Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Solarbri said:

Maybe, as was mentioned earlier, that if I word the $10k in a contract as a “down payment”, and if the title doesn’t come clean in a year or two, that could be considered an unreasonable amount of time, and the entire deposit could be returned?

As mentioned before, $10k is really peanuts in the scheme of the sum of costs associated with this project. I'd not put down the $10k without:

1. A purchase price, subject to conditions precedent/inspections, etc, agreed on in advance.  I suspect she thinks its worth more than it is.

2. Assuming you'll never get any of the $10k back.   If the widow needs your $10k to pay legal fees to get the title, that indicates she's likely to run out of money.  If she does have the funds, it really doesn't make sense for you to pay to get the title cleared.  

3. A fund of 2-3x a decent estimate of the total cost to get the boat on the water.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bistros, you are quite right but it must be said that Solarbri invited Russell to comment and ProaSailor obliged. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, socalrider said:

As mentioned before, $10k is really peanuts in the scheme of the sum of costs associated with this project. I'd not put down the $10k without:

1. A purchase price, subject to conditions precedent/inspections, etc, agreed on in advance.  I suspect she thinks its worth more than it is.

2. Assuming you'll never get any of the $10k back.   If the widow needs your $10k to pay legal fees to get the title, that indicates she's likely to run out of money.  If she does have the funds, it really doesn't make sense for you to pay to get the title cleared.  

3. A fund of 2-3x a decent estimate of the total cost to get the boat on the water.  

The situation is even more complicated than that:

1/ I expect a heavy taxation on the inheritance based on an official estimate and due sometimes before a fire sale brings in the necessary cash

2/ the inheritance is also shared with the children if any. Disagreements among the heirs can lock up a situation for a long time. Any deal before the title is assigned should then be signed by every one of the heirs and any one of them could contest the execution of the contract once the title is assigned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has the potential to rapidly descend into doom and unmitigated failure. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bistros said:

the differences between WTW designs and proven Pacific proa designs

That, in a nutshell, is my point.  There is nothing proven about this boat in Portugal.  It's not like restoring a "golden oldie" thoroughbred.  It might never be capable of crossing the Atlantic.  My comments twenty-one years ago came nine years after Wooden Boat magazine published issue #83, July/August 1988, with "PROVEN PROAS" on the cover.  Real boats I had sailed myself even before that issue came out, boats that had been offshore, up and down the U.S. east coast, more than three decades ago now!

wb_cover_kauri.jpg.33eaf649e157d25659fe579fac9d59ce.jpg

These statements are an expression of your enthusiasm, not proof the boat will ever meet its design goals if only more money and effort were spent:

Quote

...the genetic potential in it's historical predecessors...

There IS a magical confluence of design, engineering and material science to proas.  They are phenomenal performers when kept within the boundaries of this magic

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, bistros said:

Why don't we stop carrying on the same old holy wars about design variants that make 90% of Sailing Anarchy members shake their heads about proas and their enthusiasts?

I'd say closer to 99%

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

...  There is nothing proven about this boat in Portugal  ...

The boat sailed well balanced in more than 10 knots of wind. That is not spectacular except for those who predicted she would not be sailable at all. And as any one off built, she cannot prove to be capable to cross the oceans before she does. Predictions about her chances will vary according to engineering school. Robin was an engineer. He must have believed her chances were good enough to build her the way he did. And he is not alone. Let us hope somebody knowledgeable enough picks her up and shows us. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/1/2018 at 5:10 AM, Solarbri said:

Was the ocean not littered with Proas way back in the day? 

It's been a while since I read up on proas, and on Polynesian roaming of the Pacific, but it's my understanding that the bays and coastal waters were littered with proas, but the heavy-duty lifting of long passages was on double-hulled "canoes"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/4/2018 at 11:20 AM, Zonker said:

Here's my take: don't buy weird boats. Mostly because (a) their resale value sucks and (b) it is very hard to find a buyer when the time comes - unless you really, really love it. It's hard to sell an oddball boat and few us own a boat for decades before some life circumstances make you want to sell it. Bri, I suspect that selling Cat2Fold has been challenging. Had it been a conventional 37-38' cat it would have sold by now if the price is right.

