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frenchie

Berkeley / Antifa

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Looks like I owe some of you a "oh... I see what you're talking about, now". 

The footage I'm seeing on twitter... is nothing like Charlottesville, or Boston.

You west coasters actually DO have a problem with violent leftist who call themselves "antifa", but are plain old bullies, and can't tell a Trump supporter from a Nazi.

https://twitter.com/joshdcaplan/status/901926676598312960/video/1

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, SV Airlie said:

Problem with your conclusion. She's being called a right wing blogger, who says she isn't both a right wing blogger AND a Nazi? Otherwise I agree with you about the rest.

I googled her.

Being an idiot ("Latinas for Trump"? Seriously.) is not the same as being a Nazi, it's not even close.

 

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Irma Hinojosa is more than a mere Trump supporter, she has appeared at every "make men great again" rally in California and advocates for the purge of all illegals from the U.S. She is both controversial and a twitter troublemaker. Although far from being a Nazi, she relishes stirring the pot. The trouble between left and right has been building for awhile now and will have to come to a head sooner or later unless cooler heads prevail there will be trouble. Here is a twitter chyron from last April.

mags661

Antifa can't bully any longer. Your days are numbered 

 
irma hinajosa

We are the champions! No time for loser ANTIFA because we are the champions of the world. We won Berkeley! So tired of all this winning! 

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BL - I'm Not saying the alt-right & alt-lite are innocent.  Far from it  -  they're perfecting IRL trolling as a tactic, it's all very deliberate.

That doesn't make this:

or this:

right, or even vaguely okay. 

 

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Frenchie, they all need to settle the heck down. Like I say at work, don't come to me with a problem unless you've got the solution. Bitching about stuff does nothing.

If the solution doesn't work, it's chalked up to breaking shit and we almost always get it right the 2nd time.

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1 minute ago, frenchie said:

Not saying the altright & altlite are innocent.  Far from it  -  they're perfecting IRL trolling as a tactic, it's all very deliberate.

That doesn't make this:

 

right, or even okay. 

 

I certainly agree with you, but this is an evolution of sorts and people are learning how to find barriers and how far they can advance beyond them. It wouldn't happen if the police took this seriously, 4,000 protesters should be manageable, but I half think Berkeley PD wants the Antifa to get their asses kicked so limit their involvement in the hope it may happen.

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Did they point derisively and laugh..........?

Bullies and other assorted fuckwads hate being laughed at, and the pointing.....

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2 hours ago, ease the sheet said:

That's nothing. Stand between a west coast hippie leftie and a wave....

You mean sit on your stick...

But, show up on a lineup with an SUP with some skills, and the shit starts to fly!

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1 hour ago, frenchie said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

anti-fascist.  willing to counter violence with violence.  Tend to be anarchist, communist and/or socialist. 

I always loved the term Anarchist.

Because even in Anarchy there is hierarchy. Usually who ever has the most guns or biggest stick.

So generally Antifa sounds like a bunch of losers that never got their shit together?

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58 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

Because even in Anarchy there is hierarchy. Usually who ever has the most guns or biggest stick.

Anarchy in practice simply means "Might makes right". See: Somalia.

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45 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

Anarchy in practice simply means "Might makes right". See: Somalia.

Anarchy is more a version of 'how about we all get along'.

'Might makes right' is more dictators and kings.

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3 minutes ago, ease the sheet said:

Anarchy is more a version of 'how about we all get along'.

No, it really isn't. Anarchy, as a political ideal, is simply about a lack of government and absolute freedom of the individual. Perhaps in small, self-selected communities that might result in a "how about we all get along" mindset. In general though, humans are selfish, short-sighted assholes and that almost always results in "might makes right". Once again, see: Somalia.

 

3 minutes ago, ease the sheet said:

'Might makes right' is more dictators and kings.

No, that is simply the end result of one person having more 'might' than those willing to oppose them; usually obtained by "getting along" with the other people willing to exercise their might to create a slice of that governmental power.

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8 hours ago, frenchie said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

anti-fascist.  willing to counter violence with violence.  Tend to be anarchist, communist and/or socialist. 

Also, like some here, willing to conflate offensive expression with violence in order to "justify" violence.

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6 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

No, it really isn't. Anarchy, as a political ideal, is simply about a lack of government and absolute freedom of the individual. Perhaps in small, self-selected communities that might result in a "how about we all get along" mindset. In general though, humans are selfish, short-sighted assholes and that almost always results in "might makes right". Once again, see: Somalia.

 

No, that is simply the end result of one person having more 'might' than those willing to oppose them; usually obtained by "getting along" with the other people willing to exercise their might to create a slice of that governmental power.

You really should read more widely...

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8 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I always loved the term Anarchist.

Because even in Anarchy there is hierarchy. Usually who ever has the most guns or biggest stick.

So generally Antifa sounds like a bunch of losers that never got their shit together?

Yet,  They also tend to be young.  Lot of college students & such.

7 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

Anarchy in practice simply means "Might makes right". See: Somalia.

There's two possible responses to that:

1. That's not anarchy, it's failed statism, and rival competing statist factions:

https://c4ss.org/content/1201

2. It's still better than the corrupt government it replaced, and half the other countries in the region:

http://www.benjaminwpowell.com/scholarly-publications/journal-articles/somalia-after-state-collapse.pdf

 

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41 minutes ago, frenchie said:

Yet,  They also tend to be young.  Lot of college students & such.

There's two possible responses to that:

2. It's still better than the corrupt government it replaced, and half the other countries in the region:

http://www.benjaminwpowell.com/scholarly-publications/journal-articles/somalia-after-state-collapse.pdf

 

That's an interesting reference.

