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Kleen Breeze, a 60+ foot Harryproa, is doing its first sea trials. It features a novel combination of unstayed wing masts in schooner configuration and two bidirectional Speer foil rudder boards.  Looking very promising so far. 

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We just made the trip motoring at the start with no wind and ending the day in 25 knots. Most pics and videos taken when doing around 9 knots in 15 knots of wind on a downwind broad reach.

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http://us14.campaign-archive1.com/?u=8bd3efb7a8899110315782e1e&id=72a38a4480

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Construction has taken approximately 6 years with Robin project managing part time when he was on leave from work. He hired a main boat builder, which eventually grew into a team of 3 by 2016. Thus far, Robin has spent US $210,000 (including $24k of lithium batteries). He estimates a further $12k to launch her into the water.

 

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I just learned that Kleen Breeze is being fitted out for charter. I guess that would be the perfect boat to charter out and get the hang of shunting with the schooner masts and double bidirectional rudders while waiting for the delivery of the newest C60 Harryproa (with hull #1 being built at Ballotta) as it shares the same basic configuration. C60-019.jpg

 

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Last year's end the skipper went missing. The police suspects the man fell overboard. Searches were abandoned about a week later.

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1 hour ago, lucdekeyser said:

Last year's end the skipper went missing. The police suspects the man fell overboard. Searches were abandoned about a week later.

That's a weird story, so I looked it up:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5221573/Missing-British-man-feared-fallen-sea.html

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Missing British man, 65, is feared to have fallen into the sea and drowned while sailing alone after a boat is found empty off Portugal

  • Man has been missing since Tuesday, when wife spoke to him through email
  • Empty boat called Kleen Breeze was found near Culatra in Faro, Portugal
  • A robe was found trapped beneath the vessel and a computer was switched on
  • The boat is owned by a man named Robin Warde, according to sailing news site

 

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I’m going to let the cat out of the bag here...

im flying to Portugal in a couple of days to meet Robin’s widow and look at  this crazy cool boat, with the intention of buying her.... BIG changes for me if this goes down!

B420453C-9F41-44B5-87EA-79D9739A062D.jpeg

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interesting boats...

is there an overhead video - from a drone or something - that shows one of these shunting?

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As far as I know there are no public video's yet showing a schooner harryproa shunt.

This drawing shows the interplay between the two sails and the two rudders in a standard shunt. 

Somewhere there was a picture series of Elementarry , the early testbed of a schooner harryproa, shunting.

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3 minutes ago, lucdekeyser said:

As far as I know there are no public video's yet showing a schooner harryproa shunt.

 

seems like something he would get out there right away if seeking broader acceptance of the concept

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34 minutes ago, us7070 said:

 

seems like something he would get out there right away if seeking broader acceptance of the concept

Agreed. If I end up with this thing, I will most definitely be documenting my experience. 

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Kleen Breeze is also the first of its kind with bidirectional rudders.

Previous cruiser models carried most often an aero-rig with fully rotating rudders like in the Blind Date (now Compaen).

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4 hours ago, Solarbri said:

I’m going to let the cat out of the bag here...

im flying to Portugal in a couple of days to meet Robin’s widow and look at  this crazy cool boat, with the intention of buying her.... BIG changes for me if this goes down!

B420453C-9F41-44B5-87EA-79D9739A062D.jpeg

Good luck.  I too would be curious to hear/see some factual reports and videos of its sailing performance.  Admire your adventurous spirit re boat designs.  Hope it works out for you.

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6 hours ago, Solarbri said:

I’m going to let the cat out of the bag here...

im flying to Portugal in a couple of days to meet Robin’s widow and look at  this crazy cool boat, with the intention of buying her.... BIG changes for me if this goes down!

B420453C-9F41-44B5-87EA-79D9739A062D.jpeg

I wanted to do that myself :(

Robin gave me a tour of the boat once, a few months before it was launched. As a matter of fact, that was almost exactly one year before the tragedy... It was around new years, 16/17. And I had no idea until recently when I found this thread. :(

I thought the boat was a real work of art. Strip planked in western red cedar. Beautiful round shapes.

Good luck! and let me know if you need one or two people for crew when you sail her... =)

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On 16/4/2018 at 12:17 PM, Solarbri said:

Agreed. If I end up with this thing, I will most definitely be documenting my experience. 

It amazes me how little meaningful video you can find about harryproas... people doing something out of the ordinary usually posts a video

Solarbri, good luck, there will be many people watching

 

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Thanks guys. The one thing I don’t have is $$$. BUT, I do seem to have a shit ton of magic luck that follows me around. I think between me selling everything I own, and with the help of some outside financiers who are rooting hard for me, Kleen Breeze will be mine. I will be documenting our exisistence together! If we get together. 

I missed my flight today from London to Faro, so I won’t get there til tomorrow morning, only after spending more unnecessary money, and another night on an airport floor. Oh joy. Glad I’m not in my 70’s. 

I’m scheduled to meet up with Robin’s widow, Merlene, and a fellow who was involved in the build, this Saturday for a tour of the boat.  So excited, in a “groggy, been on airplanes, airports and buses for the past 30 hours with another 10 to go kinda feeling”...

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Solarbri,

Hope it works out.

Sailplane,

Not sure what you mean by "meaningful".  Harryproas are safer, easier to build and sail, faster and cost less than cats and tris.   The following videos etc give meaning to these claims.

A 3.5 ton $350,000, 50' cruiser sailing effortlessly at wind speed with no extras https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA&t=254s  in 10 and 15 knots of breeze under main and jib.  It also shows the spray and drag from the first generation bows and rudder mounts.  Both are much cleaner on the latest versions, eg http://harryproa.com/?p=1747 none of which are sailing yet.  

Kleen Breeze sailing at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIFDforLxBY&t=4s .  Not much breeze, but there is a description of sailing in 25 knots at http://harryproa.com/?p=562.    20 minutes of hands off steering without an autopilot is more meaningful than most multis.

