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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Rubadub1

OUTSIDE INSIDE THE CIRCLE

104 posts in this topic

So i was leeward and slowly being overtaken on a downwind leg. 15 lengths from the mark i dropped the chute and moved to close hall calling 2 boats up on windward. the closest hailed the farthest to go up he was being pressed by me. i recalled go up as we were closer to entering the circle. They did not go up.   i then hailed protest windward leeward .  the first fell off filling the chute and rounded first. the outer boat kept sailing to the mark. i hollered no room and rounded before him cutting him off at the mark. after rounding i re hailed protest to both boats and launched my flag.

my protest argument would be, windward leeward plus overtaking boats on windward side can be taken up. i was protecting my mark rounding position. My second argument would be boats not doing turns at the earliest available time. no boats were near us. my third argument would be a boat that fouls and gains advantage because of that foul should disqualify themselves. thats why i gave no mark room to the outer boat.

i ended up beating both boats so I did not follow through with the protest as it would not affect results.

it gets worse. at the club the closest skipper was agitated saying we were in the circle. wasnt even close. he never asked for overlap rights and hailed the outer boat to go up?

he made me feel very unwelcome.

the next day at the docks the second skipper walked past. i said hello and smiled but was greeted with a dagger like stare. i turned to him and asked are you upset with me? H he turned and said you Fn cut me off at the mark. turned and walked away. i called out do you want to discuss it.  he turned walked back very pissed put his nose up to mine and yelled i should fn learn how to sail with the harbour looking on. he turned and walked away. i called his name twice to get him to come back and was greeted with the finger. Stupidly i yelled out your a baby. if your going to race stop being a baby.

Now im thinking of asking our fleet captain sail to invoke rule 69.  i have been victimized many times at our club by this type of behavior and am tired of it.

? am I wrong? if yes I will apologize and disqualify my results? what do you all think? specifically if a foul outside the circle continues into the circle do mark rounding rules still come into effect? with the offending boats.

thanks fore your thoughts.

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HTFU Nancy. Keep rule 69 stuff for on the water. On the dock incident...just report it to your Board of Directors at the same time you hand in your man card.

Post a diagram of the incident as your description is convoluted.

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I think you are saying that it was OK for you to break 18.2 because the other boat broke rule 11.  I don't see anywhere in the rules where it allows you to break a rule because another boat fouled unless you were compelled to break a rule because of the action of the other boat, which I don't think was the case here.

If I am reading you correctly, what happened was the other boat broke rule 11 then you broke rule 18.2.  Then you raised your protest flag.

That said, the other sailors should have protested you and you buy each other drinks.

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It does sound like on the run one or both of the windward boats broke Rule 11. Since they overtook you Rule 17 did not apply, you had no obligation to remain at or below your proper course and could take them up to head to wind if you chose. No hails were required, they were required to observe your movements and keep clear. If you hailed protest  and displayed your flag at that point and they didn't do penalty turns, if you'd pressed the protest they probably would have been DSQ. Rule 44.1, a protested boat "may take a Two-Turns penalty" but can choose not to do penalty turns at all, that's not a violation. If they choose to do turns they must do it as soon after the incident as possible,so if they had waited the PC could have found that the late turns didn't satisfy Rule 44 and they might still be DSQ.

As ROW boat you can only protect your position by taking the other boats up until you reach the zone around the mark. If an overlap exists when the first boat enters the zone, leeward boat is still ROW but owes mark room to inside overlapped boats under Rule 18.2. Sounds like you broke 18.2.  If you had pressed that protest, you probably would have wound up DSQ.

Better course of action to protect the inside at the mark rounding might have been to come up  earlier and get the inside track to weather of the other boats before they overtook you--make them pass you to leeward. In that case they'd have had leeward ROW but (assuming they overtook within two boat lengths to leeward) would have been subject to Rule 17, not able to take you above their proper course, and you'd have been owed mark room by them (assuming you still had overlap at the zone).

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Thanks Plumber. in the past I would have responded just short of putting the guy in the water. But people didn't seem to like it when I did that and i got labelled the ahole. Also my trawler yacht is on the same dock theirs families around, i WOULD THINK rule 69 does apply. Trust me no one thinks of me as a nancy. But i hate reporting to other bodies too because others will say BS TO THAT.  

allene222  thanks for you input. could you further consider... and reply...22.2 a boat taking a penalty shall keep clear of one that is not.  

44.1 Taking a Penalty
 
A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken one or more rules of Part 2 in an incident while racing. She may take a One-Turn Penalty when she may have broken rule 31. Alternatively, sailing instructions may specify the use of the Scoring Penalty or some other penalty, in which case the specified penalty shall replace the One-Turn and the Two-Turns Penalty. However,
  1. when a boat may have broken a rule of Part 2 and rule 31 in the same incident she need not take the penalty for breaking rule 31;
  2. if the boat caused injury or serious damage or, despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.
44.2
One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties
 
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe.

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TJSoCAL: thanks.  the problem I was having was the most windward boat was not responding outside the circle or to the protest, i was trying to get to the inside before the circle  but could not. this continued into the circle. this is why I am wondering if I would have been exonerated over 18,2. he did not respond and had a clear advantage and would have been able to cover me on the windward leg up. thats why i feel 44.1 would apply. please respond. i would like your opinion on the 69 incident too. thanks

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First time posting here but from the second green boat turned all those boats on the inside look like they automatically became overlapped and  then just gave them right for room. But it is hard to tell because only one boat has 2 arrows and not sure position of boats when entering the circle.

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Hi Chris walter. the initial call to go up occurred outside the circle. Second green arrow. yellow tried to respond calling black to go up. black just kept sailing their course. I hailed windward  leeward go up again a second time. no response. I then hailed protest. this all occurred outside the circle. Yellow refilled their luffed chute and led to the mark. black just kept going straight the whole time. later in the club yellow claimed it all happened in the circle yet had called black up and did not ask me for mark room?.  Black is just an ahole and will not listen to anything yelling at me for all to hear at the docks i need to fn learn how to sail .  i have raced for 20 years 7 in the very competitive and large one design fleet. He has sailed 3 years in the fleet only. i have launched 5 protests and won all in my 20 years. i have never been protested and lost, i have taken 3 sets of penalty turns.

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4 hours ago, Rubadub1 said:

TJSoCAL: thanks.  the problem I was having was the most windward boat was not responding outside the circle or to the protest, i was trying to get to the inside before the circle  but could not. this continued into the circle. this is why I am wondering if I would have been exonerated over 18,2. he did not respond and had a clear advantage and would have been able to cover me on the windward leg up. thats why i feel 44.1 would apply. please respond. i would like your opinion on the 69 incident too. thanks

Once one of you reached the zone the inside overlapped boat was owed mark room. His earlier breach of rule 11 would not exonerate you. Your remedy would have been to press the rule 11 protest. 

Rule 44 gives a boat the option of taking penalty turns but does not require it. Again, if you wanted him penalized you could have pressed your protest. 

I'll refrain from commenting on potential rule 69 issues. 

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Also in your diagram - I take it you protested Yellow for failing to come up, which I think was correct. Yellow broke rule 11, but was forced to as a result of Black failing to keep clear of Yellow so Yellow would be exonerated and Black would be penalized.

Separately, Green totally broke rule 18 by failing to give Black mark room, with no exonerating circumstance.  

In none of this was there any requirement for any hail, except for "protest". 

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And rule 44.1B states you must resign if your foul gives you a clear advantage? A lead sloop on a windward leg just has to cover to maintain the lead. Pretty significant I'd say.

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2 hours ago, Rubadub1 said:

And rule 44.1B states you must resign if your foul gives you a clear advantage? A lead sloop on a windward leg just has to cover to maintain the lead. Pretty significant I'd say.

First off, it says if the fouling boat gained a clear advantage despite taking a penalty.  Had they taken a penalty, there is very little chance their W/L foul would have given Black an advantage.

Second, how did Black gain a clear advantage if you shoved them to the wrong side of the mark and they had to circle back behind you in order to round the mark?

On the other hand, I would ask if you didn't gain a clear advantage (having forced Black to waste a lot of time circling back) with what looks like a pretty plain mark-room foul on your part.

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If they for whatever reason felt they hadn't fouled they were free to continue the race and take their chances in the room. Again, if you wanted satisfaction you should have filed your protest. 

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9 hours ago, Rubadub1 said:

allene222  thanks for you input. could you further consider... and reply...22.2 a boat taking a penalty shall keep clear of one that is not.  

The other boat was not taking a penalty turn so I don't think that applies.  

9 hours ago, Rubadub1 said:
? am I wrong? if yes I will apologize and disqualify my results? what do you all think?

I think you were wrong.

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19 hours ago, Rubadub1 said:

Thanks Plumber. in the past I would have responded just short of putting the guy in the water. But people didn't seem to like it when I did that and i got labelled the ahole. Also my trawler yacht is on the same dock theirs families around, i WOULD THINK rule 69 does apply. Trust me no one thinks of me as a nancy. But i hate reporting to other bodies too because others will say BS TO THAT.  

Fair enough. I've tried instigating a rule 69 procedure before, and it's not easy. Context : Club racing with one design start where a phrf  non one-design insisted on starting and racing with the one design fleet. All I say, is that it's easier to bring this to your YC board attention so this individual gets sanctionned. Apart from clear breach of conduct in an interantional event, it's difficult for a protest committee to take sanctions under this rule. Having said that, the dude certainly deserves it. 

Also, I concur with 222. I believe you were in the wrong.

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 "Should I protest or simply hold my breath until my face turns blue"

Here is the situation. 15 boat lengths from the leeward mark (if 30 foot boats that is 150 yards) I drop the kite and try and take everybody to the moon, just to be a dick because they were going to roll me. Now one of the guys wouldn't even come up, might have been mumbling something about proper course,  and the other calls me a dick when back in the marina. Even though I have been called a dick many times in the past, I assure you I am no pushover and wish to take this to the national authority under a rule 69 because I want to be respected by my peers. Sure it was just a laid back  club race but I won't allow these people to continue to call me a dick, whether true or not!

Does this sound about right ducky???

