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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
MR PLOW 270

ac36 mono hull knock-on effect

187 posts in this topic

if TNZ did decide to go to monohulls would high speed sailors like burling, outteridge and slingsby leave in search for something actually fast

 

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1 hour ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

if TNZ did decide to go to monohulls would high speed sailors like burling, outteridge and slingsby leave in search for something actually fast

 

Monos will extend the shelf life of the 40+ helmsmen - Jimmy, Ainslie, Barker, but might test the versatility of the young guns like Burling, Outteridge, etc.

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Where would they go?  The AC has become a business now, it is less about the challenge and the sailing as it is about continuous revenue stream.  Where are those guys going to find full employment at their rate?

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2 hours ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

if TNZ did decide to go to monohulls would high speed sailors like burling, outteridge and slingsby leave in search for something actually fast

 

They will be replaced by DC :o

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Who cares where they go? They are all good. If they want to hoist the AC aloft, they will sail in whatever the RNZYS announces to be the new boat. Blokes like Hutchison dont appear to be pan handling in Newport RI. Those new guys will be ok with their millions already banked. 

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11 hours ago, Indio said:

Monos will extend the shelf life of the 40+ helmsmen - Jimmy, Ainslie, Barker, but might test the versatility of the young guns like Burling, Outteridge, etc.

Paul Goodison just dominated at the Moth worlds. And he is 40.

 

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Slingsby has been a regular helm on Speedmoneyramblerloyal for the Hobarts since Bell has had it. 

So he's no stranger to big monos.

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1 hour ago, kawalski said:

Paul Goodison just dominated at the Moth worlds. And he is 40.

 

Dominated? Had PB and one or two of the other AC young guns not been elsewhere engaged for the last couple of years, Goodison would have been lucky if he stood anywhere near the podium, no?

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13 hours ago, Indio said:

Monos will extend the shelf life of the 40+ helmsmen - Jimmy, Ainslie, Barker, but might test the versatility of the young guns like Burling, Outteridge, etc.

 

1 hour ago, kawalski said:

Paul Goodison just dominated at the Moth worlds. And he is 40.

 

Bingo! There is a lot of crap talked about age and helming the foiling AC boats. I don't think you will see Spithill and Barker back, but that is for other reasons. You will see Ainslie, whatever the boat and when you look at his performance in foilers when the boats have been equal, he gave the youngsters a real lesson. Note that 2 of the top 10 at the Moths are turning 40 this year and 11th is 44. 20% of the top 20 were either in their 40th year or older.

 

2 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Dominated? Had PB and one or two of the other AC young guns not been elsewhere engaged for the last couple of years, Goodison would have been lucky if he stood anywhere near the podium, no?

You don't think that Goody has been engaged in the same thing? He had done about as much Moth sailing as the others since the last worlds. And he did dominate, winning with 2 races to spare

It was noticeable that the top 6 at the Moths were involved with AC teams and had very little Moth training in the lead up to event. I had thought that the top non AC sailors such as Rob Greenhagh would have an advantage with the training they did, but no they didn't. 

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13 hours ago, sailman said:

Where would they go?  The AC has become a business now, it is less about the challenge and the sailing as it is about continuous revenue stream.  Where are those guys going to find full employment at their rate?

The America's Cup has and will always be about winning the America's Cup. 
Anyone trying to make TV money and such would be highly disappointed (Larry/Coutts)

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Dominated? Had PB and one or two of the other AC young guns not been elsewhere engaged for the last couple of years, Goodison would have been lucky if he stood anywhere near the podium, no?

Pure speculation. 

Fact is PG won. Twice. 

Age is far less of a factor than people made out.

PB didn't win because BA and then JS were too old. PB won because he is an awesome helm with an awesome boat that had the best all round package. If all the helms were swapped between boats ETNZ still would have won.

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It has a lot more to do with a failure to adapt than age.  These guys need to be sailing as much HP stuff as they can, olympics, wmrt, moth, a class etc.  and those that are are clearly ahead.  you can't expect to be best around if your not sailing regularly.  

Some of them just aren't around.  The fact that PG, NO, PB, Slingsby, and others backed up to the moth worlds says far more about there potential and commitment to HP sailing and makes them the way forward, more than their age ever will.   

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3 hours ago, kawalski said:

Pure speculation. 

Fact is PG won. Twice. 

Age is far less of a factor than people made out.

PB didn't win because BA and then JS were too old. PB won because he is an awesome helm with an awesome boat that had the best all round package. If all the helms were swapped between boats ETNZ still would have won.

remember that PG was also part of AC campaign in bermuda 

 

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They are professional sailors and will sail what ever pays best.

 

How the hell do you think a bunch of UK Finn sailors ended up sailing a catamaran?

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15 hours ago, Qman said:

remember that PG was also part of AC campaign in bermuda 

 

That proves my point even more.

The excuse of PB, NO and TS being in Bermuda and hence being rusty doesn't work.

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17 hours ago, Qman said:

remember that PG was also part of AC campaign in bermuda 

 

Some campaigns gave significantly more time to practice then others... :ph34r:

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4 hours ago, kawalski said:

That proves my point even more.

The excuse of PB, NO and TS being in Bermuda and hence being rusty doesn't work.

PG wasn't on the front line like some of them

 

 

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As far as i can tell PG was second wing trimmer.  

 

 

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To think that any sailing team member just sat around doing nothing or that they were going out doing sneaky Moth sessions while the others were training or racing would be wrong. Goodi had to be up to speed both with fitness and the sailing, and ready to step in at a moment's notice. In practice, Artemis was rotating reserves in and out so as to keep them at a constant state of readiness.

I am not sure why some want to degrade Goodi's win in the Moths and are making the claims about how well others could have done with practice. Goodi's track record is impressive enough to believe he could hold his own even if they all did full campaigns.

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11 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

To think that any sailing team member just sat around doing nothing or that they were going out doing sneaky Moth sessions while the others were training or racing would be wrong. Goodi had to be up to speed both with fitness and the sailing, and ready to step in at a moment's notice. In practice, Artemis was rotating reserves in and out so as to keep them at a constant state of readiness.

I am not sure why some want to degrade Goodi's win in the Moths and are making the claims about how well others could have done with practice. Goodi's track record is impressive enough to believe he could hold his own even if they all did full campaigns.

All well and good, still doesn't change the fact that if your team was knocked out earlier you got more time to do your own stuff. 

Not degrading his efforts at all, but it's pretty silly to try and argue that PB for example wouldn't have benefited from another 3-4 weeks practice (another week or more of AC racing plus a couple of weeks of obligations following victory) compared to his rival(s), it may still not have been enough to catch him, who knows, but it certainly wouldn't have hurt his chances.

