WetnWild

A Cat Worlds Sopot

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21 hours ago, SimonN said:

 

Fuck it. Why bother.

I enjoy your posts and find them educational.  Please keep them coming. 

rob

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So what do we know so far? Well, it seems to be a very close championship. There are a number of people who are in the hunt, each having their moments. I think that the finishing order from here will be decided by the conditions but whoever wins will be fully deserving.

In terms of platforms, it seems that Exploder have finally cracked it. While there are clearly more of them sailing, it looks like the Exploders are faster in every condition. DNA have prided themselves in not having needed to develop their foils, but it looks like that has come back to bite them. How DNA respond will be interesting as it is getting late in the season in Europe, so I guess we won't know until well into next year if they can get back on the pace. Will Exploder keep developing? 

This leads to a big question. Could Glenn Ashby have won on a DNA? Most of us in Australia know he has super human powers and on equal boats, nobody can touch him. As for Mischa, has lack of time in the boat been a big issue and is it too hard to properly campaign 2 classes? I would bet that if he had to choose, he would be happy to keep the F18 title.

Do you need a boom? Looking at the results, it doesn't seem so with the current 1,2, 6 and 7 not using them. It also looks like standard Fiberfoam masts are more prominent at the front than the DNA style masts. Brewin Sails are looking good as are the local Bryt Sails.

The short rig has only made it onto one of the top boats so it's hard to draw any conclusions on that. You have to think it is the future, but will it always have a light wind weakness?

Poland is the up and coming A Class nation. I hope they can keep this going post worlds.

Anything else people have spotted?

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Tough day yesterday, 2 last races in qualification wasn't fun + a lot of destroyed boats. Long line of people outside Jakubs trailer to get new bits and getting things fixed.

1 racing in gold finals were more fun. Wind decreased a little to 6-8 m/s, changing direction, so the waves weren't as bad.

Really tricky first upwind, and some were caught out, and had a hard time making up ground (some didn't and it's way harder to do so in the gold fleet). Then wind stabilized in strength and rest of race was fun, but still tricky. 

On the platforms there's some good products. Whether eXploder is faster or it's a numbers game, I can't tell, but they're all seem competitive. I don't think it would change the results if they all swapped boats.

Weather forecast for today is not good for racing - 3 m/s and decreasing. First start at 10.

 

 

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Thanks, Lars. Besides a bow being taken off, was there any pattern to the boat damage? What sort of things were breaking?

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Tear and wear, and foils by getting off and on the beach. Some mast and boom fitting s because the decksweeper sails puts more stress on the boom fitting. Some boats had structural problems, but I couldn't keep up with the extent.

And the bow getting off was a hard leeward luward collision where the didn't see each other, luckily nobody was hurt. A local woman from town (with no connection to the race) was almost killed in a car accident just next to harbour when we where going out. Then a couple of destroyed boats isn't so important

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3 minutes ago, Lars Schrøder d 13 said:

Tear and wear, and foils by getting off and on the beach. Some mast and boom fitting s because the decksweeper sails puts more stress on the boom fitting. Some boats had structural problems, but I couldn't keep up with the extent.

Thanks again. The booms do seem to be a source of problems with decksweepers. We have seen a number of mast breakages in Australia due to the pressure of the boom and I believe the latest Fiberfoam masts are reinforced to take the increased loads. Seems to me to be another great reason to get rid of the boom!

Funny thing about the booms I heard at the nationals. It seems that some people thought they were struggling with rotation because of the way the booms attach to the side of the mast and that rotation wasn't equal on both sides. In most conditions, the boomless rigs seem to rotate OK but i did see that Stevie had over rotation lines on his boat that i believe he uses upwind in light stuff.

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On 8/23/2017 at 2:34 PM, SimonN said:

 

Fuck it. Why bother.

Please continue to post.

I enjoy reading your viewpoint.

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First heat of the day done. Results are on event Facebook. 

Conditions light and fading a bit. The hope is to do 3. 

Something that is breaking a lot are gudgeons and associated gear on the dagger rudders. But we know that would happen as rudders are solid when hitting things. It's the downside of getting them rock solid. 

Some great news out of the AGM is the enthusiastic endorsement by presidents for the classic discipline. We will now be able to support all our sailors and have great options for everyone. So two champions in events from now on! The draft championship rules were also endorsed meaning open championships where possible. 

Presidents were also asked to ensure measurement standards were supported in their countries after some skippers had not raced with compliant equipment. 

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21 hours ago, darth reapius said:

Making me think of the 2010 Perth Tornado Nationals with that storm talk!

 

50 knots and golfball size hail....

Burville / Fugill getting smashed

 

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Estevie N looking very good at this stage. The other standout performances are Dave Shaw and the junior Jakub Suroweic. 

