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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
hoppy

Club/offshore racers in Aus up to $80k AUD

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7 hours ago, Third Reef said:

Hi Hoppy,

Have you considered a Farr 38R sport ?  There is one  ready to go in SA.

http://www.38southboatsales.com.au/farr-38r-sport/

Does anyone else know the history and details behind this design ?

With its additional ballast, I wonder if it would make a good M2O boat ?  

It is not specifically listed by Farr.

3rdR

Third Reef, 

 

The story behind the design is this. Binks yacht in South Australian made mould s for the Farr 11.6 and built them for years. Many of the boats ended up in the charter fleets at Airle Beach long before the imports took over the fleets. The design dates back to about 1978-79 ish and is a great all round Boat. 

 

David Binks the Australian builder of the boats 1 of about 3 builders world wide in about 1990 ish reworked the moulds and added more freeboard and added a sugar scoop, built a new deck and changed the keel from a fin to a bulb and then called it the Farr IMS 38 and again around 2000 ish he then updated it a again. 

 

So the Boat is basically a Farr 11.6 hull with a few changes along the way. The best part of owning this boat is you could claim the age allowance for AMS or IRC as the hull is a 1978-79 design. 

 

The boat  was not designed to any rules just as a fast racer / cruiser is it rates very well because the design is about 10-15 years ahead of its time. 

 

pulpit

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25 minutes ago, pulpit said:

Third Reef, 

 

The story behind the design is this. Binks yacht in South Australian made mould s for the Farr 11.6 and built them for years. Many of the boats ended up in the charter fleets at Airle Beach long before the imports took over the fleets. The design dates back to about 1978-79 ish and is a great all round Boat. 

 

David Binks the Australian builder of the boats 1 of about 3 builders world wide in about 1990 ish reworked the moulds and added more freeboard and added a sugar scoop, built a new deck and changed the keel from a fin to a bulb and then called it the Farr IMS 38 and again around 2000 ish he then updated it a again. 

 

So the Boat is basically a Farr 11.6 hull with a few changes along the way. The best part of owning this boat is you could claim the age allowance for AMS or IRC as the hull is a 1978-79 design. 

 

The boat  was not designed to any rules just as a fast racer / cruiser is it rates very well because the design is about 10-15 years ahead of its time. 

 

pulpit

I was wondering if they were all related. Interesting keel progression

 

11.6

imagehelper.asp?file_id=6510

 

This is listed as a 11.6 but the keel is more modern

4_4.jpg

38 IMS

farr_ims_38_for_sale_2.jpg

38R sport

9_4.jpg

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Anyone know much about the Jutson 39 design?

This one looks pretty good and is $79k and has been listed for a while so maybe open to offers. I see that this boat has done at least five S2H.

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/jutson-39/207815 

Woofer. And bounced the keel off a few things over the years.

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Hoppy, Sweetheart is very well looked after. There's a yellow 43' Jutson called Another Fiasco that hasn't really performed. 

I think the FARR 38 - 1998 team connection was that James Hallion lost Stand Aside & had the FARR 38r Sport built. 

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5 hours ago, pulpit said:

 

So the Boat is basically a Farr 11.6 hull with a few changes along the way. The best part of owning this boat is you could claim the age allowance for AMS or IRC as the hull is a 1978-79 design.t

Are you sure about this point? 

I was keen on buying one a few years back, and was pretty sure it was a seperate design from Farr to the 11.6.

I agree that a lot of the farr designs look very similar though - even the beneteau that farr designed in the 80s looks very similar to the farr 38.

Nice boats to sail, I actually wanted one as a family cruiser.

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Sweethart is a nothingburger boat. Does nothing well. Been looked after okay but hasn’t moved much for a while and maintenance has been minimal. The Babe ( the 43 footer) did win PHS in the Hobart a few years back. But it’s a horrible piece of gear.

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53 minutes ago, Se7en said:

Are you sure about this point? 

I was keen on buying one a few years back, and was pretty sure it was a seperate design from Farr to the 11.6.

I agree that a lot of the farr designs look very similar though - even the beneteau that farr designed in the 80s looks very similar to the farr 38.

Nice boats to sail, I actually wanted one as a family cruiser.

Se7en 

 

yes im shore. 

 

A lot of Boat builder update their tooling so that they can keep selling boats. Binks yachts was a small yard in Adelaide and David worked hard to keep selling boats and building a new deck mould is cheaper than building a new hull and deck moulds. 

