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    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Tom Scott

Shoal Draft Cruiseworthy boats that sail well for under $50,000.

96 posts in this topic

Living in SW Florida, draft is a huge factor that influences how viable a boat will be for cruising, sailing, and enjoying the areas where the shore and water meet. Draft can also be viewed as a safety factor as well, because if your boat draws too much, you may not be able to safely get through a pass (between Gulf to inland waters) when bad weather threatens, leaving you with some uncomfortable options as a result. But, mostly, deep draft limits your cruising destinations and routes. There are few shoal draft mono-hull cruising boats being built nowadays, and if there were it seems many would likely be ugly and expensive.<_<

So, this is my list of 30 shoal draft mono-hull  sailboats I'd consider buying with the only stipulations being that they sail well (subjective), be larger than 25 feet, draw less than 5 feet, and that examples be found in reasonable (not zombie) condition for under $50,000.  

I'm sure there are some boats I've left on my list, and I'd enjoy seeing what designs you think would fill the bill.:)

Again:  

  • Sails well (no sea pigs!)
  • Longer than 25 feet.
  • Draft less than 5 feet.
  • Price below $50,000.
  • No Multi-hulls.

30 Boats

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Pearson Vanguard

$12,000-$30,000

 

IMG_4915.JPG

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Nice compilation of oldies!

To me, shoal draft has a couple aspects.  There's overall ability to get into shallow water but then there's the ability to actually SAIL in shallow water.  Many centerboarders with a somewhat high aspect centerboard, actually require fairly deep water to sail in.  Keel centerboarders get to enhance windward performance by dropping their boards but then their effective 'sailing draft' is often much deeper than one would like or would have had in the keel version.  For you Floridians, that means you've actually potentially restricted your sailing area.  Sure, you can sail 'somewhat' with the board up but then you're compromised perhaps even worse than a true shoal keel boat and have the added complication of that moveable thingy taking up interior space and requiring additional maintenance and rattling around in its 'home' all the time.

For some odd reason, the Morgan 27 has always caught my eye even though in its parts, I don't find much to like about it, but in its overall collection of those same parts carries a 'je ne sais pas' (?) attractiveness... go figger, 

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Some of Lee Creekmore's designs would answer

 

Also Brennan's Easterly designs

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Nice compilation of oldies!

To me, shoal draft has a couple aspects.  There's overall ability to get into shallow water but then there's the ability to actually SAIL in shallow water.  Many centerboarders with a somewhat high aspect centerboard, actually require fairly deep water to sail in.  Keel centerboarders get to enhance windward performance by dropping their boards but then their effective 'sailing draft' is often much deeper than one would like or would have had in the keel version.  For you Floridians, that means you've actually potentially restricted your sailing area.  Sure, you can sail 'somewhat' with the board up but then you're compromised perhaps even worse than a true shoal keel boat and have the added complication of that moveable thingy taking up interior space and requiring additional maintenance and rattling around in its 'home' all the time.

For some odd reason, the Morgan 27 has always caught my eye even though in its parts, I don't find much to like about it, but in its overall collection of those same parts carries a 'je ne sais pas' (?) attractiveness... go figger, 

This is a good point, however, CB-up can open up marinas, creeks and anchorages, while the open water is OK for CB-down, or partly down.

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19 minutes ago, Max Rockatansky said:

Some of Lee Creekmore's designs would answer

 

Also Brennan's Easterly designs

 

 

 

Almost picked up a Creekmore 40 in MD. Draft was 2' with the board up.

Cool, simple and somebody else's baby now :(

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3 hours ago, Veeger said:

Nice compilation of oldies!

To me, shoal draft has a couple aspects.  There's overall ability to get into shallow water but then there's the ability to actually SAIL in shallow water.  Many centerboarders with a somewhat high aspect centerboard, actually require fairly deep water to sail in.  Keel centerboarders get to enhance windward performance by dropping their boards but then their effective 'sailing draft' is often much deeper than one would like or would have had in the keel version.  For you Floridians, that means you've actually potentially restricted your sailing area.  Sure, you can sail 'somewhat' with the board up but then you're compromised perhaps even worse than a true shoal keel boat and have the added complication of that moveable thingy taking up interior space and requiring additional maintenance and rattling around in its 'home' all the time.

For some odd reason, the Morgan 27 has always caught my eye even though in its parts, I don't find much to like about it, but in its overall collection of those same parts carries a 'je ne sais pas' (?) attractiveness... go figger, 

For the west coast of Florida: Tampa Bay: Sarasota Bay, Charlotte Harbor, and the entire Gulf coast off shore are essentially deep enough to sail with the board full down - there really is no draft restriction to sailing at all.  The draft becomes an issue when you need to head into a marina, anchorage, cove, small bayou, river, the ICW, or a subdivision. Most older Keel/centerboard boats can actually sail to windward with their board up - yes, plenty of leeway, but still making yardage upwind. 

