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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
MR PLOW 270

ac36 mono hull knock-on effect

187 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

While most reasonable analyses of the ETNZ win do include pointing to the conditions being in ETNZ's foil design sweet spot - including in the recently published analysis by ETNZ's own, lead, French foil designer GV - that is not the point I was arguing when suggesting there is more performance to get out of the AC50's in a potential next-gen Design Rule. Even without them all turning to a path of push-button pedal boats. Lots could be done to widen the various boats' sweet spots too, to better include the lower/slower end of the foiling range that we (yes, somewhat flukily) saw in the Finals.

There ~have~ been suggestions that there will be discussions around such a series in AC50's; you'd think those discussions will depend to a large degree on what GD decrees.

The AC50's are done. A new AC breed is about to be revealed.

Get used to it, or fuck off with your beach cats on steroids. They are history.

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Aug 2, Burling: ""I'm happy as long as it goes fast. It would be a bit of a shame to take a step backwards in terms of the speeds the boats can generate."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11897060

The hired help don't make the Rules. You should know that, Stinger.

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In Auckland the new boat will not be a retrograde and stupidly deep draft monohull - so dream on usedbydate.

 

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1 hour ago, maxmini said:

Hes just the driver and will drive whatever he gets a check for not that it is a bad thing .

True. If the check is bigger, and to instead race the fastest short-course racing boats in the world, that is exactly the path Burling will take. A ~good~ thing for him.

Burling's recent response to a Q about sailor nationality restrictions was interesting, when he used this phrase when responding (something like) 'It will be interesting to see how harsh the law will be.'

His use of 'Harsh' could refer to the potential restrictions on his and other top-tier guys' chances to earn their true worth in an open market unencumbered by newly changed AC36 decrees. Like for example in a NextGen AC50 Series, backed by real $B's.

 

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20 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

True. If the check is bigger, and to instead race the fastest short-course racing boats in the world, that is exactly the path Burling will take. A ~good~ thing for him.

Burling's recent response to a Q about sailor nationality restrictions was interesting, when he used this phrase when responding (something like) 'It will be interesting to see how harsh the law will be.'

His use of 'Harsh' could refer to the potential restrictions on his and other top-tier guys' chances to earn their true worth in an open market unencumbered by newly changed AC36 decrees. Like for example in a NextGen AC50 Series, backed by real $B's.

 

It will be a interesting balancing act with regards to the restrictions to appease those wanting stricter nationality rules and the goal of keeping the unemployment rate in NZ respectable. Additionally keeping guys from pulling a " Cayard " will be an issue that will be have to be dealt with .

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20 minutes ago, maxmini said:

It will be a interesting balancing act with regards to the restrictions to appease those wanting stricter nationality rules and the goal of keeping the unemployment rate in NZ respectable. Additionally keeping guys from pulling a " Cayard " will be an issue that will be have to be dealt with .

The first-ever sailor-nationality rule was iirc decreed by the NYYC in 1980 (when TE first appeared on the AC scene, possibly coincidentally) and because of (was it?) Andy Rose's choice to help a foreign synidicate after '77.

The rule was devised as a competitive advantage the to Defender, even if it is now being done also for commercial-TV and for sailor salary-killing reasons. 

Some like to harp on the 'perpetual challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries' but conveniently exclude what the competition is then described to be all about, 'a match for this Cup with a yacht or vessel propelled by sails only and constructed in the country to which the challenging Club belongs, against any one yacht or vessel constructed in the country of the Club holding the Cup.'

Nothing, anywhere, prescribes who may sail for the Club.

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On 20/08/2017 at 6:50 AM, Tornado-Cat said:

Who cares ? an AC on monos would obviously be outshined by a much more interesting event with last generation boats.

That's like saying motorcycle racing is "obviously" outshined by car racing because cars go faster, or like saying that the Tour de France is "outshined" by the 100 mph streamline recumbent bicycles that race once a year in front of a crowd of two people and a stray dog. Okay, we get it that you don't like monos, but your personal taste in sailboats (like mine) is completely irrelevant to what most people like.

By the way, if having the latest design and highest performance is so important why are you not sailing a kitefoiler instead of a 1960s update of an 1876 (or earlier) concept? Do you prefer to watch kitefoilers instead of Tornado or FP racing just because kitefoilers are faster?  

Can I ask what other sports you enjoy?

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

True. If the check is bigger, and to instead race the fastest short-course racing boats in the world, that is exactly the path Burling will take. A ~good~ thing for him.

Burling's recent response to a Q about sailor nationality restrictions was interesting, when he used this phrase when responding (something like) 'It will be interesting to see how harsh the law will be.'

His use of 'Harsh' could refer to the potential restrictions on his and other top-tier guys' chances to earn their true worth in an open market unencumbered by newly changed AC36 decrees. Like for example in a NextGen AC50 Series, backed by real $B's.

 

Hahaha why is it such a difficult prospect to get your head around? Oracle had their vision, as did every other team. They were beaten by a better team. Its time for that better team to enact their own vision. If thos teams who were beaten want to bring back the 50's, why not enter the Americas Cup, defeat all challengers and go on to race the defender just as Team NZ did. You hold the cup, you make the rules. Simple. They should use the AC50's as an incentive to win the cup back, instead of crying into their porridge saying "we want this, and if we don't get our way we're not playing" If you want the AC50's, win the cup, and you get it. Simple.

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9 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Hahaha why is it such a difficult prospect to get your head around? Oracle had their vision, as did every other team. They were beaten by a better team. Its time for that better team to enact their own vision. If thos teams who were beaten want to bring back the 50's, why not enter the Americas Cup, defeat all challengers and go on to race the defender just as Team NZ did. You hold the cup, you make the rules. Simple. They should use the AC50's as an incentive to win the cup back, instead of crying into their porridge saying "we want this, and if we don't get our way we're not playing" If you want the AC50's, win the cup, and you get it. Simple.

Sure, but if 'win the Cup' falls behind the higher priorities of the AC50-interested $Bs and other sailing sponsors who agreed to the FA then.. Who will bother to show up down in Auckland when they can instead run their own Best Sailors in the Fastest Boats event?

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2 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Sure, but if 'win the Cup' falls behind the higher priorities of the AC50-interested $Bs and other sailing sponsors who agreed to the FA then.. Who will bother to show up down in Auckland when they can instead run their own Best Sailors in the Fastest Boats event?

They'd be lying to themselves and everyone else, because they would have neither the fastest boat or the best sailors. Put it this way, one billionaire starts a rogue series involving second placed AC50's with second placed sailors, and wins a second place, meaningless trophy, meanwhile his billionaire friend enters the Americas Cup, defeats the best team in the world and sits atop the sailing mountain, takes his place in the history books and gets his teams name etched on sports oldest trophy and now gets to enact his vision. One Billionaire will live forever in history, while the other will scream "But what about Me...I couldn't beat the Kiwi's, but at least I'm sailing an AC50, and i've got a shiny piece of metal too"! 

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All the sort of people who showed up from 1970 to 2007 knew that the AC boats were comparatively slow. It didn't stop them turning up then. Only the sort of people who ran around with their eyes closed and thought 505s were really fast thought 12s and IACC boats were very fast.

Not many people really care if the sport they watch is the fastest thing of its kind. Michael Phelps' world record is 20% slower than the world swimming record of a teenage girl (Vera Ilyushina) but people still watch Phelps. People turn up to NASCAR, whereas the racing for the least-restricted and possibly fastest cars ever (Can Am) died out years ago. People turn up to the Super Bowl despite the fact that other forms of football and ball sports have higher scores and faster moving balls. People watch the Tour de France despite the fact that the bikes are slow.

