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    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Rubadub1

ARE CLUB RACERS AT BEST HARD TO GET ALONG WITH, AT WORST AHOLES?

50 posts in this topic

Whats your experience in general terms? My club has many nice people. but the cliques are bad and many. old vs. new. phrf vs. one design. spinnaker vs, white sail. rudeness and yelling matches occur too often.  relationship affairs happen and build walls. many good people have quit. Despite this our grand old lady 200 years old still exists and is run by volunteers with the exception of a paid bar steward. must do work committees get things done but optional ones always fail as bickering stalls them. is this the life of a yacht club??

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I think the root of most of the yelling matches is a misunderstanding of the rules. I know this seems contrary "being nice" but you should encourage your members to follow through with all protests and have actual arbitration and actual hearings. 

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As Sarah Silverman said - "if all your roommates are bad then you are the bad roommate".  You could start by losing the all caps thread titles.

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sorry d'ranger. i keep forgetting caps to some mean yelling! i am old enough to remember seeing the jfk incident on tv and to me caps are just for emphasis.:wacko:

 

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

As Sarah Silverman said - "if all your roommates are bad then you are the bad roommate".  You could start by losing the all caps thread titles.

 

1 hour ago, Rubadub1 said:

sorry d'ranger. i keep forgetting caps to some mean yelling! i am old enough to remember seeing the jfk incident on tv and to me caps are just for emphasis.:wacko:

 

I'm afraid this exchange speaks volumes. 

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If you don't know who the asshole is on the boat....

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The previous posts are illustrative. 

More specifically, in my experience at a few clubs; there are class cliques where typically the one design sailors condescend to all phrf sailors, who condescend to the Non spinnakers, who are frustrated by the them both mucking up the start area during the earlier  (Non-spinnaker) starts. Fill in your local hierarchy of classes... 

Mark roundings are predictably contentious with multiple classes arriving at shared marks, often from different directions/courses, and different handling/sailing characteristics and skill levels manifesting.

When a 2000 lb sport boat tacks under the bow of "Lioness" their idea of "too close" and mine are often radically different based on;  ability actually see them and to dodge limited by steerage and mass. 

They don't expect our full keel turning/tacking radius when we claim our mark room, and that leads to some yelling when we are wider than they would have been. 

Toss in a few multihulls, on a very narrow commercial waterway, some octogenarians who don't see too well/are hard of hearing and it can get chaotic. 

We do seem to keep the rancor at a moderate level, no fistfights or lawsuits in 10 years, though one member has been put up for censure for aggressive tactics and disregard of rules and hitting a few too many others. 

 

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Sounds familiar. Maybe its just the way it is and i will have to accept it or leave it. I really love racing sailboats but the rest is getting too me. I dont use our club anymore. Moved my boats to a different neighboring marina.

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If you're not beating the competition by 15 secs per mile you haven't started racing yet.   Learn how to sail faster and the rule crap will fade away.

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2savave. What you say is very true. When i am up with the top 3 which is becoming more and more often the exchanges civil and usually contain cross or dip, you have overlap etc. No bs cause we all know. Thanks for reminding me.

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Highly variable. At one club if you show up with 2 people and a jib, you might get a spare chute and 2 or 3 more people from the other boats so you can keep up. The other club would tell you to stay out of the way with your loser boat.

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A better way than forcing the issue with protests etc, is to get a good sailor to run an offline protest hearing at the bar so that the guys can actually learn the rules and how to use them appropriately Lby having the good sailor talk them through the rules. It lowers the tone, raises the awareness, and makes friends out of mortal enemies.

 

The good sailor is usually someone everyone knows, trusts and willing to walk the group through the issues. Regular protest committees, by definition, are a lot of pomp and circumstance and are more about technicalities than about teaching the club sailors the nuances of the 10 or so rules left in the book. This is not to belittle protest committees, as they are often put in shitty situations, but a good sailor can usually see through the he said-she said and get a good/better outcome, without the negative view of a protest hearing.

Having post race reviews is great for teaching one design trimming and/or tactics. Might as well use the same concept for rules. Of course there are always a#$holes that just want to go to the room - those are the ones you suggest move to that 'other' club!

 

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Sometimes it's just a matter of a club's membership not being a good fit for an individual sailor.  In those cases, I don't think people start out trying to be assholes, but it ends up that way in a hurry.

