya struggles with the money, for fuck sake.

The purists would say "Then don't play."
Thankfully these ideas are not part of the DoG, would need MC, and are certainly not discussed currently.

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2 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

The purists would say "Then don't play."
Thankfully these ideas are not part of the DoG, would need MC, and are certainly not discussed currently.

That and the fact we live in a global economy. As in, 'where the money is made' rather than, 'where it ends up'.

Even Thomas Lipton understood that much.

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

That would kill off New Zealand's aspirations in the AC, right there

It would kill off a lot of aspirations to be honest if we look at the last Cup.  Land Rover is owned by Tata (an Indian Company) so there goes Ben.  Gunvor is a Cyprus company with its HQ in Geneva so there goes Artemis Sweden.  ETNZ is obviously out.  That would leave only Oracle, Groupama and - somewhat ludicrously - Softbank Team Japan.

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

That would kill off New Zealand's aspirations in the AC, right there.

Our teeny tiny Islands in the South Pacific would have no show in footing it with the AC mega-budgets.

Even Straya struggles with the money, for fuck sake.

What's to stop Emirates New Zealand Limited channelling the Emirates sponsorship to ETNZ? They do it with Toyota

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19 minutes ago, Indio said:

What's to stop Emirates New Zealand Limited channelling the Emirates sponsorship to ETNZ? They do it with Toyota

Good point. Global economy and all.

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2 hours ago, Teal67 said:

I agree that the constructed in country clause should be far stronger than the bastardization of the rules for Bermuda. The intent of the Stevens and the others who gave the cup to the NYYC was to prove that the Americans could build better boats than the Brits. In in most cases the technology 'edge' turned out to be the deciding factor and when the cup has changed hands it has usually been because someone built a faster boat.

Basically, I think if ETNZ was really interested in true nationality rules and really wanted the teams to be 'national' (i.e., the 'friendly competition between nations') the very first thing they should go after would be the foreign sponsorship money. To me, the idea that foreign nationals would be paying for an AC defense or challenge is far worse than having hired foreign guns steering the boat or grinding.

If they were really serious about it they would set similar nationality rules on sponsors, owners, designers, and engineers, in addition to returning to proper CIC rules and their self-righteous personnel regulations. However, I suspect a change like that would cut their budget a little too thin for comfort.

Clearly you don't actually watch much sport, almost every single national team is sponsored by large corporations and in many cases the big name sponsor is not from the same country (what does that even mean for a multinational corporation anyway??).

Put it another way professional sport (and even a lot of amatuer sport) as we know it simply wouldn't exist without cross country sponsorship from large multinationals.

Alot of teams from poorer nations would even be able to make to the Olympics without multinational sponsorship, the same applies to most major sporting events.

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A really old-school Nationality Rule might require the funding to be from out of the pockets of longstanding YC members, Vanderbilt and Lipton style; plus 'constructed in country' measures in a meaningful form; including wings, sails, launch, maybe native-born designers, maybe even patents or trademarks or 'technology history' of some kind.

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2 hours ago, Boybland said:

Clearly you don't actually watch much sport, almost every single national team is sponsored by large corporations and in many cases the big name sponsor is not from the same country (what does that even mean for a multinational corporation anyway??).

Put it another way professional sport (and even a lot of amatuer sport) as we know it simply wouldn't exist without cross country sponsorship from large multinationals.

Alot of teams from poorer nations would even be able to make to the Olympics without multinational sponsorship, the same applies to most major sporting events.

I'm not saying that is not the way of professional sports ... I'm saying that the pretense of a nationality rule 'based' on the DoG is disingenuous and if you want to assert nationality beyond CIC you should go all the way. The AC was never about 'professional' sports or sponsorship by corporations until DC fucked it up because he couldn't find a billionaire to fund his quest after losing the cup. The AC is supposed to be a pissing contest between rich yacht club members, not professional sports teams. I'm sure NZ has a reasonable supply of billionaires to fund an AC campaign, but the clubs have lost control.

In any case, demanding that the sailors are nationals has always flown in the face of cup history (even when done by theNYYC).