 

 

 

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How does rule 17 not apply here?

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Colours used as shown in diagram.

B(lack), overlapped to windward on the same tack, does not keep clear of Y(ellow).  B breaks rule 11.

Y, overlapped to windward on the same tack, does not keep clear of G(reen).  Y breaks rule 11, but is exonerated by rule 64.1( a ) because she was compelled to break rule 11 by B breaking rule 11.

G, overlapped outside when the first of them reached the zone, did not give mark-room to B.  G broke rule 18.2( b ).

G hailed protest and displayed a red flag after she had rounded the mark.  While the display of the red flag may have been at the first reasonable opportunity (US Sailing Appeal 82), Appeal 82 applies to the display of the red flag only.  The delay between the time of the rule 11 incident before reaching the zone, and the hail of protest after G rounded the mark, is not a hail at the first reasonable opportunity.  If G had delivered a written protest, a protest committee would have concluded that the protest was invalid and closed the hearing in accordance with rules 61.1( a ), and 63.5.

No boat took a rule 44 penalty at the time of the incident.  Rule 22.2 does not apply.

After the race, the skipper of Y claimed that when the rule 11 incident occurred, they were in the zone.  If that was the case, Y was entitled to mark-room, and exoneration by rule 21 if they broke rule 11.

The following day, the skipper of G spoke to the skipper of B.

·         The skipper of B said that G had cut them off at the mark, using one rude word, and attempted to terminate the conversation.

·         The skipper of G continued the conversation.

·         The skipper of B said that the skipper of G should learn to sail, in a loud voice and again attempted to terminate the conversation by walking away..

·         The skipper of G attempted to go on with the conversation, shouting at the skipper of B.

·         The skipper of B made a rude gesture.

·         The skipper of G then shouted insulting remarks at the skipper of B.

If a report alleging misconduct under rule 69 was made to a protest committee, G’s skipper should consider himself lucky if they decided not to call a hearing

 

If there had bee a valid protest covering both the rule 11 incident and the rule 18.2 incident, then, if the rule 11 incident indeed happened outside the zone, the protest committee should have disqualified B for breaking rule 11 and G for breaking rule 18.2.  There is no provision in the rules for a protest committee to 'offset' penalties (as Match racing umpires may do).

However, as there was no valid protest, G might regard the two breaches as 'tit for tat':  B does not retire, and G does not retire.

Unless and until there is a hearing of a valid protest, it's nobodies business but their own if boats are alleged to have broken rules

 

As Allen suggested G would do well to mend some fences and get together with B and Y and all buy each other drinks.

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9 minutes ago, WoobaGooba said:

How does rule 17 not apply here?

 

20 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

Since they overtook you [to windward] Rule 17 did not apply, you had no obligation to remain at or below your proper course and could take them up to head to wind if you chose.

 

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BRASS. Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately you missed the part that I called for both boats to go up 15 lengths before the mark 2x. I then hailed protest well outside the mark for all to hear. At the dock there is no excuse to take hard feelings off the water swear where 5 and 7 year old little girls play on their parents boat. I was nicely trying to explain my thoughts and as to why I sailed as I did. Anyone that gets that upset over a club race is a baby.

As to the rules, I now do agree I should have given mark room. But I am confused as to why 44.1b exists? In tight one design racing,(we currently have the reigning world champion in our fleet), that rounding could have been the difference between a 4th. And a 6th. 

To me it's a flaw in the rules when someone can clearly foul you outside the circle ignore penalty turns continue to foul you then gain a clear advantage at the mark rounding. Then when I should be eating a hamburger and drinking a beer I'm instead filling out paper work and playing lawyer to a bunch of people who wish they were eating burgers and drinking beer too. 

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What Bass is likely to say is that you didn't display the protest flag at the first opportunity.  Yelling protest is insufficient.

Rule 44.1, as had been said, the language about obtaining a significant advantage only applies if the boat had taken penalty turns, which didn't happen.

You can find this by Googling "rrs 44.1" but here it is for you (I made the relevant part bold so it is easy for you do see).

(b) if the boat caused injury or serious damage or despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

 

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Alene22 thanks for clarifying 44.1b. I still think it's a flaw that a gross foul of the most basic rule rule 11 ends up this way. What I have learned from you all... black and yellow are fairly new to new skippers. I will in the future stay away from them. There heading to the mark would have caused them to virtually stall their boats around the mark. I should have stayed away and rounded faster leaving them in my wake. As to the dock incident I am still pissed. Not sure what I am going to do? Thanks everyone for being so informative. I really appreciate it. 

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8 hours ago, Rubadub1 said:

BRASS. Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately you missed the part that I called for both boats to go up 15 lengths before the mark 2x. I then hailed protest well outside the mark for all to hear.

Yes, I missed that, sorry.

That being the case, had you delivered a timely written protest, the protest committee might have given you the benefit of Appeal 82 and hear the protest.

8 hours ago, Rubadub1 said:

To me it's a flaw in the rules when someone can clearly foul you outside the circle ignore penalty turns continue to foul you then gain a clear advantage at the mark rounding.

There is no flaw in the rules.

Sailing is a self-policing sport.

If YOU think a boat has broken a rule and should be penalised, YOU should:

  • hail protest and display a red flag at the first reasonable opportunity;
  • deliver a timely written protest;  and
  • attend the protest hearing, and bring all necessary evidence and argument, so that the protest can be decided.

THAT's the game.

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Rule 44 exists to give a protested boat the option of taking a penalty on the water, short of retirement or facing disqualification. They chose not to take that option and chose not to retire. They chose to take the risk of DSQ. 

You chose not to file your protest so maybe stop complaining about their choice. Especially since their subsequent choice not to protest you for a blatant violation at the mark was probably the difference for you between DSQ and wherever you wound up placing.

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8 hours ago, Rubadub1 said:

black and yellow are fairly new to new skippers. I will in the future stay away from them.

So looks like B and Y didn't understand the tactics of taking boats to windward of a mark.  You put a (fairly standard) move on them that they did not expect or understand.

 

8 hours ago, Rubadub1 said:

(we currently have the reigning world champion in our fleet),

If you can't get on good relations with these fellow competitors and explain it yourself, maybe you could get one of the well-regarded 'elder statesmen' in your fleet to do so.

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8 hours ago, Rubadub1 said:

Alene22 thanks for clarifying 44.1b. I still think it's a flaw that a gross foul of the most basic rule rule 11 ends up this way. What I have learned from you all... black and yellow are fairly new to new skippers. I will in the future stay away from them. There heading to the mark would have caused them to virtually stall their boats around the mark. I should have stayed away and rounded faster leaving them in my wake. As to the dock incident I am still pissed. Not sure what I am going to do? Thanks everyone for being so informative. I really appreciate it. 

Keeping away from skippers who don't know/follow the rules is a good idea, whether they are newbies or not.

Having one boat break a rule is not an excuse for you to break a rule.

I would recommend Dave Perry's explain-the-rules book, and next time you get in a dispute on the water, protest them properly and follow thru. It will benefit the fleet you race in. Protests and protest hearings are how the rules are enforced, and without rules there cannot be any sport.

FB- Doug

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What Brass said below is spot on-

In the first incident - If Green protests Yellow, Yellow needs to Protest Black if Black does not keep clear to keep their nose clean.  It is all a mute point though since you did not pull the flag immediately (you cannot go find it down below when finished rounding).  If you were spot on with the protest procedure and Yellow followed suit, Black gets the penalty but you still get rolled by Yellow assuming they were clear ahead enough to not foul you when "re-filling" their chute (or you did not re-attack) once Black slowed.  You put yourself in a tough position that simply did not work out as you had expected - and if done properly - you should have gone through with the protest so everyone could learn from it.  I would say buy beers to discuss it instead of protesting - but it seems you were pretty aggressive with the 2nd attack of Black while he was already down.

 

On 8/13/2017 at 9:14 AM, Brass said:

B(lack), overlapped to windward on the same tack, does not keep clear of Y(ellow).  B breaks rule 11.

Y, overlapped to windward on the same tack, does not keep clear of G(reen).  Y breaks rule 11, but is exonerated by rule 64.1( a ) because she was compelled to break rule 11 by B breaking rule 11.

G, overlapped outside when the first of them reached the zone, did not give mark-room to B.  G broke rule 18.2( b ).

G hailed protest and displayed a red flag after she had rounded the mark.  While the display of the red flag may have been at the first reasonable opportunity (US Sailing Appeal 82), Appeal 82 applies to the display of the red flag only.  The delay between the time of the rule 11 incident before reaching the zone, and the hail of protest after G rounded the mark, is not a hail at the first reasonable opportunity.  If G had delivered a written protest, a protest committee would have concluded that the protest was invalid and closed the hearing in accordance with rules 61.1( a ), and 63.5.

 

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2 hours ago, Stiletto said:

What Brass said below is spot on-

In the first incident - If Green protests Yellow, Yellow needs to Protest Black if Black does not keep clear to keep their nose clean.  It is all a mute point though since you did not pull the flag immediately (you cannot go find it down below when finished rounding).  If you were spot on with the protest procedure and Yellow followed suit, Black gets the penalty but you still get rolled by Yellow assuming they were clear ahead enough to not foul you when "re-filling" their chute (or you did not re-attack) once Black slowed.  You put yourself in a tough position that simply did not work out as you had expected - and if done properly - you should have gone through with the protest so everyone could learn from it.  I would say buy beers to discuss it instead of protesting - but it seems you were pretty aggressive with the 2nd attack of Black while he was already down.

 

On 8/13/2017 at 11:14 PM, Brass said:

B(lack), overlapped to windward on the same tack, does not keep clear of Y(ellow).  B breaks rule 11.

Y, overlapped to windward on the same tack, does not keep clear of G(reen).  Y breaks rule 11, but is exonerated by rule 64.1( a ) because she was compelled to break rule 11 by B breaking rule 11.

G, overlapped outside when the first of them reached the zone, did not give mark-room to B.  G broke rule 18.2( b ).

