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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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23 hours ago, RKoch said:

Update on the dugout canoe... initial examination dates it from several decades to a few hundred years old. A cut nail was found, meaning it's not pre-contact. Currently being preserved and will get a closer examination and carbon dating.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1534364963287288&id=585881174802343

Cool, thanks for sharing.  Again thanks to all for the updates to you and others.  Starting the trek south on Saturday and also had a few anxious moments watching the hurricane's path as I made a new (used) addition from the dark side recently and have not even seen it yet in person.  Thankfully it took a turn to the right and sounds like from the storage place that it is ok.  Change of plan from week in the keys on it though, will be headed to lighthouse point instead and doing a little day tripping along the ICW there.

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1 hour ago, MisterMoon said:

May we all survive our youth. No one likes going to a teenager's funeral. 

Indeed. My favorite quote from my mother, who raised 14 children- "every adult is a miracle".

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10 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

We have low dams like that on the Potomac that keep enough water trapped to provide drinking water. They drown people almost every year :o

I have heard that one person drowned at our dam a long time ago. A man in a skiff somehow swamped and drowned.

People walk out on it and fish. They're not supposed to, but I see it all the time. If you slip, you'll fall a few feet onto rocks. It would be unfun but probably survivable.

I guess that wire on it to be about 3 feet above the concrete. About 2 feet of water coming over the top in my pic. We usually consider 6 inches coming over to be a LOT.

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Noaa satellite imagery of some of the areas effected by Irma.  If you look at the north side of St John, near Francis bay, someone has "Send Tesla" spelled out on the grass .

 

https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/irma/index.html

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survived 

 

a  cat 1 here  ONLY 

but prep for a cat 5 185mph damm near  killed us 

then no power + heat all most finished the job

then power came back on only to go out again 

still no net or cable or phone cells spotty

at libary to post and get E-mails 

 

 

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On 9/7/2017 at 3:49 PM, Uncooperative Tom said:

So does Florida have a Cracker Navy like the Cajun Navy?

We might need one.

It turns out that the answer is yes, but they drive trucks.

FB videos this morning from the flyfishing guide from whom we bought our 'toon boat. Loading a truck and heading to the Keys, then video of driving past what was an RV park and other wreckage in Marathon.

I don't know who, if anyone, is organizing this effort. I do know that this guy has a business to run and doesn't really have time to be shuttling water down to the Keys. Yet there he goes.

So, if you're in the area, say thanks by supporting West Wall Outfitters

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just got back on line this AM at home here is my long version

house is fine no damage other then a few shingles
and minor drips from the post andrew 25+ year old roof
lots of branches broken but all the trees survived
we only got cat 1 winds 70 mph with 80-90 in gusts
lost power for 2 days then got power on for two more days then it died again for 2 more
ran power across the street to my cuban deer hunter buddy when I had it
and after we all lost power he got loaned a generator and ran us power back the same way

thankfully we had a battery powered fan [6 D-cells] to move air
and ace HW store had more D-cells after the storm to keep it running
used a car battery and a car radio inside for info
and a 18v garden LED spotlight worked fine on 12 volts to see or read
was only $12 at wal mart for the LED garden spotlite and was in abundance after the storm
I just cut off the connector and hooked up direct to the car battery
neg is the ribbed side wire + is plain

an other idea for a fan

one that I am kicking myself over not remembering I had but forgot and didnot use

is a radiator fan they run on 12volts and produce a good breeze

nice on a front hatch on a calm nite at anchor also



lots of cuts and bruises from the board up and clean up ect but no real injury's

only real loss was 1/2 bigger KOI in the pool do to debris and no air pumps running
my 18v power tools were a savior and I bought at HD a hand held Ryobi air inflation pump
that saved the remaining KOI and GF with it's 18v Li batterys

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separate question on the eyewall and newer steel roof panels ?

did any fail bend or blow away ? here in this one,or  down island or texas ?

with common cat 4-5 storms I am wondering if they are worth it ?

and survived the test of the cat 5 real world ?

