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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
axolotl

Dennis Pontificates

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Dennis has been on a local San Diego webcast promulgated by his friend Roger Harrington several times during this Cup cycle.  All well worth viewing (25+- minutes each) as he accurately predicted the course of events.  Today he's posted his thoughts on AC 36 with a few bombshells (monos, Oracle is out, American challenge by Chicago's DeVos),  well worth your time:
Specialty Produce Productions

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A good listen. Especially interesting - how much money Dennis thinks BA is creaming off of the AC. ;)

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52 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Don't see it. DeVos as in Betsy DeVos?

 

Yes, Richard Devos.  Dennis comments around -2:14 in the webcast.

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1 hour ago, surfsailor said:

Dennis sure is obsessed with money and 'profit'. ..

Noticed that. One senses a little undercurrent of bitterness in the way he carries on about Russell having made "more money than anyone else in the history (of the AC)", and Sir Ben "making lots and lots of money". It's almost as if he resents having had to manage his AC campaigns "on the cheap" while there's all the sponsorship money in the AC now. He states he would have been a lot more successful with more money, so he's got a point. And his comment on the "owner of Prada" whose wife a lots of money :) was priceless.

Interesting he lists 2 new potential Challenges in De Vos (USA) and Betrand (AUS) but doesn't mention Artemis.

Good to hear him - hope he's enjoying a comfortable retirement.

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1 hour ago, surfsailor said:

Dennis sure is obsessed with money and 'profit'. And for would be American fans, LE is a virtual 'Ghandi' of a human being compared to Richard Devos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_DeVos

Wrong Richard Devos.  That's a link to Dick Sr.  Dick Jr is rumored to be a challenger for AC36. 

Having said that, why does Dick Jr make Uncle Larry look like Ghandi?  More Trump hysteria? :lol:

WetHog :ph34r:

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58 minutes ago, Indio said:

Noticed that. One senses a little undercurrent of bitterness in the way he carries on about Russell having made "more money than anyone else in the history (of the AC)", and Sir Ben "making lots and lots of money". It's almost as if he resents having had to manage his AC campaigns "on the cheap" while there's all the sponsorship money in the AC now. He states he would have been a lot more successful with more money, so he's got a point. And his comment on the "owner of Prada" whose wife a lots of money :) was priceless.

Interesting he lists 2 new potential Challenges in De Vos (USA) and Betrand (AUS) but doesn't mention Artemis.

Good to hear him - hope he's enjoying a comfortable retirement.

Maybe he is talking about the money being more important than the AC itself, that yeah, he wished he could have raised more but the competition was more important than the money and getting rich. Sure, he did OK and lives pretty good but like older football, baseball, racecar drivers the money is lot bigger now than it was in the days of the guys who built the respective sport.

Before it was put a syndicate or funds to run a campaign and get paid enough to get by, now it is how big a contract can you get and make money as a career.

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5 hours ago, axolotl said:

Dennis has been on a local San Diego webcast promulgated by his friend Roger Harrington several times during this Cup cycle.  All well worth viewing (25+- minutes each) as he accurately predicted the course of events.  Today he's posted his thoughts on AC 36 with a few bombshells (monos, Oracle is out, American challenge by Chicago's DeVos),  well worth your time:
Specialty Produce Productions

Good link, interesting listen

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Amusing ramblings of an old man. Notice how he was struggling to remember names? "Bill" Butterworth? And he didn't even get close to "his good friend" who used to own North Sails (Tom Wi..., Tom Wi.... my good friend...).

I disagree with him on a number of things. He suggests that Emirates was paying "100's of millions of dollars". Even taking the last 2 cycles, I think it is pretty sure that the sponsorship was well below that (my ballpark would be $60m over the 2). His statement about Emirates not having a base in NZ is a bit of a distortion. It made me check and I hadn't realised just how many flights Emirates run each day out of Auckland. Add the international exposure of the AC and it probably does stack up for Emirates.  