A few years back a suddenly-widowed neighbor couldn't bear to sell her late husband's C&C 30 and missed seeing it go past their island house on race nights. She told me the boat was mine to use and race if I maintained it for her until she was ready to part with it. The boat had a nice set of sails and C&C 30s do well in PHRF, so I agreed. The local club was mostly retired people and farmers who happened to have boats, but with several people who I enjoyed sailing with. I joined the local club as a full member, paid the $1000 dues for the year, spent a solid month redoing the bottom and re-configuring rigging, recruited some crew, including several who were young and new to the sport, and went racing. After winning the first race by running the start line on starboard and picking off a cascade of port tackers (basically the rest of the fleet), here's what happened... my responses in bold.

1. I was approached by "the guy who always wins" and told that "Nobody starts on starboard at this club. That was an overly aggressive and dangerous tactic." - Reeeallly??? I thought this was a race? Interestingly, he was another C&C 30 owner, so he became my instant nemesis.

2. I was told "the racing rules of sailing state that only the owner of the boat can drive in a race."                                                                                                    -                So, you're telling me that every AC, GP, olympic, etc. crew is in violation of RRS?

3. I was told that I needed to take out additional insurance on the boat in addition to the policy the owner already carried on the boat in order to be allowed to race.             I have no idea if this is a thing in the US or not, but in Canada, it is not.

4. After towing another member who had engine troubles back to the club, I ran out of gas at the transient pier, raised the main and sailed to my dock, then was sanctioned by the club's harbormaster for sailing in the harbor.                                                                                                                                                                      To me if you don't have the skills to sail off and onto your dock, you shouldn't be sailing.

5. After having a crew member show up late for a race in mid August, causing me to miss the start by 30 sec, I managed to squeak out a victory by catching the fleet and then pinning "the guy who always wins" out at the finish line in a windward/leeward situation. The following Monday an email went around suggesting that we start Wed. night races earlier as the days were getting shorter, and asking what was the earliest people would be available. I responded that I cold sneak away from work in time for 4pm skippers' meeting and subsequent race. The email that went around after stated that skippers' meetings would be at 2pm sharp and racing would begin at 3pm.

Obviously, if you are not retired, you are not welcome to race, right? I emailed the commodore and race director to the effect that this was contrary to the efforts of most clubs to grow the sport and be inclusive towards young sailors and support active racing programs. The commodore (who crewed with me on Wednesdays) was helpful, then the race director and geriatric club members including "the guy who always wins" just descended into complete assholery. At the end of the day my wife and I left the club, along with 3 other "young" couples, 5 social members, and the commodore. I don't entirely blame the others at the club, or think they were intentionally dicks. If they want to parade around the race course with wine coolers in hand, starting on port in the order they finish in and call it racing, more power to them. It's just not the place for me or anyone who wants to be competitive. It would have been nice to know it up front though.

 

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Many of our issues involve catching cheaters and bringing them to justice after they have ignored friendly observations and suggestions to correct their 'oversights'.   Amazing how many rich, white, successful businessmen yachtowners cant read and understand  simple phrf regulations, or 'forget' to report changes.  Or  didn't realize touching a mark was a foul, etc. 

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Ajbram and swabbie. Thanks it somehow makes it easier to deal with knowing others have similar issues. Appreciative .

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31 minutes ago, Swabbie said:

Many of our issues involve catching cheaters and bringing them to justice after they have ignored friendly observations and suggestions to correct their 'oversights'.   Amazing how many rich, white, successful businessmen yachtowners cant read and understand  simple phrf regulations, or 'forget' to report changes.  Or  didn't realize touching a mark was a foul, etc. 

30% of CEOs are sociopaths. All to be expected actually.

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If in winning you've lost the respect of your fellow competitors you have in fact won nothing....

take the higher road and focus on your boat and how you can put the others too far behind to make a difference... 

in the process use their zeal to your advantage and plan ahead when in crossing situations and marks...

its club sailing, to be frank, no one important really gives a fuck about the taint stain yacht club intergalactic championship of the universe. 

Relax, enjoy time on your boat and see the Forrest instead of all the trees. 

 

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

30% of CEOs are sociopaths. All to be expected actually.