Thanks 

 

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Arrest anyone committing acts of violence associated with this stuff.  Period.  Let anyone who wants to speak, do so, without weapons or other devices which can be used to hurt anyone.  Period.  Before long, this will go away, because these folks don't want to speak.  They want to be shut down so that they can point to the violent counter protesters and feed the meme about denial of free speech.  

Denying permits just gives these attention whores what they seek.  

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DIRWKeNUQAA9d-B.jpg

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11 hours ago, ease the sheet said:

You really should read more widely...

I have. I'm just not buying what the idyllic anarchists are selling. Just as I don't buy what the Marxists are selling, or what the Rand acolytes are, the libertarians, the "free market" capitalists, etc. Reality bites and the reality is that humans are (as a species) tribal, greedy, short-sighted, and self-centred assholes. Any system we have of dealing with us as a whole needs to cater for the fact that a subset of the population will knowingly and deliberately screw the majority of their community if they see a short-term gain for themselves. Anarchy's desire for no governance and individual freedom cannot deal with that, especially in a world where one can easily carry with you weapons that will take out scores of people, from a distance, should their personal freedoms be impinging on your desires. 

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11 hours ago, frenchie said:

There's two possible responses to that:

1. That's not anarchy, it's failed statism, and rival competing statist factions

And the response to that is, being tribal in nature and knowing the power of collective might, that is what humans will eventually always evolve into from an anarchist environment. Ask anthropologists and look into how primitive societies evolve once they are able to settle down. The larger the population without government, the more benefits there are to being "in charge", the more likely one is to find people who will gather power for themselves through force of might.

Somalia's state is what happens when people are left to govern themselves (i.e. the government loses it's authority) whilst there is the capability of enforcing authority through force of arms. There will always be someone wanting to be a "warlord" and if they have the freedom to amass and exert power through force of arms, they will become that warlord because most people don't want to die challenging them.

 

11 hours ago, frenchie said:

2. It's still better than the corrupt government it replaced, and half the other countries in the region:

http://www.benjaminwpowell.com/scholarly-publications/journal-articles/somalia-after-state-collapse.pdf

It's an interesting paper. Thanks for the reference. There are others that disagree, such as Médecins Sans Frontières, with it being better and he ignores that several of his improvements come in large part due to aid from other countries in response to the collapse of government (immunisation levels, for example).

I don't debate that a corrupt government can be worse than a less corrupt state of tribal feudalism, but Somalia is still not a success story for anarchism. If it was, people like Mr Powell wouldn't have to work so hard to tell people it is - we'd be able to leave it alone, not worry about the warlords funding piracy in the region, and admire it's success. 

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5 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

And the response to that is, being tribal in nature and knowing the power of collective might, that is what humans will eventually always evolve into from an anarchist environment. Ask anthropologists and look into how primitive societies evolve once they are able to settle down. The larger the population without government, the more benefits there are to being "in charge", the more likely one is to find people who will gather power for themselves through force of might.

Somalia's state is what happens when people are left to govern themselves (i.e. the government loses it's authority) whilst there is the capability of enforcing authority through force of arms. There will always be someone wanting to be a "warlord" and if they have the freedom to amass and exert power through force of arms, they will become that warlord because most people don't want to die challenging them.

 

It's an interesting paper. Thanks for the reference. There are others that disagree, such as Médecins Sans Frontières, with it being better and he ignores that several of his improvements come in large part due to aid from other countries in response to the collapse of government (immunisation levels, for example).

I don't debate that a corrupt government can be worse than a less corrupt state of tribal feudalism, but Somalia is still not a success story for anarchism. If it was, people like Mr Powell wouldn't have to work so hard to tell people it is - we'd be able to leave it alone, not worry about the warlords funding piracy in the region, and admire it's success. 

Your confusing a system or 'ism' with it's supposed adherents.

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16 hours ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

DIRWKeNUQAA9d-B.jpg

 

Can we put you down as anti-education?

You're not alone. Wear it proudly. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ease the sheet said:

Your confusing a system or 'ism' with it's supposed adherents.

No. As I stated in my original post, I am talking about the system in practice.

Anarchy is all well and good in a hypothetical fairy land where everyone is good natured, rational, willing to live & let live, etc. So too are the systems/ideologies of socialism, libertarianism, free market capitalism, and so on. Thing is, we live in the real world where too many people are not good natured, not rational, not willing to live & let live, etc. In this real world, in practice, anarchy is simply the bedrock for "might makes right".

Like it or not, that's human nature. Humanity is not an enlightened species, even if some members of it are. It fucking blows and systems (or "-isms") that don't cater for that are bound to fail. Like anarchy.

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6 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

No. As I stated in my original post, I am talking about the system in practice.

Anarchy is all well and good in a hypothetical fairy land where everyone is good natured, rational, willing to live & let live, etc. So too are the systems/ideologies of socialism, libertarianism, free market capitalism, and so on. Thing is, we live in the real world where too many people are not good natured, not rational, not willing to live & let live, etc. In this real world, in practice, anarchy is simply the bedrock for "might makes right".

Like it or not, that's human nature. Humanity is not an enlightened species, even if some members of it are. It fucking blows and systems (or "-isms") that don't cater for that are bound to fail. Like anarchy.

Here endth the lesson from elder Bent.

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22 minutes ago, ease the sheet said:

He's starting to sound like a right wing nutter talking about Islam.

Really? Someone seems a little miffed that I don't buy their sales pitch for Anarchism any more than I buy Tom's pitch on Libertarianism, Dog's pitch on Conservatism, jzk's on Free Market Capitalism, etc.

I don't think Anarchists are about "might makes right". I think they're idealists ignoring human nature. Much the same as every other proponent of SomethingOrOther-ism. 

