• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Dog

Why the Left Can’t Let Go of Racism

243 posts in this topic

 

Another brilliant article by Shelby Steele IMHO one of the great conservative thinkers of our time.

 

"Liberals sell innocence from America’s past. If bigotry is pronounced dead, the racket is over"...

"Suddenly America was in moral trouble. The open acknowledgment of the nation’s racist past had destroyed its moral authority, and affirming democratic principles and the rule of law was not a sufficient response. Only a strict moral accounting could restore legitimacy.

Thus, redemption—paying off the nation’s sins—became the moral imperative of a new political and cultural liberalism. President Lyndon Johnson turned redemption into a kind of activism: the Great Society, the War on Poverty, school busing, liberalized welfare policies, affirmative action, and so on.

This liberalism always projects moral idealisms (integration, social justice, diversity, inclusion, etc.) that have the ring of redemption. What is political correctness, if not essentially redemptive speech? Soon liberalism had become a cultural identity that offered Americans a way to think of themselves as decent people. To be liberal was to be good".

 

 And of course, if to be liberal was to be good, to be other than liberal was to be bad.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/why-the-left-cant-let-go-of-racism-1503868512

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're getting as bad as Dabs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Dog said:

 

Another brilliant article by Shelby Steele IMHO one of the great conservative thinkers of our time.

Funny, I thought you were a big fan of Krugman, once he said something good about Trump?

It's also funny about how all this yowling about "the left's groundless accusations of racism" never address anything like the differences in unemployment, or college admission, or health statistics, or police shootings, when compared by race. No answer for any of those problems, brown people (and anybody concerned about fairness and equality) should just shut the fuck up already. It's better swept under the rug, right?

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many threads on race have you started in the last week?  

Quote

“Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty.” 
 Stanisław Jerzy Lec

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Funny, I thought you were a big fan of Krugman, once he said something good about Trump?

It's also funny about how all this yowling about "the left's groundless accusations of racism" never address anything like the differences in unemployment, or college admission, or health statistics, or police shootings, when compared by race. No answer for any of those problems, brown people (and anybody concerned about fairness and equality) should just shut the fuck up already. It's better swept under the rug, right?

-DSK

Of course the primary causal factor in every one of those empirical inequities is intentional institutional racism.  How silly of us to think that individual behaviors have anything at all to do w/going to college, employment, or engaging in criminal activity.  I'd posit that the primary causal factors that result in those behaviors is economics, not racism.   Lots of poor white trash going thru the same things - is that because they were subject to racism, or is it only the "minority demographics" that owe their plight to such discrimination? 

There are indeed people in the country who don't like/trust or want to have anything to do with people who don't look/think/act like they do.  Those people exist in every racial demographic represented in our population.  I think that those who cry "ISM" most loudly are often, not always but often, looking for some external factor to blame for their personal inability to improve their situation.  

I'll share a perspective - My boss is black, HIS boss is black, I sit next to a black man who completed his PhD in geo sciences last year - each of them can point to individual instances in which they experienced personal discrimination that they attribute to someone not liking them because they are black.   Each of these men have a nicer house than I do - they've earned it, and deserve it, and they are all appreciated by their neighbors.  I know this from the time that I've spent at those houses, helping them with projects, sharing supper, moving, etc.   They are good solid men who's company I enjoy, who are comfortable in my house, and in who's homes I'm comfortable. 

The one thing that they all say that you may be surprised at is that to a person - they have no time for anyone who chooses to make themselves look like a thug - anyone who speaks in ebonics, anyone who is complaining about their plight without doing anything to improve themselves.  My boss grew up in Jamaica - he had a rough beginning, and lived in the Wilmington, DE projects when his mom moved them to the US at 12.  He got thru school, got in little trouble, went to college (6 years for his BS, according to him), went into the military, and is now making $50K/yr more than I do.  He's no slouch, but, he's not a post-doc, either. We talk often about stuff like this - and he says that anyone who lets the fact that someone else doesn't like them hold them back is more culpable for their situation than any racist action ever could be.  

SO - if these guys don't want to put up with people because of the personas and behaviors that they've chosen to adopt - is it racist if the people that they don't want to put up with happen to be black?  Is it racist if as a white guy, I don't want to associate with people who behave in a certain manner, or ascribe to a persona that I find offensive, if some of those people happen to be black? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gee, I always thought the reason the left couldn't let go of racism was that the right keeps trying to bring back systemic racism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Of course the primary causal factor in every one of those empirical inequities is intentional institutional racism.  How silly of us to think that individual behaviors have anything at all to do w/going to college, employment, or engaging in criminal activity.  I'd posit that the primary causal factors that result in those behaviors is economics, not racism.   Lots of poor white trash going thru the same things - is that because they were subject to racism, or is it only the "minority demographics" that owe their plight to such discrimination? 

There are indeed people in the country who don't like/trust or want to have anything to do with people who don't look/think/act like they do.  Those people exist in every racial demographic represented in our population.  I think that those who cry "ISM" most loudly are often, not always but often, looking for some external factor to blame for their personal inability to improve their situation.  

I'll share a perspective - My boss is black, HIS boss is black, I sit next to a black man who completed his PhD in geo sciences last year - each of them can point to individual instances in which they experienced personal discrimination that they attribute to someone not liking them because they are black.   Each of these men have a nicer house than I do - they've earned it, and deserve it, and they are all appreciated by their neighbors.  I know this from the time that I've spent at those houses, helping them with projects, sharing supper, moving, etc.   They are good solid men who's company I enjoy, who are comfortable in my house, and in who's homes I'm comfortable. 

The one thing that they all say that you may be surprised at is that to a person - they have no time for anyone who chooses to make themselves look like a thug - anyone who speaks in ebonics, anyone who is complaining about their plight without doing anything to improve themselves.  My boss grew up in Jamaica - he had a rough beginning, and lived in the Wilmington, DE projects when his mom moved them to the US at 12.  He got thru school, got in little trouble, went to college (6 years for his BS, according to him), went into the military, and is now making $50K/yr more than I do.  He's no slouch, but, he's not a post-doc, either. We talk often about stuff like this - and he says that anyone who lets the fact that someone else doesn't like them hold them back is more culpable for their situation than any racist action ever could be.  