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catalina 34...really.  as B.P. says nothing is a substitute for draft  but the C34 with a wing keel is not too shabby (ps i know of one for sale WELL under 50,000)

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Veeger 

i think your looking for 'je ne sais quoi' which refers to 'an intangible quality'

translated literally its 'I don't know what'

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Why restrict the list to leadmines?  (or "sinkers", as the more cyncical multihullers call them)

I'd have thought that a trimaran would be ideal for those waters

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13 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Why restrict the list to leadmines?  (or "sinkers", as the more cyncical multihullers call them)

I'd have thought that a trimaran would be ideal for those waters

Because Multihulls aren't good for going into crowded marinas. If the end-tie is unavailable, they can't fit in a standard slip. They are awkward "misfits". The multi-hulls that actually sail well are typically above the budget limit, and the smaller ones (..which the budget would limit me to) can not carry much in the way of water, fuel, or load.  Most multi-hulls are butt ugly.  (..although the F-27 looks good, and a couple of others aren't too bad. Dick Newick designed some nice ones.)   Finally, I don't enjoy sailing multi-hulls - and cruising in the cramped smaller ones really does not appeal to me.  So, no multi-hulls.  :)

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2 hours ago, fufkin said:

Veeger 

i think your looking for 'je ne sais quoi' which refers to 'an intangible quality'

translated literally its 'I don't know what'

Yup, thanks.  Brain farts are more common when the original hair color starts to disappear...

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2 hours ago, Veeger said:

Yup, thanks.  Brain farts are more common when the original hair color starts to disappear...

I guess this could include a lot of blondes.

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2 minutes ago, Tom Scott said:

Because Multihulls aren't good for going into crowded marinas. If the end-tie is unavailable, they can't fit in a standard slip. They are awkward "misfits". The multi-hulls that actually sail well are typically above the budget limit, and the smaller ones (..which the budget would limit me to) can not carry much in the way of water, fuel, or load.  Most multi-hulls are butt ugly.

Tom, I agree that most small multis are fugly -- tho you're right, Newick made some nice exceptions.  His "Val" design is very pretty.  As to the rest ... well you can't see it when you're sailing it.

However the folding tris do into slips.  That includes the popular F-27, and the Danish Dragonfly boats.  And who needs big tankage for coast-hopping or daysailing?

But it sounds like you are devoutly monohullogamous.  :D

So back to leadmines.  Looking at the list above, I instinctively scanned for a fractional rig.  Life is too short for big genoas.

So my eyes lit on the "Precision 27".  On the beamy side, but lots to like.   Much in common with some successful small Beneteaux.

Then I spotted the cockpit.  With a wheel.  On a 27-footer :o:(

The thought of a wheel on a 27-footer is enough to dent my will live

 

 

 

 

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I sometimes race on a Morgan 36 with lifting keel. It's a sweet sailing racer-cruiser and a Nelson-Marek design.

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Tom, I agree that most small multis are fugly -- tho you're right, Newick made some nice exceptions.  His "Val" design is very pretty.  As to the rest ... well you can't see it when you're sailing it.

However the folding tris do into slips.  That includes the popular F-27, and the Danish Dragonfly boats.  And who needs big tankage for coast-hopping or daysailing?

But it sounds like you are devoutly monohullogamous.  :D

So back to leadmines.  Looking at the list above, I instinctively scanned for a fractional rig.  Life is too short for big genoas.

So my eyes lit on the "Precision 27".  On the beamy side, but lots to like.   Much in common with some successful small Beneteaux.

Then I spotted the cockpit.  With a wheel.  On a 27-footer :o:(

The thought of a wheel on a 27-footer is enough to dent my will live

My next door neighbor has an F-27.  The folding mechanism is not practical for arriving at a marina and being told "..the end-tie is unavailable proceed to slip 4."  It takes tools, calm water, a couple of people, and about 15 minutes to fold the amas. Also, the boat is difficult under power. It needs quite a bit of board down to steer, and the amount of rudder angle available is limited by the traveler. At the slow speeds you would approach a dock at, the rudder is even less effective. The boat can not turn easily in our narrow canal - he has to motor to a wide area to do a 180 degree turn.  For single-handing, the wide beam means you have to not only leave the cockpit, but run across a trampoline to fend off the ama as you approach the dock - it is just awkward to handle in docking and marina situations under power, and it is one of the better ones.

I agree with the wheel comments - I would not want one on any boat I'd buy. There is a Morgan 41 near me that I have lusted after for decades, and it has a wheel installed. In my purchasing dreams, the wheel is removed and a tiller installed. :)

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39 minutes ago, Grey Dawn said:

I sometimes race on a Morgan 36 with lifting keel centerboard. It's a sweet sailing racer-cruiser and a Nelson-Marek design.

FIFY, :)

Looking at the design, I imagine that is a fine sailing boat!  I do not know how many were built ...and I have never seen one "in person".  I'd love to see any pictures you might have of it - or encourage you to take some the next time you sail aboard. The Nelson-Marek Morgans are boats I have no experience with, but they have always intrigued me. 

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I don't think I have any pictures of the one I raced on but found a similar boat for sale at http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/26105. The boat sails a lot better than its PHRF rating, I think.

main.jpg

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How about this Morgan cruiser, hook it up to the back of the car and cruise all over the place.

