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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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I am doing my research round on a classic for the family (4) that on occasion can also be delivered across oceans by a smaller crew.

Key points:

  • Budget: <40k€ incl refit. Buying in Europe, 
  • Use: 5-6 people for daysailing, crew of 2-3 for long passages (e.g. Atlantic circle)
  • Dimensions: the beam should be <9.8'/3m, weight <5t to maintain some sort of land-transportability. Draft <5.5'
  • So far I considered: Albin Ballad (a little small but sturdy boat), Halberg Rassy 31, Artekno H-35 (bit too long considering its berth capacity), Westerly Longbow 31 (heavy - I don't know, how much a transport guy would ask for 5.5t)

Any other suggestions? The Ballad I researched the most seems really cheap but space is quite limited inside...

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Hard to find in Europe but a Yankee 30 would meet most of your requirements. A Tartan 30 gives you a bit more room but beam is 10'. Both are very sturdy and safe, but I would consider building up the bridge deck and adding scupper capacity for offshore work.

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May be it's a bit big (especially wide and heavy) but what about the Gladiateur from Wauquiez? These were really solidly built and showing a very good behaviour at sea.

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56 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

May be it's a bit big (especially wide and heavy) but what about the Gladiateur from Wauquiez? These were really solidly built and showing a very good behaviour at sea.

Yes, it is unfortunately too wide. I don't want to dismiss land-transportability, which becomes extremely complicated beyond 3m width. Shallow draft is also a significant virtue in several cruising grounds I am considering (North Sea at first, inland waterways also possible).

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Added Contessa 32 to the list. Kind of weird pricing: some are offered at ~60k€, some for 25. I know, a lot does/doesn't happen in 40 years...

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In order of loveliness:

 

Twister 28

OE 32 (fat bottom' girl, though)

Nicholson 32

Rustler 31 

Hallberg Rassys 29 to 312, all of them, Monsun as well

Victoire 933

Centurion 32

Allegro 30

 

long time nothing

 

Albin Ballad

Arpège

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26 minutes ago, GTom said:

Added Contessa 32 to the list. Kind of weird pricing: some are offered at ~60k€, some for 25. I know, a lot does/doesn't happen in 40 years...

As I understand it they are still being (hand) built to order and to pretty high specifications - hence the big differences in prices

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24 minutes ago, Matagi said:

In order of loveliness:

Twister 28
OE 32 (fat bottom' girl, though)
Nicholson 32
Rustler 31 
Hallberg Rassys 29 to 312, all of them, Monsun as well
Victoire 933
Centurion 32
Allegro 30

long time nothing

Albin Ballad
Arpège

Thanks for the list! The Monsun seems really interesting. Quickly run Tom Dove's calculator (I know, nowadays we have STIX and other magic numbers - but AFAIK no one bothered to assess them for older boats), impressive.

And as it seems, it is a white water cruiser:

 

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1 hour ago, GTom said:

Added Contessa 32 to the list. Kind of weird pricing: some are offered at ~60k€, some for 25. I know, a lot does/doesn't happen in 40 years...

Contessas get a lot of their inflated resale value from name recognition & Fastnet mystique; some sellers factor that in, while others just rate it as a 32' boat.  Nice boats, mind you.

Ballad is small inside. Probably a good choice for coastal, the North Sea, or tha Baltic because it lives for battened-down upwind sailing in snotty conditions.  Not the best boat for a tradewinds crossing, tho, unless you spend a lot of time improving airflow. DAMHIKT.

I rather like the Naijad and Omega lines, and here's a Scanmar 33 at a decent price. Monsun here. On the performance side, with good build quality, the X-99 (nice big cockpit for social sailing.) 

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I'll stick to encapsulated keel+protected rudder styles, just for the peace of mind. That danish Monsun looks very well kept!

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GTom, it seems to me that your 3 main goals — family cruising, ocean passages, and land transportability — intersect to create a straitjacket.

Modern boats are beamy, so you are forced to go shorter stay under 3m beam.

Older boats are heavy, so you are forced to go shorter stay under 5 tonnes.

So you exclude many fine boats such as the Nicholson 31, Nicholson 32, Gladiateur 33, Scanmar 33, Westerly Fulmar, Dufour Arpege, Hallberg-Rassy 312.  There's still a few nice boats which fit your criteria such as Centurion 32 & Contessa 32, but they are late 60s designs way less suited to family use than for example Scanmar or Fulmar or 312.  The older boats have huge headsails, cramped cockpit, and accommodation squeezed by narrow beam and short waterline.  Fine for a solo sailor or even a couple, but bad news or a family.

Is this road transport thing really important?   It seems to me to be undermining the boat's core purpose.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Is this road transport thing really important?   It seems to me to be undermining the boat's core purpose.

+1

I think that he would need something like an aphrodite 101 but less spartian. I can't think of a production boat that fits this description. There is the super challenger designed by Mauric (http://www.bateautheque.com/bateau/?super-challenger) but it was built in plywood and a bit small for this program.

Maraska%2014%205.jpg

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Actually, thinking more about it, after the super challenger, there was the "super arlequin" which was GRP and sightly modified : http://super.arlequin.monsite-orange.fr/index.html

It is 2.92m wide, 9.2m long with a draft of 1.4 or 1.7m (2 versions) and weights 2.5t : http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/fiche-technique/ship_id=26476/

These boats (super Arlequin and super challenger) have done stuff like fastnet races and had a reputation of being very safe. It is up to you if you can live with the spartian interior, it will certainly be much slower than a first class 10 but also very safe and easy to sail.

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

GTom, it seems to me that your 3 main goals — family cruising, ocean passages, and land transportability — intersect to create a straitjacket.

I agree. (The budget should be added as an additional constraint.)  People with wish lists like this go to a designer for a custom boat. So where do you stretch the limits? I think the most likely place is on land transit. A boat that's more challenging to move on land makes the other desires, the real desires, easier to meet. And, to some extent, it's just a matter of getting a bigger truck and someone to load/drive/unload it. Besides, blue water capability can take the place of land transit if you're not going intercontinental.

