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    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
dacapo

Vineyard Race 2017

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1 hour ago, Swabbie said:

Not you ?

Yes going multihull

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22 hours ago, dacapo said:

who's in this year?

In with the 57-footer.

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1 hour ago, Rando said:

In with the 57-footer.

Beat of luck

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I'm going on Desperado.  Looking like a great trip out but Saturday is still a bit iffy. Predictwind is providing endless entertainment until Friday.

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Does anyone know if the now mandatory race tracking is going to be on any sort of delay? The race doc's make it clear it's mandatory but don't give much info beyond that.

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Short courses are for pussies  says this sorry ass who hasn't done a Vineyard in 4 years and is jealous of all you on the water this weekend. Oh well. Have fun.

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14 hours ago, CrushDigital said:

I'm going on Desperado.  Looking like a great trip out but Saturday is still a bit iffy. Predictwind is providing endless entertainment until Friday.

naviguesser again?

 

 

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2 hours ago, dacapo said:

naviguesser again?

 

 

Yup, keeps me out of anywhere I could do real damage.  Worst thing I can do at the nav station is blow up the wifi.

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1 hour ago, CrushDigital said:

Yup, keeps me out of anywhere I could do real damage.  Worst thing I can do at the nav station is blow up the wifi.

You should do the online racing against Tragic while sitting at the nav table 

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2 hours ago, Swabbie said:

If you run hard aground and get towed off with a powerboat, should you keep racing?  The SIs  for this race don't specifically address  that scenario. 

Onley if occurres withine three boate lenthe circalle.  Ime am Brass wille coorectte me if am wrongue.                        :)

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3 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

Onley if occurres withine three boate lenthe circalle.  Ime am Brass wille coorectte me if am wrongue.                        :)

...and you have to call "mast abeam".

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Rounded tower faster than i ever had before.  Now I'm paying for it.  Wind sucks right now

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On 9/1/2017 at 11:12 AM, Swabbie said:

If you run hard aground and get towed off with a powerboat, should you keep racing?  The SIs  for this race don't specifically address  that scenario. 

Did you get beat again by the kids?

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3 hours ago, CrushDigital said:

It wasn't really Saturday morning that was the problem for 95% of the fleet.

more like Sat. mid afternoon  or better yet from 1050-1700   then all was bueno......

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7 hours ago, RumLine said:

Did you get beat again by the kids?

Two of the three top PHRF boats were youth teams so Swabbie can't be happy.

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1 hour ago, Sent191 said:

Two of the three top PHRF boats were youth teams so Swabbie can't be happy.

Does it even count if they're in a Volvo boat?

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2 minutes ago, farrfreak said:

Anyone gonna post a race report? Or is that to old school...

one of the kids can  ;-)

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I’ll post a race report.  It was a nice race.  This is from the perspective onboard threebeans, a modified SC37.


The leg out out the Sound was beautiful sailing.  Some angle and pressure changes kept us on our toes, and it was largely very fast.  We had Shepard’s Pie for dinner.  Tasty.  We went out The Race with a partial moon, plenty of breeze, and fair current.  We stayed north, expecting a right shift which materialized starting at midnight.


We rounded the Tower at 3am which is the earliest I’ve ever been there.  Meanwhile, on a big cat, my brother was already back in the Sound and headed for the finish and  breakfast ashore.  That was kind of demoralizing!  I need to buy a bigger boat.


Back to reality, with the mere mortals in monohulls, we had a close reach to Block.  The pressure held but went forward and we continued a close reach back towards re-entry.  I chose the Sluiceway to prove, once again, that I suck at math.  Should have gone through the Gut; was trying to save a bit of adverse current but sailed a little extra distance, so it did nothing.  Re-entering LIS, we had the two boats we wanted to beat behind us nicely.


Then the wind died.  One of those two boats went to Long Island, the other went to Connecticut.  We covered the wrong one.  The other one slipped past and ultimately beat us.  Good job Partnership.


When the breeze filled back in, we had an awesome run to Stamford.  Mac and cheese with thick cut bacon for dinner.  The fun meter was pegged.  We had jammed our jib furler by then, and the jib was half wrapped around the forestay and halfway up.  Ugly.  We were not going back upwind again, so the pucker factor was a little high since it was going to be kite, or bust.  We held the kite to the nun inside the Cows and finished under main alone at 10:45pm.  Fastest Vineyard Race for me ever.


Other than the drifting, which kinda sucked, but which is really no surprise for LIS, it was a really fun race.  Who cares about ratings and finish positions.  It was mostly champagne sailing.  This is me driving and my 15-year old son trimming main.  It does not get any better than this!


9GfVn_9-LE0tmG9EF32Fx8AG8jfFuDTJZoaapTDTFqeHzYceIwMe8L5Vu53K-DKoMlmBQyBacQsjFdZ8DwgozFGyJQLofF1vLOC_hsqIns4uBVVIUa0gfTgSPH58u1G1IGpe4hUCcYTcw1sZZVbyrjqacRV4FE1kbVjQRpzFFy3qYiyPapWGnCJfFgU85wKNlZE0M5rXOZZw8eJa4eIIURQ4JKL5CDEojsrbq2TP2-n8SohutQpIlI-oxBZvfQKpAWSKOAo-5wmWFATp5Ik7Y3jbsxzXdyxl0LFeZ9wWzZhBnSf4HNGHTv0alLtpXcbye99v90h5h6PsiD_g5CO5YTG-Y44NPQSarQmAUSlZOiN6XuR8wi5E5dPu1rLS1Yd0hOL49OrnnFDhqn0SpPzls43UfYKinM23zdXH8ZnkThH8AgGRqSZBMoLweNzTFhfmdacZ8UZWPTBRmqeDHhml2wVSA5i5eu9NzfaY5QVpJPeBrKrejXqDHvIaZT99R_KYCsvDKD4H2XsjSy4_t-eQvDJP2IJ2Bp2RfQdHqMP_4apvxMFh6okUMaSxabvAOgyle-moAg_CoY8FI1ZEgqdmIevpAEfAuSYJ11VgxY-0r71yxpf7shOicg=w713-h950-no

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7 minutes ago, treef said:

I’ll post a race report.  It was a nice race.  This is from the perspective onboard threebeans, a modified SC37.


The leg out out the Sound was beautiful sailing.  Some angle and pressure changes kept us on our toes, and it was largely very fast.  We had Shepard’s Pie for dinner.  Tasty.  We went out The Race with a partial moon, plenty of breeze, and fair current.  We stayed north, expecting a right shift which materialized starting at midnight.


We rounded the Tower at 3am which is the earliest I’ve ever been there.  Meanwhile, on a big cat, my brother was already back in the Sound and headed for the finish and  breakfast ashore.  That was kind of demoralizing!  I need to buy a bigger boat.


Back to reality, with the mere mortals in monohulls, we had a close reach to Block.  The pressure held but went forward and we continued a close reach back towards re-entry.  I chose the Sluiceway to prove, once again, that I suck at math.  Should have gone through the Gut; was trying to save a bit of adverse current but sailed a little extra distance, so it did nothing.  Re-entering LIS, we had the two boats we wanted to beat behind us nicely.