 

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On 8/28/2017 at 11:38 PM, LB 15 said:

Here endth the lesson from elder Bent.

Equal it, or how about you STFU.

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Nancy Pelosi condemns the Antifa attack...

“Our democracy has no room for inciting violence or endangering the public, no matter the ideology of those who commit such acts.  The violent actions of people calling themselves antifa in Berkeley this weekend deserve unequivocal condemnation, and the perpetrators should be arrested and prosecuted.

“In California, as across all of our great nation, we have deep reverence for the Constitutional right to peaceful dissent and free speech.  Non-violence is fundamental to that right.  Let us use this sad event to reaffirm that we must never fight hate with hate, and to remember the values of peace, openness and justice that represent the best of America.”

Fight hate with hate? There were no Nazis or KKK at the demonstrating. There were no expressions of hate by the demonstrators. There was no hate fighting hate, there were peaceful demonstrators attacked by Antifa fascists.

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59 minutes ago, Dog said:

Nancy Pelosi condemns the Antifa attack...

“Our democracy has no room for inciting violence or endangering the public, no matter the ideology of those who commit such acts.  The violent actions of people calling themselves antifa in Berkeley this weekend deserve unequivocal condemnation, and the perpetrators should be arrested and prosecuted.

“In California, as across all of our great nation, we have deep reverence for the Constitutional right to peaceful dissent and free speech.  Non-violence is fundamental to that right.  Let us use this sad event to reaffirm that we must never fight hate with hate, and to remember the values of peace, openness and justice that represent the best of America.”

Fight hate with hate? There were no Nazis or KKK at the demonstrating. There were no expressions of hate by the demonstrators. There was no hate fighting hate, there were peaceful demonstrators attacked by Antifa fascists terrorists.

There is an example of an non-weaselly condemnation. Why can't more Republicans be equally clear in their condemnation of white supremacists?

But one thing needs correcting. Look up the word "fascist". It has a definition, it has a relatively specific meaning. Apart from the fact that I despise Dick Cheney, Cheney's political views were/are fascist. That is purely a descriptive word, not a random insult. To call somebody a "liberal" might be an insult, likewise "Muslim socialist," but to use all these words just as insults, without a friggin clue about what they actually mean in the real world, is stupid.

"Stupid" is also an insult, yes, but in this case it has a very specific and literal meaning. If I just wanted to insult you, I'd call you a donkey's ass sucking, limp dicked, pissant. Those words also have literal meanings but I don't think anyone would mistake them. See the difference?

-DSK

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33 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

There is an example of an non-weaselly condemnation. Why can't more Republicans be equally clear in their condemnation of white supremacists?

But one thing needs correcting. Look up the word "fascist". It has a definition, it has a relatively specific meaning. Apart from the fact that I despise Dick Cheney, Cheney's political views were/are fascist. That is purely a descriptive word, not a random insult. To call somebody a "liberal" might be an insult, likewise "Muslim socialist," but to use all these words just as insults, without a friggin clue about what they actually mean in the real world, is stupid.

"Stupid" is also an insult, yes, but in this case it has a very specific and literal meaning. If I just wanted to insult you, I'd call you a donkey's ass sucking, limp dicked, pissant. Those words also have literal meanings but I don't think anyone would mistake them. See the difference?

-DSK

Yeah I know I stretched the definition a bit. Antifa are not technically fascist, they just act like fascists act. Call it poetic license in the interest of demonstrating that they are what they hate. As for Pelosi's condemnation it was pretty good up until she wrongly smeared the peaceful demonstrators as haters. 

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2 minutes ago, Dog said:

Yeah I know I stretched the definition a bit. Antifa are not technically fascist, they just act like fascists act. Call it poetic license in the interest of demonstrating that they are what they hate. As for Pelosi's condemnation it was pretty good up until she wrongly smeared the peaceful demonstrators as haters. 

Did you quote that part? I didn't see it. But i apologize for not mentioning in my earlier post, you get plus for mentioning Nancy Pelosi in a positive context.

Poetic license is good, except when it becomes misleading. The definition of FASCISM: belief in the supremacy of the state over individual rights, autocratic or dictatorial rule (often combined with glorification of the personae of the leader), use of the state for corporate profit (often thru military adventurism), rigid state control of media and communications, forcible suppression of political opposition, and belligerent nationalism combined with glorification of the military. The word comes from the Roman/Latin word 'fasces' which was a bundle of sticks with an axe in the middle, a symbol of high authority in ancient Rome.

The only characteristic Antifa has which could be called "fascist" is the forcible suppression of opposition, and it doesn't really apply in the literal sense because they don't have any cogent political beliefs although they are generally associated with "the left."

The reason I'm taking such pains here is that you have often in the past tried hard to label people whom you consider bad to be "leftist" or "liberal" without any other justification than your dislike of them. The original Nazis were socialist (kind of, I think they just used that label for poularity) but very very few fascist political movements have been leftist. Fascism by it's very nature is more of a rightie state of mind.

-DSK

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Did you quote that part? I didn't see it. But i apologize for not mentioning in my earlier post, you get plus for mentioning Nancy Pelosi in a positive context.

Poetic license is good, except when it becomes misleading. The definition of FASCISM: belief in the supremacy of the state over individual rights, autocratic or dictatorial rule (often combined with glorification of the personae of the leader), use of the state for corporate profit (often thru military adventurism), rigid state control of media and communications, forcible suppression of political opposition, and belligerent nationalism combined with glorification of the military. The word comes from the Roman/Latin word 'fasces' which was a bundle of sticks with an axe in the middle, a symbol of high authority in ancient Rome.