In the US market, the problem is more difficult because our comparatively benign sailing conditions plus our geography means most of our boats are built for coastal cruising. In addition the crash in the boat business in the late 1980s means most boats of likely designs are 25+ years old, problematic for ambitious cruises. In recent years, J-boats, Hunter, Beneteau, and Catalina have dominated the US market, so the choice is limited. 

The answer probably lies in the France or the Netherlands.  Or even Belgium:

etap-28i-8299811012225065505355695252456

 

 ETAP 28I

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There is a lot to like about ETAPs.  Safe, solid, nicely-insulated, and well thought-out.  The looks don't appeal to me, but hey -- you can't see you own boat when sailing.

However, ETAPs aren't narrow boats, so the beam requirement means a sub-30' boat :(

To my mind, by far the best boat which fits the  land-transportability criteria is the Artekno H-35. Easily handled, and it will have a lovely gentle motion.

The OP says the H-35 is " too long considering its berth capacity", but why is length a problem?  If you think of it as a 3500 kg boat (which it is), then it does fine

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I didn't know about this H35. It looks quite nice and more suited to the OP request than what I was offering. 

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On 8/10/2017 at 0:05 PM, GTom said:

I am doing my research round on a classic for the family (4) that on occasion can also be delivered across oceans by a smaller crew.

Key points:

  • Budget: <40k€ incl refit. Buying in Europe, 
  • Use: 5-6 people for daysailing, crew of 2-3 for long passages (e.g. Atlantic circle)
  • Dimensions: the beam should be <9.8'/3m, weight <5t to maintain some sort of land-transportability. Draft <5.5'
  • So far I considered: Albin Ballad (a little small but sturdy boat), Halberg Rassy 31, Artekno H-35 (bit too long considering its berth capacity), Westerly Longbow 31 (heavy - I don't know, how much a transport guy would ask for 5.5t)

Any other suggestions? The Ballad I researched the most seems really cheap but space is quite limited inside...

Would a C&C Mega work for you? Not sure I would want to cross the Atlantic in one and tankage would be an issue but it checks all the other boxes. The drop keel makes it much easier to ship by road. Some were built in Europe but not sure how many. Price would be well within your budget allowing for significant upgrades.

Mega 30 One-Design drawing on sailboatdata.com

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8 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Would a C&C Mega work for you? Not sure I would want to cross the Atlantic in one and tankage would be an issue but it checks all the other boxes.

Interesting boat, Bristol, which in theory should be loadsa fun to sail.

But at 4500 lbs displacement (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=732) it couldn't take the payload needed for the OP's intended usage of family cruising. Plus it doesn't even have a galley.  Sink, but no stove.

 

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1 minute ago, TwoLegged said:

Interesting boat, Bristol, which in theory should be loadsa fun to sail.

But at 4500 lbs displacement (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=732) it couldn't take the payload needed for the OP's intended usage of family cruising. Plus it doesn't even have a galley.  Sink, but no stove.

 

I don't think the boat he wants exists so it becomes a matter of getting something close that can be modified to meet the other needs. The Mega was designed to be road shipped, so the question is how critical is that feature. Almost by definition such a boat is going to be quite light. I can imagine modifying the boat to have a minimal galley but load carrying is going to be a problem that can't be easily fixed.

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A stove can be added without too much trouble. Friends of ours cruised on their Mega every summer,  for years. . You could also check out Good Old Boat magazine Issue 100, I think where there is a good article on a "cruisified"  Mega

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Another two interesting pieces are the Rival 32 and 34. A full ton heavier though than the Monsun, which adds considerably to the oldschool motion comfort ratio. However added weight without added canvas AFAIK means slower boat. I am also missing an aft berth - which the Monsun has.

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1 hour ago, GTom said:

Another two interesting pieces are the Rival 32 and 34. A full ton heavier though than the Monsun, which adds considerably to the oldschool motion comfort ratio. However added weight without added canvas AFAIK means slower boat. I am also missing an aft berth - which the Monsun has.

Huh?

By "aft berth" do you mean quarter berth?  I have never seen a Rival 32 or 34 without one.

But both Rival 32 & Rival 34 have designed displacement over 11,500lb, so they must be well over 12,000lb with even some gear on board.  That's about 6 tones.

I thought you had set a 5 ton weight limit?

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I don't think you will get a queue of delivery skippers for the transatlantics. Old lightweight 30 ft boats will also be difficult to insure for transatlantics.

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On 14/08/2017 at 10:24 AM, TwoLegged said:

Huh?

By "aft berth" do you mean quarter berth?  I have never seen a Rival 32 or 34 without one.

But both Rival 32 & Rival 34 have designed displacement over 11,500lb, so they must be well over 12,000lb with even some gear on board.  That's about 6 tones.

I thought you had set a 5 ton weight limit?

Right, a quarterberth & thx for the info, it wasn't clear from the layouts I found on sailbiatdata.com.

Yeah, 5 ton would make a sensible weight limit unless there is a huge gain on that added ton. Also, the Monsun has almost double fuel and water tank capacity.

On 14/08/2017 at 7:52 PM, Matagi said:

And then their was this one from some Robert Perry or so...

Thx!

On 14/08/2017 at 11:12 PM, TQA said:

I don't think you will get a queue of delivery skippers for the transatlantics. Old lightweight 30 ft boats will also be difficult to insure for transatlantics.

Skipper would be me, only need a deck hand.

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2 hours ago, GTom said:

Skipper would be me, only need a deck hand.

For a transat, either you are going to be sailing like a solo sailor, with sleep in ten-minute snatches, or the other person needs to be a fully-skilled watch-keeper. 

 

2 hours ago, GTom said:

Yeah, 5 ton would make a sensible weight limit unless there is a huge gain on that added ton. Also, the Monsun has almost double fuel and water tank capacity.

If 5 tonnes is just a target rather than a hard limit, that alters the picture significantly and gives you a much bigger choice of heavy narrow boats.

But what's this road transport thing all about?

Unless you are planning on hauling the boat all around Europe like a nomadic racing dinghy chasing regattas across the continent, the 3m limit (actually 2.9m in the UK) is a trivial issue. In England, for example, it requires only pre-notification to police; in Ireland it requires only a permit on certain designated roads.