 

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7 hours ago, nota said:

separate question on the eyewall and newer steel roof panels ?

did any fail bend or blow away ? here in this one,or  down island or texas ?

with common cat 4-5 storms I am wondering if they are worth it ?

and survived the test of the cat 5 real world ?

 

Metal roofs seemed to do best in Charlie and Andrew but a lot of it is what happens to hit your roof. If the answer to that question is "a giant tree" or something, it won't matter what material is on top.

My neighbor in Miami had NO damage to his asphalt shingle roof from Andrew. It was the only intact roof for miles. And boy was his roofer popular after the storm. His giant oak tree missed his house and so did most everything else that was flying around. And his shingles were stuck on by a guy who really knew what he was doing.

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Even a really minor hurricane cleanup is a PITA.

I have removed a trailer load of broken branches from my yard each day since Irma.

21686785_10212287613579515_7905586650827

A couple more days and I'll be able to mow again.

That's because the storm didn't flatten a hundred oaks like the one in the background and damage or destroy my houses, which is what I was expecting when I left.

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Speaking of cleanup, a tornado-weakened branch finally let go and I have a job to clean it up. So....big surprise....my chainsaw is dead again even using the special ethanol free $8/quart gas :angry:

Are electric chain saws any good? I think I can keep a generator alive easier than the tiny chain saw engine with the tiny carb.

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10 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Are electric chain saws any good? I think I can keep a generator alive easier than the tiny chain saw engine with the tiny carb.

Usually (very) power limited, also those on the mains network. For lighter work - yes, works fine. 

//J

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34 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Speaking of cleanup, a tornado-weakened branch finally let go and I have a job to clean it up. So....big surprise....my chainsaw is dead again even using the special ethanol free $8/quart gas :angry:

Are electric chain saws any good? I think I can keep a generator alive easier than the tiny chain saw engine with the tiny carb.

Not really Kent - they are good for pruning duty, but, anything beyond that they will just frustrate you.  What kinda saw do you have?  If it's a "box store" brand - I wouldn't expect much from it.  I buy Stihl saws, and have had one since I was 14 - they aren't cheap, but, they work.  If ya want to meet me on this side of the Bay Bridge - I'd be happy to loan ya mine for a few weeks. 

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24 minutes ago, Jaramaz said:

Usually (very) power limited, also those on the mains network. For lighter work - yes, works fine. 

//J

 

Just now, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Not really Kent - they are good for pruning duty, but, anything beyond that they will just frustrate you.  What kinda saw do you have?  If it's a "box store" brand - I wouldn't expect much from it.  I buy Stihl saws, and have had one since I was 14 - they aren't cheap, but, they work.  If ya want to meet me on this side of the Bay Bridge - I'd be happy to loan ya mine for a few weeks. 

What he said. Marginal for 8" oak limbs. Pretty useless beyond that. I have an "everyday" 18" stihl, a 24" big ass tree came down stihl and an 18" Poulon that is painful but won't completely die. I use it when working on trees and branches that fall into the creek and I may have to cut with the bar in the water. Follow up with a fresh water rinse and generous lubrication. I use professional chains on the 2 Stihls and keep all chains sharp. Cut up 18 fully grown hardwoods after Irene with that setup and helped friends clean up as well.  

 

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14 hours ago, nota said:

Only real loss was 1/2 bigger KOI in the pool do to debris and no air pumps running

my 18v power tools were a savior and I bought at HD a hand held Ryobi air inflation pump
that saved the remaining KOI and GF with it's 18v Li batterys

Your girlfriend is inflatable?

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5 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Not really Kent - they are good for pruning duty, but, anything beyond that they will just frustrate you.  What kinda saw do you have?  If it's a "box store" brand - I wouldn't expect much from it.  I buy Stihl saws, and have had one since I was 14 - they aren't cheap, but, they work.  If ya want to meet me on this side of the Bay Bridge - I'd be happy to loan ya mine for a few weeks. 