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17 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

To think that any sailing team member just sat around doing nothing or that they were going out doing sneaky Moth sessions while the others were training or racing would be wrong. Goodi had to be up to speed both with fitness and the sailing, and ready to step in at a moment's notice. In practice, Artemis was rotating reserves in and out so as to keep them at a constant state of readiness.

I am not sure why some want to degrade Goodi's win in the Moths and are making the claims about how well others could have done with practice. Goodi's track record is impressive enough to believe he could hold his own even if they all did full campaigns.

Without degrading Goodi's excellent performance I think PB needs some credit .. he had not sailed a Moth for two years and as a result of his obligations as the winner of the AC he arrived in Italy just two days before the start of the Italian Nationals.

I think his performance was outstanding.

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2 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

Without degrading Goodi's excellent performance I think PB needs some credit .. he had not sailed a Moth for two years and as a result of his obligations as the winner of the AC he arrived in Italy just two days before the start of the Italian Nationals.

I think his performance was outstanding.

no question,  he had an average qualifier and carried tough points through.  did very nicely in the gold fleet, except the last couple.  wasn't far away if you remove the qualifier points

 

 

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18 hours ago, Boybland said:

All well and good, still doesn't change the fact that if your team was knocked out earlier you got more time to do your own stuff. 

Not degrading his efforts at all, but it's pretty silly to try and argue that PB for example wouldn't have benefited from another 3-4 weeks practice (another week or more of AC racing plus a couple of weeks of obligations following victory) compared to his rival(s), it may still not have been enough to catch him, who knows, but it certainly wouldn't have hurt his chances.

Nobody is taking anything away from PB's performance.

 

What we are saying is the myth of 40 year olds being too old to be competitive is bullshit.

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One wonders whether the myth is so popular because it allows some people to be rabid foiling fanbois without actually going out and sailing one, because they claim the excuse that they are too old.  

The Moth worlds results shows the date of birth of the sailors, so one can see there's another 39++++ year old in 7th (Rob Greenhalgh) and a 44 year old in 11th (Bruni Falcesco). They both beat the current Laser gold medallist.  And incidentally huge kudos to David Smithwhite and AMAC, who made gold fleet in a stellar field at the ages of 61 and 62 respectively. That surely shows that the people who effectively say "foiling is the future and I'd be into it if I was younger" are just making excuses.

 

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3 hours ago, The Jay said:

One wonders whether the myth is so popular because it allows some people to be rabid foiling fanbois without actually going out and sailing one, because they claim the excuse that they are too old.  

The Moth worlds results shows the date of birth of the sailors, so one can see there's another 39++++ year old in 7th (Rob Greenhalgh) and a 44 year old in 11th (Bruni Falcesco). They both beat the current Laser gold medallist.  And incidentally huge kudos to David Smithwhite and AMAC, who made gold fleet in a stellar field at the ages of 61 and 62 respectively. That surely shows that the people who effectively say "foiling is the future and I'd be into it if I was younger" are just making excuses.

 

Very true. We have heard the same thing with the A Class since it has gone foiling. Half the top 10 are over 45 and a few of the fastest guys are in their late 50's. I know it isn't AC sailing, but it does show that foiling around at high speed is not just for the younger sailors. Gives me hope :D

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What is the average age at Moth Worlds? Guessing due to costs involved it would be older than your average SH dinghy worlds. (not asking in support of any position on too old v young, just curious)

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On 01/08/2017 at 5:30 PM, MR PLOW 270 said:

if TNZ did decide to go to monohulls would high speed sailors like burling, outteridge and slingsby leave in search for something actually fast

 

Going back to original question. Do we consider Volvo 65s as fast? Or they've just signed on with celebrity salaries?

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5 hours ago, Tropical Madness said:

Going back to original question. Do we consider Volvo 65s as fast? Or they've just signed on with celebrity salaries?

It isn't just speed, it's about conditions. Burling's helming skills will prove pretty handy once he knows the boat when they are sailing in 30+ knots with big seas in the Southern Ocean. Compared with that, no AC monohull is going to be that challenging to sail.

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8 hours ago, Tropical Madness said:

Going back to original question. Do we consider Volvo 65s as fast? Or they've just signed on with celebrity salaries?

Pretty sure reaching in 30 knots and huge swells they would certainly feel fast (and probably terrifying)!

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3 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

It isn't just speed, it's about conditions. Burling's helming skills will prove pretty handy once he knows the boat when they are sailing in 30+ knots with big seas in the Southern Ocean. Compared with that, no AC monohull is going to be that challenging to sail.

Doubt whether PB has ANY real big sea helming experience at all at this stage. Which is maybe one of the reasons he's signed up. It's in the in-port races where his current skill set will be the most useful I thinking, initially.

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20 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Doubt whether PB has ANY real big sea helming experience at all at this stage. Which is maybe one of the reasons he's signed up. It's in the in-port races where his current skill set will be the most useful I thinking, initially.

You don't take somebody offshore on those boats unless they are equal or better than the alternatives. They are short handed enough that they cannot have passengers. If they just wanted him for in-port races, they could have signed him just for those races. We saw way back that top skiff sailors are among the best Volvo drivers. Besides Chris nocholson, you also have Rob Greenhagh. My money says Burling was signed as a helm for the hairy stuff.

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Posted (edited)

43 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

 If they just wanted him for in-port races, they could have signed him just for those races. .

Except the crew for the in-shore must be the same crew on the previous OR next leg.

Edited by TimmyHate
Trimming quote

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7 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

You don't take somebody offshore on those boats unless they are equal or better than the alternatives. They are short handed enough that they cannot have passengers. If they just wanted him for in-port races, they could have signed him just for those races. We saw way back that top skiff sailors are among the best Volvo drivers. Besides Chris nocholson, you also have Rob Greenhagh. My money says Burling was signed as a helm for the hairy stuff.

Let's just agree his big mono helming skills will be better honed by the time they reach the Southern Ocean, shall we?

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14 hours ago, nav said:

Try not to pitch-pole it....

Good advice, considering recent history. ;)

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To the neanderthal-ic monohull deep draft thowbacks; a few words of advice from New Zealand's Richard Gladwell:
The speculation over what will happen in Auckland is also bubbling away with plenty of comment but not much sense.
For sure the regatta will be held in Auckland, and in February 2021 - which is only three and a half years after Bermuda.