SO - if these guys don't want to put up with people because of the personas and behaviors that they've chosen to adopt - is it racist if the people that they don't want to put up with happen to be black?  Is it racist if as a white guy, I don't want to associate with people who behave in a certain manner, or ascribe to a persona that I find offensive, if some of those people happen to be black? 

And of course, the author of the article the subject of this thread, is black.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Gee, I always thought the reason the left couldn't let go of racism was that the right keeps trying to bring back systemic racism.

You're welcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Dog said:

You're welcome.

It wasn't hard to arrive at especially when the head of the GOP is a Klan sympathizer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a structural problem politically.

When your base is the politics of the aggrieved, then once you've solved the problem, you lose them as a base.

When your base is the politics of the greedy and fearful, there's never an end to constituents.

Republicans picked a better horse.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SV Airlie said:

But, that's impossible, he said that he's never heard of the KKK and doesn't know David Duke!

I'm just saying it's the guys waving the Nazi flags who can't let go of their racism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

There is a structural problem politically.

When your base is the politics of the aggrieved, then once you've solved the problem, you lose them as a base.

When your base is the politics of the greedy and fearful, there's never an end to constituents.

Republicans picked a better horse.

 

For the short term, perhaps, but the democRATS have no monopoly on the aggrieved.  There seems to be plenty of white victimhood to go around...enough to get The Pride of New York elected, and to keep Foxy News busy with the outrage of the moment at all times.  The line between the aggrieved and the fearful is blurry, as those boys chanting about being replaced by Jews demonstrated.  It seems like those boys have some racism issues to let go of, themselves.  This whole movement that goes around trying to stoke racial violence under the guise of free speech is vile, as are the propagandists who promote it with their dog whistles and plausible deniability. 

This will not change anytime soon.  The media/propaganda machine will make sure to keep working those divisions.  Those divisions help the folks who have bought our government, who like things just the way they are, to protect their favored status.  The last thing they want is to see folks stop looking to their left or right for the source of their problems.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: the thread caption - "because the right keeps producing it".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Turd Sandwich said:

Whats funny is reading your thoughts which mirror mine on the need to keep em separated but it seems that once you come up for air with a relevant thought like this its slip sliding away back to the bowels of partisan politics. Whats it take to stay afloat for fucks sake?

I don't see the need to keep them separated.  A poor white boy who is busting his ass to bring enough money home on the weekend to buy a roll of paper towels and some diapers has a hell of a lot more in common with a black fella who is trying to do the same damn thing, than he does with some rich white fuckwit who is buying the government and using his media machine to make the black guy and white guy hate each other.  The last thing our real entitlement class wants is for the masses to realize who is giving them the the fucking.  

One of these days, someone is going to come along and point that out.  It sure as shit isn't going to be some charlatan who is trying to convince everyone, especially creditors, that he is super rich, while stoking the racial animus at every turn.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

For the short term, perhaps, but the democRATS have no monopoly on the aggrieved.  There seems to be plenty of white victimhood to go around...enough to get The Pride of New York elected, and to keep Foxy News busy with the outrage of the moment at all times.  The line between the aggrieved and the fearful is blurry, as those boys chanting about being replaced by Jews demonstrated.  It seems like those boys have some racism issues to let go of, themselves.  This whole movement that goes around trying to stoke racial violence under the guise of free speech is vile, as are the propagandists who promote it with their dog whistles and plausible deniability. 

This will not change anytime soon.  The media/propaganda machine will make sure to keep working those divisions.  Those divisions help the folks who have bought our government, who like things just the way they are, to protect their favored status.  The last thing they want is to see folks stop looking to their left or right for the source of their problems.  

 

Fundamentally I agree ;)  My personal villain is much more the media.  I think they're playing both sides against the middle for their own gain.  Even when people WITHIN the media call out the media for their bullshit, the partisans beat them down, and the overlords of media sigh with relief.  They don't have to get messy ostracizing their own - which might lead to an actual free press - when there's enough partisans on both sides that LIKE fighting each other to take care of the job for them.

 The show must go on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why can't the left let go of racism?  Because racists can't let go of their bigotry.  Including, without doubt, the occupant of the White House.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok Doggy, I'll see your "brilliant article" by "one of the great conservative thinkers of our time." and raise you one -

David Brooks -

How Trump Kills the G.O.P.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/29/opinion/trump-identity-politics.html

It’s ironic that race was the issue that created the Republican Party and that race could very well be the issue that destroys it.

The G.O.P. was founded to fight slavery, and through most of its history it had a decent record on civil rights. A greater percentage of congressional Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act than Democrats.

It’s become more of a white party in recent years, of course, and adopted some wrongheaded positions on civil rights enforcement, but it was still possible to be a Republican without feeling like you were violating basic decency on matters of race. Most of the Republican establishment, from the Bushes to McCain and Romney, fought bigotry, and racism was not a common feature in the conservative moment.

Between 1984 and 2003 I worked at National Review, The Washington Times, the Wall Street Journal editorial page and The Weekly Standard. Most of my friends were Republicans.

In that time, I never heard blatantly racist comments at dinner parties, and there were probably fewer than a dozen times I heard some veiled comment that could have suggested racism. To be honest, I heard more racial condescension in progressive circles than in conservative ones.

But the Republican Party has changed since 2005. It has become the vehicle for white identity politics. In 2005 only six percent of Republicans felt that whites faced “a great deal” of discrimination, the same number of Democrats who felt this. By 2016, the percentage of Republicans who felt this had tripled.

Recent surveys suggest that roughly 47 percent of Republicans are what you might call conservative universalists and maybe 40 percent are what you might call conservative white identitarians. White universalists believe in conservative principles and think they apply to all people and their white identity is not particularly salient to them. White identitarians are conservative, but their white identity is quite important to them, sometimes even more important than their conservatism.

These white identitarians have taken the multicultural worldview taught in schools, universities and the culture and, rightly or wrongly, have applied it to themselves. As Marxism saw history through the lens of class conflict, multiculturalism sees history through the lens of racial conflict and group oppression.

According to a survey from the Public Religion Research Institute, for example, about 48 percent of Republicans believe there is “a lot of discrimination” against Christians in America and about 43 percent believe there is a lot of discrimination against whites.

I’d love to see more research on the relationship between white identity politics and simple racism. There’s clear overlap, but I suspect they’re not quite the same thing. Racism is about feeling others are inferior. White identitarianism is about feeling downtrodden and aggrieved yourself.