 Gps track and footage of a home built and modified 60'ter,  https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=1fsxnaYi-PM sailing at 17 knots (1 minute average) in 18-20 breeze, also with no extras.   An explanation of how and why at http://harryproa.com/?p=129 and https://au.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/harryproa/info    Look for posts by Rick Willoughby.

The first 50 launched being sailed and shunted by a group of sight impaired first time sailors in Holland, something it has been doing for 10 years.  At 13.00 minutes it shows  an 8 second shunt in 20 knots and a couple of longer ones earlier on.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wftyqI2aJlo&t=3s   Also with first gen rudders and bows.

A home built 25'ter being comfortably cruised up and down the rugged, windy West Australian coast, solo.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP2cYwi-f2I  

A step on the way to a foiling version https://vimeo.com/252480285   and  a crude self righting model https://vimeo.com/257852827

A folding harry  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xVNGXqGPtE  in New Zealand.

No video, but a description of an overloaded 40'ter with neophyte crew weathering a 45 knot gale while crossing from Australia to New Zealand at http://harryproa.com/?p=1759

 

There are a bunch of build photos, costings, explanations and other boats at www.harryproa.com and a pretty comprehensive list of all the failures, screw ups, ideas and thinking that lead us to where we are now at https://au.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/harryproa/info  

If that is not enough, ask me specific questions and I will do my best to answer them. 

 

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8 hours ago, harryproa said:

If that is not enough, ask me specific questions and I will do my best to answer them. 

 

i asked for something pretty specific up above...

i wanted to see some sort of a video - preferably from a drone high above - of what happens when one of these 2 masted proas tacks or gybes. if i understand correctly, it is called "shunting"...

 

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8 hours ago, harryproa said:

Solarbri,

Hope it works out.

Sailplane,

Not sure what you mean by "meaningful".  Harryproas are safer, easier to build and sail, faster and cost less than cats and tris.   The following videos etc give meaning to these claims.

A 3.5 ton $350,000, 50' cruiser sailing effortlessly at wind speed with no extras https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA&t=254s  in 10 and 15 knots of breeze under main and jib.  It also shows the spray and drag from the first generation bows and rudder mounts.  Both are much cleaner on the latest versions, eg http://harryproa.com/?p=1747 none of which are sailing yet.  

Kleen Breeze sailing at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIFDforLxBY&t=4s .  Not much breeze, but there is a description of sailing in 25 knots at http://harryproa.com/?p=562.    20 minutes of hands off steering without an autopilot is more meaningful than most multis.

 Gps track and footage of a home built and modified 60'ter,  https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=1fsxnaYi-PM sailing at 17 knots (1 minute average) in 18-20 breeze, also with no extras.   An explanation of how and why at http://harryproa.com/?p=129 and https://au.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/harryproa/info    Look for posts by Rick Willoughby.

The first 50 launched being sailed and shunted by a group of sight impaired first time sailors in Holland, something it has been doing for 10 years.  At 13.00 minutes it shows  an 8 second shunt in 20 knots and a couple of longer ones earlier on.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wftyqI2aJlo&t=3s   Also with first gen rudders and bows.

A home built 25'ter being comfortably cruised up and down the rugged, windy West Australian coast, solo.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP2cYwi-f2I  

A step on the way to a foiling version https://vimeo.com/252480285   and  a crude self righting model https://vimeo.com/257852827

A folding harry  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xVNGXqGPtE  in New Zealand.

No video, but a description of an overloaded 40'ter with neophyte crew weathering a 45 knot gale while crossing from Australia to New Zealand at http://harryproa.com/?p=1759

 

There are a bunch of build photos, costings, explanations and other boats at www.harryproa.com and a pretty comprehensive list of all the failures, screw ups, ideas and thinking that lead us to where we are now at https://au.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/harryproa/info  

If that is not enough, ask me specific questions and I will do my best to answer them. 

 

Harryproa, by meaningful I meant that when I searched your website and YT for videos of your proas, most videos where of experimental or construction phases, little wind, not sailing, not shunting, but maybe I didn´t do the search right

thanks for the collection, I will check out those videos during the weekend

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GO SOLARBRI! Good luck, can’t wait to hear about your trip!

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13 hours ago, us7070 said:

 

i asked for something pretty specific up above...

i wanted to see some sort of a video - preferably from a drone high above - of what happens when one of these 2 masted proas tacks or gybes. if i understand correctly, it is called "shunting"...

 

Nothing from a drone, sorry.  Not that there would be much to see.  The boom(s) swing from one end to the other, the boat takes off in the opposite direction, while luffing up onto the new course.  Same as a twin tip kite board.  There is an animation at http://harryproa.com/?p=1910 

On the earlier boats, the rudders rotated through 180 degrees as well as the rig.  These days we are using Tom Speer's proa sections http://www.basiliscus.com/ProaSections/ProaIndex.html which work in both directions.  Consequently, the rudders only rotate 20-30 degrees during a shunt.  As the rudders are fore and aft the boat luffs far quicker than a conventional multi.  On the schooner rigs, this is helped by trimming the aft sail  first during a tack shunt and the fore sail first for a gybe shunt.

There are a couple of shunts in the video mentioned above  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wftyqI2aJlo&t=3s   At 13.00 minutes it shows  an 8 second shunt in 20 knots and a couple of longer ones earlier on.  The longer ones are not pretty, (impaired, first time crew) but do show some of the advantages of shunting.  ie you can take as long as you like,  reverse it at at any time, does not require much crew coordination and does not run the risk of getting in irons (upwind) or surfing down waves with the boom slamming across and possible broaching (downwind in decent breeze).  Nor are there any potential "zone of death" issues during bear aways, although this is a function of the unstayed rig rather than the proa format.

