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badlatitude

North Korea Fires Another Missile While Trump Does Nothing

363 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, mad said:

Let the US go ahead and do just that, they'll become more isolated and more inconsequential if they do. And then maybe the rest of the world will get on and sort out their own mess on their doorsteps. 

Its time for a global change, and we don't need one with Trump anywhere near the helm. 

hmm..all I ever buy that's "made in the USA" ..is lemons.

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If Trump ordered a nuke I have to wonder whether the generals would let him do it.

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10 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

hmm..all I ever buy that's "made in the USA" ..is lemons.

I can't find or think of anything I've bought in the last 15 years that was made in or a product of the US. 

With the BRICS conference going on, I'm sure China could weather the storm. 

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21 minutes ago, random said:

The US does not attack anyone capable of hitting back.  Kim has done what the US and every other country with nukes has done.  Develop weapons to deter anyone thinking of attacking them, the price would be too high.  The strategic and economic value of SK is too great to risk it being trashed. 

If conflict broke out, the entire peninsular could be retaken by the North.  Think Vietnam, men in pyjamas, only this time these guys are hardened.

 

What has 'hardened' the North Koreans? Does state TV run old episodes of MASH to make them think the war is still going?

of course they don't. That would require the North Koreans people to have access to both TV's and electricity. But if thinking about men in pyjamas floats your boat- knock yourself out.

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16 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

hmm..all I ever buy that's "made in the USA" ..is lemons.

Explains the bitterness.

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13 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

If Trump ordered a nuke I have to wonder whether the generals would let him do it.

I don't think they could stop him. 

 

1 minute ago, LB 15 said:

Explains the bitterness.

I lied..I buy peaches too :P

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30 minutes ago, random said:

The US does not attack anyone capable of hitting back.  

 

So is Arlington cemetery just another fraud like 911?

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7 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

I don't think they could stop him. 

 

I lied..I buy peaches too :P

And how about peaches, Mell. Have we seen yours? Please post linky. TIA

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16 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

What has 'hardened' the North Koreans? Does state TV run old episodes of MASH to make them think the war is still going?

of course they don't. That would require the North Koreans people to have access to both TV's and electricity. But if thinking about men in pyjamas floats your boat- knock yourself out.

They've justed started re-running the whole MASH series from the very first episode a few weeks ago, coincidence or conspiracy?

 

better ask random I guess. 

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34 minutes ago, random said:

Instead you have tropical fish off your coasts and the oyster industry wiped out by warm water.

Still going to snow tomorrow and I'm damned if there's been more than 3mm MAX of sea level rise. I was hoping for a metre, even 600mm would be good.

FKT

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3 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

And how about peaches, Mell. Have we seen yours? Please post linky. TIA

 

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36 minutes ago, random said:

There are lots of 'theories floating around' PA.  It's a problem.

Anyone who thinks that North Koreans are the only ones brainwashed, is brainwashed.

FWIW, I heard this from an interview with a NK diplomat who had defected to the US.  MSNBC.

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1 hour ago, random said:

There are lots of 'theories floating around' PA.  It's a problem.

Anyone who thinks that North Koreans are the only ones brainwashed, is brainwashed.

 

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1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

If Trump ordered a nuke I have to wonder whether the generals would let him do it.

  They may not be able to stop it. Nuclear weapons is the one area in which there is, for most of it, no chain of command. He picks up the "football" and the codes are sent directly to the silos and subs. It was structured this way due to the need for a 20 minute response to the spotting Rooskie missiles in the air. 

  The subs might not fire without obtaining some confirmation. The silos is another matter though. Those boys are just junior AF birdmen and are a world apart from the likes of boomer captains who are very senor officers, highly educated, trained and encouraged thinkers.

 

 

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1 hour ago, captpiratedog said:

 

So you believe everything you see on the interweb?  It could even be true, but you wouldn't know.

It doesn't matter what the NK do.  It's their country.  Pretty fucking funni how the US is all concerned about what happens there  ....  while their kissing buddies the Saudis are stoning and beheading women in the street for minor transgressions.

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1 hour ago, random said:

It doesn't matter what the NK do.  It's their country.  Pretty fucking funni how the US is all concerned about what happens there  ....  while their kissing buddies the Saudis are stoning and beheading women in the street for minor transgressions.

We're only concerned about what happens to poor countries and countries not receiving us aid.   Saidi, China, they ain't poor.   Afghanistan, Saudi, Isreal get US aid.   We think of them as our boys, so they get a pass. 

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2 hours ago, random said:

So you believe everything you see on the interweb? 

Well not everything. There is lots of bullshit out there.

ae911-truth-no-longer-an-option-header.jpg

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And from north of the 49th, Canadians are getting their beavers all in a row, ready for anything the phat phriend across the way has in store for them.

In other words... .png

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North Korean state news has just issued this statement from Kim Jong-un  in response to Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull's condemnation of the latest Bomb test.

'The people of North Korea will not stand for such impertinence from Australia and will take what ever action it feels necessary to stop these vial attacks, even if it means flying missiles over German airspace to Bomb Vienna.' 

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4 hours ago, random said:

 

It doesn't matter what the NK do.  It's their country.  Pretty fucking funni how the US is all concerned about what happens there  ....  while their kissing buddies the Saudis are stoning and beheading women in the street for minor transgressions.

true that. again. 

america is a bit of a petulant cunt, but what's new?

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16 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

A guy at work who is a Hannity-bot said the other day "you have to be glad it isn't Hillary, you know she wouldn't be doing anything about this NK shit". I just let the statement lie there unchallenged due to not knowing for sure what Trump was doing outside of twitter. Anyone want to defend his statement for me?

He's way wrong. She never saw an opportunity to play world policeman that she didn't like.

15 hours ago, badlatitude said:

When they give me my own 747 and a military attache with nuke access, I'll make decisions. Until then, I get to criticize the severe lack of decision making by our president.

OK, hope you don't mind if I cheer if he responds to a vague call to DO SOMETHING by instead doing nothing. I doubt it will happen. He's much more like Hillary in this regard than you're ready to admit.

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so how big a hole will this new bomb make in cascadia?

how will cascadia respond?  will their ally canada join them in a counter attack, eh?