THANKS!

I'll see what I can find on the island first :)

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4 hours ago, bplipschitz said:

Your girlfriend is inflatable?

the wife of 46 years is shrinking a bit of late

the gf was expanding after limiting her smoking and was dropped

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This is a drone overflight of the boatyards on the French side of the lagoon in St marten. What is clear is the number of broken masts suffered by boats both on land and in the water. 

\There are some flipped cats and some sunken boats but quite a number of powerboats seemed to have survived with minimal damage.

 

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1 hour ago, TQA said:

This is a drone overflight of the boatyards on the French side of the lagoon in St marten. What is clear is the number of broken masts suffered by boats both on land and in the water. 

\There are some flipped cats and some sunken boats but quite a number of powerboats seemed to have survived with minimal damage.

 

Yes I wonder why there are so many broken masts. Is it flying debris hitting the masts, the sheer strength of the wind alone or even some weird aeroelastic effects like the tacoma bridge on a smaller scale?

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1 minute ago, Panoramix said:

Yes I wonder why there are so many broken masts. Is it flying debris hitting the masts, the sheer strength of the wind alone or even some weird aeroelastic effects like the tacoma bridge on a smaller scale?

I wonder if it was boats rolling and snagging rigs.  

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27 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I wonder if it was boats rolling and snagging rigs.  

It looks to me those rigs were pulled and stored....otherwise there would be tangled rigging and twisted spars attached to each boat

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48 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Yes I wonder why there are so many broken masts. Is it flying debris hitting the masts, the sheer strength of the wind alone or even some weird aeroelastic effects like the tacoma bridge on a smaller scale?

Packed together as they are, the masts would topple like dominoes when one lets go.  What an expensive mess!

 

37 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

XPFKNCO.png

What tri might this be on the French side (Marigot) of St Martin?

This one at 2:53?

trimaran.jpg.a1c07bb991169b4bff6ba4a25b1740a3.jpg

Looks similar to an Antrim 40: http://antrimdesign.com/zephyr---antrim-40-trimaran.html

7493611.jpg.6bd6f60b46349c2e5c768ae1034a28ef.jpg

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That cat heeled over resting on the stack of boats is amazing. I noticed the fwd beam looks like it broke at the forestay fitting and folded up almost causing the mast to come down. This is the second Irma cat that I've seen this. I guess I better have a closer look at the forward crossbeam that I have designed for a 50' cat under construction now. Not a good sign when a beam that regularly takes huge sailing loads fails under just the windage of the spars. But with Cat 4 or 5 winds, anything can happen.

ebSbR2k.png

    I am still scratching my head over how this fwd beam broke! This is a GCY daycharter cat and instead of a seagull striker as a vertical compression post with a heavy 1x19 SS rigging wire to oppose the headstay loads, it was built up in wood/epoxy as a triangulated A-frame structure. The only failure of one of the that I am aware of was a cat that hit a bridge in Nassau. Not sure if the mast hitting the span was before the break or if the beam broke against a bridge piling, but the rig came down. Odd to see the tension member of the A-Frame truss still intact along with its one half of its vertical strut...

jkLzYfA.jpg

     Look at the right of the photo above and you can see the massive strapping and tang for the headsail roller which is still attached to the center section of the beam that looks like it broke right where the forward ends of the longitudinal compression posts that can be seen hanging down at a diagonal and are ripped right out of their mounting sockets in the fairing of the main crossbeam! This makes me think that on this boat the beach boarding ladder which is hinged at the aft end of the longitudinal compression posts somehow came loose at the block and tackles used to lower and raise it. If the ladder had dropped down into its beaching position it would have taken a real beating by waves rushing between the bows while on the mooring. I can imagine the vectors of such a scenario in which the lifting lugs at the intersection of the crossbeam member and the compression posts. No telling where the ladder is...