Stinger's ideas seem to revolve around the assumption that faster is better in sailing, but looking at other sports shows us that faster is not better per se. And if faster craft are better craft then AC50s are inferior to SailRocket, Hydroptere, kites and windsurfers. His vision is not of "The Best Sailors in the Fastest Boats". It would be more truthfully called "The Best Sailors at medium speeds in the Fastest Boats with the wind at a particular strength, in waves of a certain range, on a course of a particular length" which is not so snappy.

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Aug 2, Burling: ""I'm happy as long as it goes fast. It would be a bit of a shame to take a step backwards in terms of the speeds the boats can generate."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11897060

All that's saying is that the winning skipper wants the AC boats to stay the same. Charlie Barr, Mike Vanderbilt and Dennis Conner would have said the same thing. A while back the winner AC skipper said the Cup should remain in leadmines. There is no logical reason to say that the view of 2017's winning skipper is any more valid than the view of 1987's winning skipper. 

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28 minutes ago, The Jay said:

All the sort of people who showed up from 1970 to 2007 knew that the AC boats were comparatively slow. It didn't stop them turning up then. Only the sort of people who ran around with their eyes closed and thought 505s were really fast thought 12s and IACC boats were very fast.

Not many people really care if the sport they watch is the fastest thing of its kind. Michael Phelps' world record is 20% slower than the world swimming record of a teenage girl (Vera Ilyushina) but people still watch Phelps. People turn up to NASCAR, whereas the racing for the least-restricted and possibly fastest cars ever (Can Am) died out years ago. People turn up to the Super Bowl despite the fact that other forms of football and ball sports have higher scores and faster moving balls. People watch the Tour de France despite the fact that the bikes are slow.

Stinger's ideas seem to revolve around the assumption that faster is better in sailing, but looking at other sports shows us that faster is not better per se. And if faster craft are better craft then AC50s are inferior to SailRocket, Hydroptere, kites and windsurfers. His vision is not of "The Best Sailors in the Fastest Boats". It would be more truthfully called "The Best Sailors at medium speeds in the Fastest Boats with the wind at a particular strength, in waves of a certain range, on a course of a particular length" which is not so snappy.

Well Played !

 

 Those interested in speed are looking at the wrong sport in the first place .

I went to a little mid season crew Bar-B-Que last night and after a couple of hrs when no one brought up the AC I did just for the hell of it. 

Every argument I and others have brought up in the last few years on this forum were apparently more common than even I had realized.

The interesting thing that is of the approx 20 actual sailboat racers in attendance no one even thought about the AC until i threw it out there. 

The AC better start finding that all important new audience which they so far have been unable to do as the last two events have shown as they have lost the vast majority of its former fan base. 

Other than those teams needing a pay check it will be interesting to see who shows up this time around . 

In NASCAR they have start and park teams , those back of the pack guys that collect a nice check just for showing up and then parking after a few laps . As one of the primary targets of the AC these days , remember the checker flag, the analogy is quite fitting . 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

In Auckland the new boat will not be a retrograde and stupidly deep draft monohull - so dream on usedbydate.

 

You have no fucking idea what I'm dreaming, GM. Neither do I half the time. Probably just as well. ;)

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54 minutes ago, sclarke said:

They'd be lying to themselves and everyone else, because they would have neither the fastest boat or the best sailors. Put it this way, one billionaire starts a rogue series involving second placed AC50's with second placed sailors, and wins a second place, meaningless trophy, meanwhile his billionaire friend enters the Americas Cup, defeats the best team in the world and sits atop the sailing mountain, takes his place in the history books and gets his teams name etched on sports oldest trophy and now gets to enact his vision. One Billionaire will live forever in history, while the other will scream "But what about Me...I couldn't beat the Kiwi's, but at least I'm sailing an AC50, and i've got a shiny piece of metal too"! 

+1 What, Mr Clarke said.

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1 hour ago, The Jay said:

That's like saying motorcycle racing is "obviously" outshined by car racing because cars go faster, or like saying that the Tour de France is "outshined" by the 100 mph streamline recumbent bicycles that race once a year in front of a crowd of two people and a stray dog. Okay, we get it that you don't like monos, but your personal taste in sailboats (like mine) is completely irrelevant to what most people like.

By the way, if having the latest design and highest performance is so important why are you not sailing a kitefoiler instead of a 1960s update of an 1876 (or earlier) concept? Do you prefer to watch kitefoilers instead of Tornado or FP racing just because kitefoilers are faster?  

Can I ask what other sports you enjoy?

I hope to fly a foiler soon.

The first AC was won by the fastest boat around an island. Why do you want to impose a slow boat for the AC? You have one design for that.

Even more strange, kiwis claim they want real boats on the ocean, why chosing a concept from the beginning of humanity ?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I hope to fly a foiler soon.

The first AC was won by the fastest boat around an island. Why do you want to impose a slow boat for the AC? You have one design for that.

Even more strange, kiwis claim they want real boats on the ocean, why chosing a concept from the beginning of humanity ?

 

 

Are you suggesting multi-hulls are a new concept, TC? Surely not?

Because foils have been fitted to both multis and monos for quite some time now.

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42 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Are you suggesting multi-hulls are a new concept, TC? Surely not?

Because foils have been fitted to both multis and monos for quite some time now.

Pretty sure people having been tying logs together for some time now. :D

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

They'd be lying to themselves and everyone else, because they would have neither the fastest boat or the best sailors. Put it this way, one billionaire starts a rogue series involving second placed AC50's with second placed sailors, and wins a second place, meaningless trophy, meanwhile his billionaire friend enters the Americas Cup, defeats the best team in the world and sits atop the sailing mountain, takes his place in the history books and gets his teams name etched on sports oldest trophy and now gets to enact his vision. One Billionaire will live forever in history, while the other will scream "But what about Me...I couldn't beat the Kiwi's, but at least I'm sailing an AC50, and i've got a shiny piece of metal too"! 

2 things stick out from this. First, the "fastest boat with the fastest sailors" was always the most stupid and baseless comment. The fastest boat is SailRocket and the fastest sailor is Paul Larsen. Everybody else is a distant second. Next, it is a totally false assumption that because ETNZ won, they had the best sailors. Anybody who thinks that one of the other top teams would not have been able to win in what was clearly the best boat is pretty unrealistic. ETNZ had the best design, although IIRC, they didn't achieve the highest top speed of the LV and AC.

There is no reason why an event or series for AC50's could be held and be successful. It could happen without having any relevance or impact on the AC. After all, there are regattas for old AC boats, so why not the AC50's. It would be a shame if they all ended up sitting on shore doing nothing. If the AC is as strong and significant as some on here say, why would the AC be threatened by such a series. It wouldn't.

Is such a series viable? I think it probably would be, although it would need some smart people to find a cost effective way of equalising performance. Would people want to race these boats? You bet. Would people like to see them sail at venues where we could all go and watch? You bet. Would it be any less interesting if the boats were made more equal? It certainly wouldn't be less spectacular. I think people are smart enough to know it wouldn't be the AC and maybe there would be a need to rename the boats so there is no mention of the AC. How about F50's? Put on an F50 regatta in the UK and I would be there in a flash. I think there is more than enough room in the sailing world for a series for those boats and I hope it happens. If it does, I would expect some AC sailors to take part, in addition to still sailing in the AC. As we have seen before, there is no need for anybody to be exclusively AC until the run up towards the end. There are certainly 2-3 years where it is possible to do other series so why not.