G hailed protest and displayed a red flag after she had rounded the mark.  While the display of the red flag may have been at the first reasonable opportunity (US Sailing Appeal 82), Appeal 82 applies to the display of the red flag only.  The delay between the time of the rule 11 incident before reaching the zone, and the hail of protest after G rounded the mark, is not a hail at the first reasonable opportunity.  If G had delivered a written protest, a protest committee would have concluded that the protest was invalid and closed the hearing in accordance with rules 61.1( a ), and 63.5.

 

Last paragraph of the quote of my post is NOT correct.  OP stated that he hailed protest at the time of the rule 11 incident (see Posts 1, 22 and 25).

Agree that Y would be well advised to protest B.  If it came to a hearing of a protest by G against Y, Y could not be sure that the protest committee would exercise its discretion to protest B under rule 60.3( a )(2).

Rule 61.1 (a ) does NOT require protesting boats to display a red flag 'immediately':  only at the 'first reasonable opportunity'.  US Sailing Appeal 82 provides an example of when delaying the display of the flag until after rounding and hoisting a spinnaker is reasonable.

In this case, it is arguable that at the time of the rule 11 incident, all crew would not have been fully occupied in sailing the boat to advantage, and that there WAS reasonable opportunity to display the flag before the mark.  That would be for a protest committee to decide.

Given that G beat both B and Y at the finish, and there was no sign of a valid protest against G, then G's decision not to follow through on her protest was quite logical.

Yes, G should try to improve relations with B and Y.  As noted before, G put a fairly routine move on two boats who were less experienced, and didn't respond as they should have.  G didn't 'teach them a lesson' by formally protesting, but that's G's business'

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39 minutes ago, Brass said:

Last paragraph of the quote of my post is NOT correct.  OP stated that he hailed protest at the time of the rule 11 incident (see Posts 1, 22 and 25).

Agree that Y would be well advised to protest B.  If it came to a hearing of a protest by G against Y, Y could not be sure that the protest committee would exercise its discretion to protest B under rule 60.3( a )(2).

Rule 61.1 (a ) does NOT require protesting boats to display a red flag 'immediately':  only at the 'first reasonable opportunity'.  US Sailing Appeal 82 provides an example of when delaying the display of the flag until after rounding and hoisting a spinnaker is reasonable.

In this case, it is arguable that at the time of the rule 11 incident, all crew would not have been fully occupied in sailing the boat to advantage, and that there WAS reasonable opportunity to display the flag before the mark.  That would be for a protest committee to decide.

Given that G beat both B and Y at the finish, and there was no sign of a valid protest against G, then G's decision not to follow through on her protest was quite logical.

Yes, G should try to improve relations with B and Y.  As noted before, G put a fairly routine move on two boats who were less experienced, and didn't respond as they should have.  G didn't 'teach them a lesson' by formally protesting, but that's G's business'

Assuming that Y and B's failure to keep clear was a result of a misunderstanding of the rules and not some other reason, the lesson could have been taught just as effectively as a discussion over beers rather than a formal protest. But that conversation would best have been started with an apology by G for cutting B off at the mark, which was not a legal move (something that G, a "more experienced racer" appears not to have understood at the time of the incident).

Question: If the Rule 11 breach by Y & B and the Rule 18.2 breach by G were two separate incidents, had G pressed the protest for Rule 11, could the PC have disqualified G over 18.2? Or would there have to have been a valid protest of the second incident?

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5 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Assuming that Y and B's failure to keep clear was a result of a misunderstanding of the rules and not some other reason, the lesson could have been taught just as effectively as a discussion over beers rather than a formal protest. But that conversation would best have been started with an apology by G for cutting B off at the mark, which was not a legal move (something that G, a "more experienced racer" appears not to have understood at the time of the incident).

Raking over rules disputes while drinking alcohol is rarely useful.

Either have a rules discussion OR have a few beers.

If G 'apologises' to B for cutting B off at the mark, this will likely be an admission that G broke a rule and knows she broke a rule.  If G does not retire, this is putting G right in rule 2 territory.

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21 minutes ago, Brass said:

Raking over rules disputes while drinking alcohol is rarely useful.

Either have a rules discussion OR have a few beers.

If G 'apologises' to B for cutting B off at the mark, this will likely be an admission that G broke a rule and knows she broke a rule.  If G does not retire, this is putting G right in rule 2 territory.

It tends to work OK in the crowds I sail with, as long as neither party are jerks about it. Especially if the offending parties are new and their error was due to a lack of understanding, a conversation that starts with "you know you were supposed to keep clear of me..." and goes on to explain why would be more useful than a protest, and a reasonable offender would respond with "Oh, OK, sorry. Thanks for explaining and I'll know better next time".

Seems to me that dragging newbies into the room every time they unknowingly infringe a rule would be a good, quick way to drive them out of racing. I don't disagree with the value of lodging formal protests when it's warranted, but I do believe there's a principle of proportional response.

I believe at some point in this thread the OP stated that if he was wrong (and it appears he is now convinced he was) he would retire.

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51 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Question: If the Rule 11 breach by Y & B and the Rule 18.2 breach by G were two separate incidents, had G pressed the protest for Rule 11, could the PC have disqualified G over 18.2? Or would there have to have been a valid protest of the second incident?

You've pretty much answered your own question.

If there were two separate incidents, Case 80 says 'A hearing of a protest or a request for redress must be limited to the alleged incident',

Principle is One incident, one protest, one penalty.

Whether there were two incidents or one may be arguable.  US Sailing Appeal 65 says The test of whether two occurrences were one or two incidents is whether the second occurrence was the inevitable result of the first. Note that outside the USA the test is less stringent, for example the RYA Appeal 2003/3 says If there is a causal link between a series of collisions, they may be regarded as a single incident

Much would turn on facts found.

  • G is claiming that there were rule 11 incidents 15 to 10 boat lengths from the mark:  that's well and truly separate from a mark-room incident.
  • Y claimed, and B would probably claim that the rule 11 incident occurred at the zone, or at any rate much nearer the zone:  that's looking like a single incident.

If the protest committee thought that it was two incidents, then it could, and probably should, protest G in accordance with rules 60.3( a )(2) and 61.1( c ), which results in the two protests being heard together, although they are still separate protests and a boat could be penalised as a result of each protest.

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I really appreciate everyones input.  i am aware and usually very intelligent about using rules.  the more experienced racers in my one design fleet have taught me you can win the battle but lose the war. my confusion was around rule 44.1b. i thought at the time yellow and black should be forced to retire because they had gained clear advantage by not going up when i pushed them(they were still flying chutes while i had dropped mine and was under headsail.) if they had gone up they would have been a tangled mess of chute and i would have been long gone to the mark.  THIS WAS MY MISTAKE IN UNDERSTANDING.  i DID NOT PROTEST as i beat them anyway and tried to talk it over with a beer at the club with yellow. he was agitated that i was going to protest him. it was the NEXT  DAY AT THE DOCKS that BLACK YELLED AND SWORE at me, when I tried to talk to him about it.  

This combined with many other Yacht Club racing and otherwise BS is starting to make me feel its time to sell my one design boat and get out of racing.  I am hoping you will all provide me with your club experiences (general not specific).  My club has some nice people!  But the club is very cliquey, phrfers hate one designers old hates new sexual affairs cause walls ,back talking and outside our community members have a rep. as being drunks. on the good side we are an original over 200 year old club, run by volunteers, and have a vibrant racing group and strong junior sailing program.

My next post will be ARE CLUB RACERS AT BEST HARD TO GET ALONG WITH, AT WORST AHOLES?

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Rubadub seems to me to be in the wrong here, but I have to wonder if the protest system is failing. I have only been to a protest hearing once, and that was as a witness despite having raced in several national competitions as well as local championships. It seems like the whole protest process is so annoying that most people instead just ignore the infractions that invariably happen on the course. This can lead to hard feelings that shouldn't exist. This happend in a race I was in last year, another sailor felt that I fouled him (there was contact) and I disagreed, he did not protest because he didn't want to go to the hearing but still felt that I had behaved ungentlemanly. I wish we would have just gone to the room so there would be a clear cut decision on who was wrong, and we could just move on.

Is there a way that we could organize protest hearings so that people would be more willing to go to the room? Perhaps we could make it into a nautical charades drinking game?

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I have been in two protests.  I filed a protest as a result of being run down and dismasted by a much larger boat.  It was a simple case as he hit me on the windward rail and was an overtaking boat.  I think there was a lot of fear of the unknown.  Thanks to SF Woody, Bass, and others, I was very prepared.  The hearing was straightforward and not at all unpleasant.  But getting there was and fear of protests seemed to have been at the club level as well.  They did not want to hold the hearing and it took me protesting to US Sailing before they scheduled the hearing.  

At our club (different club than above), which is small, protests are rare but handled largely by email with the RC Chairman being the jury.  I was involved in one protest there as well and posted on SA regarding that as the other boat tacked inside the circle, then came down on me cutting off my mark room, we became overlapped, and he finally turned to give me room and in the process hit me when his stern pivoted into my boat near the bow.  The marks were a nice way to prove overlap.  The OP protested me for not taking mark room for which I was not entitled but was found lacking, and appealed I think three times.  It was all done by email with each side presenting arguments.  There was a lot less stress and it was not disruptive of the post race evening.  It is something to consider.  After this incident, which happened before the above collision, I bought a red flag and was very happy to have it for the above incident.  I still have questions about what I should have done in this incident on the water.  Maybe I will post about it again some time with diagrams.

 

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38 minutes ago, Mizzmo said:

Rubadub seems to me to be in the wrong here, but I have to wonder if the protest system is failing. I have only been to a protest hearing once, and that was as a witness despite having raced in several national competitions as well as local championships. It seems like the whole protest process is so annoying that most people instead just ignore the infractions that invariably happen on the course. This can lead to hard feelings that shouldn't exist. This happend in a race I was in last year, another sailor felt that I fouled him (there was contact) and I disagreed, he did not protest because he didn't want to go to the hearing but still felt that I had behaved ungentlemanly. I wish we would have just gone to the room so there would be a clear cut decision on who was wrong, and we could just move on.

Is there a way that we could organize protest hearings so that people would be more willing to go to the room? Perhaps we could make it into a nautical charades drinking game?