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4 hours ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

With only 2 races tomorrow, Stevie has an insurmountable lead...... Well done Stalkie, won it with day to spare

Not correct. If they sail another race, they get another discard. Manuel Cavaria an still beat Stevie. He drops a 55th taking him to 16 points. If they get 2 races and he wins both, he is tied with Stevie on 18 points (assuming Stevie doesn't improve on his 5th). Cavaria wins on countback. 

If they get only one race in, then Stevie wins. If they get 2 races, Stevie needs a 4th or better to guarantee him the title.

Forecast is looking very marginal

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17 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Not correct. If they sail another race, they get another discard. Manuel Cavaria an still beat Stevie. He drops a 55th taking him to 16 points. If they get 2 races and he wins both, he is tied with Stevie on 18 points (assuming Stevie doesn't improve on his 5th). Cavaria wins on countback. 

If they get only one race in, then Stevie wins. If they get 2 races, Stevie needs a 4th or better to guarantee him the title.

Forecast is looking very marginal

Agree with that analysis. Odds are certainly in Stevie's favour. He has earned this position with a cool consistent performance. Regatta dinner was great. 

What a performance overall by the Polish organisers. 

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1 minute ago, WetnWild said:

Agree with that analysis.

I might not be able to sail the boats very well any more, but I can still count! :lol:

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Jakub needs to get to work on an F16 fast and find a couple of good sailors for the worlds in Januaray (wouldn't be hard given his contacts).  Would be amazing to hold A class, F16 and F18 world championships at the same time.

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JD your thoughts on how Oz A class officialdom or organisors do PR at the Hervey Bay worlds to equal the team effort at Sopot? 

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Very little wind yesterday but rather stable, partly, in some part of the races.... the sailor's with best sailing skills won (speed, starts, tactics) won. Amazing how the best can fly in so little wind. And how much you can loose if you get it wrong.

I'm having a sail that's way to full, so couldn't make things working today, very frustrating. Even started shouting = wrong. Was looking for the chainsaw coming back in.

Today's seems good, 7-9 m/s flat water.

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1 hour ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

F18s are still a few years away if Australia are selected.

Missing the point mate.  Mische won the F18 worlds on an Exploder, someone (probably stevie) is about the win the A worlds on an Exploder.  Jakub (Exploder) needs an F16 model so he can make the set.  Something no builder has ever done.  Compared to the others, you'd have to call the F16 worlds particularly next year's down here low hanging fruit.

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Yeah, missed that one too. Have to stop skim reading these posts :D

A's, F16's and likely F18s all to have Worlds in Oz in the next few years though. Should be exciting.

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46 minutes ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

Yeah, missed that one too. Have to stop skim reading these posts :D

A's, F16's and likely F18s all to have Worlds in Oz in the next few years though. Should be exciting.

Will you be able to buy and sell boats fast enough to keep up?

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4 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Will you be able to buy and sell boats fast enough to keep up?

I was waiting for that :P.  I might step up and do some crewing again this season along side the A Class sailing.  Getting back into training and have dropped from 92kg to 86.  Target will be to get under 80kg.

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So if there is no further race today, then this was the WC and yesterday's overall results are the final, correct?

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Great campaign by Estevie N. A haircut is on the cards later today.

POL ran a great event in all respects and got four in the top ten. Well done. 

The trophy returns to it's spiritual home. 

 

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10 hours ago, mitchellsailor said:

Could Exploder make a quick enough F16 that it wins a world championship cat rig though? There's a challenge..

Why? The class has 4 strong builders already and the market isn't that big. Could Exploder/CSN/D3 design a boat capable of winning? Absolutely. Would they sell enough to make it worth their time? I don't think so.

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5 hours ago, WetnWild said:

Great campaign by Estevie N. A haircut is on the cards later today.

POL ran a great event in all respects and got four in the top ten. Well done. 

The trophy returns to it's spiritual home. 

 

Huge congrats to Stevie!

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1 hour ago, manicsh said:

if there isn't video or photographs it didn't actually happen...fake news :lol:

 

Stevie attacking Stevie.  Now they look like brothers :D

IMG_0270.PNG

IMG_0271.PNG

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Yeah, congratulations to Stevie Brewin, he was so fast that I hardly saw him anywhere on the course outside the start. The others in top 10 were more seen all over.

And a very good Worlds, wonderful spot and wonderful arranged by Jacek and his crew.

No big changes in development. Incremental this time around. Shorter masts didn't seem to pay off. Upwind flying did. For some. Downwind the fastest can fly in hardly no wind. 3-4 m/s. 

So get out on the water and do a lot of good training, it pays off. As usual. Big a-cat fleets are rare, so the fastest at this world's practice with other fast sailors.