Then the wind died.  One of those two boats went to Long Island, the other went to Connecticut.  We covered the wrong one.  The other one slipped past and ultimately beat us.  Good job Partnership.


When the breeze filled back in, we had an awesome run to Stamford.  Mac and cheese with thick cut bacon for dinner.  The fun meter was pegged.  We had jammed our jib furler by then, and the jib was half wrapped around the forestay and halfway up.  Ugly.  We were not going back upwind again, so the pucker factor was a little high since it was going to be kite, or bust.  We held the kite to the nun inside the Cows and finished under main alone at 10:45pm.  Fastest Vineyard Race for me ever.


Other than the drifting, which kinda sucked, but which is really no surprise for LIS, it was a really fun race.  Who cares about ratings and finish positions.  It was mostly champagne sailing.  This is me driving and my 15-year old son trimming main.  It does not get any better than this!


9GfVn_9-LE0tmG9EF32Fx8AG8jfFuDTJZoaapTDTFqeHzYceIwMe8L5Vu53K-DKoMlmBQyBacQsjFdZ8DwgozFGyJQLofF1vLOC_hsqIns4uBVVIUa0gfTgSPH58u1G1IGpe4hUCcYTcw1sZZVbyrjqacRV4FE1kbVjQRpzFFy3qYiyPapWGnCJfFgU85wKNlZE0M5rXOZZw8eJa4eIIURQ4JKL5CDEojsrbq2TP2-n8SohutQpIlI-oxBZvfQKpAWSKOAo-5wmWFATp5Ik7Y3jbsxzXdyxl0LFeZ9wWzZhBnSf4HNGHTv0alLtpXcbye99v90h5h6PsiD_g5CO5YTG-Y44NPQSarQmAUSlZOiN6XuR8wi5E5dPu1rLS1Yd0hOL49OrnnFDhqn0SpPzls43UfYKinM23zdXH8ZnkThH8AgGRqSZBMoLweNzTFhfmdacZ8UZWPTBRmqeDHhml2wVSA5i5eu9NzfaY5QVpJPeBrKrejXqDHvIaZT99R_KYCsvDKD4H2XsjSy4_t-eQvDJP2IJ2Bp2RfQdHqMP_4apvxMFh6okUMaSxabvAOgyle-moAg_CoY8FI1ZEgqdmIevpAEfAuSYJ11VgxY-0r71yxpf7shOicg=w713-h950-no

LI or CT. ?     we stayed on LI side of sound hoping the wind filled in from south before it got to the north

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9 minutes ago, dacapo said:

LI or CT. ?     we stayed on LI side of sound hoping the wind filled in from south before it got to the north

We covered the boat that went to LI but split our chances and hung out a little towards the middle, trying to hedge it somewhat.  The boat that went to CT looked terrible at first, then looked like a rock star.

I'm sure the local wags will weigh in saying that the remnants of a hurricane will touch down first to the north.... :rolleyes:   Frankly, I didn't have a clue what was going to happen.  I did have a Bud Light and a cigar, so at least it was a pleasant drifter.

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The gut looked attractive but, north was definitely the winner here. Saw a few boats go through the sluice. Interesting move.

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1 hour ago, fourpoints said:

little late, but I'll add my $0.02 for a post race report.  I was again on Gemini as the Naviguessor, but unlike previous races we had a full watch complement without me so I had no standing watch schedule (which also meant both watches expected me to be awake the whole time)....   

After a twist on the set at the start (Thanks Stamford Advocate for the photos /s) we had a nice reach with the A3 out to around New Haven in some unexpected extra pressure off the CT shore north of the rhumb line that didn't make it down to most of the fleet, got rolled by a few gunboats though managed to make one of them go leeward and split us and Charlotte who was a couple boat lengths ahead and 100yds to leeward which got them pinned to leeward of us for a few miles unable to pass, and after that a poor cornflower boat we rolled between us was the last we saw of Charlotte for the race.  Shortly after that we headed south a bit towards the gut to avoid the slightly lighter pressure forecast from roughly Faulkner's to Fishers and picked up the start of the ebb current (with several changes between the C0, A2 and A3 along the way), and carried it out up the inside of the islands to valiant rock for the extra current push, which seemed to help us leg out nicely over the boats that went south through the gut. Carried that current out to just past the divergence point where it dies out and maintained good pressure to the tower with the last few miles on a not very tight beat under the "interracials" (aka "white" sails that are mostly just carbon black), and rounded the tower at 4:10am, also my fastest rounding ever, about 3 minutes behind Young American.  Somehow during that leg we even managed to roll Madison, which I can't explain beyond maybe they were under reduced sail area for night time (we never had to reduce sail area until the last couple of hundred yards to the finish).

After rounding we immediately put back up the kite and had a nice angle a little east of the SE corner of block.  Several boats decided to sail way north of rhumb line, which I don't understand as the forecast called for a lift which combined with the flood current eventually brought us right to the tip of the island on a single gybe, and by morning as we approached the tip of Block, off our starboard hip about a half mile behind us was Young American.

Knowing we had no chance of making the current anywhere into LIS I thought about diving down by Gardners but the crew concluded covering Young American trumped all else at the moment since we were worried about protecting the NE Lighthouse series and the Sagola trophy against them, and as a result missed the opportunity to get into the current shadow of the Gull's and got stuck in BI sound when the wind shut down (about 1mi behind them, couldn't keep up and the damn 105 kept legging out in the light air).  After several hours of me asking people on deck "why can't you make the boat go any faster?" we finally worked our way out of the current a bit and started making way.  Picked up the start of the flood right as we entered the sluiceway and carried it for the entire duration of the flood towards Stamford averaging about 1-1.25kts of extra VMG for that ~6 hour leg. :-D

Between New Haven and Bridgeport the winds really started to build, and the guy on the helm needed a break so I took it right before it built from 16 up to 19-22kts on the port quarter which made for some exciting moments as we were still under full sail with the A2 up, and double digit boat speeds became the more the norm than the exception (it's a big heavy Hanse after all, 11-12kts is asking a lot!).  

Once we approached Eaton's neck the wind shifted a bit and we couldn't carry the A2 anymore and clear the point, plus we wanted to avoid the current rip, so we dropped the kite and went full sail wing on wing with the 145% genoa (off the whisker pole) in 20-22kts of wind, and proceeded to hit upper 12's kts STW on course for the cows.   As we approached the cows another boat (name withheld to protect the guilty) came in from the south just as we dropped the pole and gybed the main (in 22kts of wind).  We completed the gybe onto starboard and rounded the cows, and the other boat established overlap a few seconds after we cleared the buoy, they then inside the channel proceeded to try and push us up and wouldn't give us room to sail our course to the next red.  We tried to furl the jib so we weren't overpowered so much, but of course the furler jammed (so we thought, turns out just overtightened the drum and ran out of line), we ended up pointing the bow into the wind to let them get clear before we either had a collision or they ran us into the rocks, and finished just before 1:30am.   We weren't in their division this time and they owed us massive time anyway so there was no point in filing a protest, but we're pretty sure they did it because we both came into the same finish line battling for line honors in the same division on the Block Island race earlier this year and he was upset we got the gun by ~12 feet...   Young American was still ahead of us, but not far enough ahead we didn't still correct over them, I suspect they couldn't carry their chute nearly as long as we could in the heavy air and we made up a lot of ground that way (or at least didn't loose any).