In the P.R.R.I. survey, for example, roughly as many Republicans believe Muslims, immigrants and trans people face a lot of discrimination as believe whites and Christians do. According to a Quinnipiac poll, 59 percent of those in the white working class believe white supremacist groups are a threat to the country.

 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know who Shelby Steele is, I know he had a black father and a white mother, so I find it odd that Republicans listen to him at all. When people like Steele can focus on Colin Kaepernick's complaint (yes, he has one) instead of how he insults the flag or that BLM has a complaint at all, we might get somewhere in this country.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

I don't know who Shelby Steele is, I know he had a black father and a white mother, so I find it odd that Republicans listen to him at all. When people like Steele can focus on Colin Kaepernick's complaint (yes, he has one) instead of how he insults the flag or that BLM has a complaint at all, we might get somewhere in this country.

Kaepernick?  To hell with him and his statement!  He should be glad for his good fortune.  What?  Talking back to the Nazis?  First Amendment!  Freedom of speech!  

 

 

IMG_6958.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sol Rosenberg said:

Kaepernick?  To hell with him and his statement!  He should be glad for his good fortune.  What?  Talking back to the Nazis?  First Amendment!  Freedom of speech!  

 

You should read his book "White guilt isn't real guilt" this guy is so stupid it hurts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Turd Sandwich said:

Division based politics has been around way longer than a ding dong potus. It will still be SOP long after he is a memory unless we can figure out how to stop the fleecing of America by the folks we elect

You realize regurgitating stupid political memes and wrong information - pro or con - on a politician gives one or the other power, right?

 

 

In Doggystyle "brilliant" is telling me what I want to hear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sean said:

 

David Brooks -

How Trump Kills the G.O.P.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/29/opinion/trump-identity-politics.html

These white identitarians have taken the multicultural worldview taught in schools, universities and the culture and, rightly or wrongly, have applied it to themselves. As Marxism saw history through the lens of class conflict, multiculturalism sees history through the lens of racial conflict and group oppression.

 

That's an interesting observation.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why the Left Can’t Let Go of Racism

I'm going to go out on a limb here. It's probably because the right can't stop being racist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

:P

 

 

Edited by Captain Gigi
Post kicked over to this thread by the trolls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why the right won't let go of racism: 

 http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/08/17/steve-bannon-statement-on-charlottesville-ebof-sot-bolduan.cnn

Quote

 Bannon: I want Dems to talk racism every day

 Arpaio's pardon was more than a troll. He lucked out because for this administration there is political hay to be made in the supporting of strident racists. They are likely voters in R primaries and that base is the most likely reason Trump still has the R's for the most part afraid to directly confront him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sean said:

Ok Doggy, I'll see your "brilliant article" by "one of the great conservative thinkers of our time." and raise you one -

David Brooks -

How Trump Kills the G.O.P.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/29/opinion/trump-identity-politics.html

It’s ironic that race was the issue that created the Republican Party and that race could very well be the issue that destroys it.

The G.O.P. was founded to fight slavery, and through most of its history it had a decent record on civil rights. A greater percentage of congressional Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act than Democrats.

It’s become more of a white party in recent years, of course, and adopted some wrongheaded positions on civil rights enforcement, but it was still possible to be a Republican without feeling like you were violating basic decency on matters of race. Most of the Republican establishment, from the Bushes to McCain and Romney, fought bigotry, and racism was not a common feature in the conservative moment.

Between 1984 and 2003 I worked at National Review, The Washington Times, the Wall Street Journal editorial page and The Weekly Standard. Most of my friends were Republicans.

In that time, I never heard blatantly racist comments at dinner parties, and there were probably fewer than a dozen times I heard some veiled comment that could have suggested racism. To be honest, I heard more racial condescension in progressive circles than in conservative ones.

But the Republican Party has changed since 2005. It has become the vehicle for white identity politics. In 2005 only six percent of Republicans felt that whites faced “a great deal” of discrimination, the same number of Democrats who felt this. By 2016, the percentage of Republicans who felt this had tripled.

Recent surveys suggest that roughly 47 percent of Republicans are what you might call conservative universalists and maybe 40 percent are what you might call conservative white identitarians. White universalists believe in conservative principles and think they apply to all people and their white identity is not particularly salient to them. White identitarians are conservative, but their white identity is quite important to them, sometimes even more important than their conservatism.

These white identitarians have taken the multicultural worldview taught in schools, universities and the culture and, rightly or wrongly, have applied it to themselves. As Marxism saw history through the lens of class conflict, multiculturalism sees history through the lens of racial conflict and group oppression.

According to a survey from the Public Religion Research Institute, for example, about 48 percent of Republicans believe there is “a lot of discrimination” against Christians in America and about 43 percent believe there is a lot of discrimination against whites.

I’d love to see more research on the relationship between white identity politics and simple racism. There’s clear overlap, but I suspect they’re not quite the same thing. Racism is about feeling others are inferior. White identitarianism is about feeling downtrodden and aggrieved yourself.

In the P.R.R.I. survey, for example, roughly as many Republicans believe Muslims, immigrants and trans people face a lot of discrimination as believe whites and Christians do. According to a Quinnipiac poll, 59 percent of those in the white working class believe white supremacist groups are a threat to the country.

 
 

I think there is a reason Steele makes his case in terms of left/right, conservative/liberal as opposed to Republican/Democrat. His is social commentary and he wants his thesis considered on its own merits, not muddied with political sausage making. He is speaking as a conservative not a Republican. Brooks is critiquing the Republican Party which is certainly valid but it's a different subject.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bannon quote does fit into the broader narrative that played out over the election.  Maybe he is an evil genius or at least just evil.

The more democrats are talking racism, the less they are talking about jobs, the economy, taxes, etc.  That feeds into the idea that Democrats are just elitists who don't care about flyover country or really care about Joe plumber cause all they ever do is talk about how terrible and racist everyone "not them" is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Dog said:

I think there is a reason Steele makes his case in terms of left/right, conservative/liberal as opposed to Republican/Democrat. His is social commentary and he wants his thesis considered on its own merits, not muddied with political sausage making. He is speaking as a conservative not a Republican. Brooks is critiquing the Republican Party which is certainly valid but it's a different subject.

Well, admitting that the GOP is not conservative is certainly a big step.  Welcome aboard.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Turd Sandwich said:

Division based politics has been around way longer than a ding dong potus. It will still be SOP long after he is a memory unless we can figure out how to stop the fleecing of America by the folks we elect

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article74647642.html

 

Obama’s legacy: Politics of anger, fights, division

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:
6 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

...    ...    ...

