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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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I know this is only partly related to sailing,but then again a lot is around here :)

A very bizar story is unfolding in Denmark right now. It all started yesterday (August 11th) with a privately build (the world largest privately build sub) submarine went missing with the builder and a Swedish journalist onboard.
Later it was spotted, and soon after it sunk and the builder was rescued to a nearby boat.
The journalist however was not around.... Builder claimed she had disembarked then night before in Copenhagen and he had continued on his own.
The lady journalist was missing though.
Last night the police arrested him for the murder of her (even though there is yet no body)....
Ships are now trying to salvage the sub to get a look inside....
Court hearing later today...
The builder is quite famous in Denmark as a kind of "nyttu enigineer" for the last couple of years he and his team has been working on the first privately build rocket to be launched into space... I think that comes to an end now...

Google translate from a summay in a danish newspaper.

 

Drama minute by minute
The case of first the missing home-built submarine UC3 Nautilus and subsequently, where the vessel's constructor, Peter 'Raket' Madsen is charged with killing, is quite violent and spectacular.

Here's a timeline over the course:

Around. 19: The submarine stole out on Thursday evening. Several random witnesses leave the submarine leaving Refshale Island, where the vessel is at home, and then sail from Copenhagen Harbor in the beautiful summer evening.

In the tower, Peter 'Raket' Madsen was seen together with a 30-year-old female Swedish journalist who participated in the tour.

Good at 02:30: Here the woman's boyfriend contacted the Joint Rescue Coordination Center - JRCC - and reported the submarine missing because the girlfriend had not returned.

Kl. 02.51: Here Lyngby Radio called the submarine in vain, but there was no answer.

Kl. 03.39: Here the JRCC contacts and states that an accident has occurred and that the submarine may have been out of order.

Kl. 0711: Lyngby Radio broadcast a general alarm for the shipping in Øresund and the eastern Baltic Sea to look for the submarine.

Kl. 1014: The JRCC received a message from ships and both in the area south of Drogden Lighthouse, that the submarine was located in Køge Bay.

Kl. 10.39: Peter 'Raket' Madsen called from the submarine to a rescue helicopter and explained that he had a course against Copenhagen. He explained that he had some technical problems, but that there was no one in need.

Here the search for the submarine was blown off.

Around 11 o'clock Peter 'Raket' stood Madsen in the tower on the submarine. A witness standing in a boat close to has told him how he disappeared shortly under deck, and then he appeared in the tower again.

Then the submarine suddenly began to sink, and Peter Madsen ran into the ocean. The submarine sank in good 30 seconds.

Madsen was picked up by a boat and sailed to the port of Dragør.

He told him that he was the only person on board and that he had sailed back to Refshale Island on the previous evening, where he had put the woman off. Then he was sailed out again.

Around. 11.30: Here he arrived at Dragør, briefly explaining that he had some problems with the vessel's one ballast tank. And when he had tried to fix it, it went wrong and the vessel was sunk.

Then he had been driven to the Police Station City at Halmtorvet to get in touch. Here the purpose was to clarify the background for the shipwreck, and besides the police there were also maritime personnel.

At the police station there were also family members of the missing woman. They were clearly upset and they also came to the station to be questioned.

In the middle of the afternoon: Dives from the Navy arrived to the area south of Drogden Lighthouse, where you dived down to investigate the submarine wreck. It was not possible for the divers to get into the wreck.

Kl. 17.44: The Copenhagen Police issued a press release that the owner of the submarine was now arrested and charged with killing the Swedish woman.

In the press release it was described that he refused to kill and that he had explained that he had put the woman off at the tip of Refshale Island, near the Half-Supper Restriction at around. 22:30.

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 will possibly be the trailer for  next years season 02 episode 01 Midnight Sun TV  Series

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2 hours ago, By the lee said:

Maybe he put her in a weighted bag and shot her out the torpedo tube?

and a whole new meaning to "Go Deep"

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Police has finished the initial investigations of the sub.
As has been said, the young woman was not on board, but the police says that investigations seems to indicate that the sub-marine sank on purpose (with the "help" of the Captain)
It is also known that he has changed his statement about setting the lady off friday evening, we do however not know what the new statement is.
An intensive search operation in the waters south of copenhagen is till ongoing.
The doors were closed on the court hearing. The police wanted this, with the argument that the things that would be uncovered, would be very embarrasing for the relatives to the victim. (The police has from the beginning used the term victim even though no body has yet been discovered)

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57 minutes ago, overbend said:

But aren't submarines supposed to sink?