Hope this helps. 

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9 hours ago, harryproa said:

Nothing from a drone, sorry.  Not that there would be much to see.

 

you post the video...

we'll be the judge of whether or not there is anything to see.

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8 minutes ago, us7070 said:

 

you post the video...

we'll be the judge of whether or not there is anything to see.

For the third time:

There are a couple of shunts in the video mentioned above  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wftyqI2aJlo&t=3s   At 13.00 minutes it shows  an 8 second shunt in 20 knots and a couple of longer ones earlier on.  The longer ones are not pretty, (impaired, first time crew) but do show some of the advantages of shunting.  ie you can take as long as you like,  reverse it at at any time, does not require much crew coordination and does not run the risk of getting in irons (upwind) or surfing down waves with the boom slamming across and possible broaching (downwind in decent breeze).  Nor are there any potential "zone of death" issues during bear aways, although this is a function of the unstayed rig rather than the proa format.

Let me know what you think.

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19 minutes ago, harryproa said:

For the third time:

up above, you asked us what we wanted...

i don't know what the others want.., but what i said i would like to see is a video from above, of one of the two-masted proas shunting... the view from above would give me a much better sense of what's going on than those other videos

and, given that kleen breeze  - the subject of this thread - has two masts.., it's not unreasonable to ask to see one of those in action

i appreciate you don't have one now.., but it should be possible to get one, given a few weeks....

i probably wouldn't have said anything.., except that you asked...

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And I’m still sitting around here in Portugal, patiently waiting, to just go have a look see at Kleen Breeze. The weather has been crap, so today’s scheduled viewing is on hold til Monday. 

And, if/when I do get this boat and sail her, I still don’t have a drone, so I won’t be of much help to the requests. 

Man o man. How does one stay patient in a foreign country, in the rain, with nothing to do without weed? 

 

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Portuguese weed - food! Mariscos: cod, clams, prawns. Sausages. Stews. Any kind of smoked pork. Really reasonable prices, killer portions, and good cheap local wines.

Find a family place where avó (grandma) is running the kitchen. Eat yourself into a coma.
Sorry you had to spend 4/20 away from home. ;-)

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Got some weed. Everything is back under control. 

The food is great! But, I am allergic to shellfish. 

Not nearly as cheap as Mexico though!

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Boat?

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I’m getting ready to start my flights back. So, more later, but, in a nutshell, I’m a bit overwhelmed with the decision I have to make. Here are some pics. There is a TON of work still to do. Unfortunately, we couldn’t sail her, so that variable is still unknown to me. I’m being offered a pretty good deal, where I’d only need to put down a small deposit before I could move aboard, start sailing her, and fixing her up, but couldn’t leave the country. Robin’s body has still never been found, so there is no death certificate yet, so the title to the boat is still in his name. His widow should get the title at some point, but not yet. It’s also quite obvious that this thing is a BIG, heavy boat, with HUGE wingsail masts (windage), and a single, centrally mounted outboard. Compare that with the incredibly nimble and agile Cat2Fold, that I can sail on and off the hook, sometimes on and off the dock, and just maneuver her like she’s an extension of my body, whether under sail or under power, and this thing will take some getting used to. But, this thing is a full on home. Cat2Fold is an amazing, luxury camping platform.  

Ive really got a lot to digest...

...all the photos and vids are too big to upload here. Go check them at the Facebook page for Cat2Fold.

otherwise, when I have more time, I’ll see what I can do. 

Gotta run now though!

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I got this one video walk through up on YouTube. Here you go...

 

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Thank you for the pictures, Brian. Not exactly ready to take on charters tomorrow but the fundamentals look really sturdy. I am particularly interested in the rudder design. The edge of the foils seems quite sharp for a Speer bidirectional profile. Maybe it is just an optical effect in the picture.

It would be quite something to have KB sail along with the almost as long French schooner proa, "Les Jours Meilleurs".  She sailed along the Portugese coast in 2014.

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1 minute ago, lucdekeyser said:

Thank you for the pictures, Brian. Not exactly ready to take on charters tomorrow but the fundamentals look really sturdy. I am particularly interested in the rudder design. The edge of the foils seems quite sharp for a Speer bidirectional profile. Maybe it is just an optical effect in the picture.

It would be quite something to have KB sail along with the almost as long French schooner proa, "Les Jours Meilleurs".  She sailed along the Portugese coast in 2014.

Robin showed me the rudders and they looked just like a Speer section to me. Not sharp edges. I remember wondering how the "feel" would be, since they have camber. I imagined that they would want to push/pull the tiller, depending on how they were balanced. But I didn't ask him about it. He also showed me the mechanism to automatically move the centre of lift to either side of the axis of rotation, depending on the direction of movement. It was all machined out of aluminium, with bushings and sliders made from nylon or similar low friction plastic. The rudders also had a way to kick up. I think it was all mainly Robins own design. Looked well built.

I think Robin had had a sail on that French Proa. He mentioned something about that when I asked if he had ever sailed a proa. But he started building his before that, I believe, so with no proa experience. I guess that is the case with most proa builders.

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Very first thing I noticed was the bulwark height front and rear,or is that front and front or rear and rear.At 300mm or so it is just an accident waiting to happen. Needs a handrail. Bullfrog has a similar problem when I purchased her.Had two handrails made for the cockpit as a small stumble rearwards would see one going over the back.Scary at two am 5klms off the coast and the only one on deck.What happened when the skipper disappeared on Kleen Breeze? Bottman

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I agree that handrails there are not a superfluous luxury..

I doubt the newspaper's report that KB was sailing when the skipper disappeared. I did notice a decent ladder. Would it have been retracted on anchor? 

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5 hours ago, lucdekeyser said:

I agree that handrails there are not a superfluous luxury..

I doubt the newspaper's report that KB was sailing when the skipper disappeared. I did notice a decent ladder. Would it have been retracted on anchor? 

