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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
6924

US Watercraft receivership ? (Alerion etc)

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Wait a minute......... if sailing were immensely more popular the marinas would be full and with waiting lists for slips at greater $/ft, the yacht club dues and initiation fees would likely be higher, the cost for parts and sails and shipwrights would be more and the purchase point for a quality boat would likewise be much greater.

The only thing keeping all of those costs down is that demand for all of those aspects of sailing have not gone up.

Yes, there is the counter point that perhaps with greater demand there would be greater availability of products and services and that might help keep prices down but I'd rather have the marine industry competing for my business than me competing with other yachties to obtain what I want.

Just think about how much higher the cost would be if you had to compete for everything. Then go ahead and bitch but realize that.....................

 

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5 minutes ago, Parma said:

Wait a minute......... if sailing were immensely more popular the marinas would be full and with waiting lists for slips at greater $/ft, the yacht club dues and initiation fees would likely be higher, the cost for parts and sails and shipwrights would be more and the purchase point for a quality boat would likewise be much greater.

The only thing keeping all of those costs down is that demand for all of those aspects of sailing have not gone up.

Yes, there is the counter point that perhaps with greater demand there would be greater availability of products and services and that might help keep prices down but I'd rather have the marine industry competing for my business than me competing with other yachties to obtain what I want.

Just think about how much higher the cost would be if you had to compete for everything. Then go ahead and bitch but realize that.....................

 

if sailing were immensely more popular the marinas would be full and with waiting lists for slips at greater $/ft,

They are full some places, but in many other places they are barely treading water and ripe for some kind of condo conversion, which will leave no place to keep your boat for any amount of money.

the yacht club dues and initiation fees would likely be higher,

They might be, but OTOH many clubs are on a glidepath to demographic extinction and what was water access will be sold for other purposes, leaving you with the problem referenced above.

the cost for parts and sails and shipwrights would be more

No No and NO!!! Ever bought a radiator for a Toyota? $60. BMW $300 and up. Ferrari :o Being RARE is what makes parts and labor expensive. A big boating center supports a lot of trades and competition between them. If there are only 10 sailboats in a 100 mile radius, the number of riggers and sailmakers in your town is going to be ... NONE. You'll be importing labor at big $$$$$.

purchase point for a quality boat would likewise be much greater

Not really. The more boats slide from sort-of mass produced to custom one-off luxury goods, the more EXPENSIVE they get. Ever wonder why airplanes went from the price of a real expensive car to the price of a decent suburban house? Building them by thousands was a lot cheaper than building them by the handful today. As for used boats, sure there are values around, but the people willing to spend $5-10K a year maintaining a boat worth $30K are not numerous, so all the "big and cheap good deals" are likely accumulating deferred maintenance at a rapid pace right now. Kind of like the big twin V-12 motor yacht that burns close to 100 gallons an hour at the end of your pier, it hasn't moved in years and is more likely to sink at the dock than get an overhaul :rolleyes: Note that a boat (or anything) costs what you spend to buy it plus what it costs to run minus the selling price. In the boom years my family was upgrading frequently and we sold boats *fast* and at a *profit* :D No one is doing either one of those now.

 

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my goodness, you certainly are a negative nellie

 

stay on the sunnyside,

always on the sunnyside,

stay on the sunnyside of life,

you'll feel no pain,

as we drive you insane,

if you stay on the sunnyside of life.

 

 

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Sorry if real life is "negative" and you REALLY need to be careful for what you wish for.

I have gone from paying $30/hr to over $100/hr for airplane maintenance, so falling popularity and less customers sure as hell did not make anything cheaper except for initial purchase price. Do not wish to see that repeated.

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2 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Makes sense to me. It's only a bad idea to do what you did if you then sell the boat.

While working as a broker I always hated having to explain the world to people who had bought and restored a boat, then decided to sell it.

 

Nope. The fix and keep was a simultaneous decision.  You are right. Folks who restore and want all of their money and labor back are dreamers. 

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Hey, I applaud your decision to fix and use the boat instead of sending it to the landfill and buying a new one. 