Next up is Europeans in Warnemünde in July 2018, kind of like Sopot, probably with more waves. But also more regular. It'll be fun.

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No big gear changes? The fact that Exploder went to 40cm aft of the beam late last year, worked hard on aero, developed 3 new rudder winglets alone in the last 3-4 months, moved to cassettes AND launched Z22's did nothing to dethrone the current F18 world champion, 2016 A Cat world champion and 5x world champion DNA design???

Don't get me wrong, the time Stevie and the entire Exploder camp spent on the water was high, very high. The settings matter as much as the boat, as far as straightline speed. It of course takes the sailor to connect the dots and sail consistently day after day to make the event, but in a competitive development boat if you don't show up with speed you end your chances.

I'll say this, even the boats from late 2016 are plenty fast and foil easily when properly setup. The Aussies have the right setup. Tuesday was my first time on the boat with the Aussie setup and it was a different beast. 10 minutes in I'm running upwind with the boards at +2 (on my borrowed boat, so this could be off some), it's blowing 15 or so and an 18-20kt puff hits. I bear off 10deg (5 for the puff change), ease mainsheet to keep the boat flat, slowly come out of the water, accelerate and sheet main in and climb back 10 degrees-5 higher than before the puff. I hold it for about 30 seconds before the puff goes away and my basic skillset fails to keep me going. This was never possible with the 'normal' settings, I promise you that. I tried plenty of times and the boat was unstable at best upwind. This was smooth, effortless foiling. The boat was great, now it's simply awesome!!

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2 hours ago, samc99us said:

No big gear changes? The fact that Exploder went to 40cm aft of the beam late last year, worked hard on aero, developed 3 new rudder winglets alone in the last 3-4 months, moved to cassettes AND launched Z22's did nothing to dethrone the current F18 world champion, 2016 A Cat world champion and 5x world champion DNA design???

I don't think you are right with what you are implying. They have made incremental improvements to the boat over a period of a year. That's what happens in development classes. If you have a boat from last year, all you need is a new set of rudders and centerboards. There have been no real advances on aero. 3 of the top 5 used a tramp developed 2 years ago while the 2nd place boat didn't even have a double skin tramp (very old school) and the other top 5 didn't use the new Exploder tramp either. Where is the "hard work on aero" because I would say that there has been little change to aero. There was a couple of boats with a prototype carbon tramp, but i don't believe anybody at the front was using it and am not even sure it is a production item. I also agree with what is said above, that while it looks slick, the traveller and mainsheet are up in the airflow so it isn't actually very aero compared with other Exploders or the F1. 

I personally don't see it as big gear changes, more like improving what was already there. The best bit is that every piece that the front runners used is available to everybody. I was told today that Mischa uses foils that aren't available to anybody else and has been since the F1 came out. I also wonder how much difference the changes really make compared with practice in sailing the boats. I have been told to only upgrade the winglets on my rudders, which will cost me $200. I always consider any development cycle where you can keep the same platform and upgrade components as a low change cycle and with the low costs of Exploder gear, I am happy, because all I care about is whether my boat is outdated and how much is it going to cost to update. Anybody hoping to win a major championships will be buying a new boat anyway. For the rest of us mortals. If you have an AD3, you have a decent platform and even if you want to upgrade fully, it's not going to cost a fortune. The pressure is  now on DNA because they cannot really move beams and boards because of how they build their boats and they don't have competitive boards at the moment. I wouldn't want to have one of those on the way to me at the moment because that is a lot of money on a boat that I would have to wait and hope that they can get competitive again. They have had a great run and achieved amazing things, but they now have a whole new world to conquer. For the last 6 Worlds, they have had the best boats and everybody else has been playing catch up. Now it is their turn to try to do so.

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Different takes on the z22s, mostly that they perform equally downwind, better for flying upwind (which only 1-2-4 sailors could get to pay anyway). Also that the z10s should be less sensitive, so easier to sail.

I have no clue on changes to rudder-designs. Aero-stuff looked like the same, I didn’t notice any changes. Sails looked the same, a lot of bryt-sails, they seem to work well for standard-fiberfoam-masts.

I'm not sure the F1s are slower, maybe foils could be more refined, but the DNA-gang misses some quality-training groups, where both the polish and australians are better organised. And hours on the water are the most important part, especially with others fast sailors.

I find it hard to believe that Mischa should have special gear! it wouldnt really make sense, unless its some prototyping. It would make selling of boats hard, if you cant buy the same gear as him + very expensive to do just 2 or 3 sets of boards. so it must be a rumour heard on the harbour.

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5 minutes ago, Lars Schrøder d 13 said:

I find it hard to believe that Mischa should have special gear! it wouldnt really make sense, unless its some prototyping. It would make selling of boats hard, if you cant buy the same gear as him + very expensive to do just 2 or 3 sets of boards. so it must be a rumour heard on the harbour.