Wide loads are much more restricted in Germany, and also in France and Spain ... but I really can't see how it makes economic sense to haul a 5ton boat around Europe by road. By the time you have hauled the boat at one end, done the huge prep needed or safety at 80kmh, and reversed the process at the other end, you will already have gobbled up a sizeable chunk of the cost of hiring a delivery skipper ... and then you have the haulier's fees, which will be non-trivial.

It makes no sense to me.  So what sort of road transport do you have in mind?

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In France, after 3 m, you need a special escort and it becomes a PITA, whereas sub 3m is much easier. I am still with you on the road transport being onerous in terms of limitations. 

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Transporting a keel boat heavier than two point something tons means that you need a professional transport company (or your own truck and the right driver's license ).

This means that any journey longer than a few kilometers costs a lot of money. Like 5000 to 8000 Euros from the baltic sea to the med one way for example. Makes no economic sense if the boat is "only" 40.000 Euros. 

In think extensive trailering and comfortable atlantic circle for four are mutually exclusive for the proposed budget. 

Paul 

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On 18/08/2017 at 9:23 PM, toolbar said:

Transporting a keel boat heavier than two point something tons means that you need a professional transport company (or your own truck and the right driver's license ).

This means that any journey longer than a few kilometers costs a lot of money. Like 5000 to 8000 Euros from the baltic sea to the med one way for example. Makes no economic sense if the boat is "only" 40.000 Euros. 

In think extensive trailering and comfortable atlantic circle for four are mutually exclusive for the proposed budget. 

Paul 

Right, the inland waterways are also a possibility with a shallow draft boat. Trailering seemed to be a useful idea at first but adding up all the costs (=new SUV, trailer, gasoline) and hassle I tend to abandon the idea and simply look for seaworthy shallow draft boats in the 29-33' range.

 

Added Malø 40H to my research.

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It is often faster to sail Offshore than use the canal system. With a decent boat you can sail from LA Coruña to Belgium in a week, going through the canals will take for ever. Even canal du midi takes about the same time as sailing around the Iberian peninsula in one go. 

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1 hour ago, GTom said:

Right, the inland waterways are also a possibility with a shallow draft boat. Trailering seemed to be a useful idea at first but adding up all the costs (=new SUV, trailer, gasoline) and hassle I tend to abandon the idea and simply look for seaworthy shallow draft boats in the 29-33' range.

GTom, you seem to have some odd trains of thought.

You want a seaworthy boat, but then you cripple it by insisting on shallow draft.  There is a reason why offshore boats have deep draft, and if you insist on compromising your offshore boat that way, you will have a hard time making to windward at sea.

It seems to me that you are in danger of emulating what happens when the US armed services set out to create an aircraft which meets all requirements of all the services: a plane which is serves as a dog-fighter, a ground-attack plane, a long-range bomber, an interceptor and a reconnaissance platform.  The result of this quest for an egg-laying, milk-giving, wool-bearing animal whose flesh consists of both pork and beef  is always a massively-over-budget, years late, monstrosity which is well-below average in all its roles. (Their latest money-sink is the F-35 Lightning II).

If you want a canal boat, then get a canal boat.

If you want a canal trailer-sailer, then get a trailer-sailer.

If you want a transatlantic boat, get a transatlantic boat.

If you want a European coastal cruiser, get a European coastal cruiser.

But don't try to combine them in one Swiss Army knife, 'cos boats are not Swiss Army knives. 

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

 

But don't try to combine them in one Swiss Army knife, 'cos boats are not Swiss Army knives. 

Wild Oats begs to differ:

oat.jpg

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5 minutes ago, Grey Dawn said:

 

1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

But don't try to combine them in one Swiss Army knife, 'cos boats are not Swiss Army knives. 

Wild Oats begs to differ:

oat.jpg

 

Haha!

But you are posting fake news ;)

That thing has no corkscrew and no tweezers.  So it's not a real Swiss Army knife, just a cheap Chinese knock-off

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9 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

GTom, you seem to have some odd trains of thought.

You want a seaworthy boat, but then you cripple it by insisting on shallow draft.  There is a reason why offshore boats have deep draft, and if you insist on compromising your offshore boat that way, you will have a hard time making to windward at sea.

It seems to me that you are in danger of emulating what happens when the US armed services set out to create an aircraft which meets all requirements of all the services: a plane which is serves as a dog-fighter, a ground-attack plane, a long-range bomber, an interceptor and a reconnaissance platform.  The result of this quest for an egg-laying, milk-giving, wool-bearing animal whose flesh consists of both pork and beef  is always a massively-over-budget, years late, monstrosity which is well-below average in all its roles. (Their latest money-sink is the F-35 Lightning II).

If you want a canal boat, then get a canal boat.

If you want a canal trailer-sailer, then get a trailer-sailer.

If you want a transatlantic boat, get a transatlantic boat.

If you want a European coastal cruiser, get a European coastal cruiser.

But don't try to combine them in one Swiss Army knife, 'cos boats are not Swiss Army knives. 

Have you read topic title? Would you deem a Contessa 32 and dozens of similar designs unseaworthy?

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9 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Haha!

But you are posting fake news ;)

That thing has no corkscrew and no tweezers.  So it's not a real Swiss Army knife, just a cheap Chinese knock-off

Weren't cheap, and designed to do one ting only!

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1 hour ago, GTom said:
11 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

GTom, you seem to have some odd trains of thought.

You want a seaworthy boat, but then you cripple it by insisting on shallow draft.  There is a reason why offshore boats have deep draft, and if you insist on compromising your offshore boat that way, you will have a hard time making to windward at sea.

It seems to me that you are in danger of emulating what happens when the US armed services set out to create an aircraft which meets all requirements of all the services: a plane which is serves as a dog-fighter, a ground-attack plane, a long-range bomber, an interceptor and a reconnaissance platform.  The result of this quest for an egg-laying, milk-giving, wool-bearing animal whose flesh consists of both pork and beef  is always a massively-over-budget, years late, monstrosity which is well-below average in all its roles. (Their latest money-sink is the F-35 Lightning II).

If you want a canal boat, then get a canal boat.

If you want a canal trailer-sailer, then get a trailer-sailer.

If you want a transatlantic boat, get a transatlantic boat.

If you want a European coastal cruiser, get a European coastal cruiser.