 

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Are you suggesting multi-hulls are a new concept, TC? Surely not?

Because foils have been fitted to both multis and monos for quite some time now.

Monos are from the beginning of humanity era, catamarans a few hundred years.

Foils on mono increase the speed of a few knots only, mainly downwind, foils on cats allow them to go 4X the wind speed

Do you want to watch a hundred million program boat be circled around by a 1 thousand dollar foiling kite ? Yep that would grasp my interest :)

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Its not how fast you are going that counts , its how fast you are going in comparison to the other guy :)

Thats what makes for competition .

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TC, when you say "yes that grasps my interest" you're sort of making the point for me. What grasps YOUR interest is irrelevant. What grasps MY interest is irrelevant. What grasps Maxmini's interest or Stingray's interest is irrelevant. The personal interest of any one person has zero to do with anything, unless that are running a DOG challenge. It's not about you or me.

If you still haven't flown a foiler when they've been winning races at world level for 16 years it's odd that you can deride others for being behind the times. And the studies by those who run the SCHRS indicate that as of about a season ago, foils only increase speed on a cat by about 4% - much less than they increase speed in a Moth.

It's utterly wrong to say that cats have been around for "a few hundred years". The Polynesians had them about 3,000 years ago. They are a far older style of boat than a deep keel mono. If you want to sail the newest craft, or the fastest craft for its size why are you sticking to foiling cats and not sailing a Sailrocket or a kitefoiler? I still cannot understand people who say "it's critical to sail as fast as possible" then sail something that doesn't sail as fast as possible. Why not practise what you essentially preach?

The historical fact is that America was NOT the fastest boat. Maria was much faster. Steers said that Mary Taylor, a working boat, was faster. The men who wrote the Deed excluded the fastest yacht in the USA. It is illogical to say that the AC is about the fastest boat when the men who wrote the Deed would not let the fastest boat race in the AC. It is illogical to assume that you know more about the AC than Vanderbilt, Stephens, the NYYC America's Cup committee, Herreshoff and others. They all ensured that the AC was NOT sailed in radical machines that were miles faster than anything else. Instead they ensured that it was sailed in boats that fitted into a racing class that was used outside the AC and which was raced under the same design rules as popular club-racing boats.

It is also frankly ridiculous to say that the modern AC should respect the spirit of the original race and the Deed and then to NOT ensure that the AC is sailed in boats that could cross oceans. Schuyler was quite specific that if the AC was to achieve its goals, it HAD to be in a boat that could sail the Atlantic. The AC50 (and the 72 and IACC) are quite clearly in violation of the wishes of the man who wrote the Deed and therefore no one can logically support the spirit of the early Deed and the AC50.

Why should the AC be about the fastest boat? There is probably not a single racing trophy in any sport that is won by the fastest possible equipment. No one cheers less when a swimming gold medal, the Tour de France or F1 world title is presented just because they are not using the fastest possible equipment because almost everyone is smart enough to know that there are other factors that are much more important in sport than simple speed.

And, as TGBR and others have pointed out, if you want pure speed then the AC50 is not the right way to go about it. It's the "fastest boat" only if you ignore the faster ones.:wacko:  From some things Clean said it appears possible that the AC50 could sometimes be beaten by a kitefoiler which means that we are in the same situation, in some ways, as when 12 Metres could sometimes be beaten by a Hobie 16.

Oh, and as previously requested, would you mind telling us what other sports you enjoy? I bet that in all of them, the ultimate prize is run under rules that severely restrict performance, whether it's F1 or football.

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How about they race in VOR70s halfway through their 2021 VOR, that would ensure all boats were compliant with the requirement to cross oceans and would also have the benefit of weeding out any sissy sailors too scared to brave the deep blue!

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3 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

2 things stick out from this. First, the "fastest boat with the fastest sailors" was always the most stupid and baseless comment. The fastest boat is SailRocket and the fastest sailor is Paul Larsen. Everybody else is a distant second. Next, it is a totally false assumption that because ETNZ won, they had the best sailors. Anybody who thinks that one of the other top teams would not have been able to win in what was clearly the best boat is pretty unrealistic. ETNZ had the best design, although IIRC, they didn't achieve the highest top speed of the LV and AC.

There is no reason why an event or series for AC50's could be held and be successful. It could happen without having any relevance or impact on the AC. After all, there are regattas for old AC boats, so why not the AC50's. It would be a shame if they all ended up sitting on shore doing nothing. If the AC is as strong and significant as some on here say, why would the AC be threatened by such a series. It wouldn't.

Is such a series viable? I think it probably would be, although it would need some smart people to find a cost effective way of equalising performance. Would people want to race these boats? You bet. Would people like to see them sail at venues where we could all go and watch? You bet. Would it be any less interesting if the boats were made more equal? It certainly wouldn't be less spectacular. I think people are smart enough to know it wouldn't be the AC and maybe there would be a need to rename the boats so there is no mention of the AC. How about F50's? Put on an F50 regatta in the UK and I would be there in a flash. I think there is more than enough room in the sailing world for a series for those boats and I hope it happens. If it does, I would expect some AC sailors to take part, in addition to still sailing in the AC. As we have seen before, there is no need for anybody to be exclusively AC until the run up towards the end. There are certainly 2-3 years where it is possible to do other series so why not.

 

First of all its marketing 101, a tagline or catchphrase to promote your event in the mainstream. "The fastest boats and the best sailors" If you look at it, its not too far from the truth. Almost no one knows or cares about sail rocket or Paul Larsen. The worlds best sailors were present in Bermuda. The most decorated British sailor of all time, Ben Ainslie, the dominant 49er duo in Pete and Blair. The man who is considered one of the greatest Multihull sailors of all time Glenn Ashby. They are worlds greatest sailors.

Next is a totally true assumption that ETNZ are the best sailing team. Their success before, during and after the Americas Cup is testament to that. Those guys, and the skill, knowledge and input they brought to the design direction ETNZ went with was a key part of the overall program. Anyone who thinks that it was just the designers sitting in their little offices in front of their computers with no input what so ever from the sailors themselves is talking absolute crap.

Is such a series viable? No, why? Because as long as there is a boat out there of the same class rule, that was clearly much better, every other boat will always be second best. There is no cost effective way to keep a second best AC50 at the forefront of the technology curve as well as promoting a brand new event which has no history what so ever. How are you going to promote the series, by showing copyright Americas Cup puff videos? By pretending ETNZ never won the Americas Cup? Or even pretending they never existed? By calling the boats super 50's or something stupid like that? Remember, outside the Americas Cup, the AC50's never existed. And it remains to be seen whether they can still exist as "AC50's" after the cup. So if they were to do away with the "AC50" class name, and are not able to use any Americas Cup promotional material, including video and images, there is no promotion. So who's going to compete? The 5 teams who all lost in Bermuda? Like I said before, billionaires compete against each other, one goes rogue and starts a new series featuring the losers of the Americas Cup, the other enters the Americas Cup and has an opportunity to have his name written in the history books and be the best in his/ her aspect of the sport. ETNZ was by far the most innovative and dominant team in the AC50 class. Are they going to copy the ETNZ design? How are they going to promote the boats as being "championship material" The bikes proved a key part of the whole ETNZ package, and was also one of the most visually innovative features. Without at least installing bikes and Xbox controllers, no one is going to think those boats are anything except mediocre. If they do start some rogue series, it will be an admission that they 1) can not defeat New Zealand, and 2) are bitter that ETNZ did not agree to continue their vision (but really, why would they?) So no, a rogue series is not viable

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5 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Monos are from the beginning of humanity era, catamarans a few hundred years.