It lived for a while at Shoal Marine and then moved to Crystal Cay probably back in the late 90's.

 

Morgancat.jpg

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^  FAIL.  Reading comprehension must not be your forte FPJ.:D

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On 7/22/2017 at 8:48 PM, TwoLegged said:

Why restrict the list to leadmines?  (or "sinkers", as the more cyncical multihullers call them)

I'd have thought that a trimaran would be ideal for those waters

I think so too, but try try try and I just can't make myself like them as much. My brain was programmed for leaning at an early age.

FB- Doug

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Pearson 35s are not hard to find around LIS. Supposedly, they were designed to look like an Alberg. I suspect the accommodation  is much smaller that what we expect of a 35-er these days due to the short waterline. They are old boats now, but most Pearson models have good enough bones that they can be brought, if you have the money.

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1 hour ago, SemiSalt said:

Pearson 35s are not hard to find around LIS. Supposedly, they were designed to look like an Alberg. I suspect the accommodation  is much smaller that what we expect of a 35-er these days due to the short waterline. They are old boats now, but most Pearson models have good enough bones that they can be brought, if you have the money.

They're good boats, almost all Pearsons are. The one I lust after is the 39-2 keel-centerboard

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2460

Doesn't really do it justice, it's a very handsome boat..... as is the smaller sister, the 34-2 and 33-2 (almost the same boat but the 34 had a wing keel)

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1743

Everybody raves about the C&C keel-centerboarders, which certainly are good boats, but I feel the Pearsons get overlooked.

"Sails well" is a very loose term. The other day I was talking to a friend who is thinking about a someday cruiser / live-aboard, and suggested that he get a trawler (as I did myself) because boats with all the accomodation desired usually sail like a barn.

FB- Doug

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Thanks for the list Tom, must have taken some time to compile.

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C&C 34/36 Plus/XL with a wing keel (same hulls and interior, the deck layout and rig, and even the name seems to vary from boat to boat.)

PHRF anywhere from 85-100 depending on rig...and committee.  And unlike a lot (most?) of C&C's can actually sail to it's rating fairly easily and next to the F-27 the fastest sailing boat mentioned so far.

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3071

 

Nonsuch 324, roomiest 30' for a couple you'll ever be on and with the carbon wishbone rig not a sea slug once you get the hang of it.  Huge deep cockpit that can fit a crowd for a daysail, but can't really overnight two couples unless you're really good friends.

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5152

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1995/Hinterhoeller-Nonsuch-324-2986568/Haddam/CT/United-States#.WXu2wOmQyCg

 

Both are fairly rare and pushing the upper end of the budget.

 

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Hey Tom, I saw a Pearson 38, 1991, shoal draft for sale, in NY I think, at 57k.

So, it's a little past your budget, but it does sail well and has moderately excessive heel just like you prefer. I chartered one in the San Juans several years ago. Nice boat, dips the rail but rolls along well.

The engine location is good and bad. Good for weight and shaft alignment, but noisy as hell under the sink. I think the noise could be mitigated with your boat maintenance skills and lots of expensive sound proofing materials. Check yacht world.

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Sorry, Lasal!  You know the rules. :D

(...But, in a few years - after a few more high-priced components fail - that boat would be a fine choice,) 

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The asking price and sale price delta may keep the Pearson in contention!

These shoal draft boats with barn door rudders test your docking skills, but the gunkholing capabilities are worth it.

Check out the Pearson, they are nicely built boats and more impressive in person.

I kayaked the Everglades in January this year and have relatives in Naples. I love that coast, it's a great area to explore. A one-off sharpie yacht might be another good option if you can find one.

 

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12 minutes ago, lasal said:

...I kayaked the Everglades in January this year and have relatives in Naples. I love that coast, it's a great area to explore. A one-off sharpie yacht might be another good option if you can find one.

...Well, then you realize that "the shoaler the draft the better" around these parts.:)  

I really don't think a boat that draws 4'-9" would make me too happy - but I have seen the Pearson 36 (..that is very similar to that 38), and it has some admirable attributes. Pearson's are generally very decent boats. I think I'd prefer the older Pearson 39 that had a centerboard and could happily sail on her ear without gripping - and can readily be had for well under 50K.. :D

(..Can't say I'm a fan of using V-drives off the engine, though. <_<)

P-39

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It's a worthy puzzle! I'm looking forward to seeing your solution. My preference is to avoid centerboards, but your coastline has centerboard written all over it.

 

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On 7/23/2017 at 8:23 AM, Tom Scott said:

My next door neighbor has an F-27.  The folding mechanism is not practical for arriving at a marina and being told "..the end-tie is unavailable proceed to slip 4."  It takes tools, calm water, a couple of people, and about 15 minutes to fold the amas.

Heh. John's not doing it right, probably because he only folds his boat every three years when it's time to bring it to my house for bottom painting.

It requires one tool: a big wrench, and I've done it alone in a few minutes many times. I have never done it except in calm water and wouldn't want to try, but in calm water it's really no big deal at all.