For this particular boat, the lack of a clean title would make me just forget it. The sunken hull and overly heavy masts make it even less appealing. Do not underestimate how hard it is to build some decent freestanding carbon masts.

Of course having said that I was all set to buy a Gougeon G-32 catamaran which is very high on the odd boat chart, until my life circumstances changed!

As someone who spent about 10 days sailing Cat2Fold with SolarBri, I can attest that the greatness/coolness of the boat dramatically overcomes the "weirdness." Sailing it was a piece of cake. I think the strongest I saw was 20+ kts in 6-8 ft seas, but after that I wouldn't have worried in stronger conditions.

I'd say Kleen Breeze is a lot closer to the weird end of things than Cat2Fold.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/1/2018 at 9:17 AM, lucdekeyser said:

The problem of the seven years wait can also be turned to an advantage. The next of kin have to take care of the boat during that period. One could make a deal with them to have the full use of the boat just for the cost of maintenance and upkeep without money layup. The boat is almost ready to go and needs little investment and just some repairs. The boat will maintain more of tis value during that period and one could argue to have the first right of refusal if one would want to keep the boat after seven years. If the restriction to stay in Portugal can be lifted one could have a ocean cruiser just for the cost of running it.

This is the angle I would pursue, if you get more serious SolarBri. Especially if your "test" territory can be stretched to include the Med. By the time the 7 yrs was up, you'd be ready to move on to another boat like you have with C2F. So you could walk at that point and it would be a win for them as well because they would have a boat instead of a pile of mush on the hard. And it would be in a lot better shape because you wouldn't be able to stop yourself from fixing it up and tricking it out. Dragons, flames, pretty girls. The Med has much more variety of life than the west coast of Mexico. Too far from your kids, though, I suppose.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would say never build a weird boat - buying one second hand can be smart.... 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The G32, is not mainstream.  How do drown a hipster?     You put them in the mainstream.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That boat isn't racing in the R2AK. It hasn't ever really sailed, I think. From what I heard, the guy who was going to race the proa is now racing on a Reynolds 33.

Jzerro is now racing to Mexico from Florida: http://kws.kattack.com/WPlayer/WPosDisplay.aspx?FeedID=1718

Their competition is a very powered up F-31 and the wind has been very light, so not the best for Jzerro's tiny rig.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Russ, while you're here.... (and while my ignorance is on display for all)

Can you please tell me how you pronounced Jzerro?  Is the J silent?

She's doing great this morning!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Can you please tell me how you pronounced Jzerro?  Is the J silent?

 

 

Quote

Jzero

Jzero:
Well I ain't got nothing.
But it don't worry me
I came to this life like a free-walking tree
No need to be tied, no need to be--
They call me Jzero

Well I ain't got nothing
And to nothing I belong
You won't find me right,
Yet you won't find me wrong
If you think about me,
Don't thing too long--
Jus' call me Jzero.

Well I don't house no past
Never carried a key
My sun doesn't rise from under the sea
There is only one morning
Eternally...dee d'lee d'lee

Polygons:
Well he says he hasn't got nothing
But he seems to possess less
He waltzed through the door
Like a tapdance with death
What kind of fool is he?

Jzero:
No need to guess, jus' call me Jzero.

Well I don't eat a lot
I do work for nothing so
If there's a job I can fill the gap
I don't need a room, bed or pillow oh
Once you've decided to trust me with time
You won't need to look back...
A doo de doo de doo

Well I ain't got nothing,
But it don't worry me
I came to this life like a free-walking tree
No need to be tied, no need to be--
They call me Jzero.