 

The Farr  11.6 is a great around Boat and was ahead of its time and a great hull. The boats designed in the early 90’s were far closes in design than the boats designed in the late 70’s and early 80’s. Bink’s had a few problems in some of his builds like all builders, the thing is David did build great boats that did perform.

 

pulpit 

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On 15/12/2017 at 5:41 PM, greasy al said:

but suffers the usual Jutson issues of draggy arse and fine bow. 

Does the same apply to Jutson designed NSX36?

Was down at willy today and saw Bookmaker at a distance

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/northshore-nsx36/199607

KO9A1113.thumb.jpg.668e8d59abd07ae4bf2e301b3b1cc1bb.jpg

I noticed from the stern that it must have been set up for runners in the past. After loading the photos on my computer I noticed that there seems to be sheets of aluminum on either side of them mast starting just above the boom and going up to the top spreaders. I assume that it is strengthening for the mast as part of removing the runners.

Looks like a nice boat but it's probably still overpriced especially with 12 yo standing rigging. 

 

KO9A1100.thumb.jpg.06987749d21613b570ac98b4cc28b09f.jpgKO9A1101.thumb.jpg.43bdfe098d8e4593976a32a676142f2f.jpg

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I wouldn't assume runners from the stern pic - my boat has the same attachments, the backstay joins a bit above head height to a single backstay via a block - it's to avoid the transom / sugar scoop

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4 hours ago, hoppy said:

Does the same apply to Jutson designed NSX36?

Was down at willy today and saw Bookmaker at a distance

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/northshore-nsx36/199607

KO9A1113.thumb.jpg.668e8d59abd07ae4bf2e301b3b1cc1bb.jpg

I noticed from the stern that it must have been set up for runners in the past. After loading the photos on my computer I noticed that there seems to be sheets of aluminum on either side of them mast starting just above the boom and going up to the top spreaders. I assume that it is strengthening for the mast as part of removing the runners.

Looks like a nice boat but it's probably still overpriced especially with 12 yo standing rigging. 

 

 

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/elliott-1050-cruiser/211322

Lose the anchor gear and convert back to tiller.

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On 16/12/2017 at 12:02 AM, pulpit said:

Se7en 

 

yes im shore. 

 

A lot of Boat builder update their tooling so that they can keep selling boats. Binks yachts was a small yard in Adelaide and David worked hard to keep selling boats and building a new deck mould is cheaper than building a new hull and deck moulds.

pulpit 

 Apologies then, sounds like you are across the history.

When I was looking for one, I had it explained to me that the 11.6 was Farr design 72, while the later Farr 38s were design 172. Looking at the designs, the hull shape is pretty close, if not exactly the same. Different builders may have built to the later design only I guess.

I was also told (By someone with a late 90s build date) that the 38 sport was the same hull with a deeper bulb keel and a taller rig. Alliance was the only boat I saw while looking over 3 years that was called a 38 sport

Either way, they are nice boats, and at $99k I would have bought Alliance 3 years ago if the condition matches the photos. But I couldnt contact the owner, so bought something else... which has almost the same dimensions and layout as design 172. And cruised it from Melbourne to Whitsundays this year 

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On 12/16/2017 at 6:21 PM, hoppy said:

Does the same apply to Jutson designed NSX36?

Was down at willy today and saw Bookmaker at a distance

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/northshore-nsx36/199607

KO9A1113.thumb.jpg.668e8d59abd07ae4bf2e301b3b1cc1bb.jpg

I noticed from the stern that it must have been set up for runners in the past. After loading the photos on my computer I noticed that there seems to be sheets of aluminum on either side of them mast starting just above the boom and going up to the top spreaders. I assume that it is strengthening for the mast as part of removing the runners.

Looks like a nice boat but it's probably still overpriced especially with 12 yo standing rigging. 

 

 

I'm pretty sure it did have runners when it was 2ky racing radio/Extasea/Bookmaker (early on).  Then it got converted to swept-backs.

I'm pretty sure it was designed as part of the Admirals Cup competition to choose the 36ft one design in the early 90's- the Farr entry won and became the Mumm 36.  The boats from that era all had runners.

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1 hour ago, minch said:

I'm pretty sure it did have runners when it was 2ky racing radio/Extasea/Bookmaker (early on).  Then it got converted to swept-backs.

I'm pretty sure it was designed as part of the Admirals Cup competition to choose the 36ft one design in the early 90's- the Farr entry won and became the Mumm 36.  The boats from that era all had runners.

correct on both counts.