I am as certain as I can be that Mischa does have non standard main foils. I was first told about it last year. I was told it again during the last week. The sources who told me I trust 100% and they aren't spreading harbour gossip but telling me what they have seen. It shouldn't come as a big surprise. To start with, he is bigger than most so would benefit from different foils. Also look at it from another viewpoint. Stevie is known to have used foils that never went into production because while others didn't like them, they suited him. For instance, Stevie won the Australian Nationals with Z11's, a board that I believe was rejected for production because they are harder to use. Unless DNA have only ever made one design of boards, which i doubt, it seems logical to me that Mischa might prefer a development foil that was considered unsuitable for general sale. 

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As the OP here I'd make my final comments on the Sopot Worlds. 

It has made me proud to be a long term member of the class. The event was run to the highest standards and the organisers are to be congratulated on every aspect of the regatta. The sailors excelled with the spirit and intensity they brought to their individual campaigns. Once again we saw people legendary in their own spheres freely sharing their knowledge and experience with others. Surely almost unique in the sporting world. I saw big names readily signing caps for kids and the next moment sharing a joke and a technical tip with anyone in the fleet. 

I have really enjoyed the comments on this thread. We all have some knowledge to contribute but no one knows all. There has been the occasional prickliness but I'm sure we're all thick skinned enough to accept robust conversation with good humour.

As others have noted the progression has been incremental in equipment this year rather than revolutionary. But behind the scenes a huge amount of work has gone in to overall campaigns. Many sailors spent long periods at the venue and elsewhere around the world developing their skills and testing equipment to bring to the event. There were many very talented sailors at the event capable of winning. Only one of them was able to put together the total package and provide the consistency that wins titles. He most certainly applied the the six P's principle. Estevie Norman Brewin we all salute you. You have done your country, your family and yourself proud. It is now time for you to take the coveted AUS1 sail number. You've emerged from the pack to become the second most successful A Cat sailor ever. 

I can't wait for the next Worlds in Hervey Bay Australia November 2018

 

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5 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

I don't think you are right with what you are implying. They have made incremental improvements to the boat over a period of a year. That's what happens in development classes. If you have a boat from last year, all you need is a new set of rudders and centerboards. There have been no real advances on aero. 3 of the top 5 used a tramp developed 2 years ago while the 2nd place boat didn't even have a double skin tramp (very old school) and the other top 5 didn't use the new Exploder tramp either. Where is the "hard work on aero" because I would say that there has been little change to aero. There was a couple of boats with a prototype carbon tramp, but i don't believe anybody at the front was using it and am not even sure it is a production item. I also agree with what is said above, that while it looks slick, the traveller and mainsheet are up in the airflow so it isn't actually very aero compared with other Exploders or the F1. 

I personally don't see it as big gear changes, more like improving what was already there. The best bit is that every piece that the front runners used is available to everybody. I was told today that Mischa uses foils that aren't available to anybody else and has been since the F1 came out. I also wonder how much difference the changes really make compared with practice in sailing the boats. I have been told to only upgrade the winglets on my rudders, which will cost me $200. I always consider any development cycle where you can keep the same platform and upgrade components as a low change cycle and with the low costs of Exploder gear, I am happy, because all I care about is whether my boat is outdated and how much is it going to cost to update. Anybody hoping to win a major championships will be buying a new boat anyway. For the rest of us mortals. If you have an AD3, you have a decent platform and even if you want to upgrade fully, it's not going to cost a fortune. The pressure is  now on DNA because they cannot really move beams and boards because of how they build their boats and they don't have competitive boards at the moment. I wouldn't want to have one of those on the way to me at the moment because that is a lot of money on a boat that I would have to wait and hope that they can get competitive again. They have had a great run and achieved amazing things, but they now have a whole new world to conquer. For the last 6 Worlds, they have had the best boats and everybody else has been playing catch up. Now it is their turn to try to do so.

ACS,

  Your information is a bit dated, or more likely skewed by the limited Exploder shipments into Aus, which have the benefit of Stevie managing. The reality is not all AD3's are created equally! The initial shipments into the U.S had the boards at 60cm from the front beam, not the current 40cm position! That is a relatively large change and not an easy one to fix, and yes, it does matter.

I will agree that my aero argument is weak, as you are correct exploder haven't done much in that department since the launch of the AD3, which was in early 2016, i.e <1.5 years ago. The beams are significantly higher aero than previous gen, and they purposefully reduced the hull volume to reduce windage foiling: http://www.a-cat.org/?q=node/720.  I don't think a win on the A15 would have been as easy, even with the new boards and updated sails. Do you?