A bit of quick work with Google Earth will tell you that the Waitemata harbour is about half the width (and even less at low tide) of the Great Sound in Bermuda - and that was tight to accommodate America's Cup racing.
Going off North Head drops you in behind the influence of Rangitoto in a sea breeze (a very common wind direction in February) - which will make the racing a complete lottery.
And if you think that doesn't matter, try sitting in the traffic heading into Devonport on a Saturday - on the most congested road in New Zealand. Fans might put up with that for a once off Volvo Ocean Race start - but not on a regular basis of sitting in a car for four hours to see 40 minutes of racing.
Further out into the outer Waitemata harbour is the only sensible option.
Turning to the boat type - keelboat vs. catamaran - a factor that seems to be overlooked with the former is Auckland's three metre plus tides, which will require dredging for a keelboat base location.
Dredging and harbour intrusion is very difficult to get through a planning process, with sailors being at the forefront of protest action on previously mooted projects.
A catamaran is much more practical, as they can operate in the normal Auckland harbour water depth - without any need for dredging.
The other big advantage of catamarans (but for the same reason) is that other locations around the course such as Gulf harbour, Tamaki Estuary and other marinas can be used, which are not suitable for other than relatively shallow drafted keelboats. There is plenty of existing infrastructure which can be used without the need for new facilities.
Getting the teams out of the central City for the Cup build-up also has the advantage of the crews not having to battle with Auckland's rush-hour traffic - which is in full flight at 6.30am.
It also reduces the pressure on the need for inner city accommodation with the price gouging that invariably occurs with major sailing regattas, significantly increasing the cost for visiting teams.
Besides which those involved in the selection of the boat should be listening to the views of new generations of sailing fans and not hitting system reset on a type of boat which has grabbed the attention of a much wider sailing audience.

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57 minutes ago, Groucho Marx said:

To the neanderthal-ic monohull deep draft thowbacks; a few words of advice from New Zealand's Richard Gladwell:
The speculation over what will happen in Auckland is also bubbling away with plenty of comment but not much sense.
For sure the regatta will be held in Auckland, and in February 2021 - which is only three and a half years after Bermuda.

A bit of quick work with Google Earth will tell you that the Waitemata harbour is about half the width (and even less at low tide) of the Great Sound in Bermuda - and that was tight to accommodate America's Cup racing.
Going off North Head drops you in behind the influence of Rangitoto in a sea breeze (a very common wind direction in February) - which will make the racing a complete lottery.
And if you think that doesn't matter, try sitting in the traffic heading into Devonport on a Saturday - on the most congested road in New Zealand. Fans might put up with that for a once off Volvo Ocean Race start - but not on a regular basis of sitting in a car for four hours to see 40 minutes of racing.
Further out into the outer Waitemata harbour is the only sensible option.
Turning to the boat type - keelboat vs. catamaran - a factor that seems to be overlooked with the former is Auckland's three metre plus tides, which will require dredging for a keelboat base location.
Dredging and harbour intrusion is very difficult to get through a planning process, with sailors being at the forefront of protest action on previously mooted projects.
A catamaran is much more practical, as they can operate in the normal Auckland harbour water depth - without any need for dredging.
The other big advantage of catamarans (but for the same reason) is that other locations around the course such as Gulf harbour, Tamaki Estuary and other marinas can be used, which are not suitable for other than relatively shallow drafted keelboats. There is plenty of existing infrastructure which can be used without the need for new facilities.
Getting the teams out of the central City for the Cup build-up also has the advantage of the crews not having to battle with Auckland's rush-hour traffic - which is in full flight at 6.30am.
It also reduces the pressure on the need for inner city accommodation with the price gouging that invariably occurs with major sailing regattas, significantly increasing the cost for visiting teams.
Besides which those involved in the selection of the boat should be listening to the views of new generations of sailing fans and not hitting system reset on a type of boat which has grabbed the attention of a much wider sailing audience.

Pretty much bullshit, based on the old "everybody loves foiling" myth.

He's not wrong about Auckland's traffic armageddon though. But should such side issues affect what class the Cup is raced in?

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7 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

To the neanderthal-ic monohull deep draft thowbacks; a few words of advice from New Zealand's Richard Gladwell:
The speculation over what will happen in Auckland is also bubbling away with plenty of comment but not much sense.
For sure the regatta will be held in Auckland, and in February 2021 - which is only three and a half years after Bermuda.

A bit of quick work with Google Earth will tell you that the Waitemata harbour is about half the width (and even less at low tide) of the Great Sound in Bermuda - and that was tight to accommodate America's Cup racing.
Going off North Head drops you in behind the influence of Rangitoto in a sea breeze (a very common wind direction in February) - which will make the racing a complete lottery.
And if you think that doesn't matter, try sitting in the traffic heading into Devonport on a Saturday - on the most congested road in New Zealand. Fans might put up with that for a once off Volvo Ocean Race start - but not on a regular basis of sitting in a car for four hours to see 40 minutes of racing.
Further out into the outer Waitemata harbour is the only sensible option.
Turning to the boat type - keelboat vs. catamaran - a factor that seems to be overlooked with the former is Auckland's three metre plus tides, which will require dredging for a keelboat base location.
Dredging and harbour intrusion is very difficult to get through a planning process, with sailors being at the forefront of protest action on previously mooted projects.
A catamaran is much more practical, as they can operate in the normal Auckland harbour water depth - without any need for dredging.
The other big advantage of catamarans (but for the same reason) is that other locations around the course such as Gulf harbour, Tamaki Estuary and other marinas can be used, which are not suitable for other than relatively shallow drafted keelboats. There is plenty of existing infrastructure which can be used without the need for new facilities.
Getting the teams out of the central City for the Cup build-up also has the advantage of the crews not having to battle with Auckland's rush-hour traffic - which is in full flight at 6.30am.
It also reduces the pressure on the need for inner city accommodation with the price gouging that invariably occurs with major sailing regattas, significantly increasing the cost for visiting teams.
Besides which those involved in the selection of the boat should be listening to the views of new generations of sailing fans and not hitting system reset on a type of boat which has grabbed the attention of a much wider sailing audience.

Thanks for your comments Russell. Maybe even sell some chips and sunscreen off the end of Wynyard Wharf

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9 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

a type of boat which has grabbed the attention of a much wider sailing audience.

Do you have any evidence that the cats "grabbed the attention of a much wider sailing audience", or do you just like insulting anyone who doesn't share your one-eyed viewpoint?

How are you comparing the cats to the monos? Ratings? In what countries? Website hits? How are you counting them? How are you equating the audience when the sports viewing world has changed so much since monos were last in the Cup?

 

 

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8 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Pretty much bullshit, based on the old "everybody loves foiling" myth.

He's not wrong about Auckland's traffic armageddon though. But should such side issues affect what class the Cup is raced in?

Where does he mention everyone loves foiling? That's your problem/hangup, cobra. Common knowledge seems to be that foiling is too difficult for the mainstream to understand or practice. But that is what is occurring in modern yacht development ... and the winners of the AC know that. You think/dream that they're going back to deep draft dungas. Not going to happen. Cheers.