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29 minutes ago, hermetic said:

so how big a hole will this new bomb make in cascadia?

how will cascadia respond?  will their ally canada join them in a counter attack, eh?

Cascadia is at the mercy of the world, the gutless American President has already shown that he is afraid of his own shadow and will do nothing.

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11 minutes ago, badlatitude said:
44 minutes ago, hermetic said:

so how big a hole will this new bomb make in cascadia?

how will cascadia respond?  will their ally canada join them in a counter attack, eh?

Cascadia is at the mercy of the world, the gutless American President has already shown that he is afraid of his own shadow and will do nothing.

no shit

but if the bomb falls a couple of hundred mile short, think of the surfing possibilities

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1 minute ago, hermetic said:

no shit

but if the bomb falls a couple of hundred mile short, think of the surfing possibilities

LOL, sounds good but I'm not so sure about the fallout.

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2 minutes ago, badlatitude said:
5 minutes ago, hermetic said:

no shit

but if the bomb falls a couple of hundred mile short, think of the surfing possibilities

LOL, sounds good but I'm not so sure about the fallout.

santa ana's

they'll help with the backwash as well

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3 minutes ago, hermetic said:

santa ana's

they'll help with the backwash as well

What about the fallout in the water? Beaches that glow at night sounds cool but is not healthy.

Besides, we have enough trouble right now.

DI0CVgYUMAATqOU.jpg

sf-smoke-sep2-modis.jpg

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"South Korea says it has seen indications that the North is preparing more missile launches, possibly an intercontinental ballistic missile. It said it was strengthening its controversial US-made Thaad missile defence system after the North's test of a nuclear bomb at the weekend. The South has carried out live-fire exercises in response to the test. 
(snip) 

What has the South said? Chang Kyung-soo, a defence ministry official, told parliament: "We have continued to see signs of possibly more ballistic missile launches. We also forecast North Korea could fire an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM)." No timeframe was given for any launches but this Saturday, the anniversary of the foundation of the North's regime, or 10 October, the establishment of the ruling Workers' Party of Korea, were possible dates. 

The ministry also told parliament the US would seek to deploy a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier to seas off the peninsula. It said it would temporarily deploy four more launchers of the US Thaad (Terminal High-Altitude Area Defence) missile defence system to join the two already at the site in Seongju, south of Seoul."

 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41144356

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Just heard on NPR that Steve Mnuchin has written a policy for Trump stating that we will not trade with anyone who also trades with N. Korea. This includes China, which the reporter says would be very difficult for us to halt all trade with.  Interesting times ahead, hold onto your hats.

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21 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

What about the fallout in the water? Beaches that glow at night sounds cool but is not healthy.

Besides, we have enough trouble right now.

 

sf-smoke-sep2-modis.jpg

looks like dabs is safe

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1 hour ago, hermetic said:

looks like dabs is safe

The whole state is on fire, I hope his forested area stays safe, he's too old to endure that kind of tragedy.

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what are the chances that charle hebdo creates a cover that shows antifa on fire?

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2 hours ago, hermetic said:

what are the chances that charle hebdo creates a cover that shows antifa on fire?

Hypocritically low.

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https://www.yahoo.com/news/north-koreans-apos-eat-grass-135156269.html

 

Looks like Vlad's got the right of it.

--------------------

"Using the missile and nuclear defense threats as a means to deter, according to Putin, is how the North avoids the fate of former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. The Russian leader, a former head of his country’s intelligence services, also said that sanctions, like those put in place against the North’s economy last month by the United Nations Security Council, are “useless and ineffective.”

“Saddam Hussein rejected the production of weapons of mass destruction, but even under that pretense, he was destroyed and members of his family were killed,” Putin said at the BRICS summit, which brings together Brazil, India, China and South Africa.

Putin added, “The country was demolished, and Saddam Hussein was hanged. Everyone knows that, and everyone in North Korea knows that."

--------------

"“They will eat grass, but they will not turn away from the path that will provide for their security,” Putin said, according to CNN."

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14 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/north-koreans-apos-eat-grass-135156269.html

 

Looks like Vlad's got the right of it.

--------------------

"Using the missile and nuclear defense threats as a means to deter, according to Putin, is how the North avoids the fate of former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. The Russian leader, a former head of his country’s intelligence services, also said that sanctions, like those put in place against the North’s economy last month by the United Nations Security Council, are “useless and ineffective.”

“Saddam Hussein rejected the production of weapons of mass destruction, but even under that pretense, he was destroyed and members of his family were killed,” Putin said at the BRICS summit, which brings together Brazil, India, China and South Africa.

Putin added, “The country was demolished, and Saddam Hussein was hanged. Everyone knows that, and everyone in North Korea knows that."

--------------

"“They will eat grass, but they will not turn away from the path that will provide for their security,” Putin said, according to CNN."

Yep.

 

So MAD is likely the answer. 

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2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Yep.

 

So MAD is likely the answer. 

 

Pretty much.

Either negotiate something both parties can live with or bite the bullet and annihilate the regime before they get any further.

 

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35 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

 

Pretty much.

Either negotiate something both parties can live with or bite the bullet and annihilate the regime before they get any further.

 

We'll be right back where we started the first time intelligence says they are selling bombs/plutonium/plans to al Qaeda.

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16 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

We'll be right back where we started the first time intelligence says they are selling bombs/plutonium/plans to al Qaeda.

Yup, that's true.

So again, you have to decide if can you live with that possibility and rely on your ability to shut down al Qaeda before they can do something nasty or do you have to cut it off at the source.

If the answer is that you can't live with that possibility, then you get back to root causes.  If it's war, then get it done with.  I agree with Putin.  Kim will make his people live on mud and grass before he'll give up his nukes UNLESS he gets some sort of guarantee from the the Chinese that they'll fight to the death to protect his right to be a dick and even then, i'm not sure he'll believe them.

 

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Just now, cmilliken said:

Yup, that's true.

So again, you have to decide if can you live with that possibility and rely on your ability to shut down al Qaeda before they can do something nasty or do you have to cut it off at the source.

If the answer is that you can't live with that possibility, then you get back to root causes.  If it's war, then get it done with.  I agree with Putin.  Kim will make his people live on mud and grass before he'll give up his nukes UNLESS he gets some sort of guarantee from the the Chinese that they'll fight to the death to protect his right to be a dick and even then, i'm not sure he'll believe them.