Look at the opening shot of the big silver motoryacht and I think I see another Gold Coast charter cat in the background dismasted. I've been calling the GCY phone every day since Maria but get a 'lines out of service' recording. If their shop is still in one piece, they are going to have a huge backlog of masts to replace. I imagine many of these damaged cats will switch to off the shelf aluminum fixed rigs due to the availability. Not that they did any better! At least you don't have to worry about a big wing mast getting the aero elastic 'flutters' which is the bane of long high aspect airfoils like you find on sailplanes.

Good example here

 

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Rasper

Any "bluff" body will shed vortices at a frequency proportional to the fluid velocity.  (Think keel hum but at a lower frequency)If  the frequency of the vortex shedding matched the natural frequency of the structure massive increases in vibration occur which lead to accelerated fatigue and ultimately failure. Is it possible at XXX MPH vortexes shed from the forestay got the forestay whipping which in turn excited the beams on the cats?. Do you guys ever consider the natural (resonant) frequencies of the parts and pieces?

 

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14 minutes ago, vibroman said:

Rasper

Any "bluff" body will shed vortices at a frequency proportional to the fluid velocity.  (Think keel hum but at a lower frequency)If  the frequency of the vortex shedding matched the natural frequency of the structure massive increases in vibration occur which lead to accelerated fatigue and ultimately failure. Is it possible at XXX MPH vortexes shed from the forestay got the forestay whipping which in turn excited the beams on the cats?. Do you guys ever consider the natural (resonant) frequencies of the parts and pieces?

 

I'm thinking something like this happened in many cases of the hurricane dismastings. 

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I'm thinking that the whole mast starts fluttering. I've seen it happen on occasion and the results on more occasions. A wing spar equipped cat that was nearly shaken to pieces when the wind was on the nose quieted right down after the eye passed and the new wind was on the trailing edge. Then the mast just stalled and didn't do any whipping back and forth. The mast rotator lines and blocks often are not up to the task on keeping a big aero wing spar from whipping about. If the fail then the rig just shakes itself to pieces. 

    Headsail foils can really get to dancing around too and I have seen guys take the jib halyard after dropping the furling sail and wind it around the furling extrusion like you see the spiral fence on tall chimneys. You also see the  spiral wrap on car antennaes to shed the Karmann vortices.

Image result for karmann vortice

Image result for karmann vortice fence

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5 hours ago, RKoch said:

Uh oh. Governor Scott got 4 calls for help from the nursing home, all 4 were deleted.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/florida-gov-scotts-office-deleted-all-4-calls-for-help-from-nursing-home-where-11-died-after-irma/

Not quite the whole story...

Quote

 

CBS Miami reported that when they contacted Scott’s office to obtain the voice mails, spokeswoman said, “The voicemails were not retained.”

Instead, she said, aides to the governor wrote down the information in the messages, then deleted them.

Natasha Anderson — a vice president with The Rehabilitation Center at Hollywood Hills, the facility where the patients died — said she was provided the governor’s cell phone number and instructed to call it if there was an emergency.

 

I can't believe it's that easy to get the Governor's cellphone number.

With millions of residents and thousands of nursing homes without power, getting a voicemail about a nursing home without power seems to me a little strange. Did he get similar messages from the thousands of other facilities facing the same problem? And if so, WTF are they doing giving his cellphone number to anyone and everyone?

I'm no fan of our Gov but he's done a good job with Irma and I'm not going to go with the company's line that the deaths are all his fault because the state didn't respond to the storm adequately. I think that a power outage at a nursing home is obviously dangerous to the residents and shouldn't really require a personal response from the Governor. Shouldn't even merit giving out his cellphone number. People who were a lot closer to the scene could have taken action to save those who were suffering and died without notifying the Governor, who was just a bit busy at the time.

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3 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Boats with CQRs stay put.