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On ‎15‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 4:11 PM, greasy al said:

Woofer. And bounced the keel off a few things over the years.

Geez Al, you bag all the boats I used to race on.  Is that because they used to beat the ones you were sailing on at the time?

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21 hours ago, podrick said:

Geez Al, you bag all the boats I used to race on.  Is that because they used to beat the ones you were sailing on at the time?

Rose coloured hindsight goggles for Christmas. Neato.

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I see that the Mumm36 has dropped in price to $55k.

 https://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1995-MUMM-36/SSE-AD-4788388/

I just noticed the comment "Alloy mast with double spreader with reinforcing plates fitted on side walls". Which sounds like a similar mod to what was done to The Bookmaker. Maybe with the addition of swept back spreaders then the runners could be dumped. I would not be interested if I need to replace the whole mast, but if the existing mast could be used with swept back spreaders and new standing rigging, it could be an economical buy. I guess the stays will have to go outboard restricting the sail size.

I will add this back to my viewing list. 

 

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38 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I see that the Mumm36 has dropped in price to $55k.

 https://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1995-MUMM-36/SSE-AD-4788388/

I just noticed the comment "Alloy mast with double spreader with reinforcing plates fitted on side walls". Which sounds like a similar mod to what was done to The Bookmaker. Maybe with the addition of swept back spreaders then the runners could be dumped. I would not be interested if I need to replace the whole mast, but if the existing mast could be used with swept back spreaders and new standing rigging, it could be an economical buy. I guess the stays will have to go outboard restricting the sail size.

I will add this back to my viewing list. 

 

what's wrong with runners?

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2 minutes ago, ASP said:

what's wrong with runners?

It depends on why the boat needs them. If they are needed to keep the mast up, then I don't want them. If they are required mostly for forestay tension, then I can accept them.

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8 minutes ago, hoppy said:

It depends on why the boat needs them. If they are needed to keep the mast up, then I don't want them. If they are required mostly for forestay tension, then I can accept them.

I'm not familiar with this specific Mumm 36 but I know they are renowned for having spindly rigs that will grenade in 2 secs if you don't get the runner on in a gybe. 

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9 hours ago, hoppy said:

I see that the Mumm36 has dropped in price to $55k.

 https://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1995-MUMM-36/SSE-AD-4788388/

I just noticed the comment "Alloy mast with double spreader with reinforcing plates fitted on side walls". Which sounds like a similar mod to what was done to The Bookmaker. Maybe with the addition of swept back spreaders then the runners could be dumped. I would not be interested if I need to replace the whole mast, but if the existing mast could be used with swept back spreaders and new standing rigging, it could be an economical buy. I guess the stays will have to go outboard restricting the sail size.

I will add this back to my viewing list. 

 

Existing mast modified with swept back spreaders?? And just where were you planning on putting the chainplates?

They will be utterly useless in their original location if you make that mod to the rig and relocating chainplate bulkheads wont be a cheap exercise either.

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4 hours ago, Last Post said:

Existing mast modified with swept back spreaders?? And just where were you planning on putting the chainplates?

They will be utterly useless in their original location if you make that mod to the rig and relocating chainplate bulkheads wont be a cheap exercise either.

That was implied here...

14 hours ago, hoppy said:

I guess the stays will have to go outboard restricting the sail size.

If I looked at and liked the boat, I would engage a rigger to look at the boat and advise/quote me on such a mod before I could consider making an offer.

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2 hours ago, hoppy said:

That was implied here...

If I looked at and liked the boat, I would engage a rigger to look at the boat and advise/quote me on such a mod before I could consider making an offer.

Hoppy, if you are at all interested it, would be worth your while to pop down to the Mumm 36 Centre of Excellence down here. The one shown in the link above looks to be in quite good condition.

We currently have 4 competitive boats here to discuss with the owners. 

One has been converted to aft swept spreaders and another has recently had a major makeover and looks like a brand new boat. Photos below of the converted boat - no runners.

taspaints1.JPG.86111d53d72b2d085c0e87c168dd08bd.JPGtaspaints2.JPG.04ac7f93230e41cc1dee9cf4e38ca029.JPG

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20 hours ago, hoppy said:

I see that the Mumm36 has dropped in price to $55k.

 https://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1995-MUMM-36/SSE-AD-4788388/

I just noticed the comment "Alloy mast with double spreader with reinforcing plates fitted on side walls". Which sounds like a similar mod to what was done to The Bookmaker. Maybe with the addition of swept back spreaders then the runners could be dumped. I would not be interested if I need to replace the whole mast, but if the existing mast could be used with swept back spreaders and new standing rigging, it could be an economical buy. I guess the stays will have to go outboard restricting the sail size.