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22 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Nope. The fix and keep was a simultaneous decision.  You are right. Folks who restore and want all of their money and labor back are dreamers. 

Plus the "book value" of the boat assumes it is in good shape. A 50 year old boat is *assumed to have a new engine and sails by now*!!!!!!!!

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On 7/25/2017 at 1:22 PM, Hugh Jorgan said:

Was US watercraft building the new J/121?  If so I wonder what will happen with that since it appears as though the first boat(s?) is in the middle of production.

No they were not. CCFCI builds all the newer J-boats in the US. J-70, J-88, J-95, J-111, and J-121.

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Quote

Take a 34-45 foot old sailboat that sails a lot. The engine is near worn out. The sails are near worn out. The interior and canvas are near worn out. That adds up to over $30,000 of repair/improves or perhaps a lot more. Cheaper to just buy another one.

So you have seen my sailboat.  

Nah. 27 years old and needs a few things but good sails, instruments and gear. Hatches could use refurb though. 

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5 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Sorry if real life is "negative" and you REALLY need to be careful for what you wish for.

I have gone from paying $30/hr to over $100/hr for airplane maintenance, so falling popularity and less customers sure as hell did not make anything cheaper except for initial purchase price. Do not wish to see that repeated.

Labor rate at my marina for skilled work (glass, electrical, etc) is now $110/hr

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On 7/30/2017 at 6:47 AM, Uncooperative Tom said:

People don't do this because you just spent $12k upgrading a $12k boat, turning it into a $13,200 boat if you had to sell it.

It makes no sense. This is coming from someone who has spent about as much on a $2k boat so I make even less sense, just saying.

The Zombie Fleet grows every year because the economics of putting money into an old boat are almost as bad as putting money into a boat building business.

Still cheaper then a new one. 

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If you're an old fart like me you buy a new or newer boat, calculating the value of your spare time and the amount of time you have left to enjoy it, knowing it's not going to deliver any monetary return and you consider it well spent. If you're a young guy or gal, buy a shitty $1,000-2,000 Craigslist boat, take lots of "Before" pix, learn basic fiberglass repair, cosmetics, rig work, interior accommodations upgrades and improvements, leave the engine to last if it has one. When your initial investment is small, you can afford to be more daring about learning to do your own work. Spend a lot of your spare time for a year or two enjoying every accomplishment milestone and whip out those "Before" shots when you want to bask in the glow. It still doesn't make financial sense but it's the only way you can own a boat and not lose a pile. 

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On 7/27/2017 at 8:47 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

From what I can see, you can hardly give a sailboat away and $100,000 + center consoles are flying off the shelves and you can't even sit inside the thing when it rains!

They sold like one North Rip....

 

New companies do NOT do well in that market unless they do something really hot. NR almost had the fit and finish of Jupiter but was being pushed towards the actual fishing market yet couldn't compete with Yellowfin/Invincible/Contender/Conch/etc fuel burn/speed numbers just weren't there.

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On 28.7.2017 at 4:19 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

That was for the multi-million dollar J/109 keel repair warranties, right?

Like Dude - we were promised a article on the FP a couple of weeks ago, 

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On 7/30/2017 at 5:35 PM, Gouvernail said:

FYI  The following is  a bit of a rant. 

(OK It is a rant) 

It never hurts to stand up and read my posts out loud as though you were speaking in front of a giant hall filled with sailors: 

Have fun with it>>>

In the sixties and seventies there was a fantasy of building the affordable sailboat for everyone.

Many  companies tried. Only Sunfish and Laser really survived and each of those had had some brushes with death.

In 1977 over 200,000 new sailboats were sold in the USA. The number has dropped EVERY year except in 2001. That year, despite 9-11, the total only dropped by 53. 

In 2002, largely based on a Laser sales boomlet, the number actually went up. That was the ONLY year it rose and whatever caused it, Laser sales plummeted back to their old numbers the very next year and the sailboat sales  downfall continued as though it had never been interrupted. 

i am a firm believer a number of factors are contributing to the demise of sailboat production as a business and to the game of sailing:

1. There never has been and never will be big bucks to be made creating introductory affordable durable  toys.

2. All other sailboat manufacturers rely on customers who entered the sport on affordable toys. 

3. Sailors are mostly old people who either do not care at all about having the game continue after they are gone or would rather bitch than actually do something.