Note that under Basic Principles, "a fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty..." Rule 44.1 applies to a boat "when she may have broken one or more rules of Part 2 in an incident while racing."

Thus the rules allow/require you to take a penalty if you believe you've broken a rule, whether you are protested or not. And hailing "protest" and displaying a flag does not require you to formally file the protest, you are free to withdraw it.

In my experience, many (maybe most) skippers are pretty good about taking penalty turns if they are protested and have good reason to believe they are in the wrong. If on-the-water infractions are not protested, they are usually discussed and resolved afterward. Most of the protest hearings I've been associated with have involved a disagreement as to whether a rule was broken or which rule (frequently due to a misunderstanding of the rules, unfortunately) and the results of the protest hearing have almost always been very instructive.

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I am always surprised at the hesitancy to use the protest system because of fear. If you are racing it is incumbent upon you to have a decent understanding of the rules (see Perry) and be prepared to adequately use those rules to protect or ensure your rights on the race course. It does not have to be contentious but obviously emotions get involved.

Have a flag ready. In pocket or already on the back stay ready to be flown immediately. Without it you cannot ensure your rights. It has been quite a few years since the rules requiring it be flown at "first opportunity" were added. You also need to be able to describe an incident clearly in precise language. Sailing has a language, use it properly. Local pidgin phrasing does not help at all.The OPs first description of the incident here was impossible to decipher...

On 8/12/2017 at 8:08 AM, Rubadub1 said:

15 lengths from the mark i dropped the chute and moved to close hall calling 2 boats up on windward. the closest hailed the farthest to go up he was being pressed by me.

What the hell does that mean? When did you alter your course? How do you know you gave room and opportunity for yellow to keep clear? I usually call boats on the radio or the phone, and keep pressing for your pants. Using clear language identified in the rules adds credibility to your version of events, in addition to effectively describing the incident.  That way when yellow says, "We were 5 boat lengths from the mark when green altered course, we immediately altered course to windward meeting our obligations to keep clear, while giving black room and opportunity to keep clear, fulfilling our obligations under rule 11. We were sailing at 5 knots, covering a 30' boat length every 5 seconds. Black had begun to keep clear in 7 seconds and 3 seconds after that yellow entered the circle at which point we were entitled to room under rule 18.2." Which verson sounds more credible?

It is part of the game we play. It does not take a huge commitment to be somewhat proficient in the rules and the appeal process. There are approaches using arbitration as a quicker alternative that also are great learning opportunities.

 

Jeez sorry, went back and read my post.. I seem like an ass but there was something about the initial post that pissed me off... bad day at black rock i guess.

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Its hard to put context in a post. And walk a mile in my shoes before you get too critical. In the i have learned a great deal from all of you so thanks a bunch. Much appreciated.

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6 hours ago, TJSoCal said:
6 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

... I have to wonder if the protest system is failing. ... It seems like the whole protest process is so annoying that most people instead just ignore the infractions that invariably happen on the course. This can lead to hard feelings that shouldn't exist.  

I would suggest that a whole bunch of referees in striped shirts, zooming around in motor boats blowing whistles would be a damn sight more annoying, as well as a lot more expensive.

As other posters have said, if used frequently and properly, there is no reason why the protest process should be 'annoying' or intimidating.  Maybe you just need to get used to the idea.

More positively, US Sailing has pushed into the RRS a suite of alternatives to the full blown protest hearing process in Appendix T.  I suggest everyone should encourage their clubs to adopt Appendix T.

This happend in a race I was in last year, another sailor felt that I fouled him (there was contact) and I disagreed, he did not protest because he didn't want to go to the hearing but still felt that I had behaved ungentlemanly.

I would suggest that people can protest or not, as they wish, but if they don't protest then they should STFU.

I wish we would have just gone to the room so there would be a clear cut decision on who was wrong, and we could just move on.

Is there a way that we could organize protest hearings so that people would be more willing to go to the room? Perhaps we could make it into a nautical charades drinking game?

Contrary to others, my experience is that rules discussions and alcohol don't mix well.

Alleging that a fellow sailor broke a rule is a serious business and should be treated seriously.  That's not to say that there's any need for undue formality or pomposity in protest hearings.

But you wouldn't expect an umpire at a baseball or basketball game to come out wearing a clown suit, or half cut, would you?

Note that under Basic Principles, "a fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty..." Rule 44.1 applies to a boat "when she may have broken one or more rules of Part 2 in an incident while racing."

Thus the rules allow/require you to take a penalty if you believe you've broken a rule, whether you are protested or not. And hailing "protest" and displaying a flag does not require you to formally file the protest, you are free to withdraw it.

Good point.

It's a two step process:

  • hail and flag on the water (which enables the protestee to take an on-water penalty if they wish);  and
  • written protest ashore if you wish.

 

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4 hours ago, Lono said:

I am always surprised at the hesitancy to use the protest system because of fear. If you are racing it is incumbent upon you to have a decent understanding of the rules (see Perry) and be prepared to adequately use those rules to protect or ensure your rights on the race course. It does not have to be contentious but obviously emotions get involved.

Have a flag ready. In pocket or already on the back stay ready to be flown immediately. Without it you cannot ensure your rights. It has been quite a few years since the rules requiring it be flown at "first opportunity" were added. You also need to be able to describe an incident clearly in precise language. Sailing has a language, use it properly. Local pidgin phrasing does not help at all.The OPs first description of the incident here was impossible to decipher...

On 8/12/2017 at 10:08 PM, Rubadub1 said:

15 lengths from the mark i dropped the chute and moved to close hall calling 2 boats up on windward. the closest hailed the farthest to go up he was being pressed by me.

What the hell does that mean? When did you alter your course? How do you know you gave room and opportunity for yellow to keep clear? I usually call boats on the radio or the phone, and keep pressing for your pants. Using clear language identified in the rules adds credibility to your version of events, in addition to effectively describing the incident.  That way when yellow says, "We were 5 boat lengths from the mark when green altered course, we immediately altered course to windward meeting our obligations to keep clear, while giving black room and opportunity to keep clear, fulfilling our obligations under rule 11. We were sailing at 5 knots, covering a 30' boat length every 5 seconds. Black had begun to keep clear in 7 seconds and 3 seconds after that yellow entered the circle at which point we were entitled to room under rule 18.2." Which verson sounds more credible?

It is part of the game we play. It does not take a huge commitment to be somewhat proficient in the rules and the appeal process. There are approaches using arbitration as a quicker alternative that also are great learning opportunities.

 

Jeez sorry, went back and read my post.. I seem like an ass but there was something about the initial post that pissed me off... bad day at black rock i guess.

Well, attitudes like this might make the protest process 'annoying'.

Certainly, it's nice for protest committees and people discussing rules to have scenarios clearly described.

Yes, its useful, when discussing the rules, to use the language of the rules accurately and completely.

But it's not helpful if, when somebody does the best they can to describe  a scenario, they are treated to a critique of their written communication skills.

It's  the business of judges and protest committee members to attend to, understand, and where necessary, by appropriate questioning, amplify the testimony of parties and witnesses, not to blame the victim because they aren't the best at fluent language and 'rules-speak'.

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"starting to make me feel its time to sell my one design boat and get out of racing. "

Given all the whining and bitching this seems like a really good idea.  I've been racing for over 30 years and cannot come close to the level of frustration you seem to have.  It's not good for the heart or blood pressure.  Find something less stressful.

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@Rubadub1 You may want to make sure folks like him know the basics of sailing first before you engage in any kind of discussion. Feel free to hand this out for the likes of him. Before any wannabe sailor ever sets foot on my boat, they gotta know this.  –Captain Gigi

...before any wannabe sailor ever sets foot on my boat.  –Captain Gigi.jpg

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11 hours ago, allene222 said:

I have been in two protests.  I filed a protest as a result of being run down and dismasted by a much larger boat.  It was a simple case as he hit me on the windward rail and was an overtaking boat.  I think there was a lot of fear of the unknown.  Thanks to SF Woody, Bass, and others, I was very prepared.  The hearing was straightforward and not at all unpleasant.  But getting there was and fear of protests seemed to have been at the club level as well.  They did not want to hold the hearing and it took me protesting to US Sailing before they scheduled the hearing.  

At our club (different club than above), which is small, protests are rare but handled largely by email with the RC Chairman being the jury.  I was involved in one protest there as well and posted on SA regarding that as the other boat tacked inside the circle, then came down on me cutting off my mark room, we became overlapped, and he finally turned to give me room and in the process hit me when his stern pivoted into my boat near the bow.  The marks were a nice way to prove overlap.  The OP protested me for not taking mark room for which I was not entitled but was found lacking, and appealed I think three times.  It was all done by email with each side presenting arguments.  There was a lot less stress and it was not disruptive of the post race evening.  It is something to consider.  After this incident, which happened before the above collision, I bought a red flag and was very happy to have it for the above incident.  I still have questions about what I should have done in this incident on the water.  Maybe I will post about it again some time with diagrams.

 

I am not sure emails are the best way to handle protests. The Protest Committee has a role in determining the facts and this is generally best done in a hearing situation where questions can be asked and discrepancies of recollection explored.

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Appreciate the note about Appendix T, it looks like it should make protest hearings a little faster. Allen made a good point about completing protests hearings remotely. A lot of the races we do on the Chesapeake bay do not have an associated meeting place afterwards, and boats disperse over 30 miles or so after the finish. Also everyone is focused on getting home on a Sunday night. It seems like arbitration via email, or maybe conference call would be ideal for these situations.

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Yeah, sorry, I was being a dick, bad day... my secretary just said i was being a dick here too... sorry

 

Sailing is supposed to be fun. Protests and the rules don't need to be a huge headache with a little preparation... maybe i should go back to the yelling at the crew thread.

 

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15 hours ago, Brass said:

Well, attitudes like this might make the protest process 'annoying'.

Certainly, it's nice for protest committees and people discussing rules to have scenarios clearly described.

Yes, its useful, when discussing the rules, to use the language of the rules accurately and completely.

But it's not helpful if, when somebody does the best they can to describe  a scenario, they are treated to a critique of their written communication skills.

