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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
GTom

GRP Classic around 28-33'?

47 posts in this topic

I am doing my research round on a classic for the family (4) that on occasion can also be delivered across oceans by a smaller crew.

Key points:

  • Budget: <40k€ incl refit. Buying in Europe, 
  • Use: 5-6 people for daysailing, crew of 2-3 for long passages (e.g. Atlantic circle)
  • Dimensions: the beam should be <9.8'/3m, weight <5t to maintain some sort of land-transportability. Draft <5.5'
  • So far I considered: Albin Ballad (a little small but sturdy boat), Halberg Rassy 31, Artekno H-35 (bit too long considering its berth capacity), Westerly Longbow 31 (heavy - I don't know, how much a transport guy would ask for 5.5t)

Any other suggestions? The Ballad I researched the most seems really cheap but space is quite limited inside...

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Hard to find in Europe but a Yankee 30 would meet most of your requirements. A Tartan 30 gives you a bit more room but beam is 10'. Both are very sturdy and safe, but I would consider building up the bridge deck and adding scupper capacity for offshore work.

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May be it's a bit big (especially wide and heavy) but what about the Gladiateur from Wauquiez? These were really solidly built and showing a very good behaviour at sea.

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56 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

May be it's a bit big (especially wide and heavy) but what about the Gladiateur from Wauquiez? These were really solidly built and showing a very good behaviour at sea.

Yes, it is unfortunately too wide. I don't want to dismiss land-transportability, which becomes extremely complicated beyond 3m width. Shallow draft is also a significant virtue in several cruising grounds I am considering (North Sea at first, inland waterways also possible).

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Added Contessa 32 to the list. Kind of weird pricing: some are offered at ~60k€, some for 25. I know, a lot does/doesn't happen in 40 years...

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In order of loveliness:

 

Twister 28

OE 32 (fat bottom' girl, though)

Nicholson 32

Rustler 31 

Hallberg Rassys 29 to 312, all of them, Monsun as well

Victoire 933

Centurion 32

Allegro 30

 

long time nothing

 

Albin Ballad

Arpège

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26 minutes ago, GTom said:

Added Contessa 32 to the list. Kind of weird pricing: some are offered at ~60k€, some for 25. I know, a lot does/doesn't happen in 40 years...

As I understand it they are still being (hand) built to order and to pretty high specifications - hence the big differences in prices

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24 minutes ago, Matagi said:

In order of loveliness:

Twister 28
OE 32 (fat bottom' girl, though)
Nicholson 32
Rustler 31 
Hallberg Rassys 29 to 312, all of them, Monsun as well
Victoire 933
Centurion 32
Allegro 30

long time nothing

Albin Ballad
Arpège

Thanks for the list! The Monsun seems really interesting. Quickly run Tom Dove's calculator (I know, nowadays we have STIX and other magic numbers - but AFAIK no one bothered to assess them for older boats), impressive.

And as it seems, it is a white water cruiser:

 

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1 hour ago, GTom said:

Added Contessa 32 to the list. Kind of weird pricing: some are offered at ~60k€, some for 25. I know, a lot does/doesn't happen in 40 years...

Contessas get a lot of their inflated resale value from name recognition & Fastnet mystique; some sellers factor that in, while others just rate it as a 32' boat.  Nice boats, mind you.

Ballad is small inside. Probably a good choice for coastal, the North Sea, or tha Baltic because it lives for battened-down upwind sailing in snotty conditions.  Not the best boat for a tradewinds crossing, tho, unless you spend a lot of time improving airflow. DAMHIKT.

I rather like the Naijad and Omega lines, and here's a Scanmar 33 at a decent price. Monsun here. On the performance side, with good build quality, the X-99 (nice big cockpit for social sailing.) 

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I'll stick to encapsulated keel+protected rudder styles, just for the peace of mind. That danish Monsun looks very well kept!

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GTom, it seems to me that your 3 main goals — family cruising, ocean passages, and land transportability — intersect to create a straitjacket.

Modern boats are beamy, so you are forced to go shorter stay under 3m beam.

Older boats are heavy, so you are forced to go shorter stay under 5 tonnes.