4. Access to many sailing venues is limited and controlled by rich old men who do not have any desire to share 

5. Aside from a dozen people promoting the AERO, no one in North America is making a concerted effort to get new folks out on their ready to  purchase freshly manufactured singlehanded toys. 

And ... the AERO is not really an appropriate total greenhorn entry toy. 

6. Look at the threads about the demise of the sport. I am pretty certain I am the only one of the 60,000 members of this site who consistently pitches any solutions. Everybody here and in the sailing world in general is much more eager to bitch, whine, and pronounce their sport dead than invest in making it boom again in ten years. 

Why do you people write, "Sailing isn't fun for them."??? 

Why the hell do you think that? Don't you love sailing? Don't your friends live sailing? WTF makes you think anybody could resist the wonderful lure of sailing?? 

**++++++******+++++******

Here once again is a fundamental description of a real solution. I will write it as briefly  as I can more time for those who might wake up.  ++++

We need to create a new boat that does what Lasers do but costs significantly less. The boat really needs to feel and sail much as a Laser does but it must be modernized for ease of manufacture, durability, and creature comfort. 

The boat must be heavily promoted in virtually every available boating media and the sales and promotion team must accomplish the things necessary to politically take over as THE SINGLEHANDED RACER'S  SAILING TOY.

(Think golf balls with dimples or 16 pound bowling balls. One sport. One toy for playing the sport) 

Done right, the first couple years there will be 3,000 strategically placed new boats. Soon thereafter, 10,000 to 20,000 of these new boats will sell annually in North America.

As it succeeds here it will easily take over the market in the rest of the world.

In ten to fifteen years,  the sheer numbers of people who enjoy sailing will cause need for larger racing and cruising sailboats.... (kind of like the boom in 22 to 30 foot sailboats that happened in the eighties. )

my guesstimate is:

It will take an initial Investment  of about $20,000,000 to get the new boat into production and sufficiently seeded around North America. 

Until somebody does that?? The game will continue to shrink. 

We need a billionaire who loves sailing and racing, has enjoyed racing with the very cream of the Laser sailor crop, and would like to be THE GUY who didn't just save the game , he turned it into the fabulous game we couid only have because he planted the seeds for the game and held on long enough to develop the root system. 

..... 

it can happen

it should happen

if all you want to do is try to stop it from happening

please STFU

 

I WONT BE LISTENING TO YOU. 

It exists. It's now called a Kite Surfer...

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Just now, Raz'r said:

It exists. It's now called a Kite Surfer...

Don't agree . The sit down displacement boat is as different from the kiteboarding as bicycling is from skateboarding 

 

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Don't agree . The sit down displacement boat is as different from the kiteboarding as bicycling is from skateboarding 

 

Well, it's where the growth is. Lots and lots of it. Why bother with a laser when you can sail a kite for 1/2 the price and 1/4 the hassle? Fits in the trunk of any shit car. No storage cost, etc 

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On 7/30/2017 at 8:35 PM, Gouvernail said:

FYI  The following is  a bit of a rant. 

(OK It is a rant) 

It never hurts to stand up and read my posts out loud as though you were speaking in front of a giant hall filled with sailors: 

Have fun with it>>>

In the sixties and seventies there was a fantasy of building the affordable sailboat for everyone.

Many  companies tried. Only Sunfish and Laser really survived and each of those had had some brushes with death.

In 1977 over 200,000 new sailboats were sold in the USA. The number has dropped EVERY year except in 2001. That year, despite 9-11, the total only dropped by 53. 