Jay, I thought it was clear that these words were from Richard Gladwell. However he is right and many agree with him, including me.  Main point being that the inner Auckland harbour is unsuited for the AC and that it will have to shift to deeper, wider water. And even more so if the fantasy old guard monos draw 4 metre plus with pendulum keels? And you may not realize that the Waitemata has tides ranging from 2.6 to 3.7 metres - and even more with on shore winds.

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Really? You obviously don't know the Waitemata. Actually high tides can be as low as 2.4 metres, but the average is around 3m. Still over dramatic?

This is typical of tide 5 hours out two kilometers or so above the Harbour bridge, central Auckland; work it out.sidmud.thumb.jpg.cc0ca0d735a45574eac197d3c4fd9468.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

Where does he mention everyone loves foiling? That's your problem/hangup, cobra. Common knowledge seems to be that foiling is too difficult for the mainstream to understand or practice. But that is what is occurring in modern yacht development ... and the winners of the AC know that. You think/dream that they're going back to deep draft dungas. Not going to happen. Cheers.

(Snip)

And so monos are not yachts? Foils belong only on multis? ETNZ won the Cup with a cat, so they have to defend with a multi and besides, all the kids are into it?

What a croc. When the Proto is announced, I shall revisit your, "Not going to happen". We'll talk again.

By the way, in the words of your namesake, "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." GM.

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If you haven't got a clue where Gladwell gets his information then why assume it's correct?  There has been no previous AC that has benefited from LE's splurging on buying TV time and big bucks going on graphics. No one can compare the audience appeal since cats came in when broadcasting has changed so much over that period. You accept the claim readily because it suits your blinkered, rigid and narcissistic world where the only valid views on AC boats are the ones you hold. 

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3 hours ago, Gutterblack said:

The tidal range is much less than those over dramatic numbers suggest

The tidal range is irrelevant in any case, Gb. Neither the RNZYS nor ETNZ have said racing will take place in the inner harbour.

As usual, Gladwell has gone off half cocked. 

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2 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

Really? You obviously don't know the Waitemata. Actually high tides can be as low as 2.4 metres, but the average is around 3m. Still over dramatic?

This is typical of tide 5 hours out two kilometers or so above the Harbour bridge, central Auckland; work it out.sidmud.thumb.jpg.cc0ca0d735a45574eac197d3c4fd9468.jpg

 

MHWS in AK, up to 3.3 range  MLWS in AK 1.6m range but only a few days a month if that.  Mostly its a low 2m range

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^^ That thing looks pretty rad'. Did someone took DL seriously!? Does that come with a remote?

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6 hours ago, nav said:

^^ That thing looks pretty rad'. Did someone took DL seriously!? Does that come with a remote?

Waiting for the Bay to ice over I think, Nav.

Could be a long wait, since we're apparently in the grip of a catastrophic global warming event. 

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11 hours ago, The Jay said:

If you haven't got a clue where Gladwell gets his information then why assume it's correct?  There has been no previous AC that has benefited from LE's splurging on buying TV time and big bucks going on graphics. No one can compare the audience appeal since cats came in when broadcasting has changed so much over that period. You accept the claim readily because it suits your blinkered, rigid and narcissistic world where the only valid views on AC boats are the ones you hold. 

Ha. Blinkered, rigid and narcissistic world. Even coming from bigoted, arch conservative you, Jay, that is beyond extreme?

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Bullshit I'm a blinkered conservative. I bet I've sailed more different types of craft than you have ever done, including my own racing multis. The difference is that you can't abide freedom of choice or differing views, so you can't simply let mono fans be mono fans. That sort of arrogance makes all of us who love multis look like dickheads.

 

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3 hours ago, The Jay said:

Bullshit I'm a blinkered conservative. I bet I've sailed more different types of craft than you have ever done, including my own racing multis. The difference is that you can't abide freedom of choice or differing views, so you can't simply let mono fans be mono fans. That sort of arrogance makes all of us who love multis look like dickheads.

 

That's being a bit hard on yourself, Jay. Just a little different is all. ;):D

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D'oh!  Aaahhhh, I know I shouldn't let it shit me. It's just mystifying why people cannot let other people like monos, kites, skiffs or whatever. Some of us have strong beliefs about the factual claims that are used to justify positions on the AC, but surely taste and personal preferences themselves are different.

The sort of crap can't help multihull sailing. Who'd want to encourage any type of sailor who is so intolerant of the boats they don't sail themselves? "Oh, please let me race with you so when we're having a drink after the race I can call your boat a shitheap and call you a neanderthal." Yep, that's really going to win friends.

 

 

 

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Typical Gladwell, making it up as he goes along. It is going to be a monohull with some sort of foiling appendages, and I hear Oracle are out and so are SBTJ, GTF and Artemis. I hear that BAR isn't impressed with the type of boat being proposed and shouldn't be considered certain any more. I also heard that Ashby is probably leaving because he feels he has little to offer a mono campaign and doing the Volvo is seen as a way of getting Burling up the learning curve of pushing big monos.

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You're so full of righteous and precious indignation, Jay, you miss the content of what is being discussed. The point is, a whisper in your shell-like ear, (so don't have a heart attack or brain seizure), is that the Waitemata is unsuited for deep draft keel boats. That is the point. Comprehend.

And another voice in your little hearing orifice, I like monohulls, have done many racing and cruising miles in them, even designed and built the "infamous" Cox's Bay Skimmer (see photo) - but admittedly it has multihull-like appendages, meaning T rudder and dagger, and two small chord wing masts) - oh, take that back, because I hear you leaping for high horse Moth foiling defense. You really need to take some deep breaths.

 

cox's summer.jpg

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I didn't miss the context, and other Aucklanders disagree with you about the draft issue. And a word in your orifice - if you shove crap then you get it back. Same with respect.

 

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17 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Typical Gladwell, making it up as he goes along. It is going to be a monohull with some sort of foiling appendages, and I hear Oracle are out and so are SBTJ, GTF and Artemis. I hear that BAR isn't impressed with the type of boat being proposed and shouldn't be considered certain any more. I also heard that Ashby is probably leaving because he feels he has little to offer a mono campaign and doing the Volvo is seen as a way of getting Burling up the learning curve of pushing big monos.

If Lorenzo do 'go back' then I still wonder if the $B's will progress into a new AC50 designs progression 'ACWS' series, much like what the signed Agreement has for its outline. 

Every one of the AC35 helms wants a future in foiling multi's and have said so. Including both (skipper) Ashby and helm Burling.

Its hard to imagine any serious players showing up for a monohull event 4 years down the road, down in Auckland.