The ladder looks to me like it should be reachable from the water with a little bit of effort. 

The only thing I can think, is that he could have possibly hit his head on the way down, or he was possibly drunk. 

Or, or...?

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It seems more fitting to this forum to discuss possible safety issues than speculating about this tragic event. From behind my desk the boat looks quite safe in many aspects with the exception of the remark from Bottman. The position at the tiller may need to be more protected but a simple extension would solve that.  The narrow windward ledge of the windward hull does not look inviting despite a couple of handrails, but then again its utility seems marginal anyway.

Regarding the windage and possible complications with wing masts, it seems the boat has withstood almost a full year of weather patterns, with the charts showing historical average gusts up to about 17 mph and at least one instance with gust speed at 36 mph. Not near the stress test one would wish for but better than nothing. Imagining the boat swinging in high winds some kind of pulpit at the anchor chain may offer welcome protection.

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I agree. I don’t want to think about any conspiracy theories as to what may have happened to Robin. 

11 hours ago, Bottman said:

Very first thing I noticed was the bulwark height front and rear,or is that front and front or rear and rear.At 300mm or so it is just an accident waiting to happen. Needs a handrail. Bullfrog has a similar problem when I purchased her.Had two handrails made for the cockpit as a small stumble rearwards would see one going over the back.Scary at two am 5klms off the coast and the only one on deck.What happened when the skipper disappeared on Kleen Breeze? Bottman

The back of Cat2Fold was similarly exposed when I first bought her. A solid handrail with a bench seat added a world of safety and comfort!

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Well, have you decided yet whether you’re going to move ahead, with the purchase? Expiring minds want to know!

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Yeah. As much as I’d love to take this on, honestly there’s too much in question to make me comfortable with the price. So, I threw out a lowball offer, explaining exactly why...

the boat is very unrefined. Some of the details looking pretty ghetto to me. Nearly every window and hatch was leaky, which for a nearly new launch, points to pretty rushed and shoddy construction, which of course leeds one to question what else was rushed. It’s obvious that the one, centrally mounted out board (non high thrust), is insufficient to handle this beast. Tight quarter maneuvering is IMPOSSIBLE! HUGE wingshape masts look cool, but are too heavy, and create a TON of windage. Also, the leeward hull is sitting super deep in the water, maybe entirely because of the overweight, homebuilt masts, but maybe also too much stuff loaded in there. Add to this list the fact that we couldn’t take her out sailing, and with only one day of sailing under her belt at all, it’s hard to know exactly how she sails and handles. And, then there’s the lack of a title. With Robins body never found, it’ll be at least a year, if not WAY more, before his widow is granted the title, which she then could transfer. 

With all of these unknowns, and the obvious amount of work remaining, I decided the price would need to be much lower than what we were initially discussing, before the inspection. I was told it was too low. I wish them all the best, and hopefully they’ll reconsider my humble offer, but until then, Kleen Breeze will sit at anchor, neglected, collecting more water inside the hulls, and slowly but surely deteriorating until someone with deeper pockets and sizable balls steps up and takes her on. I’m still hoping they’ll re think the value of my offer and get back to me, hence I’m not divulging what price we were initially discussing, and what I subsequently offered. I did lose a week of my life and about $1500 flying over there for a quick looksee, but I know I’d have regretted NOT going over to check her out, for the rest of my life. 

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On 4/21/2018 at 2:21 PM, rattus32 said:

Portuguese weed - food! Mariscos: cod, clams, prawns. Sausages. Stews. Any kind of smoked pork. Really reasonable prices, killer portions, and good cheap local wines.

Find a family place where avó (grandma) is running the kitchen. Eat yourself into a coma.
Sorry you had to spend 4/20 away from home. ;-)

Percebes!

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53 minutes ago, mookiesurfs said:

Percebes!

I’m allergic to shellfish. 

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If I was them I would have sold it for whatever you offered. They are going to regret that... at least from an economic perspective

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It seems as though they are entertaining my offer now.

But, it’s still a tricky bit, with no title available until the Portuguese govt. agrees to give ownership of the vessel to the widow. Plus, everything else involved. 

And, I sure wish I had a partner, with similar verve for life, to take this on!

Any of you anarchists know of any? Currently accepting applications....

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I have a rule of thumb on multihulls, if she is overweight from the start, you have to walk, overweight causes overloads = breakage/unsafe.

Cool houseboat for someone

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20 minutes ago, multihuler said:

I have a rule of thumb on multihulls, if she is overweight from the start, you have to walk, overweight causes overloads = breakage/unsafe.

Cool houseboat for someone

But she is totally loaded down with crap that can either be removed, and/or repositioned over into the windward hull. 

And, for the right price, the masts can be replaced if necessary, by much lighter tapered tubes. 

 

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1 hour ago, multihuler said:

She would be a hit at Burning Man!

That's funny.... but true.

I can only see houseboat here..... massive job to save it...

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12 hours ago, Solarbri said:

But she is totally loaded down with crap that can either be removed, and/or repositioned over into the windward hull. 

And, for the right price, the masts can be replaced if necessary, by much lighter tapered tubes. 

 

There’s another really kewl boat for sale that you may want to consider. It’s called CAT2FOLD.....oh, never mind.....

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I understand you are disappointed with the boat. Some things are not clear though. As far as I remember the boat weighted in at 11 tons when it was put in the water last summer. That is pretty light for its size. I do not understand that the electrical installation and a bunch of mattrasses as seen on the walkaround video would weigh down a 20 meter hull.. Also the built of this boat was certainly not rushed although apparently the installation of the windows failed. The only complaint the owner had was the weight of the booms as, contrary to his instructions while he was away on assignment, plywood was used instead .

Without being a lawyer I suspect that the legal aspect has more ramifications than discussed here. But that is a matter that fits legal forums better.