It's  the business of judges and protest committee members to attend to, understand, and where necessary, by appropriate questioning, amplify the testimony of parties and witnesses, not to blame the victim because they aren't the best at fluent language and 'rules-speak'.

See above contrition... hope everyone has a good day.

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1) People don't like to protest because they don't want to go to a hearing after the race, they want to drink beer. Having it days later is even more of a pain and very inconvenient for everyone involved.  I have heard this as a reason to not protest way more times than I have seen protests.

2) Protests are a good way to teach the rules and there should be more protests. US Sailing says this in their class on the rules.

On top of this, the formal protest hearing is stressful as you need a lot of preparation and if you screw up and the decision is against you, you can't have a discussion to clarify a point that may have been missed.  You can only appeal and even then you cannot appeal the facts found.

The email protest solves these points.  It was more of a discussion.  The RC said what they thought and the parties could respond before a final decision.  For example, in my case, the protesting boat said there was no overlap and that he did no hit me.  I then went to the boats and found matching marks.  That was presented as evidence in round two.  This would be impossible in a formal hearing unless I anticipated the OP would dispute that I was hit and where.  In the end, all parties agreed on what happened and what the rules were.

I guess a lot of this comes down to what the goal of the protest process is.

1) Assign fault and disqualify the offending party

2) A learning process to teach the rules.

And that comes down to who is racing

1) Olympic caliber events where everyone knows and uses the rules to their advantage like taking boats up to make them wrap their spinnakers around their headstay.

2) Club beer can races where you want to avoid collisions.

There should be different procedures for both.  Appendix T is still too formal inho for beer can racing.

My personal opinion is that the rules are designed to make racing safer.  We need rules so that other boats are predictable.  Using a rule to cause harm to another boat just seems outside the friendly race category.  Maybe just adding a new rule for less formal racing:  Rule XX: You cannot use a rule as a weapon.

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35 minutes ago, allene222 said:

 Maybe just adding a new rule for less formal racing:  Rule XX: You cannot use a rule as a weapon.

I agree for less formal racing. In my experience though, the problems generally arise when you get a skipper who a- takes his beercan series WAY more seriously than anyone else in his fleet, or b- who has an inflated sense of how well he understands the rules and thinks he is just keeping the racing safer by imposing his "knowledge."

The self-policing nature of any race fleet should be enough to harmonize people's perceptions of how seriously they should take the competition. It would be difficult to have a "no rule as a weapon" rule without having a clause that stipulates what constitutes "formal racing." There are a handful of boats in our fleet who race pretty seriously (yet cordially) with each other. Skippers and tacticians on those few boats keep up to date with the rules and know them well, and hold each other to a different standard than other boats in the fleet (i.e. "Stay up Cap... you know better.").  It is awkward though to have multiple standards in 1 fleet. 

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OK, so I'm sitting here avoiding the work i should be doing, checking in to my flight to the boat tomorrow and writing another post on this thread. God, I hope I don't need to apologize again.

I am surprised at the attitude towards the rules and their application. I know they are confusing, and I am sure their mastery is a barrier to entry for novice sailors. That being said, they are an intrinsic part of this sport. The rules are what makes it a chess match and not just a boat speed parade. I disagree completely that the purpose for the rules is safety. Avoiding collision is certainly an important part but if that was the only objective, it could be accomplished more easily. The rules are both offensive and defensive and used as part of overall tactics and strategy to beat your opponent.

Embrace the rules, If you are unsure pick up Perry's book. He explains the rules very well and is a resource for rules based questions or discussion. Further the book of appeals is a great thing to read too. Also, as has been mentioned, if you are in the wrong do your damn turns...

I know the protest process is tough when there is not a common area for after race gathering and at a regatta everyone wants to get to the tent, but there is value in going through the process. There are also mediation programs offered that simplify the process and might be better learning opportunities. Each side tells its tale of woe to the mediator. No witnesses etc. If its a clear misunderstanding of the rules, that is pointed out and the offender has the ability to take a reduced penalty. Quick and less painful.

If you can't be bothered to learn the rules, I'm not sure what to say...

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I would suggest that people can protest or not, as they wish, but if they don't protest then they should STFU.

Once again, Brass nails it.No harm in asking for advice about a situation, as long as you're willing to come in objectively and take your lumps if it turns out you misinterpreted your situation.

allene222, I have a lot of respect for you, but I can tell you from personal experience that it only takes one prick in your club to ruin email protests for everyone. In our club, we had an email protest committee for a pretty clear cut protest. The loser appealed the decision and the first thing the appeals committee said was that we had not conducted a valid protest hearing. That meant that even before the appeal could be heard, we had to re-hear the protest. Since our appeals committee is made up of pretty much every judge in massachusetts, we had to 'import' judges from CT and RI. Then, when he lost again, he appealed. Twice. Meanwhile, I re-wrote our SI's to take into account both Appendix T and a protest system that works for a paper club and Wednesday night racing. The whole process of his protest to the final denial of his appeal took just about a year.

As to the statement that "Appendix T is still too formal for beer can racing," I suggest you try it first. I had my first taste of Appendix T at BIRW this year, and while it took a while (one PC handling 3 lines and however many classes on a penultimate day where it really mattered), the process was not overly formal. Since it only involves one person from each boat, no witnesses, and a competent arbitrator, it does exactly what it should: determine the validity of the protest and who (if anyone) is *likely* to win. Then the competitors have some choices to make. Easy-peasy. One thing that gets lost in these discussions about whether to protest or not is that protesting (or arbitration) are formalized processes for a reason - if you go through the process and lose, you at least know the process was conducted in accordance with the same RRS that brought you to protest in the first place. There's nothing binding about someone getting SA or sitting at the bar and saying if you prove me wrong I'll retire. Certainly there's no evidence the OP is going to retire, despite a pretty clear abundance of evidence that he broke a rule, and said he would if he had.

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This is so damn simple and has been said multiple times..  Throw the damn flag and file the protest... You would have gotten an answer in the room on the yellow boat and realized (just as you have today) that you were wrong to cut the guy off at the mark.   If that happened, the guy would never have yelled and the kiddies ears would still be virgin...  

 

Bottom line

Follow up and protest...  

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4 minutes ago, shaggy said:

This is so damn simple and has been said multiple times..  Throw the damn flag and file the protest... You would have gotten an answer in the room on the yellow boat and realized (just as you have today) that you were wrong to cut the guy off at the mark.   If that happened, the guy would never have yelled and the kiddies ears would still be virgin...  

 

Bottom line

Follow up and protest...  

+1 this

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Lono, I agree that the purpose of the rules is safety, but only so far as to standardize who has the right of way in any given situation. The limitation of this is that the rules only keep people safe if everyone takes the time to learn understand them. If you don't have ROW, you get the f out of the way or risk DSQ. IF you don't have a complete understanding of when and why you don't have the ROW, you are threatening the safety of others on the racecourse. 

All that being said, good racing crews will put themselves in positions where they have the ROW and avoid situations where they don't have the ROW.  Often, the problems arise with less experienced skippers who don't know the rules as well as they think they do and honestly believe they have the ROW in situations where they do not. We have flown our protest flag on two such occasions this summer. However on both of those occasions, we did not file a formal protest since we ended up beating the boats that we protested. The short term outcome is that we get to go drink beer and celebrate the win without going to the room. The long term outcome is a missed learning experience for inexperienced skippers (who go away from it still thinking they were right). Nobody in their right mind wins a race and files a protest against an 8th place boat that is not a threat in the series standings, but an email protest or mediation or education process that happens within a suitable time frame would certainly help educate. If following through on protests weren't such a pain in the ass, maybe the threat of penalty would be an incentive for less experienced crews to learn the rules faster.

 

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4 minutes ago, ajbram said:

Lono, I agree that the purpose of the rules is safety, but only so far as to standardize who has the right of way in any given situation. The limitation of this is that the rules only keep people safe if everyone takes the time to learn understand them. If you don't have ROW, you get the f out of the way or risk DSQ. IF you don't have a complete understanding of when and why you don't have the ROW, you are threatening the safety of others on the racecourse. 

All that being said, good racing crews will put themselves in positions where they have the ROW and avoid situations where they don't have the ROW.  Often, the problems arise with less experienced skippers who don't know the rules as well as they think they do and honestly believe they have the ROW in situations where they do not. We have flown our protest flag on two such occasions this summer. However on both of those occasions, we did not file a formal protest since we ended up beating the boats that we protested. The short term outcome is that we get to go drink beer and celebrate the win without going to the room. The long term outcome is a missed learning experience for inexperienced skippers (who go away from it still thinking they were right). Nobody in their right mind wins a race and files a protest against an 8th place boat that is not a threat in the series standings, but an email protest or mediation or education process that happens within a suitable time frame would certainly help educate. If following through on protests weren't such a pain in the ass, maybe the threat of penalty would be an incentive for less experienced crews to learn the rules faster.

 

AJ, what i said is that the purpose of the rules is not safety. It is to provide a framework for racing in a way that avoids contact but provides for both offensive and defensive tactical opportunities. The rules are shield and sword.

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3 minutes ago, Lono said:

AJ, what i said is that the purpose of the rules is not safety. It is to provide a framework for racing in a way that avoids contact but provides for both offensive and defensive tactical opportunities. The rules are shield and sword.

+1 Agreed...100% The safety comes from avoiding contact and knowing when you are the one who is responsible for avoiding contact... my wording in the opening bit there was a little convoluted.... Simply, the rules are for safety only in that they tell you when you should politely GTFOTW. Good crews use that to their advantage... not to try to inflict damage to a burdened vessel, but to make them GTFOTW in a safe, but strategically inconvenient fashion.

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23 minutes ago, ryley said:

In our club, we had an email protest committee for a pretty clear cut protest. The loser appealed the decision and the first thing the appeals committee said was that we had not conducted a valid protest hearing.

It would be good if US Sailing would work out the details and make an official email (or other) protest procedure.  I think it pretty obvious even from this thread that the current procedures discourage people from following through and filing a formal protest.  US Sailing says that a goal of protests is to educate the fleet.  If that is the case, fix the issue that causes people to not file them.  I will leave it to US Sailing to figure out if email is a reasonable alternative.  But I would say that any solution should 1) Not be on the day of the race and 2) Not require people to travel to a hearing. 