But don't try to combine them in one Swiss Army knife, 'cos boats are not Swiss Army knives. 

Have you read topic title? Would you deem a Contessa 32 and dozens of similar designs unseaworthy?

A Contessa 32 has a 5.5 foot draft - I'd consider that fairly deep for a boat with a 24 foot waterline length.

On the other hand I don't think that shallow draft is a disqualification on seaworthyness - what really matters is the righting moment / AVS and the ability to sail off a lee shore.  Some shallow draft boats can do that better than some deep draft boats.

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5.5 feet draft is probably too much for canal du midi. The official limit is 1.6m and in reality it is less in places unless you are willing to plow mud with your keel. 

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49 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

5.5 feet draft is probably too much for canal du midi. The official limit is 1.6m and in reality it is less in places unless you are willing to plow mud with your keel. 

Right. Rival 32? Westerly longbow?

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4 hours ago, GTom said:

Right. Rival 32? Westerly longbow?

Probably would work for the canal du midi.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

Probably would work for the canal du midi.

That was my line of thinking too. I am also considering the eastern route once along the Danube: http://www.sy-tongji.de/2010/2010.html (sry, german). Definitely not something I'd do every year but seems to be an interesting option to deliver a boat from the Baltic to the Eastern Med.

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2 minutes ago, GTom said:

That was my line of thinking too. I am also considering the eastern route once along the Danube: http://www.sy-tongji.de/2010/2010.html (sry, german). Definitely not something I'd do every year but seems to be an interesting option to deliver a boat from the Baltic to the Med.

If you fancy traveling across Europe through the canals do it, nevertheless it isn't a very efficient way of moving around a boat. For instance you can bring a 30 something feet boat from Marseille to Normandy in 3 weeks sailing around Spain and Portugal, going through the canal system it will be more like 2 months with all the locks and because you have to stop at night.

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6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

You mean they spent loadsamoney and still got no tweezers? ;)

Maybe no tweezers, but it's Wild Oats. I'm sure there is a corkscrew in there somewhere.

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On 10/08/2017 at 4:38 PM, Matagi said:

In order of loveliness:

 

Twister 28

OE 32 (fat bottom' girl, though)

Nicholson 32

Rustler 31 

Hallberg Rassys 29 to 312, all of them, Monsun as well

Victoire 933

Centurion 32

Allegro 30

 

long time nothing

 

Albin Ballad

Arpège

^^^this

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On 8/21/2017 at 4:02 PM, TwoLegged said:

Haha!

But you are posting fake news ;)

That thing has no corkscrew and no tweezers.  So it's not a real Swiss Army knife, just a cheap Chinese knock-off

A Pleatherman.

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On 22.8.2017 at 8:54 PM, Trovão said:

^^^this

Oh pe-leeaaese. really?

I think my wife would divorce me instantly, citing irreconcilable differences in taste.

And rightly so.

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What about a Scampi? They have the advantage over the others on the list of being fun to sail. 

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18 hours ago, Matagi said:

Oh pe-leeaaese. really?

I think my wife would divorce me instantly, citing irreconcilable differences in taste.

And rightly so.

what can i say? i have kind of a crush for the arpége. it was the first cabin boat i sailed on when i was a kid, a loooong time ago.

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4 minutes ago, Trovão said:
18 hours ago, Matagi said:

Oh pe-leeaaese. really?

I think my wife would divorce me instantly, citing irreconcilable differences in taste.

And rightly so.

what can i say? i have kind of a crush for the arpége. it was the first cabin boat i sailed on when i was a kid, a loooong time ago.

The Dufour Arpège is a pretty boat, with an enviable record of ocean crossings and a reputation for great manners at sea.

Maybe Mrs Matagi prefers woodcaves with double berths instead of the Arpège's sea-berths and internal mouldings

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18 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

The Dufour Arpège is a pretty boat, with an enviable record of ocean crossings and a reputation for great manners at sea.

Maybe Mrs Matagi prefers woodcaves with double berths instead of the Arpège's sea-berths and internal mouldings

well-deserved i should add.

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1 hour ago, Trovão said:

what can i say? i have kind of a crush for the arpége. it was the first cabin boat i sailed on when i was a kid, a loooong time ago.

ok. Nostalgia always counts. We share that.

I'll have a closer look, I promise

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18 hours ago, LB 15 said:

What about a Scampi? They have the advantage over the others on the list of being fun to sail. 

Scampi is more-or-less a Ballad hull with different engine layout (in some versions), variations in rudder design, and ~800 lbs less ballast. It was Norlin's turbo version of Rolf's Ballad, optimized for IOR handicapping. Quicker than the Ballad in light air, but also notably more tender.  Still suffers from the large genoa/tiny main liability. Really needs meat on the rail if you want to carry full sail upwind, and it does has the downwind looseness of late IOR design. There are workarounds ... but there are better boats for family cruising, too. :) 

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5 minutes ago, Matagi said:

ok. Nostalgia always counts. We share that.

I'll have a closer look, I promise

It's an amazing boat -- but very very French. 

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41 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

It's an amazing boat -- but very very French. 

I am not sure that it is so French, it's a well designed boat and it probably was ahead of its time but some British yards were also building boats with a not too far away philosophy (sadler and contessa for instance)

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38 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

I am not sure that it is so French, it's a well designed boat and it probably was ahead of its time but some British yards were also building boats with a not too far away philosophy (sadler and contessa for instance)

I'd say the Contessa 32 is quite a different boat, with clear Folkboat roots.  The Arpège has a much more modern canoe hull, and a very different interior.

In 1979, David Sadler began building the Sadler 32, whose hull-form is much closer to the Dufour Arpège.  But that was 13 years after the Arpège went into production

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3 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

I sailed the Chi-Mac race on an ARPEGE. Slowest rated boat in the fleet and very deserving of its rating. Not the boat for me.

When was that, Bob?

An Arpège won the 1967 half-ton cup, and another was 3rd in 1968, so they were competitive in their day.  But like nearly everything else of that era, they were rapidly outclassed under IOR

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4 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I'd say the Contessa 32 is quite a different boat, with clear Folkboat roots.  The Arpège has a much more modern canoe hull, and a very different interior.