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36 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

If Lorenzo do 'go back' then I still wonder if the $B's will progress into a new AC50 designs progression 'ACWS' series, much like what the signed Agreement has for its outline. 

Every one of the AC35 helms wants a future in foiling multi's and have said so. Including both (skipper) Ashby and helm Burling.

Its hard to imagine any serious players showing up for a monohull event 4 years down the road, down in Auckland.

Your last comment is just stupid. It's the AC, the ultimate "build it and they will come" event. If you think that serious players won't take part, you are dreaming. Apart from Ashby and Cammas, everybody else is a monohull sailor who adapted. In general, the same is true for the design teams. Most of the sailors will still be around but the issue is whether the teams will be. What I see is the existing teams dropping out and new teams taking their place. How many, who knows. Because of the challenges of setting up a new team, it is very unlikely that a first time team can win the cup, unless the guys in one of the existing teams can sell the team with personnel as a package (Alinghi style). So in my book, changing to a mono vastly increases the chances of ETNZ defending. Add to that the nationality rule and it makes it hard for new teams to get competitive first time around. ETNZ will probably be the only team with a crew that is fully experienced in AC sailing. That is a huge advantage. 

For once, I am not going to suggest that this is something that Dalton is doing deliberately, because from all I hear, he is actually being given no option and the team's "backers" are calling the shots on this decision. I believe that pressure from people indirectly involved with the sailing is going to lead to a poor decision with the boat. They want a mono, but think they need to include some sort of foiling because both the IMOCA and new Volvo boats. They are scared that by the time the Cup comes around, the boats will look old and slow. What these faceless people seem to miss is that a mono with foils is not going to make a match race boat, not least because they need a pretty big runway to get up and running properly after tacks and gybes. Boats like that do not tack quickly, don't accelerate well and are unsuited to inshore, close quarters racing which is why Volvo are looking for something different for in port racing.

I think Dalton is being screwed by people above him and he will carry the blame when it isn't a success.

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On 8/18/2017 at 4:32 PM, Team_GBR said:

Typical Gladwell, making it up as he goes along. It is going to be a monohull with some sort of foiling appendages, and I hear Oracle are out and so are SBTJ, GTF and Artemis. I hear that BAR isn't impressed with the type of boat being proposed and shouldn't be considered certain any more. I also heard that Ashby is probably leaving because he feels he has little to offer a mono campaign and doing the Volvo is seen as a way of getting Burling up the learning curve of pushing big monos.

Haha maybe you need to lay off the weed? You're starting to hear things. Don't believe the voices in your head.

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8 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

(Snip)

Its hard to imagine any serious players showing up for a monohull event 4 years down the road, down in Auckland.

Not hard at all, Stinger. The "serious players" will all be here.

It's the AC for fuck's sake. You're dreaming if you think AC35 losers are bigger than the Game.

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8 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

If Lorenzo do 'go back' then I still wonder if the $B's will progress into a new AC50 designs progression 'ACWS' series, much like what the signed Agreement has for its outline. 

Every one of the AC35 helms wants a future in foiling multi's and have said so. Including both (skipper) Ashby and helm Burling.

Its hard to imagine any serious players showing up for a monohull event 4 years down the road, down in Auckland.

Lol if the serious players can show up in Bermuda of all places, they'll definitely show up in Auckland.

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Lol if the serious players can show up in Bermuda of all places, they'll definitely show up in Auckland.

A very one eyed and biased view. Many of the players really don't like the idea of the cup in Auckland or NZ for that matter. Few are excited about spending an extended period of time there. Compare it to living on an idyllic island with warm weather where everything was cheap. Life was seriously good for those the teams in Bermuda. Auckland won't even come close. Ask anybody outside of ETNZ and they will tell you that they would much rather live another cup cycle in Bermuda than in Auckland. They will be in auckland, because that is where the game is, but don't take their attendance as evidence that they like or prefer it.

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7 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

A very one eyed and biased view. Many of the players really don't like the idea of the cup in Auckland or NZ for that matter. Few are excited about spending an extended period of time there. Compare it to living on an idyllic island with warm weather where everything was cheap. Life was seriously good for those the teams in Bermuda. Auckland won't even come close. Ask anybody outside of ETNZ and they will tell you that they would much rather live another cup cycle in Bermuda than in Auckland. They will be in auckland, because that is where the game is, but don't take their attendance as evidence that they like or prefer it.

Cry Me a river... No, its probably not Ideal, BUT they're not there to tan on the beach. They're not there to sight see. They're being paid to win the Americas Cup. Who cares what they want to do. If they win, they can go back to Bermuda and enjoy the sun shine. NZ won. They are defending it in New Zealand whether competitors like it or not. End of story.

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Since so many of the 'principals' have expressed their strong preference for continuing the path with foiling multi's, and since 5 of 6 teams signed to an (intended) agreement to pursue that exact path, and since E$B might be pulling for it, and since very few if any other potential AC teams are making even faint noises about going back to monos, and since there is plenty of big-league mono racing already on the Med, well... While it may develop, it will still surprise me if many decent teams were to show up for a 2021 AC in monos, down in Auckland. LR of course would, probably BAR too despite what BA has repeatedly said, but who after that?

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^ not your worry any more spin-boy - you carry on with you work on the b(s)uild-up to the WB$ERIES

I always liked you in that tin-foil hat.....

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34 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Since so many of the 'principals' have expressed their strong preference for continuing the path with foiling multi's, and since 5 of 6 teams signed to an (intended) agreement to pursue that exact path, and since E$B might be pulling for it, and since very few if any other potential AC teams are making even faint noises about going back to monos, and since there is plenty of big-league mono racing already on the Med, well... While it may develop, it will still surprise me if many decent teams were to show up for a 2021 AC in monos, down in Auckland. LR of course would, probably BAR too despite what BA has repeatedly said, but who after that?

Stop being such a sook, Stinger. You sound like, President Trump.

 

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^ For sure nothing has been announced yet but nothing stopped people discussing possible futures at the very early stages of past AC cycles. Nothing will stop it this time either, as evidenced also by reporting from RG, Matt S and others.

There's the possible de Vos family interest hoping to get an AC to Chicago, I did miss that potential team. And Vincenzo Onorato keeps getting asked about entering if it's in mono's and has been mildly forward about the possibility. So to add those two, to LR and BAR.. Is there anyone else being fantasized about?

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Who cares ? an AC on monos would obviously be outshined by a much more interesting event with last generation boats.

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48 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Who cares ? an AC on monos would obviously be outshined by a much more interesting event with last generation boats.

An AC36 in slow monos, with no 'ACWS' build-up, with few if any competitive teams, with all the action decreed to be in Auckland, in a timezone unattractive to live TV or commercial sponsors.. would obviously be outshined by even AC35!