Once we got the sails down and everything was secured we headed back out to dodge the rest of the boats coming in the channel to finish, and then turned directly into the 25+ kts and rapidly building seas to motor back to Cedar Point.  Engine at 3k RPM with the autopilot steering because no one could see for more than a few seconds looking into the driving spray, including the guy who brought ski goggles, we were making 2.5-3 kts of SOG and launching what felt like most of the boat airborne off the tops of the waves, and anyone down below was careful to protect their head against sudden contact with whatever was above them as they lifted off the deck, at least for those brave enough to stay down below.  At least one person was on the rail chucking dinner overboard, and I having slept a total of 2 hours since we left the dock laid down in the middle of the cockpit and passed out for an hour before getting cold and going below to pass out on top of the spinnakers (because there were literally the first thing I could find to fall down on and be asleep).    Came into the harbor with 8 ft rollers in the harbor doing 4.5kts SOG under bare poles near dead low tide, and was woken up by someone to navigate our way through the channel to the club, which apparently I did for the first couple minutes while still asleep as I have no memory of getting up or getting to the nav station, getting the charts up on the B&G, my phone, AND my laptop, and even going so far as entering a waypoint into the channel for them to steer to... maybe I should have had one more 5 hour energy drink after all.   Once in the basin we tied up on the working dock because as tired as we were we weren't about to attempt to dock her in the tight slip with 25-30kts of wind showing on the instruments.  It was only then we looked at the scores and polished off 2 full bottles of rum sitting at the dock :)

 

Some rating. 

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Just looked that up. Does your boat owner know you're publicly bashing the former commodore of Stamford Yacht Club? 

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3 hours ago, Swabbie said:

Section C 

MISCONDUCT

69

MISCONDUCT

69.1

Obligation not to Commit Misconduct; Resolution

A competitor, boat owner or support person shall not commit an act of misconduct.

Misconduct is:

conduct that is a breach of good manners, a breach of good sportsmanship, or unethical behaviour; or

conduct that may bring the sport into disrepute.

The dickswab wants to talk about manners.

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On 9/5/2017 at 9:21 PM, bodega87 said:

Does it even count if they're in a Volvo boat?

can I protest the tug/barge that was leaving Stamford Harbor at the exact moment we were entering a around 12kts. aimed right at the finish line .............;-)

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11 hours ago, Swabbie said:
 

And you just publicly called out Hiro, one of the most honorable and respected people in the entire sport for breaking several rules to the point of an iminent collision  which I will bet my house never happened.  That takes giant  4 knot German furniture barge   shitbox balls.  You didn't protest a guy that took you head to wind between the Cows and the finish in the middle of the night.  I call bullshit and you should delete that and apologize.  I can promise you he's not holding a grudge from Block Island or even remember who the fuck you are  

Protest or shut  the fuck up    

Douchebag  

I've been informed that conversations took place sometime after I left the party, he said he didn't know he was pushing us up out of the channel, he thought he gave room and said he didn't hear our owner yelling to go down and give room, and that all he thought he heard was about our furler stuck. And come on, the reference to the BI race finish was tongue in cheek, which everyone knows is the standard for virtually any comment made on this site...

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1 hour ago, fourpoints said:

 the reference to the BI race finish was tongue in cheek, which everyone knows is the standard for virtually any comment made on this site...

we no that, butte howes dose you asa newbie?

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A little late but this thread has morphed into the ALIR thread. And isn't that just a continuation of every other thread about distance racing on Long Island Sound. 

It takes incredible skill to pull this off every time.

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35 minutes ago, CrushDigital said:

A little late but this thread has morphed into the ALIR thread. And isn't that just a continuation of every other thread about distance racing on Long Island Sound. 

It takes incredible skill to pull this off every time.

It's a beautiful thing isn't it?

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1 hour ago, CrushDigital said:

A little late but this thread has morphed into the ALIR thread. And isn't that just a continuation of every other thread about distance racing on Long Island Sound. 

It takes incredible skill to pull this off every time.

Not if the rating the boat has is a gift.

 

Just sayin

     And

Just quoting A-Nu-Start

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1 hour ago, CrushDigital said:

A little late but this thread has morphed into the ALIR thread. And isn't that just a continuation of every other thread about distance racing on Long Island Sound. 

It takes incredible skill to pull this off every time.

years of practice

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27 minutes ago, Swabbie said:

Maybe  it just takes a boat taking a weight credit at 1,440 pounds with 9 guys (avg 160 pounds). They must be on protein shakes. 

http://www.photoboatgallery.net/p791110734/h94EC5E24#h94ec5e24

Would you be willing to come to the club for a weigh in FourPoints? 

I heard the guy trimming main is nicknamed 'Waffles' 

 

 

 

I love the fact that  no one is hiking, they look like they are out on a Sunday afternoon cruise

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How did the base rating for Gemini go from 90sec/nm in 2013 to 114sec/nm in 2017?  I mean, I could use an extra 24sec too!

1440lbs / 9 = 160lbs average.  Looks unlikely from that photo. 

Is the owner aware that he can change his cert once a year?  I had a weight credit on my cert this year until the ALIR, when I removed it for an extra crew. 

 

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2 hours ago, MaxDog said:

How did the base rating for Gemini go from 90sec/nm in 2013 to 114sec/nm in 2017?  I mean, I could use an extra 24sec too!

 

How does PHRF in that area work? Is it an open board discussion or closed? 

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The meetings are open, but lightly attended.  The minutes are available but aren't searchable, so one must read them all to find out what might be in there. 

I suspect that the committee's apparent confusion over what a the proper rating should be has to do with the fact that there is exactly one Hanse 375 in the US Sailing big book of PHRF ratings, and you guessed it, that one boat is from LIS.  But I haven't read all the meeting minutes, so I could be way off.

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11 hours ago, MaxDog said:

How did the base rating for Gemini go from 90sec/nm in 2013 to 114sec/nm in 2017?  I mean, I could use an extra 24sec too!

1440lbs / 9 = 160lbs average.  Looks unlikely from that photo. 

Is the owner aware that he can change his cert once a year?  I had a weight credit on my cert this year until the ALIR, when I removed it for an extra crew. 

 

A very influential PHRF comm member is a member of the same YC, to help enhance the corruption.

You have integrity!

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8 hours ago, A-NU-START said:

How does PHRF in that area work? Is it an open board discussion or closed? 

Don't get me started, it works like the the US Gov't use to work before Jan 20 2017.

CORRUPTION.

If you are part of the good old boys club and they like you, you can get anything you want, and god forbid you point something out them that illegal about another and they don't like you, the issue gets swept under the rug 

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In my area, a large rating change will likely result in some future readjustments as the performance with the new rating becomes clear. 

