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bmiller

Heating the new workshop, options?

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The new workshop is well underway, link to photo log:
https://bmiller1959.smugmug.com/Shop-build/
I'll be ready for interior work in a couple months, just in time for cooler weather.

How to heat it? I will have electricity and natural gas in the shop. I'm leaning toward a basic forced air unit heater like this.
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Modine-HD75AS0111-HD75-Hot-Dawg-Natural-Gas-Power-Vented-Heater-75000-BTU

The low intensity tube heaters seem pretty popular now in commercial buildings but to get the same BTU the up front cost is quite a bit more. Are they worth it in the long run? Are they more efficient?

Pretty sure a high intensity infrared radiant is out of the question, just don't care for them.

Probably install a wood burning stove down the road but do not want that as the only heat source.


Thoughts?

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It doesn't look like you've got any insulation under that slab. What are the shop dimensions? What's the R spec for the walls & ceiling? How many windows & what size/type? Once you figure out the total BTU needed from all that, I'd suggest going with natural gas and more than one heat source to avoid big temp gradients and a drafty feeling. 

EDIT: The interwebs say the electricity in BV, CO is around $0.15/kWh so gas will heat for about half the cost of electricity.

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Correct, no insulation under the slab. I figure for 8 months out of the year it will be fine and I'm not out there every day.

Dimensions are 34X38 with 10' side walls. Construction is 8" block with loose fill insulation. R-value is not good, about 5 or 6 but I really like block walls for this application. Again 8 months out of the year it's great, cool in the summer is well ventilated. Roof is basic truss with R-19. I could go more but the middle 8 feet from front to back will have a "floor" in the attic space so limited to 19.

Whatever system I use will be natural gas fired.

 

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I think Hatin Life is heating a gazillion square foot workshop at the north pole and I recall some discussion about this back then. Might shoot him a note about what he learned/picked.......

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Too bad you didn't ask this question before the slab was poured.

 Radiant floor heat with a simple propane/NG heat pump, with solar heat tank on the roof would have been the bees knees.

 As is..... Ehn.... Get a few salamanders and blast away.

 Heating the surface is always better than heating the air.

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The online calculators guesstimate 90-130K BTU for year-round use, depending on insulation. The high end is for no insulation, the low for R-11 in walls and ceiling which seems like a closer fit to your situation overall. Given the size of the space, I'd opt for two smaller units diagonally opposed so you don't get any cold spots. Modine has a 45K BTU model and if you went with two of those you could potentially use it year-round if you chose to. 

I'd also seriously think about furring out the inside of those block walls and adding some insulation under sheetrock or just lining the thing with 2" foam panels. It'll make a big difference. 

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I'm guessing 30x30?

Too late now, but you should have foam and a vapor barrier under the slab.  Foam, if taped, counts as a vapor barrier, but taping the seams gets old rather quickly.  I did 2" foam on top of the plastic sheet vapor barrier.  2" foam on the outside to keep the frost out, and a 1" strip of foam on the interior of the last course of block to act as a thermal break so I'm not conducting out the walls.  Heat mostly goes up either in air or conduction, but every bit helps.

 

Personally, and I don't say this to be a dick, but I would've put the tubing in the floor, even if you didn't plan on heating it up right away and went with a hanging unit.  (lol hanging unit....)  Then you can add a boiler later.

I went with in floor heat because my building is a cabinet shop.  Anything that has to handle air is a maintenance nightmare.  Plus, once you heat up 600,000 pounds of concrete, then however many pounds of steel and cast iron I've got in there, the temp doesn't sway much.  The wood likes that.

If you have natural gas available, that's your fuel.  NG is the cheapest per btu right now by far.  My shop I didn't have it as an option and I went with off peak electric, but I have the option of adding a propane boiler later if necessary, (more like when I have money again).  Propane swings pretty wildly, if propane is below a certain cost, I'll burn that.  It's nice having some redundancy too for me since I'm trying to carve a living out with mine.

Check with somebody on the best way to insulate the block, there might be a foam that can be poured in?  Versus doing vermiculite or something similar?  I have zero experience with that.  You said you like the block, but I hate inefficiencies and would build an energy wall an inch away from the block and spray foam it in tight to the block so there's no air gap or space for the dew point to be reached and create rot or sweating with temp swings.

A 75k btu heater like that should work fine for heating, might be a bit oversized.  If you're not going to be in there all the time, I'd keep it at 45F in the winter, just so you don't have to swing the temperature so much.  I kept my old shop at 63F in the winter, but it was small and if we were really cranking the machines would push the temp above 70F on the regular.  That's why off peak works well for me, I can heat the slab at night when the temp drops, and the machines maintain during the day.  I don't know how much that is going to happen in my new shop since volume of air is 126,400 cu/ft versus 30,000 cu/ft in the old shop.  Colorado generally doesn't see the brutal, soul killing, wallet emptying cold that we get here in Minnesota.  We haven't had a real harsh winter for five or six years, and we're due.  When the delta in temperature is pushing 100F we have to do everything we can to keep the temp up.  Especially when the stupid shit really hits the fan and the lows are -40F, and the high never gets above 0F for four or five weeks.  Doesn't happen that often though.  Add in a zillion mile an hour wind since living on the prairie that is pretty standard and you can watch your bank account drop faster than the temp.