Think back to all the ACWS racing since about '11 starting in Cascais. The LE era was a full meal deal that will be a pretty tough act to follow - even leaving aside instituting a properly independent ACRM and MC, and the revolutionary LiveLine investment and other TV progression investments.

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39 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Who cares ? an AC on monos would obviously be outshined by a much more interesting event with last generation boats.

 No, it wouldn't. Why, because the one team, the one boat which was clearly the fastest, and best would not be attending. No one wants to watch an event made up of all the second best teams in the world sailing the second best boats of their generation who are only there because they didn't get their way in the Americas Cup. The winner of that event would have zero credibility as a champion sailing Americas Cup boats which are not the best and fastest of their generation because they have not competed against the best teams and boats in the world. Its simple, if you're sailing Americas Cup generation boats, you need the current Americas Cup champions involved, otherwise the event has no credibility.

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11 minutes ago, sclarke said:

 No, it wouldn't. Why, because the one team, the one boat which was clearly the fastest, and best would not be attending. No one wants to watch an event made up of all the second best teams in the world sailing the second best boats of their generation who are only there because they didn't get their way in the Americas Cup. The winner of that event would have zero credibility as a champion sailing Americas Cup boats which are not the best and fastest of their generation because they have not competed against the best teams and boats in the world. Its simple, if you're sailing Americas Cup generation boats, you need the current Americas Cup champions involved, otherwise the event has no credibility.

What if the AC35 teams moved ahead with their own new series, but in AC50's even faster than the first generation, faster than ETNZ's boat was in a basically fluke Finals average of only 9 - 10kts of Bermuda breeze? The 5 days between the first and second weekends of the Finals were in 14-16, as was the week before - and even the week after.

Those conditions did not properly show off the strength of the ACC Class, I hope that multi-foiler does evolve and progress somehow.

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32 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

An AC36 in slow monos, with no 'ACWS' build-up, with few if any competitive teams, with all the action decreed to be in Auckland, in a timezone unattractive to live TV or commercial sponsors.. would obviously be outshined by even AC35!

Think back to all the ACWS racing since about '11 starting in Cascais. The LE era was a full meal deal that will be a pretty tough act to follow - even leaving apart a properly independent ACRM and MC, and the revolutionary LiveLine progressions.

If you look back at the ACWS, was it a real success? The boats were slow, the venues selected were not conducive to foiling except probably Chicago, the format was not the greatest, as 1) The Americas Cup does not involve Fleet Racing, 2) The Match Racing which was incorporated was not shown live, you'd think it would be the other way round in the Americas Cup. 3) consistency was not rewarded, especially if a day was missed, the event became a lottery. 4) the points had no effect what so ever on the outcome of the Americas Cup itself,  and 5) the coverage was horrible. But I do agree, Liveline was a huge success. But I do not believe that can be directly attributed to the ACWS, as liveline was used in the last AC.

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10 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

What if the AC35 teams moved ahead with their own new series, but in AC50's even faster than the first generation, faster than ETNZ's boat was in a basically fluke Finals average of only 9 - 10kts of Bermuda breeze? The 5 days between the first and second weekends of the Finals were in 14-16, as was the week before - and even the week after.

Those conditions did not properly show off the strength of the ACC Class, I hope that multi-foiler does evolve and progress somehow.

And do what? re-design the AC50's? Who's going to pay for that? Put bikes on the boats? (Guess who came up with that idea) Re configure their hydraulic and electronic set-ups to replicate the ETNZ set-up? They would be basically admitting they are copying a clearly better design. And besides, if they are willing to spend that amount of money on re-designing their boats to more closely match the ETNZ concept, wouldn't it just be better to spend it on winning the Americas Cup? 

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32 minutes ago, sclarke said:

 No, it wouldn't. Why, because the one team, the one boat which was clearly the fastest, and best would not be attending.

A champion one year may not be the best the next year. And some of best TNZ team members may desert if they have to sail a mono.

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

A champion one year may not be the best the next year. And some of best TNZ team members may desert if they have to sail a mono.

Clearly the Team NZ sailing team are the best in the world today. Ashby is considered the best Multihull sailor in the world today, Burling and Tuke are in a league of their own, and are in a position where one of them may complete the grand slam of Olympic Gold Medal winner, Americas Cup Champion and Volvo Ocean Race champion in a 2 year period. And if they enjoy the experience of sailing a VOR65, they may just find a new respect for monohulls, so don't go expecting a mass exodus from ETNZ just because they may go with a Monohull.

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19 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

A champion one year may not be the best the next year. And some of best TNZ team members may desert if they have to sail a mono.

If etnz picks a mono then ALL teams will be building a mono, meaning if they want to race multis they will have to leave the biggest yachting show on earth.

With regards to whether or not etnz will remain the best, this is largely irrelevant because you cannot base you decision on the future because nobody knows what the future holds. You can only base it upon the past in conjunction with assumptions. 

If you look at etnz, it has BY FAR the strongest pedigree of any team currently in operation. It has participated in EVERY multi challenger  AC match since 1995, winning three of them.

No other team comes remotely close. Not Oracle, Luna Rossa nor Alinghi. So why (other than possibly a fatter pay cheque ) would they go to another team?

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A question: why would a team, easily the most original and innovative in design, boat handling and control in the last AC ... want to toss away all that hard earned expertise ... for a retrograde monohull ... and have to start all over again?

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3 minutes ago, Groucho Marx said:

A question: why would a team, easily the most original and innovative in design, boat handling and control in the last AC ... want to toss away all that hard earned expertise ... for a retrograde monohull ... and have to start all over again?

Does not automatically mean innovation and expertise goes out the window. It just means they may have to adapt that expertise to another discipline. They no doubt have a wealth of knowledge in mono design also. Perhaps their knowledge base they gained from Multihull design can be adapted to mono design as well. We may just get a revolutionary new mono this time just as we got a revolutionary new multi the last time.

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There is merit in what you say, sclarke, but aside from the foiling Moth, where are more examples of revolutionary monohull development? There are the foiling European, mainly French 60s but even they don't compare with similar sized multihulls in development or speed; also they're not good to windward - something that is quite important in AC racing? And a big 60 foot foiling Moth? With no ballast? Nothing like that exists.

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2 minutes ago, Groucho Marx said:

There is merit in what you say, sclarke, but aside from the foiling Moth, where are more examples of revolutionary monohull development? There are the foiling European, mainly French 60s but even they don't compare with similar sized multihulls in development or speed; also they're not good to windward - something that is quite important in AC racing? And a big 60 foot foiling Moth? With no ballast? Nothing like that exists.