I will add this back to my viewing list. 

 

Hoppy

The "reinforcing plates" are probably fitted because of the extra 200kg added to the keel. I have my doubts whether the existing extrusion would be OK for swept back spreaders. The boats that do have them generally have a new extrusion, the step moved and the fore stay higher. Then of course is the cost of the chain plates' mods.

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2 hours ago, SCANAS said:

+ Keel + Rudder

Buy one fully done or all original. 

From what I understand, keel and rudder changes go hand in hand with relocating the mast. 

Obviously one that's all done is always better, but at my level I would imagine that just updating the rig would be sufficient. Anyway just thinking out loud still.

If I can pick up a couple more experienced sailors and a few keen to learn novices, maybe I can race it in original form.

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6 hours ago, 42 South said:

Hoppy, if you are at all interested it, would be worth your while to pop down to the Mumm 36 Centre of Excellence down here. The one shown in the link above looks to be in quite good condition.

We currently have 4 competitive boats here to discuss with the owners. 

One has been converted to aft swept spreaders and another has recently had a major makeover and looks like a brand new boat. Photos below of the converted boat - no runners.

I had contacted Ian previously when he was on a delivery but never followed it up. I have now emailed him again to try and get more info about his mods and that of the others down there.

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I was just playing around with Predictwind to look at the forecast for the S2H and the routing for WOIX, when I realised that they now have a Sun Odyssey 40 and some of my $80k list in their polars. The current forecast model gives a lot of reaching and running conditions making it a fast race.

WOIX                        1 day 11h 51m 56s

Sun Odyssey 40     3 days 12h 53m 18s        My cruiser

Sun fast 40             3 days 11h 13m 43s        Race version of my boat

Young 11                2 days 23h 38m 53s         OutsideEdge sold :(      downwind flyer

Mumm36               3 days 10h 35m 59s         Maximumm

Mumm30               2 days 17h 42m 1s           One is available but it's too small for old people to race

SF3200                   3 days 7h 49m 28s            Way too expensive, but is my favorite

Sydney 38               3 days 1h 21m 27s           Outside my $80k 

 

If the race was H2S starting the same time. A windward race

WOIX                       2 days 9h 6m 19s

Sun Odyssey 40     4 days 10h 30m 23s 

Sun fast 40             4 days 10h 21m 14s          I would have thought upwind it would be much faster. Maybe the polars are wrong c/w my SO40?

Young 11                 4 days 7h 15m 34s           

Mumm36                5 days 13h 25m 8s             WTF??????

Mumm30                4 days 12h 51m 38s   

SF3200                   4 days 7h 59m 53s

Sydney 38              4 days 0h 20m 43s

 

This comparison does show some things I would expect and others that are just confusing, that suggest some polars on PW could be dodgy. 

I can believe that a SO40 & SF40 could be similar downwind but not upwind. Looking at predicted conditions, the wind is in the perfect range for my SO40 for much of the passage allowing it to be closer to the other yachts. The SF3200 performance compared to the other Jeanneau's matches what I've seen from Fastnet results. 

The Y11 & S38 seem to match their relative reputations from what I have read here.

 

I am struggling to believe that the Mumm36 can be so slow upwind that it's a day behind my Jeanneau. The polars must be screwed for it..

These are some of the stats for the Mumm 36

Max wind speed (knots) 25.7

Ave wind speed (knots) 17.2

% time upwind               75%

% time 8 - 20 knots       63%

% time 20 - 30 knots     33%

 

What this exercise has told me is

1) I'd be happy with a S38's performance if my budget could stretch there. But race results had told me that already.

2) I'm disappointed that there are no Y11's in Aus for sale now.

3) If the polars are right, the Mumm36 is a dog and the keel, rudder & rig mods are necessary or PW has got it totally wrong

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On 12/19/2017 at 3:03 PM, hoppy said:

I see that the Mumm36 has dropped in price to $55k.

 https://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1995-MUMM-36/SSE-AD-4788388/

I just noticed the comment "Alloy mast with double spreader with reinforcing plates fitted on side walls". Which sounds like a similar mod to what was done to The Bookmaker. Maybe with the addition of swept back spreaders then the runners could be dumped. I would not be interested if I need to replace the whole mast, but if the existing mast could be used with swept back spreaders and new standing rigging, it could be an economical buy. I guess the stays will have to go outboard restricting the sail size.