 

 

 

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I am not disappointed with the boat. Just overwhelmed. 

And, I don’t understand either why the leeward hull is sitting SO LOW in the water. 

Youre right, the bits that are in there, batteries, inverter, washing machine, small diesel generator, mattresses, etc. shouldn’t sink a 20 meter hull that much. And, I’m assuming it was launched, and weighed with all this stuff aboard, including the masts and booms, at the proclaimed 11 tons. So, WHY is she sitting so low on her lines, on the one hull only?

Even if the masts and booms are twice as heavy as needed, that also shouldn’t sink a 20 meter hull  

so, I’m concerned, and confused about that.

then,  there is the whole title issue  and, then there’s also the changes to my life that are an issue  

I’d like to think I could finish her, fix some leaky windows, address the propulsion etc. but, I’d also love to know that she’d actally be safe to sail across oceans.

itd be nice if someone chimed in with some actual knowledge about why I should or should not take this project on.

i don’t want a stationary houseboat  I want a cool liveaboard sailing boat. And if the price is right, what can I do to get this baby up to speed ...?

 

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If you want a blue water boat, you have to ask yourself "Why is the ocean not full of these designs?".

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1 hour ago, Solarbri said:

itd be nice if someone chimed in with some actual knowledge about why I should or should not take this project on.

I probably have as much actual knowledge as anyone else when it comes to guessing what the issues would be, but I don't think either one of us really wants for me to comment.

Where is the designer? It seems like he would tell you why the leeward hull is sitting low.

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1 hour ago, Russell Brown said:

I probably have as much actual knowledge as anyone else when it comes to guessing what the issues would be, but I don't think either one of us really wants for me to comment.

Where is the designer? It seems like he would tell you why the leeward hull is sitting low.

I’d actually LOVE to hear a reasoned opinion from you Russell. I know I’ve shit on some of your posts before, but mostly when you are just continually beating the dead horse. 

Please, share your knowledge, and/or your opinion on the subject. 

Id surely appreciate it. 

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This is not exactly a designer's boat, but rather a designer's inspired boat. Being an engineer, the owner build, assembled, rebuild and reassembled the parts over the years as progressing insights convinced him or not. Interesting to me is that the configuration happened to end up being close to present day versions of a HP cruiser. Its first test sail was quite promising. It is too bad that now it will take much longer than expected to validate its performance in a representative range of weather and sea conditions. 

Without being an expert I have the impression that the window and propulsion issues brought up here are easily solved. More worrisome are the legal/insurance/investment implications operating the boat while waiting for the conclusion of the sale, but still well within what a good local lawyer can fix.

 Only sea trials can determine if the boat would not be ocean safe and these could proceed already without significant investment but some time off.

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1 hour ago, mookiesurfs said:

If you want a blue water boat, you have to ask yourself "Why is the ocean not full of these designs?".

Was the ocean not littered with Proas way back in the day? 

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2 hours ago, mookiesurfs said:

If you want a blue water boat, you have to ask yourself "Why is the ocean not full of these designs?".

Imagine if the Polynesians hadn’t been limited to proas. They might have made open water passages rather than being restricted to the shallow sheltered waters of the Pacific.

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21 minutes ago, Solarbri said:

Was the ocean not littered with Proas way back in the day? 

And hearths were littered with stone axes back in the day. This design undoubtedly had it's advantages 1,000 years ago,  probably at least some of which were cultural, including being sailed by several seasoned experienced mariners whose crew weight equaled the boat - critical for trim and balance in this design, and tradition bound because it was all they knew, and driven by available resources. Vestiges of those advantages may still remain.  But, it is not reinventing a better wheel, imho. Times change, people learn, things improve.

I like the boat. It is a cool, unique, iconoclastic vessel. That is right up some people's alley, nothing wrong with that. It does not seem to be the forefront of blue water design, to me. I've paddled a Va'a around the South Pacific enough to have some grasp of the advantages and limitations.

You have to ask yourself when it comes to blue water boats "Why is the ocean not full of these designs nowadays?".

As to the the leeward hull riding low, there was a mention of $24,000 of lithium batteries somewhere.

 

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17 minutes ago, mookiesurfs said:

 

As to the the leeward hull riding low, there was a mention of $24,000 of lithium batteries somewhere.

 

Yeah but, that’s 600 lbs at most! The generator weighs 268. Clothes washer, let’s say 100. Mattresses....

so not much more than 1000 lbs of extra weight in that hull. That shouldn’t make THAT much difference on a hull of this size...?

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26 minutes ago, mookiesurfs said:

And hearths were littered with stone axes back in the day. This design undoubtedly had it's advantages 1,000 years ago,  probably at least some of which were cultural, including being sailed by several seasoned experienced mariners whose crew weight equaled the boat - critical for trim and balance in this design, and tradition bound because it was all they knew, and driven by available resources. Vestiges of those advantages may still remain.  But, it is not reinventing a better wheel, imho. Times change, people learn, things improve.

I like the boat. It is a cool, unique, iconoclastic vessel. That is right up some people's alley, nothing wrong with that. It does not seem to be the forefront of blue water design, to me. I've been wrong before, though.

You have to ask yourself when it comes to blue water boats "Why is the ocean not full of these designs nowadays?".

As to the the leeward hull riding low, there was a mention of $24,000 of lithium batteries somewhere.

 

I have no idea if Kleen Breeze would be a suitable blue water boat.

However I don’t find it a compelling argument that since “the ocean is not full of these designs nowadays” they must not be fit for purpose. That may be the case but it could equally easily be that traditions, conservativism, and installed base of traditional designs is an equally strong reason that proas aren’t more popular. Humans tend to find symmetry attractive and proas aren’t symmetrical in a traditional boat way (at least outside the pacific). That whole shunting thing seems weird to many (myself included).