 

hmm, maybe a division or 2 of chinese troops at the 38th, and he turns over the nukes?

 

Of course, he probably doesn't trust the chinese either.

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Just now, cmilliken said:

Yup, that's true.

So again, you have to decide if can you live with that possibility and rely on your ability to shut down al Qaeda before they can do something nasty or do you have to cut it off at the source.

If the answer is that you can't live with that possibility, then you get back to root causes.  If it's war, then get it done with.  I agree with Putin.  Kim will make his people live on mud and grass before he'll give up his nukes UNLESS he gets some sort of guarantee from the the Chinese that they'll fight to the death to protect his right to be a dick and even then, i'm not sure he'll believe them.

 

The other problem is that now that they have miniaturized the nuke they can isolate it in lead and other concealments, load it into a container and ship it anywhere. I wouldn't underestimate Kim Jong Un's ability to do exactly that. It will force Trump to the table, or to war. The thing that bothers me is the question, did this miniaturization occur with help or are his scientists that capable? If Russia or China helped what is their end game?

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8 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

The other problem is that now that they have miniaturized the nuke they can isolate it in lead and other concealments, load it into a container and ship it anywhere. I wouldn't underestimate Kim Jong Un's ability to do exactly that. It will force Trump to the table, or to war. The thing that bothers me is the question, did this miniaturization occur with help or are his scientists that capable? If Russia or China helped what is their end game?

Scintillation and mass spec is sensitive enough to pick up the signature of weaponized fuel, even just a far wing of the stuff through lead. It can pick up lead shielding too, it would stick out like a sore thumb. Anyone smart enough to build a nuke wouldn't be dumb enough to send it out into the world like that, unless they fit it with some kind of deadman switch, but that wouldn't have much political leverage.

I doubt they have that capability, and I doubt they're dumb enough to try something like that, but if they did try a bonehead move like that, I am confident it would be detected.

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Just now, mikewof said:

Scintillation and mass spec is sensitive enough to pick up the signature of weaponized fuel, even just a far wing of the stuff through lead. It can pick up lead too, it would stick out like a sore thumb. 

I doubt they have that capability, but if they did try a bonehead move like that, I am confident it would be detected.

Yes, Mike, we put a lot of confidence in those devices, but that wouldn't stop a sub and a boat from making a drop, the cartels do it quite successfully all the time. Add a small plane to avoid detection, and voila, an event for the ages.

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1 hour ago, cmilliken said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/north-koreans-apos-eat-grass-135156269.html

 

Looks like Vlad's got the right of it.

--------------------

"Using the missile and nuclear defense threats as a means to deter, according to Putin, is how the North avoids the fate of former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. The Russian leader, a former head of his country’s intelligence services, also said that sanctions, like those put in place against the North’s economy last month by the United Nations Security Council, are “useless and ineffective.”

“Saddam Hussein rejected the production of weapons of mass destruction, but even under that pretense, he was destroyed and members of his family were killed,” Putin said at the BRICS summit, which brings together Brazil, India, China and South Africa.

Putin added, “The country was demolished, and Saddam Hussein was hanged. Everyone knows that, and everyone in North Korea knows that."

--------------

"“They will eat grass, but they will not turn away from the path that will provide for their security,” Putin said, according to CNN."

I agree with most of what you said.  The invasion of Iraq damaged US standing and its credibility.  If I was Iran or N. Korea I would want a credible deterrent. 

But two things seem to muck up the waters here regarding N. Korea.  First, with Seoul in range of thousands of NORK artillery, the NORKs could kill thousands, if not tens of thousands of civilians in minutes.  So, they already have a pretty good deterrent.

Secondly, why are the NORKs goading and taunting an irrational, unhinged leader- Trump?  Lil chubby Kim isn't the wild card here, Trump is.  The more they poke him the more likely he will do something unhinged.  Seems like the best thing for them to do is to quietly develop their nukes like Israel and S. Africa did. 

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10 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Yes, Mike, we put a lot of confidence in those devices, but that wouldn't stop a sub and a boat from making a drop, the cartels do it quite successfully all the time. Add a small plane to avoid detection, and voila, an event for the ages.

That sounds like terrorism. Kim is an autocrat and an arms dealer, he is not a terrorist. And given his existing customer base with Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, China, Malaysia and Burma, he would be nuts to do any business with terrorists. He has a lucrative business, why screw that up by dealing with terrorists? Yes, I know what the intelligence says, I think it's as wrong as Saddam's yellowcake.

He's building a workable bridge to negotiation, not a doomsday device.

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5 minutes ago, Clove Hitch said:

 Seems like the best thing for them to do is to quietly develop their nukes like Israel and S. Africa did. 

I think more like Pakistan than Israel or South Africa. General Zia seems to be Kim's template in his nuke plans. He's not doing it quietly like Israel and he's not building in an ejection seat like de Klerk.

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5 minutes ago, mikewof said:

That sounds like terrorism. Kim is an autocrat and an arms dealer, he is not a terrorist. And given his existing customer base with Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, China, Malaysia and Burma, he would be nuts to do any business with terrorists. He has a lucrative business, why screw that up by dealing with terrorists? Yes, I know what the intelligence says, I think it's as wrong as Saddam's yellowcake.

He's building a workable bridge to negotiation, not a doomsday device.

Well, considering how many relatives he has executed for flimsy reasons, I can't give him major creds for anything. I would be a lot more comfortable if China removed him and made an attempt to reunite the peninsula, which won't happen, but we can still dream nice things can't we?

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34 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

The other problem is that now that they have miniaturized the nuke they can isolate it in lead and other concealments, load it into a container and ship it anywhere. I wouldn't underestimate Kim Jong Un's ability to do exactly that. It will force Trump to the table, or to war. The thing that bothers me is the question, did this miniaturization occur with help or are his scientists that capable? If Russia or China helped what is their end game?

FWIW, I don't think he's actually miniaturized anything yet.  I think that's aspirational - mostly because I don't think the North Koreans have the hardened electronics capability yet.  That, itself, was non-trivial and I don't see the North being that sophisticated in electronics or we'd be buying NOXCON smartphone knockoffs.  That's a ROMA estimate by the way :)

Just like his "ICBM can reach the mainland!" test was pretty much debunked by MIT.  