How much does this Gemini guy win? 

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3 hours ago, jesposito said:

Don't get me started, it works like the the US Gov't use to work before Jan 20 2017.

CORRUPTION.

If you are part of the good old boys club and they like you, you can get anything you want, and god forbid you point something out them that illegal about another and they don't like you, the issue gets swept under the rug 

Drain the swamp Eastchester Bay!

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1 hour ago, Swabbie said:

I don't completely agree with Espo's tin foil hat conspiracy theory (although I have seen some odd things).  

You  can see prior changes on the certificate and match it up to those committee minutes. It is a fairly transparent process. It isn't easy to rate a one-off boat   
Today's base rating is 114. And of course I am sure there was a lot more committee discussion than is reflected in the minutes.  But I must say if nothing else, the optics are not terrific 

Minutes Aug 2013
Gemini‐ Hanse 375 James Coffman, owner, questioned why the Hanse 370 is 105 & the Hanse 375 is 90.
In review of both boats, the Hanse 375 was raised to 105

Ratings tend to go up quicker when changed than they are adjusted downward.This is why everyone has run out and ordered Hanse 375's for 2018 delivery.

Fourpoints said the boat was regularly hitting 'upper 12's' with a winged out jib and usually in double digits. That dosnt sound like a typical Phrf 114 furniture  shitbox

 

 

 

 

Many of the Hanse boats have ratings that are all over the place.  The 370 mentioned in the minutes does show up at 105, but also at 90, or even 78 (IIRC , don't have access to the book here).

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We can argue about ratings all day, but I find the crew weight to be a much bigger issue.  114 wasn't good enough so they took a weight credit for another 3 seconds.   In the photo above the crew is nine adult males.  Can you comment on that fourpoints?  Do you guys average 160?  How about you personally?  From your mast climbing photo you (if that is you) look quite trim, what do you weigh?  It's been decades since I was under 200, so I have no idea what 160 looks like.

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1 hour ago, Swabbie said:

I don't completely agree with Espo's tin foil hat conspiracy theory (although I have seen some odd things).  

You  can see prior changes on the certificate and match it up to those committee minutes. It is a fairly transparent process. It isn't easy to rate a one-off boat   
Today's base rating is 114. And of course I am sure there was a lot more committee discussion than is reflected in the minutes.  But I must say if nothing else, the optics are not terrific 

Minutes Aug 2013
Gemini‐ Hanse 375 James Coffman, owner, questioned why the Hanse 370 is 105 & the Hanse 375 is 90.
In review of both boats, the Hanse 375 was raised to 105

Ratings tend to go up quicker when changed than they are adjusted downward.This is why everyone has run out and ordered Hanse 375's for 2018 delivery.

Fourpoints said the boat was regularly hitting 'upper 12's' with a winged out jib and usually in double digits. That dosnt sound like a typical Phrf 114 furniture  shitbox

 

 

 

 

Regarding Gemini.  That change in Aug 2013 seem plausible.  A like boat was rated slower so change the Hanse 375 rating to match the Hanse 370.  I guess they could have gone the other way and change the 370 but as you point out that is hardly done.  

But the change in Sept 2015 is hard to understand.  Quoting from PHRF minutes, "Hanse 375 – from floor. Base 105. Hanse 370e has similar dimensions and also rates 105. +9 for both. Base 105 -> 114."

It gives no reason why the gave each boat +9 seconds.  Based on what they did in 2013 they should have kept that rating at 105.

Full disclosure I have a dog in this fight.  Involved in the YA program and the kids are like WTF.  Here is a boat that has a 3' longer waterline than a 105,  and the J/105 gives them 21 seconds a mile.  We tell them welcome to the world of PHRF.  Not a great world.

 

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15 minutes ago, robalex117 said:

Regarding Gemini.  That change in Aug 2013 seem plausible.  A like boat was rated slower so change the Hanse 375 rating to match the Hanse 370.  I guess they could have gone the other way and change the 370 but as you point out that is hardly done.  

But the change in Sept 2015 is hard to understand.  Quoting from PHRF minutes, "Hanse 375 – from floor. Base 105. Hanse 370e has similar dimensions and also rates 105. +9 for both. Base 105 -> 114."

It gives no reason why the gave each boat +9 seconds.  Based on what they did in 2013 they should have kept that rating at 105.

Full disclosure I have a dog in this fight.  Involved in the YA program and the kids are like WTF.  Here is a boat that has a 3' longer waterline than a 105,  and the J/105 gives them 21 seconds a mile.  We tell them welcome to the world of PHRF.  Not a great world.

 

Let's not get started on the 105 rating....

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14 minutes ago, Salvaged Rep said:

Let's not get started on the 105 rating....

I hear you, the 105 has a rating it can sail to.

But if PHRF is going to rate any boat correctly,  don't you think it would be boats that race in one design configuation and have twenty+ boats with PHRF ratings.  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, robalex117 said:

I hear you, the 105 has a rating it can sail to.

But if PHRF is going to get anything right don't you think it would be boats that race in one design configuation and have twenty+ boats with PHRF ratings.  

 

 

You'd think so. I tend to think the 105 rating is quite favorable on LIS, albeit not as favorable as gemini.

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1 hour ago, robalex117 said:

<snip>

Full disclosure I have a dog in this fight.  Involved in the YA program and the kids are like WTF.  Here is a boat that has a 3' longer waterline than a 105,  and the J/105 gives them 21 seconds a mile.  We tell them welcome to the world of PHRF.  Not a great world.

 

With all due respect to robalex117, this kind of thing only perpetuates the “PHRF sucks” mentality, and drives down participation across the sport with negative attitudes.

The YA program is an amazing effort and has had incredible results.  But to impart the idea to the YA kids that they “lost” to Gemini because of a gift rating sends the wrong message.  YA was beaten by another boat on a 36 hour race with widely disparate conditions. Sometimes a race is decided on by conditions, sometimes luck, sometimes skill and sometimes rating.  It is what it is.  It's part of the game.

PHRF is what it is too, an imperfect, observed performance system meant to rate widely disparate boats over widely disparate conditions, which it does mostly correctly most of the time, but incorrectly some of the time.  Frankly it’s overall accuracy is no different than any other rating system that has been devised.

Complaining about it here doesn’t do much except increase awareness or to let someone vent.  Adding an observation about a boat's performance that appears contrary to its rating to the agenda at the next committee meeting might do something.  At least there is that opportunity, unlike the black box rating systems where you get what you get.  There is no adjustment in those systems when a rating is off.  PHRF allows, at least in theory, that option.

I know this site is rife with criticism for the YRA-LIS PHRF committee, but I’ll stick my neck out and disagree.  They do a good job with what they have.  They may not always be right, but in my view and in my experience, they take their responsibility seriously, and they work diligently to be right most of the time.  

It’s worth noting that we are voting with our entries.  In 2009, there were 10 PHRF boats and 54 IRC boats on the Vineyard course (which as I recall was shortened but those were the entry totals).  In 2017, there were 43 PHRF boats and 26 IRC boats on the Vineyard course.  If PHRF sucks so much, why are IRC entries dropping while PHRF entries increase?  Because IRC sucks more?  Or because, possibly, PHRF sucks less than the alternative? And if that's the case, maybe we could work on making the system more accurate, with feedback based on data not emotion?