I will add this back to my viewing list. 

 

Probably cheaper and less painful to pick up a Farr 40, zero farking around relocating chainplates, and moving mast, keel, rudder etc.

 

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Mumm 36 was a great One Design....but time has moved on, the fleets dissipated and the isolated few that remain do not and will not perform under any other race certificate...mods are just throwing good money after bad IMHO.

 

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5 minutes ago, hoppy said:

A bit more than 80k but maybe it could be worth the stretch. I recall the name from earlier Mumm 36 discussions, so I will dig around to find out more information.

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/mumm-36-modified/211403

Hmmmm no mention of Corum here, I must have seen it elsewhere when researching Mumm 36 modifications. Corum has gone through major mods 

Quote

modified with a Hugh Welbourne T bulb keel, mast moved aft and a squaretop main to be even quicker on all points of sail and a record to back it up.

 

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99% sure that 3rd pic is Southport Seaway Hoppy. You asked about it in the P2P thread. 

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Best small boat in the ocean I have ever sailed.

great boat.

Will have to go for half the asking price.+

 

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1 minute ago, SCANAS said:

99% sure that 3rd pic is Southport Seaway Hoppy. You asked about it in the P2P thread. 

I was thinking that... Gone are the days that I might have thought that would be fun.

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2 minutes ago, lydia said:

Best small boat in the ocean I have ever sailed.

great boat.

Will have to go for half the asking price.+

 

Where do they race out of? RQYS? Just looking for race results...

It's had all of the mods that have scared me off the other Mumm36

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Just make an offer

Insure it and truck it to Melbourne costs another $10k.

Problem solved.

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17 hours ago, hoppy said:

Hmmmm no mention of Corum here, I must have seen it elsewhere when researching Mumm 36 modifications. Corum has gone through major mods 

 

Very nice piece of kit.  Welbourne redid the keel on Ed Psaltis's Farr 40 Midnight Rambler a while back, that was very successful.  Mumm 36 is a sweet boat IMHO and Cookson builds second to none.  

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Corum almost looks a little too much beyond my ability to make it seem scary. But then again, I could always fit the single backstay and store the fat head main until we are ready to get serious with IRC racing.

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16 hours ago, Next Level said:

Would these mumm 36s be quicker than a s38 on most points of sail?

Yeah.... no. As much as it pains me to say it.

 

I sailed a stock Mumm 36 a bit back in the 90's and it is a sweet "little" boat at sea. But upwind in any kind of breeze she really wanted a fully stacked rail for stability. Once you cracked off she was less (but still) dependant on rail meat and once you were running she was a total sweetie.

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1 hour ago, Jason AUS said:

Yeah.... no. As much as it pains me to say it.

 

I sailed a stock Mumm 36 a bit back in the 90's and it is a sweet "little" boat at sea. But upwind in any kind of breeze she really wanted a fully stacked rail for stability. Once you cracked off she was less (but still) dependant on rail meat and once you were running she was a total sweetie.

That’s a shame. They look like fun boats but maybe not great offshore boats if they’re very tippy.

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2 hours ago, Next Level said:

That’s a shame. They look like fun boats but maybe not great offshore boats if they’re very tippy.

I struggle with that reservation - any boat goes faster with weight on the rail and if you're racing surely you're aiming to maximise performance, unless you're sailing under a performance based regime of course.  

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I was doing a bit of work on my boat today after going for a bit of a sail, and High Anxiety motored past. She's still a pretty sweet looking boat. Just sayin'...

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On 05/01/2018 at 7:57 PM, DickDastardly said:

I struggle with that reservation - any boat goes faster with weight on the rail and if you're racing surely you're aiming to maximise performance, unless you're sailing under a performance based regime of course.  

Even my Jeanneau works better with moveable ballast. Solo with full sails (135% genoa), 20-22 knots TWS was the maximum when going to windward in flatish seas, but with a crew on the rail 28 knots is fine.  

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33 minutes ago, DanimalNZ said:

Any specific reason why the yellow Fiasco wasn't that good?

Corum?

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Jutson 43 Another Fiasco & no idea. It did always look to be heeled over more than it should. 

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3 hours ago, SCANAS said:

Jutson 43 Another Fiasco & no idea. 