In 2002, largely based on a Laser sales boomlet, the number actually went up. That was the ONLY year it rose and whatever caused it, Laser sales plummeted back to their old numbers the very next year and the sailboat sales  downfall continued as though it had never been interrupted. 

i am a firm believer a number of factors are contributing to the demise of sailboat production as a business and to the game of sailing:

1. There never has been and never will be big bucks to be made creating introductory affordable durable  toys.

2. All other sailboat manufacturers rely on customers who entered the sport on affordable toys. 

3. Sailors are mostly old people who either do not care at all about having the game continue after they are gone or would rather bitch than actually do something.

4. Access to many sailing venues is limited and controlled by rich old men who do not have any desire to share 

5. Aside from a dozen people promoting the AERO, no one in North America is making a concerted effort to get new folks out on their ready to  purchase freshly manufactured singlehanded toys. 

And ... the AERO is not really an appropriate total greenhorn entry toy. 

6. Look at the threads about the demise of the sport. I am pretty certain I am the only one of the 60,000 members of this site who consistently pitches any solutions. Everybody here and in the sailing world in general is much more eager to bitch, whine, and pronounce their sport dead than invest in making it boom again in ten years. 

Why do you people write, "Sailing isn't fun for them."??? 

Why the hell do you think that? Don't you love sailing? Don't your friends live sailing? WTF makes you think anybody could resist the wonderful lure of sailing?? 

**++++++******+++++******

Here once again is a fundamental description of a real solution. I will write it as briefly  as I can more time for those who might wake up.  ++++

We need to create a new boat that does what Lasers do but costs significantly less. The boat really needs to feel and sail much as a Laser does but it must be modernized for ease of manufacture, durability, and creature comfort. 

The boat must be heavily promoted in virtually every available boating media and the sales and promotion team must accomplish the things necessary to politically take over as THE SINGLEHANDED RACER'S  SAILING TOY.

(Think golf balls with dimples or 16 pound bowling balls. One sport. One toy for playing the sport) 

Done right, the first couple years there will be 3,000 strategically placed new boats. Soon thereafter, 10,000 to 20,000 of these new boats will sell annually in North America.

As it succeeds here it will easily take over the market in the rest of the world.

In ten to fifteen years,  the sheer numbers of people who enjoy sailing will cause need for larger racing and cruising sailboats.... (kind of like the boom in 22 to 30 foot sailboats that happened in the eighties. )

my guesstimate is:

It will take an initial Investment  of about $20,000,000 to get the new boat into production and sufficiently seeded around North America. 

Until somebody does that?? The game will continue to shrink. 

We need a billionaire who loves sailing and racing, has enjoyed racing with the very cream of the Laser sailor crop, and would like to be THE GUY who didn't just save the game , he turned it into the fabulous game we couid only have because he planted the seeds for the game and held on long enough to develop the root system. 

..... 

it can happen

it should happen

if all you want to do is try to stop it from happening

please STFU

 

I WONT BE LISTENING TO YOU. 

Good for you on trying to save it, a true hero. I know for a fact you aren't the 'only' one.

 

Come to Newport. It would be eye opening for your small world mind.

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14 minutes ago, J/120 said:

Good for you on trying to save it, a true hero. I know for a fact you aren't the 'only' one.

 

Come to Newport. It would be eye opening for your small world mind.

Newport? What ? When? Why? 

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The sailboat market is 1% of what it was at its peak.

Kinda like land line phones.

Paul Larsen might have the disruptive concept to fix this. It's nothing at all like a Laser: a nicer rotary dial won't bring back land lines.

I love sailing leadmine monohulls. My daughter loves riding horses. Neither represents any kind of growth industry.

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14 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Newport? What ? When? Why? 

There are a metric shit ton of boats and sailors racing around lower Narragansett Bay, that's why..

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13 hours ago, carcrash said:

The sailboat market is 1% of what it was at its peak.

Kinda like land line phones.

Paul Larsen might have the disruptive concept to fix this. It's nothing at all like a Laser: a nicer rotary dial won't bring back land lines.

I love sailing leadmine monohulls. My daughter loves riding horses. Neither represents any kind of growth industry.

Phones were replaced by a better product.