To suggest that Ben Ainslie's motivation is money is very wide of the mark. It should be clear to even the most cynical that Ainslie has been obsessed with the AC for a long time and has taken "junior" positions in 3 different teams just to learn the ropes. I am sure he would be in next time whether he was making lots of money or not. As pointed out by others, there is no mention of Artemis and if Cammas is to be believed, Groupama are already in.

Regrettably, I would take anything said as being as wild speculation and it has no more validity than anything you will find on this forum.

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Love his comments about the French and team sports - "You don't see France with teams of 15 guys all working together to get across the line"

Except the fact that Rugby is one of the most popular and richest sports in France and is exactly that.

 

Amusing ramblings of an old man indeed.

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6 minutes ago, DeRosa said:

Love his comments about the French and team sports - "You don't see France with teams of 15 guys all working together to get across the line"

Except the fact that Rugby is one of the most popular and richest sports in France and is exactly that.

And Soccer if you include the substitutes.Their national team isn't too shabby either!

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30 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

To suggest that Ben Ainslie's motivation is money is very wide of the mark. It should be clear to even the most cynical that Ainslie has been obsessed with the AC for a long time and has taken "junior" positions in 3 different teams just to learn the ropes. I am sure he would be in next time whether he was making lots of money or not. As pointed out by others, there is no mention of Artemis and if Cammas is to be believed, Groupama are already in.

I don't have a problem if Sir Ben is making lots of money and anyone who begrudges him that needs to get a life. And I'm convinced that had Dalts pulled the trigger on Deano for Ben in Valencia in '07, we would have won. And we may never have had foiling cats.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

Amusing ramblings of an old man. Notice how he was struggling to remember names? "Bill" Butterworth? And he didn't even get close to "his good friend" who used to own North Sails (Tom Wi..., Tom Wi.... my good friend...).

I disagree with him on a number of things. He suggests that Emirates was paying "100's of millions of dollars". Even taking the last 2 cycles, I think it is pretty sure that the sponsorship was well below that (my ballpark would be $60m over the 2). His statement about Emirates not having a base in NZ is a bit of a distortion. It made me check and I hadn't realised just how many flights Emirates run each day out of Auckland. Add the international exposure of the AC and it probably does stack up for Emirates.  

To suggest that Ben Ainslie's motivation is money is very wide of the mark. It should be clear to even the most cynical that Ainslie has been obsessed with the AC for a long time and has taken "junior" positions in 3 different teams just to learn the ropes. I am sure he would be in next time whether he was making lots of money or not. As pointed out by others, there is no mention of Artemis and if Cammas is to be believed, Groupama are already in.

Regrettably, I would take anything said as being as wild speculation and it has no more validity than anything you will find on this forum.

All 'true' but it's an interesting AC perspective nevertheless. 

I posted a link somewhere to an earlier podcast by him, an 'AC 35 Wrapup' that was worth a listen too.

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21 minutes ago, Indio said:

I don't have a problem if Sir Ben is making lots of money and anyone who begrudges him that needs to get a life. And I'm convinced that had Dalts pulled the trigger on Deano for Ben in Valencia in '07, we would have won. And we may never have had foiling cats.

Please don't misunderstand my comments. I agree with you about the money. I have no issue with the team members making money. I also agree that Ben would have done a better job than Deano but I am not so sure he would have beaten Alinghi.

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5 hours ago, WetHog said:

Wrong Richard Devos.  That's a link to Dick Sr.  Dick Jr is rumored to be a challenger for AC36. 

Having said that, why does Dick Jr make Uncle Larry look like Ghandi?  More Trump hysteria? :lol:

WetHog :ph34r:

My bad. Dick Jr. mildly more palatable, his apparently clueless wife notwithstanding. He certainly has the dosh - and NO ONE expects the 'Michigan Inquisition', so he's got that going for him.

B)

 

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DC has the wrong DeVos.  Doug DeVos is the owner/helmsman of Quantum Sailing in the TP52 Super Series.  He is also the son of Dick DeVos Sr, the brother of Dick DeVos Jr and current CEO of Amway.  If a DeVos is forming a new challenger from the USA it stands to reason its Doug DeVos.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

Please don't misunderstand my comments. I agree with you about the money. I have no issue with the team members making money. I also agree that Ben would have done a better job than Deano but I am not so sure he would have beaten Alinghi.