I can’t answer that so I am going to go sailing tonight.

Cheers,
Treef
 

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3 hours ago, Salvaged Rep said:

You'd think so. I tend to think the 105 rating is quite favorable on LIS, albeit not as favorable as gemini.

Thanks to me it's at 93, it was 105 before I got it lowered should be 87 like the rest of the country

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11 hours ago, jesposito said:

Thanks to me it's at 93, it was 105 before I got it lowered should be 87 like the rest of the country

BS

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13 hours ago, treef said:

With all due respect to robalex117, this kind of thing only perpetuates the “PHRF sucks” mentality, and drives down participation across the sport with negative attitudes.

The YA program is an amazing effort and has had incredible results.  But to impart the idea to the YA kids that they “lost” to Gemini because of a gift rating sends the wrong message.  YA was beaten by another boat on a 36 hour race with widely disparate conditions. Sometimes a race is decided on by conditions, sometimes luck, sometimes skill and sometimes rating.  It is what it is.  It's part of the game.

PHRF is what it is too, an imperfect, observed performance system meant to rate widely disparate boats over widely disparate conditions, which it does mostly correctly most of the time, but incorrectly some of the time.  Frankly it’s overall accuracy is no different than any other rating system that has been devised.

Complaining about it here doesn’t do much except increase awareness or to let someone vent.  Adding an observation about a boat's performance that appears contrary to its rating to the agenda at the next committee meeting might do something.  At least there is that opportunity, unlike the black box rating systems where you get what you get.  There is no adjustment in those systems when a rating is off.  PHRF allows, at least in theory, that option.

I know this site is rife with criticism for the YRA-LIS PHRF committee, but I’ll stick my neck out and disagree.  They do a good job with what they have.  They may not always be right, but in my view and in my experience, they take their responsibility seriously, and they work diligently to be right most of the time.  

It’s worth noting that we are voting with our entries.  In 2009, there were 10 PHRF boats and 54 IRC boats on the Vineyard course (which as I recall was shortened but those were the entry totals).  In 2017, there were 43 PHRF boats and 26 IRC boats on the Vineyard course.  If PHRF sucks so much, why are IRC entries dropping while PHRF entries increase?  Because IRC sucks more?  Or because, possibly, PHRF sucks less than the alternative? And if that's the case, maybe we could work on making the system more accurate, with feedback based on data not emotion?

I can’t answer that so I am going to go sailing tonight.

Cheers,
Treef
 

Not to hate on YA. I am a massive advocate of the program, but one youth boat won their class in both Block and Vineyard this year....

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4 hours ago, Sent191 said:

Not to hate on YA. I am a massive advocate of the program, but one youth boat won their class in both Block and Vineyard this year....

I think you are referring to Desperado, a program that has really gotten that boat up to speed and are getting great results.  Congrats on their good sailing.  

Desperado does fit the YRA rules of a youth boat and  and I support that and am a fan of their program,  I had one of their sailors camp out at my house before and after the  Vineyard,  but YA is a different program.  YA has kids 14-17 years old sailing against the college age men and women from Webb, KP and SUNY.  We are fine with it but not all youth boats are full of youth.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, robalex117 said:

I think you are referring to Desperado, a program that has really gotten that boat up to speed and are getting great results.  Congrats on their good sailing.  

Desperado does fit the YRA rules of a youth boat and  and I support that and am a fan of their program,  I had one of their sailors camp out at my house before and after the  Vineyard,  but YA is a different program.  YA has kids 14-17 years old sailing against the college age men and women from Webb, KP and SUNY.  We are fine with it but not all youth boats are full of youth.

 

 

 

Not sure that I can agree that the Webb, KP,  and SUNY boats aren't REALLY youth boats. They are still full of young people competing in high level races that they may not otherwise have had the oppertunty for if it weren't for the YCC. Probably even harder for those programs to find time/resources to compete. The whole point of the youth category is to encourage a transition into post junior/college sailing. To say that those boats are youth because they are older than the kids in your program takes away from the large accomplishments they have all made.

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9 hours ago, Sent191 said:

BS

Before you open your trap, look into the facts, Douche

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2 hours ago, Swabbie said:

Robalex,  I agree with your last sentence. To be fair  and if you are going to bring that up, YA often  has a Cat3  sailmaker/coach on board. Also had a professional Volvo ocean racer, and their own dedicated club owned program boat.  Thats all great and its a wonderful program, but not many club youth programs have that support and funding. 

Now back on target -  Fourpoints.... Gemini's PHRF certificate, certified and signed by owner(s) states the  boat has an added transom door/swim platform which weighs 50 pounds.  Handicappers figure permanent modifications into base ratings. Its assumed that's why the owner pointed it out.  Looking at  photos,  that modification is difficult to find. Is it a stealth door?   Its a fair point to make that change should have been reported to  the PHRF Committee.   

 quote

Notes and Modifications

Boat comes with an open transom. We have designed a fiberglass bench seat/folding swim platform which will attach to the stern enclosing the transom. this feature probably weighs 50lbs.

unquote

 For reference  convenience  here are the regs.  http://yralis.org/sites/default/files/YRA_PHRF_REGS_2017.pdf

Pages 30-31  - Owners Obligation to Disclose Alterations

Article 1.  Transom alterations are specifically addressed 
Page 7 - Last paragraph.  Its a doozy!   

The door is see through;)

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11 hours ago, Swabbie said:

Now back on target -  Fourpoints.... Gemini's PHRF certificate, certified and signed by owner(s) states the  boat has an added transom door/swim platform which weighs 50 pounds.  Handicappers figure permanent modifications into base ratings. Its assumed that's why the owner pointed it out.  Looking at  photos,  that modification is difficult to find. Is it a stealth door?   Its a fair point to make that change should have been reported to  the PHRF Committee.   

 quote

Notes and Modifications

Boat comes with an open transom. We have designed a fiberglass bench seat/folding swim platform which will attach to the stern enclosing the transom. this feature probably weighs 50lbs.

unquote

 For reference  convenience  here are the regs.  http://yralis.org/sites/default/files/YRA_PHRF_REGS_2017.pdf

Pages 30-31  - Owners Obligation to Disclose Alterations

Article 1.  Transom alterations are specifically addressed 
Page 7 - Last paragraph.  Its a doozy!   

Swabbie,  I like where your mind is at.... but you need a few facts.
Issue 1. Overweight - picture tell thousand words.
Issue 2. Invisible boat parts. So maybe there is no credit for these parts but this guy knows the rules. Knows them well and "...have carefully analyzed all the rules in an attempt to optimize the boat's performance for the rating."
For 1 & 2 enjoy the reading: 
http://www.myhanse.com/handicap-racing-certificates-phrf-for-gemini_topic8520.html

Issue 3. Gemini's certificate is about being the "same" as a 370. Is there a reason why a 370 is rated 105 and the 375 is rated 90? Is there a difference between 370 vs 375? 
Hull and Sail maybe be the same but no one is looking at the keel. How does one PHRF Committee not consult with another PHRF Committee on something like this? 
http://www.phrfne.org/html/boats/hanse37.htm

Issue 4: What do other 375 rate? Maybe an IRC comparison will prove that 114 is reasonable for Gemini. Sadly all the other 375 I can find rates around 1.000 which is sub 100 PHRF territory. 