Copyright 1975 Cat Stevens (now known as Yousuf Islam)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/10/2018 at 7:09 AM, Russell Brown said:

Jzerro is now racing to Mexico from Florida: http://kws.kattack.com/WPlayer/WPosDisplay.aspx?FeedID=1718

Their competition is a very powered up F-31 and the wind has been very light, so not the best for Jzerro's tiny rig.

Neck and neck (yellow marker is Jzerro), with a difficult upwind finish between a wind hole to port in the lee of Cuba and adverse current on the rhumb line:

wind_finish.thumb.jpg.e20e5a0b84540865dcef3d132cef8ff2.jpg

gulf_stream.thumb.jpg.745a2bc4803dc8f15ddcfe7c5e805675.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

what's the forecast for the breeze?  does the southerly develop or will the northerly fill in?  Pulling for Jzerro!

The tracker has a "Now" button at the bottom; each time you click the arrow button next to it, the Windy.com forecast advances by three hours.  Or you can look at Windy.com directly and use the 'Play/slider' at the bottom to advance the forecast: https://www.windy.com/?24.397,-85.067,7

It looks like the wind will pick up overnight, from the current ~10 knots or less to ~14 knots or more, then drop off considerably tomorrow.

Jzerro's tracker appears to be updating less frequently than the F-31 he is racing.  If you advance the replay speed on the Google Map Player (which is a little tricky), you can see Belefonte 2 advancing steadily while Jzerro stays still for long periods, then leaps to nearly the same location before sticking again.

Jzerro and Belefonte 2 are less than half a mile apart, 117 miles ahead of the boat in third place!

leaderboard.thumb.png.5630be048920778df5b90a5fd3e27dc1.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

The extra R was added to distinguish it from RB's first proa, Jzero of Polygor:

boarding_jzero.jpg

 

martinique.jpg

That's super cool. I visited JB and RB on the James in 1976? with George Olson, and Lynn. Had just been launched, Jzero was sitting on the river bank along with the brown 31. Tide out and aground. RB was 15 then, I believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't at all intend for my post about Ryan and Jzerro to be about my history. It makes me uncomfortable.

What Jzerro is doing now does make me quite happy. Ryan is one one of the best sailors I have ever seen, but he's got his work cut out on this race. There have been windy stretches, but lots of light airs and the boat they are against is a very powered up boat. Jzerro has a rig that is the same length as the boat.

The Facebook page is: 2oceans1rock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

I didn't at all intend for my post about Ryan and Jzerro to be about my history. It makes me uncomfortable.

Was responding to your post.

I was 18 years old at the time.

Didn't realize you've become a self promoting and pompous ass since then...

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, jhc said:

Was responding to your post.

I was 18 years old at the time.

Didn't realize you've become a self promoting and pompous ass since then...

Russell  didn’t start the thread drift, nor did he do any promoting. Others did.

You clearly do not understand the delicious irony relating to this particular thread drift..... Even if what you say about Russell self promoting was true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, jhc said:

Was responding to your post.

I was 18 years old at the time.

Didn't realize you've become a self promoting and pompous ass since then...

Sorry,  I wasn't responding to what you said, but instead the photos from the 1980's article about me that was part fiction and the rest bullshit.  I'm not a self promoting and pompous ass.

I wish I remembered meeting you and seeing George Olsen. I knew George from Santa Cruz before that time.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My mistake!

That image brought up an old memory. Was surprised at your reaction.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.... To continue the thread drift, does any one know the number of crew on each of the two currently leading boats in this race?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Sure looks to do good that proa - leading - and faster at the moment... 84 miles to go...  Seems there can be tacks before the finish - how does this proa tack? 

Edited by SeaGul
..dont now much about proas..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sidecar said:

.... To continue the thread drift, does any one know the number of crew on each of the two currently leading boats in this race?

Don't think anyone minds thread drift. Especially as still about  proas.

You (Jzerro camp) seem be more active than any of the Harryproas, so fair game that you should be allowed to hijack a Harryproa thread.

Good race result too. 

I don't mind seeing Jzerro be up in the lead. 

This presents a challenging target for someone with a Harryproa to come aim at.