He's demonstrating capability that's improving but he's not there yet.

I think he's pushing really hard for economic trade and to get us to stop flaunting military exercises so he can go back to pretending to be BMOC on the peninsula.

And yes, even a limited attack could result in a million+ dead Koreans, on both sides of the border.

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1 minute ago, cmilliken said:

FWIW, I don't think he's actually miniaturized anything yet.  I think that's aspirational - mostly because I don't think the North Koreans have the hardened electronics capability yet.  That, itself, was non-trivial and I don't see the North being that sophisticated in electronics or we'd be buying NOXCON smartphone knockoffs.  That's a ROMA estimate by the way :)

Just like his "ICBM can reach the mainland!" test was pretty much debunked by MIT.  

He's demonstrating capability that's improving but he's not there yet.

I think he's pushing really hard for economic trade and to get us to stop flaunting military exercises so he can go back to pretending to be BMOC on the peninsula.

And yes, even a limited attack could result in a million+ dead Koreans, on both sides of the border.

I can get behind all of that, I still prefer a regime change, North Korea cannot advance as a military dictatorship.

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33 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Well, considering how many relatives he has executed for flimsy reasons, I can't give him major creds for anything. I would be a lot more comfortable if China removed him and made an attempt to reunite the peninsula, which won't happen, but we can still dream nice things can't we?

I have no idea how much disinformation (from them and us) we're getting about those high profile political executions, and I'm not even sure that it matters. The Amnesty reports about the "mass market" executions, torture and imprisonment are sufficiently damning, even if they are only halfway accurate.  I'm not giving him credit, rather just making note that they are not "terroristic" in their methods, but rather seem to be following an old school military dictatorship template. Zia path is noticeably similar.

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3 minutes ago, mikewof said:

I have no idea how much disinformation (from them and us) we're getting about those high profile political executions, and I'm not even sure that it matters. The Amnesty reports about the "mass market" executions, torture and imprisonment are sufficiently damning, even if they are only halfway accurate.  I'm not giving him credit, rather just making note that they are not "terroristic" in their methods, but rather seem to be following an old school military dictatorship template. Zia path is noticeably similar.

I guess we'll have to see how it turns out, it will be beyond interesting.

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Maybe we should face up to the fact that we can't control everything on the planet. I'd be OK with annexing the western hemisphere, while we still can, and face the fact that countries in the east have every right to their own self-determination.

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2 hours ago, cmilliken said:

FWIW, I don't think he's actually miniaturized anything yet.  I think that's aspirational - mostly because I don't think the North Koreans have the hardened electronics capability yet.  That, itself, was non-trivial and I don't see the North being that sophisticated in electronics or we'd be buying NOXCON smartphone knockoffs.  That's a ROMA estimate by the way :)

Just like his "ICBM can reach the mainland!" test was pretty much debunked by MIT.  

He's demonstrating capability that's improving but he's not there yet.

I think he's pushing really hard for economic trade and to get us to stop flaunting military exercises so he can go back to pretending to be BMOC on the peninsula.

And yes, even a limited attack could result in a million+ dead Koreans, on both sides of the border.

The electronics do not have to be terribly sophisticated, c. We had thermonuclear ICBM's in the 50's, rudimentary transistors and tubes. Ten years before the simple computers such as the one in the LEM on Apollo 11. Slide rules still ruled! The miniaturization of this era allows for MIRVs, but that level is not required for onesies.  

 Horseshoes, hand grenades...you know the drill.

 

 

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7 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Well, considering how many relatives he has executed for flimsy reasons, I can't give him major creds for anything. I would be a lot more comfortable if China removed him and made an attempt to reunite the peninsula, which won't happen, but we can still dream nice things can't we?

The peninsula was reunited a few decades ago. It was the us which re-partitioned it.

China is not planning to remove him. Most of their public language on teh topic has revolved around how US Boots on the Ground will not be permitted.

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 It will be politically very difficult to initiate this war without South Korea signing off on it. Unless China and Russia both agree that there must be military action what the Sorks decide is likely to be what Trump's handlers do or don't do, assuming they can maintain a handle on him. I believe Mattis, Kelly, and Dunford will be willing to resign before doing anything real stupid. 

 

   

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48 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

The peninsula was reunited a few decades ago. It was the us which re-partitioned it.

China is not planning to remove him. Most of their public language on teh topic has revolved around how US Boots on the Ground will not be permitted.

Yes, I don't understand China's end game I imagine in time it will be clearer.

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Imagine, China has to make a call on whether to support American demands on North Korea, or their Asian neighbours, the ones they share a border with and who are almost totally dependant on them for goods. 

Do they support the country standing up to the Great White Satan, or side with the white guys?  

Mmmmm.

Hint: Who did China support last time?

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18 hours ago, badlatitude said:

I can get behind all of that, I still prefer a regime change, North Korea cannot advance as a military dictatorship.

This is why the cartoon with Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown is still funny.

One of these times, we've got to get this re-regiming thing right, huh?

At least this time, there's an obvious government to support after the re-regiming: the S Korean government.

Assuming China wants S. Korea for a neighbor. They haven't given any sign of wanting that. I think their end game is to avoid that outcome.

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Can anyone cite what Obama did to stop the Norks building missiles?

Anything would be nice even a simple "Fuck it" while he was playing golf

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1 hour ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

Can anyone cite what Obama did to stop the Norks building missiles?

Anything would be nice even a simple "Fuck it" while he was playing golf

President Bill Clinton

Soon after Clinton took office in 1994, North Korea threatened to abandon its commitment to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty behind. North Korea refused an international inspection related to the treaty. This led the Clinton administration to seek to bring the nation back into the fold.

Former President Jimmy Carter was secretly sent to Pyongyang to pave the way for a diplomatic agreement.

Clinton’s administration successfully established a deal known as the Joint Framework Agreement which offered $4 billion worth of nuclear, energy, economic and diplomatic benefits in exchange for the halting of North Korea’s nuclear program in 1994. The deal also included two light-water nuclear reactors, which were believed to be more difficult to use to make weapons than Pyongyang’s plutonium reactor.

The International Atomic Energy Agency was set to oversee all of this and do routine inspections.

"This agreement will help achieve a longstanding and vital American objective -- an end to the threat of nuclear proliferation on the Korean Peninsula,” Clinton said at the time.