The '07 ETNZ team was probably the most international sailing team they've had. there was Ben of course, Adam Beashel (AUS), and Terry Hutchinson & Kevin Hall (now living in Auckland with his family last time I checked).

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Jesus Christ that was hard to listen to, sounded like some old guy just rambling on, it could be much better if there was another person there with him for a bit of back and forth.

He seems wholly focussed on the money side of things and doesn't seem to have much idea regarding the teams/players either. As mentioned with DeVos by several others above,  he also referred to Frank Cammas as "Peyron" and makes note that there are no French teams on the TP52 circuit, Paprec Recyclage have been there for many yrs as well.

 

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16 hours ago, surfsailor said:

Dennis sure is obsessed with money and 'profit'. And for would be American fans, LE is a virtual 'Ghandi' of a human being compared to Richard Devos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_DeVos

devos is a far right psycho piece of s. really wish he wouldn't impose his stink.

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Perhaps my memory has come adrift, but wasn't it Dennis who ushered corporate (& big private) money into sailing? The America's Cup in particular. Recall the infamous Pepsi logo on the bottom of his boat's keel.  And (relatively) lots of $ in the AC the next time around.

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14 minutes ago, UNCIVILIZED said:

Perhaps my memory has come adrift, but wasn't it Dennis who ushered corporate (& big private) money into sailing? The America's Cup in particular. Recall the infamous Pepsi logo on the bottom of his boat's keel.  And (relatively) lots of $ in the AC the next time around.

Pretty sure the keel had a Budweiser logo. 

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

Pretty sure the keel had a Budweiser logo. 

Pics!

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4 hours ago, 3to1 said:

devos is a far right psycho piece of s. really wish he wouldn't impose his stink.

Link(s) to back that up?

WetHog  :ph34r:

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^ sure they're lead monsters, but there were some hard core battlewagons from AC '87 that were designed for breeze. especially Connor's boat.

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Know some people at Oracle and they have not been told, one way or another, where things are moving forward.  One thing for certain, though, is that Larry could spool up another challenge in a minute if he is inclined to do so.  Don't know if he is.

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6 hours ago, classfve said:

Know some people at Oracle and they have not been told, one way or another, where things are moving forward.  One thing for certain, though, is that Larry could spool up another challenge in a minute if he is inclined to do so.  Don't know if he is.

Still on the payroll then? 

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10 hours ago, classfve said:

Know some people at Oracle and they have not been told, one way or another, where things are moving forward.  One thing for certain, though, is that Larry could spool up another challenge in a minute if he is inclined to do so.  Don't know if he is.

Larry hasn't got a good AC record going through a Challenger Selection Series and with LR waiting to inflict payback, he might decide to call it a day...

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On 8/1/2017 at 7:22 AM, Indio said:

Larry hasn't got a good AC record going through a Challenger Selection Series and with LR waiting to inflict payback, he might decide to call it a day...

He made the Challenger finals his first go around in 2003 (out of 9 Challengers) and the semi's his 2nd in 2007 (out of 11 Challengers).  That actually a pretty good record if looked at objectively. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 0:19 PM, Monkey said:

 

IMG_3786.PNG

Are we certain that that keel doesn't have an appendage (wing) at the bottom, which would make it the Australian boat, right?

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1 minute ago, UNCIVILIZED said:

Are we certain that that keel doesn't have an appendage (wing) at the bottom, which would make it the Australian boat, right?

Stars & Stripes had a wing keel...

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1 minute ago, Monkey said:

Stars & Stripes had a wing keel...

True enough, now that I think back. It's been a long, long time since I sailed on her. I surely was excited to get that opportunity (to crew on her some).

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On 7/31/2017 at 3:33 PM, WetHog said:

DC has the wrong DeVos.  Doug DeVos is the owner/helmsman of Quantum Sailing in the TP52 Super Series.  He is also the son of Dick DeVos Sr, the brother of Dick DeVos Jr and current CEO of Amway.  If a DeVos is forming a new challenger from the USA it stands to reason its Doug DeVos.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Yer right about that!