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On ‎08‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 5:08 AM, Rubadub1 said:

i ended up beating both boats so I did not follow through with the protest as it would not affect results.

In the entire sequence of events, this was your biggest mistake.

Firstly, it WOULD affect results. It would affect anybody who finished behind them. If those offending boats didn't adhere to the rules, as you say they didn't, then they are artificially ahead of any boat that did adhere to the rules. You should protest them just for that.

More importantly, if you perceive bad behavior on the race course, you should stop it from happening in the future. A protest hearing will reduce bad blood on the docks and at the bar as it will prove that either 1) they were wrong, they get chucked from the race, they (hopefully) say sorry, or, 2) you were wrong, you maybe get chucked from the race, but at the very least your protest is chucked, you say sorry. Bad blood gets left behind, which is a win-win for everybody.

I don't understand the reasoning among so many club racers that insist they don't want to bother to protest. I get that it's "just beer-can fun racing". I get that protests are a pain in the ass and cut into social time. But don't forget that even beer-league hockey has rules and a referee. And even beer-league slow pitch has rules and an umpire. Without rules, and a method to enforce them, you're just playing bumper boats.

Generally speaking, on a weeknight racing series, I'll give an experienced racer 1 free pass. But I use that free pass to have a polite discussion with them afterward. If they continue their poor on-water behavior next week, you bet I'm going to drag them into a protest room. Win or loose, they're going to think twice the next time they're rounding a mark behind me and want to stick their nose in when they shouldn't.

That said, don't go all protest-Nazi on the beginners trying to learn how to sail and race. After an incident with those guys, have a friendly chat about the incident afterward, and help them understand. Mostly, they'll appreciate the advice and knowledge of an experienced sailor. Also, don't go all lawyer in a protest room. Badgering, bullying etc is not cool. Explain your recollection of the event, let them explain theirs, then let the chips fall where they may.

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23 minutes ago, Nice! said:

 

But don't forget that even beer-league hockey has rules and a referee. And even beer-league slow pitch has rules and an umpire.

At the risk of sounding like a dick, I have to point out that the difference here is that refs and umps make calls on the spot in real time. You get sent to the penalty box, you strike out looking, you sit down, and life goes on. You finish the game and have a beer.  If you win, you forget about the penalty, and probably don't hold a grudge towards the ref (you shouldn't anyways).  If this is the way your brain works, it's hard to muster the energy to penalize an opponent sometimes hours after you have won the race. The reality of weeknight beercan racing is that I have already been at work for 8-10 hours, rigged the boat, raced, cleaned up and put away the boat. I've been away from my family for 16-ish hours. All I want is to have a couple beers and go home. I do feel bad that a boat that should have taken a DSQ for fouling us occasionally finishes ahead of a boat that sailed within the rules, but I don't relish being put in the position of being responsible for educating skippers in the wrong or policing the rights of every boat behind us in the fleet. 

Our current program is fairly high-tech and we carry a masthead camera as well as one on the end of the boom. We haven't put the footage to use in a protest hearing yet, but it should expedite the process. 

 

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11 minutes ago, ajbram said:

 

At the risk of sounding like a dick, I have to point out that the difference here is that refs and umps make calls on the spot in real time. You get sent to the penalty box, you strike out looking, you sit down, and life goes on. You finish the game and have a beer.  If you win, you forget about the penalty, and probably don't hold a grudge towards the ref (you shouldn't anyways).  If this is the way your brain works, it's hard to muster the energy to penalize an opponent sometimes hours after you have won the race. The reality of weeknight beercan racing is that I have already been at work for 8-10 hours, rigged the boat, raced, cleaned up and put away the boat. I've been away from my family for 16-ish hours. All I want is to have a couple beers and go home. I do feel bad that a boat that should have taken a DSQ for fouling us occasionally finishes ahead of a boat that sailed within the rules, but I don't relish being put in the position of being responsible for educating skippers in the wrong or policing the rights of every boat behind us in the fleet. 

Our current program is fairly high-tech and we carry a masthead camera as well as one on the end of the boom. We haven't put the footage to use in a protest hearing yet, but it should expedite the process. 

 

Funny.  A real protest jury probably won't look at your video.  They wouldn't even look at my photos.  For those of you who have not seen the gif I put together of the photos taken of the incident I formally protested HERE it is.  The jury was not interested in the photos.

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1 minute ago, allene222 said:

Funny.  A real protest jury probably won't look at your video.  They wouldn't even look at my photos.  For those of you who have not seen the gif I put together of the photos taken of the incident I formally protested HERE it is.  The jury was not interested in the photos.

Wow Allen... that looks pretty clear cut to me... was everyone ok? Sorry to see that carnage. Photos/video can clear up otherwise subjective memories. I know of some PCs that like them and others that disregard them. I guess it depends on the club.

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14 minutes ago, ajbram said:

 

At the risk of sounding like a dick, I have to point out that the difference here is that refs and umps make calls on the spot in real time. You get sent to the penalty box, you strike out looking, you sit down, and life goes on. You finish the game and have a beer.  If you win, you forget about the penalty, and probably don't hold a grudge towards the ref (you shouldn't anyways).  If this is the way your brain works, it's hard to muster the energy to penalize an opponent sometimes hours after you have won the race. The reality of weeknight beercan racing is that I have already been at work for 8-10 hours, rigged the boat, raced, cleaned up and put away the boat. I've been away from my family for 16-ish hours. All I want is to have a couple beers and go home. I do feel bad that a boat that should have taken a DSQ for fouling us occasionally finishes ahead of a boat that sailed within the rules, but I don't relish being put in the position of being responsible for educating skippers in the wrong or policing the rights of every boat behind us in the fleet. 

Our current program is fairly high-tech and we carry a masthead camera as well as one on the end of the boom. We haven't put the footage to use in a protest hearing yet, but it should expedite the process. 

 

I think by leaving out the protest you are leaving out part of the process. Do you use a foot wedge on the golf course. "Why don't you improve your lie a bit judge?" I don't have a solution for the races where everyone is split up afterwards. The e mail process seems flawed. Everyone's version at the protest hearing is often so different.

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ajbram,

that's your decision, to not enforce the rules. One could make the argument that by following that mentality, you're breaching the first sentence under Basic Principles in the rule book. We all have, at one time or another. For what it's worth, if the game is being played right, you get 'sent to the penalty box' in sailing at the time of the infraction too. The difference is that sailing expects you to police yourself, and not wait to get caught by the guys in striped shirts. hopefully the boat that should have been dsq'd doesn't end up thinking they know more than they do and causing a collision the next time.

allene, why does US Sailing have to say anything more than what is outlined in rule 63? If you can write a procedure for your club that utilizes email and satisfies rule 63, go to it. In our case, the appeals committee felt that our procedures weren't sufficient to meet 63.3a, for the most part. It's hard in email to exclude witnesses from an email string except for when they provide testimony, especially since the protestor and protestee have a right to be present. These days, it's certainly easier to set up a conference call and an electronic whiteboard, but it's clearly stated what you need in order for a hearing to be valid. Also, just because all of the parties "agree" to a specific format doesn't mean an appeals committee will see it the same way. 

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1 minute ago, Lono said:

I think by leaving out the protest you are leaving out part of the process. Do you use a foot wedge on the golf course. "Why don't you improve your lie a bit judge?" I don't have a solution for the races where everyone is split up afterwards. The e mail process seems flawed. Everyone's version at the protest hearing is often so different.

Our club doesn't have a communal space. Boats are split between 6ish marinas. I definitely agree that in an ideal world every protest would be followed through and everyone could learn from it. Certainly in regattas when you know you are there for the duration and you can budget time for protest hearings it's a different situation. I'm not sure what the right course of action is to make the process less painful for weeknight beercans.

I don't agree that not following through on a protest is the same as using a foot wedge though. Its more like  calling out your opponent for improving his lie but not making a bitchfest out of it at the 19th hole after you beat him by 12 strokes. Does it help him learn how to hit long irons from the rough? No. Did I still beat him fairly? Yes.

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15 minutes ago, allene222 said:

Funny.  A real protest jury probably won't look at your video.  They wouldn't even look at my photos.  For those of you who have not seen the gif I put together of the photos taken of the incident I formally protested HERE it is.  The jury was not interested in the photos.

our PC's especially at weekend events will most certainly look at photos and video. They've even held classes on how to properly evaluate photographic evidence. It has been crucial in several protests AND appeals in mass bay.

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15 minutes ago, ryley said:

For what it's worth, if the game is being played right, you get 'sent to the penalty box' in sailing at the time of the infraction too. The difference is that sailing expects you to police yourself, and not wait to get caught by the guys in striped shirts.

ryley, I'm with you on this one. However, self policing only works when everyone is on the same page about the rules. If I protest you for an obvious foul and you say "shit yeah, I guess I was on port there," you do your turns (penalty box) and life goes on.  If you decide to be a dick and not do your turns knowing that you were in the wrong, you risk DSQ if you get caught by the guys in the striped shirts. In this case though, the guy in the striped shirt is also the guy you cross checked from behind, who now has to take his case to the instant replay judges - after a game that he won. If it were beer league hockey there is no redress after the game.

I'm not suggesting your sentiments are wrong. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly. I am just lamenting that there is not a better process. What works for regattas and for pros doesn't work when the work week logistics of the real world interfere.

 

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35 minutes ago, ajbram said:

Wow Allen... that looks pretty clear cut to me... was everyone ok? Sorry to see that carnage. Photos/video can clear up otherwise subjective memories. I know of some PCs that like them and others that disregard them. I guess it depends on the club.

The top 10 feet of the mast landed in the cockpit between three of us in there.  The rest landed in the water a foot from the crew on the rail.  We were all very lucky.  The only injury was that I cut my finger back at the dock clearing off some of the mess.

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44 minutes ago, allene222 said:

Funny.  A real protest jury probably won't look at your video.  They wouldn't even look at my photos.  For those of you who have not seen the gif I put together of the photos taken of the incident I formally protested HERE it is.  The jury was not interested in the photos.