President George W. Bush

Bush famously named North Korea as one part of the three-part “axis of evil” with Iraq and Iran in his State of the Union speech as president in 2002.

“North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens,” he said.

Later that year, the country confirmed what Bush said by admitting it had been secretly conducting a nuclear-weapons program for several years and proceeded to withdraw from its agreement with the Clinton administration shortly thereafter.

By 2004, U.S. officials believed North Korea had developed between two and eight nuclear weapons.

The Six-Party Talks” comprising China, North Korea, Japan, Russia, South Korea and the U.S. began in 2003 and continued over a number of years until 2009 under President Obama. In 2005, the group offeredsome energy and economic assistance if North Korea would give up its renewed efforts to build up its nuclear program, which Pyongyang tentatively agreed to.

But that plan didn’t really hold and North Korea said it had successfully completed a nuclear test in 2006. In 2007, an agreement was reached to send $400 million worth of fuel, food and other aid in exchange for North Korea shutting down its main nuclear reactor.

Just before leaving office, Bush sent a personal letter to leader Kim Jong Il asking him to uphold his end of the bargain.

President Barack Obama

Obama had to deal with a nuclear test by North Korea in mid-2009. The U.N. Security Council quickly adopted sanctions banning arms transfers to and from the country.

Obama sent an envoy to North Korea at the end of the year, asking leader Kim Jong Il to begin denuclearization talks, but his regime didn’t make any major moves toward pursuing them.

Some more progress was made in 2012 when new leader Kim Jong Un agreed to halt nuclear tests in exchange for food aid.

North Korea’s pursuit of nuclear weapons continued, however.

Obama’s administration put the ball in North Korea’s court by outlining conditions it required before diplomatic negotiations could occur, but Jong Un’s regime has maintained for years that its nuclear program is necessary for defense.

He went as far as to threaten the “military might” of the U.S. in 2014 as debates over true capabilities of the North continued.

Last September, after yet another nuclear test, Obama said the U.N. and members of the original “Six-Party Talks” would “vigorously implement” those resolutions and that there were “consequences” for North Korea’s actions.

Before Obama left office, the U.S. led the U.N. Security Council to imposed sanctions on North Korea in November meant to slash its coal exports by 60 percent.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-north-korea-obama-past-presidents-20170810-htmlstory.html

 

President Donald Trump

Still waiting to appoint an Ambassador to South Korea, made threats, pounded tables, nothing new to report.

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16 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Yes, I don't understand China's end game I imagine in time it will be clearer.

China's actions have been consistent with a desire and expectation at some point the Norks will make the same transition they did. Mao's China of the 60's and early 70's was every bit as nuts. The Norks are the rump-end of the Stalinistical version of communism and China knows that shit doesn't work well. Several factors have allowed it to stick around for the Norks, abetted much by geography, but in time they should come around. It is highly likely the Norks have already privately admitted to themselves they can not remain their people's sole source of information much longer. 

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18 hours ago, random said:

Hint: Who did China support last time?

Also, who do they have a mutual defense treaty with.
Since 1961.

Which makes the idea of launching a "preventive" war even more interesting.
Even ignoring the slight problem that a preventive war with a nation that already has nuclear weapons is just plain old nuclear war...

 A few weeks ago, after the 4th of July ICBM test, China officially stated that they'll come to the aid of NK of NK is attacked. The next and under reported part was that they won't aid NK if NK started it. - That is apparently new and something they never said before openly. So there is some movement on their side.

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Yep.  The USA is bluffing.  Lying to its own people and the world.  Both Russia and China fought the US in the Korean War. 

Too bad Saddam didn't have WOMDs and a defence treaty with Russia. 

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That is probably the moment for a reminder why each and every time the US says disarmament NK says Libya.
A certain US administration heralded the WMD disarmament of Libya (and accompanying security guaranties) as a great showcase why NK should get rid of it's WMD too. After all even Khadafy had no more need for them and is perfectly safe without them. NK watchers say the US pushed that argument hard at the time.

Well, that gift still keeps giving...
Order of operations matters. 

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6 hours ago, Chasm said:

That is probably the moment for a reminder why each and every time the US says disarmament NK says Libya.
A certain US administration heralded the WMD disarmament of Libya (and accompanying security guaranties) as a great showcase why NK should get rid of it's WMD too. After all even Khadafy had no more need for them and is perfectly safe without them. NK watchers say the US pushed that argument hard at the time.

Well, that gift still keeps giving...
Order of operations matters. 

The Norks cited Libya? I missed that. The stuff Libya had was but a pile of junk they had no idea what to do with, they were as far away from having a bomb as Somalia, practically speaking.  Anywho, the key is actually that the Norks have put several decades and billions into this program, to end it would be suicidal for even the Dear Leader. The Chinese and Rooskies are utterly convinced of that and their statements and actions strongly indicate they believe the best COA is to accept a new nuclear state into the club. No doubt there can be concessions to be gained from the Norks in exchange for that. Limitation treaties, and such. 

 As I mentioned before it would be extremely difficult to start this war without the Sorks signing off on it, as they are the ones in the firing line. Trump's hissy-fit at the leader of Sorkistan last week strongly indicates that guy told him NFW. 

Saw Chris Hill on the Daily Show last night say the Nork's plan is to take over the South. He is an expert on the Korea situation so there was no excuse for him not mentioning the content of the first plenary meeting of the Norks after Lil' Kim came to power: To begin a transition away from that ridiculous million-man army/economy behind a nuclear shield.

 A very risky strategy for Lil' Kim. The military runs the place, and promising a large RIF there is promising to make a lot of comfortable officers peasants. Being a peasant in Norkistan is no joke.  He can't back down, they would use that as an excuse to kill him for sure. 

  

 

 

 

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Being a dictator sounds like even less fun than being President of the US. How do they get anyone to take the job?

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On ‎7‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 1:21 AM, badlatitude said:

President Bill Clinton

Soon after Clinton took office in 1994, North Korea threatened to abandon its commitment to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty behind. North Korea refused an international inspection related to the treaty. This led the Clinton administration to seek to bring the nation back into the fold.

Former President Jimmy Carter was secretly sent to Pyongyang to pave the way for a diplomatic agreement.