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Heh. John's not doing it right, probably because he only folds his boat every three years when it's time to bring it to my house for bottom painting.

It requires one tool: a big wrench, and I've done it alone in a few minutes many times. I have never done it except in calm water and wouldn't want to try, but in calm water it's really no big deal at all.

Uh huh. I've never seen anybody do it to pull in to a slip for lunch - or even overnight.  I think it's like taking the seats out of my wife's old mini-van to haul cargo. Sure, you CAN do it. But you almost never do. I have enough to do bringing a boat into a marina single-handed. Folding up my amas while drifting around is not for me.:)

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2 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Heh. John's not doing it right, probably because he only folds his boat every three years when it's time to bring it to my house for bottom painting.

It requires one tool: a big wrench, and I've done it alone in a few minutes many times. I have never done it except in calm water and wouldn't want to try, but in calm water it's really no big deal at all.

Haven't you learned by now, not to argue?

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I think you should add the Atlantic City 24 to your list. I understand that it's technically too short, but it has the displacement and accommodation to qualify.

5936479_20161026130646423_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/Atlantic-City-Catboat-3007710/Milford/CT/United-States#.WYnGLlF96Uk

I have a friend who owns one, and he has cruised extensively with his family. He also races in our weekday evening series, and I can testify that this boat is as fast reaching and running as my Hunter 28. (Upwind: not so much, of course.)

 

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56 minutes ago, Weyalan said:

Adams 40

Might just find one under $US50k, usually go for more ..

would be my preference in Oz, but not a big fan of steel.

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1 minute ago, olaf hart said:

Might just find one under $US50k, usually go for more ..

would be my preference in Oz, but not a big fan of steel.

Not a big fan of steel either, but they are, I think, great boats (my father in law built one and he and his wife lived on it for about 20 years, the last few based in Oyster Cove, for what its worth)... they certainly sail well and you do see them, occasionally for around the $US 50k mark. the problem, for me, is that they are invariably home built, so they vary hugely in build quality - the good ones are very good, the bad ones... not so much

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6 minutes ago, Weyalan said:

Not a big fan of steel either, but they are, I think, great boats (my father in law built one and he and his wife lived on it for about 20 years, the last few based in Oyster Cove, for what its worth)... they certainly sail well and you do see them, occasionally for around the $US 50k mark. the problem, for me, is that they are invariably home built, so they vary hugely in build quality - the good ones are very good, the bad ones... not so much

Agreed, we have several friends who cruised them and we have an Adams 36 as well.

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5 hours ago, Tom Scott said:

Uh huh. I've never seen anybody do it to pull in to a slip for lunch - or even overnight.  I think it's like taking the seats out of my wife's old mini-van to haul cargo. Sure, you CAN do it. But you almost never do. I have enough to do bringing a boat into a marina single-handed. Folding up my amas while drifting around is not for me.:)

We sailed off the trailer enough that it was pretty routine. But it was also part of the reason for renting space behind a house in PGI.

Some people store them in marina slips like that. You have to bottom paint the sides of the amas. Looks lovely. We were considering buying one from Texas that had that treatment when we bought Surrender instead.

Semi is right that an AC 24 is really as much boat as any of the rest.

Doug wins a prize for posting that Pearson ad. Only because someone actually made some effort to wipe out the hatch gutter around the propane tank.

Might not meet your specs but at the low end of the price range I'm fond of the Endeavor 32. 4' fixed draft, nice double berth in the middle of the boat, and they're festooned with opening ports. Friends in New Port Richey had one and we had a blast with that thing.

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Was the Easterly a Brennan design? Must have been Donny's dad, right?

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3 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

We sailed off the trailer enough that it was pretty routine. But it was also part of the reason for renting space behind a house in PGI.

Some people store them in marina slips like that. You have to bottom paint the sides of the amas. Looks lovely. We were considering buying one from Texas that had that treatment when we bought Surrender instead.

Semi is right that an AC 24 is really as much boat as any of the rest.

Doug wins a prize for posting that Pearson ad. Only because someone actually made some effort to wipe out the hatch gutter around the propane tank.

Might not meet your specs but at the low end of the price range I'm fond of the Endeavor 32. 4' fixed draft, nice double berth in the middle of the boat, and they're festooned with opening ports. Friends in New Port Richey had one and we had a blast with that thing.

I think the Endeavor 32 meets all my specs.:) 

I think I rather prefer the original Irwin 32 (...that Endeavor bought the molds for to make their 32.)   I think the original Irwin K/CB arrangement is preferable (for me) than the fat shoal and wing keels Endeavor later added - and I sorta like the Irwin's original step down cabin trunk line. The Irwin also came with a tiller as standard equipment, whereas all the Endeavors I have seen have had a wheel. (..I like a tiller!)  Having said all that, the Endeavor boats were probably slightly better built than the Irwin's - but not so much better that I'd prefer one.  Still, good addition to the list!