I hate the radiant tube heaters.  More than I hate life.  You're freezing your bits off if not directly under it, and you're battling to stay hydrated underneath them since it's so hot.

If you want AC, might want to look into a mini split.  They can heat down to about zero as well, plus you could do the forced air unit too if you really want to jack the temp up quickly for whatever reason.  Plus, you'll have redundancy if you're storing anything that can not be frozen.

A ceiling fan or two would be a good addition.  At least pull the circuit and mount the boxes so if you want to add them later, they're there.  All you'll need is a switch and a fan.

 

 

I'm at least 20 miles from the arctic circle, you guys are such drama queens sometimes :D

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Before I got the floor poured in my shop, I had a 75k heater just like that sitting on a shelf on one end.  It kept a 60x132 building with a 16' sidewall above freezing with fans running.  It never shut off, but I kept the frost from really digging in.  With no floor, all I had was frost blankets shored up around the bottom of the overhead doors to keep the cold out(ish).  I can't remember the numbers but my walls are 2x8, and I want to say an R19 in the walls.  The ceiling we blew 16" of cellulose in, and I think the required minimum is R39, 14" would've gotten us there.  Insulation pays off in the long run.  I wanted to spray foam the whole thing, but I didn't have the extra $40k it was going to cost to make that happen.

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All electric heaters, regardless of cheapness or expense, are 100% efficient. (The radiant tube heaters are popular though because they heat the objects/people before they heat the air.) So for tube heaters, assuming the balance of system is decent, you can just buy the cheap ones. It's why so many people use the tubes now instead of electric forced air. They're also pretty quiet, unlike electric or gas forced air. (Though I once had a natural gas radiant heater, that thing was amazing, better than electric, not sure if I would trust it around sawdust though.)

Natural gas is cheaper per BTU then electricity, but then you have to be sure to pay enough for an efficient unit, maintain good ventilation, manage your airborne sawdust well, and manage your humidity, because natural gas screws with humidity. And since the gas heats the air, you don't get the instant warmth like with radiant.

Electric is easier, just mount the tubes, instant warmth with the infrared, you pay more for the juice but you don't need to heat the whole shop, you can just heat where you're working or your glue setup area overnight. No worries about CO or CO2 in the enclosed space. If you mount a kilowatt or so of grid tie solar panels on the workshop roof you can even get free heat after about a five year payback. (Lower than the house because you presumably don't need to heat the workshop 24/7.)

My sister's loft in Brooklyn blew up from a Keyspan natural gas explosion, but that's rare.

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4 hours ago, mikewof said:

All electric heaters, regardless of cheapness or expense, are 100% efficient. (The radiant tube heaters are popular though because they heat the objects/people before they heat the air.) So for tube heaters, assuming the balance of system is decent, you can just buy the cheap ones. It's why so many people use the tubes now instead of electric forced air. They're also pretty quiet, unlike electric or gas forced air. (Though I once had a natural gas radiant heater, that thing was amazing, better than electric, not sure if I would trust it around sawdust though.)

Natural gas is cheaper per BTU then electricity, but then you have to be sure to pay enough for an efficient unit, maintain good ventilation, manage your airborne sawdust well, and manage your humidity, because natural gas screws with humidity. And since the gas heats the air, you don't get the instant warmth like with radiant.

Electric is easier, just mount the tubes, instant warmth with the infrared, you pay more for the juice but you don't need to heat the whole shop, you can just heat where you're working or your glue setup area overnight. No worries about CO or CO2 in the enclosed space. If you mount a kilowatt or so of grid tie solar panels on the workshop roof you can even get free heat after about a five year payback. (Lower than the house because you presumably don't need to heat the workshop 24/7.)

My sister's loft in Brooklyn blew up from a Keyspan natural gas explosion, but that's rare.

Wrong type of tube, I'm talking about the low intensity gas burners. No way in hell I'm going to heat 1200 square feet with electricity. 

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48 minutes ago, bmiller said:

Wrong type of tube, I'm talking about the low intensity gas burners. No way in hell I'm going to heat 1200 square feet with electricity. 

those things are pretty awesome. Was in a big ass county shop many moons ago, and they had the infrared tube heaters. quiet, no air blowing all over, and given it's heating the mass and not the air, when you opened the shop door and closed, it came back up to temp quickly. flip side, if things get cold, it takes a long time to heat back up....

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There must be a reason all the stations at my old fire department have these installed. Even the old stations got refit. And the construction is basically the same as what I'm doing.

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B, you want an Infrared heater. Electric or gas. Forced air or unit heaters will not do well in a dusty environment. Infrared will heat the objects, not the air. I'm guessing you will have drafts or air removal system and hence, do not heat the air, heat the material. 

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1 hour ago, bmiller said:

There must be a reason all the stations at my old fire department have these installed. Even the old stations got refit. And the construction is basically the same as what I'm doing.

OK.... So why did you ask?

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4 hours ago, bmiller said:

Wrong type of tube, I'm talking about the low intensity gas burners. No way in hell I'm going to heat 1200 square feet with electricity. 

We had those at our old high bay in Bama, they worked well, same as the electric radiants, much lower operating cost. Circulation wasn't much of a problem there, 50-something foot ceiling, no wood, only steel. Heating it electrically would have been nuts, but radiant was needed to limit air movement for the lab installs.