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32 minutes ago, Teal67 said:

I'm not saying that is not the way of professional sports ... I'm saying that the pretense of a nationality rule 'based' on the DoG is disingenuous and if you want to assert nationality beyond CIC you should go all the way. The AC was never about 'professional' sports or sponsorship by corporations until DC fucked it up because he couldn't find a billionaire to fund his quest after losing the cup. The AC is supposed to be a pissing contest between rich yacht club members, not professional sports teams. I'm sure NZ has a reasonable supply of billionaires to fund an AC campaign, but the clubs have lost control.

In any case, demanding that the sailors are nationals has always flown in the face of cup history (even when done by theNYYC).

But no sport was, prior to about 1990 the majority of sports were amatuer and sponsorship was basically a rarity.

Now all sports are, they haven't lost their nationalism, the players just get paid now!

I just don't see why the America's Cup would be any different in it's evolution, clearly as far as sports are concerned the source of funding is not what makes a national team, but rather the nationality of the players, or in the case of a competition between objects, the place of manufacter.

This is basically true across every sector of society, a Japanese car from a company that got assistance from an American or Chinese backer is still concided a Japanese car by the general public.

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America's Cup: Back to the future for Team New Zealand?

America's Cup expert Peter Lester told Newstalk ZB it was important last week's announcement set a timeline.

 

"Last time [defender] Oracle took a year to come out with the protocol, which creates uncertainty among the challengers. New Zealand were badly affected by that.

"A lot of what I'm hearing in terms of the protocol could be similar, and I use that word carefully, to 2000 when nationality and country-of-origin for the build were corner stones.

"That probably doesn't mean the whole construction process. At that time the canoe body of the boat - or inside laminate - had to be completed in the country of origin and the fit-out could be done anywhere. I don't think it'd be every single component."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11895035&ref=NZH_fb

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2 hours ago, Barnyb said:

"That probably doesn't mean the whole construction process. At that time the canoe body of the boat - or inside laminate - had to be completed in the country of origin and the fit-out could be done anywhere. I don't think it'd be every single component."

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  ^

Nein Nein Nein! If anything, it should be the reverse: lamination is irrelevant. Mold fabrication, fit-out and initial sailing are what matters

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If you use that logic then coming to agreement before the match would of been even better. But sure, pats on the back for cleaning up the spilt milk.

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22 hours ago, sclarke said:

Yes.  Nice summary from someone who knows and follows all the moves.

Not like the radio nitwit know-nothings Duncan Garner and his mate Drew Pearson mentioned earlier here. Verbal spew.

Worth reminding all that the Protocol for AC36 already exists. Probably signed minutes after ETNZ's victory if precedent is any guide.  

Back on July 6 Grant Dalton revealed on Newstalk ZB's Mike Hosking Breakfast that plans for the 36th America's Cup would be rolled out soon. "The protocol that will govern the 36th America's Cup defence in New Zealand is written and it's signed. We want to revisit it a little with our challenger of record in Luna Rossa and just check in the light of the win that everything is as we'd like it to be," Dalton told Hosking.

For those who know Ernesto Bertelli's style it would have insanely negligent of Dalton to permit a joint announcement of the new challenger without a firm agreement.

 

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49 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

Yes.  Nice summary from someone who knows and follows all the moves.

Not like the radio nitwit know-nothings Duncan Garner and his mate Drew Pearson mentioned earlier here. Verbal spew.

Worth reminding all that the Protocol for AC36 already exists. Probably signed minutes after ETNZ's victory if precedent is any guide.  

Back on July 6 Grant Dalton revealed on Newstalk ZB's Mike Hosking Breakfast that plans for the 36th America's Cup would be rolled out soon. "The protocol that will govern the 36th America's Cup defence in New Zealand is written and it's signed. We want to revisit it a little with our challenger of record in Luna Rossa and just check in the light of the win that everything is as we'd like it to be," Dalton told Hosking.

For those who know Ernesto Patrizio Bertelli's style it would have been insanely negligent of Dalton to permit a joint announcement of the new challenger without a firm agreement.