It's also funny about how all this yowling about "the left's groundless accusations of racism" never address anything like the differences in unemployment, or college admission, or health statistics, or police shootings, when compared by race. ....    ....

Of course the primary causal factor in every one of those empirical inequities is intentional institutional racism.

Well? So far, in all the times you've yowled about being accused of racism, you've NEVER once offered a solution to ANY of the above issues.

 

I'll share a perspective - My boss is black, HIS boss is black, I sit next to a black man who completed his PhD in geo sciences last year - each of them can point to individual instances in which they experienced personal discrimination that they attribute to someone not liking them because they are black.   Each of these men have a nicer house than I do - they've earned it, and deserve it, and they are all appreciated by their neighbors.  I know this from the time that I've spent at those houses, helping them with projects, sharing supper, moving, etc.   They are good solid men who's company I enjoy, who are comfortable in my house, and in who's homes I'm comfortable. 

The one thing that they all say that you may be surprised at is that to a person - they have no time for anyone who chooses to make themselves look like a thug - ...    ...    ...

I'm not surprised by that at all.

I don't generally hang out with people who go styling around several different ways, including inner city thugs or Confederate flag waving dumbasses.

I'd be a hell of a lot more impressed if you actually had some intelligent suggestion about unequal opportunity in education, employment, health, etc etc. BTW same goes for the same issues with regard to women.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, cmilliken said:

The Bannon quote does fit into the broader narrative that played out over the election.  Maybe he is an evil genius or at least just evil.

The more democrats are talking racism, the less they are talking about jobs, the economy, taxes, etc.  That feeds into the idea that Democrats are just elitists who don't care about flyover country or really care about Joe plumber cause all they ever do is talk about how terrible and racist everyone "not them" is.

It's probably not about the Democrats, it's about the current Congress. So few vote in R primaries a tiny faction, even 1% of the population, if properly energized can utterly dominate the process. For the moment a POTUS threat to challenge them with primary attacks remains well-fanged, and if he doesn't keep a handle on them he might as well put some jam in his pockets because he's toast. A stategery which looks exceedingly bad for the long game but may be being compelled by the urgent needs of the short. 

 It may be he is not attacking his own cabinet..(Mattis and Tillerson) because he is aware he's being a dick.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, poopie pants said:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/amp/

 

Canada’s race problem? It’s even worse than America’s.

 

For a country so self-satisfied with its image of progressive tolerance, how is this not a national crisis?

If you weren't such an ignorant asshole I'd argue that bullshit article with you but since you are I can't be bothered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those damn racists in Canukistan

CHARTS_MAC04-Gilmore-494x1024.thumb.jpeg.2c0cdcc9a173be8593e9459c75039322.jpeg

clean your own yard before worrying about mine 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny, I'm still not seeing a "race problem" in Moderate's score-card. Some interesting statistics for sure, but I'm not seeing one that shows cause. There is no breakdown as to indigenous living conditions, no commentary on Canadians marching in the street chanting "The Inuit will not replace us", no national Nazi movement calling for segregation of their women from the First Nation citizens, and so on. Nothing at all to indicate race or racism is the cause of these issues, as the card deliberately ignores other causes.

Seems to me that Moderate hasn't proven his point, but if history serves, he never will. Trolling is all he's ever got.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's one with leftists, who couldn't let go of race.

2.jpeg?w=800

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

Funny, I'm still not seeing a "race problem" in Moderate's score-card. Some interesting statistics for sure, but I'm not seeing one that shows cause. There is no breakdown as to indigenous living conditions, no commentary on Canadians marching in the street chanting "The Inuit will not replace us", no national Nazi movement calling for segregation of their women from the First Nation citizens, and so on. 

Seems to me that Moderate hasn't proven his point, but if history serves, he never will. Trolling is all he's ever got.

How are you treating your wogs these days

Here are some of the most stunning findings of the survey.

  1. 31.6% of respondents claimed to have ‘negative’ feelings towards Muslim Australians, 22.4% claimed to have ‘negative’ feelings towards Middle-­‐Eastern Australians while only 9% had negative feelings towards Aboriginal Australians.
  2. 36.4% believe the number of immigrants accepted into Australia is too high or much too high.
  3. 41.1% believe Australia is weakened by people of different ethnicities sticking to their old ways.
  4. 20.5% believe that African refugees increase crime in Australia. Men and older participants were more likely to believe that African refugees increase crime.
  5. 32% of respondents reported having experienced racism within their workplace. 32% of respondents reported having experience racism within an educational facility.
  6. Those who belong to a Language Other Than English (LOTE) background reported the highest rates of workplace racism (54.1%) and racism within various educational institutions (55.8%).
  7. The experience of racism on public transport or in the street was the highest at 34.1 per cent, followed by at a shop or shopping centre at 32.2 per cent. Online experiences of racism were also quite high at 28.2 per cent.
  8. Those of LOTE background experienced the highest rates of discrimination in shops/shopping centres (56.9%), on public transport or in the street (58.2%), and online (49.1%).
  9. 48.6% believe people from racial, ethnic, cultural and religious minorities groups should behave more like mainstream Australians.
  10. 54.4% of respondents agreed that Australia should help refugees fleeing persecution in their homeland.43% believe that all boats carrying asylum seekers should be turned back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of figures in that list having nothing to do with race or racism, Moderate. Try again without padding your figures, with a side-by-side comparison to US numbers, and you might be worth debating it with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Funny, I thought you were a big fan of Krugman, once he said something good about Trump?

It's also funny about how all this yowling about "the left's groundless accusations of racism" never address anything like the differences in unemployment, or college admission, or health statistics, or police shootings, when compared by race. No answer for any of those problems, brown people (and anybody concerned about fairness and equality) should just shut the fuck up already. It's better swept under the rug, right?

-DSK

Actual statistics tend to destroy nonsensical arguments like the one in the OP, so good conservatives try to avoid statistics whenever possible as an Unchristian Technobabble ... except some gun stats, some of those are okay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

UFB.

They demand tolerance for their intolerance, and it's the nigger's and kike's fault for being offended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Dog said:

 

Another brilliant article by Shelby Steele IMHO one of the great conservative thinkers of our time.

If that nonsense is your idea of the product of a great thinker, it is no wonder you fall for anything any Republican writes. 