In 1979, David Sadler began building the Sadler 32, whose hull-form is much closer to the Dufour Arpège.  But that was 13 years after the Arpège  went into production

True that the contessa 32 is quite different. The Arpege was already outdated when I learnt to sail in the 80s but you are right to point out that it was a 1960s design at a time when long keel designs weren't quite vintage yet.

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4 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

An Arpège won the 1967 half-ton cup, and another was 3rd in 1968, so they were competitive in their day.  But like nearly everything else of that era, they were rapidly outclassed under IOR

I hadn't realised that it used to be a half tonner! Wow, the world has moved on...

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3 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

I hadn't realised that it used to be a half tonner! Wow, the world has moved on...

Don't forget that in 1967, the very pretty, long-keeled Merle of Malham (designed by Yves Marie Tanton) was a competitive (tho not top-flight) quarter-tonner.

Merle is a lovely boat, and a joy to sail, but the one-year-older Arpège looks a decade younger.

59a05b56041df_MerleofMalham600x379.jpg.53360a570328f245ac0cc297206001de.jpg

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Leggs:

Yes, I am well aware of the ARPEGE race record. It's my business to know about boats.I had a major shit fight with a French guy on another forum who did not believe the ARPEGE was ever a race boat. Idiot!

I raced the Chi-Mac race in the ARPEGE in 1974. It was owned by the father of a young man who was working for me at the time. We put together and all star crew of Seattle sailors and the owner flew us back for the frace. It was very light air and we did not finish the race. The poor little ARPEGE was woefully short on sail area for light air racing. A Quite a few boats dropped out that year.

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10 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Yes, I am well aware of the ARPEGE race record. It's my business to know about boats.

I had kinda noticed that Bob :)

That's why I asked "when".

10 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

I raced the Chi-Mac race in the ARPEGE in 1974. It was owned by the father of a young man who was working for me at the time. We put together and all star crew of Seattle sailors and the owner flew us back for the frace. It was very light air and we did not finish the race. The poor little ARPEGE was woefully short on sail area for light air racing. A Quite a few boats dropped out that year.

Light airs are a bit of a rarity in the Arpège home waters of Brittany and the English Channel, so it would be silly to optimise for them.   It would have been interesting to see how the 8-year-old Arpège would have fared with an all star crew in heavier winds

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32 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Don't forget that in 1967, the very pretty, long-keeled Merle of Malham (designed by Yves Marie Tanton) was a competitive (tho not top-flight) quarter-tonner.

Merle is a lovely boat, and a joy to sail, but the one-year-older Arpège looks a decade younger.

59a05b56041df_MerleofMalham600x379.jpg.53360a570328f245ac0cc297206001de.jpg

Another nice boat by Tanton!

When mentionning long keeled boats, I was thinking of the Contessa 26 which is about the same vintage as the Arpège. They were definitely busy designing new exciting stuff in the 60s and 70s. It's cool to see how these 3 different boats which all were ahead of  their time differ and each time for a better design.

Muscadet 1963 :

muscadet-12-min.jpg

Arpège 1967 :

Occasion-Peut-on-avoir-confiance-dans-so

Révolution 1972 :

REVO.jpg

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Pano, I like all three, but I have a particular soft spot for the Muscadet.

As a kid in south-west Ireland in the 1970s, I was fascinated by these very simple (often crude) small, fast tough boats which were sailed from Brittany by people who clearly had very low budgets.  A complete contrast to the glossy yots which came from England

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Pano, I like all three, but I have a particular soft spot for the Muscadet.

As a kid in south-west Ireland in the 1970s, I was fascinated by these very simple (often crude) small, fast tough boats which were sailed from Brittany by people who clearly had very low budgets.  A complete contrast to the glossy yots which came from England

I also have a soft spot for the Muscadet. It is pretty special and it is also a very safe and sound boat. Here, the plywood boats of this era hold value better than their GRP counterparts, we got used to the different look and we know that even if most of the rest of the world disagree with us that these are good boats. You get an easy to use boat that you can maintain with few tools, that doesn't become soft over time and is fairly light. I rented an Armagnac (that's the Muscadet big brother) in South Brittany during the Easter holidays and we spent a fabulous week, it is so easy to use that the whole family got actually involved, I've had the chance to crew on some really optimised IRC machines but I still have fun on those chined boats. Tacking in a narrow channel in Glénans tiller between legs and a genoa sheet in each hand is pretty cool. 

We love sailing to Ireland because we feel welcomed there and yes there are quite a few Breton boats sailed there on a relatively low budget. If you spend time preparing the boat and the crew, it is fine. I haven't made the crossing for a while, I want to see Kinsale again. I've never been as far as Galway, one day....

Talking about yots, Révolution was painted red and named like this on purpose at a time when their opponents were very "upper" class and including people like Heath, the owner asked Finot to design the shortest and simplest boat that could beat the glossy yots from across the Channel....

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6 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

Scampi is more-or-less a Ballad hull with different engine layout (in some versions), variations in rudder design, and ~800 lbs less ballast. It was Norlin's turbo version of Rolf's Ballad, optimized for IOR handicapping. Quicker than the Ballad in light air, but also notably more tender.  Still suffers from the large genoa/tiny main liability. Really needs meat on the rail if you want to carry full sail upwind, and it does has the downwind looseness of late IOR design. There are workarounds ... but there are better boats for family cruising, too. :) 

Actually the Scampi is one of the best downwind boats the IOR produced. In the 1000's of miles I have driven a scampi we never chinesed nor broched. Who ever told you that they were a handful down wind needs to learn to sail. 

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5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Light airs are a bit of a rarity in the Arpège home waters of Brittany and the English Channel, so it would be silly to optimise for them.   It would have been interesting to see how the 8-year-old Arpège would have fared with an all star crew in heavier winds

Leggs:

I suspect we would have kicked ass.

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2 hours ago, Panoramix said:

I rented an Armagnac (that's the Muscadet big brother) in South Brittany during the Easter holidays and we spent a fabulous week, it is so easy to use that the whole family got actually involved, I've had the chance to crew on some really optimised IRC machines but I still have fun on those chined boats. Tacking in a narrow channel in Glénans tiller between legs and a genoa sheet in each hand is pretty cool.