So you exclude many fine boats such as the Nicholson 31, Nicholson 32, Gladiateur 33, Scanmar 33, Westerly Fulmar, Dufour Arpege, Hallberg-Rassy 312.  There's still a few nice boats which fit your criteria such as Centurion 32 & Contessa 32, but they are late 60s designs way less suited to family use than for example Scanmar or Fulmar or 312.  The older boats have huge headsails, cramped cockpit, and accommodation squeezed by narrow beam and short waterline.  Fine for a solo sailor or even a couple, but bad news or a family.

Is this road transport thing really important?   It seems to me to be undermining the boat's core purpose.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Is this road transport thing really important?   It seems to me to be undermining the boat's core purpose.

+1

I think that he would need something like an aphrodite 101 but less spartian. I can't think of a production boat that fits this description. There is the super challenger designed by Mauric (http://www.bateautheque.com/bateau/?super-challenger) but it was built in plywood and a bit small for this program.

Maraska%2014%205.jpg

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Actually, thinking more about it, after the super challenger, there was the "super arlequin" which was GRP and sightly modified : http://super.arlequin.monsite-orange.fr/index.html

It is 2.92m wide, 9.2m long with a draft of 1.4 or 1.7m (2 versions) and weights 2.5t : http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/fiche-technique/ship_id=26476/

These boats (super Arlequin and super challenger) have done stuff like fastnet races and had a reputation of being very safe. It is up to you if you can live with the spartian interior, it will certainly be much slower than a first class 10 but also very safe and easy to sail.

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

GTom, it seems to me that your 3 main goals — family cruising, ocean passages, and land transportability — intersect to create a straitjacket.

I agree. (The budget should be added as an additional constraint.)  People with wish lists like this go to a designer for a custom boat. So where do you stretch the limits? I think the most likely place is on land transit. A boat that's more challenging to move on land makes the other desires, the real desires, easier to meet. And, to some extent, it's just a matter of getting a bigger truck and someone to load/drive/unload it. Besides, blue water capability can take the place of land transit if you're not going intercontinental.

In the US market, the problem is more difficult because our comparatively benign sailing conditions plus our geography means most of our boats are built for coastal cruising. In addition the crash in the boat business in the late 1980s means most boats of likely designs are 25+ years old, problematic for ambitious cruises. In recent years, J-boats, Hunter, Beneteau, and Catalina have dominated the US market, so the choice is limited. 

The answer probably lies in the France or the Netherlands.  Or even Belgium:

etap-28i-8299811012225065505355695252456

 

 ETAP 28I

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There is a lot to like about ETAPs.  Safe, solid, nicely-insulated, and well thought-out.  The looks don't appeal to me, but hey -- you can't see you own boat when sailing.

However, ETAPs aren't narrow boats, so the beam requirement means a sub-30' boat :(

To my mind, by far the best boat which fits the  land-transportability criteria is the Artekno H-35. Easily handled, and it will have a lovely gentle motion.

The OP says the H-35 is " too long considering its berth capacity", but why is length a problem?  If you think of it as a 3500 kg boat (which it is), then it does fine

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I didn't know about this H35. It looks quite nice and more suited to the OP request than what I was offering. 

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On 8/10/2017 at 0:05 PM, GTom said:

I am doing my research round on a classic for the family (4) that on occasion can also be delivered across oceans by a smaller crew.

Key points:

  • Budget: <40k€ incl refit. Buying in Europe, 
  • Use: 5-6 people for daysailing, crew of 2-3 for long passages (e.g. Atlantic circle)
  • Dimensions: the beam should be <9.8'/3m, weight <5t to maintain some sort of land-transportability. Draft <5.5'
  • So far I considered: Albin Ballad (a little small but sturdy boat), Halberg Rassy 31, Artekno H-35 (bit too long considering its berth capacity), Westerly Longbow 31 (heavy - I don't know, how much a transport guy would ask for 5.5t)

Any other suggestions? The Ballad I researched the most seems really cheap but space is quite limited inside...

Would a C&C Mega work for you? Not sure I would want to cross the Atlantic in one and tankage would be an issue but it checks all the other boxes. The drop keel makes it much easier to ship by road. Some were built in Europe but not sure how many. Price would be well within your budget allowing for significant upgrades.

Mega 30 One-Design drawing on sailboatdata.com

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8 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Would a C&C Mega work for you? Not sure I would want to cross the Atlantic in one and tankage would be an issue but it checks all the other boxes.

Interesting boat, Bristol, which in theory should be loadsa fun to sail.