 

No, they are supposed to submerge. Subtle difference.

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On 8/16/2017 at 3:01 PM, overbend said:

But aren't submarines supposed to sink?

 

1ugx6h.jpg

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Mishap.

Sounds so innocent 

What you say when she overdosed or other embarrassing shit he wants to hide.

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6 minutes ago, Norse Horse said:

Mishap.

Sounds so innocent 

What you say when she overdosed or other embarrassing shit he wants to hide.

Yeah at was just an unfortunate accident, so he decided to bury her at sea (while he was less than 5 nm from nearest land), and to lie and say that he had brought her to land the evening before. All this just before he decided to sink the sub-marine, when he had made contact with the rescuers.

Just another bad day at sea ... :ph34r:

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Give the submarine a nice saltwater rinsing out, nice way to get rid of any forensic evidence.

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Submarine owner confirms death of missing Swedish journalist

 

Peter Madsen told Copenhagen City Court today that an accident led to Kim Wall’s demise

 

18582386_10154966171808122_4809587805159Sub drama continues in the courtroom (photo: Mikkel Timon Bedsted- Facebook)

August 21st, 2017 10:32 am| by Christian 

Peter Madsen, who has been charged with negligent manslaughter in connection with the missing Swedish journalist Kim Wall, has confirmed in Copenhagen City Court today that an accident took place on board his submarine ‘Nautilus’, which led to the death of Wall.

Madsen told the court that he subsequently buried the journalist at sea at an undisclosed location in Køge Bay.


Copenhagen Police said it would uphold the charge of negligent manslaughter, but refused to provide further information regarding the case as it is still investigating.

READ MORE: Media interest in suspicious submarine ‘death’ intensifies as Øresund sighting is confirmed

Sonar search
The Danish and Swedish maritime authorities have mapped the submarine’s route in Køge Bay and Øresund on the night in question and several dives have been undertaken along the route. The search will continue today using sonar equipment.

Wall joined Madsen on his sub on August 10, but the vessel sank on Friday morning. Madsen was rescued, but Wall has remained missing ever since.

Madsen initially said he had dropped off the 30-year-old journalist near Refshaleøen in Copenhagen late on Thursday night, but he was charged with causing the death of the woman the following day after the police found discrepancies in his story.

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Breaking news

A body (torso only, no head, legs or arms) has been recovered from the sea, close to the area where the sub was.
We do not know yet if it is the journalist but it most likely is.

It must have been a bad accident .... :unsure:

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2 hours ago, 12345 said:

so dude said she had a mishap and he had to bury her at sea

This raises an interesting question: under what circumstances is a burial at sea appropriate?

If you are crossing an ocean, perhaps, but surely not if you are a few hours steaming away from the nearest port? Where's the cutoff?

 

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It's not everyone who can dismantle a corpse. I would certainly have trouble with the major joints, it's not like finishing off a cooked chicken into different Ziplocs.

 

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29 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

It's not everyone who can dismantle a corpse. I would certainly have trouble with the major joints, it's not like finishing off a cooked chicken into different Ziplocs.

 

True, at the press conference the investigator would not tell if it was his opinion that it was dismembered on purpose, or it could "just have been an accident with the propellers on the sub".
I find it hard to believe that a floating body would precisely rotate in a way, that contact with the propeller would remove every limb and the head, but leave the torso intact .... :blink:
 

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Take a guest out for a sail, and next thing the boat goes all scissorhands and guest is instantly turned into a shish kebab.

Could happen to any of us, couldn't it?  

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Shit. I'm going to Denmark next weekend for a race...will try to not look for arms and legs in the water.

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4 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Shit. I'm going to Denmark next weekend for a race...will try to not look for arms and legs in the water.

If someone offers you a datenight in their submarine; say no thanks

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3 minutes ago, AndreasE said:

If someone offers you a datenight in their submarine; say no thanks

:P  I've seen in movies what happens on/with submarines, so I would NEVER say yes to that.