It sounds like you are offering a very critical opinion on the Jutson 43 and on Jutson in general... :D

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3 hours ago, SCANAS said:

Jutson 43 Another Fiasco & no idea. It did always look to be heeled over more than it should. 

Looks like a deep draft keel with not much meat on it. 

2_4.jpg

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I'm pretty sure 2, possibly a 3rd poster in this thread sailed on it to Hobart & would know more. I kinda remember it in Brisbane but I was a teenager at the time. Sailed against in a race week in 2015 & it always seemed heeled over & sailing lower than similar boats. 

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Friends don't let friends sail Babe, at least not in the ocean!

Full marks to Pete Bolton as builder though.

Cabin roof is impact resistant!

Not the original keel btw and last 350mm is timber.

It is a long list!

 

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7 hours ago, lydia said:

Not the original keel btw and last 350mm is timber.

WTF

Is it like a crumple zone in a car, to protect the keel bolts... ;)

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In my price range, but at 43 ft I had already overlooked it.

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/jutson-43/177354

I was going to comment about it being reefed in benign conditions, but now I see that it's fully hoisted.  Not it's race sail I guess and  based on the sail number, it could be from the Seaquest Rp36 "How Bizaree". Does seem to be heeled over a lot for the conditions, small main and meat on the rail. 

1_4.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, hoppy said:

In my price range, but at 43 ft I had already overlooked it.

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/jutson-43/177354

I was going to comment about it being reefed in benign conditions, but now I see that it's fully hoisted.  Not it's race sail I guess and  based on the sail number, it could be from the Seaquest Rp36 "How Bizaree". Does seem to be heeled over a lot for the conditions, small main and meat on the rail. 

1_4.jpg

 

I'd imagine it's sailing to the finish in a Hobart race under a designated spare / delivery main having trashed the race sail. 

As to stability, just look at the data rather than opining on out of context photos or Sailing Anarchy hearsay.   http://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/66651.pdf 

Measured RM may seem a little low for a 43 footer at 173kg.m but it's worth comparing to similar sized boats.  If I'm reading the ORCi certificate correctly it has 1420kg of lead in the bilge, hence the relataively low stability.  That would be an IMS leftover, I'd take it out and stick maybe half that or a little more on the bottom of the keel - depending on whether IRC matters or not.    

It's relatively light for its size so would be a fun ride in downwind conditions.  At 234kg the rig is pretty heavy, a surplus Farr 40 mast might be a good investment.  A modern high modulus Carbon rig would cost a bomb, not worth the investment, but would be about 2/3 the weight of the current alloy spar.  Scrap the overlapping jibs maybe.  At 110 sqm the kites are tiny by current standards - should be say 170,  so bigger kites are a no brainer (Sailexchange.com.au has plenty) but the rig may not be up to masthead kites.  I'm guessing its the original IMS mast.

I reckon for a relatively small investment this boat could be made quite competitive.  I used to race against it as "Maglieri Wines" in the mid 90s under IMS and it was reasonably quick when sailed well IIRC.

 

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Sailing Anarchy hearsay seems to be spot on in this case DD. Even if you bought it for 40k that's a lot of work. Farr40 mast, rigging, keel mods or new keel, time out in the boat yard, sails, then you still have a Frankenstein boat. Then you'd have to get someone to sign it off which together with moving half that weight into the keel & the boat not having a great rep might be pretty tough     these days. 

Sweetheart has already has a carbon rig if you wanted a Jutson. 

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/jutson-39/207815

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23 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

Sailing Anarchy hearsay seems to be spot on in this case DD. Even if you bought it for 40k that's a lot of work. Farr40 mast, rigging, keel mods or new keel, time out in the boat yard, sails, then you still have a Frankenstein boat. Then you'd have to get someone to sign it off which together with moving half that weight into the keel & the boat not having a great rep might be pretty tough     these days. 

Sweetheart has already has a carbon rig if you wanted a Jutson. 

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/jutson-39/207815

Grant you that - all depends on the buy price!  Sooner or later that tin rig will fall down so an insurance-based renovation would be the likely outcome some lucky future owner.  

Sweetheart looks like a good buy at that price.

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3 hours ago, hoppy said:

In my price range, but at 43 ft I had already overlooked it.

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/jutson-43/177354

I was going to comment about it being reefed in benign conditions, but now I see that it's fully hoisted.  Not it's race sail I guess and  based on the sail number, it could be from the Seaquest Rp36 "How Bizaree". Does seem to be heeled over a lot for the conditions, small main and meat on the rail. 