Doug

 

Also, saw a report of a hurricane forming about there in the next week or so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look, maybe I should have started another thread about Ryan racing to Mexico.  In posting it here I was just hoping to share that something cool is happening right now. Instead there is a bunch of ancient shit about me which makes me uncomfortable, someone calling me names, and someone else wanting to get the proa wars going again. What the hell? Let's all just along.

The race that is happening right now is turning into a nail-biter. http://kws.kattack.com/WPlayer/WPosDisplay.aspx?FeedID=1718

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's hard to trust the tracker, but it looks like Jzerro is opening up their lead. Going upwind in breeze is what that boat loves.

I guess it won't be long now...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to Ryan's FB page:

Quote

About 10nm left to go! They should finish just under the 72hr mark! You can watch them finish live from the hotel's webcam. It's not great resolution, but even a crappy picture is worth a thousand words.

The race is 555 miles long.

jzerro_ryan.thumb.jpg.ee10f12c9218ed3b5b38fd04fb8bbc33.jpg

P.S.  Sail Ho!  8:45 am Pacific time.  Bravo Ryan!!!  Proven again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anybody see them? The web cam is great, but where are they?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ITs 03:00 hrs here in Tasmania.

Nothing on Ryan’sFB, nothing on video, and nothing on the tracker and leaderboard has changed for an hour, when Jzerro was “seconds” from the finish. Piss poor considering everything is supposed to be live.

So I shall assume that Jzerro took line honours and if the handicaps on the scratch entry list is correct, won on handicap as well.....

Bravo Ryan!!!!!

i am off to bed......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

Anybody see them? The web cam is great, but where are they?

Yes I did.  They passed by around 8:45 am our time, appearing in the middle of the screen as a tiny white blur, getting bigger and moving fast, right-to-left and off the screen.  Never really recognizable except for the obvious speed.  Too bad his tracker stopped reporting before he finished.  But fuck yeah, he kicked ass!!  Congratulations to @r.finn and of course, to you too Russell.  What a great boat.

jzerro_finish.thumb.jpg.4b3e775456a13856d6900013225a5f28.jpg

 

 

3 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

and someone else wanting to get the proa wars going again

As to this comment, if you are referring to me(?), no.  I never wanted a "proa war" and didn't start it.  Perhaps if there had been more race results over the last couple of decades, there never would have been a proa war. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

P.S.  I just realized that you can use the slider at the bottom of the live feed to scroll back and replay anywhere in the last four hours.  So I can see it again now; the time-stamp is visible in the upper right corner: 10:46 -- unfortunately, the live feed makes linking to that time impossible.

I managed to grab a screen capture while replaying the live stream - poor quality, jerky, probably worse than the original, but there he is:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Too bad his tracker stopped reporting before he finished.

Hope this is a temporary error - still a long way to go in the technology to cover ocean races like this.

leaderboard_2018May12b.thumb.png.2e6d9e1f79dd4572626dbc904a2baf98.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Leaderboard is corrected now: Proa in at 6.09 - tri at 7.48 - average speed 34kn and 30kn.....really fast there... Impressive that proa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Leaderboard is corrected now: Proa in at 6.09 - tri at 7.48 - average speed 34kn and 30kn.....really fast there... Impressive that proa.

The average speeds on the leaderboard are completely erroneous.... there is no way average speed can be over 3 times faster than top speed!! I haven’t worked out Jzerro’s elapsed time on the 555 mile race, but would expect that the average speed would have been somewhere around 8 knots.

FWIW, depending on how much the boats have been tweaked from standard/previous:

Approximate Base Speed (or predicted theoretical average speed over all conditions and points of sail) for Jzerro is around 11.3 knots and for the F31 is about 12.6 knots.

Converted to the TOD handicap system used on the race, Jzerro’s handicap should have been around 8, not 29, as compared to the F31’s -30. So a bonus there.....