I wouldn't feel as comfortable with a 15 foot ceiling and wood dust, but I assume it's safe, we don't cover this at my job, just the therm costs. It's probably worth checking your numbers though, if you have residential ceilings in your shop, then it's only about 15k-some cubic feet. I don't know the incentives that your local utility offers, but we have test sites on Xcel's net-metering, electric heating with rooftop solar is cheaper than natural gas on a 15-year payback for a some sites. Those are all radiant heating with an electric boiler though, I don't know of radiant tube numbers, and if your shop isn't insulated well then electric would probably be a waste.

That's also assuming you have a gas line. Once you go to propane, electric usually gets a bigger edge.

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Just a thought

You already said you won't be heating every day.

My shop only needs heat a few days a year. Some years I have to add heat on as many as sixty days. Most years the number is more like 20.

i have priced all kinds of heating systems .

i have:

a 35,000 kerosene heater

three 17,000 BTUColeman brand propane heaters

one 45,000 BTU Coleman 

And about a dozed 125 watt infrared flood lights in clamp on utility lights.... the ones with the squeeze clamps and a big silver colored bowl as a reflector. 

It has been over twenty years since I built my new shop and I still have better things to do with my money than install a central heating unit. 

Note: the office portion has a heat pump and AC and the entire building is well insulated so the shop never drops below 50. 

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Thanks for the insight Gouv, but I live in central Colorado at 8,000 feet. Our heating demands are a bit different.

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5 hours ago, bmiller said:

Thanks for the insight Gouv, but I live in central Colorado at 8,000 feet. Our heating demands are a bit different.

For now, yeah, the Texas heat pumps won't work for you, but you should see the stuff in the pipeline ... cold climate heat pumps that work below 0 degrees F. Probably in another twenty years or so, between ground source heat pumps and cold climate air source heat pumps, home heating will be nearly all electric.

If you don't want to wait, this little beauty is incredible, it's a ground source heat pump, but it uses refrigerant in a few copper lines rather than water in PVC lines. So you can drill your entire well field under the size of a large manhole cover, and no need for full drill rigs, you can do it all with a Bobcat rig, since the bores only need to be about an inch or two, rather than six-inches or more. Best of all, no heat exchange from the water to the refrigerant loops, it just goes straight into the ground and either dumps heat or absorbs heat and then comes back out through the HVAC and back.

https://earthlinked.com/how-it-works-the-installation-process/

What we see all the time in these mountain properties with ground source heat pumps, is that most installations have way, way more heat than they can rationally use with their in-floor radiant heating systems, they end up doing things like running radiant loops under their driveways, heating storage sheds and workshops, heating their tomato gardens, behind all the bathroom mirrors and heating garages, and then using mini-splits wherever the floor radiant heating won't work.

But the best use for ground source heat pump is all over the midwest where you get frigid winters and hot summers. All summer the heat pump dumps heat into the ground, gradually raising the temperature of the well-field, then in winter, that stored heat is pumped back out.

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I did a little checking and found out the foam is only a little more expensive than loose fill insulation. The foam R-value is 11 versus 5 for loose fill. I can live with that.

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3 hours ago, bmiller said:

I did a little checking and found out the foam is only a little more expensive than loose fill insulation. The foam R-value is 11 versus 5 for loose fill. I can live with that.

Be sure that you're comparing apples to apples.

The R-value for the good closed cell spray foam is about R-6.5 per inch, and cellulose fill is R-3.5 per inch. If your wall cavity is 5.5 inches (assuming your building code calls for 2x6 exterior walls) then you will get an R-20 in your wall for about $1/foot. But the price of the spray foam that they quoted is almost definitely for 1-inch of spray foam, assuming the price was about the same as 5-inches of loose fill. The R-value they gave you is apparently for two-inches of closed cell spray foam ... unless maybe you found a friend to do the work for free and they're just charging you for the material.

If you want R-20 with the spray foam then you'll need about three inches of it, and your cost will be two to three times higher than the quote they gave you. Spray foam is more expensive than loose fill and it's much better at insulating per applied inch. If cost isn't a major object, go for the spray foam to fill the wall cavity, you'll have a high-performance building.

But if cost is a concern, then a more common way is to spray foam the openings to prevent air infiltration where the cellulose would settle with time or not reach, and then fill the rest of the cavity with the cellulose loose fill. You'll still have a high-performance building (assuming your attic insulating and windows are decent) at a lower cost.

 

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Yes I am comparing apples to apples. 

The walls are 8" block, the cavity is a6out 6". Loose fill, also called persolite, gets you an R-value of about 4.5.

The foam that is injected after the walls are up is a low expansion product and gets an R-value 0f 11.

Cost for foam is 1,500, cost for loose fill is right around 1,200

 

Edit to add:

Some of you may find this as sexy as I do. Brand new Smith 5 lam 4 footer. My old 4 footer was on it's last leg.

IMG_4232

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1 hour ago, bmiller said:

Yes I am comparing apples to apples. 

The walls are 8" block, the cavity is a6out 6". Loose fill, also called persolite, gets you an R-value of about 4.5.

The foam that is injected after the walls are up is a low expansion product and gets an R-value 0f 11.