My opinion is that very likely the flow is pretty well separated by the time it gets to the traveler. I think that and the mainsheet should remain setup for ease of sail handling. Carbon tramp I won't be buying- I have material on order for a new sealed tramp, but that is mostly because my original tramp is long in the tooth and I don't want to put grommets all over it for under tramp rigging systems then turn around and change out the tramp. The carbon doesn't wear well at all and I don't think it buys you much over a nice tramp made from proper low stretch sail cloth.

Stevie used Z15's at Australian nationals. The Z22's are an evolution of these boards that allow for negative angle of attack in the stock Z10 trunks for really breeze on conditions.

Overall you are correct that these are 2 years worth of incremental changes. If you have a late 2016 platform, you mostly have the same kit as the top sailors at worlds. By mostly I mean you probably need a new sail, boards and winglets, to the tune $4k+. Still, that is cheaper than a Moth main wing+rudder wing+wand upgrade, and you're getting a new sail!

Flying upwind will work its way into the class. I think both Exploder and DNA are playing catchup to the Scheurer G7 in the aero and upwind optimized boat design department. If I had my pick, today, it would be a G7 with Exploder Z22's and latest rudder design/winglets.

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5 hours ago, Lars Schrøder d 13 said:

Different takes on the z22s, mostly that they perform equally downwind, better for flying upwind (which only 1-2-4 sailors could get to pay anyway). Also that the z10s should be less sensitive, so easier to sail.

I have no clue on changes to rudder-designs. Aero-stuff looked like the same, I didn’t notice any changes. Sails looked the same, a lot of bryt-sails, they seem to work well for standard-fiberfoam-masts.

I'm not sure the F1s are slower, maybe foils could be more refined, but the DNA-gang misses some quality-training groups, where both the polish and australians are better organised. And hours on the water are the most important part, especially with others fast sailors.

I find it hard to believe that Mischa should have special gear! it wouldnt really make sense, unless its some prototyping. It would make selling of boats hard, if you cant buy the same gear as him + very expensive to do just 2 or 3 sets of boards. so it must be a rumour heard on the harbour.

I agree that the DNA gang are missing out on the quality of training that the Exploder group has going on. I think part of that is they missed the target on price. I for one could never justify buying a F1 over an Exploder AD3. The $10k+ delta isn't worth it. Yes, DNA build a solid boat and the F1 looks like a rocketship, its truly beautiful, but the performance delta hasn't been there to justify the expense.

Right now I'm also wondering how Bruce is doing in Texas. That is a terrible disaster to come home to. I hope his sailing gear was left in Poland!!

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11 hours ago, samc99us said:

The Aussies have the right setup.

What is the aussie setup? I did get the impression that there was all kind of ways in how people are setting up their boats + a lot of different foil designs, and its hard to get the numbers for which angle is neutral on a given foil design. G Redondo might know, but it doenst filter through to the sailors.

The newer boards might be a little better, but from z10s and onwards it seems like understanding how to set up the boat and spend hours on the water is the key. And when you are very comfortable with the boat, you can get some extra by updating. But its of course always fun to buy new toys.

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Lars,

  I'm not at liberty to say. It is up to Stevie to write a guide, which he may well do not that he has a world title in hand. Best I can say is start at 0 on rudder winglet, get the rudder blade as far back as possible in the casting while achieving this (you are looking for a decent amount of weather helm upwind, Hobie 16 level), and adjust the boards to fit.

I agree with you that boat setup and time on the water. I can foil upwind in bigger conditions with the Z10 and Stevies decksweeper, which has a very low CoE. I think the new boards will lower the upwind foiling threshold further and make the boat more attractive to some who have been on the fence about the boat (since it previously didn't foil upwind). We have a pair coming back in the Worlds container so I will post back with some findings and how well they fit.

-Sam

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10 hours ago, samc99us said:

ACS,  Your information is a bit dated, or more likely skewed by the limited Exploder shipments into Aus, which have the benefit of Stevie managing. The reality is not all AD3's are created equally! The initial shipments into the U.S had the boards at 60cm from the front beam, not the current 40cm position! That is a relatively large change and not an easy one to fix, and yes, it does matter.

I don't know when the US boats were delivered, but 50cm back was standard at the last worlds. I do know that the position has moved about, yes, it does make a difference. I guess we have been lucky in Oz. As for the fix, I haven't done it myself but down here, a fair number have with A15's. 2 such boats came 3rd and 4th in the last nationals. I am told it is more of a pain than it is difficult.

Quote

I don't think a win on the A15 would have been as easy, even with the new boards and updated sails. Do you?

I honestly don't know. Converted A15's came 3rd and 4th in our nationals beating some well set up AD3's. My gut feel is that Stevie on an A15 with the right boards, in the right place would probably still have won. For most, it is an irrelevant debate and an A15 is more than good enough. There is a view that overall, the A15 is easier to sail. I know a couple of people who changed between the 2 and said they struggles on the AD3 to start with.