But again, Well done Jzerro and Ryan Finn!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sidecar said:

The average speeds on the leaderboard are completely erroneous.... there is no way average speed can be over 3 times faster than top speed!! I MAKE JZERRO’S AVERAGE SPEED FOR THE RACE TO BE 7.72 KNOTS?

@SeaGulFIFY...... And Jzerro tacking/shunting:

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not surprised that they got ahead in the final stretch as it was upwind and there was enough wind to get moving. the surprising thing is that they could stay close in the light air with that tiny rig.  Their mainsail is the original, 24 years old and well over 30,000 miles on it. 

Hat's of to Ryan and his buddies! 

Screen Shot 2018-05-12 at 6.38.16 PM.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

I'm not surprised that they got ahead in the final stretch as it was upwind and there was enough wind to get moving. the surprising thing is that they could stay close in the light air with that tiny rig.  Their mainsail is the original, 24 years old and well over 30,000 miles on it....

The new foresails would have helped, especially the bow mounted Code 0/screecher, which is much bigger than anything you had at the time......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Look, maybe I should have started another thread about Ryan racing to Mexico.  In posting it here I was just hoping to share that something cool is happening right now. Instead there is a bunch of ancient shit about me which makes me uncomfortable, someone calling me names, and someone else wanting to get the proa wars going again. What the hell? Let's all just along.

The race that is happening right now is turning into a nail-biter. http://kws.kattack.com/WPlayer/WPosDisplay.aspx?FeedID=1718

Agreed, most Harryproa fans are probably also interested in Jzerro racing.....and winning. 

So I thought posting here is fair enough.

Can't help it though, just have to say, I think a Harryproa might have done as well or maybe even better.

And yes I agree with what you are about to say next: 

Why isn't there a Harryproa also racing or doing something more publicly visible? I don't know. Got me there.

Assuming they work well, easy to build etc, can someone explain the slow way it is catching on?

I sailed one myself: confusingly called SideCar which is now used by another proa person who posts here.

I would have been interested in making a better bigger one and doing more cruising and even joining a race fleet like Bto G.

But I haven't had the time and energy myself. So I find it a bit strange there hasn't been at least a couple of the more adventurous types wanting to make a bit of a name for themselves in the sailing world. Maybe it just needs one well made racer/cruiser and some good quality videos that become popular on youtube and things would take off. 

Just waiting for that first one.

 

Doug

Perth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice to see the tacking - but it isnt too easy with two rudders - turn the main and have two set of headsails. Then you bear off - stops - get going and then come up again - compared to a trimaran - when a ideal tack is doing nothing but turn the rudder. 

Said it before - to have a dedicated fore and aft gives a lot of advantages; when lenght is limited - you can get a much "bigger" boat by making the stern wide and planing.

I looked at a vid of Jens Quorings racing tri Dragonfire - they had 3 headsails on rollers to really get all the potential out.

What is the basic of a proa - one ama of c. but does ut need to be symmetric for/aft - to be a proa?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, SeaGul said:

Nice to see the tacking - but it isnt too easy with two rudders - turn the main and have two set of headsails. Then you bear off - stops - get going and then come up again - compared to a trimaran - when a ideal tack is doing nothing but turn the rudder. 

Said it before - to have a dedicated fore and aft gives a lot of advantages; when lenght is limited - you can get a much "bigger" boat by making the stern wide and planing. 

I looked at a vid of Jens Quorings racing tri Dragonfire - they had 3 headsails on rollers to really get all the potential out.

What is the basic of a proa - one ama of c. but does ut need to be symmetric for/aft - to be a proa?  

Yeah, the proa is good because you can make a very thin, very long lw hull. So you should go very fast.

That's all I know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, doughaines said:

[Re HarryProas]……sailed one myself: confusingly called SideCar which is now used by another proa person who posts here.......

Doug,

Aplogies for “stealing” your boat name, if I had known at the time, I would have found another name, but once a name is chosen and bestowed, I don’t like to change it... Call it superstition if you like.