If they are tied to a couple of docks. Hanging from those CQR doorstops, not so much... I like CQR's as a riding weight ahead of a Danforth HT. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

If they are tied to a couple of docks. Hanging from those CQR doorstops, not so much... I like CQR's as a riding weight ahead of a Danforth HT. 

 

The consignment stores don't bother to bring them in for the night or lock em up.

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A couple of LHDs and other USN ships arriving soon if not already in San Jose and Ponce. USCG working to make sure channels are clear so they can get in.

Dam in NW has cracked and about to fail...mass evacuation in a few cities there.

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It is sad to hear that this intrepid soul who bailed from St John and headed South for calmer seas as IRMA approached the Virgins was found washed up on Tortola. No sign of the boat. The toll on the Islands will continue to mount. 

 

Image may contain: 1 person, ocean, text, outdoor and water
 
Time lapse from above Cane Garden Bay, Tortola. The passing of the eye is very evident before the final blast.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

It is sad to hear that this intrepid soul who bailed from St John and headed South for calmer seas as IRMA approached the Virgins was found washed up on Tortola. No sign of the boat. The toll on the Islands will continue to mount. 

 

Image may contain: 1 person, ocean, text, outdoor and water
 
Time lapse from above Cane Garden Bay, Tortola. The passing of the eye is very evident before the final blast.

 

 

Holy Shit!  That is the closest I ever want to get to the passing of an eye wall. Wow.

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4 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

It is sad to hear that this intrepid soul who bailed from St John and headed South for calmer seas as IRMA approached the Virgins was found washed up on Tortola. No sign of the boat. The toll on the Islands will continue to mount. 

 

Image may contain: 1 person, ocean, text, outdoor and water
 
Time lapse from above Cane Garden Bay, Tortola. The passing of the eye is very evident before the final blast.

 

 

Two thoughts:

1) Oh My God!!!!

2) How was the camera placed so as to keep running? That video will become a classic.

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Another video posted by the same person in a similar location. You can see people on the deck during the lull.

 

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38 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

Can anyone explain how palm trees that appear to have small root balls can survive such high winds without being uprooted??

palms are a  grass not trees

fiber but no wood

so they bend and seldom break

but they do go down some only 1/2 or 2/3 of the way and regrow if let be

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From what I've seen on the St John check in sites, Richard left alone on a 85' ketch but it seems his departure was 24 hours too late. I had some great times on that boat during the BVI Spring Regatta when it was often used as the 'mothership' for one of the more successful Tortola racing clans. 'Rushin Rowlette' was the race boat and was owned by the family that started the 'WILLY T', which was washed up on the shore by the storm as well. 

Image result for Goddess Athena sailboat

    If you planning on sailing out of range of a major storm, you better get a big head start! RIP

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I'm trying to figure out exactly when he left. I've seen reports that he left "the day of" - but since this was such a big storm I don't really know what that means.

There is also a FB post showing his boat at anchor and the poster said that this was "prior to the storm" but isn't clear on the date...

21557738_1635657843145083_37327055342755

The eye passed over on the 6th I believe, so if he left Wednesday morning his area was already in a hurricane...

IMG_4586.thumb_.PNG.4ec15e248f4631c8e346

So the timing just doesn't sound right, but I don't know.

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Nevermind - just found this...

Quote

I was waiting for word of Richard's return to St. John.
I knew he would have taken his beloved Goddess Athena to sea to get out of the way of Irma. 

A fellow mariner told stjohnnewspapermon there is a video of Richard taking Goddess Athena out of Coral Bay “two hours before the eye hit St. John.” 
Irma decimated the Fleet of boats sheltered in the well-known storm refuge.

“I thought it would not give him enough time,“ the fellow mariner, who lost his own vessel to Irma told stjohnnewspapermon. “Brave try.”

I thought Richard was invincible.

 

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9 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Can anyone explain how palm trees that appear to have small root balls can survive such high winds without being uprooted??