Doug is the younger brother of Dick and is the current president and CEO of Amway.  Dick is the conservative activist and husband of Betsy, your brilliant new Secretary of Education!  Dick ran Amway until about 2002 and stepped down. Later ran unsuccessfully for governor of Michigan. 

Doug is also the money behind Quantum Sail Design Group and as you noted owns and campaigns the TP52 Quantum Racing. AC history in the family stretches back to father and Amway founder Rich, who was heavily involved in the New York Yacht Club's America II challenge in Fremantle in '87 along with son Rich. Certainly there is enough family loot to fund half a dozen campaigns.

There would be a certain symmetry to a DeVos challenge in New Zealand.  Back in '87 the DeVos-backed boat was knocked out of contention for the semi-finals of the Louis Vuitton Cup by the Kiwis on KZ7.

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  ^

"TP 52 Super Series" ... it then stands to reason they're smelling a switch to a "big TP52" mono :(

 

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On 7/30/2017 at 11:33 PM, WetHog said:

DC has the wrong DeVos.  Doug DeVos is the owner/helmsman of Quantum Sailing in the TP52 Super Series.  He is also the son of Dick DeVos Sr, the brother of Dick DeVos Jr and current CEO of Amway.  If a DeVos is forming a new challenger from the USA it stands to reason its Doug DeVos.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Could be Rich Devos (Jr). He is the owner of Windquest, Max Z86 that sails out of a club in Holland, MI. I think his brother, Doug, is also an owner.  Regardless, the DeVos family has a long sailing tradition. But Connor was clearly referencing Rich, Jr., whose wife, Betsy (from her own billionaire family) is the US Ed Sec.

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40 minutes ago, porthos said:

Could be Rich Devos (Jr). He is the owner of Windquest, Max Z86 that sails out of a club in Holland, MI. I think his brother, Doug, is also an owner.  Regardless, the DeVos family has a long sailing tradition. But Connor was clearly referencing Rich, Jr., whose wife, Betsy (from her own billionaire family) is the US Ed Sec.

He could be referring to Rich Jr but after his Bill Butterworth comment, and Doug Devos current involvement in the TP52 Super Series, I figured old DC made a mistake.   We shall see.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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9 hours ago, Xlot said:

  ^

"TP 52 Super Series" ... it then stands to reason they're smelling a switch to a "big TP52" mono :(

 

That would be a great boat to see developed!  70-80 range

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14 hours ago, porthos said:

Could be Rich Devos (Jr). He is the owner of Windquest, Max Z86 that sails out of a club in Holland, MI. I think his brother, Doug, is also an owner.  Regardless, the DeVos Sefamily has a long sailing tradition. But Connor was clearly referencing Rich, Jr., whose wife, Betsy (from her own billionaire family) is the US Ed Sec.

Yeah DC was clearly out of touch. See my post #38 yesterday which I believe is a pretty accurate read on things round Ada and Grand Rapids, Michigan. 

"Doug is the younger brother of Dick and is the current president and CEO of Amway.  Dick is the conservative activist and husband of Betsy, your brilliant new Secretary of Education!  Dick ran Amway until about 2002 and stepped down. Later ran unsuccessfully for governor of Michigan. 

"Doug is also the money behind Quantum Sail Design Group and as you noted owns and campaigns the TP52 Quantum Racing. AC history in the family stretches back to father and Amway co-founder Rich, who was heavily involved in the New York Yacht Club's America II challenge in Fremantle in '87 along with son Dick. Certainly there is enough family loot to fund half a dozen campaigns.

"There would be a certain symmetry to a DeVos challenge in New Zealand.  Back in '87 the DeVos-backed boat was knocked out of contention for the semi-finals of the Louis Vuitton Cup by the Kiwis on KZ7."  

Doug is the most passionately committed sailor in the family, commercially and personally. If there is to be a mid-west challenger it's his turn and his time.  He'd be supported by family including his 91-year-old father whose worth today according to Forbes is $5.5 Billion. As I noted, it's an unfinished agenda.  And of course the family has ties with the many top Kiwi sailors who have crewed and worked for them over the decades.