Foils on mono increase the speed of a few knots only, mainly downwind, foils on cats allow them to go 4X the wind speed

Do you want to watch a hundred million program boat be circled around by a 1 thousand dollar foiling kite ? Yep that would grasp my interest :)

The thing is, TC - it's not all, or only about speed. For me and probably many other sailors, it never has been.

And don't give me that shit about growing the spectator crowd. Fuck all of the Red Bull generation will ever be able to participate in yacht racing or cruising because of the expense. A good percentage of them can't even afford to buy their own homes these days. 

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"If you want to sail the newest craft, or the fastest craft for its size why are you sticking to foiling cats and not sailing a Sailrocket or a kitefoiler? I still cannot understand people who say "it's critical to sail as fast as possible" then sail something that doesn't sail as fast as possible. Why not practise what you essentially preach?"   The Jay

As usual you go asinine picky chosey. Sailrocket is a one way craft. Yes, world's fastest sailer but towed back to start run by a powerboat. The discussion is about windward. leeward and so on usual type of race course yet you bring up this nutty example. And I doubt a kitefoiler would beat ETNZ round a course either.

By the way, it's practice. You being a preachy teacher type.

 

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Preacher? You're the fanatic in the pulpit like some mullah of multis, slinging shit at the boats you don't happen to personally like. For you to abuse other boats so routinely and then accuse others of preaching is bizarre.       

Secondly, as usual you missed the point. Just like Sailrocket, the AC50 is only "the fastest boat" in a certain range of conditions. You happen to be believe that windward/leeward inshore racing in the AC50's wind range inshore is the best test, but the point is that is just one point in the spectrum - and Schuyler specifically said that he wanted to test boats with wider capabilities. 

Finally, since you want to be "asinine picky chosey" there shouldn't be a full stop after "windward" in "windward/leeward" and it should probably be "the start of the run". 

 

 

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I would think that the fact that TNZ sent it's top two New Zealand sailors off for a lap around the planet lasting the better part of a year, covering thousands of miles, is a pretty good indication that the next Cup will be in monohulls - either in the 60 foot range to dovetail in size with the Volvo and Vendee, or 90' to satisfy the Italians desire for 'the grand gesture'.

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12 minutes ago, pwormwood said:

I would think that the fact that TNZ sent it's top two New Zealand sailors off for a lap around the planet lasting the better part of a year, covering thousands of miles, is a pretty good indication that the next Cup will be in monohulls - either in the 60 foot range to dovetail in size with the Volvo and Vendee, or 90' to satisfy the Italians desire for 'the grand gesture'.

Thats a good point.  What Glenn Ashby does the next couple months could also be a good indicator in regards to boat type.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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15 hours ago, The Jay said:

...

Stinger's ideas seem to revolve around the assumption that faster is better in sailing ..

Yes, am in full agreement with the opinion that every single AC35 helm has expressed. 

The technology it takes to produce speed like that is excellent!

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17 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Sure, but if 'win the Cup' falls behind the higher priorities of the AC50-interested $Bs and other sailing sponsors who agreed to the FA then.. Who will bother to show up down in Auckland when they can instead run their own Best Sailors in the Fastest Boats event?

Push that line - tote that barge....

let's hope you are well compensated for your dreary spin

If your $B moves on - will you too

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8 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

The thing is, TC - it's not all, or only about speed. For me and probably many other sailors, it never has been.

 

It's also about sport. I was sailing yesterday in 25 kts gusts on a rough sea. Monos had reduced their sails while we were blowing all sails out at full speed, close to the limit on the reach, a pitch pole to finish, broken tiller, bruised muscles and sailing back depowering the boat.

That's not only speed, it's sport, fun, show.

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17 hours ago, maxmini said:

Its not how fast you are going that counts , its how fast you are going in comparison to the other guy :)

Thats what makes for competition .

That is so true, Max. 

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20 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Sure, but if 'win the Cup' falls behind the higher priorities of the AC50-interested $Bs and other sailing sponsors who agreed to the FA then.. Who will bother to show up down in Auckland when they can instead run their own Best Sailors in the Fastest Boats event?

WILL NOT HAPPEN. I repeat WILL NOT HAPPEN. The AC is the prize, the AC50'S were the means to achieving that prize (emphasis on WERE). Whatever Etnz chooses will be the emphasis only for as long as they hold the cup or any successful challenger continues to prefer that choice.

You can build yachts capable of 50 knots and they WILL NEVER get the same interest unless they are the AC class.

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15 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

That is so true, Max. 

Yup. Why the lead mines are so compelling for me is that you could have one mono "blitzing" past another but the boats remained in the same patch of water as each other for several minutes. With the beach cats, one small mistake (think that Orifice gybe in race 2) and the sailors need binoculars to see each other. Nuts!

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Can we please stop entertaining an idea of a Rogue series that will never happen. The Americas Cup is the Ultimate prize. And it should be treated as such, just the way it was by ETNZ. You want to do things your way, you don't cry and start something else and try and take everyone else down with you. You get better, you come back, and you win the cup back. End of story. No matter how much money you have, being the best is ALWAYS the priority. 

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Yes, am in full agreement with the opinion that every single AC35 helm has expressed. 

The technology it takes to produce speed like that is excellent!

The fact that they are fast sailors doesn't mean they know how best to run a contest in line with the AC's heritage and the modern marketing requirements. There is no more reason to think that being a good sailor makes you a good contest director than to think that the best contest director would make the best racer. Do you reckon that Steve Young, who arguably had the best-ever Superbowl performance, is the best man to run football?  Do you reckon that Mike Tyson should have run boxing?

Winning the biggest prize in one form of sport doesn't necessarily mean that you know what is best for that part of the sport. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, The Jay said:

The fact that they are fast sailors doesn't mean they know how best to run a contest in line with the AC's heritage and the modern marketing requirements. There is no more reason to think that being a good sailor makes you a good contest director than to think that the best contest director would make the best racer. Do you reckon that Steve Young, who arguably had the best-ever Superbowl performance, is the best man to run football?  Do you reckon that Mike Tyson should have run boxing?

Winning the biggest prize in one form of sport doesn't necessarily mean that you know what is best for that part of the sport. 

 

 

With the persons behind a possible other event they have enough money to hire the best organizers, even from the AC.

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13 minutes ago, The Jay said:

The fact that they are fast sailors doesn't mean they know how best to run a contest in line with the AC's heritage and the modern marketing requirements. There is no more reason to think that being a good sailor makes you a good contest director than to think that the best contest director would make the best racer. Do you reckon that Steve Young, who arguably had the best-ever Superbowl performance, is the best man to run football?  Do you reckon that Mike Tyson should have run boxing?

Winning the biggest prize in one form of sport doesn't necessarily mean that you know what is best for that part of the sport. 

 

 

And you are obviously the most worthy and general all round nautical expert for the job? Maybe send Grant an email stating your superiority?

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34 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

With the persons behind a possible other event they have enough money to hire the best organizers, even from the AC.

It's not just about the details of organisation. I should have used a different term than "running" the event. The point is that being a great athlete does not mean that you have the best idea of how to make an entire event viable and popular. The number of great sports legends who have gone bankrupt surely indicates the difference between being able to win at sport and being able to run a large commercial enterprise. Sports Illustrated claimed that 78-60% of NBA and NBL pros were bankrupt or under financial stress within a few years. Surely that shows the difference between winning a game and winning at business, and running a sporting contest like the AC is pretty much a business.