Irwin 32

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Yes I can see how you'd like the same boat with a centerboard and tiller. I don't think the board is worth it for a cruiser. The Endeavor version goes upwind OK. If you have an upwind destination and a tight schedule, you're motoring. If you've had the foresight to avoid a tight schedule, a couple more tacks means that much more sailing = more fun. It still has a maximum upwind capability, just as the board version does. Striving to reach it is always fun. I've even managed to enjoy it in all three versions of MacGregor powersailers.

As for the tiller, I'd much rather sail with a tiller and maneuver around a dock with a tiller but wheels are easy and don't sweep the whole damn cockpit. They also don't get out of the way as easily once the anchor goes down. Is it more cruiseworthy with a wheel or a tiller? I'd say wheel but could really go either way.

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Yes I can see how you'd like the same boat with a centerboard and tiller. I don't think the board is worth it for a cruiser. The Endeavor version goes upwind OK. If you have an upwind destination and a tight schedule, you're motoring. If you've had the foresight to avoid a tight schedule, a couple more tacks means that much more sailing = more fun. It still has a maximum upwind capability, just as the board version does. Striving to reach it is always fun. I've even managed to enjoy it in all three versions of MacGregor powersailers.

As for the tiller, I'd much rather sail with a tiller and maneuver around a dock with a tiller but wheels are easy and don't sweep the whole damn cockpit. They also don't get out of the way as easily once the anchor goes down. Is it more cruiseworthy with a wheel or a tiller? I'd say wheel but could really go either way.

With one exception, every boat I have ever owned has had a centerboard. So, I can't completely follow the "worth it" for a cruiser comment. It implies that those of us with centerboards are paying some terribly heavy price that is nearly unbearable! :ph34r:  Sure, compared to a deep fin we absolutely loose some stiffness and windward prowess. But that really isn't a fair comparison to make because I can't have a deep fin keel and enjoy a boat in SW Florida. Shoal draft of some type is the only option for me.

So, since I must have shoal draft, which option gives the "best" shoal draft?  Well, in terms of absolute measure, the centerboard option typically does.  Sure, the shoal draft keel Endeavour sails "ok" going upwind, but when we arrive at our destination - I'll draw 3'-6" in an Irwin 32 - and he'll draw 4'-3".  (...that is not an insignificant difference in SW Florida.)

As for the sailing: On the way to our destination, the Irwin can outpoint the shoal keel sailer with the board down, and often enjoy an easier helm off the wind (..if it's blowing hard) by simply angling in a little board for balance. Yes, a centerboard typically has cables, sheaves, a pin, and winch that require periodic attention, but in the context of everything else a sailboat needs, it probably amounts to .02% more work. 

"Wheel vs tiller" is just another choice to be made. Yes, I prefer a tiller to a wheel for the feel it provides - and the simplicity of it. And if you think about it, a steering wheel can require nearly as much attention as a centerboard - there are sheaves, cables, a quadrant and pins involved in most steering mechanisms ..all of which must be inspected and maintained. (..A tiller might need varnish.)  If a centerboard isn't "worth it" for a cruiser, a wheel shouldn't be "worth it" for a cruiser either.  (..but of course, both are.)

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There's a bit of false equivalency in your description.

Wheel steering gear isn't submerged in water and doesn't require a haul out or diving to maintain.

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Pretty clearly, the marketplace prefers a shoal draft keel, probably a wing, over a centerboard. I've read a lot of comment from cruisers with centerboards in stub keels saying the boat goes upwind well enough with just the stub keel, and they don't bother putting down the CB. (Clearly not racers!)  If you are fine with that level of upwind performance, the wing keel is way good enough. The shoal draft bulb-wing keel on my Hunter 28 is 5 inches deeper than the CB up draft of the Tom's Morgan. That's not enough to get excited about except for  special circumstances. (There is a M 30 I've raced against a couple times, and he has cleaned my clock, but since he's beaten everyone else [first place finishes], I don't take it personally.)

 

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Tom can literally beach his boat, which is a pretty cool feature for a 30 footer and valuable for his sailing venue. The trade-off is that he sails upwind with 80 degrees of heel. Centerboard maintenance is a non-issue because he uses a lift, which is not the norm.

The Chesapeake Bay's average depth is 21 feet. A 6 foot tall person can wade in over 700,000 acres of the bay without getting their face wet. Cite:

http://baytrippers.thinkport.org/learn/quick.htm

It's merely a question of how extreme you want to take your shoal draft sailing. For me, a 4.5'  Scheel keel doesn't *quite* let me beach my boat but it doesn't make me walk on the bulkheads either so it's a trade-off I'll happily accept. 

At some point you say "fuck it" and buy a Hobie Cat or a canoe.

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Ajax, you are grossly over-estimating the negative effect of a centerboard in your otherwise miss-characterized description of the stability of my boat.

Just for reference, Irwin made a fixed keel version of their 32' that drew 5' - and Morgan made a fixed keel version of the 30 (..extended to 33') that drew 5' as well.  The difference in heel angle between fixed keel and centerboard when sailing upwind in 15 knots of wind was on the order of 3 degrees. But, since you have been relishing every opportunity to direct snarky comments toward me and my boat lately, it is probably pointless to discuss it further with you...