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Stevie used Z15's at Australian nationals.

No he did not. I am 100% confident in that. He used Z11's. To be certain I just made a phone call. The Z15's weren't available until way after.

Quote

Overall you are correct that these are 2 years worth of incremental changes. If you have a late 2016 platform, you mostly have the same kit as the top sailors at worlds. By mostly I mean you probably need a new sail, boards and winglets, to the tune $4k+. Still, that is cheaper than a Moth main wing+rudder wing+wand upgrade, and you're getting a new sail!

Why do you say new sail? I guess it depends on when you last changed your sail, but the decksweepers have been out for nearly 2 years now. Are you saying there are people who have a late 2016 platform but are still using an old rig. It's not something we have seen here in Oz.

Quote

Flying upwind will work its way into the class. I think both Exploder and DNA are playing catchup to the Scheurer G7 in the aero and upwind optimized boat design department. If I had my pick, today, it would be a G7 with Exploder Z22's and latest rudder design/winglets.

I am genuinely interested in why you think the Scheurer G7 is better aero wise than the AD3. To me, there is little real difference if you use the "Australian" set up with under tramp traveller and mainsheet. The Exploder looks to me to be cleaner to the rear beam while the G7 has the bit at the back better. I cannot see a lot of real world difference except for what i believe is a significant price difference. What am I missing?

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54 minutes ago, overlay said:

No mention of Stevies' boomless main?

Are we just ignoring it ?

I mention is above ;)

1st, 4th and 5th were boomless. If you look at individual races, you will see boomless was fast in all conditions and it was down to the sailor. You can say the same thing of the Polish sails with booms. I don't know enough about sailmaking, but maybe the issue is that you need the sail to be cut differently for boomless and only Brewin has done it. I think it was an easy step for Brewin because we have tye Nacra 16 square here in Oz that has used a decksweeper since the dawn of time, so he was used to that type of sail. 

What i do know is that booms are seen as contributing to mast breakage and if you check out pictures of Scott Anderson of Fiberfoam at the worlds, he attached his boom to the mast very low down, probably to help in this regard. I believe that Fiberfoam now do an updated mast that has been reinforced in order to take the loads, so not only do you need a boom but ideally you want a new mast as well.

Is boomless a winning strategy? I doubt it but I love the idea that you don't have to spend the money on a boom, the boat is lighter and you cannot get hit round the head with it when you do something stupid.

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13 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

I don't know when the US boats were delivered, but 50cm back was standard at the last worlds. I do know that the position has moved about, yes, it does make a difference. I guess we have been lucky in Oz. As for the fix, I haven't done it myself but down here, a fair number have with A15's. 2 such boats came 3rd and 4th in the last nationals. I am told it is more of a pain than it is difficult.

I honestly don't know. Converted A15's came 3rd and 4th in our nationals beating some well set up AD3's. My gut feel is that Stevie on an A15 with the right boards, in the right place would probably still have won. For most, it is an irrelevant debate and an A15 is more than good enough. There is a view that overall, the A15 is easier to sail. I know a couple of people who changed between the 2 and said they struggles on the AD3 to start with.

No he did not. I am 100% confident in that. He used Z11's. To be certain I just made a phone call. The Z15's weren't available until way after.

Why do you say new sail? I guess it depends on when you last changed your sail, but the decksweepers have been out for nearly 2 years now. Are you saying there are people who have a late 2016 platform but are still using an old rig. It's not something we have seen here in Oz.

I am genuinely interested in why you think the Scheurer G7 is better aero wise than the AD3. To me, there is little real difference if you use the "Australian" set up with under tramp traveller and mainsheet. The Exploder looks to me to be cleaner to the rear beam while the G7 has the bit at the back better. I cannot see a lot of real world difference except for what i believe is a significant price difference. What am I missing?

ACS, I buy all that on the A15's vs. AD3's. Moving the trunks is a right pain in the arse, my local boat builder will do his and that's about it (after he did mine and fixed a lower bearing on a DNA).

Copy on the Z11's-your information is better in that regard than mine.

On the new sail, Stevie has spent a lot of time developing his decksweeper. It is noticeably faster than what we have been running before (also a decksweeper, late 2016) in any real foiling condition. That is why I say new sail. The beauty of all this so far is the short rig hasn't proven to be the end all be all, so the current rigs will likely stay and remain competitive for some time yet! The other beauty in all this, from my perspective, is an A-cat main costs the same as a F18 main, and a pair of Exploder Z22's+rudder winglets will set you back less than a jib and spinnaker for an F18 from some vendors. So really the cost delta between the two to stay competitive is small. I am in a fortunate position that I get the hand me downs from my training partner, which is still <1 year old equipment, in exchange for keeping the F18 in top shape and having a very skilled driver for that platform, and we have a pair of foiling A-cats to train on regularly. 