 

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26 minutes ago, Groucho Marx said:

And you are obviously the most worthy and general all round nautical expert for the job? Maybe send Grant an email stating your superiority?

No, and nothing I ever wrote claimed that.

And since you decided to start criticising grammar, the correct punctuation in that sentence would be "all-round". See http://grammarist.com/usage/all-around-all-round/

Bye bye, you're going on ignore.

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5 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It's also about sport. I was sailing yesterday in 25 kts gusts on a rough sea. Monos had reduced their sails while we were blowing all sails out at full speed, close to the limit on the reach, a pitch pole to finish, broken tiller, bruised muscles and sailing back depowering the boat.

That's not only speed, it's sport, fun, show.

Mono sailors enjoy fun, sport and (perhaps to a lesser extent) show - that's why they do it. It's physically easier to sail a Tornado in 25 knots than it is to sail a Laser in those conditions in many ways. Kiteboarders enjoy fun, sport and lots of show too.

The Tornado is an awesome boat, just like AC50s are awesome. It's great that you love the T. But just like you happen to prefer Tornadoes to newer, faster and more radical kiteboards, surely other people can prefer AC monos to newer, faster and more radical AC cats?

Good sailing and thanks for the discussion.

 

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5 minutes ago, The Jay said:

Mono sailors enjoy fun, sport and (perhaps to a lesser extent) show - that's why they do it. It's physically easier to sail a Tornado in 25 knots than it is to sail a Laser in those conditions in many ways. Kiteboarders enjoy fun, sport and lots of show too.

The Tornado is an awesome boat, just like AC50s are awesome. But just like you happen to prefer Tornadoes to newer, faster and more radical kiteboards, surely other people can prefer AC monos to newer, faster and more radical AC cats?

With a laser, capsizing is no real issue, easy to recover; with a Tornado it takes technique and strengh to put it back it is much more stressful in strong conditions.

I agree that some sailors may prefer slower mono but how many are they ? who are they ? how old are they ?

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No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. --- Sydney Tremayne ---

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21 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

With a laser, capsizing is no real issue, easy to recover; with a Tornado it takes technique and strengh to put it back it is much more stressful in strong conditions.

I agree that some sailors may prefer slower mono but how many are they ? who are they ? how old are they ?

I've done both. They are different physically but the Laser's probably harder. I'm amazed how physically easy the F18 is to get around the course in big wind compared to a Laser.

How many sailors prefer monos? Probably about 95% of them in most major sailing countries. In the USA and England there's only one cat class in the top 20 in popularity among small boats. There's just two in Australia - and in some major sailing countries most yachts are even more popular than small boats.

How old are they? Often very young - look at the number of youth who sail Radials, 420s and 29ers instead of the youth cat.

Who are they? Everyone from adrenalin-junky 18 Footer sailors down to old guys in Solos and kids in 420s.

The fact that lots of people prefer monos is surely just as reasonable as the fact that lots of people prefer cats to kiteboards, or motorcycles to cars. Even multihull designers like Irens, Farrier and Woods like monos better in some situations.

If you personally like multis that's great; so do I. That doesn't mean that our preferences are any better than that of some guy who sails an O-Jolle or races a Hanse 370, or some other guys who scream past our cats on kitefoilers and then jump 40' in the air. And surely our personal preferences for the AC are no more important than the preference of some guy who might want the Js to get back into the AC.

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

With the persons behind a possible other event they have enough money to hire the best organizers, even from the AC.

But they don't have enough money to buy the AC and THAT is the draw card.

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2 hours ago, MidPack said:

No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. --- Sydney Tremayne ---

"No woman wants to hear her husband's opinion. She just wants to hear her own opinion in a deeper voice." - Every man that's ever been married.

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5 hours ago, sclarke said:

Can we please stop entertaining an idea of a Rogue series that will never happen. The Americas Cup is the Ultimate prize. And it should be treated as such, just the way it was by ETNZ. You want to do things your way, you don't cry and start something else and try and take everyone else down with you. You get better, you come back, and you win the cup back. End of story. No matter how much money you have, being the best is ALWAYS the priority. 

For sure the Cup has history and allure but it may not be that important to many outside of the NZ these days.

Like with the J's, Maxi's and other high priced series, it's perfectly conceivable that some $B's would prefer to run a 'Fastest Boats' on the planet series. For any motivation they choose to take from it.

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12 hours ago, WetHog said:

Thats a good point.  What Glenn Ashby does the next couple months could also be a good indicator in regards to boat type.

WetHog  :ph34r:

So what do you make of him doing an extended trip with his young family around the beaches and outback of Australia? Dune buggies?:lol:

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33 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

For sure the Cup has history and allure but it may not be that important to many outside of the NZ these days.

Like with the J's, Maxi's and other high priced series, it's perfectly conceivable that some $B's would prefer to run a 'Fastest Boats' on the planet series. For any motivation they choose to take from it.

The Cup is as important as it always was. Just because New Zealand won and hold the trophy does not mean it is no longer worth competing for. That is such a laughable statement. A rogue series is nothing but wishful thinking from people whose team lost fair and square to a better team. No billionaire is going to literally waste their fortune on something that will give absolutely no return what so ever. Your $B's are non existent.

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I am at a loss to understand all this talk of "rogue series" or competition from an AC50 series. You have to be seriously insecure if you think that. Nobody would ever claim that running a series for the old AC50's was meant as competition for the AC. I don't believe that would be the intention of any organiser either. When TNZ organised the IACC event during the lead up to the DOG match, did anybody think that was there to undermine the AC? I don't think so. Do any of the current events in old AC boats undemine the AC? Of course they don't. Events in the sailing world rarely see each other as in competition with each other. The Volvo doesn't compete against the AC or, maybe even more relevant, against another ROW race such as the Vende Globe. 

If there are enough people who want to put up the money for a series involving the AC50's, good on them. I don't think they would be doing it instead of an AC campaign. They would be doing instead of doing nothing as I think the decision to enter the Ac and such a series isn't an either/or one. Torbjörn Törnqvist isn't going to enter AC36 for a number of reasons but he loves the 50's so why shouldn't he want to be involved in racing them again, seeing how much money he has sunk into one. Maybe as it wouldn't be the AC he could actually sail on board during racing. How cool would that be? If I had the money, that's something I would want to do and I wouldn't care less if it wasn't part of the AC.

It seems to me that certain people on this forum do feel insecure about the team's decision to go for a monohull. Although they might not realise it, it's clear that they feel the need to "defend" what many see as a backward step for the cup. I guess the same would have happened when they changed to the 12 metre rule, because that was certainly a backward step. What is missed is that it doesn't matter. The cup will survive. It isn't about a popularity contest. You only need 1 challenger to keep it going and you should get more than that.

As for the argument that only a few sail cats and most sail monos and this justifies choosing a mono, I call BS. Most sailors don't care about the AC, whatever boats are selected. There is little doubt that these foiling cats have improved the profile of the sport even if it hasn't increased the overall audience. i have never had so many non sailing people comment on these "unbelievable flying boats". I never heard a thing about the IACC boats. It has grabbed the imagination, but that has not been leveraged. I am unsure whether that is simply due to incompetence or whether the reality is that people will watch sailing for only brief periods and that the novelty wears off quickly. Based on comments made, you would expect saloon car racing to be way more popular than single seater for spectators.