The same way the Lilliputians bound Gulliver. Those roots have an interior that's like wire if you try to snap it. The outside grabs the sand well. So, a whole bunch of well-anchored wires and a trunk that flexes and leaves/fronds that get shredded. Once the fronds are gone, you have a flexy but strong trunk anchored by a mass of wires.

I think I lost a palm in Irma. Looks like the top got severely twisted. That happened to a cabbage palm in Charlie and it died. Waiting to see what happens to this one. It's still standing straight and the damage is up high enough that I can't do anything about it.

 

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19 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

From what I've seen on the St John check in sites, Richard left alone on a 85' ketch but it seems his departure was 24 hours too late. I had some great times on that boat during the BVI Spring Regatta when it was often used as the 'mothership' for one of the more successful Tortola racing clans. 'Rushin Rowlette' was the race boat and was owned by the family that started the 'WILLY T', which was washed up on the shore by the storm as well. 

Image result for Goddess Athena sailboat

    If you planning on sailing out of range of a major storm, you better get a big head start! RIP

 

Very sad; but no boat or other physical object is worth dying over, for trying to save it......

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I had a great sail with Tom Scott today. Great guy. We had a blast...and he taught me a lot.

Oh, and we humiliated a Morgan 41 - literally sailing circles around it. And I don't even think the other guy was drunk!

Thanks for everything Tom! I'm glad Irma introduced us.

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22 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

The same way the Lilliputians bound Gulliver. Those roots have an interior that's like wire if you try to snap it. The outside grabs the sand well. So, a whole bunch of well-anchored wires and a trunk that flexes and leaves/fronds that get shredded. Once the fronds are gone, you have a flexy but strong trunk anchored by a mass of wires.

I think I lost a palm in Irma. Looks like the top got severely twisted. That happened to a cabbage palm in Charlie and it died. Waiting to see what happens to this one. It's still standing straight and the damage is up high enough that I can't do anything about it.

 

A friend of mine was out on the Monday after looking for down Royal Palms.  Apparantly they taste better than plain old Sabal Palm.

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12 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

I had a great sail with Tom Scott today. Great guy. We had a blast...and he taught me a lot.

Oh, and we humiliated a Morgan 41 - literally sailing circles around it. And I don't even think the other guy was drunk!

Thanks for everything Tom! I'm glad Irma introduced us.

Using a Morgan 41 as a mark is mean but funny. You win the Special Olympics of Sailing.

Tom Scott lives to sail and has his whole life. He can teach most people a thing or two about it.

12 hours ago, Fat Point Jack said:

A friend of mine was out on the Monday after looking for down Royal Palms.  Apparantly they taste better than plain old Sabal Palm.

Hmm... Winning the Special Olympics of Food. I have eaten some really good swamp cabbage prepared by a real redneck. And it's not that good. It's what you eat when you're out of other options, which is why almost no one eats them any more.

In other sorta Irma-related news, the lake is at 16.3 and it's raining. They say it's not a real problem until 18, which would take a heck of a lot of rain.

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The dugout canoe found in Cocoa after Irma most likely dates to mid 1600s...the wood that is. There are some 'modern' elements, like traces of paint and square cut nails, that are probably from later.

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On 9/6/2017 at 8:56 PM, shaggybaxter said:

Cyclone Larry memorial day up in North Qld in 2008; I was chatting to a bunch of survivors that took refuge in one gentlemen's storm shelter. this was a 40ft shipping container chained to massive concrete blocks sunk underground. He and all his neighbours where inside being bounced around like ping pong balls as the shipping container was being lifted off the ground from the  winds.

This showed up yesterday. Now I have to figure out how to tie it to the ground before curricane season. Gravity should work until then. It's for stuff, not people, but I want it to stay put.

shipcontain.jpg

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Am hearing that Bitter End Yacht Club may, or may not, be rebuilt due to an issue with the land lease which ends in a few years. Without an extension of the land lease, it may not be economically feasible to do the work.... What a shame!

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