 

The article is utter and complete foolishness. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Moderate said:

Those damn racists in Canukistan

CHARTS_MAC04-Gilmore-494x1024.thumb.jpeg.2c0cdcc9a173be8593e9459c75039322.jpeg

clean your own yard before worrying about mine 

But that's apples and oranges. African Americans were/are just as foreign to North America as the Europeans. I would like to see a comparison of Aboriginal Canadians to Native Americans. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, another 505 sailor said:

UFB.

They demand tolerance for their intolerance, and it's the nigger's and kike's fault for being offended.

It's their fault for noticing racism and/or bigotry.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Dog said:

Liberals sell innocence from America’s past.

That is the opening sentence of the OP reference.

Anyone who starts with that is immediately confessing bias against 'Liberals'.  The language used in that text demonstrates the attitude that got Trump into office.  The successful mind control of the US population, to divide them into two opposing camps that eliminates any other opposition.  And it has worked beyond their wildest dreams, to the point where it is bringing the country to it's knees.

And it's bias, bigoted and thinking American hating cunts like Dog who flick on shit like that, propagate it across the available mediums, helping to make it worse.

Recognise Doggy for what he is, a lapdog, a fucking shill for the dark side, a dumb cunt who is actively promoting policies that will inevitably make him and anyone in his family worse off.  He's too stupid to realise it.  A victim of the brain washing he has received across his lifetime.

Doggy is a shill for the bigots and racists, while lying and pretending to be the reverse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, mikewof said:

But that's apples and oranges. African Americans were/are just as foreign to North America as the Europeans. I would like to see a comparison of Aboriginal Canadians to Native Americans. 

Feel free to dig that up, Im giong sailing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Moderate said:

Feel free to dig that up, Im giong sailing

Or just don't bother digging it up and leave Moderate's latest bullshit exposed as nothing-burger... like the rest of his twaddle.

Hard choice. :rolleyes: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Here's one with leftists, who couldn't let go of race.

2.jpeg?w=800

The peaceful protesters armed with steel pipes were quick to respond.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, random said:

That is the opening sentence of the OP reference.

Anyone who starts with that is immediately confessing bias against 'Liberals'.  The language used in that text demonstrates the attitude that got Trump into office.  The successful mind control of the US population, to divide them into two opposing camps that eliminates any other opposition.  And it has worked beyond their wildest dreams, to the point where it is bringing the country to it's knees.

And it's bias, bigoted and thinking American hating cunts like Dog who flick on shit like that, propagate it across the available mediums, helping to make it worse.

Recognise Doggy for what he is, a lapdog, a fucking shill for the dark side, a dumb cunt who is actively promoting policies that will inevitably make him and anyone in his family worse off.  He's too stupid to realise it.  A victim of the brain washing he has received across his lifetime.

Doggy is a shill for the bigots and racists, while lying and pretending to be the reverse.

Stop bogating the joint Randude...

maxresdefault.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LB 15, maybe you're still in denial because I thought random's summary was almost a bullseye. imagine that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, 3to1 said:

LB 15, maybe you're still in denial because I thought random's summary was almost a bullseye. imagine that.

I think you are mistaking a bull eye for a pigs arse. As usual Randumb attacks anyone with views counter to his conspiracy fueled lunacy as being a shill for big Oil. Fuck Exxon!

I am intelligent enough to see what a scam the whole global warming cult is and call it as such, yet the cunts arn't paying me jack. Do you think I can sue them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Mickey Rat said:

The peaceful protesters armed with steel pipes were quick to respond.

 

But thats not the image they wish to prject

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do people keep digging up racism like it was still going on?

I have no idea myself :rolleyes:

 

KKK.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Culturally disadvantaged people.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

If you weren't such an ignorant asshole I'd argue that bullshit article with you but since you are I can't be bothered.

cuz u have noooodefense

sad sad  sad 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

I think you are mistaking a bull eye for a pigs arse. As usual Randumb attacks anyone with views counter to his conspiracy fueled lunacy as being a shill for big Oil. Fuck Exxon!

I am intelligent enough to see what a scam the whole global warming cult is and call it as such, yet the cunts arn't paying me jack. Do you think I can sue them?

sorry buddy, I happen to consider you one of the (self) deluded. but what the f do I know, I'm not as intelligent as you, nor are the unbiased scientists who seem to be saying the shit has basically hit the fan. there's a bizarre disconnect there, know what I mean?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, 3to1 said:

, nor are the unbiased scientists who seem to be saying the shit has basically hit the fan. there's a bizarre disconnect there, know what I mean?

Unbiased?

Are thier grants dependent on results?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

I am intelligent enough to see what a scam the whole global warming cult is

You mean like the training courses and certifications for sailing are just a crock of shit designed to make money for you?  Like that you mean?

Training courses may save a life every now and then, it's hard to know, but climate change threatens every one on the planet and we do know all about it.

But bottom feeding cunts like you, consider our best scientist to be frauds, while you earn a living scamming cash from people who mostly never get to use the skills they paid for.  But they get a piece of paper right? 

Being concerned about the planet, is a demonstration of empathy.  You don't give a fuck about others, you have no empathy for them.  For that reason you think that like you, the scientists are only in it for themselves.

All you have done here is make a complete fuckwit of yourself.  Just like the director with the Venn diagram, you call yourself intelligent, while proving the opposite.  It should be funny but I'm long past laughing about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Moderate said:

Unbiased?

Are thier grants dependent on results?

YOu mean like the Heartland Institute is independant of the grants they get to deny climate change?