Nathaniel Herreshoff’s catamaran Amaryllis clobbered all comers at the NYYC regatta in 1876. The reaction was not “oh lets adopt this clearly superior technology” instead it was to ban catamaran’s from competing.

Forty years ago catamarans were not common in the charter trade...that’s clearly changed. (Those condomarans are not to my taste but not that long ago you could have said gee if cats where any good for chartering how come there aren’t any).

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The red flag for me is the lack of title.  I did some quick research on it - could find nothing for Portugal - but the various laws seem to be pretty consistent.  Convince a judge to issue a death certificate, or wait seven years.  This is also not your process to lead or push through.  It would depend on the specifics to understand just how easy/hard and how long it would take (hopefully you had a good conversation with the widow on this).

For background....

UK legislation (said to be consistent with EU recommendations).    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/13/notes/division/2

The EU recommendations referred to above.   https://rm.coe.int/16807096bd

And just to show there is consistency, Scotland....    http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/taking-action/frequently-asked-questions/questions-about-presumption-of-death-in-scotland

 

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16 minutes ago, Zero Gravitas said:

The red flag for me is the lack of title.  I did some quick research on it - could find nothing for Portugal - but the various laws seem to be pretty consistent.  Convince a judge to issue a death certificate, or wait seven years.  This is also not your process to lead or push through.  It would depend on the specifics to understand just how easy/hard and how long it would take (hopefully you had a good conversation with the widow on this).

For background....

UK legislation (said to be consistent with EU recommendations).    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/13/notes/division/2

The EU recommendations referred to above.   https://rm.coe.int/16807096bd

And just to show there is consistency, Scotland....    http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/taking-action/frequently-asked-questions/questions-about-presumption-of-death-in-scotland

 

Thanks ZG. 

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The problem of the seven years wait can also be turned to an advantage. The next of kin have to take care of the boat during that period. One could make a deal with them to have the full use of the boat just for the cost of maintenance and upkeep without money layup. The boat is almost ready to go and needs little investment and just some repairs. The boat will maintain more of tis value during that period and one could argue to have the first right of refusal if one would want to keep the boat after seven years. If the restriction to stay in Portugal can be lifted one could have a ocean cruiser just for the cost of running it.

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I have a friend who found herself a sailing guy from England who has done well for himself financially and has owned a series of sailboats. They met on Bequia and hit it off and before you know it they had decided to buy a catamaran and sail around the world! Lots of adventures on the first half of the trip but threw in the towel when they got to New Zealand. They had wintered on the cat in Portugal before starting the RTW and went back and started looking for a house. They sort of stumbled across a nice place in a small town that they felt comfortable in and made an offer on it but there are all sorts of ownership and probate stuff going back centuries and Brexit came along and made some of the financial stuff even harder. So it came to pass that it would be perhaps years of court dealings before they could take possession of the property. They had made a deposit (earnest money) on the place but found that if the seller doesn't have clear title in a reasonable amount of time they have to give back the deposit which I guess went into escrow PLUS a penalty that is a large percentage of the deposit. So they ended up getting use of the place until the court things gets settled by getting rid of the usual penalty clause. Been a couple of years and things are still in limbo but they are enjoying the delay and will still get their original downpayment if all else fails. Sounds like something similar the Luc just mentioned could be arranged for the proa.

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4 hours ago, Solarbri said:

Yeah but, that’s 600 lbs at most! The generator weighs 268. Clothes washer, let’s say 100. Mattresses....

so not much more than 1000 lbs of extra weight in that hull. That shouldn’t make THAT much difference on a hull of this size...?

Is this the design? 

http://harryproa.com/?p=1747

SPECIFICATIONS

Loa/length leeward hull: 18m/60′
Length windward hull: 12m/40′
Beam: 9m/30′
Weight: 4,000 kgs/8,800 lbs
Payload: 3,000 kgs/6,600 lbs
Sail Area: 130 sq m/1,075 sq’
Draft rudders up: 400mm/18″
Draft rudders down: 2m/6’8″
Righting Moment: 32 tonne metres
Berths: Master Cabins 2 x queen size, ensuite toilets/showers
2 x singles in the leeward hull; also the option of converting saloon table to double berth.
Approximate Building Time: 2,000 hours.

At 2000 hours build time,  ( 4000 kg not 11000kg) it would only take a team of four  3 months to knock out another one apparently-_-

according to Denny.  BWAHAHAHAHA.

 

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No that is not the KB design. KB is much older and more voluminous but while in built at the owner's own pace and insight it converged its rig/rudder configuration more towards Denney's latest 60' design. In this sense it is the first of its kind but not the latest of the design. Its sailing performance would thus be illustrative for this configuration despite being of a different weight class.

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5 hours ago, KC375 said:

I have no idea if Kleen Breeze would be a suitable blue water boat.

However I don’t find it a compelling argument that since “the ocean is not full of these designs nowadays” they must not be fit for purpose. That may be the case but it could equally easily be that traditions, conservativism, and installed base of traditional designs is an equally strong reason that proas aren’t more popular. Humans tend to find symmetry attractive and proas aren’t symmetrical in a traditional boat way (at least outside the pacific). That whole shunting thing seems weird to many (myself included).

Nathaniel Herreshoff’s catamaran Amaryllis clobbered all comers at the NYYC regatta in 1876. The reaction was not “oh lets adopt this clearly superior technology” instead it was to ban catamaran’s from competing.

Forty years ago catamarans were not common in the charter trade...that’s clearly changed. (Those condomarans are not to my taste but not that long ago you could have said gee if cats where any good for chartering how come there aren’t any).

KC375, I agree with you completely. It may or may not be a great blue water boat. There are specific things that concern me, but most those have been pointed out. As to the basic design, all I'm saying is that for a design that has been around for so long, it has remarkably few adherents. That would give me serious pause, and require an exceptional amount of due diligence, for me.