Cost for foam is 1,500, cost for loose fill is right around 1,200.

 

I've never heard of persolite insulation, is it a form of cellulose? A brand of perlite?

I didn't realize that you are doing block walls, but I don't know how these numbers they gave you add up. The fill insulation would be about R3.5/inch x 6 inches, or about R20 equivalent. If they quoted you for open cell spray foam (it's cheaper than closed cell spray foam) and they fill the cavity, you would have about R20 equivalent too. If they gave you a killer deal for closed cell spray foam and also filled the cavity (which it seems they would have to do if they are filling it from the top) then you would have closer to R40 equivalent. But I've never heard closed cell that cheap.

If you buy open cell foam, be sure to put in a vapor barrier on both sides of your wall cavity, that open cell drinks water like a camel in Lent.

If you're actually getting R4.5 for a six inch cavity, it would then be some material of about R0.8/inch, which is pretty conductive, maybe wood chips? If you filled that 6 inch cavity with just plain old cheap shit cellulose you would get R20, even perlite would give you a solid R15. And the "R11" that they gave you couldn't be for one inch, because no foam is that high performance, R11/inch would outperform some of the best insulation that the DOE is investing tens of millions into. Could that salesman be screwing with you to make a sale? 

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Persolite was a trade name for perlite, some kind of mineral based product. Here's a link.

https://www.perlite.org/industry/insulation-perlite.html

The R values you quote probably do not apply to a block wall, which in itself is horrible insulation.  The webs of the block conduct heat out very well. 

The foam I'm thinking of using is the type used for existing home refits. I don't know if it's open or closed, only that it beats the shit out of loose fill.

 

 

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5 hours ago, bmiller said:

Persolite was a trade name for perlite, some kind of mineral based product. Here's a link.

https://www.perlite.org/industry/insulation-perlite.html

The R values you quote probably do not apply to a block wall, which in itself is horrible insulation.  The webs of the block conduct heat out very well. 

The foam I'm thinking of using is the type used for existing home refits. I don't know if it's open or closed, only that it beats the shit out of loose fill.

It's probably not a big deal, and the foam sounds like a good price, but I think they're not giving you the right numbers.

The concrete block is about R-0.1/inch or a little less, (it's pretty conductive) so for the inside and outside walls, you'll get about R-1.5 added to the cavity fill. Perlite is about R-2.7/inch, so a 6-inch fill plus the concrete blocks should give you a real-world R-15. The open cell spray foam (which is the type they used to blow into walls for retrofits) is good for about R-3.5/inch, so the 6-inch fill plus the concrete blocks should give you a real world R-20. I'm quite sure that the price quoted is open cell foam, which definitely needs a moisture barrier all the way around it, because open cell foam (unlike the expensive closed cell stuff) will absorb lots of water.

Yes, open cell foam is much better than blown fiberglass, but it's not as good as blown cellulose. Regular old Home Depot blown cellulose is R-3.6/inch or so, depending on the brand. It's pretty cheap and it manages moisture much better than open cell foam. With the block walls, you'll get close to the same R-20 as the open cell foam. And when you buy 20 bags, they'll give you a free 24 hour rental of the blower. Each bag is about $15, at a 6-inch cavity, you'll get 40-square feet of wall per bag, so a 30 x 40 foot building with 15 foot walls is something like 55 bags, about $300 cheaper than perlite, for a higher performance insulation. Cellulose is the best insulation in my opinion, behind closed cell foam, if price isn't an object. University of Colorado did some site tests with cellulose, http://coloradohomeenergypros.com/insulation-facts/

Our current home has cellulose and it's noticeably better than our old house that was retrofitted with the open cell foam. True, the foam was sprayed about 12 years before we bought the place, and the old house was in a much windier location the new house, also the new house was just built, but I can't find a single cold spot in the house, unlike the old house that had cold spots all over, because the dipshits from KB Homes didn't put a vapor barrier wrap about the house before they hung the siding, and I'm quite sure there was a good bit of water infiltration. They didn't use a rainscreen either, just nailed the siding to the wallboard.

I have no idea why your installer is selling perlite, I thought that stuff was extinct for fill, except for high-temp stuff like woodfired pizza ovens. Maybe it's good for masonry walls, I have practically no experience with those ... maybe there is a reason why cellulose won't work in a block wall cavity? I'm curious now, I don't know much about the specifics of block wall cavities, I assume that it's okay as long as the moisture barrier is in there ... in the old days they just left them empty, the air gap was the insulation, R-1/inch ... it wasn't too bad, a 12 inch gap gave R-12. Maybe the perlite is useful without the moisture barrier, but if they're going to spray foam without a moisture barrier, that's not going to work well in the long run, concrete is moisture permeable.

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Update, things are moving along.

IMG_4299

 

IMG_4300

 

My truck spent it's first ever night inside under a roof.

IMG_4301

 

IMG_4302

 

The trusses were built to accommodate storage. When it's done most of the length will have 5/8" osb 8' wide with little knee walls to keep stuff from falling off.

IMG_4303

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As soon as the overhead doors go in the KTM can live inside, instead of the stuffy ass trailer. Might even put my wife's Polaris in there!

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Update:

Heating guy is coming by in the morning to help decide what size heater to use. 