Fourpoints does it still feel like a clean win?

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The 375 appears similar to the Dehler 38.  The Dehler has a slightly larger rig 760sqft vs 735sqft, but similar draft, displacement, and hull form.  YRALIS rates the Dehler at 78, which I think is a bit low, but there is no way these boats should be 36sec apart.

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21 hours ago, Salvaged Rep said:

Not sure that I can agree that the Webb, KP,  and SUNY boats aren't REALLY youth boats. They are still full of young people competing in high level races that they may not otherwise have had the oppertunty for if it weren't for the YCC. Probably even harder for those programs to find time/resources to compete. The whole point of the youth category is to encourage a transition into post junior/college sailing. To say that those boats are youth because they are older than the kids in your program takes away from the large accomplishments they have all made.

I fully agree in the premise to get more boats out sailing who ever is crewing, and respect the other YCC entered teams  accomplishments.

We can respectfully disagree with the term youth.   I do not consider college age kids youth, I would call them young adults, or adults.  Once you are over 18 you are in "real life," go to college if you are lucky, fight wars for our freedom or start working full time.  When you do bad things you go to the big house not the little house.

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22 hours ago, Swabbie said:

Robalex,  I agree with your last sentence. To be fair  and if you are going to bring that up, YA often  has a Cat3  sailmaker/coach on board. Also had a professional Volvo ocean racer, and their own dedicated club owned program boat.  Thats all great and its a wonderful program, but not many club youth programs have that support and funding. 

Now back on target -  Fourpoints.... Gemini's PHRF certificate, certified and signed by owner(s) states the  boat has an added transom door/swim platform which weighs 50 pounds.  Handicappers figure permanent modifications into base ratings. Its assumed that's why the owner pointed it out.  Looking at  photos,  that modification is difficult to find. Is it a stealth door?   Its a fair point to make that change should have been reported to  the PHRF Committee.   

 quote

Notes and Modifications

Boat comes with an open transom. We have designed a fiberglass bench seat/folding swim platform which will attach to the stern enclosing the transom. this feature probably weighs 50lbs.

unquote

 For reference  convenience  here are the regs.  http://yralis.org/sites/default/files/YRA_PHRF_REGS_2017.pdf

Pages 30-31  - Owners Obligation to Disclose Alterations

Article 1.  Transom alterations are specifically addressed 
Page 7 - Last paragraph.  Its a doozy!   

Swabbie,

Just to set the record straight regarding the YA program sailing with pros.  Yes we did sail with one pro on the Bermuda race, plus myself and another parent.  Yes we did sail with a Cat3 on the Vineyard this year  since our regular parent coach had to do a college drop off.  That is TWO races out of about 300 race days over the past 4 years when the YA team sailed with a pro.  

If anybody has any specific questions regarding the YA program we would be glad to share and would love to help replicate to other clubs.  Quite honestly the problem is not the funding, it is getting the committed volunteers to put in the time to make the program work year after year.

 

 

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On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 1:42 AM, MaxDog said:

fThe meetings are open, but lightly attended.  The minutes are available but aren't searchable, so one must read them all to find out what might be in there. 

I suspect that the committee's apparent confusion over what a the proper rating should be has to do with the fact that there is exactly one Hanse 375 in the US Sailing big book of PHRF ratings, and you guessed it, that one boat is from LIS.  But I haven't read all the meeting minutes, so I could be way off.

To suggest that the PHRF meetings are open is a vast  stretch of reality. Yes YRA members may attend during presentations to the committee. Deliberations are closed door. In fact, the president of the YRA has in the past been asked to leave the room while the "committee" deliberates. There is little that is "open" about the process. It is generally a "closed" matter from the get-go. The committee, steered by some long entrenched members, holds hearings as a matter of due diligence and appearance. It is long held that the decisions are a foregone conclusion to change ratings. Deliberation phase only serves to "refine" what the changes may shall be.

PHRF committee would be well served to have limits on terms of service.

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He was the president when he was asked to leave the room.

Yes, at times members of the committee leave the room and I know the chair has done so on a number of occasions. However and with that said, this is in a way wrong headed. By the same logic all sailmakers should leave the room. The people we want in the room are the ones on the line. Now if they choose to recuse when the vote comes about because of personal reasons, then that is their prerogative but I want people in the room who know what they are talking about first hand. And I want them voting their conscience. If they do not have the integrity to be impartial, then they should not have been considered for the position in the first place.

There does not need to be a protest to disqualify the offending boat. When someone signs  their certificate they are agree to abide by the class association rules. That class association in this case is The PHRF Class. The Class Measurer reserves the righto revoke the certificate of any boat that is sailing outside the class rules. As I understand it this is the actual matter at hand. This boat was sailing outside of the restrictions stated on her rating certificate and as such  is in violation of class rules. Her certificate should be revoked Immediately. From the point in time that the class measurer can ascertain this boat was out of compliance, she the moment she is out of compliance, those finishing positions should not count for either the particular event nor seasonal standings.

Now you state that the owner is in contention for seasonals and can thus sympathize. NO HE IS NOT IN CONTENTION. He is not for the simple reason he was sailing his boat outside of the restrictions on weight he agreed to. Further, it is my understanding that he is contending that The Vineyard Race NOR allowed him to do so. Specifically Paragraph 1.7 allows for 1 more body than the number stated on the certificate. Fly in that ointment is this. PHRF is not done by a specific number, but by crew weight. So it is clear that that paragraph refers to a rule that uses that standard, number of crew, and as is the case is the IRC rule. Just as two or three paragraphs earlier the very same NOR is stating that an additional spinnaker may be carried by IRC boats.

This owner's problem is this, he can reason all he wishes. At the end of the day we are a self policing sport. The "self" is literal. He is to police himself. The rules also allow for his competitors and relevant committees to lodge a protest if and when he fails to self-police. We all make mistakes. We all get things wrong from time to time. Folks make mistakes. No one immune. He was simply mistaken right up until the moment a certain sailmaker brought this to the attention of him and the powers that be. Once the mistake was brought to light, that moment becomes the line of demarcation between being mistaken and cheating. He was mistaken. He is now cheating. By the rules we agree to sail by, upon realizing he has violated the rules he has agreed to compete under, he is to take a penalty or retire. Since we are outside the realm of taking a penalty, he should be a gentleman and RAF. RAF, return the lighthouse trophy and ask to have any races he now knows he was out of compliance to be set aside. That is what a proper gentleman does. That is what a good sailor does. If this person wins and accepts any seasonal trophies, we as his fellow competitors should stand and turn our backs on him and the organization that has allowed this to come that far. We need to turn our backs on those ho would cheat us all.