I found some pictures of an Armagnac. Lovely-looking boats.

Tell me, Pano, would you be able help me to ID a larger plywood boat?

In the late 70s, there was a steady flow into West Cork of big plywood boats.  Well, big by Irish standards of the time, when under-30ft was normal.  These boats were 35–40ft, plywood, flush deck, and simple to the point of crudeness.  They looked like a bigger version of the small keelboats used by Les Glénans sailing school in Baltimore: dark blue hulls, grey decks, all fittings galvanised steel, no windlass, no head, no engine — just a single big scull.  Everything about them looked well-used, unpolished and stout.

Very well sailed, with huge panache, by sailors who were legendary for speaking no English, for their seamanship and for being tight with money.    Crew could be anything from a gang of twenty-somethings to a family with babies on board.   As a young teenager, I thought they were the coolest thing ever, especially since the women were often doing the boat-handling and the expert sculling.

Any idea what they might have been?

2 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Talking about yots, Révolution was painted red and named like this on purpose at a time when their opponents were very "upper" class and including people like Heath, the owner asked Finot to design the shortest and simplest boat that could beat the glossy yots from across the Channel....

I didn't know that.  It's a lovely story, but it does explain why the suits moved so fast to ban her :(

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7 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Tell me, Pano, would you be able help me to ID a larger plywood boat?

In the late 70s, there was a steady flow into West Cork of big plywood boats.  Well, big by Irish standards of the time, when under-30ft was normal.  These boats were 35–40ft, plywood, flush deck, and simple to the point of crudeness.  They looked like a bigger version of the small keelboats used by Les Glénans sailing school in Baltimore: dark blue hulls, grey decks, all fittings galvanised steel, no windlass, no head, no engine — just a single big scull.  Everything about them looked well-used, unpolished and stout.

Very well sailed, with huge panache, by sailors who were legendary for speaking no English, for their seamanship and for being tight with money.    Crew could be anything from a gang of twenty-somethings to a family with babies on board.   As a young teenager, I thought they were the coolest thing ever, especially since the women were often doing the boat-handling and the expert sculling.

 

That was obviously pre-RM time and AFAIK, the big plywood boat at the time was the Aquavit but it doesn't fit your description at all :

P1090133.jpg

Cork is traditionally the first port of call when you cross from Brittany, so you must have seen quite a few of us. From the way they behaved, I suspect that this was either a club or a sailing school, I can't remember a Les Glénans boat like this but it could well be them as they were notorious for sculling into harbours at the time. I am going to have a look, my dad has an old navigation treaty from them and I think that all their boats are described. If it is an another association, it will be hard for me to find, I can't recall these boats but in the early 80s, I was a small kid sailing in the St Malo area and obviously clubs/schools which were offering crossings to Ireland were based further West, so it is possible that I haven't noticed.

Were the Baltimore boats these ones :

cavale1.jpg

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19 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

Scampi is more-or-less a Ballad hull with different engine layout (in some versions), variations in rudder design, and ~800 lbs less ballast. It was Norlin's turbo version of Rolf's Ballad, optimized for IOR handicapping. Quicker than the Ballad in light air, but also notably more tender.  Still suffers from the large genoa/tiny main liability. Really needs meat on the rail if you want to carry full sail upwind, and it does has the downwind looseness of late IOR design. There are workarounds ... but there are better boats for family cruising, too. :) 

Hmpf!  Ballad and Scampi are two completely different boats. They have some few things in common: designed in about the same time, in Sweden by Swedes  and having about the same LOA. Otherwise - they sail completely different. Ballad is the heavy boat, easily handling steep waves and strong winds and Scampi comes to its best in an archipelago. 

//J

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Going back to the OP interest the Omega 34 is interesting. Designed by Ron Holland, 34 ft, beam 3 m, draft 1.5m, 4.5 ton. Easy to sail, yet fast. Bit tender of course. Loads of volume inside. 
Beautyful. 

Peter Norlin designed a similar one (after Omega34 had made a success) called Albin Nova. 33 ft. Probably a it heavier. Higher freeboards. 
Some few years efore that he designed a more original Norlin boat, the 45 ft "Stratus" (also marked by Albin). That one is more of a real boat. Probably out of scope for the OP due to length, beam and weight.

An a way I am surprised by the original question: there are many boats which meets most of the requirements. 

//J

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21 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Tell me, Pano, would you be able help me to ID a larger plywood boat?

In the late 70s, there was a steady flow into West Cork of big plywood boats.  Well, big by Irish standards of the time, when under-30ft was normal.  These boats were 35–40ft, plywood, flush deck, and simple to the point of crudeness.  They looked like a bigger version of the small keelboats used by Les Glénans sailing school in Baltimore: dark blue hulls, grey decks, all fittings galvanised steel, no windlass, no head, no engine — just a single big scull.  Everything about them looked well-used, unpolished and stout.

Very well sailed, with huge panache, by sailors who were legendary for speaking no English, for their seamanship and for being tight with money.    Crew could be anything from a gang of twenty-somethings to a family with babies on board.   As a young teenager, I thought they were the coolest thing ever, especially since the women were often doing the boat-handling and the expert sculling.

I had a look tonight but without luck, sorry I can't help!

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13 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

Going back to the OP interest the Omega 34 is interesting. Designed by Ron Holland, 34 ft, beam 3 m, draft 1.5m, 4.5 ton. Easy to sail, yet fast. Bit tender of course. Loads of volume inside. 
Beautyful.

I have never seen one, but the reports I have read suggest not the best construction, e, e.g. bulkheads located by internal mouldings rather than tabbed to hull.  If so, more of a coastal boat than the transat boat which the OP seeks.

13 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

Peter Norlin designed a similar one (after Omega34 had made a success) called Albin Nova. 33 ft. Probably a it heavier. Higher freeboards. 

Some few years efore that he designed a more original Norlin boat, the 45 ft "Stratus" (also marked by Albin). That one is more of a real boat. Probably out of scope for the OP due to length, beam and weight.

The Norlin-designed 33' Albin Nova is beamier and (on paper) about 20% lighter than the Holland-designed Omega 34.  That suggests to me that despite similarities of size, rig and appearance, they may handle quite differently.