The only characteristic Antifa has which could be called "fascist" is the forcible suppression of opposition, and it doesn't really apply in the literal sense because they don't have any cogent political beliefs although they are generally associated with "the left."

The reason I'm taking such pains here is that you have often in the past tried hard to label people whom you consider bad to be "leftist" or "liberal" without any other justification than your dislike of them. The original Nazis were socialist (kind of, I think they just used that label for poularity) but very very few fascist political movements have been leftist. Fascism by it's very nature is more of a rightie state of mind.

-DSK

I don't hate liberals, I disagree with them. I generally recognize three broad political classes, liberals, conservatives and assholes. Assholes include Nazis the KKK and Antifa.

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9 minutes ago, Dog said:

I don't hate liberals, I disagree with them. I generally recognize three broad political classes, liberals, conservatives and assholes. Assholes include Nazis the KKK and Antifa.

Where do fascists fit in there? 

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Just now, Sol Rosenberg said:

Where do fascists fit in there? 

Assholes.

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14 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

Really? Someone seems a little miffed that I don't buy their sales pitch for Anarchism any more than I buy Tom's pitch on Libertarianism, Dog's pitch on Conservatism, jzk's on Free Market Capitalism, etc.

I don't think Anarchists are about "might makes right". I think they're idealists ignoring human nature. Much the same as every other proponent of SomethingOrOther-ism. 

 

As soon as you have force, you no longer have anarchy.

My household runs on anarchy. We choose to be here, we choose to behave in a way which is amenable to the household's inhabitants.

If someone where to apply force to my household's arrangements, we would be correctly able to defend ourselves.

That's anarchy. And it's not complicated.

 

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9 minutes ago, ease the sheet said:

As soon as you have force, you no longer have anarchy.

My household runs on anarchy. We choose to be here, we choose to behave in a way which is amenable to the household's inhabitants.

If someone where to apply force to my household's arrangements, we would be correctly able to defend ourselves.

That's anarchy.

And it would all fall apart the instant someone in the household were to bring force to members of your household that they cannot or will not defend themselves against. At which point, you will have "might makes right". You either give in (giving right to their might), or assert yourself forcefully by bringing greater force to bear than they can take (giving right to your might). As soon as someone chooses to assert force against you, the ideals of anarchy give way to might makes right, be it through application of better weaponry (quality of might) or mob rule (quantity of might).

That's reality.

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Anarchism is def more useful as a political ideal, to work towards, than as an actual political system.  In practice, it's an incredibly fragile arrangement. Spanish Civil War proved that.

But it has had some success as an economic arrangement  -  small scale (my neighbourhood food coop) and large (the Mondragon Corporation). 

A lot of what we call "human nature", is actually culture.  It can be changed.  Takes a long-ass time, but still.

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9 hours ago, Dog said:

I don't hate liberals, I disagree with them. I generally recognize three broad political classes, liberals, conservatives and assholes. Assholes include Nazis the KKK and Antifa.

Thanks for letting us know which group you disagree with.

 

 

 

It's a joke.

 

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13 hours ago, Dog said:

Nancy Pelosi condemns the Antifa attack...

“Our democracy has no room for inciting violence or endangering the public, no matter the ideology of those who commit such acts.  The violent actions of people calling themselves antifa in Berkeley this weekend deserve unequivocal condemnation, and the perpetrators should be arrested and prosecuted.

“In California, as across all of our great nation, we have deep reverence for the Constitutional right to peaceful dissent and free speech.  Non-violence is fundamental to that right.  Let us use this sad event to reaffirm that we must never fight hate with hate, and to remember the values of peace, openness and justice that represent the best of America.” 

I'm with Nancy on this. She is drawing the line in the correct place IMO.

Quote

(from Dog) There were no expressions of hate by the demonstrators.

WTF? They  chanted "Jews will not replace us." In unison, on camera. While parading with torches. You are scarin' me here, Dog.

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2 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

And it would all fall apart the instant someone in the household were to bring force to members of your household that they cannot or will not defend themselves against. At which point, you will have "might makes right". You either give in (giving right to their might), or assert yourself forcefully by bringing greater force to bear than they can take (giving right to your might). As soon as someone chooses to assert force against you, the ideals of anarchy give way to might makes right, be it through application of better weaponry (quality of might) or mob rule (quantity of might).

That's reality.

The moment attacking force is applied, and which cannot be overcome with just, defensive force, it is no longer anarchy.

 

Same as the moment a Muslim slaps on a suicide vest, they are no longer Muslim.

Same as the moment a Christian puts on a white hood, the are no longer Christian.

 

Like I said, it's not complicated.

 

 

Being it back to the op.

Antifa are a reactive, defensive force. The Nazi's etc are a proactive, attacking force. Antifa wouldn't exist without a protagonist.

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1 hour ago, jocal505 said:

I'm with Nancy on this. She is drawing the line in the correct place IMO.

WTF? They  chanted "Jews will not replace us." In unison, on camera. While parading with torches. You are scarin' me here, Dog.

Berkeley was a completely different crowd than Charlottesville.  On both sides.

If the Rally from Charlottesville met the community response from Berkeley, there would be a lot of casualties.   

If the Rally from Berkeley met the community reaction of Charlotesville... there would be a lot of debating.

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1 hour ago, ease the sheet said:

The moment attacking force is applied, and which cannot be overcome with just, defensive force, it is no longer anarchy.

No-one is arguing that. I'm simply pointing out that human nature will aways result in an "attacking force" in an environment without a governing force preventing it from becoming prevalent. It's already a problem in systems where there is a force that will remove the "individual freedoms" from people that attack others, so removing such governance will only allow such people to flourish.

 

1 hour ago, ease the sheet said:

Same as the moment a Muslim slaps on a suicide vest, they are no longer Muslim.