Yet. Nothing like that exists yet. Remember, before 2013, no real foiling multihulls existed. Even the huge 90 foot wingsailed Tri-maran did not foil. It took ETNZ to introduce a large foiling cat to international competition. Now they are everywhere. Even the GC32 took elements from the ETNZ design, and they have been hugely successful. Maybe it will take ETNZ to design a new revolutionary monohull this time as well. I don't claim to know what Dalton and ETNZ are up to. No one even knows for certain that they will even take the monohull route. But Dalton has stated they will be "exciting boats". 

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It's all very well talking about teams and boat types but a large foiling monohull will blow the budget way over 100 mil. Remember V5 budget discussions, DC saying in 2005 he would need 100-300 million. The Volvos are one design, still cost 70/80 mil, and they have their work cut out raising 7 teams in whats a well-established sponsor friendly event. Non of the existing corporate sponsors outside ENTZ's want to go mono and don't even want to go to NZ. I dealt with a few largish corporate sponsoring a RTW sailing event some years ago and none wanted to sponsor anything based n NZ let alone a sailing event - the markets too small, too monopolized and too remote. Approach a few, pitch and then tell them their Euro top brass need 3 days of travelling to visit. They don't have that sort of time, full stop, door closed. Dalton's always had issues both as winner and challenger and now he's under a couple of Italian financiers thumbs.

Corporate sponsors on the last AC were largely new and essentially sold on foiling/wingsail tech. It was a two-way performance relationship. From their POV there is no point in being involved with performance design and then adding twenty tons of lead.

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3 hours ago, sclarke said:

Clearly the Team NZ sailing team are the best in the world today.

Perhaps today, but Oracle won with 8 in a row and....lost 4 years later.

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2 hours ago, chesirecat said:

It's all very well talking about teams and boat types but a large foiling monohull will blow the budget way over 100 mil. Remember V5 budget discussions, DC saying in 2005 he would need 100-300 million. The Volvos are one design, still cost 70/80 mil, and they have their work cut out raising 7 teams in whats a well-established sponsor friendly event. Non of the existing corporate sponsors outside ENTZ's want to go mono and don't even want to go to NZ. I dealt with a few largish corporate sponsoring a RTW sailing event some years ago and none wanted to sponsor anything based n NZ let alone a sailing event - the markets too small, too monopolized and too remote. Approach a few, pitch and then tell them their Euro top brass need 3 days of travelling to visit. They don't have that sort of time, full stop, door closed. Dalton's always had issues both as winner and challenger and now he's under a couple of Italian financiers thumbs.

Corporate sponsors on the last AC were largely new and essentially sold on foiling/wingsail tech. It was a two-way performance relationship. From their POV there is no point in being involved with performance design and then adding twenty tons of lead.

Again, whether or not teams/ sponsors want to got o Auckland is irrelevant. It WILL BE in Auckland so they can either choose to go to Auckland, or not. Bermuda was by far one of the worst venues in terms of corporate sponsorship, especially for ETNZ, but those ETNZ sponsors were there to back THE TEAM, and to support THE TEAM to achieve the desired outcome, which was winning the Cup. Emirates backed Team NZ after 2 crushing defeats, and an event on a far off island, and which the odds were heavily stacked against ETNZ to win. The sponsors of the teams WILL come to New Zealand because they have to if they want THEIR TEAM to win the Americas Cup. Its not about what you WANT to do, its about what you HAVE to do to see your team win. The event will happen. No doubt about. And those teams and sponsors who are truly committed to winning the Americas Cup, will come.

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6 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

What if the AC35 teams moved ahead with their own new series, but in AC50's even faster than the first generation, faster than ETNZ's boat was in a basically fluke Finals average of only 9 - 10kts of Bermuda breeze? The 5 days between the first and second weekends of the Finals were in 14-16, as was the week before - and even the week after.

Those conditions did not properly show off the strength of the ACC Class, I hope that multi-foiler does evolve and progress somehow.

So ETNZ's AC35 annihilation of OTUSA was a fluke of the weather? Is that what you are suggesting?

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5 hours ago, jaysper said:

If etnz picks a mono then ALL teams will be building a mono, meaning if they want to race multis they will have to leave the biggest yachting show on earth.

I take issue with you on the idea that the AC is the biggest yachting show on earth. How are you measuring that? I think that on many measures, it is not the biggest.

Quote

 

With regards to whether or not etnz will remain the best, this is largely irrelevant because you cannot base you decision on the future because nobody knows what the future holds. You can only base it upon the past in conjunction with assumptions. 

If you look at etnz, it has BY FAR the strongest pedigree of any team currently in operation. It has participated in EVERY multi challenger  AC match since 1995, winning three of them.

No other team comes remotely close. Not Oracle, Luna Rossa nor Alinghi. So why (other than possibly a fatter pay cheque ) would they go to another team?

 

You could argue that following their first win of the Cup, they had by far the strongest pedigree, yet despite that, they still lost it.

Why would any of ETNZ go to another team? You answer it yourself when you say money, but also opportunity. For arguments sake only, if Ashby stays head of sailing and skipper at ETNZ, maybe Pete Burling feels he would like to take that role on and if that was the case, he might move for more money and running the show. If Tuke gets on really well with the Volvo steering, maybe he might want to steer next time but with Burling at ETNZ, he would know he won't get the chance. I could go on, and these are only hypothetical reasons, but it is easy to see why somebody might move on for their own personal development and money. 

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On 8/17/2017 at 7:47 PM, Gutterblack said:

The tidal range is much less than those over dramatic numbers suggest

Never let the facts get in the way of a piece of bullshit

 

The Auckland tidal range in February 2019 - the closest to 2021 available  is 2.8metres to 3.7metres

 

 

Screen Shot 2017-08-20 at 16.56.48.png

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Robber, a certain number would prefer not to be informed or educated by the Waitemata's tidal range. You spoil their fantasies ... and their ignorance. Whoever suggested the AC fleet would be racing downtown off the viaduct in that swirling patch of narrow confined water, over a period of weeks, (somehow ignoring Auckland's usual maritime traffic) well, yes, la la land existence

However there are excellent alternatives off East Coat bays and Whangaparoa or between Waiheke or Motukorea and mainland, plenty of room there, less traffic and less tide too. Some may remember that it was here a certain champion Kiwi flyer trained? Seemed to go okay?

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47 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

I take issue with you on the idea that the AC is the biggest yachting show on earth. How are you measuring that? I think that on many measures, it is not the biggest.

You could argue that following their first win of the Cup, they had by far the strongest pedigree, yet despite that, they still lost it.