The Albin Stratus is a 36' Norlin-designed IOR ¾-tonner, presumably with all the joys of IOR hulls.

The 40-footer you were thinking of may be the Albin Nimbus,  a 42' Kaufman & Ladd design.  Looks tasty in a classic-Swan sorta way, but with a big-foretriangle masthead rig and more than twice the displacement of the 33/34-footers, it's a monster compared to them.

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On 8/25/2017 at 6:50 PM, Bob Perry said:

Amen LB.

Scampi is a fabulous boat. I owned a Norlin boat for 15 years. He was a great designer.

Any thoughts on the Albin Nova?  Also a Norlin boat that looks great on paper. I'm looking at one next week. Any insights are appreciated,

Dan

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I have never seen one, but the reports I have read suggest not the best construction, e, e.g. bulkheads located by internal mouldings rather than tabbed to hull.  If so, more of a coastal boat than the transat boat which the OP seeks.

The Norlin-designed 33' Albin Nova is beamier and (on paper) about 20% lighter than the Holland-designed Omega 34.  That suggests to me that despite similarities of size, rig and appearance, they may handle quite differently.

The Albin Stratus is a 36' Norlin-designed IOR ¾-tonner, presumably with all the joys of IOR hulls.

The 40-footer you were thinking of may be the Albin Nimbus,  a 42' Kaufman & Ladd design.  Looks tasty in a classic-Swan sorta way, but with a big-foretriangle masthead rig and more than twice the displacement of the 33/34-footers, it's a monster compared to them.

Leggs, I am disappointed:

1) bulkheads in Omega34 are indeed tabbed to the hull. You admit not to know and then give incorrect statements.

2) the Omega34 and the Nova are nearly identical, Omega 34 beam 3.0 m while Nova is 3.15 m; Omega 34 weights 4.5 ton while the Nova is 4.4 ton. At that time, early 1980s, this was considered light, nobody thought of a 34 ft 20% lighter. The main difference in hulls is the draft, Omega34 is 1.5 m while Nova is 1.7 m. Then as said the Nova has a higher hull giving more internal volume.

sail size differ, Omega has 33 + 22 sqm, wheras the Nova is 28 + 16 sqm. Thus the Omega is more tender but faster. I have been sailing both extensively, they are very similar in handling. 

3) you may cathegorize Stratus as a 3/4 tonner but it is no way an extreme IOR design. Weight about 5.5 tons and sails around 30 + 20 sqm, partial. 

4) I never even hinted about the Albin Nimbus; it was never markeded here, have never seen one IRL, and these are totally outside the OP scope. Do not understand why you bring it into this discussion.

In summary your comments were incorrect on all points. Your comments use to be good, but in this case not at all. 

/J

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Jam, I think you should re-read what I actually wrote.

41 minutes ago, Jaramaz said:

1) bulkheads in Omega34 are indeed tabbed to the hull. You admit not to know and then give incorrect statements.

Here's my source: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?340039-Anybody-experience-of-sailing-a-Swedish-Omega-34

I didn't assert this as fact, and I specifically said "if so".

42 minutes ago, Jaramaz said:

2) the Omega34 and the Nova are nearly identical, Omega 34 beam 3.0 m while Nova is 3.15 m; Omega 34 weights 4.5 ton while the Nova is 4.4 ton. At that time, early 1980s, this was considered light, nobody thought of a 34 ft 20% lighter. The main difference in hulls is the draft, Omega34 is 1.5 m while Nova is 1.7 m. Then as said the Nova has a higher hull giving more internal volume.

I took care to link my source in each case: Sailboatdata.com.

It lists Nova 8177 lbs./ 3709 kgs, and Omega 10141 lbs./ 4600 kgs.  That is 19.37% lighter

I don't see any source for your numbers. Maybe you are right and Sailboatdata is wrong, but where's your source?

42 minutes ago, Jaramaz said:

3) you may cathegorize Stratus as a 3/4 tonner but it is no way an extreme IOR design. Weight about 5.5 tons and sails around 30 + 20 sqm, partial.

I didn't say it was extreme. But as a competitive 3/4 tonner, I doubt it was entirely free of IORishness

58 minutes ago, Jaramaz said:

4) I never even hinted about the Albin Nimbus; it was never markeded here, have never seen one IRL, and these are totally outside the OP scope. Do not understand why you bring it into this discussion.

No, you referred to the Stratus as a 45-footer, which it isn't.

16 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

Some few years efore that he designed a more original Norlin boat, the 45 ft "Stratus" (also marked by Albin). That one is more of a real boat. Probably out of scope for the OP due to length, beam and weight.

That's multiply wrong. I corrected you on that.

1 hour ago, Jaramaz said:

In summary your comments were incorrect on all points. Your comments use to be good, but in this case not at all.

Jam, I think that before dismissing someone like that, you should read a little more carefully both what you originally wrote and what the reply actually said.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Jam, I think you should re-read what I actually wrote.

Here's my source: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?340039-Anybody-experience-of-sailing-a-Swedish-Omega-34

I didn't assert this as fact, and I specifically said "if so".

I took care to link my source in each case: Sailboatdata.com.

It lists Nova 8177 lbs./ 3709 kgs, and Omega 10141 lbs./ 4600 kgs.  That is 19.37% lighter

I don't see any source for your numbers. Maybe you are right and Sailboatdata is wrong, but where's your source?

I didn't say it was extreme. But as a competitive 3/4 tonner, I doubt it was entirely free of IORishness

No, you referred to the Stratus as a 45-footer, which it isn't.

That's multiply wrong. I corrected you on that.

Jam, I think that before dismissing someone like that, you should read a little more carefully both what you originally wrote and what the reply actually said.

Dear Leggs,

Firstly, I admitt to a very serious mistake: I made a typo about the Stratus, that should have been 35 ft but somehow my fat fingers touched the wrong key and I did not see that. That is as I think you can see one error, not multiple.

 

Apart from that .... from your comments I see you are carefully looking into various sites for information. But when doing so one has to be careful to find the right one. Sailboatdata is not the very best one when it comes to boats designed and built for (and in) Sweden, guess Sailboatdata - as most others - is contribution driven.