Sailboats are not an inferior product to anything... just different 

when Lassie was popular homes had more collies

Snoopy  caused a beagle boom

rin tin tin caused a German Shepard boom

We have two of these 

 

Harleys boom every few years 

 

somehow... sailing became a "thing" for a while 

it can happen again 

somebody will sponsor another boom sometime 

I hope it is soon enough for me to play 

 

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Buster Hammond,R.I.P,  ex president of Islander Yachts used to say, "America spends more money annually on bubblegum than they do on sailing."

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On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 3:05 AM, carcrash said:

The sailboat market is 1% of what it was at its peak.

Kinda like land line phones.

Paul Larsen might have the disruptive concept to fix this. It's nothing at all like a Laser: a nicer rotary dial won't bring back land lines.

I love sailing leadmine monohulls. My daughter loves riding horses. Neither represents any kind of growth industry.

My experience is they start out growing and get pretty big, shit all over the place, and eventually become a death industry. YMMV

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On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 0:53 AM, J/120 said:

Good for you on trying to save it, a true hero. I know for a fact you aren't the 'only' one.

 

Come to Newport. It would be eye opening for your small world mind.

Yup - If you spent all your time commuting between Annapolis and Newport, the #1 issue you would see facing sailing is available slip space and water to race boats in are both about to run out.

Meanwhile, my dock is half empty in *August*. We had more boat a few years ago in February :rolleyes: The good point is the marina tried to raise the rates and no one would pay, so they went right back down. The bad side is they will eventually give up.

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5 hours ago, hmsmweasel said:

so with this news, who is going to build the 24 and 22 if any new orders come in?

Are people really ordering new J/24's and J/22's? Great but very old designs, that probably cost a lot new, with thousands of used ones out there. If people had been ordering them, Alerion's, etc. US Watercraft wouldn't be going under?

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Plenty of slips in NPT area.  Portsmouth has an approved 500 slip marina waiting to go in next to Melville.

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56 minutes ago, TBone said:

No ka oi, Gouv

That was a shot of two entire dogs but I kept cropping it until it was small enough for this page to accept the file  

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Any updates on US watercraft looks like a court date came an d went a few weeks ago. I drove by last week. Lots of stuff going on at the TPI half of the building just a couple cars over at US watercraft but one of the garage doors was up a couple feet. 

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1 hour ago, forty six & 2 said:

Any updates on US watercraft looks like a court date came an d went a few weeks ago. I drove by last week. Lots of stuff going on at the TPI half of the building just a couple cars over at US watercraft but one of the garage doors was up a couple feet. 

Tried reaching them via phone several times over past few weeks ... no luck, VM boxes are full.  #badsign

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This is on the Waterlines webs site

We are temporarily undergoing some restructuring and also taking this time to conduct an inventory.  Please try us again after September 1, 2017.  If you have a part on order which you have not received and for which you have paid in advance, please contact us directly at 401-247-3000 ext 304 leave you name, telephone number, email and contact information as well as the part or item and we will have someone reply promptly.

Sincerely, U.S. Watercraft.”

W

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By the Lee:

I bought three of them to give as gifts to clients at launch time. But I know the guy who made them and he makes a lot of yacht hardware so he put this through quite a prototype phases to make sure it would work while retaining the look. He was getting a lot of "help" over on Face book. Not sure i'd use on on my own boat but I want one in my office as an art piece.

Dolphin2

 

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On 7/31/2017 at 9:19 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

Sorry if real life is "negative" and you REALLY need to be careful for what you wish for.

I have gone from paying $30/hr to over $100/hr for airplane maintenance, so falling popularity and less customers sure as hell did not make anything cheaper except for initial purchase price. Do not wish to see that repeated.

It is interesting that airplane owners expect a lower shop rate than they pay at an automotive garage.

This is despite the fact that aircraft mechanics must posess a licence that takes  24 months to obtain and must sign a permanent record of the work they have performed.

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So received this email from US Waterline systems. Which seems to be one of the entitities that they preserved.  