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Tom, I read Ajax's comment as just another bit of affectionate teasing, using hyperbole about your heel angles in a way which is now a CA tradition.

Maybe some of us have overdone it a bit, but I know I am far from alone in loving your boat and sharing vicariously the huge pleasure you so visibly get out of sailing her and keeping her shipshape and loved.

Whimsy would be up on the podium if I made a list of my favourite CA boats.  Her 310 degrees of heel :D is part of the magic which puts her there :)

 

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4 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Tom, I read Ajax's comment as just another bit of affectionate teasing, using hyperbole about your heel angles in a way which is now a CA tradition.

Maybe some of us have overdone it a bit, but I know I am far from alone in loving your boat and sharing vicariously the huge pleasure you so visibly get out of sailing her and keeping her shipshape and loved.

Whimsy would be up on the podium if I made a list of my favourite CA boats.  Her 310 degrees of heel :D is part of the magic which puts her there :)

 

Perhaps TwoLegged - but I don't think so. Some recent examples:

snarky

 

...there are others besides these.  I obviously have annoyed him somewhere along the way, so the little digs are now commonplace. 

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Oh dear.  But if Ajax has lost the faith, just use the ignore button.  Statistically, there was always a chance of finding somebody somewhere who doesn't want to share the pleasure.

I like both of you and both boats, but nobody gets along with everybody

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Oh dear.  But if Ajax has lost the faith, just use the ignore button.  Statistically, there was always a chance of finding somebody somewhere who doesn't want to share the pleasure.

I like both of you and both boats, but nobody gets along with everybody

No biggie - I still like reading what Ajax has to say on other topics.:)

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I've never seen anyone get so offended by compliments. If you re-read, you'll see that I listed several virtues about your boat. Yes, it was mostly affectionate teasing and hyperbole but hey, since you've decided to be offended, I'll give you something genuine to be offended about-

Tom, your boat is great, you have a proven race record and you seem to be a competent and conscious seaman. You are very knowledgeable on a variety of topics. Like everyone else here, I appreciate the fact that you sail so often and that you love your boat like a family member. I too, marvel at the high level of maintenance and care that goes into your boat. 

My main gripe with you is that you absolutely do not tolerate differing opinions or constructive criticism. From anyone. About anything. Ever.  When confronted with a difference of opinion or new information, you'll twist yourself into knots in an attempt to justify your opinion as fact. When pressed, you become peevish and thin-skinned as you did when you re-posted my two "snarky" posts. You are absolutely iron-clad in your certainty about many, many things and are not inclined to entertain new methods, ideas or information.

If you want to live in threads that serve as echo chambers so that you can feel comfortable in the knowledge that everything you believe is cold, hard fact and that realisty is exactly as you believe it to be, that's cool. Now that I know this, I apologize for sticking my oar in and I'll stay out of your discussions.

I've solo'd my boat 420 miles around the Delmarva peninsula (trivial, I know, but it did include an offshore leg) and I've got a few 1st place trophies on my wall too. The difference between us is that I still don't know shit and I *know* that I still don't know shit. I don't get peeved when someone offers me advice on how to sail my boat (the audacity!) or tells me something new about Pearsons, Bill Shaw, or Tartans or sailing techniques that I haven't tried. I discovered that I was sailing my P-30 upwind less efficiently for 3 years until Innocent Bystander gave me a good tip.

To sum up, I'll just say that you could be a little more open minded and not so uptight when presented with an opinion or information that doesn't perfectly align with your world view. Aside from that, I still think you're a fine person and I'm glad you're here. I was born and raised where you are living but if I was coming to SW Florida to sail, you'd be the guy I'd turn to for information and assistance.

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Ajax,

   Your assessment above basically applies to the actively posting cruising forum members sadly.  Lots of good information and people in CA,   but still essentially a circle jerk.  

 

The original question is on is still a good one.  I personally think it's a little more interesting to peg your max at $10-$15k.  It's amazing what can be had for that price.  

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

My main gripe with you is that you absolutely do not tolerate differing opinions or constructive criticism. From anyone. About anything. Ever.  When confronted with a difference of opinion or new information, you'll twist yourself into knots in an attempt to justify your opinion as fact. When pressed, you become peevish and thin-skinned as you did when you re-posted my two "snarky" posts. You are absolutely iron-clad in your certainty about many, many things and are not inclined to entertain new methods, ideas or information.

If you want to live in threads that serve as echo chambers so that you can feel comfortable in the knowledge that everything you believe is cold, hard fact and that realisty is exactly as you believe it to be, that's cool.

 

You noticed too? I made some comments about the Atomic 4 vs diesel and he reacted very poorly, even though he repeated my criticism of the Atomic 4 almost word for word in talking about motoring in narrow channels on windy days, a few times. He totally ignores my posts, and has for a few years.... which is fine.

All of us want validation. Not all of us come here to learn. I feel that I have learned a lot from Sailing Anarchy and if I come off sounding a bit pedantic some times, it's because I am trying to give something back. Tom has lot to offer but isn't interested in taking anything other than validation. Might be a good thing, if he takes less doesn't that leave more for others?