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Latest details revealed (and some more nasty shit)

The dimensions of the torso does fit the size of the journalist.
Tomorrow it should be clear if it is her.

It is also determined that the limbs has been removed on purpose, not as a consequence of an accident.

Someone had the idea to enlarge submarine-captains hands on a picture of him when he came in from being "rescued".
hands.thumb.jpg.c5c9d683c094841add4ec9159d722e83.jpg

At first I thought this will make a great danish movie, but I think it is probably Hollywood material now.
Who should play the captain/mad scientist/inventor?

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6 hours ago, NORBowGirl said:

Shit. I'm going to Denmark next weekend for a race...will try to not look for arms and legs in the water.

Be careful if you're offered a random boat trip. :wacko:

 

edit,

i was beaten to it. 

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23 minutes ago, ModernViking said:

Latest details revealed (and some more nasty shit)

The dimensions of the torso does fit the size of the journalist.
Tomorrow it should be clear if it is her.

It is also determined that the limbs has been removed on purpose, not as a consequence of an accident.

Someone had the idea to enlarge submarine-captains hands on a picture of him when he came in from being "rescued".
hands.thumb.jpg.c5c9d683c094841add4ec9159d722e83.jpg

At first I thought this will make a great danish movie, but I think it is probably Hollywood material now.
Who should play the captain/mad scientist/inventor?

Anthony Hopkins. 

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18 minutes ago, mad said:

Anthony Hopkins. 

Thought about him too, but isn't he a little too sophisticated?
Bryan Cranston perhaps (Walter White from Breaking Bad) ?

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So, this morning the media reports that the torso has her DNA.

Fucking hell, what a nasty case :(

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41 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

So, this morning the media reports that the torso has her DNA.

Fucking hell, what a nasty case :(

It is indeed !
What a horrorfull environment in that submarine that night... 
I really really hope she died quickly :wacko::(

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On 8/22/2017 at 5:06 AM, NORBowGirl said:

Shit. I'm going to Denmark next weekend for a race...will try to not look for arms and legs in the water.

Headed to Denmark next week also (business).  There goes that submarine tour of the harbor I signed up for. . .

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On 8/21/2017 at 3:17 PM, green03 said:

This raises an interesting question: under what circumstances is a burial at sea appropriate?

If you are crossing an ocean, perhaps, but surely not if you are a few hours steaming away from the nearest port? Where's the cutoff?

 

I believe there is an international format for dealing with this, based on SOLAS convention..

Quote

 Under SOLAS regulation I/21 and MARPOL articles 8 and 12, each Administration undertakes to conduct an investigation into any casualty occurring to ships under its flag subject to those conventions and to supply the Organization with pertinent information concerning the findings of such investigations. Article 23 of the Load Lines Convention also requires the investigation of casualties.

 

 I seem to recall from the 'International Medical Guide for Ships 3rd edition: Including the ship’s medicine chest' that a death must be reported to the flag authorities... and the body 'should' be kept till one reaches port.  Of course.. the 'should' is in the case that one has facilities for it.  No one expects you to cut up the deceased and pack him/her into your undersized refrigerator.

 

In cases where the deceased can not be transferred to a suitable vessel, burial at sea is appropriate... with appropriate methods.  Hacking to bits is NOT on the suggested list as far as I recall..  (just checked on page 354 of the above PDF it goes through steps. Hacking is not one of them.)

Quote


  • If the circumstances of death were unusual, sudden, or unknown, or if there is any possibility of criminal intent, a post-mortem examination is indispensable. You may be suspected of concealing a crime if a person is buried at sea under these circumstances:

    • ●  to preserve the body for examination put it in a body bag and then in a refrigerator or cold-store;

    • ●  failing this, place the body in a bath in which you have put a large amount of ice.

  • Only if the ship is not near a port and the body cannot be kept on board because it poses a risk of infection should you proceed to burial at sea:

    • ●  seek medical advice to confirm that it is dangerous to keep the body on board and

      record this advice in the log;

    • ●  examine the body thoroughly (see below, Examining a dead body);

    • ●  if the patient’s identity is not known, look for signs that might assist in subsequent

      identification.

  • Strip the body of all clothing, without tearing or cutting any clothes:

note if there is blood on the clothing.

  • List each item of clothing briefly and note any initials or names on the garments.