Roofers were here this morning and banged out 17 square in 3 hours. Would have taken me a week at least. This is one hour in.

IMG_4322

 

I finished up the fascia/soffit. Now to get the gables stuccoed.

IMG_4323

IMG_4324

 

IMG_4325

 

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Got a lot done in the last few weeks.

Installed windows and man door, finished the gables, had overhead doors and gutters installed, added a pull down ladder to the upper cathedral. Finish graded three sides.

It is now weather tight and secure, just in time for a trip to Maui. 

When I get back it's time to run gas and electric.

IMG_4338

IMG_4339IMG_4341

IMG_4343

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On 8/9/2017 at 5:57 PM, bmiller said:

 

 

Some of you may find this as sexy as I do. Brand new Smith 5 lam 4 footer. My old 4 footer was on it's last leg.

IMG_4232

Yes, as a matter of fact, I found that so sexy I went back to look at it to see if I could figure out what it was, as my solid  25 year old wood level is more trouble than it is a help.  Thanks for the info. A Smith you say?

 

 I'm going shopping.

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Shi'ite: Northerner problems.

Here in Floriduh, I'm looking at air conditioning the man-cave (a walled-off third bay of the garage), to keep the temp and the humidity below triple digits. Thinking about a Mitsubishi ductless A/C unit.  About 9 or 10k BTUs to cool the 21x12 space. It'll run 10 months out of the year.

Any thoughts? 

Beautiful workshop, BM. You going to separate the workshop from the parking space with a hard wall?

 

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1 hour ago, Nettles said:

Yes, as a matter of fact, I found that so sexy I went back to look at it to see if I could figure out what it was, as my solid  25 year old wood level is more trouble than it is a help.  Thanks for the info. A Smith you say?

 

 I'm going shopping.

Yes it is a Smith 5 lam.

In the photo below the 2 footer on top I bought 30 some odd years ago when I was still in the trade full time. Same company, different fluid in the vials.

 

IMG_4344

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1 hour ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Shi'ite: Northerner problems.

Here in Floriduh, I'm looking at air conditioning the man-cave (a walled-off third bay of the garage), to keep the temp and the humidity below triple digits. Thinking about a Mitsubishi ductless A/C unit.  About 9 or 10k BTUs to cool the 21x12 space. It'll run 10 months out of the year.

Any thoughts? 

Beautiful workshop, BM. You going to separate the workshop from the parking space with a hard wall?

 

Sort of, there will be a "clean room/office" framed out in the N/W corner. The view out that way is pretty nice.

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On 10/8/2017 at 3:51 PM, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Shi'ite: Northerner problems.

Here in Floriduh, I'm looking at air conditioning the man-cave (a walled-off third bay of the garage), to keep the temp and the humidity below triple digits. Thinking about a Mitsubishi ductless A/C unit.  About 9 or 10k BTUs to cool the 21x12 space. It'll run 10 months out of the year.

Any thoughts? 

Beautiful workshop, BM. You going to separate the workshop from the parking space with a hard wall?

 

if you are talkin Jap Mini-Split ya can't go wrong

But get a 2 ton / 24,000 btu  16 seer is Old stuff so you should get a screaming deal (CL in LA)

I put one in me rental house and it's LOVED for AC - Heat

Cheep to run & I did it all myself except hooking up the hoses

guys did it smoking pot and drinkin beer
I want to learn and get the kit to do it

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On 8/9/2017 at 2:57 PM, bmiller said:

Yes I am comparing apples to apples. 

The walls are 8" block, the cavity is a6out 6". Loose fill, also called persolite, gets you an R-value of about 4.5.

The foam that is injected after the walls are up is a low expansion product and gets an R-value 0f 11.

Cost for foam is 1,500, cost for loose fill is right around 1,200

 

Edit to add:

Some of you may find this as sexy as I do. Brand new Smith 5 lam 4 footer. My old 4 footer was on it's last leg.

IMG_4232

where be all the rebar pokein out everywhere ???

did ya fill em all or ?????

what kinda seismic engineering did you work into that ??

ore do you live in one of those places that will Never get an earthquake ???

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1 hour ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

 
Did you use standard, off the shelf engineering drawings for your workshop? Or did you pay a local propeller head to draw them up? 

How do I get a copy? 

Had a local guy draw the plans, the county has some basic minimums so those were included. Nothing special about this job so it was really easy. 

54 minutes ago, DA-WOODY said:

where be all the rebar pokein out everywhere ???

did ya fill em all or ?????

what kinda seismic engineering did you work into that ??

ore do you live in one of those places that will Never get an earthquake ???

There is plenty of rebar, you just can't see it in that photo. And it don't shake much around here. anyway

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Update, A trip to Maui set me back a bit on schedule, since returning the following was completed:

Buried gas, electric and that RG11 that is causing me so much confusion.

Roughed in the electric and gas pipe. Now have power in the building.

Framed in the office.

Insulated.

20171115_154717

 

20171115_154732

20171115_155553

20171115_155651

 

20171115_15491120171115_154855

 

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3 hours ago, bmiller said:

Update, A trip to Maui set me back a bit on schedule, since returning the following was completed:

Buried gas, electric and that RG11 that is causing me so much confusion.

Roughed in the electric and gas pipe. Now have power in the building.

Framed in the office.

Insulated.