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Getting a jump on the work ... can you remind me how the verdict about Chicago being on an arm of the sea came about?

 

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11 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Getting a jump on the work ... can you remind me how the verdict about Chicago being on an arm of the sea came about?

 

Chicago YC wanted to challenge for the '87 Cup and went through the trouble to show that the Great Lakes, via the St. Lawrence Seaway, are an arm of the sea.

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2 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

Chicago YC wanted to challenge for the '87 Cup and went through the trouble to show that the Great Lakes, via the St. Lawrence Seaway, are an arm of the sea.

Thanks. And who made the determination, a local court or the NYSC?

 

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19 minutes ago, Xlot said:

 

"Back to the past"

 

Exactly - if you fear the future, run to the past...

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5 hours ago, Xlot said:

Thanks. And who made the determination, a local court or the NYSC?

 

They made an appeal to the court and received a ruling allowing them to challenge. All Cup appeals such as this have to go to the NYSC.

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5 hours ago, pwormwood said:

Exactly - if you fear the future, run to the past...

Why is a ballasted mono in the AC any more "the past" than an off the beach beach cat, in an era when kitefoilers go faster, cost less and are less hassle in many ways?  Both the ballasted mono and the beach cat are older concepts that go slower, all else being roughly equal. Does that mean that both are outmoded?

If an 1876 (or earlier) concept is still fine for a beach cat, A Class or Little America's Cup boat, what's wrong with the 1890s concept of a lightweight fin keel mono in the AC? We know we can't fall back on the old "AC boats have always been the biggest, most advanced and fastest boats" line, because that's simply wrong on the basic historical facts. If there's something intrinsically wrong with older design concepts, will you be advocating that people dump small cats for foilers, kites and windsurfers?

Multihullers have been claiming that multis are the future and monos are the past for about 80 years now, and multis make up about 3% of the racing fleets. Maybe it's time to admit that it's not working as a way to promote multis, and that we could instead follow Nat Herreshoff's concept and admit that multis are "merely an addition" to the sailing scene rather than the future as your line implies?

 

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1 hour ago, The Jay said:

Why is a ballasted mono in the AC any more "the past" than an off the beach beach cat, in an era when kitefoilers go faster, cost less and are less hassle in many ways?  Both the ballasted mono and the beach cat are older concepts that go slower, all else being roughly equal. Does that mean that both are outmoded?

If an 1876 (or earlier) concept is still fine for a beach cat, A Class or Little America's Cup boat, what's wrong with the 1890s concept of a lightweight fin keel mono in the AC? We know we can't fall back on the old "AC boats have always been the biggest, most advanced and fastest boats" line, because that's simply wrong on the basic historical facts. If there's something intrinsically wrong with older design concepts, will you be advocating that people dump small cats for foilers, kites and windsurfers?

Multihullers have been claiming that multis are the future and monos are the past for about 80 years now, and multis make up about 3% of the racing fleets. Maybe it's time to admit that it's not working as a way to promote multis, and that we could instead follow Nat Herreshoff's concept and admit that multis are "merely an addition" to the sailing scene rather than the future as your line implies?

 

It goes back to my point that GGYC/OR missed a chance after the 33rd match to promote both multis and monos.

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10 hours ago, TwoRockKnock said:

Bitter old man yelling at clouds.

He's earned the right to do so..

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16 hours ago, TwoRockKnock said:

Bitter old man yelling at clouds.

Dunno about bitter but I think he's not particularly sharp any more for sure. It's just part of getting old.

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I think they are a good listen -- he has forgotten more than most of us know about sailing.  His experience two boat testing, is second to none, so he knows his shit.   It reminds me of my grandfather teaching me to sail, when I was 10 years old I thought I had it all figured out.  Boy was I wrong and I still use little nuggets my grandfather taught me.     

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On 7/31/2017 at 0:19 PM, Monkey said:

 

IMG_3786.PNG

You're no small budget team when you can hire Ted Turner to work security (or maybe he was spying?)

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