Same as the moment a Christian puts on a white hood, the are no longer Christian.

Completely irrelevant to the point. Islam & Christianity don't need everyone to go along with their beliefs in order to remain viable. Anarchists do. That's not going to happenin the real world. In the real world, there are always assholes that will abuse the personal freedoms you give them to act against others. Without a system of governance where society decides on which individual liberties are suppressed in order to allow other people's liberties to flourish, "might makes right" will become the norm.

 

1 hour ago, ease the sheet said:

Like I said, it's not complicated.

Never said it was. The issue is that you are arguing the "ideal" as if it is some counter to my argument of what is "realistic". You want to run your house or a small commune around the idealistic principals of anarchy - you have at it. It's not a realistic option for society at large.

 

1 hour ago, ease the sheet said:

Being it back to the op.

Antifa are a reactive, defensive force. The Nazi's etc are a proactive, attacking force. Antifa wouldn't exist without a protagonist.

No argument there. Some of the people in Antifa might look for other opportunities to act out, but I agree that without fascism to rally against, Antifa has no meaning.

Has nothing to do with anarchy or your disagreement with me about it's applicability to the real world, so not sure why you chose to quote me in saying that.

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18 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Equal it, or how about you STFU.

Why, did reading that one sentence i posted take up much of your day? Certainly a lot less than reading all of Bent Siri's body of work.

My God he enjoys the sound of his own keyboard.

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3 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Why, did reading that one sentence i posted take up much of your day? Certainly a lot less than reading all of Bent Siri's body of work.

My God he enjoys the sound of his own keyboard.

What I saw was a series of interesting and valid insights. Rewarding stuff. Sorry for the rudeness. I once had to look up praline.

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1 minute ago, jocal505 said:

What I saw was a series of interesting and valid in insights. Rewarding stuff. Sorry for the rudeness. I had to look up praline.

And my apologies as well. I should have more self control but i cant help but put shit on bent. It like a gun thread to Tom.

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2 hours ago, frenchie said:

Anarchism is def more useful as a political ideal, to work towards, than as an actual political system.  In practice, it's an incredibly fragile arrangement. Spanish Civil War proved that.

But it has had some success as an economic arrangement  -  small scale (my neighbourhood food coop) and large (the Mondragon Corporation). 

Agreed. Both in the fact it is a nice "ideal" to work towards (like global peace), but that one has to be realistic about the fact that bad people exist and any system of governance (or non-governance in the case of anarchy) has to have a means of dealing with that.

This even applies for the economic arrangements you discuss. Your small scale food coop and the Mondragon Corp both rely on the threat of outside force should someone choose to take liberties in regards to how they obtain the goods. Someone decides to waltz into a farm to take someone's pig for their dinner table without permission or sabotages the manufacturing plant due to feeling Fagor Electrodomésticos is damaging the environment - there is a reliance on a liberty curtailing punishment being enforced by an external government to deter others from doing the same. In other words, successful examples of anarchy-like systems work when backed up by non-anarchist governmental restrictions.

 

2 hours ago, frenchie said:

A lot of what we call "human nature", is actually culture.  It can be changed.  Takes a long-ass time, but still.

True, but a lot of "human nature" is simply "animal nature" by a pretty name. That isn't going to be changed in anything less the a large evolutionary time-span. We still have monsters that defy all their cultural norms when indulging their desire to take from, inflict pain to, or otherwise abuse/end their victims. It's a sad fact of life that we have to live with.

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16 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

No-one is arguing that. I'm simply pointing out that human nature will aways result in an "attacking force" in an environment without a governing force preventing it from becoming prevalent. It's already a problem in systems where there is a force that will remove the "individual freedoms" from people that attack others, so removing such governance will only allow such people to flourish.

 

 

 

To freeze it here for a bit... The point that makes the libertarians choke is that the state has the monopoly on violence. I understand that to a point, but some attempt at the impersonal application of violence or regulation is important. The study of Heller's scholarship shows how key this state application of force was in England, and not so much as a tyrannical application as an effort at civilized, unarmed norms. Generally, their legal decisions seemed to equate the presence of private arms with terror and misbehavior. Any force applied on behalf of the State was written off legally.

When we were nation building in Iraq, the need for a police force came numero uno. The fact that the state CAN overpower a mobocracy is basic, and it's what failed locally after Rodney King. I am not exactly pro-statist police, but yeah, anarchy happened after Rodney King.

The driving element of control should be respect for social order, ideally, but then again state force via the National Guard is not far away. This doesn't occupy much of my concern, it beats anarchy, YMMV.

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5 hours ago, benwynn said:

Thanks for letting us know which group you disagree with.

 

 

 

It's a joke.

 

Is "disagreement" what you meant above? (Edit: crossed threads, talking about rally thread.)

When the ACLU defends Nazi's, are they being tolerant of them? Are they implying that they agree with them?

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7 hours ago, ease the sheet said:

As soon as you have force, you no longer have anarchy.

My household runs on anarchy. We choose to be here, we choose to behave in a way which is amenable to the household's inhabitants.

If someone where to apply force to my household's arrangements, we would be correctly able to defend ourselves.

That's anarchy. And it's not complicated.

 

There was a philosopher who once said that Anarchy works great as long as all the members love each other.

He probably had a similar family life :)

 

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5 hours ago, jocal505 said:

I'm with Nancy on this. She is drawing the line in the correct place IMO.

WTF? They  chanted "Jews will not replace us." In unison, on camera. While parading with torches. You are scarin' me here, Dog.