20171115_154717

 

20171115_154732

20171115_155553

20171115_155651

 

20171115_15491120171115_154855

 

Question:

are all the cells of your wall filled ?

if not any reason you didn't run yer Electric & CAT wires down a hallow cell to a Box cut in one of the blocks ??

There is ALWAYS Something Else you Could have done and that project looks Bitchin

but would look better w wires in the wall ( No Conduit needed through an empty cell) might need to be fastened where you can't reach But none the less 

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Cells are filled every 32", or every 4th cell with grout and rebar, the rest were pumped with foam insulation. 

I could have run conduit when the walls were built but it didn't bother me to have exposed conduit inside. It has that industrial look!

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3 minutes ago, bmiller said:

Cells are filled every 32", or every 4th cell with grout and rebar, the rest were pumped with foam insulation. 

I could have run conduit when the walls were built but it didn't bother me to have exposed conduit inside. It has that industrial look!

fair enough !!

I built a Warehouse  on my rental property "As I wanted it"

wanted more when I was done but None the less I did it MY way

Good On You !!!

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Progress update:

Hired a guy much younger than I to hang and tape the sheetrock. Money well spent.
[IMG]

Everything, well except some trim, is painted. Really brightens it up. That will be good for late night bike repairs.
[IMG]
[IMG][IMG]
[IMG]

My "office" got a raised floor to keep it warm on my little toes.

[IMG]
[IMG]
It will get some left over cork flooring from the house build in a few days.

This is my special window from our old house. I asked the new owners if I could take it, the said OK. It's kind of a snap shot of me.

[IMG]

Also got some exterior work done. This will keep the mud down along the walls.
[IMG]


That's it for now. The next priority will be finishing the heater install and the office floor.

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This is what started the thread, finally got the heater in service. It's running right now burning off the factory stink. 

Yes it is warm in the shop. 20's outside right now.

20171206_125129-600x450.jpg20171206_125141-338x450.jpg

 

It will be awhile now before any more updates. The slow stuff like figuring out the bench and shelving is next. I have all winter for that.

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Nice, but I'd suggest you either get a longer flexible gas line or anchor the heater unit laterally to the same rail that's anchoring the iron pipe. I know you're not in earthquake country but it's not impossible and there are plenty of other ways it could get knocked and rip that corrugated line open. 

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I thought you were higher up in the mtns Mister miller.  Buena, Salida or in between??  

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3 hours ago, shaggy said:

I thought you were higher up in the mtns Mister miller.  Buena, Salida or in between??  

BV, right in town.

 

3 hours ago, IStream said:

Nice, but I'd suggest you either get a longer flexible gas line or anchor the heater unit laterally to the same rail that's anchoring the iron pipe. I know you're not in earthquake country but it's not impossible and there are plenty of other ways it could get knocked and rip that corrugated line open. 

I am going to have an HVAC guy I know come by and check my work and the gas pressure. I'll ask him about that.

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Ha, I have a friend that married into a pretty well off family.  His Inlaws are the pinky up type and were telling everyone that would listen at the wedding that they had a ranch in Aspen.  Well my wifie and I, she having grown up in Crestone, sidled up to the parents in the reception line and asked where...  The look on their face was priceless when she said oh I grew up in Crestone, we drive through BV all the time,  Did Aspen Anex Mt Elbert??  I found a smart one...   :P:D

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Let me know next time you are passing through. Unless I got the hell away from the cold and went camping in the desert.

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5 hours ago, bmiller said:

....The slow stuff like figuring out the bench and shelving is next. I have all winter for that.

This is my guncave. The cabinets and work benches are from Serville Classics via Sam's Club.  Good stuff, well made, strong, and not too expensive. 

i-nxRSR99-L.jpg

If you've got a Sam's Club nearby,  you can take a look at the line.  If not, they ship it for free from their website: 

https://www.samsclub.com/sams/search/searchResults.jsp?searchCategoryId=all&searchTerm=serville&fromHome=yes&_requestid=2426942

And.... yes the photo sucks and the bench is a cluttered fiasco: I'm still putting the mancave together.  Next is a Mitsubishi split unit air conditioning system.  Then a lock on the door.  Then I can have some quiet.

:rolleyes:

BTW: I'm getting Charlotte the 6' x 2' Adjustable Work Bench for Christmas. It'll be perfect for her crafts.   

 

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On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 9:27 AM, Point Break said:

jealous :(

You have a 42 foot sailboat moored in Long Beach. I'm equally jealous.

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7 minutes ago, bmiller said:

You have a 42 foot sailboat moored in Long Beach. I'm equally jealous.

I guess its all give and take. You know you have a standing invitation for a ride if you're out here. 

I was looking at a place just up the road from you for a 2nd place for some of the year. I think its a bit bigger than I want though.................is this a nice part of the area?

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Buena-Vista-CO/pmf,pf_pt/96849905_zpid/37640_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/39.251131,-105.945626,38.643422,-106.602059_rect/10_zm/

Would it be wiser to buy a hunk of land and build smaller to suit?

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16 minutes ago, Point Break said:

I guess its all give and take. You know you have a standing invitation for a ride if you're out here. 

I was looking at a place just up the road from you for a 2nd place for some of the year. I think its a bit bigger than I want though.................is this a nice part of the area?