But at 4500 lbs displacement (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=732) it couldn't take the payload needed for the OP's intended usage of family cruising. Plus it doesn't even have a galley.  Sink, but no stove.

 

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1 minute ago, TwoLegged said:

Interesting boat, Bristol, which in theory should be loadsa fun to sail.

But at 4500 lbs displacement (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=732) it couldn't take the payload needed for the OP's intended usage of family cruising. Plus it doesn't even have a galley.  Sink, but no stove.

 

I don't think the boat he wants exists so it becomes a matter of getting something close that can be modified to meet the other needs. The Mega was designed to be road shipped, so the question is how critical is that feature. Almost by definition such a boat is going to be quite light. I can imagine modifying the boat to have a minimal galley but load carrying is going to be a problem that can't be easily fixed.

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A stove can be added without too much trouble. Friends of ours cruised on their Mega every summer,  for years. . You could also check out Good Old Boat magazine Issue 100, I think where there is a good article on a "cruisified"  Mega

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Another two interesting pieces are the Rival 32 and 34. A full ton heavier though than the Monsun, which adds considerably to the oldschool motion comfort ratio. However added weight without added canvas AFAIK means slower boat. I am also missing an aft berth - which the Monsun has.

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1 hour ago, GTom said:

Another two interesting pieces are the Rival 32 and 34. A full ton heavier though than the Monsun, which adds considerably to the oldschool motion comfort ratio. However added weight without added canvas AFAIK means slower boat. I am also missing an aft berth - which the Monsun has.

Huh?

By "aft berth" do you mean quarter berth?  I have never seen a Rival 32 or 34 without one.

But both Rival 32 & Rival 34 have designed displacement over 11,500lb, so they must be well over 12,000lb with even some gear on board.  That's about 6 tones.

I thought you had set a 5 ton weight limit?

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And then their was this one from some Robert Perry or so...

124-Far_Harbour_39_368_0.jpg?itok=1NV17b

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I don't think you will get a queue of delivery skippers for the transatlantics. Old lightweight 30 ft boats will also be difficult to insure for transatlantics.

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On 14/08/2017 at 10:24 AM, TwoLegged said:

Huh?

By "aft berth" do you mean quarter berth?  I have never seen a Rival 32 or 34 without one.

But both Rival 32 & Rival 34 have designed displacement over 11,500lb, so they must be well over 12,000lb with even some gear on board.  That's about 6 tones.

I thought you had set a 5 ton weight limit?

Right, a quarterberth & thx for the info, it wasn't clear from the layouts I found on sailbiatdata.com.

Yeah, 5 ton would make a sensible weight limit unless there is a huge gain on that added ton. Also, the Monsun has almost double fuel and water tank capacity.

On 14/08/2017 at 7:52 PM, Matagi said:

And then their was this one from some Robert Perry or so...

Thx!

On 14/08/2017 at 11:12 PM, TQA said:

I don't think you will get a queue of delivery skippers for the transatlantics. Old lightweight 30 ft boats will also be difficult to insure for transatlantics.

Skipper would be me, only need a deck hand.

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2 hours ago, GTom said:

Skipper would be me, only need a deck hand.

For a transat, either you are going to be sailing like a solo sailor, with sleep in ten-minute snatches, or the other person needs to be a fully-skilled watch-keeper. 

 

2 hours ago, GTom said:

Yeah, 5 ton would make a sensible weight limit unless there is a huge gain on that added ton. Also, the Monsun has almost double fuel and water tank capacity.

If 5 tonnes is just a target rather than a hard limit, that alters the picture significantly and gives you a much bigger choice of heavy narrow boats.

But what's this road transport thing all about?

Unless you are planning on hauling the boat all around Europe like a nomadic racing dinghy chasing regattas across the continent, the 3m limit (actually 2.9m in the UK) is a trivial issue. In England, for example, it requires only pre-notification to police; in Ireland it requires only a permit on certain designated roads.

Wide loads are much more restricted in Germany, and also in France and Spain ... but I really can't see how it makes economic sense to haul a 5ton boat around Europe by road. By the time you have hauled the boat at one end, done the huge prep needed or safety at 80kmh, and reversed the process at the other end, you will already have gobbled up a sizeable chunk of the cost of hiring a delivery skipper ... and then you have the haulier's fees, which will be non-trivial.

It makes no sense to me.  So what sort of road transport do you have in mind?