 

Fixed

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Would love to see a AC36 Defender series in parallel to the Challenger series, imagine a Defender series with:

1) ETNZ Headed by Dalton with Burling and Ashby.

2) ORNZ Headed  by Coutts with Barker and Co.

3) Redbull NZ Youth Team members.

It would be a great series with scores to settle and developing talents, obviously also boosts the local industries by supporting 3 local teams.

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This may have been said somewhere else so apologies if this isn't the correct thread or a repeat, but I'd love to AC36 have like a 18-24 month challenger/defender series.  Might sound unrealistic, but couldn't you do a 4-6 month stint in the US, 4-6 in Europe, and then move to Auckland for the end of the challenger/defender series (double points and/or playoff) and AC final?

I know this may sound like a major expense but how much more $$ is it than the dumb ACWS that weren't even raced in the actual AC Class boats?  The development of the teams is the coolest part of the AC (the AC final is cool for the first few races but 95% of the time the final few a foregone conclusion) and this way you'd be able to see it occur with actual racing instead of random clips of someone's homemade video.  Maybe the first stop or 2 you see Gen1 boats and then the progression to Gen2 boats or something like that by the end.  

The AC is a development race as much as a boat race it would be awesome if they structured in a manner that allowed us to really see the development race occur...

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16 hours ago, fish7yu said:

Would love to see a AC36 Defender series in parallel to the Challenger series, imagine a Defender series with:

1) ETNZ Headed by Dalton with Burling and Ashby.

2) ORNZ Headed  by Coutts with Barker and Co.

3) Redbull NZ Youth Team members.

It would be a great series with scores to settle and developing talents, obviously also boosts the local industries by supporting 3 local teams.

Not a chance.

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On 7/19/2017 at 2:09 AM, SeaGul said:

Is this really smart for NZ as a country? They will force the AC industry away from NZ except their own boat and team. And will that give more teams - dont think so - I see US, France, UK and maybe Sweden that can do this.... 

Not to mention, turn some of NZL's 1st rate boat builders into expats as they are hired away by big money teams to go off and build their boats.  Taking the money from building the boat and earning potential out of NZL's economy.  Just like designers and sailors in the past, boat builders will become hired guns and travel wherever they need to to grab a paycheck.  These aren't the Olympics.  Some of the sailors may talk a big national pride game, but at the end of the day, money in the bank will always be more important than the flag on their sleeve.  

As far as nationality clauses go, they won't bring back huge numbers of challengers and grow the sport, they will only serve to choke it out.  NZL and AUS have a ton of sailors with world-class talent, but if there's no money in country for more than one team, all it does is put that talent on the bench.  The Corinthian aspect has been out of the America's Cup game for a long time now and it's now purely PROFESSIONAL sailing.  Pro athletes follow the money and get paid.  If a team in AUS or NZL won't pay a guy or can't put him on a boat, why shouldn't he be able to go to the USA, JPN, ITA, FRA, GBR or SWE for a job?  What about guys like Shannon Falcone?  He's British by birth, but has lived most of his life in Antigua.  He's sailed for ITA and the USA.  He was last signed with Luna Rossa to sail for ITA.  I guess he's out of the AC since it's highly unlikely that Antigua's going to field a team anytime soon.  At least he's got a ride on Comanche.  Nationality rules do little more than punish good sailors.  The nationality clause ideas always seem to come from Kiwis.  They've been whining about it ever since most of their best sailors followed the trail of cash Ernesto Bertarelli left from Auckland to Geneva. 

Arena sailing made for better tv.  It sucked because one sizable wind shift at the wrong moment and the race was all but over, but it kept the boats somewhat engaged with each other.  Back in the days of the 12s and the IACCs, the boats could have a mile of lateral separation, come back together for a close cross and go back to being a mile apart again.  A 2+-hour race could sometimes have 90 seconds of real action and 2+ hours of PJ Montgomery yelling about how exciting the racing was and how close the 4-knot shit boxes were in speed to one another.  I liked the premise under which AC35 was sailed and thought it wasn't perfect, I'm hopeful that it can be tweaked to be even better.  The AC50s were cool boats, but the race course needs to be wider and perhaps longer.  Although I must admit the 20 minute races did make it easier to watch a race while at work.