 

Industry

Total   Contributor Total Indivs PACs
Oil & Gas $252,393   Koch Industries $40,900 $3,400 $37,500
Retired $209,441   Watco Companies $36,200 $36,200 $0
Crop Production & Basic Processing $196,178   American Bankers Assn $35,000 $0 $35,000
Republican/Conservative $167,254   B&G Production $34,400 $34,400 $0
Leadership PACs $152,163   House Freedom Fund $34,025 $250 $33,775
Health Professionals $124,755   National Assn of Home Builders $32,500 $0 $32,500
Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $102,850   Russell Stover Candies $32,200 $32,200 $0
Commercial Banks $93,600   Vess Oil Corp $30,000 $30,000 $0
Real Estate $75,310   Hodgdon Powder $28,700 $28,700 $0
Railroads $67,848   Onyx Collection $25,500 $25,500 $0
Agricultural Services/Products $65,700   KMG Tool $24,400 $24,400 $0
General Contractors $59,647   Berexco Inc $23,700 $23,700 $0
Food & Beverage $59,550   National Auto Dealers Assn $22,500 $0 $22,500
Home Builders $58,900   Citizens United $22,000 $0 $22,000
Securities & Investment $55,286   Every Republican is Crucial PAC $20,000 $0 $20,000
Misc Finance $53,250   AT&T Inc $19,500 $500 $19,000
Livestock $51,025   American Medical Assn $19,000 $1,000 $18,000
Insurance $50,613   National Assn of Realtors $19,000 $0 $19,000
Retail Sales $44,700   Ariel Corp $18,900 $18,900 $0
Lawyers/Law Firms $42,422   Ag Services $18,250 $18,250 $0

Tim Huelskamp also a signatory to Americans for Prosperity's “No Climate Tax” pledge. The pledge reads as follows:[189]

“I, ________________, pledge to the American people that I will oppose any legislation relating to climate change that includes a net increase in government revenue”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Umm.

Center your stuff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Moderate said:

Unbiased?

Are thier grants dependent on results?

bullshit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, 3to1 said:

bullshit.

Ummm.... 

Bullshit..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Moderate said:

Ummm.... 

Bullshit..

I'm going to take this opportunity to call you an imbecile. your fuckery is poison.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Moderate said:

Unbiased?

Are thier grants dependent on results?

Not that I've seen. Feel free to share the details of the research grant that requires scientists to confirm climate change. Or, you know, throw out a few red herrings trying to deflect from a lack of evidence for your claims. Won't be the first time today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

 Feel free to share the details of the research grant that requires scientists to confirm climate change.

:lol: Thanks for many words. Same to random. Sweeping rejection of science makes my head explode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, another 505 sailor said:

UFB.

They demand tolerance for their intolerance, and it's the nigger's and kike's fault for being offended.

nice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Well, admitting that the GOP is not conservative is certainly a big step.  Welcome aboard.  

Where have you been?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, random said:

That is the opening sentence of the OP reference.

Anyone who starts with that is immediately confessing bias against 'Liberals'.  The language used in that text demonstrates the attitude that got Trump into office.  The successful mind control of the US population, to divide them into two opposing camps that eliminates any other opposition.  And it has worked beyond their wildest dreams, to the point where it is bringing the country to it's knees.

And it's bias, bigoted and thinking American hating cunts like Dog who flick on shit like that, propagate it across the available mediums, helping to make it worse.

Recognise Doggy for what he is, a lapdog, a fucking shill for the dark side, a dumb cunt who is actively promoting policies that will inevitably make him and anyone in his family worse off.  He's too stupid to realise it.  A victim of the brain washing he has received across his lifetime.

Doggy is a shill for the bigots and racists, while lying and pretending to be the reverse.

In through the nose...out through the mouth...  

I used to be on the left. I understand how liberalism sells moral superiority or as Steele puts it "to be liberal is to be good" or using your own words, to oppose "the dark side". I bought into it myself at one point in my life, I wanted to feel good about myself too.  I understand how upsetting it is to have that challenged.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Dog said:

In through the nose...out through the mouth...  

I used to be on the left. I understand how liberalism sells moral superiority or as Steele puts it "to be liberal is to be good" or using your own words, to oppose "the dark side". I bought into it myself at one point in my life, I wanted to feel good about myself too.  I understand how upsetting it is to have that challenged.

200_s.gif

We can tell when you are lying ... you post something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Dog said:

In through the nose...out through the mouth...  

I used to be on the left. I understand how liberalism sells moral superiority or as Steele puts it "to be liberal is to be good" or using your own words, to oppose "the dark side". I bought into it myself at one point in my life, I wanted to feel good about myself too.  I understand how upsetting it is to have that challenged.

That's a rather half hearted straw man.  Could you make up for it with a moving goal post or perhaps a post hoc ergo propter hoc?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

 a post hoc ergo propter hoc?

I had to go look that one up :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

I had to go look that one up :)

 

I learned about it here.  I love spotting fallacies.  Rush is the only person of whom I can think, who can keep four of them spinning at once in some kind of compound fallacy, which is why I listen to him from time to time.  He's not as much fun without a D President, because they work better for attackers than apologists.  Most of what we get around here are straw men, usually about what someone else (or some other group) is thinking.  Dog has been using a lot of guilt by association lately, with a bit of straw man thrown in.  I want to do my part to encourage him to expand and improve his craft.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, random said:

200_s.gif

We can tell when you are lying ... you post something.

Keep railing against the "dark side". You just prove Steele's point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

I learned about it here.  I love spotting fallacies.  Rush is the only person of whom I can think, who can keep four of them spinning at once in some kind of compound fallacy, which is why I listen to him from time to time.  He's not as much fun without a D President, because they work better for attackers than apologists.  Most of what we get around here are straw men, usually about what someone else (or some other group) is thinking.  Dog has been using a lot of guilt by association lately, with a bit of straw man thrown in.  I want to do my part to encourage him to expand and improve his craft.  

WIthout strawmen and ad hominem attacks, there would be no chance to pass up General Anarchy in posts!

Like.. literally none.  Half the posts are of that variety.

I actually like the 'steel man' strategy taught in most law schools and used by a few philosophers.  Build up your opponents position to its absolute strongest THEN take your shots. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, cmilliken said:

WIthout strawmen and ad hominem attacks, there would be no chance to pass up General Anarchy in posts!

I actually like the 'steel man' strategy taught in most law schools and used by a precious few philosophers.  Build up your opponents position to it's absolute strongest THEN take your shots. 

My favorite professor did that all the time.  He was like a circling shark, just waiting to take a bite and tear an argument to shreds.  "yep, yep, I'm with you there.  I'm a believer, I agree 100%.  Wait.  Wait.  No, I'm experiencing some cognitive dissonance Mr. R.  What about..." He was also responsible for my conversion to the theory of legal realism, something which I apply to judges and politicians with equal scorn....  (Don't listen to what they say, look at what they do if you want to understand their motivations).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

  (Don't listen to what they say, look at what they do if you want to understand their motivations).  

THAT is one of my rules of life.  Words can tell you intent / context but actions tell you truth.

I didn't know it had a name!  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

THAT is one of my rules of life.  Words can tell give you intent / context but actions tell you truth.