No, Nova really weights 4.4 tonnes. You can find that on eg the Swedish site sailguide.com (just key in Albin Nova in the first search field and then the rest is obvious). If you then say that this is one site against another then I suggest a look on Wikipaedia: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albin_Nova

OK, this is still in Swedish but you will easily find the relevant data to the right.

Story is, the company which was marketing Omega34 had had Peter Norlin to design the lovely Omega42, retail price was very aggresive. The 42 was however a large boat, they wanted a hot 30+ ft cruiser and somehow got Ron Holland to design the 34. It was a huge success, Albin Marin noted this immediately - it was sufficient to see the drawings and price - they contacted Peter Norlin to do something similar. The Nova is then to a large extent a copy of the Omega34, with better inside volume but somewhat slower (as said). This appealed even more to the crusing crowd, there was about 350 Omega 34 made and 500 of the Novas.
Both met one of main requirements: considerably faster than  Ballad and Scampi, the Omega and Nova are about 10% faster than B & S.

At that time, early 1980s, it was not really possible to construct a 33-34 ft family cruiser much lightern than these ~4.5 tons if it should go on mass production with a competitive price. 20% lighter as you indicate was just considered impossible.
However, some few years later, mid 1980s I think, we saw the arrival of the Dehler 34 (sometimes called Optima). That weighted only 4 tons, higher quailty and faster! Damn that VdS! OTOH these were more expensive. Further 10% reduction in weight, at that time? No, not with the boundary conditions given. I think you should have reacted on the figure of 3.7 tons for the Nova, you know, crtitical reading and all that.

And even today when we look around, 33-34 ft boats usually are not much lighter, most "family cruisers" are heavier.

Then about the ybw post. That was a bad and somewhat incorrect translated text, originally written by a guy, Curt Gelin, who had not been in an Omega34 when he wrote the text - that I know firsthand as I discussed Omega34 with him some 20 years ago. CG is well known in Sweden, writing articles in boat magazines and writing books as "review of 500 most popular boats" - he is often writing his texts based on broschures and similar. Actually the text said the bulkhead were bolted, not that hey were a part of the internal mouldings ...
(there are more errors in the CG text, but let's leave it at that).

Going back to the Stratus it behaves very well. All boats from around that time has some IOR behaviour, also the Omega34 and Nova. Actually think the Stratus behaves better than those (yes, have sailed Stratus as well) - you did notice the sailplan of the Stratus? The Stratus bottum is not as flat, it really has a different handling than the Omega or Nova.

//J

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From what I have read about Albin's design studios in that day, from someone tangentially involved: Norlin's brief on the Scampi was to start with the basic Ballad hull form -- which sold well but wasn't competitive under IOR -- and optimize it for Half Ton cup racing.  Not a 'clean sheet of paper' design, but rather Norlin taking a conservative cruiser/racer and making it over to a competitive racer/cruiser.  He turned out four versions of the Scampi in succession, each objectively faster than the priors (c.181-->165 PHRF) and each adopting certain handicap tricks -- like raising the VCG, or placing the engine in the forepeak to lift the stern for shorter measured LWL.

As TwoLegged notes re: the Stratus, the Scampi's Ballad-based hull & keel design remained conservative enuf these tweaks wouldn't drag you into Stephen-Jones land; but they were still aimed at producing a winning IOR Half-Tonner, and that's not conducive to a great cruising boat.  Remember, the point of this discussion is to help the OP find a suitable boat for his or her stated itinerary. The Ballad is a great boat, and I really admire it (and own one), but it's not first choice for an Atlantic circle.  The Scampi is also a great boat, but the alterations that made it a much better IOR racer make it much worse for what the OP intends. BTW, the J/30 rates about 35 sec/mile faster than the Scampi Mk4 and might serve for at least the coastal portion of the OP's plans.  The Athena 34

276490-b8a4126bc801a5530b49817231d0dcb3-

And the Finngulf 34

2016309_16.jpg?1300928815000

began life as the same boat; the Finngulf was the IOR-optimized version (750lbs lighter, that horrible tummy tuck).  Which would you rather cruise in?

 

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58 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

From what I have read about Albin's design studios in that day, from someone tangentially involved: Norlin's brief on the Scampi was to start with the basic Ballad hull form -- which sold well but wasn't competitive under IOR -- and optimize it for Half Ton cup racing.  Not a 'clean sheet of paper' design, but rather Norlin taking a conservative cruiser/racer and making it over to a competitive racer/cruiser.

Diarmuid,

I am most sorry to say but this is just completely incorrect. Don't know who has invented this saga, but it is pure ... BS.

Peter Norlin designed the Scampi in 1969 (I remember it very well). The first boats were made in wood. Then production in GRP was started at Älvdalens Plast (not much Albin there, is it?). In 1974 (ie 5 years after original design) production and rights were taken over by Shipman Boats (still no Albin in sight) and ended up in Albin first in 1977 when Shipman and Albin merged, 8 years after design.

"Albin design studios" - my god, you have no clue, do you? There was never a "design studio" at Albin. Albin started as an engine company, making the famous O21, O11 and other interesting engines for small and medium sized boats. During 1960s and 1970s they wanted to grow, to put their engines in more boats - the recipie is simple: see to that there are boats to put these into. One thing lead to the other and Albin sold their engines to Volvo Penta (heard of those?), some of the first small VP MDxx were based on Albins design. Albin themselves went into boats instead, more money, more focus. They got lucky with some boats - they bought the rights to the Joker from a small boatbuilding company (in Arvika, I think) which went burst. This was around 1972. Joker was renamed to Ballad.

If you now see the timeline here you see that Albin got the Ballad 1972 - 3 years after Scampi was designed.

If you then take a look on the hulls of Ballad and Scampi you should be able to see that the Ballad is a clever design along the lines created in the mid 1960s, whereas Scampi is much more innovative. Both are good, in their own ways, but certainly different.

 

Then in your post you suggest the Athena 34 to the OP ... oh, yes, that is at least original.   A fairly early Södergren design, with not so much internal volume and probably not so nice behavior in seas (the same for other Södergren designs from that time).

//J

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Many thanks for all the contributions, I learnt a lot. Eventually family stepped in and they would like a bigger boat, no more trailering & Co. That belongs to another topic.

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