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Buena-Vista-CO/pmf,pf_pt/96849905_zpid/37640_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/39.251131,-105.945626,38.643422,-106.602059_rect/10_zm/

Would it be wiser to buy a hunk of land and build smaller to suit?

I didn't know there were any houses up there, that's the road to Otero pump station. It's up the canyon a bit and not much around. But that could be a good thing.  This aint Long Beach.

As far as building goes it is crazy out here right now. Every contractor is swamped and booking out years in advance. It can be done but you would have to be here and do a lot yourself. 

The Colorado market is unbelievable right now. Wait a couple years after it crashes and swoop in.

BTW I will be out in January. 

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There is a Good reason you Won't find these guys in your YellowPages

Mensa Drywall Ceiling / Hang, Tape, Mud and Texture Company

 question from a guy with a few roll-up doors (1 insulated)

what do you have around the door to keep the KOLD OUT (Draft Stop) ??

 

 

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4 minutes ago, DA-WOODY said:

There is a Good reason you Won't find these guys in your YellowPages

Mensa Drywall Ceiling / Hang, Tape, Mud and Texture Company

 question from a guy with a few roll-up doors (1 insulated)

what do you have around the door to keep the KOLD OUT (Draft Stop) ??

 

 

Kitten pelts. 

Thanks for the link, everybody should check it out.

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4 hours ago, Point Break said:

I guess its all give and take. You know you have a standing invitation for a ride if you're out here. 

I was looking at a place just up the road from you for a 2nd place for some of the year. I think its a bit bigger than I want though.................is this a nice part of the area?

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Buena-Vista-CO/pmf,pf_pt/96849905_zpid/37640_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/39.251131,-105.945626,38.643422,-106.602059_rect/10_zm/

Would it be wiser to buy a hunk of land and build smaller to suit?

That's a good deal imo, be careful about land only in some areas. I don't know how bmiller handled water and septic, but if you can't get city water, then you're drilling. And drilling is no longer a couple thousand dollar investment, the full rigs are in demand with solution mining, your all-in cost can get up to $70/foot if you don't get lucky. Friends in Gilpin County have spent $50k on their well.

And yes, the market here loves to crash, it's done so regularly over the last 50 years. But the economy here is way more diversified than it was. Not just oil and gas, now it's logistics and tech too.

I think that if you can afford that place in the ad or someplace similar as a vacation home that you won't see those prices again for a long time, maybe never. Midwesterners and Easterners move here with family money, high paying jobs, and they just love to snap up less-than-$500k vacation homes up near Salida, it's one of the trendiest areas in the state.

A friend who lives in Alice got one of those killer deals on his house like the one in your listing, about 10k feet. When he got in two years ago the vacancy was about 25%, Californians selling their copper-roof homes at less than their construction price. Now it's zero vacancy, but only about 30% year-round occupancy. His summer neighbors are a lot of locals who make $250k/year in tech. If you find a good deal in this state, it's not going to last. That house in your ad will be gone before March. In fact, a coworker is retiring next year, his wife wants 3+ acres, and he likes Chaffee County. I'll show him that listing tomorrow. He has a garage CNC setup for making wooden gear clocks, his planned retirement venture, he'll lose his cookies over that detached garage, and his home in the Denver area will sell for twice that.

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23 minutes ago, mikewof said:

That's a good deal imo, be careful about land only in some areas. I don't know how bmiller handled water and septic, but if you can't get city water, then you're drilling. And drilling is no longer a couple thousand dollar investment, the full rigs are in demand with solution mining, your all-in cost can get up to $70/foot if you don't get lucky. Friends in Gilpin County have spent $50k on their well.

And yes, the market here loves to crash, it's done so regularly over the last 50 years. But the economy here is way more diversified than it was. Not just oil and gas, now it's logistics and tech too.

I think that if you can afford that place in the ad or someplace similar as a vacation home that you won't see those prices again for a long time, maybe never. Midwesterners and Easterners move here with family money, high paying jobs, and they just love to snap up less-than-$500k vacation homes up near Salida, it's one of the trendiest areas in the state.

A friend who lives in Alice got one of those killer deals on his house like the one in your listing, about 10k feet. When he got in two years ago the vacancy was about 25%, Californians selling their copper-roof homes at less than their construction price. Now it's zero vacancy, but only about 30% year-round occupancy. His summer neighbors are a lot of locals who make $250k/year in tech. If you find a good deal in this state, it's not going to last. That house in your ad will be gone before March. In fact, a coworker is retiring next year, his wife wants 3+ acres, and he likes Chaffee County. I'll show him that listing tomorrow. He has a garage CNC setup for making wooden gear clocks, his planned retirement venture, he'll lose his cookies over that detached garage, and his home in the Denver area will sell for twice that.

But WTF would it cost to HEAT that Fucker

well I guess if you only go when it's Nice out

Looks like you could grow WEED all across the walls

when there not under the snow

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7 hours ago, DA-WOODY said:

But WTF would it cost to HEAT that Fucker

well I guess if you only go when it's Nice out

Looks like you could grow WEED all across the walls

when there not under the snow

The listing says it's passive solar, that should help. And it wouldn't cost much to cool it. Wood burning stove, and one run a year up to Routt National Forest to get as much deadfall as you can haul out of there, Bob's yer uncle.