 

Confucius say, words not cook rice.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:
29 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

THAT is one of my rules of life.  Words can tell give you intent / context but actions tell you truth.

 

Confucius say, words not cook rice.

True enough, but speaking is an action. In a sense, words -are- deeds. Words are deeds equal to their meaning, to the foolish & gullible. Words are equal to the deed of persuading fools, if one is not.

Why should any person want to persuade fools?

Stopping is an action. Stopping on the road to enlightenment is an action.

So is backing up!

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dog said:

In through the nose...out through the mouth...  

I used to be on the left. I understand how liberalism sells moral superiority or as Steele puts it "to be liberal is to be good" or using your own words, to oppose "the dark side". I bought into it myself at one point in my life, I wanted to feel good about myself too.  I understand how upsetting it is to have that challenged.

So. You "used to be on the left." What does that mean? Do you mean, "I used to feel that all men are created equal, and women too. I used to believe that all people should have equal opportunities to learn and to work and to have good lives. But I no longer believe that."

Do you mean, "I wanted to be part of the group that I saw as the cool kids. Because wow those hippie chicks were hot. But now I hate them."

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Do you mean, "I used to feel that all men are created equal, and women too. I used to believe that all people should have equal opportunities to learn and to work and to have good lives. But I no longer believe that."

 

Strawmen are SOOO easy to build :)

LIGHT EM UP!  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I'm not surprised by that at all.

I don't generally hang out with people who go styling around several different ways, including inner city thugs or Confederate flag waving dumbasses.

I'd be a hell of a lot more impressed if you actually had some intelligent suggestion about unequal opportunity in education, employment, health, etc etc. BTW same goes for the same issues with regard to women.

-DSK

You haven't been paying attention - I've said several times what I think the ultimate "fix" will entail.  The "unequal opportunity" has more to do with the behaviors and decisions of parents of young kids than it does with any institutional racism, in my personal, limited experience.  

You want to help people?  Then intervention ( which, aside from handing out money seems to be anathema to too many) at a young enough age to ensure that the kids are fed well enough to support their physical brain development, are nurtured enough to support their emotional development, and are educated enough to learn HOW to learn.    We need to quit tolerating victim marketing - to include the message that the blacks/hispanics/asians are taking something from the poor white guys. We need to stop using courts and law enforcement as local revenue generation agents. 

We need to quit apologizing for the known outcomes of bad decisions, and make those bad decisions socially stigmatizing.   We need to adjust our curriculum to include people who are not academic learners.  Some people learn well by reading, some need to have hands-on exposure coupled with an explanation.  We have really disadvantaged the other-than-academic learners w/the complete focus on test scores and the lack of any support for true subject mastery.   

There aren't any quick-fix "programs" that will address the issues - there are no handouts/quotas/additional protected classes that will address the issues.   What will is *everyone* seeing that there is a level playing field, which will require those that have been told that they're "victims" to accept responsibility for their own outcomes. People need to recognize that dislike != discrimination, that outcome equality isn't the same as opportunity access equality, and quit conflating the two. 

Because we won't change the minds of the current generation of adult workers, we'll need to start with the kids.  That's why I consistently proffer that any lasting social change will take 3 generations to realize significant success.  These things don't erase the dislike of "someone different", but, they will prevent the desperation that comes from limiting one's options based upon poor life choices.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meanwhile, back in the real world.

"A furious Georgia Republican issued a horrifying threat to a Democrat over her push to remove Confederate statues. In an ominous social media post, State Rep. Jason Spencer warned that if former state Rep. LaDawn Jones doesn’t abandon her fight against monuments to slavery, she might “go missing.”

In a contentious back and forth on Facebook, Spencer told Jones that “people in South Georgia are people of action, not drama” and then added that people who don’t understand that “will go missing in the Okefenokee.”

“Too many necks they are red around here,” he wrote. “Don’t say I didn’t warn you about ’em.”

Jones, a black woman who represented an Atlanta-based district from 2012 to 2016, did not back down from Spencer’s “threat of physical violence.”

“Enjoy but know … WINTER IS COMING,” Jones wrote back. “You know it too … otherwise you wouldn’t have found a need to even make this post or those hollow threats of not coming to south GA."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

You haven't been paying attention - I've said several times what I think the ultimate "fix" will entail.  The "unequal opportunity" has more to do with the behaviors and decisions of parents of young kids than it does with any institutional racism, in my personal, limited experience.  

You want to help people?  Then intervention ( which, aside from handing out money seems to be anathema to too many) at a young enough age to ensure that the kids are fed well enough to support their physical brain development, are nurtured enough to support their emotional development, and are educated enough to learn HOW to learn.    We need to quit tolerating victim marketing - to include the message that the blacks/hispanics/asians are taking something from the poor white guys. We need to stop using courts and law enforcement as local revenue generation agents. 

We need to quit apologizing for the known outcomes of bad decisions, and make those bad decisions socially stigmatizing.   We need to adjust our curriculum to include people who are not academic learners.  Some people learn well by reading, some need to have hands-on exposure coupled with an explanation.  We have really disadvantaged the other-than-academic learners w/the complete focus on test scores and the lack of any support for true subject mastery.   

There aren't any quick-fix "programs" that will address the issues - there are no handouts/quotas/additional protected classes that will address the issues.   What will is *everyone* seeing that there is a level playing field, which will require those that have been told that they're "victims" to accept responsibility for their own outcomes. People need to recognize that dislike != discrimination, that outcome equality isn't the same as opportunity access equality, and quit conflating the two. 

Because we won't change the minds of the current generation of adult workers, we'll need to start with the kids.  That's why I consistently proffer that any lasting social change will take 3 generations to realize significant success.  These things don't erase the dislike of "someone different", but, they will prevent the desperation that comes from limiting one's options based upon poor life choices.  

OK, that's a long list of things we need to NOT do, most of which I agree with in theory. In practice, you've railed against affirmative action in terms that make it clear you don't know what affirmative action really is; and you offer nothing to put "equal opportunity" into practice.

One thing I disagree with: there is not a level playing field. There are plenty of smart kids with enormous potential who do not have a path to higher education and a professional career. That hurts our whole socio-economic system. We need smart people to take jobs that require brains and lengthy complex training, when there are more smart doctors and scientists and engineers and teachers... and good cooks! ... then everybody gains from their work.