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53 minutes ago, lucdekeyser said:

No that is not the KB design.

As Denny's highly experienced "Apologist in Chief" care to share some of your vast library of videos showing  YOURSELF  building , weighing ,shunting and racing Dennys' proa thingys'.

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27 minutes ago, mookiesurfs said:

...As to the basic design, all I'm saying is that for a design that has been around for so long, it has remarkably few adherents. That would give me serious pause, and require an exceptional amount of due diligence, for me.

I agree it would be unwise to assume any untested design is a good blue water boat. Best to proceed with caution. Kleen Breeze seems to have some drawbacks as is...like ease of tripping overboard.

As to the suitability of a proa for blue water. I’ve heard enough from enthusiasts to be open minded about a well-designed one handling blue water well. I’ve seen enough “tradition” or other reasons like who wants to be the first production builder of a boat that no one knows will sell, or for that matter who wants to buy a boat that no one knows what the resell will be ...etc. to view the absence as determinative.  The thread “Wide or Deep, Choosing the best cruiser for Scotland and Scandinavia”...pointed out all sorts of reasons why some well established boats I would choose for blue water would not be found in some waters.

I’m intrigued by proas. I hope to learn more first hand – starting small enough and cheap enough that at worst I’ll have limited regrets. Like any type of general design there may be some well done and some “not safe at any speed”. There are certainly many monohulls I’d not go offshore in. Even if you are comfortable with the general category an untested design should be approached with caution.

 

I hope Kleen Breeze works out for Solarbri ...for his sake and so we can learn through his experience. It sounds like he may be able to structure arrangements so even if the boat turns out poorly it might not be too painful. A year in Portugal with limited outlay might not be the worst experience.

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Please remember this is the dream boat of the owner and he had it actually built ready to sail. He was convinced of his choices. He knew about the discussions and accepted the risks. Its performance is of interest to many so that each of us can improve our own choices for our own dream boat. No more, no less.

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1 hour ago, overlay said:

As Denny's highly experienced "Apologist in Chief" care to share some of your vast library of videos showing  YOURSELF  building , weighing ,shunting and racing Dennys' proa thingys'.

Dude please. Simmer down. This is not a “persecution of Rob Denney” thread. Take it elsewhere. 

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7 hours ago, Solarbri said:

Was the ocean not littered with Proas way back in the day? 

This is not the issue here... I'm not a fan of proas but to each their own... My choices to buy or not to buy this boat, if i liked proas, would solely come down to money.

Solarbri clearly likes the Proa concept over Cats or Tris so in my opinion his decision should consider.... The structure quality to perform as Solarbri needs for future use and then the title issue ...Then if the boat is the right price, it should be considered. If I were the wife, anything over $50,000   (throw away figure I came up with based on the value of motor / winches / batteries etc. ) should be accepted. I say that because there are virtually a handful of people in the world that not only like this concept but could deal with it's size let alone those few being in the market to buy at the time. Even fewer that want a "project" boat....... Every month this thing sits unused depreciates it and severely diminishes the chances of another buyer coming along. In another year or two it is a haul out and full refurb / rebuild.

I see $50,000 - $100,000 more to spend at least after the buy just to be fully usable..

As i'm in the market to buy something myself, I have to remind myself that right now It's a buyers market ... cash is king...   AND.. try to leave the emotion out of the buy. 

My advice fwiw.... either get it dirt cheap or run......

 

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+100% as pil said. With those leaky windows and still quite a lot of finishing work to do it sure is going to depreciate very quickly. I feel very sorry for the wife, there’s so much money and years of hard work that has gone into into this boat, very sad to see their dream turn into a nightmare. 

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On 4/30/2018 at 6:59 AM, mookiesurfs said:

Percebes!

OK - you're either speaking Português (You get it!), or Galician (barnacles!).

Never having found a tasty barnacle, I'll go with the Português ;-)

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HI,

Sorry to hear about Robin. Respect someone who puts  so much effort into a project. Would be a shame not to see someone carry it on. However the sheer size is daunting. Don't attempt on a shoestring budget.

On the lack of videos: I sailed Elementarry (SideCar) for many years, but almost always solo, so no chance of showing it from a distance. 

Easiest boat ever sailed, especially raising/lowering sails and reefing. Shunting was very easy and fairly quick.

Doug

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Lots of Great information here. Thanks all. 

Id still love to hear from Russell Brown. Honestly, I would. 

But, realizing this was not something I’m quite ready to Jump at today, I’ve decided to focus on what I’m doing now, which is...

Sailing Cat2Fold every single day, as I live aboard in Mex. through mid July. I just bought tix to have my kids, 10 and almost 13, fly to Cabo San Lucas, in early June, and spend 3 to 5 weeks with me, sailing the eastern Baja! Whoop whoop!

After that happens, then...MAYBE then, I’ll move to Portugal. 

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Hi All I grew up in Port Moresby,New Guinea,overlooking the harbour.Abandoned my family at age 8 and moved in with Ken Andrews family in their boatyard.The lakatoys,small proas,were used for runabouts and most of the heavy lifting was done by twin hulled catamarans up to 60 ft or thereabouts. It wasnt unusual for Andrews to load a catamaran with thirty large bags of rice sugar etc for transport to villages up and down the coast.I sometimes wonder if those catamarans are still in use. Unpainted and without antifoul they would only last a few years but were a very "green " method of transport.Best of luck Solarbri. Bottman

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2 hours ago, Bottman said:

Hi All I grew up in Port Moresby,New Guinea,overlooking the harbour.Abandoned my family at age 8 and moved in with Ken Andrews family in their boatyard.The lakatoys,small proas,were used for runabouts and most of the heavy lifting was done by twin hulled catamarans up to 60 ft or thereabouts. It wasnt unusual for Andrews to load a catamaran with thirty large bags of rice sugar etc for transport to villages up and down the coast.I sometimes wonder if those catamarans are still in use. Unpainted and without antifoul they would only last a few years but were a very "green " method of transport.Best of luck Solarbri. Bottman

I always knew my life was quite conventional, but damn!