 

 

She started life as Maglieri Wines, and in her first Hobart race (1994 or 1995 IIRC) the crew nicknamed her "Babe" after the movie. Apparently the boat "is a pig, who thinks it's a dog."

I'm not sure she's improved with age....

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9 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

As to stability, just look at the data rather than opining on out of context photos or Sailing Anarchy hearsay.   http://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/66651.pdf 

How do you find the ORC ratings? I can't seem to find it with google and no search option on their site. Do you need a login to the ORC site? 

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2 hours ago, hoppy said:

How do you find the ORC ratings? I can't seem to find it with google and no search option on their site. Do you need a login to the ORC site? 

Yes.  It's free to set up.

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41 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

Yes.  It's free to set up.

Done.. Kind of useful I i can find the boat or similar on their database. Very disappointed that I cannot find the same as my Jeanneau with an international cert to see the polars. The all have only club ratings.

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I had a look on a Sydney 38 yesterday and I have to say I quite like them. Practical enough interior for the odd weekend away or cruise back from an ocean race. The big open cockpit in front of the wheel looks good for chilling out after races if I have a couple of bean bags or cushions.The down side is the crew numbers needed for club races using a symmetrical, especially after watching some S38 onboard videos. However I can always just race pursuits as I build up regular the crew numbers and get them trained.

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5 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I had a look on a Sydney 38 yesterday and I have to say I quite like them. Practical enough interior for the odd weekend away or cruise back from an ocean race. The big open cockpit in front of the wheel looks good for chilling out after races if I have a couple of bean bags or cushions.The down side is the crew numbers needed for club races using a symmetrical, especially after watching some S38 onboard videos. However I can always just race pursuits as I build up regular the crew numbers and get them trained.

I’ve done a fair bit of sailing on 38s over the last decade and at the price point they’re at now, they’ve got to be one of the best all round options IMHO.

my 2c

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15 hours ago, Next Level said:

I’ve done a fair bit of sailing on 38s over the last decade and at the price point they’re at now, they’ve got to be one of the best all round options IMHO.

my 2c

Great race boats and should be easy to take to Cat 2. I would be afraid that the Sydney 38's are too far optimised for OD. With a ballast/displacement ratio of 34%, how do you think they would go  short handed for Hoppy's odd weekend away ?

3rdR

 

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23 minutes ago, Third Reef said:

Great race boats and should be easy to take to Cat 2. I would be afraid that the Sydney 38's are too far optimised for OD. With a ballast/displacement ratio of 34%, how do you think they would go  short handed for Hoppy's odd weekend away ?

3rdR

 

Plenty of 38's have done the S2H, including the one we viewed, so cat 2 for the M2D should be easy enough. I guess OD boats that are built to a price are always going to be compromised when racing in open fleets. If I get a S38, I'll probably get it AMS rated and maybe IRC as well but until I get a full crew who are well drilled, then PHS will be fine for bay racing. 

I'm not familiar with what a ballast/displacement ratio of 34% means, but I'll guess from the context is that the S38 might e a bit tippy without meat on the rail? Lydia has suggested to me that for family cruising I add plastic lugs to the delivery/cruising main to make it easier to handle (i'd also get lazy jacks) and use the smallest jib or even the storm sail.

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17 hours ago, hoppy said:

I had a look on a Sydney 38 yesterday and I have to say I quite like them. Practical enough interior for the odd weekend away or cruise back from an ocean race. The big open cockpit in front of the wheel looks good for chilling out after races if I have a couple of bean bags or cushions.The down side is the crew numbers needed for club races using a symmetrical, especially after watching some S38 onboard videos. However I can always just race pursuits as I build up regular the crew numbers and get them trained.

The biggest downside you'll (honestly) find is the enormous wheel. Navigating around that thing when you've got guests on board and are booze cruising is a pain in the ass. Go below to turn on the head for a guest, come back to wheel. Go below to help someone find a plate for the foie gras. Go back to wheel. Go back below to find a bottle opener for the Chateauneuf-du-Pape, go back to wheel. That is how yachting works, isn't it?

 

Apart from that, it should be more than enough for everything you'd want to do with it. It's a pretty tough sub 40' boat, if a little tippy without a full crew (as racer/cruisers can be, as opposed to cruiser/racers).

 

But as with all Sydney yachts... check the rudder bearings, steering cables and sheaves and don't be afraid to get a second opinion on their condition. I've sailed on one Sydney yacht that didn't experience steering failure at any point in it's early life (first 2 years), and that's because the commissioning boat captain told the boys to ignore the plans when those components were being built in. Apparently the sheaves were ever so slightly in the wrong place, and wearing through the steering cables was going to be a foregone conclusion.