That's a totally selfish motivation but it allows others to benefit too. If you want to talk about 'harmful cultural norms' how about the currently popular theory that the best way to win is to make sure the other guy loses. Very popular standard of behavior in some circles, the best.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

OK, that's a long list of things we need to NOT do, most of which I agree with in theory. In practice, you've railed against affirmative action in terms that make it clear you don't know what affirmative action really is; and you offer nothing to put "equal opportunity" into practice.

One thing I disagree with: there is not a level playing field. There are plenty of smart kids with enormous potential who do not have a path to higher education and a professional career. That hurts our whole socio-economic system. We need smart people to take jobs that require brains and lengthy complex training, when there are more smart doctors and scientists and engineers and teachers... and good cooks! ... then everybody gains from their work.

That's a totally selfish motivation but it allows others to benefit too. If you want to talk about 'harmful cultural norms' how about the currently popular theory that the best way to win is to make sure the other guy loses. Very popular standard of behavior in some circles, the best.

-DSK

I agree - and would ask why you think that inequity exists?  The answer to that, and validating your basis for that answer will lead us to the next part of the discussion, which is whether or not access to opportunities is, as you and many others contend, impeded by institutional racism, or, as I and many others contend, impeded by the impacts of poor personal decisions.   

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

So. You "used to be on the left." What does that mean? Do you mean, "I used to feel that all men are created equal, and women too. I used to believe that all people should have equal opportunities to learn and to work and to have good lives. But I no longer believe that."

Do you mean, "I wanted to be part of the group that I saw as the cool kids. Because wow those hippie chicks were hot. But now I hate them."

-DSK

No I still believe in those things, I'm just more pragmatic now. I like things that work. 

Thanks for illustrating Steele's "to be liberal is to be good" point so clearly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I agree - and would ask why you think that inequity exists?  The answer to that, and validating your basis for that answer will lead us to the next part of the discussion, which is whether or not access to opportunities is, as you and many others contend, impeded by institutional racism, or, as I and many others contend, impeded by the impacts of poor personal decisions.   

 

 

There is in fact a lot of racism on the part of the people who make decisions for institutions. Obviously a State University is land & buildings, it cannot be racist as an institution. OTOH I can tell you from enfuriating personal experience that a kid named "Daquan" is about five times more likely to have his application go into the circular file than a kid named 'J. Buckminster Randolph III" and that's long before it gets to a board hearing. Ask your boss if he thinks so.

The good news is that almost everybody in our socio-economic system agrees that racism is bad; and those who -would- do these kinds of things do so furtively.... except in situations where guys with overtly racist views  are in charge, fortunately rare... but unfortunately now, exactly what we have at the top, now.

[edit to add] I apologize for the incomplete answer above... yes the impact of bad decisions is a bigger part than "institutionalized" (whatever that means) racism. Two points- why do you want to -further- punish children for the bad choices of their parents, and how do you address inequality resulting from bad decisions without also getting bogged down in a lot of issues which largely fall along racial lines?

One of the best things Obama did was to provide an example of success thru education to black children. Failure to acknowledge Obama as a sign of American opportunity, and the benefit of studying hard, is one of the most racist things about Republicans' snarky attitude about him.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

There is in fact a lot of racism on the part of the people who make decisions for institutions. Obviously a State University is land & buildings, it cannot be racist as an institution. OTOH I can tell you from enfuriating personal experience that a kid named "Daquan" is about five times more likely to have his application go into the circular file than a kid named 'J. Buckminster Randolph III" and that's long before it gets to a board hearing. Ask your boss if he thinks so.

The good news is that almost everybody in our socio-economic system agrees that racism is bad; and those who -would- do these kinds of things do so furtively.... except in situations where guys with overtly racist views  are in charge, fortunately rare... but unfortunately now, exactly what we have at the top, now.

-DSK

You're kinda ignoring the larger point, and I don't know if that's your intent, or if your intent is to bring light to an instance in which you think your perspective is being ignored.  Just an FYI - I understand very clearly how affirmative action is implemented in education (admin, not admissions), hiring practice, the HR laws and requirements for affirmative action compliance, and the fact that no HR manager/admissions director wants to have anything to do with defending an individual against a legitimate affirmative action complaint.  

IMHO - the bigger issue is that many Daquans, Jimmy Rays, and Lila Shaneequas aren't at all personally prepared to seek or take advantage of the opportunities that do exist.  If they aren't capable of satisfying the basic admissions standards for whatever educational/career pursuit they may wish to follow, then all the open doors in the world aren't  going to help them get where they should want to be.  

Ignorance, victim mentality, desperation born of multi-generational poverty, unawareness of appropriate behaviors and the reasons why inappropriate behaviors are inappropriate, unawareness of the existing support structures, apathy/violence in the home, and piss poor parental priorities are all a whole helluva lot more damaging than the furtively racist admissions counselor at a school where Daquan and Billy Ray are vying for admission.     In my life's observations and in the unscientific research I've done, the presence of these factors is determined more by economics than race. I contend that the constant clamor that these things are only impacting minorities, and as such must be racist in perpetuation are distracting us from having the real discussion, which is how to effect the societal changes that help to motivate people to adopt more positive behaviors.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

....    ....    ...

IMHO - the bigger issue is that many Daquans, Jimmy Rays, and Lila Shaneequas aren't at all personally prepared to seek or take advantage of the opportunities that do exist.  If they aren't capable of satisfying the basic admissions standards for whatever educational/career pursuit they may wish to follow, then all the open doors in the world aren't  going to help them get where they should want to be.      ....      ...     ...

Agreed.

Teaching them to sail is about the best way I can think of to address that; unfortunately we can't really do that for as many kids as would benefit from it. So when I see other programs intended to help in similar ways, I try to keep an open mind about it instead of railing about rewarding bad decisions or wasting my hard-earned tax money.

BTW I hit send while still typing, the goddam autocorrect has changed much of what I typed. Still not sure what the hell is going to come out the other side here.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Agreed.

Teaching them to sail is about the best way I can think of to address that; unfortunately we can't really do that for as many kids as would benefit from it. So when I see other programs intended to help in similar ways, I try to keep an open mind about it instead of railing about rewarding bad decisions or wasting my hard-earned tax money.

BTW I hit send while still typing, the goddam autocorrect has changed much of what I typed. Still not sure what the hell is going to come out the other side here.

-DSK

 

IMG_6938.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now