Clinton’s administration successfully established a deal known as the Joint Framework Agreement which offered $4 billion worth of nuclear, energy, economic and diplomatic benefits in exchange for the halting of North Korea’s nuclear program in 1994. The deal also included two light-water nuclear reactors, which were believed to be more difficult to use to make weapons than Pyongyang’s plutonium reactor.

The International Atomic Energy Agency was set to oversee all of this and do routine inspections.

"This agreement will help achieve a longstanding and vital American objective -- an end to the threat of nuclear proliferation on the Korean Peninsula,” Clinton said at the time.

President George W. Bush

Bush famously named North Korea as one part of the three-part “axis of evil” with Iraq and Iran in his State of the Union speech as president in 2002.

“North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens,” he said.

Later that year, the country confirmed what Bush said by admitting it had been secretly conducting a nuclear-weapons program for several years and proceeded to withdraw from its agreement with the Clinton administration shortly thereafter.

By 2004, U.S. officials believed North Korea had developed between two and eight nuclear weapons.

The Six-Party Talks” comprising China, North Korea, Japan, Russia, South Korea and the U.S. began in 2003 and continued over a number of years until 2009 under President Obama. In 2005, the group offeredsome energy and economic assistance if North Korea would give up its renewed efforts to build up its nuclear program, which Pyongyang tentatively agreed to.

But that plan didn’t really hold and North Korea said it had successfully completed a nuclear test in 2006. In 2007, an agreement was reached to send $400 million worth of fuel, food and other aid in exchange for North Korea shutting down its main nuclear reactor.

Just before leaving office, Bush sent a personal letter to leader Kim Jong Il asking him to uphold his end of the bargain.

President Barack Obama

Obama had to deal with a nuclear test by North Korea in mid-2009. The U.N. Security Council quickly adopted sanctions banning arms transfers to and from the country.

Obama sent an envoy to North Korea at the end of the year, asking leader Kim Jong Il to begin denuclearization talks, but his regime didn’t make any major moves toward pursuing them.

Some more progress was made in 2012 when new leader Kim Jong Un agreed to halt nuclear tests in exchange for food aid.

North Korea’s pursuit of nuclear weapons continued, however.

Obama’s administration put the ball in North Korea’s court by outlining conditions it required before diplomatic negotiations could occur, but Jong Un’s regime has maintained for years that its nuclear program is necessary for defense.

He went as far as to threaten the “military might” of the U.S. in 2014 as debates over true capabilities of the North continued.

Last September, after yet another nuclear test, Obama said the U.N. and members of the original “Six-Party Talks” would “vigorously implement” those resolutions and that there were “consequences” for North Korea’s actions.

Before Obama left office, the U.S. led the U.N. Security Council to imposed sanctions on North Korea in November meant to slash its coal exports by 60 percent.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-north-korea-obama-past-presidents-20170810-htmlstory.html

 

President Donald Trump

Still waiting to appoint an Ambassador to South Korea, made threats, pounded tables, nothing new to report.

So it's Clinton and Carters fault?

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28 minutes ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

So it's Clinton and Carters fault?

Every president with the exception of George H.W. Bush, tried to do something about North Korea. If I was assigning blame (and I am not) Bush the elder had the best opportunity and did nothing.

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18 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Being a dictator sounds like even less fun than being President of the US. How do they get anyone to take the job?

PBS did an exceptional job in producing a full-movie of Richard III this last year, three full movies actually, IIRC. Since they were making a movie and wouldn't be stuck doing the same damn play for months and months, the usual drill for Shakespeare, they managed to get top drawer acting damn near top to bottom. Check it out. 

 

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What are the chances that South Korea has already restarted their abandoned secret retaliatory nuke program? Covert enough not to screw with their NPT compliance, but capable enough to pop out of the bag if they ever need a deterrent?

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

What are the chances that South Korea has already restarted their abandoned secret retaliatory nuke program? Covert enough not to screw with their NPT compliance, but capable enough to pop out of the bag if they ever need a deterrent?

I'd bet on that and double down on Japan doing the same.

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The genie is taking his time crawling fully out of his bottle, but it's probably just a matter of time. 

 

 Seems to me this might be a good opportunity to improve ICBM defenses. I would suggest burying it within a mostly honest program to produce a viable anti-asteroid defense system to dodge the treaty issues. Mother Earth herself has to applaud that, and the weapons that can do that have to be kissin' cousins to those which hit much closer and slower targets. 

 

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

What are the chances that South Korea has already restarted their abandoned secret retaliatory nuke program? Covert enough not to screw with their NPT compliance, but capable enough to pop out of the bag if they ever need a deterrent?

Deterrent?  What deterrent?  Why do the sorkies need a deterrent when the US would turn the north into a glass ashtray at the first hint of an a nuke attack?  Why spend the money when they can use it to build more flat screen TVs to sell to the US?

And how do you have a "covert" program with no way to test and develop the delivery systems?  It's one thing to test Nuke fission or fusion in a lab running computer simulations.  Its hard to test the capability of a IRBM and a reentry vehicle solely in a lab.  

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w0w so many here are convinced nothing is being done

Demall here  must have sum sum super doooper intel clearance to know exactly what is not being done.

 

w0w wEE

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It's hard to believe how fucking mind-controlled you cunts are.

Kim has done well here.  He has Nukes to prevent any country from attacking them.  It works.

Russia and China assisted NK last time and they will again if necessary.  The US has has lost this one.  The ramifications of military action are too terrible to risk this time including the loss of SK to the north in the long term.

Relax and think of England.

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Its called blowback, and unfortunately its NRA logic, hes gots gun, you get a gun.....guns make people safer. Now that Kims got a gun, how do you like them apples?

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26 minutes ago, random said:

It's hard to believe how fucking mind-controlled you cunts are.

Kim has done well here.  He has Nukes to prevent any country from attacking them.  It works.

Russia and China assisted NK last time and they will again if necessary.  The US has has lost this one.  The ramifications of military action are too terrible to risk this time including the loss of SK to the north in the long term.

Relax and think of England.

Sure.  But where you might be wrong is that lil chubby Kim is poking an irrational, unhinged leader- Trump. 

The so-called President is not a logical nor intelligent person.  Several MDs have already noted signs of dementia/Alzheimer's in Trump (e.g. deterioration of syntax).   And he has nukes.   And as the investigation into Trump's connections with Russia intensifies, Trump might decide it's time to wag the dog .   