In the end, the AC will retain its prestige in whatever boats they choose and no other series will change that. The rest of the debate is meaningless

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6 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

With a laser, capsizing is no real issue, easy to recover; with a Tornado it takes technique and strengh to put it back it is much more stressful in strong conditions.

I agree that some sailors may prefer slower mono but how many are they ? who are they ? how old are they ?

Its hard to pin them down to get a count as they are mostly all out sailing :)

Some of our more prolific posters here , if by chance they were ever actually on a race boat , heard the start gun go off they would most likely hit the deck and think it was a " float by " .

The AC used to be about racing and was mostly followed by racers and sailors .

Now not so much which is why it has lost the prestige and relevance to the sailing community  it once had. 

When there are more J boats on the start line than AC teams you have to wonder whats next . 

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2 hours ago, maxmini said:

Its hard to pin them down to get a count as they are mostly all out sailing :)

Some of our more prolific posters here , if by chance they were ever actually on a race boat , heard the start gun go off they would most likely hit the deck and think it was a " float by " .

The AC used to be about racing and was mostly followed by racers and sailors .

Now not so much which is why it has lost the prestige and relevance to the sailing community  it once had. 

When there are more J boats on the start line than AC teams you have to wonder whats next . 

Osama Bin Salin? 

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9 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

With a laser, capsizing is no real issue, easy to recover; with a Tornado it takes technique and strengh to put it back it is much more stressful in strong conditions.

I agree that some sailors may prefer slower mono but how many are they ? who are they ? how old are they ?

Look into any marina or boat harbour in the country.

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5 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Based on comments made, you would expect saloon car racing to be way more popular than single seater for spectators.

Saloon cars can be more popular for spectators than single seaters - NASCAR's bigger than Indycar. NASCAR'S biggest event gets twice as many viewers and several times as many live spectators as Indycar's prime event. When they go to the same places the NASCAR crowd is much bigger. F1 can't be compared to saloon cars because you can't compare an international event that visits countries once a year to domestic saloon car series that have many more races. Le Mans gets more live spectators than any F1 event.

And just saying "its BS" isn't presenting a very logically compelling argument. Many sailors did care about the AC. If you're a Brit under about 45 you've never really experienced a time in which GB had an entry in a monohull AC. Ask Kiwis and Aussie sailors whether they noticed when their countries were racing the AC in monohulls - the answer for many years was a resounding yes. And why ignore the fact that the most popular participant sports seem to be the ones where the legendary competitors in the legendary events use gear and rules that are pretty similar to the ones the weekend warriors use?

 

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9 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

So what do you make of him doing an extended trip with his young family around the beaches and outback of Australia? Dune buggies?:lol:

Vacation?

WetHog  :ph34r:

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The central question is what is the optimal gap between what sailors own and what pros, specifically AC in this case - can the difference be too large such that most sailors just can't relate to the boat & format at the leading edge. And the ancillary question is what boat & format might also attract the attention of non-sailors, potential new participants - can two birds be attained?

NASCAR and F1 attract lots of people who drive ordinary cars, the gap between NASCAR and F1 vs ordinary cars is night and day. OTOH, professional golf seems to at least resemble the game most ordinary golfers play, both use clubs and play on 18-hole courses where par is the same within a few strokes. Whether an AC50 is just too far from the 4-6KTSB monos most people own/crew is an open question, we don't know yet, and neither does anyone here despite the attempts at "facts."

What people own isn't a direct indication of what they want to see at the leading edge of the sport. It's more likely what they can afford to buy & keep and/or what they have affordable access to. Multis are more expensive to buy and maintain, most people own monos because it's all most can afford. And though juniors may sail Radials, 420's and 29ers more than other classes, who's to say most of them wouldn't be on sailing Moths if they had access and could afford to.

We drive Toyotas, but we'd rather have a BMW & a Porsche, and I'd rather watch F1 racing than anything less. What cars most people own has little to do with the motorsports most people want to see. Same with sailing, but is there a limit to the disparity? Maybe.

Still looking forward to what the RNZYS comes up with. Here's hoping it'll end some of the circular discussions, probably not...

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Love when people bring NASCAR, of all things, into a sailboat discussion.  Especially when they call what is driven in NASCAR a "saloon car".  Comical shit.

Anyway, have any of you seen a NASCAR race lately?  Not a lot of butts in the seats.  One popular theory as to why is because the cars are to OD for the fans liking.  The only thing that differentiates cars in NASCAR from each other are the headlight, taillight and grill stickers and engine blocks.  Kind of like an AC50 where the only way to tell the boats apart were team/sponsor stickers and different foils.  

Upon further review, I wouldn't mind the AC being more like NASCAR.  Think about it.  In F1 the cars are crazy technical, cost a shit load of money, you can count on one hand how many cars are competitive race to race, are extremely fast but more times than not the race is decided by qualifying position.  In NASCAR, the cars are not as complicated, NASCAR cars are cheaper than F1 cars, you can count on 2 to 3 hands how many cars are competitive race to race, more than fast enough and races are rarely determined by qualifying position.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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17 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

For sure the Cup has history and allure but it may not be that important to many outside of the NZ these days.

Like with the J's, Maxi's and other high priced series, it's perfectly conceivable that some $B's would prefer to run a 'Fastest Boats' on the planet series. For any motivation they choose to take from it.

Clearly, some $B are doing just this with the J's. Too bad they chose dinosaurs which drag half the fuckin ocean around with them, instead of modern planing and foil assisted hulls which are actually quick. I think you'll find this is the space the AC36 will fill. As they say, Stinger, "watch this space".

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3 hours ago, WetHog said:

Love when people bring NASCAR, of all things, into a sailboat discussion.  Especially when they call what is driven in NASCAR a "saloon car".  Comical shit.

Anyway, have any of you seen a NASCAR race lately?  Not a lot of butts in the seats.  One popular theory as to why is because the cars are to OD for the fans liking.  The only thing that differentiates cars in NASCAR from each other are the headlight, taillight and grill stickers and engine blocks.  Kind of like an AC50 where the only way to tell the boats apart were team/sponsor stickers and different foils.  

Upon further review, I wouldn't mind the AC being more like NASCAR.  Think about it.  In F1 the cars are crazy technical, cost a shit load of money, you can count on one hand how many cars are competitive race to race, are extremely fast but more times than not the race is decided by qualifying position.  In NASCAR, the cars are not as complicated, NASCAR cars are cheaper than F1 cars, you can count on 2 to 3 hands how many cars are competitive race to race, more than fast enough and races are rarely determined by qualifying position.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Wethog, the use of the term "saloon car" is just an example of different nationalities using different terms for the same sort of thing. Yes, there are problems with NASCAR's falling popularity but Indycar and F1 seem to have even bigger problems.

Agree with you about the reasons why a NASCAR (or V8 Supercar/Tourenwagen/Touring Car) model could be the best one to follow.

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16 minutes ago, The Jay said:

Wethog, the use of the term "saloon car" is just an example of different nationalities using different terms for the same sort of thing. Yes, there are problems with NASCAR's falling popularity but Indycar and F1 seem to have even bigger problems.

Agree with you about the reasons why a NASCAR (or V8 Supercar/Tourenwagen/Touring Car) model could be the best one to follow.