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^ "Nationality rules do little more than punish good sailors."

It may increase ratings, especially in the likely biggest AC36 market (NZ), but yes: Another side benefit to GD and any other ETNZ money worriers will be the benefit of being able to basically eliminate any AC syndicate salary competition options for the likes of Burling. Which may well be why Burling is entertaining other ideas like a VOR, perhaps as (weak, but attempted) salary negotiation leverage.

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20 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ "Nationality rules do little more than punish good sailors."

It may increase ratings, especially in the likely biggest AC36 market (NZ), but yes: Another side benefit to GD and any other ETNZ money worriers will be the benefit of being able to basically eliminate any AC syndicate salary competition options for the likes of Burling. Which may well be why Burling is entertaining other ideas like a VOR, perhaps as (weak, but attempted) salary negotiation leverage.

Haha the only reason Blair and Pete (possibly) are exploring other ideas like the Volvo, is because its an area of the sport they haven't dominated yet. They've been world champions, Olympic champions, Americas Cup champions, but haven't been offshore champions yet. When you're competitive sailors like Burling and Tuke are, and are still at the top of the mountain, you are constantly looking for new challenges. That is the only thing on their minds. Believe it or not, the Americas Cup isn't the only priority for those guys.

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:lol:

keep your tinfoil theories coming ........... isn't it just as well no one demands 'proof or shut up', for all your screeds of BS eh!?

28 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ "Nationality rules do little more than punish good sailors."

It may increase ratings, especially in the likely biggest AC36 market (NZ), but yes: Another side benefit to GD and any other ETNZ money worriers will be the benefit of being able to basically eliminate any AC syndicate salary competition options for the likes of Burling. Which may well be why Burling is entertaining other ideas like a VOR, perhaps as (weak, but attempted) salary negotiation leverage.

 

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38 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Haha the only reason Blair and Pete (possibly) are exploring other ideas like the Volvo, is because its an area of the sport they haven't dominated yet. They've been world champions, Olympic champions, Americas Cup champions, but haven't been offshore champions yet. When you're competitive sailors like Burling and Tuke are, and are still at the top of the mountain, you are constantly looking for new challenges. That is the only thing on their minds. Believe it or not, the Americas Cup isn't the only priority for those guys.

Yes, that could factor. 

But have you ever heard, even once out of the several occasions that PB was asked directly if he will re-sign with ETNZ, where he directly said 'Yes'?

Let's face it: In an open AC market he might command on the order of $5M with competition from other syndicates. Compared to what, an alternative VOR salary of maybe $250K? The guy could get $crewed by this decision - a crew Nationality angle that is nowhere to be found in the Deed no matter how hard GD tries to spin it that way. In their recent statement 'constructed in country' was the only quote they could make, because their implied follow-on about crew had nothing quotable to support that part.

The friendly competition is about only the boats, as the Deed goes on to make abundantly clear.

PB will be open to better offers for sure; possibly alongside some off-balance AC time for ETNZ. Maxi's, J's, some possible AC50 series to come, all have potential offers from $B's that could prove to be better 'challenges' he'd be happy to run along with, or run with instead of.

I also doubt that either of PB or BT are looking forward to 'new challenges they haven't dominated yet' to include sailing for peanuts in some slow monohull in a Prada Cup against just LR. Where's the challenge or interest in that?

'the Americas Cup isn't the only priority for those guys.' Agreed...

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18 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Yes, that could factor. 

But have you ever heard, even once out of the several occasions that PB was asked directly if he will re-sign with ETNZ, where he directly said 'Yes'?

Let's face it: In an open AC market he might command on the order of $5M with competition from other syndicates. Compared to what, an alternative VOR salary of maybe $250K? The guy could get $crewed by this decision - a crew Nationality angle that is nowhere to be found in the Deed no matter how hard GD tries to spin it that way. In their recent statement 'constructed in country' was the only quote they could make, because their implied follow-on about crew had nothing quotable to support that part.