So, sure, N Korea gets to have nukes- but would you play chicken with an irrational person as the early states of dementia coii in his mushy brain?   I wouldn't. 

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6 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Every president with the exception of George H.W. Bush, tried to do something about North Korea. If I was assigning blame (and I am not) Bush the elder had the best opportunity and did nothing.

If Truman had let MacArthur nuke the Chinese we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Just sayin'...

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You can get anything you want

at Alice's Restaurant

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1 minute ago, Clove Hitch said:

So, sure, N Korea gets to have nukes- but would you play chicken with an irrational person as the early states of dementia coil in his mushy brain?   I wouldn't. 

I wouldn't either.   I would like to think that the US Military has considered that too.  But I'm probably wrong.

NK has no choice now except continue to assume that nuke policy that has worked for every other country, will work for them.  It should.  All they want is to be treated like any other country, but the US is still smarting from not getting it's way in the 50s and cant let go.  The US cannot win here, China and the Russia are backing NK.

I was listening to a podcast yesterday about the analysis of video NK released on the supposed submarine launch of a missile.  They claimed that some of the underwater shots were actually of US testing, available on the net.

The remarkable thing about all this is the continuing US hypocrisy on another country doing just what they did to protect themselves.  If I was a dictator in a small country I would have done what they have done.  Those who tried to play nice with the US and the UN have been invaded and killed. 

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2 minutes ago, Mark K said:

If Truman had let MacArthur nuke the Chinese we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Just sayin'...

True dat!

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6 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Every president with the exception of George H.W. Bush, tried to do something about North Korea. If I was assigning blame (and I am not) Bush the elder had the best opportunity and did nothing.

Truman, for stopping MacArthur....

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4 minutes ago, Mark K said:

If Truman had let MacArthur nuke the Chinese we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Just sayin'...

Beat me to it...

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2 minutes ago, Mark K said:

If Truman had let MacArthur nuke the Chinese we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Just sayin'...

China is a big country and in the 50s still agricultural.  So which group of rice fields would he have nuked?

Vietnam was an easier target and we know how that turned out.

Just sayin ...

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5 minutes ago, random said:

China is a big country and in the 50s still agricultural.  So which group of rice fields would he have nuked?

Vietnam was an easier target and we know how that turned out.

Just sayin ...

Those who don't understand history....

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Deterrent?  What deterrent?  Why do the sorkies need a deterrent when the US would turn the north into a glass ashtray at the first hint of an a nuke attack?  Why spend the money when they can use it to build more flat screen TVs to sell to the US?

And how do you have a "covert" program with no way to test and develop the delivery systems?  It's one thing to test Nuke fission or fusion in a lab running computer simulations.  Its hard to test the capability of a IRBM and a reentry vehicle solely in a lab.  

South Korea had a nuclear weapons program about 35 years ago or so, they abandoned it for NPT compliance. They maintained the "front half" of the program though until now, with uranium sourcing, enrichment and engineering. And they admitted to covert nuclear engineering to the IAEA about fifteen years ago ... that effectively violated their NPT compliance, but the IAEA didn't push the matter.

So to your questions ... answer why the above happened and then you might be able to answer your questions on your own.

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1 hour ago, random said:

It's hard to believe how fucking mind-controlled you cunts are.

Kim has done well here.  He has Nukes to prevent any country from attacking them.  It works.

Russia and China assisted NK last time and they will again if necessary.  The US has has lost this one.  The ramifications of military action are too terrible to risk this time including the loss of SK to the north in the long term.

Relax and think of England.

You're right, if the nature of warfare doesn't change. But warfare is changing now that the world is moving to population inversion, and workers are becoming more valuable than resources.

So if the future of warfare is economic warfare, which maintains infrastructure in a purely productive state, then North Korea's nuclear program could potentially weaken them to economic invasion while it simultaneously resists a border invasion. The question is though, would anyone have invaded them anyway? Given that their GDP per capita is an absolute nightmare (about $2k, versus nearly $30k for South Korea and about $10k for China and Russia) even without a single weapon on their border, in a population-inverted economy, they are a very, very unattractive place to physically invade, but a very, very attractive place to economically invade. Living through another twenty years of NPT sanctions as their private markets grow, an economic invasion becomes more and more likely. Will it come from China, Russia or South Korea? All three?

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21 minutes ago, mikewof said:

You're right, if the nature of warfare doesn't change. But warfare is changing now that the world is moving to population inversion, and workers are becoming more valuable than resources.

So if the future of warfare is economic warfare, which maintains infrastructure in a purely productive state, then North Korea's nuclear program could potentially weaken them to economic invasion while it simultaneously resists a border invasion. The question is though, would anyone have invaded them anyway? Given that their GDP per capita is an absolute nightmare (about $2k, versus nearly $30k for South Korea and about $10k for China and Russia) even without a single weapon on their border, in a population-inverted economy, they are a very, very unattractive place to physically invade, but a very, very attractive place to economically invade. Living through another twenty years of NPT sanctions as their private markets grow, an economic invasion becomes more and more likely. Will it come from China, Russia or South Korea? All three?

I completely agree.  Which is why I see the entire shit show as a US confrontation with China.

 

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1 hour ago, random said:

China is a big country and in the 50s still agricultural.  So which group of rice fields would he have nuked?

Vietnam was an easier target and we know how that turned out.

Just sayin ...

I said the Chinese, not China. 

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How many times can seemingly intelligent people buy this shit.  How many times do I have to point out that any political/strategic information fed to us through the 'news' services is mostly the complete opposite to the facts.  Why the fuck would you give away your only assets?

Intelligence services do not pass on the information they gather.  Why gather information then pass it on to your enemies?  Anything told to the US and Oz public, is bullshit or misleading at best.  Case in point is this NK shit.  Demonising the leader is a tried and true method, worked for Saddam and Omar, even stupid fucking Trump voters get that shit, while the real game is attempting to ring fence China.

If you want the best example?  Missile defence systems in SK FFS!  Do you really think that the Chinese see these as threatening to NK?  No, of course not.  They are designed to limit Chinese capabilities. 