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10 hours ago, Solarbri said:

Lots of Great information here. Thanks all. 

Id still love to hear from Russell Brown. Honestly, I would. 

But, realizing this was not something I’m quite ready to Jump at today, I’ve decided to focus on what I’m doing now, which is...

Sailing Cat2Fold every single day, as I live aboard in Mex. through mid July. I just bought tix to have my kids, 10 and almost 13, fly to Cabo San Lucas, in early June, and spend 3 to 5 weeks with me, sailing the eastern Baja! Whoop whoop!

After that happens, then...MAYBE then, I’ll move to Portugal. 

I'm pretty sure that Kleen Breeze could have quite a bit of value in the charter world depending on where it was being used and whether or not certification was required. How the boat would do crossing oceans is anybody's guess. It's not going to be a boat that's likely to be driven fast in the big stuff, even after all the bugs have been worked out.

Besides my issues with the designer, the Harry proa concept has never made any sense to me, but I'm going to start a shit storm if I talk about that.

Someone needs to buy Kleen Breeze and put it to work. it's big enough to carry something, even if it's just sunburned tourists.

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3 hours ago, Bottman said:

Hi All I grew up in Port Moresby,New Guinea,overlooking the harbour.Abandoned my family at age 8 and moved in with Ken Andrews family in their boatyard.The lakatoys,small proas,were used for runabouts and most of the heavy lifting was done by twin hulled catamarans up to 60 ft or thereabouts. It wasnt unusual for Andrews to load a catamaran with thirty large bags of rice sugar etc for transport to villages up and down the coast.I sometimes wonder if those catamarans are still in use. Unpainted and without antifoul they would only last a few years but were a very "green " method of transport.Best of luck Solarbri. Bottman

Wow! I'd like to hear more of this story. At least you were abandoned in a really interesting place.

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Solarbri why on earth would you waste your time, resources and life on a incomplete problematic orphan .

You said you journey was followed closely by a train loaded with good luck do not squander that on this.

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Putting aside the design discussion for a minute, I find the human tragedy here is monumental.  People like Robin Warde who actually build their dreams are rare and precious.  It seems almost cruel and disrespectful to tear apart his opus before it ever was played as it was intended.  The risk and investment here was significant and real - Mr. Warde gave years of his life, engineering capabilities and family time to Kleen Breeze.

It would be a fitting tribute to find someone who could get the boat over the finish line and successfully through trials.  I can't imagine the sadness of his wife and family seeing his dream abandoned and almost worthless.  Much of the discussion here seems like vicious armchair judgement from non-participants who have strong opinions without respecting the vision and commitment necessary to get the project so close to fruition.  Although coldly rational, most of the vitriol expressed here sounds like prejudiced knackers assessing parts value to a dead thoroughbred foal racehorse that died before ever racing.

The romantic in me holds hope that Robin Warde's monumental effort does reach the success he envisioned.  I can envision Kleen Breeze quietly driving through offshore passages at far higher average speeds than other cruising designs of the same length and investment.  You can see the genetic potential in it's historical predecessors.  I know it is a Disney Movie of the Week childish notion though.

There IS a magical confluence of design, engineering and material science to proas.  They are phenomenal performers when kept within the boundaries of this magic - acknowledging that accommodation space,  creature comforts and social acceptance will never be part of that formula.  Sometimes weird can be better.

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13 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Besides my issues with the designer, the Harry proa concept has never made any sense to me, but I'm going to start a shit storm if I talk about that.

Well, Russell, I’m sure I’m not the only one who would love to hear why you think, “the HarryProa concept never made any sense to” you. And we all know about your “issues” with the designer. Leave that out. He’s staying out of this thread, to let others have a go at it. 

In theory, the HarryProa concept makes A LOT of sense to me. But I’m just a mechanically minded guy who has only owned one boat. Cat2Fold. She sports freestanding masts. I’m a HUGE fan of free standing masts. But, that’s me. I’ve got 23,000 miles of sailing on these masts. Not much to go wrong. 

I know you’ve got a lot of miles sailing many different craft, including Proas, but correct me if I’m wrong, never on a HarryProa? I do have a ton of respect for you and your contributions to the sailing community. Also cheering you on in the R2AK! (Although deep down inside I wish I could get a pedal propulsion system set up for C2F and go battle you in the single handed division).

So what exactly are your reservations with the HarryProa?  In particular, what do you think of this Kleen Breeze design? Which, keep in mind, was only inspired by Rob Denney. I know you are very busy right now also  

feel free to PM me if you prefer. Thanks!

 

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Here's my take: don't buy weird boats. Mostly because (a) their resale value sucks and (b) it is very hard to find a buyer when the time comes - unless you really, really love it. It's hard to sell an oddball boat and few us own a boat for decades before some life circumstances make you want to sell it. Bri, I suspect that selling Cat2Fold has been challenging. Had it been a conventional 37-38' cat it would have sold by now if the price is right.

For this particular boat, the lack of a clean title would make me just forget it. The sunken hull and overly heavy masts make it even less appealing. Do not underestimate how hard it is to build some decent freestanding carbon masts.

Of course having said that I was all set to buy a Gougeon G-32 catamaran which is very high on the odd boat chart, until my life circumstances changed!

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My 2 cents, when people say "proa" it usually means a zealot is nearby. Without going into reasons why I think the design concept is flawed, a clue is in the money the guy spent on building it. One would expect a cat that size to be getting up to a million or more to build properly. In other words its very likely a homebuilt pile of crap. The next thing is that its an oddball and should you buy it and sink money into it, say goodbye to getting a good part it back. Never could get my head around a proa, if you want a multi then get a cat.

It would make a reasona