Nancy was condemning Antifa's attack on peaceful protesters in Berkeley. This is not the first time they have used violence against those with whom they have political differences. Its a mode of behavior they share with Nazis and the KKK putting them squarely in the asshole camp. Recently however they have been much more active than their fellow assholes. They should be be ridiculed and shunned.

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8 hours ago, jocal505 said:
Quote

(from Dog) There were no expressions of hate by the demonstrators.

WTF? They  chanted "Jews will not replace us." In unison, on camera. While parading with torches. You are scarin' me here, Dog.

Like most righties, Dog has these lapses into fantasy on a regular basis. It's necessary to sustain the political beliefs, after all the Tooth Fairy has an R after it's name.

-DSK

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3 hours ago, Dog said:

Nancy was condemning Antifa's attack on peaceful protesters in Berkeley. This is not the first time they have used violence against those with whom they have political differences. Its a mode of behavior they share with Nazis and the KKK putting them squarely in the asshole camp. Recently however they have been much more active than their fellow assholes. They should be be ridiculed and shunned.

Okay, I'll even agree. Violence is not desired.

I think that most of the homegrown leftie terrorists have been based near or in the PNW. After sabatoging a ski area in CO, some Eugene types were tracked for years before being indicted. They didn't seem impressive once caught, not like Mandella or MLK. 

Quote

This is directly from the Earth Liberation Front Website. Currently, the domain EarthLiberationFront.com is FOR SALE (including .com, .org, .info, .us) to the highest bidder, however, some individual did make a new website at www.earth-liberation-front.org where the individual that owns the website discusses the finer points of "Operation Backfire".

Welcome to the website EarthLiberationFront.com

The ELF is an underground movement with no leadership, membership or official spokesperson. The intention of this web site is to inform and chronicle issues related to E.L.F. This web site's management, webmasters, affiliates, or other participants are not to be considered spokespersons, members, or affiliates of The Earth Liberation Front.

Don't believe what the government and mass media say about the ELF, find out for yourself! The first book to be published on the underground Earth Liberation Front (ELF) will soon be hitting the shelves of independent bookstores around the country. 'Earth Liberation Front 1997-2002,' edited by former ELF Spokesperson, Leslie James Pickering, traces the ELF's first five years of activity through communiqués, underground newspapers, interviews, testimonies and releases.

http://www.targetofopportunity.com/elf.htm

But Dog, you are using a smokescreen here. Such leftie mischief barely exists compared to the SPLC's constant evidence on right wingers. And no leftie can be compared to McVeigh. Objectively, the problem happens mainly on the right. 

Quote

 Terror From the Right: Plots, Conspiracies and Racist Rampages Since Oklahoma City

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=164031&page=2#entry4864130

 

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7 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

True, but a lot of "human nature" is simply "animal nature" by a pretty name. That isn't going to be changed in anything less the a large evolutionary time-span. We still have monsters that defy all their cultural norms when indulging their desire to take from, inflict pain to, or otherwise abuse/end their victims. It's a sad fact of life that we have to live with.

The evolution of human nature is sneaky, but it's there. Based on observations such as your own (and the Pooplius types), checks upon human nature have entered the mix, including the Magna Carta and the U.S. Constitution. The accomplishment of gay marriage was itself an assault on human nature AND a parade of human nature. MLK and Gandhi exploited the higher side of human nature, successfully. Two of the ten commandments were alien to Native Americans, but not for long. Since people will hope and people will strive , human nature will be systemically monitored IMO, in the presence of monsters. 

Monsters? Ted Bundy and Manson and McVeigh and Gaytor are probs, certainly... but I think that CATO is an org of cynically organized human nature run amok.

 

 

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On 8/27/2017 at 9:16 PM, Bent Sailor said:

Anarchy in practice simply means "Might makes right". See: Somalia.

Yea, that is a laugh.

 

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Too bad that some of their participants engage in violence. That's what the Nazis and Klansmen want. 

If they'd stick with the doxing I'd support them. That's the real reason the Boys despise Antifa, I suspect. They remove the plausible deniability. 

https://www.vox.com/2017/9/1/16202908/antifa-charlottesville-alt-right-white-nationalist-protest

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6 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Too bad that some of their participants engage in violence. That's what the Nazis and Klansmen want. 

If they'd stick with the doxing I'd support them. That's the real reason the Boys despise Antifa, I suspect. They remove the plausible deniability. 

https://www.vox.com/2017/9/1/16202908/antifa-charlottesville-alt-right-white-nationalist-protest

I have heard way too many excuses for the existence of Nazis in our midst, painlessly, or painfully, if Antifa can get the job done let them at it. No one has shown any other option available to eliminate this threat, and no one seems interested in finding one either.

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2 hours ago, badlatitude said:

I have heard way too many excuses for the existence of Nazis in our midst, painlessly, or painfully, if Antifa can get the job done let them at it. No one has shown any other option available to eliminate this threat, and no one seems interested in finding one either.

Siskel: the upgrade to Billy Jack was that the good fascists won.

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16 hours ago, badlatitude said:

FB_IMG_1504448123709.jpg

Actually, my biggest concerns are people who want violent suppression or censorship as a response to them.

We have a history of getting by without those tactics and I think it should continue.

https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-history-taking-stand-free-speech-skokie

https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/we-all-need-defend-speech-we-hate

https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-em-defends-kkks-right-free-speech

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16 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

If they'd stick with the doxing I'd support them.

Heh. Who said that? Someone who wants plausible deniability, I suppose.

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3 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Actually, my biggest concerns are people who want violent suppression or censorship as a response to them.

We have a history of getting by without those tactics and I think it should continue.

https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-history-taking-stand-free-speech-skokie

https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/we-all-need-defend-speech-we-hate

https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-em-defends-kkks-right-free-speech

I agree with that, but what do you do when the Nazi movement becomes national? with the help of our alt right president, it has a very good chance of doing exactly that.