Why would any of ETNZ go to another team? You answer it yourself when you say money, but also opportunity. For arguments sake only, if Ashby stays head of sailing and skipper at ETNZ, maybe Pete Burling feels he would like to take that role on and if that was the case, he might move for more money and running the show. If Tuke gets on really well with the Volvo steering, maybe he might want to steer next time but with Burling at ETNZ, he would know he won't get the chance. I could go on, and these are only hypothetical reasons, but it is easy to see why somebody might move on for their own personal development and money. 

Name a sailing show that is bigger. You can't. No other show attracts the investment that the AC does.

With regards to ETNZ's pedigree you are using the precise argument that I have shown makes no sense. Yes they could lose it but nobody knows the future and you can base your decision only what it's known. And what is know it's that etnzs pedigree stands alone. Period.

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Jaysper

You want to know why somebody would leave and you ignore simple truths. ETNZ might be the current pre-eminent team but they will lose the cup one day just like they did before and people will leave the team, just like they did before. Pedigree alone isn't enough to keep people there. We have seen this throughout the years of the Cup. If people don't like what is going on and cannot satisfy their individual ambitions at a team, even the cup holder, they will move on. It's happened to TNZ before and it will happen again.

If you are going to only judge an event on investment, maybe the AC is the biggest. I am not sure I can really count an event where half the competitors are the play thing of some billionaire. Consider which event brings in the most sponsors. I suspect that is the Volvo and if you are going to base it on viewers and followers, it's probably the Volvo again. Strange as it might seem to many on this forum, but for most, even in the sailing world, the AC is a total irrelevance.

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2 hours ago, jaysper said:

Name a sailing show that is bigger. You can't. No other show attracts the investment that the AC does.

 

Just now, A Class Sailor said:

If you are going to only judge an event on investment, maybe the AC is the biggest. I am not sure I can really count an event where half the competitors are the play thing of some billionaire. Consider which event brings in the most sponsors. I suspect that is the Volvo and if you are going to base it on viewers and followers, it's probably the Volvo again. Strange as it might seem to many on this forum, but for most, even in the sailing world, the AC is a total irrelevance.

Both of you are talking shit. Arguing over what is the biggest or most relevant is pointless. Each of the big shows in sailing have their place. the AC, Volvo, Vende Globe, Olympics and others can all lay claim to being the biggest in some form or another. Google search "biggest sailing event" and you get Cowes Week because it has the most boats.

For some, the pinnacle is the AC, for others, they have no interest and instead concentrate on other events. I know guys who have turned down top roles with big money on good AC teams because they would rather do other things. It's the great thing about our sport. It is varied and gives us all so many opportunities to participate or follow in different ways.

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3 hours ago, robberzdog said:

Never let the facts get in the way of a piece of bullshit

 

The Auckland tidal range in February 2019 - the closest to 2021 available  is 2.8metres to 3.7metres

 

 

Screen Shot 2017-08-20 at 16.56.48.png

 

Friday 22 the maximum tidal range is 3.5 m which is a very high tide btw only for one tide, during this month there are only 5 days the tidal range exceeds 3 m. On Saturday 2nd the minimum tidal range is 1.8m  and there are far more days with the tide at the lower end of the range.

As for sailing it in the Waitemata "river" forget it, as there are other limiting factors but its not the tide..

 

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The point is not about the strength of the tidal flow, but where in the harbour there is sufficient depth of water to get a deep keeled monhull into a berth - remembering that a channel had to be dredged to allow the IACC boats to get in and out of Viaduct Harbour at all stages of the tide for the 2000-2003 Cup. The Viaduct Harbour is no longer an option for team bases. So if a monohull is selected then there will have to be dredging which just won't get through the environmental planning and public opposition process as Ports of Auckland found out a year or two ago. Of course you could alway race only when the tide is in like they used to do in the good old days.

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The point is that you dont know the difference between tide height and tidal range, therefore you know 5/8th's of fuck all about the sea.

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Gutter, the tidal movement anywhere here is always large, just read the tables. Here's an image (quite historic) of a missed high tide launching of Castaway Fiji at.West Park Marina. Everyone had to wait while last minute anti-fouling was sprayed on. Check out how far down it is to tide line. And when lowered the boat ended up pivoting on its keel in mud and had be brutally dragged to slightly deeper water.

castway2 copy.jpg

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12 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

What if the AC35 teams moved ahead with their own new series, but in AC50's even faster than the first generation, faster than ETNZ's boat was in a basically fluke Finals average of only 9 - 10kts of Bermuda breeze? The 5 days between the first and second weekends of the Finals were in 14-16, as was the week before - and even the week after.

Those conditions did not properly show off the strength of the ACC Class, I hope that multi-foiler does evolve and progress somehow.

 

6 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

So ETNZ's AC35 annihilation of OTUSA was a fluke of the weather? Is that what you are suggesting?

 

Clearly...

Let the spinbot do what he does

So sad

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19 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

An AC36 in slow monos, with no 'ACWS' build-up, with few if any competitive teams, with all the action decreed to be in Auckland, in a timezone unattractive to live TV or commercial sponsors.. would obviously be outshined by even AC35!

Think back to all the ACWS racing since about '11 starting in Cascais. The LE era was a full meal deal that will be a pretty tough act to follow - even leaving aside instituting a properly independent ACRM and MC, and the revolutionary LiveLine investment and other TV progression investments.

The absence of a regular series between AC editions is an ingredient of the Cup's sustainability for over 160 years. The public does not know whether challenger and defender have teh better campaign, the mystery remains until the match. That's what the AC is about.

BTW, WTF is "outshined"?:wacko: Should it read "outshone"?

 

19 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

What if the AC35 teams moved ahead with their own new series, but in AC50's even faster than the first generation, faster than ETNZ's boat was in a basically fluke Finals average of only 9 - 10kts of Bermuda breeze? The 5 days between the first and second weekends of the Finals were in 14-16, as was the week before - and even the week after.

Those conditions did not properly show off the strength of the ACC Class, I hope that multi-foiler does evolve and progress somehow.

Yeah, great, another series that is irrelevant for the AC, like the EXSS. The more the better, as it's sailing after all!

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14 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

So ETNZ's AC35 annihilation of OTUSA was a fluke of the weather? Is that what you are suggesting?

While most reasonable analyses of the ETNZ win do include pointing to the conditions being in ETNZ's foil design sweet spot - including in the recently published analysis by ETNZ's own, lead, French foil designer GV - that is not the point I was arguing when suggesting there is more performance to get out of the AC50's in a potential next-gen Design Rule. Even without them all turning to a path of push-button pedal boats. Lots could be done to widen the various boats' sweet spots too, to better include the lower/slower end of the foiling range that we (yes, somewhat flukily) saw in the Finals.

There ~have~ been suggestions that there will be discussions around such a series in AC50's; you'd think those discussions will depend to a large degree on what GD decrees.

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