 

i'm on a "real" protest committee - we have looked at photos.

there is guidance - i think it's in the judges manual - about using photos and videos

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1 hour ago, ajbram said:

 

... I don't relish being put in the position of being responsible for educating skippers in the wrong or policing the rights of every boat behind us in the fleet. 

 

And that is, of course, your choice. However, if one makes that choice, one shouldn't be surprised when the poor behavior on the race course happens again, displayed by the same perpetrators.

And FFS, don't tell me you don't have time to protest, but then spend time to come to a sailing forum and rant and rave about the egregious foul against you. (This is not specifically directed at you, ajbram)

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25 minutes ago, us7070 said:

 

i'm on a "real" protest committee - we have looked at photos.

there is guidance - i think it's in the judges manual - about using photos and videos

I stand corrected.  All I can say is that my protest committee 

Wasn't gonna look at the twenty-seven 8 by 10 colored glossy pictures with 
The circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explainin' 
What each one was...

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From RRS Appendix M, Recommendations for Protest Committees:

M7 PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE
Photographs and videos can sometimes provide useful evidence but
protest committees should recognize their limitations...

As for educational opportunities lost by not filing protests, that's only true if we let it be true. There are still opportunities both on the course and afterwards without dragging everyone into the protest room for an adversarial activity.

For example, in the OP's situation, perhaps instead of shouting "go up, go up, go up!", rather as you approach the windward boat someone (skipper or tactician) says in a calm voice "I'm leeward, you're required to keep clear of me." (not a required hail, but not prohibited either). At that point I suspect a fair number of inexperienced skippers would head up and keep clear.

If windward doesn't go up, pull the protest flag and hail "Protest, windward/leeward. You should do penalty turns." An inexperienced skipper may not know he has this option.

(Then don't break Rule 18 at the mark, you kind of lose all your moral and expert authority at that point)

After the race, whether the other boat has done turns or not, rather than filing a formal protest just approach the other skipper (or engage via email) and have a calm, friendly discussion that starts with "Here's how I saw the situation and why I pulled the flag. How did you see the situation?"

As long as neither party is a jerk about it, lessons are learned, beers are consumed in a timely manner and nobody comes away with hard feelings.

On the other hand, if it's a case of an experienced skipper who's either willfully remained ignorant of the rules or deliberately breaks rules in order to gain advantage and bets that nobody will pull a flag, you need to protest that bastard.

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Take a step back here.  This is a beer can race.  Is it a friendly race?  Not to the OP.  He wants to cause his competitors to wrap their spinnakers around their forestay.  That might cause damage to the spinnaker.  It is, imho, a leagal but dick head move.  I have been on a boat that caused a competitor to wrap their spinnaker around their forestay and I can tell you that you get a great competitive advantage if you do that.  In our case, both boats were rounding the mark with spinnakers up and our boat was just exceptionally fast at getting the spinnaker down.  We sailed our proper course if you will and that happened to take a competitor with a spinnaker up hard up into the wind.  But taking your spinnaker down before the mark and then heading up in order to screw the other guy just seems like it should not be legal.  But in any case, if someone tried to do that to me, I would not go up. I would prefer to take turns but in this case as no flag was flown at the time, I would not have to.  Then at the next opportunity in some race in the future, I would return the favor.  Maybe we can get overlapped some time and I will just take you to China just to prevent you from placing in the club series.

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32 minutes ago, allene222 said:

I would prefer to take turns but in this case as no flag was flown at the time, I would not have to.

This is not how the rules work.

Quote

A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.

 

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14 minutes ago, fucket said:

This is not how the rules work.

 

Good point.  But maybe I don't know the rules like Zach said he didn't when he fouled Caleb. Kind of depends on how much you want to press the rules.  As I read the rules, if I break a rule and there is an invalid protest against me, I am going to win the protest.  A rule is only as good as its consequences.  That is, unless we are all gentlemen -- but then I think using the rules as weapons says we are not.

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Just to defend myself against the potential onslaught.  I was in a race last evening.  I was on port and a boat from another class was on starboard and it looked like I MIGHT clear him.  I could tell he was getting ready to duck me.  I tacked instead so as to not break a rule.  I was faster and once clear ahead, tacked back.  At the dinner, he apologized for forcing us to tack.  I said he did nothing wrong, those were the rules and I was not going to force a starboard boat to duck me. I would not break a rule and not take a turn just because there was no flag. I would also not pull the move described by the OP.

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12 hours ago, Lono said:

I am surprised at the attitude towards the rules and their application. I know they are confusing, and I am sure their mastery is a barrier to entry for novice sailors. That being said, they are an intrinsic part of this sport. The rules are what makes it a chess match and not just a boat speed parade. I disagree completely that the purpose for the rules is safety. Avoiding collision is certainly an important part but if that was the only objective, it could be accomplished more easily. The rules are both offensive and defensive and used as part of overall tactics and strategy to beat your opponent.

Embrace the rules, If you are unsure pick up Perry's book. He explains the rules very well and is a resource for rules based questions or discussion. Further the book of appeals is a great thing to read too. Also, as has been mentioned, if you are in the wrong do your damn turns...

I generally agree, but I strongly disagree that the rules are confusing, or that mastery of the rules is needed to race pleasurably.

The Part 2 When Boats Meet rules are 14 in number, written in plain english and covering just over 6 well-spaced A5 pages

A beginner can get by safely with just rules 10 to 14:

  • port tack boat keep clear of starboard tack boat;
  • windward overlapped boat keep clear of leeward boat when on same tack;
  • boat clear astern keep clear of boat clear ahead when on same tack;
  • boat that is tacking keep clear of a boat that is not;
  • Even if you are not required to keep clear, avoid contact with other boats.

What makes a 'barrier' to people enjoying racing is other people continually telling them that the rules are difficult and confusing.

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On 8/16/2017 at 2:41 AM, allene222 said:

At our club ,,, protests are rare but handled largely by email with the RC Chairman being the jury.

I was involved in one protest there

The [other boat] protested me for not taking mark room for which I was not entitled but was found lacking, and appealed I think three times.  It was all done by email with each side presenting arguments.

There was a lot less stress and it was not disruptive of the post race evening.

 It is something to consider.

 

14 hours ago, allene222 said:

the formal protest hearing is stressful as you need a lot of preparation

Some people find driving to the marina and getting their boat out of the slip stressful.

Getting across the starting line is stressful.  Sailing around the race course not hitting other boats is stressful.

LIfe is full of stressors.  Deal with it.

We expect a 13 year old kid at an opti world championships to front up to a protest hearing within an hour or so of coming ashore.

It's a stressful as you want to make it.

I'd also observe that, as Prof Parkinson said, work involved in preparing for a protest hearing expands to occupy the time available for it.  If you've got six weeks before the hearing (as in Allen's case with the dismasting incident), they sure you've got time to stuff around making gifs and stewing over the minutae, but all you really need to do for a protest hearing is identify the relevant rules, apply them to the facts as you remember them, then go into the room and tell the tale.

On 8/16/2017 at 2:05 PM, ColinG said:

I am not sure emails are the best way to handle protests. The Protest Committee has a role in determining the facts and this is generally best done in a hearing situation where questions can be asked and discrepancies of recollection explored.

I share these doubts.

There's a deal of merit in NOT allowing parties too much time to prepare, and requiring them to describe the incident and present their arguments looking the protest committee in the eye, and without some 'advisor' coaching them what to say, rather than getting carefully crafted written depositions, buffed to within and inch of their lives, with every phrase carefully honed to show compliance or breach of the rules.

Look at the bolded bit in Allen's post cited above:  three go-rounds before reaching a decision.  I'll bet that took a lot more than the hour or so that an ordinary protest hearing would take.

I've had one experience of hearing a protest where the race committee, well-meaningly, obtained written email statements from each skipper.  This gave both sides the opportunity to dig their trenches and get down into them before the actual hearing:  it probably did more harm than good.  Parties came into the protest hearing prepared to nit-pick every single assertion made in the other's written statement.

All that said, maybe email or e-conference is a good second best.

15 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

It seems like arbitration via email, or maybe conference call would be idea

I'd be much more comfortable with this rather than an electronic 'final protest hearing'.

Arbitration rules: each party describes the incident, arbitrator asks questions, arbitrator gives opinion would be relatively easy to implement by email.

Even so, that's still going to take a lot more time than the 10 minutes or so that should be the limit for an artbitration meeting.

But given that we expect Arbitration to knock off 80 to 90 percent of protests, it might be a winner.

12 hours ago, allene222 said:

It would be good if US Sailing would work out the details [for email protest hearings] and make an official email (or other) protest procedure. 

 

10 hours ago, ryley said:

why does US Sailing have to say anything more than what is outlined in rule 63? If you can write a procedure for your club that utilizes email and satisfies rule 63, go to it. In our case, the appeals committee felt that our procedures weren't sufficient to meet 63.3a, for the most part. It's hard in email to exclude witnesses from an email string except for when they provide testimony, especially since the protestor and protestee have a right to be present. These days, it's certainly easier to set up a conference call and an electronic whiteboard, but it's clearly stated what you need in order for a hearing to be valid. Also, just because all of the parties "agree" to a specific format doesn't mean an appeals committee will see it the same way. 

Well, the first reason is rule 63.1 states that a boat or competitor shall not be penalised without a protest hearing.

A hearing means parties facing the tribunal and speaking to the tribunal.  Dealing by written submissions and depositions is not a hearing.

That said, indeed, there's nothing to prevent SI amending rule 63 to prescribe a process that doesn't require a hearing, although I still have reservations.

Dealing in writing, or by e-conference will tend to advantage fluent writers and the techonolgically abled.

I can cope with a tounge-tied ten year old, who can barely write running writing on their protest form, in a face to face protest hearing (and if I recognise Mummy's or Daddy's or Coachy's handwriting on the protest form, I can give that an appropriate discount.  If people can't write fluently or are buffaloed by technology they may not get a fair shake getting their story across.