  • Remove and clean any dentures and place them with the other articles to be kept for

    future examination.

  • List any papers, wallet, money, etc., that you find.

  • Dry any wet articles and put them into a plastic bag, which you should seal, label,

    and keep in a safe place for delivery to the police or to other authorities at the next port.

  • Have a witness present while you do this and have them sign all the records you make of your findings.

 

  •  

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1 hour ago, h20man said:

I believe there is an international format for dealing with this, based on SOLAS convention..

 

 I seem to recall from the 'International Medical Guide for Ships 3rd edition: Including the ship’s medicine chest' that a death must be reported to the flag authorities... and the body 'should' be kept till one reaches port.  Of course.. the 'should' is in the case that one has facilities for it.  No one expects you to cut up the deceased and pack him/her into your undersized refrigerator.

 

In cases where the deceased can not be transferred to a suitable vessel, burial at sea is appropriate... with appropriate methods.  Hacking to bits is NOT on the suggested list as far as I recall..  (just checked on page 354 of the above PDF it goes through steps. Hacking is not one of them.)

  •  

No mention of dismemberment and discharging through the torpedo tube.  Huh. . .

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26 minutes ago, bplipschitz said:

No mention of dismemberment and discharging through the torpedo tube.  Huh. . .

Absolutely No dismemberment..... after notification of flag state, and counrty who's waters the death happened in... or the body was discovered... AND ONLY IF UNABLE to take to next port a careful prescribed way of Buerial at sea it is recommended:

from the Burial at sea section (pages 357-358):

Quote

 

BURIAL AT SEA

Burial at sea should be considered a last resort; always take the body to the next port if you can. The body may be buried at sea if there is no suspicion of foul play and it is not possible to keep the body safely on board, or if the next-of-kin have so requested (be wary of agreeing to requests of this type if you cannot be sure of the cause of death).

For burial at sea, the body has traditionally been sewn into a wide sheet of canvas about 4.5 metres in length. The canvas is weighted by fire bars sewn onto it on either side of the legs below the knees. These items may not be available on a modern ship. In seeking substitutes, note that the shroud needs to be made of very strong material and the weights must be heavy enough to ensure rapid sinking and permanent submersion of the body. There should be three or four slits or openings in the material to allow decomposition gases to escape and prevent flotation due to trapped air. Burial should not take place in soundings in any part of the world.

Efforts to observe the customs of the deceased person’s religion should be made. If you are unsure of the requirements in a particular case seek advice.

To prepare the body for burial at sea:

  • lay the body on a flat surface;

  • straighten the legs and arms;

  • interlock the fingers over the thighs;

  • brush the hair clear of the forehead;

  • wash the face;

  • secure the jaw by passing a bandage under the chin and over the top of the head,

    where it may be tied or clipped;

  • place the body on an improvised platform resting on the ship’s side-rail and a

    suitable trestle or other support and cover it with a ship’s flag;

  • secure the body to the inboard edge of the platform;

  • screw wooden blocks under the platform and rest them against the ship’s side-rail in

    order to prevent the platform from sliding outboard when the inboard end is raised

    to allow the body to slide from under the flag into the sea;

  • if the ship is small and there is a heavy sea, fasten guide-rails on the platform;

  • brief the seamen assigned to the disposal that on receiving a discreet signal they should raise the inboard end of the platform to allow the body to slide from under the flag into the sea;

  • the ship’s master will notify the family that the remains were committed to the sea, indicating the longitude and latitude of the burial and, if the next-of-kin wish it, sending the flag used in the burial to the family with the personal effects of the deceased.

 

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Thanks for digging this out. His first obligation would have been to report the death; nowadays it would be rare for that to be impossible. And, if I understand the term, his entire sailing area is in "soundings" so should not qualify for burial (whether whole or in parts).

What he did was about as far as you can get from an orderly burial.

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4 hours ago, green03 said:

Thanks for digging this out. His first obligation would have been to report the death; nowadays it would be rare for that to be impossible. And, if I understand the term, his entire sailing area is in "soundings" so should not qualify for burial (whether whole or in parts).

What he did was about as far as you can get from an orderly burial.

Ok, this is so morbid....but in fact he attached metal to the torso, probably to make it sink. And media reports that he "did certain actions on the torso to make it sink", in addition.