The friendly competition is about only the boats, as the Deed goes on to make abundantly clear.

PB will be open to better offers for sure; possibly alongside some off-balance AC time for ETNZ. Maxi's, J's, some possible AC50 series to come, all have potential offers from $B's that could prove to be better 'challenges' he'd be happy to run along with, or run with instead of.

I also doubt that either of PB or BT are looking forward to 'new challenges they haven't dominated yet' to include sailing for peanuts in some slow monohull in a Prada Cup against just LR. Where's the challenge or interest in that?

Again, these guys are world champion sailors. The Americas Cup is one of the huge goals to achieve. They have achieved that. Move on to the next challenge. They are proud Kiwi's and GD knows that. They got the job done, now let them go and have their fun. Dalton knows they aren't going anywhere because they are still proud Kiwi's. When you're a competitor, you leave the politics to the politicians, and get on with the job at hand. Pete is at the Moth worlds now, on the back of next to no training time, simply because its a challenge for him. A chance to stay at the top. Yes, it costs money to do these things, but they will again, be representing the NZ Sailing team in Tokyo, because they want to sail for their country. Blair has already said that he signed on with Mapfre because its something he always wanted to do, but hasn't done yet. So go do it. It has nothing to do with leverage against GD. Its simply a goal to be ticked off while he still can. Once the AC comes around, they'll re negotiate I'm sure, but until then there are more on the water challenges these guys want to achieve. They don't care about the deed, or the protocol, or a Nationality clause. GD, Kevin Shoebridge and PB worry about that. All they want to do is compete, so Dalton has let them do that.

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^ If you honestly believe that the coming AC EmiratesPrada crew nationality restrictions will have no direct impact on PB's earning leverage potential against GD well then..

Sleep happily :) 

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Just now, ~Stingray~ said:

^ If you honestly believe that the coming AC EmiratesPrada nationality restrictions will have no impact on PB's earning leverage potential well then..

Sleep happily :) 

Burling would have had amazing offers from other teams for this last AC, but sailing for NZ was the priority. That isn't going to change. Yes, he'll be the most wanted man in the AC, but unless ETNZ closes its doors between now and 2021, Burling will stay right where he is. You're looking for something that just isn't there. Dalton, Shoebridge and Bertelli will handle the politics, so those guys don't need to. And yes, I will sleep very happily on that:)

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ If you honestly believe that the coming AC EmiratesPrada crew nationality restrictions will have no direct impact on PB's earning leverage potential against GD well then..

Sleep happily :) 

Jeeezus. All this sniping from the sidelines is getting fuckin boring, Stinger. When you can't find it, you just love to make this shit up. 

For the record, sometimes life keeps me awake at night - but not the shit you've been spouting lately.

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5 hours ago, Brutal said:

As far as nationality clauses go, they won't bring back huge numbers of challengers and grow the sport, they will only serve to choke it out.  NZL and AUS have a ton of sailors with world-class talent, but if there's no money in country for more than one team, all it does is put that talent on the bench. 

ETNZ only have one objective and that is to defend the AC successfully.  The NZ economy is not their priority.

GD has stated that it will not be a 100% nationality rule so that leaves some room for surplus NZ sailors to find work while it will be harder for countries like the US and Sweden to field a competitive team.  It may also encourage Australia to put in an entry.

The reduced options for the top sailors will help to keep the wage bill in check as well.

 

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slingsby doing a good job at the moth worlds.  proving he should've been at the helm in bermuda.  

 

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17 minutes ago, Qman said:

slingsby doing a good job at the moth worlds.  proving he should've been at the helm in bermuda.  

 

How do you figure that it "proves" anything.

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17 minutes ago, trt131 said:

How do you figure that it "proves" anything.

PB, NO, Goobs, and slingby are cut from the same mould.  new school high performance sailors.  all have excelled at olympics, class HP racing and americas cup.   Dean and JS are from a different mould, have not performed well at olympics or in class HP racing.  Look what came out on top.  its not rocket science.  

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