Sorry, big Top Gear fan, not the current version, and when I read "Saloon Car" I get an image of James May tooling around in a Jaguar sedan.  Not very NASCAR. ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

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7 hours ago, MidPack said:

The central question is what is the optimal gap between what sailors own and what pros, specifically AC in this case - can the difference be too large such that most sailors just can't relate to the boat & format at the leading edge. And the ancillary question is what boat & format might also attract the attention of non-sailors, potential new participants - can two birds be attained?

NASCAR and F1 attract lots of people who drive ordinary cars, the gap between NASCAR and F1 vs ordinary cars is night and day. OTOH, professional golf seems to at least resemble the game most ordinary golfers play, both use clubs and play on 18-hole courses where par is the same within a few strokes. Whether an AC50 is just too far from the 4-6KTSB monos most people own/crew is an open question, we don't know yet, and neither does anyone here despite the attempts at "facts."

What people own isn't a direct indication of what they want to see at the leading edge of the sport. It's more likely what they can afford to buy & keep and/or what they have affordable access to. Multis are more expensive to buy and maintain, most people own monos because it's all most can afford. And though juniors may sail Radials, 420's and 29ers more than other classes, who's to say most of them wouldn't be on sailing Moths if they had access and could afford to.

We drive Toyotas, but we'd rather have a BMW & a Porsche, and I'd rather watch F1 racing than anything less. What cars most people own has little to do with the motorsports most people want to see. Same with sailing, but is there a limit to the disparity? Maybe.

Still looking forward to what the RNZYS comes up with. Here's hoping it'll end some of the circular discussions, probably not...

Sure, there are few hard and fast facts to guide us. However, looking at the sports you brought up shows that the one that follows the model where the pros use the same sort of kit as the weekend warriors is vastly more popular in terms of participation than the one where the pros use something the average person has no experience with. When that example is reinforced by similar examples in other sports and inside sailing, we can at least say that there is a trend.

Multis aren't necessarily more expensive, depending on your yardstick. A cat is normally much cheaper than a skiff of similar speed and length, but in some countries the skiffs are more popular and therefore it cannot just an issue of expense. Nor can it be critical mass or history, since cat racing was enormous in the '70s and '80s. The same applies to windsurfers and kitefoilers - they are faster than dinghies but less popular among racers. So it can't be a simple case of the amount of cash available.

As a high performance cat sailor/owner and someone who has owned a bunch of high performance singlehanders I'd say that most kids DON'T want to get into really high performance classes. They see many of the people who do spending a lot of time working on kit and crashing it, and they know that pure speed isn't that important to them. I'd have loved to get more kids and adults into the high-performance stuff I sail but the simple fact is that they don't care.

Okay. a lot of kids would like to sail Moths (although most of them didn't even when the Moth was cheaper and much faster than a Laser) but what happens to their interest when they are told that the future of the sport lies in the sort of boat that, as you say, many of them do not have the money to get or the access to?  Does it help the sport to present an image that says to kids "this is the exciting future and the elite end of the sport, and you don't have the time and money to get into it" or does that hurt the sport?  Is it better to present an image that says "this is the elite end of the sport and you can get into it if you want"?  

You're right, we don't have hard and fast answers to many of these questions. Much of what you seem to think to be me pretending that I have the answers is actually me trying to show that none of us has the answers. What we do have, though, is some strong clues.

 

 

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This is proof, good coverage and big mono's can be just as exciting as good coverage and small cats. 

 

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22 minutes ago, sclarke said:

This is proof, good coverage and big mono's can be just as exciting as good coverage and small cats. 

 

Except fleet racing is not match racing and nobody wants to listen to MR calling the shots for his main trimmer and bitching to IM about a ratshit start.

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12 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Except fleet racing is not match racing and nobody wants to listen to MR calling the shots for his main trimmer and bitching to IM about a ratshit start.

Fair point about match racing v fleet racing. And Yes, Mark Richards can be a bit of a dick sometimes. but I tend to think the interaction of the crews on board makes it seem more real. You can actually hear the stress levels on the boats. You can actually hear the open, frank and honest discussion going on. If you had a terrible start, you should be able to say it. If that means letting out a few expletives, then so be it. Since bout 2007, the helmsmen have been wearing head mounted microphones, which, granted, look pretty cool, and are very much a visual example of some of the basic communication technology on the boats, but, for me, they don't show the true pressure levels, and stress levels of having to race a boat and communicate with the guys around you when you're under pressure. For most sailors, we don't get to stand at the wheel and interact quietly with the guy next to us, most of the time, the pressure of the race, and the noise of the sheets, the sails flapping and the rigs under load means you really need to shout to get things done, thats the reality of sailing. Even Kenny Read, with all technology on board Comanche has to yell at his guys to communicate. That, in my opinion is one huge part of what is missing in the Americas Cup. The Americas Cup is not "Real" to a lot of people. And not just in terms of the boats sailed, but in many other aspects as well. 

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On 8/23/2017 at 7:32 AM, Sailbydate said:

Clearly, some $B are doing just this with the J's. Too bad they chose dinosaurs which drag half the fuckin ocean around with them, instead of modern planing and foil assisted hulls which are actually quick. I think you'll find this is the space the AC36 will fill. As they say, Stinger, "watch this space".

I see the J's as the same as the marquee car clubs (Porche, Ferraris, etc) where the owners race among themselves with a strictly no-touch rule: it's fun for the owners, but the spectators don't give a fuck about the results...

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Omfg, Indiot is still posting his same years-old insanity crap? Lmao, NZ breeds a few pretty crazy ones.

IMG_1874.PNG.ce599978573a12b58376ddbe942b989f.PNG

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

Fair point about match racing v fleet racing. And Yes, Mark Richards can be a bit of a dick sometimes. but I tend to think the interaction of the crews on board makes it seem more real. You can actually hear the stress levels on the boats. You can actually hear the open, frank and honest discussion going on. If you had a terrible start, you should be able to say it. If that means letting out a few expletives, then so be it. Since bout 2007, the helmsmen have been wearing head mounted microphones, which, granted, look pretty cool, and are very much a visual example of some of the basic communication technology on the boats, but, for me, they don't show the true pressure levels, and stress levels of having to race a boat and communicate with the guys around you when you're under pressure. For most sailors, we don't get to stand at the wheel and interact quietly with the guy next to us, most of the time, the pressure of the race, and the noise of the sheets, the sails flapping and the rigs under load means you really need to shout to get things done, thats the reality of sailing. Even Kenny Read, with all technology on board Comanche has to yell at his guys to communicate. That, in my opinion is one huge part of what is missing in the Americas Cup. The Americas Cup is not "Real" to a lot of people. And not just in terms of the boats sailed, but in many other aspects as well. 

Except for ETNZ who as has been usual for them in AC's turned their mikes off despite the rules, the many open mikes off the other boats provided excellent insight into how the communication process worked. The broadcasts gave them some airtime but not near enough for my liking. Fortunately, the app enabled the opportunity to select it regardless, something I did a lot of.

It's not the 'stress' that you relish or the implied aggression and frustration that I look forward to (cage fighting is a different sport, have you tried that?) it is for me instead about getting keen insights into the communication and decision making process - which at the AC level is normally pretty excellent.

An example of looking for cage-fighting out of AC35 is those who relish in the idea that Slingsby's occasionally visible frustrations were  directed at JS out of aggression, as if to be angry at JS about moves JS had made, when any normal observer and close listener would not have taken it that way at all. JS had a lot on (too much, maybe) but he for certain followed TS's tactics calls - for better or worse sometimes.

PB is extremely f'ing good but had JS been as free to play things tactically as what PB was afforded to, it could have been a closer Final even given that the racing was in ETNZ's sweet spot foil-wise.