 

Not very successfully, obviously.

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7 hours ago, NORBowGirl said:

Ok, this is so morbid....but in fact he attached metal to the torso, probably to make it sink. And media reports that he "did certain actions on the torso to make it sink", in addition.

 

Not very successfully, obviously.

And its not because he left out the ship's flag...

Morbid is about right. Seems like he confused his submarine with a crawlspace.

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It gets worse (from the BBC)...  

Quote

Swedish journalist Kim Wall died by accident after being hit by a hatch cover on board a submarine, the Danish owner of the vessel has told a court.

Peter Madsen said he had been holding the heavy hatch - but then lost his foothold and the hatch shut.

Mr Madsen, 46, then said he had tried to bury Ms Wall, who was 30, at sea and intended to commit suicide.

He claims that he DID NOT weigh down the body, nor did he dismembered her.. and contrary to some posts here, he tossed the body overboard (violation of SOLAS burial procedures) and he has no idea why just a weighted torso missing head, legs, arms popped up on shore.


 

It may have been the cold medicine he took earlier that day....

 

BTW, the prosecutors have changed the charge to murder from manslaughter.

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7 hours ago, h20man said:

It gets worse (from the BBC)...  

He claims that he DID NOT weigh down the body, nor did he dismembered her.. and contrary to some posts here, he tossed the body overboard (violation of SOLAS burial procedures) and he has no idea why just a weighted torso missing head, legs, arms popped up on shore.


 

It may have been the cold medicine he took earlier that day....

 

BTW, the prosecutors have changed the charge to murder from manslaughter.

And he didn't have a convincing explanation to how her underpants came off in the process....
Police found the underpants in the sub.

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aha... that 'minor' point was not mentioned...  I guess the underpants and head, legs, arms fell off as he 'buried' her at sea...

I see you are from Denmark... how are locals reacting to this news and his story?

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9 minutes ago, h20man said:

aha... that 'minor' point was not mentioned...  I guess the underpants and head, legs, arms fell off as he 'buried' her at sea...

I see you are from Denmark... how are locals reacting to this news and his story?

Yep, his "explanation" was that both her tights (also in the sub) and underpants just slipped off when he hauled her up through the Tower and hatch...
Not very likely in my experience... :rolleyes::D

Well at first most were just awestruck, and until the torso was found, he still had quite a fan-base.
They seemed to have vanished by now, and most people just want to see him behind bars for many many years I think.

What I find most disturbing is to watch him when he first came in from the "rescue" talking to the press.
So calm and at ease, like nothing had happened. That makes me think that he is capabale of anything ... :unsure:

Edited by ModernViking
spelling

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2 minutes ago, ModernViking said:

Yep, his "explanation" was that both her tights (also in the sub) and underpants just slipped off when he hauled her up through the Tower and hatch...
Not very likely in my experience... :rolleyes::D

Well at first most were just awestruck, and until the torso was found, he still had quite a fan-base.
They seemed to have vanished by now, and most people just want to see him behind bars for many many years I think.

What I find most disturbing is to watch him when he first came in from the "rescue" talking to the press.
So calm and at ease, like nothing had happened. That makes me think that he is capabale of anything ... :unsure:

Stunning indeed.. I was stunned when someone here posted photos with his fingernails enlarged... and remnants of redish marks visible...  Horrifying... One wonders how he thinks he can get away with such a story...

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9 minutes ago, h20man said:

Stunning indeed.. I was stunned when someone here posted photos with his fingernails enlarged... and remnants of redish marks visible...  Horrifying... One wonders how he thinks he can get away with such a story...

Yes, I think that is all about his character... He is used to getting his will, and people believing and following him (blindly).

What I also don't understand is why he sticks to the obvious lie, that he did not dismember her. I mean, it is clearly a lie, i.e. that no one can believe any of the other stuff he claims.
The police has stated, that it is without doubt that the limbs were dismembered on purpose by a person, and not the result of an accident or a propeller. (How that would happen anyway with such precision).
 

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1 minute ago, ModernViking said:

Yes, I think that is all about his character... He is used to getting his will, and people believing and following him (blindly).