On the G7, the rear tramp does look a bit cleaner, I suspect that delta is small. The big change is the forward beam position. This to me makes a lot of sense, and is very in line with Arno's flying carpet thinking. They also have an adjustable mast base to play with that location some, which I bet comes in handy. Considering their light air performance and some of their breeze performance to date, the boat is clearly quick and I think a real weapon if it had the sailing skills and some of the foiling development that the Exploder camp have done. Its also great IMO that a third builder is in the game with a competitive platform!!

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The first USA D3's have 50 cm boards, not 60.  One very qualified person sailed one just like those D3s at the Worlds and was going very well in the breeze and reported hanging with the new boats downwind one time when we talked there.

I am not saying this to diminish the quality of the new boats and the Z22s as they are very, very good, but just to provide some accurate data, context, and perspective.  

Those Z22s just don't fall off the foils and feel slick and low drag.  You can fly very high and just sit there without falling off the foils.  It's impressive.  They also feel OK downwind when sailing flat with all that foiling gear causing drag.  

A few people were trying differential rudders that can give downforce on the windward side upwind.  Makes a ton of sense to me and something I am very keen to try.     It will take some development to make something really easy to use there and is pretty exciting in concept to me.  

Z22: https://goo.gl/photos/E6o27x1egoTfJoRC6

https://goo.gl/photos/GoqQ5zU9cQjyJfyB6

I'm not sure why Scott Anderson had such a strange boom set up.  He sailed a boomless sail with a boom on what looked to be a standard gooseneck.  I didn't ask him but suspected it was like a fancy bartender who makes incredible cocktails all night only to open a budweiser when he gets home.  Can't be bothered I'd guess.  

The Fiberfoam 15 masts are reportedly about 1.5 Kgs heavier and are beefed up since so many people are running heavy downhaul downwind from what I've heard.  i doubt that is all in the gooseneck area but I don't have any specific knowledge. 

 

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2 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

I'm not sure why Scott Anderson had such a strange boom set up.  He sailed a boomless sail with a boom on what looked to be a standard gooseneck.  I didn't ask him but suspected it was like a fancy bartender who makes incredible cocktails all night only to open a budweiser when he gets home.  Can't be bothered I'd guess.  

The Fiberfoam 15 masts are reportedly about 1.5 Kgs heavier and are beefed up since so many people are running heavy downhaul downwind from what I've heard.  i doubt that is all in the gooseneck area but I don't have any specific knowledge. 

 

The information I have from Scott certainly doesn't suggest a 1.5kgs weight difference between the 14 and 15. He said that the only difference was extra reinforcement low down to take the boom loads, because there had been breakages with boomed decksweepers that were attributable to the boom including his own at the nationals. It is my understanding that the extra reinforcement doesn't change the bend numbers of the mast and I think 1.5 kgs extra across the whole mast would dramatically change those numbers. I also think his low gooseneck position serves 2 purposes. Clearly the lower you get the attachment point, the stronger the mast is. The other thing is potentially to do with controlling fullness. In the past with a regular rig, the angle of the boom meant that as you lulled the sheet in, not only did you apply leach tension but you also flattened the sail. It has surprised me that the wishbone boom position means that as you pull on the mainsheet, the bottom actually gets fuller. If you get the angle correct, pulling the mainsheet should not change the fullness of the sail which can then be controlled by the outhaul. Some might even want to sail to flatten low down when pulling the mainsheet, but I note that both Mischa and Stevie seem to keep the bottom fuller than you would expect as the wind gets up.

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3 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

The first USA D3's have 50 cm boards, not 60.  One very qualified person sailed one just like those D3s at the Worlds and was going very well in the breeze and reported hanging with the new boats downwind one time when we talked there.

I cannot see this as a big factor either. Bundy sailed the Australian Nationals with boards at 500mm while Stevie was at 400mm. I was too far away to be sure, but i do not think there was a noticeable difference in speed and in at least one race, Bundy seemed to have the legs on Stevie.

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On 26/08/2017 at 11:35 AM, manicsh said:

+1!  :rolleyes:  An amazing victory to inspire us all.  Congrats Stevie!!

Yeah! Time to get me a hair cut.

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16 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

I cannot see this as a big factor either. Bundy sailed the Australian Nationals with boards at 500mm while Stevie was at 400mm. I was too far away to be sure, but i do not think there was a noticeable difference in speed and in at least one race, Bundy seemed to have the legs on Stevie.

That is probably likely. I suspect there is a small delta that top sailors can tell. There may be something else different between the boats in question, very likely the rudders and/or winglets which matter a lot.