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6 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Except for ETNZ who as has been usual for them in AC's turned their mikes off despite the rules, the many open mikes off the other boats provided excellent insight into how the communication process worked. The broadcasts gave them some airtime but not near enough for my liking.

It's not the 'stress' you relish or the implied aggression and frustration that I look forward to (cage fighting is a different sport, have you tried that?) it is for me about getting insights into the communication and decision making process - which at the AC level is normally pretty excellent.

Haha ETNZ had their mic's on the whole time, they just stuck to the bare essentials. You could clearly hear Glen and Pete communicating, when they needed to, as well as Andy Maloney giving feedback on wind direction when needed. Even Blair Tuke spoke when he needed the boat to speed up, or slow down to maintain ride height There was no unnecessary talking. Just what needed to be said at the time. ETNZ only did what they needed to, to win the Cup, which proved to be another effective innovation from ETNZ which was different to what had been seen before. They weren't interested in "giving insight" to the fans. 

I enjoy hearing the stress situations in the Sydney Hobart start. Rico can be heard contradicting himself a lot, berating, as well as praising his crew. David Witt can be heard, most of the time berating his crew, and Ken Read can be heard giving instructions, and also asking for input as well. Its interesting to see exactly how the crew and the Skipper deal with those stress situations. There are no head mounted mic's, just good old fashioned belt the message out as loud as you can. Thats what I enjoy. 

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^ Yes we did hear some comms off the ETNZ boat but it is a fact that at times there were none to be picked up, described later by ETNZ as 'technical problems.' There is also a history of it dating back to both AC34 and AC32.

No big deal to me, except maybe for the decision to be 'throwing the ball as far as you can' through the rules on also that count. What loopholes will be in the coming, self-written Protocol and DR? Will the same disregard for the 'intention' be taken again, to be later described and loudly advertised as 'Kiwi innovation'? The same old Plastic Fantasic gene pool all over again but a generation later?

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ Yes we did hear some comms off the ETNZ boat but it is a fact that at times there were none to be picked up, described later by ETNZ as 'technical problems.' There is also a history of it dating back to both AC34 and AC32.

No big deal to me, except maybe for the decision to be 'throwing the ball as far as you can' through the rules on also that count. What loopholes will be in the coming, self-written Protocol and DR? Will the same disregard for the 'intention' be taken again, to be later described and loudly advertised as 'Kiwi innovation'? The same old Plastic Fantasic gene pool all over again but a generation later?

Cmon Stinger, get real about this.

Yes, there will be loop holes but there will be minimal to no advantage is "engineering a loop hole" because:

 

1. All the teams have very smart peeps.

2. Luna Rossa will have been there for the last 2 months helping tie down the class rule.

With regards to "plastic fantastic", exactly what is your problem with that? It was measured and found to be compliant despite all the douche baggery that Dennis committed.

So much so that in the next multi challnger cup all the boats (except a wood Russian boat that never got completed IIRC) were plastic.

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On 19/08/2017 at 10:48 AM, Team_GBR said:

I think Dalton is being screwed by people above him and he will carry the blame when it isn't a success

I remember your pre AC match predictions.

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On 19/08/2017 at 7:48 PM, A Class Sailor said:

Ask anybody outside of ETNZ and they will tell you that they would much rather live another cup cycle in Bermuda than in Auckland.

Except Dennis Connor.

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1 hour ago, DayTripper said:

I remember your pre AC match predictions.

Then you must be something very special because I didn't make any other than BAR was screwed. What you should remember is me stating that ETNZ were late with their boat and had less sailing time than the other leading contenders. The fact they won doesn't change that. It just shows how good their boat concept was.

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54 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Then you must be something very special because I didn't make any other than BAR was screwed. What you should remember is me stating that ETNZ were late with their boat and had less sailing time than the other leading contenders. The fact they won doesn't change that. It just shows how good their boat concept was.

Ahem...a bit of revisionist BS there. You were the one who berubbished your own Team_GBR BAR and went all orgasmic over Artemis full of your Olympic rock star sailors, and how they would be the Challenger. You didn't give ETNZ any chance because in your mind they had spent waaaaaay less time on the Bermuda waters with its "different salinity levels"...

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Is this what the next America's Cup boats may look like? 

Last updated 10:42, August 24 2017

  • The first mockup of the new foiling monohulls to be sailed in the 2019-20 Volvo Ocean Race has been unveiled in Lisbon, ...

 

The revolutionary 60-foot boat is designed by Emirates Team New Zealand designer Guillaume Verdier.

A design image of the new foiling monohull to be used in the 2019-20 Volvo Ocean Race.
VOLVO OCEAN RACE

A design image of the new foiling monohull to be used in the 2019-20 Volvo Ocean Race.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/96097131/is-this-what-the-next-americas-cup-boats-may-look-like

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39 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

Is this what the next America's Cup boats may look like? 

Last updated 10:42, August 24 2017

  • The first mockup of the new foiling monohulls to be sailed in the 2019-20 Volvo Ocean Race has been unveiled in Lisbon, ...

 

The revolutionary 60-foot boat is designed by Emirates Team New Zealand designer Guillaume Verdier.

A design image of the new foiling monohull to be used in the 2019-20 Volvo Ocean Race.
VOLVO OCEAN RACE

A design image of the new foiling monohull to be used in the 2019-20 Volvo Ocean Race.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/96097131/is-this-what-the-next-americas-cup-boats-may-look-like

Hmm these press releases seem to indicate to me that ac50 cats are not very likely. Time will tell what ETNZ decide opps sorry what prada decides. 

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6 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Then you must be something very special because I didn't make any other than BAR was screwed. What you should remember is me stating that ETNZ were late with their boat and had less sailing time than the other leading contenders. The fact they won doesn't change that. It just shows how good their boat concept was.

And how absolutely spot on their strategy was to keep their "innovations" under wraps, for as long as possible. 

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17 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

Is this what the next America's Cup boats may look like? 

Last updated 10:42, August 24 2017

  • The first mockup of the new foiling monohulls to be sailed in the 2019-20 Volvo Ocean Race has been unveiled in Lisbon, ...

 

The revolutionary 60-foot boat is designed by Emirates Team New Zealand designer Guillaume Verdier.

A design image of the new foiling monohull to be used in the 2019-20 Volvo Ocean Race.
VOLVO OCEAN RACE

A design image of the new foiling monohull to be used in the 2019-20 Volvo Ocean Race.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/96097131/is-this-what-the-next-americas-cup-boats-may-look-like

"It's going to be a very cool boat; imagine coming into the finish, in a harbour in 20 knots of breeze and you are going to see this thing fully airborne, foiling, at 35 to 40 knots."

Really?

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Would be quite different steering from that spot much nearer the center of the boat . Would make for some closer crosses as the helmsman would be able to gauge where the end of his boat is a lot easier than from a more traditional location near the stern. 

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On 8/1/2017 at 4:19 AM, Indio said:

Monos will extend the shelf life of the 40+ helmsmen - Jimmy, Ainslie, Barker, but might test the versatility of the young guns like Burling, Outteridge, etc.

Santiago Lange won Olympic gold in catamarans at age 55.

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12 hours ago, McGyver said:

Santiago Lange won Olympic gold in catamarans at age 55.

Yes, he won on the fastest boats at the Olympics where a knowledge of foiling was a real benefit. And he is going again with the new foiling Nacra 17's.

The age argument is both ignorant and stupid.

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