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Just checked out the listing for that house, electric base board heat. That will be very expensive to heat, solar or not.  And in the summer all that solar gain makes for a hot house. That's what lots of people find out after they build up here.

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14 hours ago, bmiller said:

Kitten pelts. 

Thanks for the link, everybody should check it out.

I cannot believe you clicked on a link from Woody. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nor can I believe that ya got me to ya bastard!

:)

 

WL

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2 hours ago, bmiller said:

Just checked out the listing for that house, electric base board heat. That will be very expensive to heat, solar or not.  And in the summer all that solar gain makes for a hot house. That's what lots of people find out after they build up here.

True, but at 9k-some feet, how much more cooling do you need than an attic fan and a swamp cooler? And the baseboard is probably ancillary, room heat, turn it on just in the rooms you need it. The listing says it has a pellet stove, so about 1 ton of pellets per month, about $250, that's not too bad. I pay nearly three times that much every month in my county just for the fucking property tax. Fucking Jefferson County! Once both daughters are off to college and it's just the wife, son and me, I would like to move to Clear Creek County, or Gilpin County. Jeffco sucks meaty balls.

Property tax on that one in your area, plus the HOA for that private lake is only about $150/month.

I showed that house to my soon-to-retire co-worker, he digs it, he already sent the link to his wife.

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I was wrong about which side of the highway that house is on. It's in a nice area if you like being away. Just a few neighbors. More elk than people come winter.

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45 minutes ago, bmiller said:

I was wrong about which side of the highway that house is on. It's in a nice area if you like being away. Just a few neighbors. More elk than people come winter.

If he buys that house, you might get a new ex-NASA electrical engineer neighbor with a half-sheet CNC router.

I'll miss him down in the flatlands, but this place is becoming unliveable, too many angry people, almost all of them in a hurry to get places for some reason. You're fortunate to live sufficiently far from this emerging global shithole.

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45 minutes ago, bmiller said:

I was wrong about which side of the highway that house is on. It's in a nice area if you like being away. Just a few neighbors. More elk than people come winter.

That is pretty much the environment I am looking for. I have plenty of neighbors here in So Cal....I am looking for a place with few neighbors and NO streetlights :lol:. Not Ted Kaczynski remote.....but a bit rural nonetheless. 

That place is a little bigger than I am thinking, 2 bedrooms is all I would need but I would like some property and a large garage/shop on the property. The point about the baseboard heating is well made, especially with that large vaulted ceiling space. I notice no AC either although that wouldn't be a deal breaker.

I'll keep looking around, I'm probably 6 months out from a likely purchase anyway unless I stumble across "perfection". 

As for Jan, PM me your details and we'll see what the timing brings. At the least a nice dinner at the yacht club, but a boat ride as well would be fun.

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

That is pretty much the environment I am looking for. I have plenty of neighbors here in So Cal....I am looking for a place with few neighbors and NO streetlights :lol:. Not Ted Kaczynski remote.....but a bit rural nonetheless. 

That place is a little bigger than I am thinking, 2 bedrooms is all I would need but I would like some property and a large garage/shop on the property. The point about the baseboard heating is well made, especially with that large vaulted ceiling space. I notice no AC either although that wouldn't be a deal breaker.

I'll keep looking around, I'm probably 6 months out from a likely purchase anyway unless I stumble across "perfection". 

As for Jan, PM me your details and we'll see what the timing brings. At the least a nice dinner at the yacht club, but a boat ride as well would be fun.

I'll keep my eyes open. Is the workshop necessary right away or is that something you could do later? What is the budget? You can pm that if you want.

Are you set on CO or would someplace else work? I ask because it's crazy right now in this state.

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17 minutes ago, bmiller said:

I'll keep my eyes open. Is the workshop necessary right away or is that something you could do later? What is the budget? You can pm that if you want.

Are you set on CO or would someplace else work? I ask because it's crazy right now in this state.

I am not set on CO at all. I have begun preliminary looking in that and the surrounding states. I am focused in those states because I'd like it to be within reasonable driving distance instead of flying as the dog will be coming back and forth with me. So far have simply been haunting the various "homes for sale" internet sources - zillow, remax, etc - to get a feel for the $$ involved and areas of interest. I don't want to be hours from paved roads and a store, but am not interested in neighbors so much as solitude and open country. I have lots of neighbors here. I am not interested in a suburban home. Off grid is fine but I am past living any sort of "spartan" camping existence. Workshop can be added later. Part of the search is also to develop a budget but in broad terms I'd say 500K is the absolute upper, I'd be a lot happier in the 300's & below. 

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Just now, bmiller said:

That's a healthy budget for a second home. California FD pensions must be a bit better than CO pensions!

Well.....I did 37 years.....Mrs PB did 27 years......and we both VERY aggressively contributed to deferred comp for about 20 years. B)

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1 minute ago, Point Break said:

Well.....I did 37 years.....Mrs PB did 27 years......and we both VERY aggressively contributed to deferred comp for about 20 years. B)

Yeah, well I got a cool bell.

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Dude.....that’s better than we give our guys! Mrs PB and I both have all our badges of all ranks we held (most of them our own actual badges) in a shadow box display but we did that ourselves. We also both kept our helmets. A bell would have been cool though.......

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