3% of general population, so yeah, at least.

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Nothing quite like nasty generalizations about groups to help promote mutual understanding. 

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Quit screaming when you post a new topic. All CAPS tend to point to the real assholes 

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Our club racers, on the whole, recognize that Ernesto's not coming to ask them to helm for him based on a Wednesday night in Boston Harbor. Most of our racers use the Wednesday night race as practice for the weekend, trying new techniques, bringing in new crew, and trying to balance competitiveness with camaraderie. There are exceptions, but they prove the rule. We're self-policing, we educate, and we try very hard not to yell at each other or other boats not racing. As organizers, we are always open to new ideas that will help improve participation. We save our racing sails for weekend races. Three times a year, we combine forces with our other Boston Harbor Wednesday night fleets and compare our skills to each other to the tune of 40+ boats on the start line on a Wednesday. I hope we are not the exceptions. I hope that most clubs are like us.

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I've always wondered if folks who only race don't really like to sail very much any more.

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2 hours ago, Varan said:

Quit screaming when you post a new topic. All CAPS tend to point to the real assholes 

Already noted and apologized for above, Varan.

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Our group isn't big enough to have too much conflict.  There is a definite divide between one-design (only one class) and phrf, but we all get along well enough, even if the rules sometimes get played fast and loose at times in the latter group.

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Any racing outside of one design, level rated or development, is really not racing in the sense of winners and losers. If you think it is you are deceiving yourself. In fact what it is is a fascinating naval architecture experiment. This applies to all handicapping (PHRF, Portsmouth, Classics Rating Formula, CHS etc) where boats of different sizes and ratings are handicapped.

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Don't get me wrong. I love club racing for different reasons than one - design. Even in level rated fleets, it's fun to play to your boat's strengths and against the weaknesses of others. It's also a great way to learn in a relaxed environment. My current crew went from being the 5th fastest B fleet boat by 5 sec or so to having a new boat that's fastest in our A fleet by about 30 sec. Before, if we could engage the faster boats and stick with them we would win. Now, we have to get free and sail the boat at max speed to cover our time. Different strategy, different role than before, but generally the boats that have been competitive in either fleet have not been dickish and we try not to get in pissing matches with the few turds in the fleet, as they are generally near the back anyways. At the end of the day it's a flag and some bragging rights. Not worth losing your mind over. I think most club racers share that attitude. Only takes a few to make a fleet feel unwelcoming though.

 

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1 hour ago, groundhog said:

Already noted and apologized for above, Varan.

Missed it, sorry for the redundancy. 

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3 hours ago, Amati said:

I've always wondered if folks who only race don't really like to sail very much any more.

I've spent well over a hundred days racing so far this year and I oft forget how enjoyable it is to just sail for the sake of sailing... I actually had to drag myself out of bed the other day to go sail testing because honestly the last thing I wanted to do was to go sailing... 

so yes, if you do anything to excess you're bound to find it less enjoyable over time...

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Wednesday night racing in Auckland is a pretty serious affair. If you expect to cross a starboard tacker  on port, just because, you will come a serious cropper. Plus we have a small harbour with heaps of boats of differett speeds, from orma60 and foiling cats to generic cruiser racers. 

Because it is taken seriously, mostly people are on the same page.  

 

 

Wow, three "seriouslys" in one post. Yay me. 

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ARE CLUB RACERS AT BEST HARD TO GET ALONG WITH, AT WORST AHOLES?
 
No. With rare exceptions they are the best people I have met anywhere. I would not have stuck around in this sport for 30+ years otherwise.

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On 2017-08-15 at 10:16 AM, Rubadub1 said:

Whats your experience in general terms? My club has many nice people. but the cliques are bad and many. old vs. new. phrf vs. one design. spinnaker vs, white sail. rudeness and yelling matches occur too often.  relationship affairs happen and build walls. many good people have quit. Despite this our grand old lady 200 years old still exists and is run by volunteers with the exception of a paid bar steward. must do work committees get things done but optional ones always fail as bickering stalls them. is this the life of a yacht club??

Ŵhat I found is that as people. they are generally ok Same as general population. The disconnect occurs on the water where for club racers this is their racing universe. and for us one-design/away regatta racers this is our practice ground. We come with better speed and usually a better understanding of rules, strategies and tactics. Unfortunately, you will get into some situations with club racers where they are sticking to antidated rules and interpretations. If you keep your ego in check, and understand that this is only a practice race, everything should be fine.