Re Jzerro’s win, ALL Proa fans should be delighted.  We have totally and unnecessarily self inflicted a bad reputation for proas with all the bickering and feuds over the years when there is/was room for both types and the genre could have evolved far more than it has.

All  anyone has to do, as you say, as many of us have ever said and still say, is to build one and go out and cross a few oceans and do some races with them. Then you have something to talk about and learn from. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SeaGul said:

Nice to see the tacking - but it isnt too easy with two rudders - turn the main and have two set of headsails. Then you bear off - stops - get going and then come up again - compared to a trimaran - when a ideal tack is doing nothing but turn the rudder. 

Said it before - to have a dedicated fore and aft gives a lot of advantages; when lenght is limited - you can get a much "bigger" boat by making the stern wide and planing......What is the basic of a proa - one ama of c. but does ut need to be symmetric for/aft - to be a proa?  

If all you ever want to do in a boat is tack, then don’t get a Proa. Essentially to be a Proa, you have to shunt and that requires being symmetrical fore and aft.There are other rigs and ways of avoiding the duplication and complexity of tacking two jibs, but not for discussion here. PM me if you want to discuss further.

If you are constrained by length, then a trimaran, length for length is likely to be faster. Displacement for displacement, not so.

36ft Jzerro is probably less weight than the 31 ft F31, with a fraction of the sail area and can still beat it. My own 31 ft Proa has the weight of an F22, the sail area of an F85R, with standing headroom, and when finally sorted, should not be too far away from the F31 in terms of performance, at a small fraction of the F31 price. In a nutshell, that is why a few of us are interested in proas.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Doug,

Aplogies for “stealing” your boat name, if I had known at the time, I would have found another name, but once a name is chosen and bestowed, I don’t like to change it... Call it superstition if you like.

Re Jzerro’s win, ALL Proa fans should be delighted.  We have totally and unnecessarily self inflicted a bad reputation for proas with all the bickering and feuds over the years when there is/was room for both types and the genre could have evolved far more than it has.

All  anyone has to do, as you say, as many of us have ever said and still say, is to build one and go out and cross a few oceans and do some races with them. Then you have something to talk about and learn from. 

Well, it is a pretty good name for a proa. My boat was sold and moved to Thailand and given a Thai name.

Wonder how you came to build that style proa. What sort of studying of info did you do. Is that a Jzerro or a self-design.

WHat is the major issue at the moment, where is it in relation to being optimised?

 

Doug

Perth

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not sure Jzerro is very relevant to KB. This does not detract from the pride for Jzerro's win, though. But much of unproductive discussion is due to a lack of focus on the requirements of use. KB is meant as a family ocean cruiser. Robin chose to build her not as an investment but as a testament of what he considered the best combination of technical choices. So these choices should be considered against the intended use. What stands out with KB are the unstayed wingmasts in combination with the bidirectional rudder/boards pair.

My personal priority in viewing a family ocean cruiser is safety. This issue touches on a broad variety of aspects of designing, building and operating a boat. It is sadly ironic that at least one easy to solve aspect of safety was not (yet?) taken care of in KB. 

One interesting safety aspect of a proa in general for amateur cruising is its ability to stop and reverse. I feel a case can be made that this is more important than fast tacking, although not in all situations of course.

If one would want to discuss the safety aspect of proa configurations per se then comparing KB to Gaiasdream (GD) would be more to the point as their intended use is comparable. GD's rig was rebuilt last summer so also for this boat we are awaiting reports on her performances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, doughaines said:

... Wonder how you came to build that style proa. What sort of studying of info did you do. Is that a Jzerro or a self-design.

WHat is the major issue at the moment, where is it in relation to being optimised?

...

This new incarnation of Sidecar is interesting enough to warrant its own thread ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, lucdekeyser said:

This new incarnation of Sidecar is interesting enough to warrant its own thread ;-)

I think all these topics are interrelated. Doesn't seem any reason to separate them.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the support guys.  Sorry about the tracker.  I set the SPOT up to only update every hour because it is annoying to look at the track on their website and see a ping every ten minutes.  Having replayed the race on the Kattack website however, I now see how the ten minute thing would have been better.  Huge props to Russell Brown for creating Jzerro.  She's a real sailing machine and happy to be pushed hard while remaining safe.  Never had a single moment of anxiety.  Good times indeed.