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In France, after 3 m, you need a special escort and it becomes a PITA, whereas sub 3m is much easier. I am still with you on the road transport being onerous in terms of limitations. 

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Transporting a keel boat heavier than two point something tons means that you need a professional transport company (or your own truck and the right driver's license ).

This means that any journey longer than a few kilometers costs a lot of money. Like 5000 to 8000 Euros from the baltic sea to the med one way for example. Makes no economic sense if the boat is "only" 40.000 Euros. 

In think extensive trailering and comfortable atlantic circle for four are mutually exclusive for the proposed budget. 

Paul 

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On 18/08/2017 at 9:23 PM, toolbar said:

Transporting a keel boat heavier than two point something tons means that you need a professional transport company (or your own truck and the right driver's license ).

This means that any journey longer than a few kilometers costs a lot of money. Like 5000 to 8000 Euros from the baltic sea to the med one way for example. Makes no economic sense if the boat is "only" 40.000 Euros. 

In think extensive trailering and comfortable atlantic circle for four are mutually exclusive for the proposed budget. 

Paul 

Right, the inland waterways are also a possibility with a shallow draft boat. Trailering seemed to be a useful idea at first but adding up all the costs (=new SUV, trailer, gasoline) and hassle I tend to abandon the idea and simply look for seaworthy shallow draft boats in the 29-33' range.

 

Added Malø 40H to my research.

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It is often faster to sail Offshore than use the canal system. With a decent boat you can sail from LA Coruña to Belgium in a week, going through the canals will take for ever. Even canal du midi takes about the same time as sailing around the Iberian peninsula in one go. 

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1 hour ago, GTom said:

Right, the inland waterways are also a possibility with a shallow draft boat. Trailering seemed to be a useful idea at first but adding up all the costs (=new SUV, trailer, gasoline) and hassle I tend to abandon the idea and simply look for seaworthy shallow draft boats in the 29-33' range.

GTom, you seem to have some odd trains of thought.

You want a seaworthy boat, but then you cripple it by insisting on shallow draft.  There is a reason why offshore boats have deep draft, and if you insist on compromising your offshore boat that way, you will have a hard time making to windward at sea.

It seems to me that you are in danger of emulating what happens when the US armed services set out to create an aircraft which meets all requirements of all the services: a plane which is serves as a dog-fighter, a ground-attack plane, a long-range bomber, an interceptor and a reconnaissance platform.  The result of this quest for an egg-laying, milk-giving, wool-bearing animal whose flesh consists of both pork and beef  is always a massively-over-budget, years late, monstrosity which is well-below average in all its roles. (Their latest money-sink is the F-35 Lightning II).

If you want a canal boat, then get a canal boat.

If you want a canal trailer-sailer, then get a trailer-sailer.

If you want a transatlantic boat, get a transatlantic boat.

If you want a European coastal cruiser, get a European coastal cruiser.

But don't try to combine them in one Swiss Army knife, 'cos boats are not Swiss Army knives. 

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

 

But don't try to combine them in one Swiss Army knife, 'cos boats are not Swiss Army knives. 

Wild Oats begs to differ:

oat.jpg

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5 minutes ago, Grey Dawn said:

 

1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

But don't try to combine them in one Swiss Army knife, 'cos boats are not Swiss Army knives. 

Wild Oats begs to differ:

oat.jpg

 

Haha!

But you are posting fake news ;)

That thing has no corkscrew and no tweezers.  So it's not a real Swiss Army knife, just a cheap Chinese knock-off

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9 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

GTom, you seem to have some odd trains of thought.

You want a seaworthy boat, but then you cripple it by insisting on shallow draft.  There is a reason why offshore boats have deep draft, and if you insist on compromising your offshore boat that way, you will have a hard time making to windward at sea.

It seems to me that you are in danger of emulating what happens when the US armed services set out to create an aircraft which meets all requirements of all the services: a plane which is serves as a dog-fighter, a ground-attack plane, a long-range bomber, an interceptor and a reconnaissance platform.  The result of this quest for an egg-laying, milk-giving, wool-bearing animal whose flesh consists of both pork and beef  is always a massively-over-budget, years late, monstrosity which is well-below average in all its roles. (Their latest money-sink is the F-35 Lightning II).

If you want a canal boat, then get a canal boat.

If you want a canal trailer-sailer, then get a trailer-sailer.