Bottom line, I think, if face to face arbitration isn't possible, electronic communication for arbitration might be a pretty good idea, but I would prefer to keep face to face hearing for the final protest hearing.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, allene222 said:

I stand corrected.  All I can say is that my protest committee wasn't gonna look at the twenty-seven 8 by 10 colored glossy pictures with The circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explainin' What each one was...

That woule be because you tried to present photos and words as a written submission, rather than using photos to illustrate the oral submissions you were entitled to make.

and 27 photos is riduculous.

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Brass,

Your rules knowledge is substantial and exquisite in detail but you fall down on your knowledge of US Folk Music.  Think back into the drug-induced fog of the late 1960's to a certain restaurant owned by Alice :)

 

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7 hours ago, Brass said:

I generally agree, but I strongly disagree that the rules are confusing, or that mastery of the rules is needed to race pleasurably.

The Part 2 When Boats Meet rules are 14 in number, written in plain english and covering just over 6 well-spaced A5 pages

A beginner can get by safely with just rules 10 to 14:

  • port tack boat keep clear of starboard tack boat;
  • windward overlapped boat keep clear of leeward boat when on same tack;
  • boat clear astern keep clear of boat clear ahead when on same tack;
  • boat that is tacking keep clear of a boat that is not;
  • Even if you are not required to keep clear, avoid contact with other boats.

What makes a 'barrier' to people enjoying racing is other people continually telling them that the rules are difficult and confusing.

Brass, I agree wholeheartedly... I was trying to be polite and it obviously diluted my comment. I think its incumbent on anyone who wants to race to know them. Like having a well prepared boat, though not everyone spends anytime on that either...

Back to the Group W Bench for me

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7 hours ago, Brass said:

That woule be because you tried to present photos and words as a written submission, rather than using photos to illustrate the oral submissions you were entitled to make.

and 27 photos is riduculous.

That is a quote from the song Alice's Restaurant by Arlo Guthrie.  I wasn't serious.  I think in my case I only brought one photo.

Quote

Man came in, said, "All rise!" We all stood up, and Obie stood up with the 
Twenty-seven 8 x 10 colored glossy pictures, and the judge walked in, sat 
Down, with a seein' eye dog and he sat down. We sat down.

Obie looked at the seein' eye dog . . . then at the twenty-seven 8 x 10 
Colored glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the 
Back of each one . . . and looked at the seein' eye dog . . . and then at 
The twenty-seven 8 x 10 colored glossy pictures with the circles and arrows 
And a paragraph on the back of each on and began to cry.

Because Obie came to the realization that it was a typical case of American 
Blind justice, and there wasn't nothin' he could do about it, and the judge 
Wasn't gonna look at the twenty-seven 8 by 10 colored glossy pictures with 
The circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explainin' 
What each one was, to be used as evidence against us.

 

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6 hours ago, ColinG said:

Brass,

Your rules knowledge is substantial and exquisite in detail but you fall down on your knowledge of US Folk Music.  Think back into the drug-induced fog of the late 1960's to a certain restaurant owned by Alice :)

 

+1

EDIT : I came very close to blowing coffee out my nose with this one.  Bravo ColinG.

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I'm embarrassed I didn't get that one, well played. I think this thread has run its course, but I do think that an approved method of holding a remote protest hearing is a good idea. Surely a hearing immediately after racing is better, but sometimes that is impractical.

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11 hours ago, Brass said:

I generally agree, but I strongly disagree that the rules are confusing, or that mastery of the rules is needed to race pleasurably.

The Part 2 When Boats Meet rules are 14 in number, written in plain english and covering just over 6 well-spaced A5 pages

A beginner can get by safely with just rules 10 to 14:

  • port tack boat keep clear of starboard tack boat;
  • windward overlapped boat keep clear of leeward boat when on same tack;
  • boat clear astern keep clear of boat clear ahead when on same tack;
  • boat that is tacking keep clear of a boat that is not;
  • Even if you are not required to keep clear, avoid contact with other boats.

What makes a 'barrier' to people enjoying racing is other people continually telling them that the rules are difficult and confusing.

All I can say is we are now 90+ comments in on what is a discussion on # 2 above. The beginner also needs something about mark roundings, and obstructions. The rules should be simple but in application they don't seem to be, Look how many very long threads there are on what seem like simple rules questions.

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57 minutes ago, ride2live said:

All I can say is we are now 90+ comments in on what is a discussion on # 2 above. The beginner also needs something about mark roundings, and obstructions. The rules should be simple but in application they don't seem to be, Look how many very long threads there are on what seem like simple rules questions.

to be fair, the question was answered by around post 20 and the direction of the conversation has gone in a completely different direction since then.

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23 hours ago, Nice! said:

And FFS, don't tell me you don't have time to protest, but then spend time to come to a sailing forum and rant and rave about the egregious foul against you. (This is not specifically directed at you, ajbram)

It shouldn't even be broadly including me.  I haven't every used the court of SA forums as an alternative to PC hearing. Besides, I said i was "at work" not "working." 

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2 hours ago, Nice! said:

Except for Alice.

And just what was the significance of the pickle??

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4 hours ago, ride2live said:
16 hours ago, Brass said:

I generally agree, but I strongly disagree that the rules are confusing, or that mastery of the rules is needed to race pleasurably.

The Part 2 When Boats Meet rules are 14 in number, written in plain english and covering just over 6 well-spaced A5 pages

A beginner can get by safely with just rules 10 to 14:

  1. port tack boat keep clear of starboard tack boat;
  2. windward overlapped boat keep clear of leeward boat when on same tack;
  3. boat clear astern keep clear of boat clear ahead when on same tack;
  4. boat that is tacking keep clear of a boat that is not;
  5. Even if you are not required to keep clear, avoid contact with other boats.

What makes a 'barrier' to people enjoying racing is other people continually telling them that the rules are difficult and confusing.

All I can say is we are now 90+ comments in on what is a discussion on # 2 above. The beginner also needs something about mark roundings, and obstructions. The rules should be simple but in application they don't seem to be, Look how many very long threads there are on what seem like simple rules questions.

I thought about that when I wrote the post.

If a boat avoids contact with other boats, even if she is a right or way boat, then she will give room or mark-room as required.

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11 hours ago, ride2live said:

The rules should be simple but in application they don't seem to be, Look how many very long threads there are on what seem like simple rules questions.

I put it this way:

  • the rules are fairly simple.
  • the game the rules and sailors produce can be more or less simple or complicated.
  • discussions about the rules can become complicated, involving a number of factors.

Factors that drag out rules discussions on SA include:

  • getting a complete description of the incident from the OP;
  • exposition of alternative fact scenarios (in the example of this thread, whether the rule 11 and rule 18 incidents were at the zone or well separated;
  • inevitable thread drift;
  • red herrings;
  • incorrect understandings of the rules;
  • discussions of tactics rather than rules;
  • any mention of rule 2/69 is good for at least 20 posts:  it takes a bit to argue with a gang with pitchforks and torches, each posting to demonstrate that my sportsmanship is bigger than your sportsmanship.
  • trolls;
  • complex discussions of contemporary American culture and music (will, at least as it was 50 years ago).

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Brass, don't forget requests for display of the boobs of any newbie's SO...

 

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On 8/12/2017 at 4:08 PM, Rubadub1 said:

So i was leeward and slowly being overtaken on a downwind leg. 15 lengths from the mark i dropped the chute and moved to close hall calling 2 boats up on windward. the closest hailed the farthest to go up he was being pressed by me. i recalled go up as we were closer to entering the circle. They did not go up.   i then hailed protest windward leeward .  the first fell off filling the chute and rounded first. the outer boat kept sailing to the mark. i hollered no room and rounded before him cutting him off at the mark. after rounding i re hailed protest to both boats and launched my flag.

my protest argument would be, windward leeward plus overtaking boats on windward side can be taken up. i was protecting my mark rounding position. My second argument would be boats not doing turns at the earliest available time. no boats were near us. my third argument would be a boat that fouls and gains advantage because of that foul should disqualify themselves. thats why i gave no mark room to the outer boat.

i ended up beating both boats so I did not follow through with the protest as it would not affect results.

it gets worse. at the club the closest skipper was agitated saying we were in the circle. wasnt even close. he never asked for overlap rights and hailed the outer boat to go up?

he made me feel very unwelcome.

the next day at the docks the second skipper walked past. i said hello and smiled but was greeted with a dagger like stare. i turned to him and asked are you upset with me? H he turned and said you Fn cut me off at the mark. turned and walked away. i called out do you want to discuss it.  he turned walked back very pissed put his nose up to mine and yelled i should fn learn how to sail with the harbour looking on. he turned and walked away. i called his name twice to get him to come back and was greeted with the finger. Stupidly i yelled out your a baby. if your going to race stop being a baby.

Now im thinking of asking our fleet captain sail to invoke rule 69.  i have been victimized many times at our club by this type of behavior and am tired of it.

? am I wrong? if yes I will apologize and disqualify my results? what do you all think? specifically if a foul outside the circle continues into the circle do mark rounding rules still come into effect? with the offending boats.

thanks fore your thoughts.

Maybe learning the rules should be your first task before lodging a R69 protest.

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15 hours ago, Brass said:

I put it this way:

  • the rules are fairly simple.
  • the game the rules and sailors produce can be more or less simple or complicated.
  • discussions about the rules can become complicated, involving a number of factors.

Factors that drag out rules discussions on SA include:

  • getting a complete description of the incident from the OP;
  • exposition of alternative fact scenarios (in the example of this thread, whether the rule 11 and rule 18 incidents were at the zone or well separated;
  • inevitable thread drift;
  • red herrings;
  • incorrect understandings of the rules;
  • discussions of tactics rather than rules;
  • any mention of rule 2/69 is good for at least 20 posts:  it takes a bit to argue with a gang with pitchforks and torches, each posting to demonstrate that my sportsmanship is bigger than your sportsmanship.
  • trolls;
  • complex discussions of contemporary American culture and music (will, at least as it was 50 years ago).

All of the above sounds like perfectly reasonable SA behaviour. 

More seriously,  your short summary of the rules up thread should be widely circulated with one addition:

You cannot run another boat aground or into anything

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