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48 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

I agree with that, but what do you do when the Nazi movement becomes national? with the help of our alt right president, it has a very good chance of doing exactly that.

 

Without getting all philosophical, I think our system is doing exactly what it's suppose to do.   The current president has 'embolden' supremacists to pop up and up they come.  Trump's not a Nazi.  He's sexist yes and a pretty hard core cl assist IMHO but I actually don't think he's particularly racist.  He just doesn't put that much value in anyone who doesn't have money or power or can excite his peepee.  He's a narcissist through and through.  The white supremacists were always out there, you just had to look - same with a lot of groups.  The rest of the populous see them and says.. WTF? and they get a bunch of pushback.  They start to fragment and splinter with the truly nutty types being marginalized and the 'you might have a point' types getting assimilated into the mainstream dialog.

Antifa was always out there in it's different incarnations. They've been showing up and shouting down professors and speakers for YEARS.  No one really cared that much until they showed up in larger numbers.  The populous looks at them and says WTF? and they get pushback.  They start to fragment and splinter with the truly nutty types being marginalized and the 'you might have a point' types getting assimilated into the mainstream dialog.

We have no more likelihood of Handmaid's Tail or Nazi USA than we do Communist America.   As Churchill said, ""The Americans Will Always Do the Right Thing…After They Have Exhausted All the Alternatives."  We're just exhausting alternatives at this point.

 

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7 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

 

Without getting all philosophical, I think our system is doing exactly what it's suppose to do.   The current president has 'embolden' them and pop - up they come.  Trump's not a Nazi.  He's sexist yes and a pretty hard core cl assist IMHO but I actually don't think he's particularly racist.  He just doesn't put that much value in anyone who doesn't have money or power or can excite his peepee.  The white supremacists were always out there, you just had to look - same with a lot of groups.  The rest of the populous see them and says.. WTF? and they get a bunch of pushback.  They start to fragment and splinter with the truly nutty types being marginalized and the 'you might have a point' types getting assimilated into the mainstream dialog.

Antifa was always out there in it's different incarnations. They've been showing up and shouting down professors and speakers for YEARS.  No one really cared that much until they showed up in larger numbers.  The populous looks at them and says WTF? and they get pushback.  They start to fragment and splinter with the truly nutty types being marginalized and the 'you might have a point' types getting assimilated into the mainstream dialog.

We have no more likelihood of Handmaid's Tail or Nazi USA than we do Communist America.   As Churchill said, ""The Americans Will Always Do the Right Thing…After They Have Exhausted All the Alternatives."  We're just exhausting alternatives at this point.

 

Generally I would agree, but the Conservative right has been involved in soul searching for some time and has evolved into the Tea Party, the Alt Right movement, interest by Libertarians pushed by the racism of Ron Paul, the Paleo-Conservative movement, coupled with the rise of the middle America movement devoted to Trump, evangelicals looking for a home with influence and power, has given us a broad, loosely knit coalition driven by a respect and devotion to Donald Trump. Trump may or may not be a Nazi, but he is an authoritarian with a mission to deliver us to a place where there are no immigrants except the waiters and servers in his clubs, and he is followed by a coalition growing more powerful all the time.

 I have no idea at all if this coalesces and comes together, I think it's dangerous, and I think Trump could have a situation of unintended consequences on his hands. Somehow, I think at some point we will reach deep into our soul and find a way to fix this. We are no longer my father's America, but I think we still have what it takes to fix this.

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5 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Generally I would agree, but the Conservative right has been involved in soul searching for some time and has evolved into the Tea Party, the Alt Right movement, interest by Libertarians pushed by the racism of Ron Paul, the Paleo-Conservative movement, coupled with the rise of the middle America movement devoted to Trump, evangelicals looking for a home with influence and power, has given us a broad, loosely knit coalition driven by a respect and devotion to Donald Trump. Trump may or may not be a Nazi, but he is an authoritarian with a mission to deliver us to a place where there are no immigrants except the waiters and servers in his clubs, and he is followed by a coalition growing more powerful all the time.

 I have no idea at all if this coalesces and comes together, I think it's dangerous, and I think Trump could have a situation of unintended consequences on his hands. Somehow, I think at some point we will reach deep into our soul and find a way to fix this. We are no longer my father's America, but I think we still have what it takes to fix this.

Antifa goes off the rails when they resort to violence.  The other stuff they do is exactly what needs to be done.  Show up, record everything the Nazis, Klansmen, and other white supremacists do, and publicize it.  Put their faces everywhere, identify them, and give the dirty cockroaches no place to hide.  There are WAY more anti-Fascists in this country than there are Nazis, Klansmen and White Supremacists.  Overwhelm them with numbers of people who are there to protect their right to speech, and make that speech very public.  

Otherwise, it just plays into the narrative that these shitbirds and their propagandists are trying to write, leaving us in a time when a woman was killed by Nazis and Foxy News is running a campaign against anti fascists.  

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6 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Antifa goes off the rails when they resort to violence.  The other stuff they do is exactly what needs to be done.  Show up, record everything the Nazis, Klansmen, and other white supremacists do, and publicize it.  Put their faces everywhere, identify them, and give the dirty cockroaches no place to hide.  There are WAY more anti-Fascists in this country than there are Nazis, Klansmen and White Supremacists.  Overwhelm them with numbers of people who are there to protect their right to speech, and make that speech very public.  

Otherwise, it just plays into the narrative that these shitbirds and their propagandists are trying to write, leaving us in a time when a woman was killed by Nazis and Foxy News is running a campaign against anti fascists.  

Yes, they need to figure it out and sooner than later.