 

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3 minutes ago, Jason AUS said:

The biggest downside you'll (honestly) find is the enormous wheel. Navigating around that thing when you've got guests on board and are booze cruising is a pain in the ass. Go below to turn on the head for a guest, come back to wheel. Go below to help someone find a plate for the foie gras. Go back to wheel. Go back below to find a bottle opener for the Chateauneuf-du-Pape, go back to wheel. That is how yachting works, isn't it?

 

Apart from that, it should be more than enough for everything you'd want to do with it. It's a pretty tough sub 40' boat, if a little tippy without a full crew (as racer/cruisers can be, as opposed to cruiser/racers).

 

But as with all Sydney yachts... check the rudder bearings, steering cables and sheaves and don't be afraid to get a second opinion on their condition. I've sailed on one Sydney yacht that didn't experience steering failure at any point in it's early life (first 2 years), and that's because the commissioning boat captain told the boys to ignore the plans when those components were being built in. Apparently the sheaves were ever so slightly in the wrong place, and wearing through the steering cables was going to be a foregone conclusion.

 

I must admit that one of the things I've always loved about my Jeanneau is the access that the twin helms gives and the S38 is almost the exact opposite. I have crappy knees and just got a hip replacement, so I'm very conscious about looking at access when moving around. For that reason I could never consider the Seaquest RP36  that Sportscar was selling which is moored opposite me. However I found negotiating the wheel on the S38 no big deal. If we have guests on board for entertaining, I can steer from in front of the wheel or even just use the AP so I can pour the champers and adjust the sails.

It's still early days as I still need to sell my Jeanneau. On that, I was onboard yesterday and heard someone shouting to me. It was someone who came to view the boat and was waiting for the broker. He is looking for something to solo with two dogs, so hopefully my first hand account of soloing her in Greece and my upgrades will have impressed him more than any broker sales pitch can do. fingers crossed :)

The Sydney 38 is a definite possibility, but i will still view some of the other boats mentioned in this thread. We might plan a family trip to Sydney in a few weeks and view a few boats.

I will definitely get a surveyor to go over what ever boat I make an offer on and as the S38 is common i would presume they will know what to especially check.

 

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On 04/01/2018 at 8:36 PM, Next Level said:

Would these mumm 36s be quicker than a s38 on most points of sail?

S38 slightly quicker depending on mods. We were on a 36 and rarely beat them on line but often on handicap. 

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On 04/01/2018 at 4:50 PM, hoppy said:

A bit more than 80k but maybe it could be worth the stretch. I recall the name from earlier Mumm 36 discussions, so I will dig around to find out more information.

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/mumm-36-modified/211403

Anyone know how the performance/mods of Georgia Express compares to Corum?

Been looking around the ORC rating site and made a spreadsheet comparing the polar performance of various yachts discussed on this thread. HA is the only yacht actually with an ORCi and the rest I've had to rely on polars from sister ships.  I noticed that Georgia Express has a fat head main and from a photo I found they have a modern IRC style keel, so it sounds close to Corum, or at least it's a better match than polars from a standard Mumm 36

FWIW a Sydney 38 beats Georgia Express on all points of sail except once the wind get to 20 knots, GE beats the S38 from 75 degrees. I would guess that beyond 20 the planning of GE will kill the S38

Whilst a Farr38 IMS is not on my shopping list, I included one as we regulary race one and they beat us, but the owner complains that it's not so competitive now. Their speed advantage is the least of all boats over a jeanneau SO40 and only noticeable at the low wind speeds and more to windward. As the wind picks up or we sail deeper the difference reduces and above 8 knots at 120 degrees and beyond, the SO40 is faster. Chances are that the SO40 I have polars from might have much better sails, probably racing sails because the difference on the water is much greater than the polars suggest. It does confirm that I would be better off buying race sails for my SO40 than buying a Farr 38 IMS. The Sydney 38 kills the Farr

The comparison between a Sydney 38 and High Anxiety (Elliott 10.5 mod) is very close with HA mostly having a 0.1-0.2 knot advantage except hen close hauled 10> knots when the S38 is <0.10 faster and when the wind picks up and they are reaching when HA is 1.27 faster in 20 knots at 135 degrees.

Yes, I'm bored and this comparison is partly influenced from my computer nerdiness :)  

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