 

"So don't miss the opportunity"

We have you covered

 

 


"Preparation and planning begin now to help insure you do not miss a single day next season"
We know how important and infrequent those perfect days on the water can be. We love being on the water and we know you do to! Waterline Systems offers a full array of services for your boat. Power or sail, racer or cruiser, our staff will work with you this off season to insure your boat is structurally, cosmetically and mechanically ready to go. 2018 will mark 30 years of providing "World Class" service to our customers and we look forward to sharing our expertise and knowledge with you. Contact Waterline Systems now to schedule storage, repairs, refits or if you are doing it yourself and just need advice and some parts we've got you covered on that as well. sales@waterlinesystems.com 

 

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On 8/25/2017 at 4:58 PM, GrandWeasel said:

Two damn pages and no one has answered the question.  What is the legal name of the company?

Waterline Group Holdings, Inc.

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The Company in receivership is US Watercraft, LLC

Waterline Group Holdings, Inc  is a separate company and is one of the plaintiffs...

Waterline Systems is part of Waterline Group Holdings, Inc -- not US Watercraft, LLC 

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On 8/29/2017 at 0:00 PM, entropy said:

The Company in receivership is US Watercraft, LLC

Waterline Group Holdings, Inc  is a separate company and is one of the plaintiffs...

Waterline Systems is part of Waterline Group Holdings, Inc -- not US Watercraft, LLC 

Waterline Systems/Waterline Group Holdings = Randy Borges aka Dunes, the president of USWatercraft

 

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I am trying to order some J80 parts but their website order system does not work and they do not return my phone calls.

I was trying to order J80 bow pulpit, chainplates, and several hundred dollars of other J80 parts.  I finally had to get a local fabricator to duplicate my chain-plates, and he will start work on a bow pulpit replacement soon.

Anyone know where I can get some plastic J80 transom scuppers?

 

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Perhaps consider contacting J/Composites in Europe as they are the European Builder of the J/80. I was considering buying a J/80 but if I can't get parts for it maybe it wouldn't be a good idea. Please post if you are able to find parts somewhere.

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On 8/12/2017 at 3:55 PM, billy backstay said:

There are a metric shit ton of boats and sailors racing around lower Narragansett Bay, that's why..

The boats out there on the best Newport day are probably 10% of the number of boats that are out in Cowes or Garda on a typical Saturday, and Newport is America's shining hope for sailing.  As the Great Pumpkin would say, "SAD".

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On October 11, 2017 at 11:45 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

The boats out there on the best Newport day are probably 10% of the number of boats that are out in Cowes or Garda on a typical Saturday, and Newport is America's shining hope for sailing.  As the Great Pumpkin would say, "SAD".

Or

DEAD!

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Re-read my post, immediately knew it was wrong, those were July numbers only.  My bad.  Here's the corrected one:

2017 January thru July in the U.S. New Powerboats sold:  173,232 units [production up 3.1% compared to 2016]

2017 January thru July in the U.S. New Sailboats sold: 970 units [production down 37% compared to 2016]

It's easy to see why sailboat makers would shift production over to powerboats if they want to make a living.

 

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I can see it now, J boats can recycle their old numbers with a "P" at the end for their new overpriced power boat line.  J/24P, then the J/29P, the J/35P and on and on.

You KNOW it has to be coming...

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What I don't get with all the green armageddon global warming greenhouse gas sea level rising environmental fanatics out there that sailboats don't seem to be better sellers than powerboats.

It's sort of like having the word "hybrid" on your car or putting a little green "e" on your business card (tipped over at an angle, naturally) - doesn't everybody want that image?

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3 hours ago, DrewR said:

I can see it now, J boats can recycle their old numbers with a "P" at the end for their new overpriced power boat line.  J/24P, then the J/29P, the J/35P and on and on.

You KNOW it has to be coming...

You do know that Johnstones brother owns a Power Boat Builder, right?  :D

 

https://www.mjmyachts.com/

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Yes I do indeed. Been on one.  But it's not a JBOAT.  That was my point you see.

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9 minutes ago, DrewR said:

Yes I do indeed. Been on one.  But it's not a JBOAT.  That was my point you see.

Yup.  Maybe when they consolidate in the future.  :P

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