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12 hours ago, badlatitude said:

I agree with that, but what do you do when the Nazi movement becomes national? with the help of our alt right president, it has a very good chance of doing exactly that.

What do I do? Not much. I haven't seen any Nazi's.

What should government do? My bias is: nothing, as long as all they're doing is going around saying they are Nazi's. We're allowed to say that here. If you want a place where people are not allowed to say it, there are plenty of relatively nice ones available. I still prefer our system and don't believe we'll be overrun with Nazi's if "we" don't DO SOMETHING.

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18 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

What do I do? Not much. I haven't seen any Nazi's.

What should government do? My bias is: nothing, as long as all they're doing is going around saying they are Nazi's. We're allowed to say that here. If you want a place where people are not allowed to say it, there are plenty of relatively nice ones available. I still prefer our system and don't believe we'll be overrun with Nazi's if "we" don't DO SOMETHING.

I know you think that free speech should be expansive and for the most part, I agree, but there comes a point where it transcends into something else. We haven't reached that point yet and maybe we never will, but there is a line to be crossed, I can't tell you where it is, but you'll probably know it as well. The Germans knew and did nothing and it destroyed everything they knew as a country.

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I agree with both of you. 

Law's one thing.  Cultural norms and individual morality is another thing. 

Punching someone for the content of their speech, as a rule, should be illegal.

Any patriot. called to jury duty, should always vote "not guilty" on nazi-punching.

 

 

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2 hours ago, frenchie said:

I agree with both of you. 

Law's one thing.  Cultural norms and individual morality is another thing. 

Punching someone for the content of their speech, as a rule, should be illegal.

Any patriot. called to jury duty, should always vote "not guilty" on nazi-punching.

 

 

I might not. I'm a fan of jury nullification but not violence.

If I encountered my very first Nazi on the streets of Charlotte County and he pissed me off enough, I guess there's a chance I'd punch him. Jury nullification might be appropriate.

But the Nazi-punching I've seen on videos was by people who apparently showed up where they were for the purpose of punching Nazi's. Sorry, guilty.

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22 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Antifa goes off the rails when they resort to violence.  The other stuff they do is exactly what needs to be done.  Show up, record everything the Nazis, Klansmen, and other white supremacists do, and publicize it.  Put their faces everywhere, identify them, and give the dirty cockroaches no place to hide.  There are WAY more anti-Fascists in this country than there are Nazis, Klansmen and White Supremacists.  Overwhelm them with numbers of people who are there to protect their right to speech, and make that speech very public.  

Otherwise, it just plays into the narrative that these shitbirds and their propagandists are trying to write, leaving us in a time when a woman was killed by Nazis and Foxy News is running a campaign against anti fascists.  

Agreed... When Antifa are not engaging in domestic terrorism they're not a problem. Same goes for Nazis when they are not behaving like Nazis.

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3 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

I might not. I'm a fan of jury nullification but not violence.

If I encountered my very first Nazi on the streets of Charlotte County and he pissed me off enough, I guess there's a chance I'd punch him. Jury nullification might be appropriate.

But the Nazi-punching I've seen on videos was by people who apparently showed up where they were for the purpose of punching Nazi's. Sorry, guilty.

I appreciate the distinction and bottom line here, FWIW.

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On 9/5/2017 at 8:19 AM, Dog said:

Agreed... When Antifa are not engaging in domestic terrorism they're not a problem. Same goes for Nazis when they are not behaving like Nazis.

If punching people holding nazi flags is domestic terrorism, what is it when one of those nazis drives a car into a bunch of people who were protesting the fascists and kills someone?  

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On ‎5‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 4:47 PM, frenchie said:

 

Punching someone for the content of their speech, as a rule, should be illegal.

 

I thought it was illegal

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20 minutes ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

I thought it was illegal

Yup.  It's almost as bad as driving a car into a group of people protesting fascists. 

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6 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

If punching people holding nazi flags is domestic terrorism, what is it when one of those nazis drives a car into a bunch of people who were protesting the fascists and kills someone?  

The predictable result of a manufacturer recklessly providing excessive horsepower and then giving the vehicle an aggressive name. The driver thought "CHARGER" was a suggestion, not a proper noun.

Dodge needs to be held re$pon$ible for what they did!

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2 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

The predictable result of a manufacturer recklessly providing excessive horsepower and then giving the vehicle an aggressive name. The driver thought "CHARGER" was a suggestion, not a proper noun.

Dodge needs to be held re$pon$ible for what they did!

Think you're being ironic?

I was on a pedestrian-rights / cyclist-rights blog the other day, and there's a fair number of people making that sort of argument.  In all seriousness. 

Doesn't help that Dodge's marketing is, in fact... in retrospect...

DHH7vWYUIAEPAEU.jpg

 

7551_RKN_facebook21024x53620170815.jpg

 

DIG6PE0WsAA79qM.jpg

 

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By the way, my business accountant has one. And in the dictionary under "Accountant" it has his picture. He's even named Adam Smith.

How that kind of car/marketing appealed to him is a complete mystery to me.

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West Michigan just had 5 teenagers killed in a Dodge Charger,  It looks like 1 of them drove it off the road and into a tree at 100+ MPH.  So far the drivers ID is being held until proof is complete, but the age of all in the car was 15 - 17.  Doubt anyone of them held a full drivers license to be out at 1AM, no one has a license to drive 50+ over the speed limit.

 

Dodge - Ram - Charge - Challenge - all parts of Team Chrysler automotive names.

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Armed thugs beating down anybody that disagrees with their position are anti fascists? I seem to remember another group in the 1930's that held similar views to ANTIFA. Oh yeah now I remember they were called NAZIs! sound familiar...

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