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any video from the race, Ryan?  Saw this news at one of the sponsoring clubs (Southern Yacht Club):

Quote
Post Date: Sunday, May 13, 2018
Mexico Racer Distmasted by Waterspout
GULF OF MEXICO (May 12, 2018) - Yesterday, Maria Perez and Lisa Johnson's Beneteau Oceanis 41.1, CLOUD 9.1, was dismasted by a waterspout in a squall, 125 miles from the finish line in Isla Mujeres, Mexico. All on board are fine, but the rig was cut away and dropped overboard. Besides Johnson, the crew of eight includes Benz Faget, Rod Steiffel and John F. Dane.

http://www.southernyachtclub.org/default.aspx?p=.NET_ArticleView&tview=0&plugid=1022536&ssid=315225&qfilter=RSC21923&itemID=308142

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, r.finn said:

Thanks for the support guys.  Sorry about the tracker.  I set the SPOT up to only update every hour because it is annoying to look at the track on their website and see a ping every ten minutes.  Having replayed the race on the Kattack website however, I now see how the ten minute thing would have been better.  Huge props to Russell Brown for creating Jzerro.  She's a real sailing machine and happy to be pushed hard while remaining safe.  Never had a single moment of anxiety.  Good times indeed.

So, what was the crew compliment, 3?

How was the competition, how many multihulls?

If it was downwind instead of mostly upwind would the catamaran that came second have gotten an advantage from a big spinnaker?

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DH, yes there were three of us on board.  There were only three multihulls, but Belafonte is a pretty well proven boat and team, so we feel like we had a legitimate race between us.  I've seen them at the end of a Cuba race and I've seen them at the end of a Mac race, so they are using that boat in a really cool way.  Great group of guys, and we had lots of fun catching up with them last night.  Downwind they would have been really fast as they have some really big off the wind sails and a mainsail that is bigger than the entire boat.  Without sailing against them in those conditions however, we just don't know how much faster they would have gone.  Anyway, Kleen Breeze.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/12/2018 at 10:40 PM, doughaines said:

Can't help it though, just have to say, I think a Harryproa might have done as well or maybe even better.

A true proa wars die hard!

On 5/13/2018 at 12:27 AM, doughaines said:

Yeah, the proa is good because you can make a very thin, very long lw hull. So you should go very fast.

That's all I know.

There is a lot more to know than that.  Even some "experts" remain clueless.

10 hours ago, doughaines said:

So, what was the crew compliment, 3?

How was the competition, how many multihulls?

If it was downwind instead of mostly upwind would the catamaran that came second have gotten an advantage from a big spinnaker?

Yes, there were three guys on Jzerro for this race.

The entry list is here: http://www.regataalsol.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/RaS-2018-Entries.pdf
Three multihulls: Corsair 31 (Belafonte), Custom Proa 36 (Jzerro), PDQ 42 (Miss Jody)

As to downwind...  We've had too much speculating over the last 21 years, don't you think?  That's what a race is for.  The Corsair F-31 is a trimaran, not a cat.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/13/2018 at 7:55 PM, lucdekeyser said:

This new incarnation of Sidecar is interesting enough to warrant its own thread ;-)

I may very well do, once it has crossed a few oceans and done some races. Then we will have something to talk about and (hopefully) learn from.......

@doughaines I have PM’ed you....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

A true proa wars die hard!

There is a lot more to know than that.  Even some "experts" remain clueless.

Yes, there were three guys on Jzerro for this race.

The entry list is here: http://www.regataalsol.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/RaS-2018-Entries.pdf
Three multihulls: Corsair 31 (Belafonte), Custom Proa 36 (Jzerro), PDQ 42 (Miss Jody)

As to downwind...  We've had too much speculating over the last 21 years, don't you think?  That's what a race is for.  The Corsair F-31 is a trimaran, not a cat.