What I also don't understand is why he sticks to the obvious lie, that he did not dismember her. I mean, it is clearly a lie, i.e. that no one can believe any of the other stuff he claims.
The police has stated, that it is without doubt that the limbs were dismembered on purpose by a person, and not the result of an accident or a propeller. (How that would happen anyway with such precision).
 

He could be thinking that someone else found the body.. and dismembered it...  or.. he is really crazy... and this is a perfect way to 'prove' it, and thus allowing himself to be 'cured' and released early....

 

Odd and tragic.

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3 minutes ago, h20man said:

Odd and tragic.

Very Dark... sadly she mis-understood him when he asked her if she would like to be his "Sub": partner.... prison life should take care of it...someone might end up ripping his heart out with a dull spoon in some kind of ritual sacrafice , some Nordics can be pretty satanic  I've been told

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6 minutes ago, captpiratedog said:

Very Dark... sadly she mis-understood him when he asked her if she would like to be his "Sub": partner.... prison life should take care of it...someone might end up ripping his heart out with a dull spoon in some kind of ritual sacrafice , some Nordics can be pretty satanic  I've been told

Actually, from what I understand, the prison system in the Nordics is most pleasant, intent on rehabilitation, not incarceration....

so no shiv or 'prison justice'

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7 minutes ago, h20man said:

Actually, from what I understand, the prison system in the Nordics is most pleasant, intent on rehabilitation, not incarceration....

so no shiv or 'prison justice'

Naaah not entirely. A lot of myths about that too
If you molest children or women, you should not expect the guards to watch out for you in prison.


A couple of weeks ago Madsen chose to voluntarily be isolated in prison. Was probably feeling the heat....

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6 hours ago, ModernViking said:

Naaah not entirely. A lot of myths about that too
If you molest children or women, you should not expect the guards to watch out for you in prison.


A couple of weeks ago Madsen chose to voluntarily be isolated in prison. Was probably feeling the heat....

Thanks for the actual facts.... 

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7 hours ago, ModernViking said:

Naaah not entirely. A lot of myths about that too
If you molest children or women, you should not expect the guards to watch out for you in prison.


A couple of weeks ago Madsen chose to voluntarily be isolated in prison. Was probably feeling the heat....

Viking:

Where are you getting your news? You are getting info I cannot see anywhere.

 I have been following stories about the sub for about 5 years so this latest twist was kind of a shock.

Thanks, Godzilla 

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3 hours ago, Godzilla said:

Viking:

Where are you getting your news? You are getting info I cannot see anywhere.

 I have been following stories about the sub for about 5 years so this latest twist was kind of a shock.

Thanks, Godzilla 

From the local media here in Denmark.
"Ekstrabladet" eb.dk is the probably the best source for this "event"
But the info I have posted here can be found on all major danish news sites.

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....and meanwhile on the other side of the orange some sick fuck guns down hundreds and killing 60 odd. How long is it going to take for the world to understand the soft cock Kumbaya approach is being taken advantage of by those who are unhinged and with evil in their minds.

 

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3 hours ago, mad said:

There is a little detail that was not mentioned in the article.
In the previous court hearing, the police asked for permisson to acces this computer.
Peter Madsen said that he would only agree to this if he was present during this investigation, since he had some very sensitive business documents on that computer.
Well the court was not interested in that and granted the police access.
Now that they found this, he claims that the computer was just a shared computer that everyone had acces to .....
 

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

....and meanwhile on the other side of the orange some sick fuck guns down hundreds and killing 60 odd. How long is it going to take for the world to understand the soft cock Kumbaya approach is being taken advantage of by those who are unhinged and with evil in their minds.

 

Unfortunately, both of these were only discovered after the fact. It's highly unlikely that either would have been discovered prior to the event. 

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Was just over there and couldn't find anyone who knew that much about it. Just sick all around....

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Breaking news!
The police have found and examined the head and legs of the poor woman.
The scull is not fractured and have only minor damage, so that does not correspond with the story of our submarine-captain.

I wonder if he is ready to surface now?
 

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On 07/10/2017 at 4:41 PM, ModernViking said:

Breaking news!
The police have found and examined the head and legs of the poor woman.
The scull is not fractured and have only minor damage, so that does not correspond with the story of our submarine-captain.

I wonder if he is ready to surface now?
 

 I hear they also found a knife http://reut.tv/2y68jTw

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