If you want a transatlantic boat, get a transatlantic boat.

If you want a European coastal cruiser, get a European coastal cruiser.

But don't try to combine them in one Swiss Army knife, 'cos boats are not Swiss Army knives. 

Have you read topic title? Would you deem a Contessa 32 and dozens of similar designs unseaworthy?

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9 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Haha!

But you are posting fake news ;)

That thing has no corkscrew and no tweezers.  So it's not a real Swiss Army knife, just a cheap Chinese knock-off

Weren't cheap, and designed to do one ting only!

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1 hour ago, GTom said:
11 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

GTom, you seem to have some odd trains of thought.

You want a seaworthy boat, but then you cripple it by insisting on shallow draft.  There is a reason why offshore boats have deep draft, and if you insist on compromising your offshore boat that way, you will have a hard time making to windward at sea.

It seems to me that you are in danger of emulating what happens when the US armed services set out to create an aircraft which meets all requirements of all the services: a plane which is serves as a dog-fighter, a ground-attack plane, a long-range bomber, an interceptor and a reconnaissance platform.  The result of this quest for an egg-laying, milk-giving, wool-bearing animal whose flesh consists of both pork and beef  is always a massively-over-budget, years late, monstrosity which is well-below average in all its roles. (Their latest money-sink is the F-35 Lightning II).

If you want a canal boat, then get a canal boat.

If you want a canal trailer-sailer, then get a trailer-sailer.

If you want a transatlantic boat, get a transatlantic boat.

If you want a European coastal cruiser, get a European coastal cruiser.

But don't try to combine them in one Swiss Army knife, 'cos boats are not Swiss Army knives. 

Have you read topic title? Would you deem a Contessa 32 and dozens of similar designs unseaworthy?

A Contessa 32 has a 5.5 foot draft - I'd consider that fairly deep for a boat with a 24 foot waterline length.

On the other hand I don't think that shallow draft is a disqualification on seaworthyness - what really matters is the righting moment / AVS and the ability to sail off a lee shore.  Some shallow draft boats can do that better than some deep draft boats.

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5.5 feet draft is probably too much for canal du midi. The official limit is 1.6m and in reality it is less in places unless you are willing to plow mud with your keel. 

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49 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

5.5 feet draft is probably too much for canal du midi. The official limit is 1.6m and in reality it is less in places unless you are willing to plow mud with your keel. 

Right. Rival 32? Westerly longbow?

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4 hours ago, Fleetwood said:

Weren't cheap, and designed to do one ting only!

You mean they spent loadsamoney and still got no tweezers? ;)

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4 hours ago, GTom said:

Right. Rival 32? Westerly longbow?

Probably would work for the canal du midi.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

Probably would work for the canal du midi.

That was my line of thinking too. I am also considering the eastern route once along the Danube: http://www.sy-tongji.de/2010/2010.html (sry, german). Definitely not something I'd do every year but seems to be an interesting option to deliver a boat from the Baltic to the Eastern Med.

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2 minutes ago, GTom said:

That was my line of thinking too. I am also considering the eastern route once along the Danube: http://www.sy-tongji.de/2010/2010.html (sry, german). Definitely not something I'd do every year but seems to be an interesting option to deliver a boat from the Baltic to the Med.

If you fancy traveling across Europe through the canals do it, nevertheless it isn't a very efficient way of moving around a boat. For instance you can bring a 30 something feet boat from Marseille to Normandy in 3 weeks sailing around Spain and Portugal, going through the canal system it will be more like 2 months with all the locks and because you have to stop at night.

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6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

You mean they spent loadsamoney and still got no tweezers? ;)

Maybe no tweezers, but it's Wild Oats. I'm sure there is a corkscrew in there somewhere.

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On 10/08/2017 at 4:38 PM, Matagi said:

In order of loveliness:

 

Twister 28

OE 32 (fat bottom' girl, though)

Nicholson 32

Rustler 31 

Hallberg Rassys 29 to 312, all of them, Monsun as well

Victoire 933

Centurion 32

Allegro 30

 

long time nothing

 

Albin Ballad

Arpège

^^^this

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On 8/21/2017 at 4:02 PM, TwoLegged said:

Haha!

But you are posting fake news ;)

That thing has no corkscrew and no tweezers.  So it's not a real Swiss Army knife, just a cheap Chinese knock-off

A Pleatherman.

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