 

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11 hours ago, robalex117 said:

Swabbie,

Just to set the record straight regarding the YA program sailing with pros.  Yes we did sail with one pro on the Bermuda race, plus myself and another parent.  Yes we did sail with a Cat3 on the Vineyard this year  since our regular parent coach had to do a college drop off.  That is TWO races out of about 300 race days over the past 4 years when the YA team sailed with a pro.  

If anybody has any specific questions regarding the YA program we would be glad to share and would love to help replicate to other clubs.  Quite honestly the problem is not the funding, it is getting the committed volunteers to put in the time to make the program work year after year.

 

 

How often is mark ploch of Doyle ploch onboard? 

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9 hours ago, A-NU-START said:

How often is mark ploch of Doyle ploch onboard? 

Thanks for the reminder.  Just a few race days. Couple years back he was on for the Dorade and can't remember a day since then.    His kids have/are in the program but work schedule does not let him be on the boat.   He did help sail High Noon back from Bermuda.

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22 hours ago, robalex117 said:

Quite honestly the problem is not the funding, it is getting the committed volunteers to put in the time to make the program work year after year.

The dedication of the entire team, including the adult volunteers, is really crucial to the success of the program.  Every day I'm down at AYC the kids and adults are working on the boat, regardless of the weather.  I've been down there in early April and the kids are on the boat rigging everything up for the season, or late October when they're taking the boat apart.  During the season you can probably find YA at the dock being hosed down, or watch someone hauling a cart of sails to or from the boat.  It's a lot of work, and everyone involved pitches in to make it happen.  That's really the added experience that no one thinks about with this program, the offshore miles are impressive at such a young age, but learning to maintain and repair a boat is a lifelong skill.

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22 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

To suggest that the PHRF meetings are open is a vast  stretch of reality. Yes YRA members may attend during presentations to the committee. Deliberations are closed door. In fact, the president of the YRA has in the past been asked to leave the room while the "committee" deliberates. There is little that is "open" about the process. It is generally a "closed" matter from the get-go. The committee, steered by some long entrenched members, holds hearings as a matter of due diligence and appearance. It is long held that the decisions are a foregone conclusion to change ratings. Deliberation phase only serves to "refine" what the changes may shall be.

PHRF committee would be well served to have limits on terms of service.

We finally agree on something:P

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20 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

He was the president when he was asked to leave the room.

Yes, at times members of the committee leave the room and I know the chair has done so on a number of occasions. However and with that said, this is in a way wrong headed. By the same logic all sailmakers should leave the room. The people we want in the room are the ones on the line. Now if they choose to recuse when the vote comes about because of personal reasons, then that is their prerogative but I want people in the room who know what they are talking about first hand. And I want them voting their conscience. If they do not have the integrity to be impartial, then they should not have been considered for the position in the first place.

There does not need to be a protest to disqualify the offending boat. When someone signs  their certificate they are agree to abide by the class association rules. That class association in this case is The PHRF Class. The Class Measurer reserves the righto revoke the certificate of any boat that is sailing outside the class rules. As I understand it this is the actual matter at hand. This boat was sailing outside of the restrictions stated on her rating certificate and as such  is in violation of class rules. Her certificate should be revoked Immediately. From the point in time that the class measurer can ascertain this boat was out of compliance, she the moment she is out of compliance, those finishing positions should not count for either the particular event nor seasonal standings.

Now you state that the owner is in contention for seasonals and can thus sympathize. NO HE IS NOT IN CONTENTION. He is not for the simple reason he was sailing his boat outside of the restrictions on weight he agreed to. Further, it is my understanding that he is contending that The Vineyard Race NOR allowed him to do so. Specifically Paragraph 1.7 allows for 1 more body than the number stated on the certificate. Fly in that ointment is this. PHRF is not done by a specific number, but by crew weight. So it is clear that that paragraph refers to a rule that uses that standard, number of crew, and as is the case is the IRC rule. Just as two or three paragraphs earlier the very same NOR is stating that an additional spinnaker may be carried by IRC boats.

This owner's problem is this, he can reason all he wishes. At the end of the day we are a self policing sport. The "self" is literal. He is to police himself. The rules also allow for his competitors and relevant committees to lodge a protest if and when he fails to self-police. We all make mistakes. We all get things wrong from time to time. Folks make mistakes. No one immune. He was simply mistaken right up until the moment a certain sailmaker brought this to the attention of him and the powers that be. Once the mistake was brought to light, that moment becomes the line of demarcation between being mistaken and cheating. He was mistaken. He is now cheating. By the rules we agree to sail by, upon realizing he has violated the rules he has agreed to compete under, he is to take a penalty or retire. Since we are outside the realm of taking a penalty, he should be a gentleman and RAF. RAF, return the lighthouse trophy and ask to have any races he now knows he was out of compliance to be set aside. That is what a proper gentleman does. That is what a good sailor does. If this person wins and accepts any seasonal trophies, we as his fellow competitors should stand and turn our backs on him and the organization that has allowed this to come that far. We need to turn our backs on those ho would cheat us all.

 

The problem is not many of them race, and if they do it's in their little pond by there club.

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10 hours ago, jesposito said:

The problem is not many of them race, and if they do it's in their little pond by there club.

Cante we juste gette them ote theire sailling againe?  So they no what thjey our talkling aboute?

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On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:19 AM, Swabbie said:

Bastard -   RAF no longer exists.   RET. 

It's curious that organizing authorities seem to prefer to look the other way and let others handle these types of things. Sure its uncomfortable but you would think they want to protect the integrity of their own events. They have all the tools to handle this sort of thing nowadays, but few are using new  RRS 90 Technical Committees for instance.  One boat was questioned and had its rating changed by 9 points after last years race.  Results were never changed, updated, rescored, dsq, ret etc.
even to this day. Nothing by either the OA, or the competitor.  Probably because there was no podium finish, but it still could have affected season scoring for others. There is just no penalty for sailing out of compliance whether by intentional cheating or honest mistake.  The worst that happens is being rescored with the correct rating. That is not a penalty. So why expect behavior to change? 'Self policing' is a joke. Its a rare instance when a violator will come forward and do the 'gentlemanly' thing as you say.  And quite agree that 'mistakes' become  intentional acts when nothing is done once they are pointed out. The old excuse of 'nobody protested so there was nothing we could do' is just not true any more.   

So how does this turning of the backs go?  Same as NYC cops do to DeBlasio?   

I agree that OA's have to uphold and enforce the integrity of their events. I think the mindset is that if they make a stink, they will lose participants. Again, wrong headed. They end up keeping the cheater while good folks quietly walk away from those events.

Above being true, the PHRF committee is also quite culpable. To allow one of their certificates to be violated and to not act to rescind is an affront to every other sailor on Long Island Sound. Any committee member who does not understand their responsibility in such matters should get the hell out or our sport. I guess the draw of free booze at the NYYC is just to much to resist, eh?

 

As for turning our backs. Yes, exactly like the NYPD has done to DeBlasio. Stand up and turn our backs. Send a message loud and clear that the rank and file will not tolerate those who cheat and those who allow cheating. You, Espo and me, front and center. Maybe even moon the rat bastards for effect.