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I've completely removed myself from beer can racing on my boat, I'm too much of a prick to sail with the casual racers.   Now I race on other boats and have a great time.

You could change fleets, change clubs, move on.   You can find a club or class where the racers have a similar approach to racing that you have.  If you're winning all the time, maybe you should move into a tougher boat?  OR put your boat in the hands of a crewmember that can get some experience.

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On 8/15/2017 at 8:08 PM, Amati said:

I've always wondered if folks who only race don't really like to sail very much any more.

Well, It totally depends on location IMHO.  Here, there is no way I would even contemplate going out and not racing.  1. there is no where to go.  2.  there are so many frigging powerboats on the water on weekends that it makes "Cruising" un fun for anyone.  And 3.  Going in a circle really does not make my heart race.  I love to sail, but cruising with no where to go Meh....   

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8 hours ago, Plumber said:

Ŵhat I found is that as people. they are generally ok Same as general population. The disconnect occurs on the water where for club racers this is their racing universe. and for us one-design/away regatta racers this is our practice ground. We come with better speed and usually a better understanding of rules, strategies and tactics. Unfortunately, you will get into some situations with club racers where they are sticking to antidated rules and interpretations. If you keep your ego in check, and understand that this is only a practice race, everything should be fine.

Well, that's damning with faint praise.

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On 15 August 2017 at 9:53 PM, ajbram said:

5. After having a crew member show up late for a race in mid August, causing me to miss the start by 30 sec, I managed to squeak out a victory by catching the fleet and then pinning "the guy who always wins" out at the finish line in a windward/leeward situation.

How can you pin someone out at the finish in a windward/leeward? Mark room rules apply at the finish line, you have to give room if you are leeward boat... Care to explain?

 

I can only speak for club dinghy racing here in the UK, but by and large people are friendly and welcoming. The lack of protesting does sometimes irritate, but how angry are you prepared to get on an evening race where everyone's priority is getting to the front of the food queue, rather than even hinting at time in a protest room?

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7 minutes ago, jr15457 said:

How can you pin someone out at the finish in a windward/leeward? Mark room rules apply at the finish line, you have to give room if you are leeward boat... Care to explain?

 

Sorry for my inadequate explanation... he tried to sail over me, so I took him up. He had not established overlap by the time we were in the circle. Instead of driving down when I turned down, he kept sailing hot (maybe in an ill-advised attempt at boat speed for no reason that made any sense) and overstood/had to gybe to get back to the finish. I just took him up well outside the circle and turned back down before the angle dictated I would have to throw a gybe to get back down there. The circle is still a circle. If he wants to take the long way around me, can't make overlap, and sails himself so high of the course he will miss the circle entirely, that's his problem.

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1 hour ago, ajbram said:

Sorry for my inadequate explanation... he tried to sail over me, so I took him up. He had not established overlap by the time we were in the circle. Instead of driving down when I turned down, he kept sailing hot (maybe in an ill-advised attempt at boat speed for no reason that made any sense) and overstood/had to gybe to get back to the finish. I just took him up well outside the circle and turned back down before the angle dictated I would have to throw a gybe to get back down there. The circle is still a circle. If he wants to take the long way around me, can't make overlap, and sails himself so high of the course he will miss the circle entirely, that's his problem.

Fair enough. Wasn't accusing, just wondering. Your explanation of a leeward/reaching finish makes much more sense than the windward finish I was imagining. Thanks for the explanation. It seems sad that you've encountered a seemingly unwelcoming bunch of sailors, though at least some others voted with their feet and left with you. 

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We all seem to pretty much get along.  But numbers are down across the board.  

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13 hours ago, jr15457 said:

Fair enough. Wasn't accusing, just wondering. Your explanation of a leeward/reaching finish makes much more sense than the windward finish I was imagining. Thanks for the explanation. It seems sad that you've encountered a seemingly unwelcoming bunch of sailors, though at least some others voted with their feet and left with you. 