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Three pages of in depth analysis of a modern A Class and not one word about the chicks. You blokes must have been walking around Sopot with your eyes shut.

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6 hours ago, MelbourneA31 said:

Three pages of in depth analysis of a modern A Class and not one word about the chicks. You blokes must have been walking around Sopot with your eyes shut.

Pics or it didn't happen!

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On 26/09/2017 at 11:13 AM, sail(plane) said:

Pics or it didn't happen!

Like this maybe?

IMG_4619-2.jpg

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A couple of questions from a long time lurker sailing a shorter boat currently..

I'm going to enter the class after the Aus worlds  (can't get leave for the worlds)

Browsing some A's for sale I noticed the Paradox has a listing with foils for $8k platform only - am I to assume the platform is stiff & with new foils & rig it would be the best sub $20k option?

Simons boat is listed at $29k any guesses on a chartered exploder will cost after the Aus worlds?

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6 hours ago, mitchellsailor said:

A couple of questions from a long time lurker sailing a shorter boat currently..

I'm going to enter the class after the Aus worlds  (can't get leave for the worlds)

Browsing some A's for sale I noticed the Paradox has a listing with foils for $8k platform only - am I to assume the platform is stiff & with new foils & rig it would be the best sub $20k option?

Simons boat is listed at $29k any guesses on a chartered exploder will cost after the Aus worlds?

If you want a classic avoid the Paradox. If you want a foiler avoid the Paradox. 

Good classics are C board Exploder and DNA. Good foilers AD3 and F1. 

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This would probably be a good foiler with near latest boards: http://www.a-cat.org.au/classifieds/show-ads/?id=486

They also look like they are in the newest position.

I think this is a steal: http://www.a-cat.org.au/classifieds/show-ads/?id=487

The narrow transoms probably hold it back but the mast alone is worth half the asking price or more, so you could get a year of training in now, sell the platform and buy a foiling platform only as you'll have a competitive rig (same mast as SimonN is selling with his boat). This would also be a good intro to trapping downwind which is a required foiling skill.

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22 hours ago, mitchellsailor said:

A couple of questions from a long time lurker sailing a shorter boat currently..

I'm going to enter the class after the Aus worlds  (can't get leave for the worlds)

Browsing some A's for sale I noticed the Paradox has a listing with foils for $8k platform only - am I to assume the platform is stiff & with new foils & rig it would be the best sub $20k option?

Simons boat is listed at $29k any guesses on a chartered exploder will cost after the Aus worlds?

The Paradox is what is known as a POS. The hull shape is wrong with too little rocker, ask past owners about the build quality and they were very heavy. Add the latest foils to it, which are very heavy in their own right and you have a monster weight boat. As for a sub $20k option, it isn't. A rig is the best part of $9k and foils will set you back $4k. You would also need to move the centreboard position, which professionally done is another $3-4k. DIY you are over $20k and you still haven't got an aero tramp, you are very over weight and have a bad hull shape.

I would guess that an ex charter boat, if any are available, would be the best part of $34,000 complete at today's cost (basically $2k discount to new) but I wonder how many charter boats Exploder will have available. I doubt there will be many because of the cost of shipping charter boats.

I suspect that it will be possible to pick up decent boats after the worlds for less than that as people who joined the class for a local worlds get out. Usually, you expect to pay $4-6k less for a 1 year old boat depending on gear and how well set up it is. You might get a decent AD3 for $30k then.

We seem to have a problem in Australia at the moment of not enough s/h foiling boats for the demand at all price ranges. There are currently 2 for sale and I am not sure how many more are likely to come onto the market. It would only be somebody leaving the class because I hear that you cannot get a new Exploder before the end of the season here (Easter) and it would be a strange time to leave the class at the beginning of the season (both Stu and Simon have new boats coming). It's a bit of a shame because it will limit those coming into the class for the worlds.

10 hours ago, samc99us said:

I think this is a steal: http://www.a-cat.org.au/classifieds/show-ads/?id=487

The narrow transoms probably hold it back but the mast alone is worth half the asking price or more, so you could get a year of training in now, sell the platform and buy a foiling platform only as you'll have a competitive rig (same mast as SimonN is selling with his boat). This would also be a good intro to trapping downwind which is a required foiling skill.

If the trailer is good, it is worth $2k. The mast is probably worth $4k. Saaberg's were very sought after but the top riders in Australia are now supported by Fiberfoam so you don't see them at the front of the fleet so much. I wouldn't hesitate to put one on my boat. Overall, this boat is a great buy. Keep it for a year and sell off the platform for a few thousand while transferring the trailer and mast onto a newer foiling platform and you will be well ahead financially.

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Thanks for the info gents, the Flyer is sold funnily enough. Drooling over A class's at McCrae cat champs will have to suffice for now!

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