 

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On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:45 PM, Snaggletooth said:

Cante we juste gette them ote theire sailling againe?  So they no what thjey our talkling aboute?

There are two types of people who participate in LIS racing Mr. Snaggy. Those who make their name on the water, and those who make their name in the board room. The YR has long been a place for also rans to get recognition.

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45 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

There are two types of people who participate in LIS racing Mr. Snaggy. Those who make their name on the water, and those who make their name in the board room. The YR has long been a place for also rans to get recognition.

Hey Cliff, go piss up a rope. We get it. 

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And the Pussies that be in YRA, still have done nothing with Gemini in the Vintard race and never will.

All a bunch of blowhards, setting up a special comm to get a handle on the cheaters. It's a crack of shit, just like last year when there was talk of getting rid of weight limits.

They put it on the OA to do it  and by doing that they made it more work for the OA, since now if they decide not to use weight limits, they now have to go through each PHRF cert to see who is taking a credit and give those boats the correct rating.

All they did was appease a few.

Basically a fuck you to those that oppose weight limits.

 

It's good to see that Larchmont, Manhasset and EBYRA have the BALLS not to use weight limits 

 

Yours Truly

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14 hours ago, A-NU-START said:

Hey Cliff, go piss up a rope. We get it. 

No I do not think you get it as I am not Cliff. And besides, Cliff is a YRA board member..... as I trust you are too based the above response

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3 hours ago, Swabbie said:

SYC wrote an NOR that is Moosehead worthy.  And they have said they will not hear a protest because the deadline has passed.  That's BS they have the right to extend the deadline based on new facts found (Photoboat pics).  There are at least two pro-testable infractions. They dont want to have to ask for the trophies back, (including NELS),and want someone else to carry their water.   Its all about the party nowadays.  The competitors should file the protest anyway and then appeal to US Sailing to have it heard.   You can deny a protest, you cannot deny people filing one.  Where are the other 7 boats in this division on this?  Here is a pic of the added  transom door that is still on the certificate from a prior year, but not on the boat.    http://www.photoboatgallery.net/p5726579/h121f9eb0#h121f9eb0  

All the certificates are on line it takes 10 minutes to check which ones are taking weight or roller furler credits. In the old days you sent in a copy of your cert with your entry.   

There is a formal, established,  and very simple process to ajudicate this matter, and so far nobody including SYC has undertaken it.       

They should put this Photoboat guy on the PHRF and OA  Committees  

 

 

 

 

I do not disagree that OA's need to enforce this stuff. 

I am firmly against the use of time limits after the fact to act as cover to people who don't wish to soil their hands.

Ultimately The YRALIS issues these certificates. The buck stops with them to make certain their certificates are valid. If evidence is brought to the attention of the committee that someone is sailing outside of the limits of their certificate, then the YRALIS MUST ACT AND ACT SWIFTLY. They are making a big mistake letting this drag on. At this point, their certificates tread close to just not being worth a damn if the issuing authority does not move to insure their adherence. 

Looking down the road, this will result in the YRALIS losing any real or perceived authority. In the age of the internet. The foundations of the YRALIS, the oldest in the United States, was to bring together the area yacht clubs to end the use of numerous rating rules and schedule conflicts. By not enforcing their certificates, and with clubs having the ability to rapidly communicate amongst themselves, the need for the YRA, the era of such an organization may well come to an end. The YRA is making itself irrelevant and has been on such a path for some time now. Not long now before their worst fears will be realized when local clubs begin to accept US Sailing issued PHRF certs. 

The end is near and Nero fiddles about.

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1 hour ago, Swabbie said:

Lets forget about the weight limit credit situation for a moment.

If the YRALIS PHRF Comm and / or Stamford YC does nothing about this, they have declared it is:

1. ok to add stated permanent vessel modifications on your certificate in an effort to influence your base rating ,
2. ok to change them or remove them without notifying the committee (and repeated one more time for dense people.... AS SPECIFICALLY REQUIRED AND STATED IN THE YRALIS PHRF REGULATIONS)
3. sending  a signal that they are willing to bury something in sub committee, rather than hold a fair and due process
4. encouraging more of the same with zero consequences.  J111 rollerfurler gate, etc   
5. not willing to enforce their own regulations

It doesn't matter if those stated modifications also come with a 3 point  rating adjustment or not. They are factors influencing the handicappers
when the base ratings are cooked up. They are factors the certificate owner himself is introducing and requesting be considered to his benefit.

It is NOT OK for a PHRF Comm member to say  4 years later. 'Oh I dont  think we really considered the mod that much'  or 'I cant recall if we considered the 
modification that much', or ' I forget', or 'I know the owner and he is a good guy' or '50# on the transom wont affect things much' .  

It's on the fucking certificate!

So those of you that have put things on your certs like 400 feet of 3/8 anchor chain and 60 pound CQR, washers and dryers, air conditions, fixed biminis, dinghies and davits,  other cruising equipment, etc, feel free to take them off for the Vineyard Race and other races with no fear of penalty. In fact its more likely it will lead to them giving you a couple of really cool season trophies you can show your friends. If anyone questions you, just say 'I interpreted the rules differently'  or 'I forgot' and you're fine.  Try the same thing on your tax return.  

Really looking forward to reading the phrf comm minutes and how they justify this. 

 

 

 

Minutes havn't bee posted since May or June.

Go figure

It's a secret to what goes on at those meeting and they can't get there balls broken if they don't post minutes

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Not a big yra fan but i have a few points. If you are so upset about the phrf com, then go to the meetings.These guys are volunteers and the racing would not happen without them. I also believe(please correct me if wrong) that only a rating committee can protest an infraction on a cert.

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8 hours ago, jesposito said:

Minutes havn't bee posted since May or June.

Go figure

It's a secret to what goes on at those meeting and they can't get there balls broken if they don't post minutes

get your panties out of the wad, We all know you're upset because they don't let you cheat.

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3 hours ago, Salvaged Rep said:

get your panties out of the wad, We all know you're upset because they don't let you cheat.

True, I should be like everyone else

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16 hours ago, Swabbie said:

So those of you that have put things on your certs like 400 feet of 3/8 anchor chain and 60 pound CQR, washers and dryers, air conditions, fixed biminis, dinghies and davits,  other cruising equipment, etc, feel free to take them off for the Vineyard Race and other races with no fear of penalty. In fact its more likely it will lead to them giving you a couple of really cool season trophies you can show your friends. If anyone questions you, just say 'I interpreted the rules differently'  or 'I forgot' and you're fine.  Try the same thing on your tax return.  

Really looking forward to reading the phrf comm minutes and how they justify this. 

 

 

 

Two points.

First off if we didn't have any of these nonsense credits, then they could not be exploited. And they are very much exploited.

Secondly if someone really wanted to be a big shot to his non-sailing friends, sell the boat, add an addition to the house, fill it up with bogus silverware. Net result is you save a couple hundred grand and don't waste your weekends drifting around on the water. Win-win baby.

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