 

OK, so I think that is a good race result to beat the 31 TRIMARAN. Good scalp to have (on the belt, bag).

But it could have been a different story downwind.

Note I am not suggesting a Harry would not have that similar disadvantage to the Tri. Just being objective in my speculation.

On the length point: one of the big advantages of proas is that they can have a very long thin lw hull. So go faster. I know at least that much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/14/2018 at 1:50 PM, Sidecar said:

I may very well do, once it has crossed a few oceans and done some races. Then we will have something to talk about and (hopefully) learn from.......

@doughaines I have PM’ed you....

Sidecar, can you post some links to your boat, please?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, charliemagee said:

Sidecar, can you post some links to your boat, please?

PM’ed you.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, doughaines said:

Thanks for link.

Is that pacific or atlantic?

Explain the rig(s)?

ProaSailor clearly said Pacific if you bothered to read the second short sentence.... It is also pretty obvious from the link he provided what type it is.

And whilst I would be interested in his explanation of my rig, this thread is not the place.

I have PM’ed you again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except to say that the other forums that involve proas seem pretty dead nowadays. Especially the yahoo group.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So did he buy Kleen Breeze...?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, PIL007 said:

So did he buy Kleen Breeze...?

 

If you’re referring to me, as much as I’d like to...nope. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Solarbri said:

If you’re referring to me, as much as I’d like to...nope. 

Are you still looking at it or is it all to hard..?

Your cat looks like a great thing...

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, PIL007 said:

Are you still looking at it or is it all to hard..?

Your cat looks like a great thing...

 

She’s still on my mind, but yeah, everything from the title, to getting a visa, to the huge amount of work needed, and my tiny pile of money. Plus, I absolutely LOVE my boat. So, yeah, I’m sticking with what I got...for now. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Solarbri said:

She’s still on my mind, but yeah, everything from the title, to getting a visa, to the huge amount of work needed, and my tiny pile of money. Plus, I absolutely LOVE my boat. So, yeah, I’m sticking with what I got...for now. 

Smart and wise choice.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great eyes, Luc.  I agree that it is Kleen Breeze on the mooring.  I took a screen shot & expanded it to confirm. 

Sad thing is that it looks like the two new sails are just dropped in the lazyjacks and the rudders are down - as if the boat was placed on the mooring with no preparation for long term storage.  Some boatyard stooge has tied it up and it is probably sitting abandoned waiting for the estate to be settled and the title cleared.  Could be months to years before it can be cleanly sold.

Once a boat is left on a long term orphan mooring, it doesn't take long for the wildlife and vandals to start the process of turning it into a wreck.  Homeless boats compost faster on a mooring ball than last night's dinner does in the garden compost heap.  C'est vraiment triste.

Got to say I really like the two people on the Heavenly Twin cat (Kittiwake).  They are certainly sticking to their mission of cruising to the Med on the cheap while young enough to enjoy it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, bistros said:

Great eyes, Luc.  I agree that it is Kleen Breeze on the mooring.  I took a screen shot & expanded it to confirm. 

Sad thing is that it looks like the two new sails are just dropped in the lazyjacks and the rudders are down - as if the boat was placed on the mooring with no preparation for long term storage.  Some boatyard stooge has tied it up and it is probably sitting abandoned waiting for the estate to be settled and the title cleared.  Could be months to years before it can be cleanly sold.

Once a boat is left on a long term orphan mooring, it doesn't take long for the wildlife and vandals to start the process of turning it into a wreck.  Homeless boats compost faster on a mooring ball than last night's dinner does in the garden compost heap.  C'est vraiment triste.

Got to say I really like the two people on the Heavenly Twin cat (Kittiwake).  They are certainly sticking to their mission of cruising to the Med on the cheap while young enough to enjoy it.

Yup. Makes me real sad to think that KB may end up exactly as your describing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now