So here we are, all the armchair fucking admirals playing the very game you were mind-controlled into.  Discussing the crumbs fed to you by your lying fucking government, how those people must laugh. 

 

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14 hours ago, mikewof said:

The question is though, would anyone have invaded them anyway? Given that their GDP per capita is an absolute nightmare (about $2k, versus nearly $30k for South Korea and about $10k for China and Russia) even without a single weapon on their border, in a population-inverted economy, they are a very, very unattractive place to physically invade, but a very, very attractive place to economically invade. Living through another twenty years of NPT sanctions as their private markets grow, an economic invasion becomes more and more likely. Will it come from China, Russia or South Korea? All three?

As much as it pains me to agree with woofers on this, he's right. There really is no reason to continue this charade. I said as much in a previous thread but I'll repeat:  

the best thing we could do to defeat the norkies is to declare peace. Go to Panmunjom, sign a peace treaty and declare this stupid war over. Withdraw all but a caretaker force of the US military. We tell Norkistan that we have no desire to bother them and we will leave them in peace. But tell them in No uncertain terms that if they so much as threaten us or their neighbors with nukes or conventional army - we will turn them into a glass ashtray. If they proliferate any NBC technology or material to unfriendly countries or to terrorists - we will turn them into glass. If they do much as set a toe over the DMZ without express permission from Sorkistan - glass. You get the picture. 

Norkistan becomes solely and utterly China's problem at that point as they wouldn't have the West to be their boogeyman anymore. Norkistan would likely implode within a decade and then Jhyna can clean up the mess. 

North Korea was ALWAYS about Jhyna and using this as an excuse to keep troops nearby their border. Personally I would go and kiss and makeup with Vietnam if we wanted to maintain a presence in SEA. If we removed this leverage point that Jhyna has over us, they would shit themselves.   Giving lil Kim a peace treaty would be the ultimate stick in the eye to china and get rid of the Norkistan issue at the same time. Win win. 

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12 hours ago, captpiratedog said:

Essentially true, but Syria and the PDRK don't have a heck of a lot of similarities. 

 Mostly I am responding to point out the Rooskies aren't buying the CW cover story distributed to Izzy-friendly sources. 

 https://southfront.org/israeli-troops-enter-militant-held-area-of-beer-ajam-in-golan-heights-reports/

 The Izzies may have a case of the ass over their plans for Syria to fall into utter chaos being dashed by Putin, which they imagine would be a lessor threat to them. They are very unhappy with Russia and this may be about trying to preserve that patch of land they have been allowing AQ-ish Jihadis to inhabit right through that war. Anybody who has been following the SITREPs knows that patch of Jihadistan right on the Izzy border. Anybody think that patch could have been there for four years unless the Izzies wanted it there is a fool. They still hold Hezb'allah to be a bigger threat than ISIL. In this they resemble Pakistan, which has managed to convince itself India is a bigger threat than Jihadis and hence help to create some who they dream they will always be able to control. The Saudis do that shit too, kindasorta. 

 Anywho, they feel compelled to needle the Bear. Perhaps simply to preserve their self-image. 

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6 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

As much as it pains me to agree with woofers on this, he's right. There really is no reason to continue this charade. I said as much in a previous thread but I'll repeat:  

the best thing we could do to defeat the norkies is to declare peace. Go to Panmunjom, sign a peace treaty and declare this stupid war over. Withdraw all but a caretaker force of the US military. We tell Norkistan that we have no desire to bother them and we will leave them in peace. But tell them in No uncertain terms that if they so much as threaten us or their neighbors with nukes or conventional army - we will turn them into a glass ashtray. If they proliferate any NBC technology or material to unfriendly countries or to terrorists - we will turn them into glass. If they do much as set a toe over the DMZ without express permission from Sorkistan - glass. You get the picture. 

Norkistan becomes solely and utterly China's problem at that point as they wouldn't have the West to be their boogeyman anymore. Norkistan would likely implode within a decade and then Jhyna can clean up the mess. 

North Korea was ALWAYS about Jhyna and using this as an excuse to keep troops nearby their border. Personally I would go and kiss and makeup with Vietnam if we wanted to maintain a presence in SEA. If we removed this leverage point that Jhyna has over us, they would shit themselves.   Giving lil Kim a peace treaty would be the ultimate stick in the eye to china and get rid of the Norkistan issue at the same time. Win win. 

Nice idea, but giving Kim a peace treaty assumes Kim wants one, does it not? AFAIK Kim maintains a strict refusal to acknowledge the existence of a "South Korea", just like his pappy and grandpappy did. The lot of them has so conditioned the Nork population to that notion it would be highly likely signing any agreement that recognizes SK as a legitimate state would be a signing of his own death warrant. 

  They prefer the existing hudna. 

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16 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Nice idea, but giving Kim a peace treaty assumes Kim wants one, does it not? AFAIK Kim maintains a strict refusal to acknowledge the existence of a "South Korea", just like his pappy and grandpappy did. The lot of them has so conditioned the Nork population to that notion it would be highly likely signing any agreement that recognizes SK as a legitimate state would be a signing of his own death warrant. 

  They prefer the existing hudna. 

And hence my point.  The Norks don't want peace any more than Jhyna does.  Doesn't serve their purpose.  And all the more reason to give it to them.  Would totally fuck with their minds.  They wouldn't know what to do with themselves.  

My point is we are doing nothing but feeding the norkistan paranoia.  If we walked away from it and said:  "OK you win, now what?"  They would come unglued from the inside.  

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44 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And hence my point.  The Norks don't want peace any more than Jhyna does.  Doesn't serve their purpose.  And all the more reason to give it to them.  Would totally fuck with their minds.  They wouldn't know what to do with themselves.  

My point is we are doing nothing but feeding the norkistan paranoia.  If we walked away from it and said:  "OK you win, now what?"  They would come unglued from the inside.  

The point is well taken, my only minor quibble was there has been a standing offer of a treaty all along. The norks want peace, or the wouldn't have mostly kept it for decades. They can't recognize that there are two Koreas yet is all. Taiwan/China. Israel and the entire neighborhood except Egypt, that kind of shit. There is no English word which encompasses that concept so I borrowed the Arabic hudna. They have so much experience in dealing with the shit-stew of not being able to bury the hatchet, but agreeing to let it be...for today. Maybe tomorrow...we'll see...

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