To be fair, they were a lot more welcoming at the beginning (i.e. when i was spending tons of time and effort fixing their dead friend's boat or writing a check for membership dues). The welcoming committee went away pretty promptly after the first race. Hardly any of them had ever raced outside the club (I never had any run-ins with anyone who did) and they'd probably all been racing each other on the same little stretch of water for longer than I have been alive. I think those who had been successful racing within the club had convinced themselves that there weren't any better sailors outside the club.  Egos got bruised. I'm not insinuating that i'm god's gift to sailing either. At our current club, our boat wins regularly, but we do some big regattas and we know where we stack up with the outside competition. We don't delude ourselves into thinking there is no way a new boat could show up and beat us.

So, what's the proper protocol for your first race at a new club? I would always make sure I am within the rules, and definitely not protest anybody. But do you race properly and competitively out of the gate, or politely sandbag and see if it's supposed to be a racecourse or a parade ground?

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My first race in my own boat at my YC, the start was conservative, the roundings were wide, the maneuvers talked through before each mark. That was as much because I had about 5 sails in my new boat, knew hardly anybody on my crew, had no idea what level anyone else was at, and figured we had a steep learning curve. But I'd never sandbag a race.

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We had done multiple practice and tuning sails before the first race. My crew consisted of a couple friends I had been sailing with for years, the club's commodore (a very animated retired Scotsman who used to race I-14s) and couple athletic newbies. In the first race, we were the only boat that set up for a starboard start (I think because the shape of the shoreline allows you to do fewer tacks in that spot if you start on port). We forced several port boats to duck or tack reaching down the line before hardening up at the start, so it wasn't a passive start, but it wasn't a super aggressive move or an unorthodox start. When everyone lines up for a port tack start at the pin end, the smart play is to run down the line on starboard, make others tack below, then harden up at the start and tack to cover the boats that ducked you. It's pretty much page 1 of the "how to start a race" playbook.

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On 8/15/2017 at 5:20 PM, Swabbie said:

Many of our issues involve catching cheaters and bringing them to justice after they have ignored friendly observations and suggestions to correct their 'oversights'.   Amazing how many rich, white, successful businessmen yachtowners cant read and understand  simple phrf regulations, or 'forget' to report changes.  Or  didn't realize touching a mark was a foul, etc. 

dick swab

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I just checked all your contributions to this website and I have to say that "dick swab" posted repeatedly on threads is so very creative. I think you should be posting on a middle school website. The crowd there will be much more entertained by your aggressive stalking and great way you have with words. stalking, childish anonymous assholes usually don't make it long here, or they become legend. You don't have what it takes to be legend. Your posts make that very clear.

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On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 6:51 PM, USA190520 said:

If in winning you've lost the respect of your fellow competitors you have in fact won nothing....

take the higher road and focus on your boat and how you can put the others too far behind to make a difference... 

in the process use their zeal to your advantage and plan ahead when in crossing situations and marks...

its club sailing, to be frank, no one important really gives a fuck about the taint stain yacht club intergalactic championship of the universe. 

Relax, enjoy time on your boat and see the Forrest instead of all the trees. 

 

I recognize the first quote which is from Paul Elvestrom, four time Olympic Gold Medalist.  The others elude me.

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Methinks that clubs are essential to having a good race fleet. Everybody pitches in, RC, mark maintenance, club maintenance, Sailing schools. Most especially when you need crew. There are many times when you want to race and simply cannot with bigger boats because of crew. The only way to get fresh crew is when you build from within. Eventually the kids get bigger, grow up, and contribute. Too many boats sit and rot because of this.

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On 8/17/2017 at 3:29 PM, ajbram said:

Sorry for my inadequate explanation... he tried to sail over me, so I took him up. He had not established overlap by the time we were in the circle. Instead of driving down when I turned down, he kept sailing hot (maybe in an ill-advised attempt at boat speed for no reason that made any sense) and overstood/had to gybe to get back to the finish. I just took him up well outside the circle and turned back down before the angle dictated I would have to throw a gybe to get back down there. The circle is still a circle. If he wants to take the long way around me, can't make overlap, and sails himself so high of the course he will miss the circle entirely, that's his problem.

Ummmm no, if you take him up that far you gotta follow...  no finish for you.....  

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On 8/18/2017 at 11:10 AM, Salvaged Rep said:

dick head, that's my name and best friend!!!!

Fify 

Isn't that better meow!!! 

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