FB- Doug

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On 8/8/2017 at 5:49 AM, Tom Scott said:

Uh huh. I've never seen anybody do it to pull in to a slip for lunch - or even overnight.  I think it's like taking the seats out of my wife's old mini-van to haul cargo. Sure, you CAN do it. But you almost never do. I have enough to do bringing a boat into a marina single-handed. Folding up my amas while drifting around is not for me.:)

In Ft Walton Beach: Randy Smyth has an F-25c, and his girl friend Linda has an F-27 further down the canal. Both keep their boats on lifts in front of their respective houses. Both fold the boats every time the come in, and unfold every time they go out. Folding and unfolding occurs as the boats motor in or back out of the canal, and literally takes a minute each side, or less. I've done it with them, and its really less bother than running genoa sheets.

Having a huge wide platform when sailing makes it easy to take anyone -- grandkids, dogs, complete novices -- out sailing and everyone has a great time.

Doing a chute set, gybe, or drop on an F-boat is really amazingly convenient, easy, and safe. So much better than on a mono its not even funny -- no wonder mono sailors rarely sail or use their chutes.

Being able to trivially beach the boat on all those snowy white sand bars and beaches is really a wonderful thing in so many ways. Being able to anchor in inches of water to ride out a squall is very safe and secure.

Randy has a dagger rudder on his F-25c, and of course on Scizzor, and that allows easy and effective sailing in very shallow water.

That said, I own an Olson 40, so I understand your attraction to monohulls.

 

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Tom, I also have zero problem with centerboards. I think you have found a ton of really good boats, any one of which could fit your needs very well. And you have proven to us all that you know how to care for and enjoy older fiberglass boats.

I would just look for the best possible condition boat out of the models you have identified.

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On 8/9/2017 at 9:27 AM, Ajax said:

Tom can literally beach his boat, which is a pretty cool feature for a 30 footer and valuable for his sailing venue. The trade-off is that he sails upwind with 80 degrees of heel. Centerboard maintenance is a non-issue because he uses a lift, which is not the norm.

I think the lift comment sums up my issue with a centerboard.

Tom is right that the centerboarder will draw less and those 9 inches mean thousands of square miles of cool places you can go, or not. It's also true that the board can be used for helm balance, and maintaining the mechanical parts isn't that big of a deal. I think lots of people are afraid of centerboards because they hear about the ones that are neglected for a decade or more and then (surprise) fail.

I really don't care about the difference in upwind performance of a board vs shoal keel boat for cruising purposes. I either have time to sail there or I don't and I doubt the difference in upwind performance will tilt things one way or the other.

The thing is, scrubbing the bottom of a boat is one of my least favorite activities. I like scrubbing a centerboard even less and getting the inside of a trunk least of all.

The other thing is, I like to explore so I hit stuff. If I hit it with board down, there's  slack in a cable that should have none. If I hit it board up, I've just stuffed something up into the trunk.

Also, the 80 degrees of heel thing was uncalled for. I've never seen Whimsy exceed 78 degrees. :P

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I love my centerboard. A well designed centerboard isn't that much extra maintenance, even if not dry sailed. Ted Hood designed his boards so they didn't fit perfectly tight in the trunk, so that you could get a bit of fouling and not jam it. Take the covers off and lube things up once a year and change your pennant every couple of years and you'll be fine. The other nice thing about Ted's boats is the high ballast to displacement ratios - like 50%, so they are not so tender. 

 

 

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This is my second - not a dinghy - centerboard boat. I swore after the last one, I'd never buy another one.

But I did buy one, and now know that the design and build of a centerboard are what make them a big problem, or no problem. I enjoy the centerboard I have now and see it as one more fun, adjustable part, of my sailing. 

But still, I'd recommend no centerboard, if you always have deep enough water, where ever you want to sail or anchor. 

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I never understood why some kind of a plastic scrubbing pad couldn't be attached inside the slot to wipe the centerboard clean after each raising and lowering operation.

Basically, a long, huge "greenie" scrubbing pad, maybe make it a little softer.

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26 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I never understood why some kind of a plastic scrubbing pad couldn't be attached inside the slot to wipe the centerboard clean after each raising and lowering operation.

Basically, a long, huge "greenie" scrubbing pad, maybe make it a little softer.

I've had 4 boats with retractable boards in my adult life.  One centerboard, 3 daggerboard boats.  Access to scrub as you suggest is/was nonexistent.  However, I had NO issues with growth inside any of the trunks--whether in New England, SoCal or the PNW.

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

I never understood why some kind of a plastic scrubbing pad couldn't be attached inside the slot to wipe the centerboard clean after each raising and lowering operation.

Basically, a long, huge "greenie" scrubbing pad, maybe make it a little softer.

A CB can be a good thing, but a CB trunk is always a bad thing. It to adds drag, steals buoyancy and weakens the structure, and it's always  right where you would like to put some ballast. Hence they are made as small as possible.

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It seems that Tom has taken his ball and gone home.

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11 hours ago, Wavridnstd said:

What happened to your very own morgan 30 topic?

 

11 hours ago, Ishmael said:

It seems that Tom has taken his ball and gone home.

the entire thread has gone :(

Can a poster do that -- delete a thread they started, along with everyone else's posts in that thread?

Seems to me like a really bad idea :(

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Childish, and unfortunate.

Tom has a lot to offer and I did enjoy conversing with him. He called me out, so I was honest with him. I'm sorry that my opinion bothered him so intensely that he felt compelled to leave. I'm sure Cruisers Forum has a spot for him.

Hey, I'm not the only person who felt this way.

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Tom is a great guy and I'm happy to know him.

There's a bit of a history here. Years ago, when Tom owned his Precision 18, there was some kind of dust-up over on the Trailer Sailor forum and Tom lived in exile for a while with the reprobates on the catboat forum. It's a way he deals with things sometimes.

I hope he comes back. But I'll see him on the harbor either way.

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19 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Tom is a great guy and I'm happy to know him.

There's a bit of a history here. Years ago, when Tom owned his Precision 18, there was some kind of dust-up over on the Trailer Sailor forum and Tom lived in exile for a while with the reprobates on the catboat forum. It's a way he deals with things sometimes.

I hope he comes back. But I'll see him on the harbor either way.

I'm not going to apologize or kiss his ass and beg him to come back. I feel that I stated my opinion in a respectful and constructive manner.  I was blunt but it was not my intention to drive him out and I don't bear him any ill will.  I was trying to point out that all of us still have something to learn and that he could be a little more open minded.

Please pass on to him that no one wanted him to leave, he's not Brent Swain, and that we can still have constructive discussions, and that he does bring value to the discussions.

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

I hope he comes back. But I'll see him on the harbor either way.

I also hope he comes back to SA.  Tom Scott contributed a lot of wonderful stuff here, and I am pretty sure he got a lot out of it too. I miss him already.

Uncooperative Tom, if you see him on the water, please say hi from me, and pass on my best wishes .... plus of course the obligatory request not to let his heel angle get too far beyond 80 degrees :D

 

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

I'm not going to apologize or kiss his ass and beg him to come back. I feel that I stated my opinion in a respectful and constructive manner.  I was blunt but it was not my intention to drive him out and I don't bear him any ill will.  I was trying to point out that all of us still have something to learn and that he could be a little more open minded.

Please pass on to him that no one wanted him to leave, he's not Brent Swain, and that we can still have constructive discussions, and that he does bring value to the discussions.

Shee-it, Tom on his worst day could sail rings around Brent on his best. And dealing with people who disagree with you by ignoring them is not great but it's a heck of a lot better than acting like Brent.

-DSK

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Tom, is there a reason why you didn't include Island Packet in your list?  I see several mid to late 80's under $50K.  I have not sailed on one, so does it fall under your "sea pig" exclusion?

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Geez, I leave for a couple months and come back to discover I've forgotten my password and the only thread I read on here is gone. What a hit to current and prospective Morgan 30 owners. Often, it's member groups and helpful sites that keep an old design alive and cared for. What a shame. For the record, zero issues with my M30's centerboard this summer, which I'd say was neglected for at least 10 years prior to my ownership.

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Welcome back, CD. Do you have Tom's email address? I'm sure he would not mind my sharing it with you if you do not.

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5 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Welcome back, CD. Do you have Tom's email address? I'm sure he would not mind my sharing it with you if you do not.

Thanks. I reached out to Tom yesterday via direct message here and a comment on YouTube. With the storm, I won't hear from him for a bit via those avenues, I'm sure. I'd love to have his email. He's been a great source of M30 info, and I'd like to keep him apprised of what's happening with mine. Good luck to you, Tom, and others in the path of this storm. This is terrible.

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The more experience I get, the more I want the right boat and keel for the local soundings.

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On 9/11/2017 at 8:56 PM, Jammer Six said:

I don't change boats when I show up in a new anchorage.

OK, just don't run aground in such a way that you block the channel.

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40 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:
On 9/11/2017 at 8:56 PM, Jammer Six said:

I don't change boats when I show up in a new anchorage.

OK, just don't run aground in such a way that you block the channel.

That might be how he got his name

FB- Doug

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10 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:
51 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:
On 9/11/2017 at 5:56 PM, Jammer Six said:

I don't change boats when I show up in a new anchorage.

OK, just don't run aground in such a way that you block the channel.

That might be how he got his name

I'm thinking it's more his legendary toilet blockages.

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A BBQ fork chucked in a drill will clean that out in no time. 

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10 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I'm thinking it's more his legendary toilet blockages.

I doubt his blockage ever made it to the toilet.

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The Lippencott 30 may fit your requirements as well.  I owned one when living in North Carolina and really enjoyed it.  I can't tell you how it compares to other boats as it is the only one I have ever owned or spent much time on, but it worked well for me.  The one downside I recall was the boom was so low that you could not sail with any protection from the sun.

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1269

 

 

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